As I sit here and try to come up with something wise and witty I realize that I could be here for a very long time.
When I decided to become a musician, specificaly guitar picker, I was 13 and wanted to be the best there ever was. Actually, I wanted to show off for all the world to see me. That came true to light as I progressed to different instruments. I would notice that a banjo player might be getting a little more notice, then later on, the fiddle player, etc. and I started learning these instruments in order to project myself, not the group or the music. I was playing for the wrong reasons.
I was being paid so I considered myself a professional when actually all I was was a guy sawing away on a fiddle trying to prove to the world that I was good fiddle player, when in fact, I was not.
Untill I started doing some soul searching as to why I was playing and who I was playing for that I learned what it ment to be a professional.
This may sound goofy, but untill I could be happy with the way I was playing and not feel bad because I was not as good as someone else my musical growth hit a wall.
Once I got beyond compairing myself and being jealous of other musicians talents I started growing again.
Instead of looking at somone as competition, I look at them as an inspiration. "What can I learn from this guy?"
Now I feel that I am a professional because I'm doing something I truly enjoy, even when there is no money or glory in it. (Which the money and glory are very few and far between)
I don't know if I just made any sense or not, but there it is.
It's nice getting to know you guys here at the session.
Excellent post, Tiny. I started at 33 (6 years ago) and I wanted to be good *fast* and felt bad every time I met someone who was way better (which was constantly of course). I'd go home, mentally beat myself up about it, practice till I was sore and get really cranky. I was so impressed with myself (for getting the chutzpah to start late, I guess) that I wanted everyone else to be impressed, too. But how could the be impressed if I sucked so bad? So, hmmm, that meant I had to stop sucking NOW! Geez, this sound silly all written down, but it's where I was mentally (13 yrs old!). That is the sort of thing that Zen Guitar helped with. I'm glad someone (McBear?) mentioned that book. My poor, long suffering husband found it and insisted I read it immediately. I'm feeling much more grown up now...*grin*
Tiny, we're glad you've joined us. Welcome to the fun! I enjoyed your web site too, especially (as a recovering banjo player) the joke page.
I'd add another step to your growth chart for musicians. I agree that it's healthy to look to others for inspiration, and you'll learn a lot by asking, "What can I learn from him/her?" But the next stage is just as accessible and even more fun (and you're no doubt already doing this, but maybe it'll strike a chord in others).
The next time you play with another person, ask yourself, "What can I do to enhance *our* music?"
This puts the emphasis on what you can *contribute* to the act of playing together, rather than what you might receive or take from it, and also tends to spur everyone to cooperate, to work as a team rather than as competitors or student/teacher, or antagonists in uncomfortably close proximity....
It sounds kinda obvious, but I've seen sessions nearly self destruct because too many people were coming to see what they could get out of it rather than discovering what they could give to it. And it works just like smiling. Give one and you almost always get one back. Play music *with* someone (instead of against or under or over them)--by following their volume and rhythm and melodic nuances, etc.--and they usually notice and start listening as attentively as you are. It's a wonderful way to communicate, and a great sense of *communing* with another person.
As for what makes a "professional," to me it's whether you get paid or not. The "pro" label doesn't necessarily say anything about quality of musicianship or attitude, just that you earn the bulk of your livelihood from playing music. Some pros are jaded, lazy, or worse, and many remain as passionate about what they do as the best amateurs. Some pros are weak players and some are true virtuosi. Some stagnate and some continue to explore and grow. And all the same holds true for the ranks of amateurs and recreational players.
I'm very happy to be an amateur, to have music as a form of genuine play. It helps me stay in that early frame of mind, where as a beginner I didn't know anything and so all possibilities were open.
The title "amateur" refers to somebody who does something for the love of it, in this case playing music. Some body who makes a living from playing music that they love is very fortunate, but this can be a double edged sword. Sometimes the pressure to play can ruin the enjoyment. It can turn a good amateur into a poor professional.
So, once again, it's all about attitude and time. If you have the attitude to play on call, and the time to develop the repertoire to support that, then it can be a personally rewarding career.
Perhaps we should be asking what is a good musician, rather than what is a professional musician. I think Will hit it when he says that it's more about contributing than taking.
But be nice to the professionals....you don't know the pressure they're under to turn a dollar in a cut-throat business....even in ITM. I remember a band called Clann Eadair, from my home town of Howth, Co. Dublin. They were wonderful musicians who almost hit the big time, but self destructed because the move to fully paid touring musician was more than most of them could handle.
So, be glad of your hobby and your 9 to 5...one balances the other!
I agree with most of the ideas already described, but please bear in mind the fact that professional musicians (I'm not) need to make a living out of playing. Therefore if we amateurs become good enough to do the same sort of entertaining that the pros do, we should not blindly undercut them by doing it for a "song" (pardon the pun) just because we enjoy doing it.
Cheers
Donough
Donough brought up an interesting point. Someone once pointed out to me that by playing for beer, we session players may be undercutting the bands in the area that charge for a gig. Bar/pub owners don't always care whether or not the music is great, as long as they don't have to pay much for it, it seems like. I have *never* heard anyone in a band suggest this but it sure made me stop and think. Anyway, the point this person was trying to make was that it might me better for us amateurs to have house sessions and leave the public venues to the "real" bands. Mind you, they aren't "professional" and some are downright bad. But they do charge for gigs! Any opinons on this? Has anyone encountered resentment that session players play for "free" and just for the enjoyment?
Haven't seen that at a session. There's a big difference between a session and a gig. Session players are playing for each other, gig players are playing for the bar. Session players can just drop in and stay as long or as short as they like. Gig players have to commit to be there at a certain time and play for as long as they are expected to play. Just two completely different things.
There is a problem in Toronto (well, a lot of places actually) where people do gigs for free, or pass a hat around the bar, which irritates some would-be professionals who can't seem to find a paying bar. Someone said to me these people are in a completely different business and pose no threat to the livelihood of *real* professionals who set a rate, and if you want them, that's what you'll pay.
My definition of a professional musician is simple. Someone who actively sets out to get money in exchange for playing music and succeeds is a professional. They are "in the music business". Doesn't have to be full-time, it just has to be treated with a professional attitude and executed as a business. Doesn't have to be full-time. Just because the owner of a swimming pool maintenance company has to paint houses in the off-season, does that mean swimming-pool maintenance is just a hobby?
I can't agree with your criteria, Sharron - I couldn't care less when Madonna's next CD comes out, and I have no desire to emulate her style but you can't argue that she's a pro. Many of my professional musician friends never made a CD, let alone sold one to a few friends, but they are full-time teachers, band members, session leaders and soloists. It's an insult to them to say they are amateurs.
Hey Chris -- nope, like Kerri, I've never seen it either. Sessions aren't performances, period. (Unless they're pseudo-sessions, ie: ones set up by bar owners for the tourists, of which there are an awful lot of in Ireland these days.) And the expectations on the musicians are, as Kerri points out, completely different.
I can sit here and talk about soooo many of the finest musicians still living now and now passed on who made their living some other way than playing. Ed Reavey, James Byrne, a host of others. It's only now with Irish trad so popular that any of them can even think about making a living at it. But they're as professional as you can imagine about their music and what it takes to make that music.
Hey Zina -- Yeah, it just never occurred to me that gigging bands might resent us. I've seen no indication that they do. Some musicians from the local bands will occasionally sit in with us. Unfortunately, this often turns one of our "sessions" into a "jam" . Or as someone referred to this sort of thing...a brawl. I left it last Friday with the obnoxious accordian player launching into "Folsom Prison Blues". Yes, he was even tactfully talked to the week before after the first go around. Hide like a rhinocerous. I think this particular session is deceased. BUT it wasn't as scary as the one with the 3 highland pipers!
Nope, sessions aren't performances and boy, does that confuse a lot of audience members. But that's ok, because it means some will come up and ask questions. My favorite was the kids coming and standing quietly behind me and then, after we'd stopped, asking about each instrument and what kind of music was that?
I'm sure all the old masters would be amazed at the popularity of Irish traditional music in the last few years or so. But I've often wondered how many of them would, even if given the chance, have wanted to make their living only with music. Or would they have felt that it was better to keep a "real" job. As Andy pointed out, not everyone can handle a touring life and the pressure of playing. And I get the impression that Irish musicians almost have to tour outside of Ireland to make enough money. Dunno if that's true or not. But truly, being a professional to me is more about showing up for gigs on time and well practised and the way you conduct the business end of things more than whether you are getting paid to play. See, I did come back to the point....eventually!
Stuff is fine out here, Zina. Spring is in the air....yea! And I got one of those "slow down without changing the pitch programs" so I'm having fun with that. How are things with you?
"Sessions aren't performances, period" = Zina
I'm afraid I can't agree with you on that. The primary purpose of the true session is not "performance" but most sessions in public places sit somewhere on the continuum between true session and performance.
Maybe it's a case of when the audience outnumber the players or whether the publican is benefitting in a financial way because of the music or whether he has any say in when you play or if he is offering some form of inducement. It could be some or all of these or other factors but it is not usually cut and dried unless a group of musicians get together in a house for a session with only a handful of friends coming along to listen.
I'm not necessarily saying that every session musician should try and get paid commercial rates (whatever that is) for playing in a pub session, but bear in mind that if the Publican can use your session to draw in the crowd on a REGULAR basis he may be able to save money on paying a professional group.
When we (Local branch of CCE) do a (pseudo)session in a pub, we get the publican to pay a reasonable donation to the organisation's coffers that then goes into promoting and teaching The Music.
Cheers
Donough
*grin* Well, Donough, seems like you talked yourself round to what I said -- pseudo-sessions are performances, and sessions aren't! But yeah, I do know what you mean about being in front of people who aren't musicians. Real sessions are still more for the musicians than they are for the audience, though, don't you think? Regardless of who's listening, if the musicians are doing whatever they want to do (including not play), then my vote is it's a session!
One of our local sessions in Boulder has this neat thing going where they collect the moneys that the pub pays them and puts it in a bank account kitty, and when trad concerts or musicians give workshops or whatever, the kitty helps subsidize it! Cool, huh?
Chris, it's almost time to start seeds for the garden! Only problem is that our last frost date here is May 15, and last year we had snow on the 25th of May or so, which just about toasted everything not particularly frost hardy... it was such a bummer!
About the only other thing is that I just got a very expensive embroidery machine! I'm going to be making stepdancing solo costumes for my dance school -- I can hardly wait to try it out!
It seems to me that a Professional Musician is a person who is willing to submit their musical services to a patron for remittance.
I consider myself a Professional Musician. I'm not famous and probably never will be. I play in public places for my own enjoyment, but as a professional I will not play "for" another person without the proper sum crossing my palm. I play for myself.
Scarier than realizing I was professional in what I did, was the day that one of the neighbor kids asked me if I was a musician and I said yes..
Donough. I'm afraid I agree with Zina, even though you have a point.
I think "professional musicians" are always ready to travel around and playing gigs in a regular basis. They have to do that for living out of music.
People like many of us, who play basically in sessions in our village,town or city, just look for a place near home to meet once a week, have a couple of drinks, play for a couple of hours and have some fun.
I myself play in a band. WE'RE NOT professionals. We don't want to do more than four gigs a month and rarely ever go out of town for a gig.
We asked 'our' publican for having a session every week, she didn't ask us. And we didn't ask for money or drinks either, although she kindly offered price reductions which we're very happy with.
Another publican asked us for having a weekly session in his pub. Just drinks, no money, no more than 7 players, and he wanted a commitment so every week at least four musicians had to show up. We refused. He was clearly trying to take benefit of the situation, and under that circumstances the "session" (performance from his point of view) wouldn't be fun.
So, there are publicans and publicans, and there are sessions and sessions. There might be room for professional players and sessions. We only have to avoid these bussines-minded publicans. Professional will take care of them.
That Boulder session has a really good idea. Maybe it's something our session could do. The promoter usually ends up losing money on the shows, so maybe we could help out. But after putting out a tip jar a couple of times we stopped cuz we felt weird about it. Seems like it edged it into "performance" and none of us liked that. Still, it's something to think about.
Zina, I imagine that gardening in Colorado must be a challenge, with the snow and frost. I pretty much gave up planting a garden after a couple of years fighting the huge chunks of slate and poor soil up in the foothills. Now, I'm in an apt. so it's potted stuff on the porch. Much easier!
When you get going with the embroidering you should put pics up on your web site. Those stepdancing outfits are gorgeous and they look like a ton of work. What a cool thing to do, though!
Hehehe...how about -- a professional musician cares enough about his or her music to work a day job in order to keep practising and wanting to beat his or her head against the walll at least once a month, and would jump up and down at the thought of being good enough in his or her own mind to make a living at it?
I'm being facetious, of course. Just thought I'd better add that. *grin*
I would love to be able to make a living at playing music. I've played part time for the last 18 years and made a bit of extra money at it.
Mostly I've had a great time and been able to see some things I would not normaly see, and take my family with me as well.
Ah, the family. Now there is a factor that stops the smart ones. I could do like some friends of mine have done, abandoned their spouse and kids to chase their dreams. Most are now divorced, broke, and no further than they were before.
I came close a while back, gone most every night and weekend. I caught myself playing music at the expense of loosing what means most to me.
I got a great wife, 5 fantastic kids, and I don't want to loose 'em. So, I try to include them in all I can and at times have had to learn how to say that terrible word, "No, but let me recommend you to someone." For me that's hard because I live to play music.
Actually, we're not that Scatter the Mud. (That would be nice, I know who you are talking about, they are great!)
Seems like there are a lot of bands out there with the same name. I've seen a few Banish Misfortunes, Some Non-such's, Even a couple of Pig Ankle's. Fortunatly everyone is scattered (No pun intended) a long was apart.
It's funny, we've played together off and on for years, but just in the last couple decided to get serious. Before getting with these guys I was with an old time string band called Prairie Land.
Tir na n'Og is a mouthfull! What does it mean? Sounds pretty neat.
Actually, there's apparently a lot of bands called tir na n'og too. Literallly it means "land of the young" or something. It's Irish - it is the land where nymphs and fairies come from
No, Land of the Young, as in, land of people who never age -- the Sidthe, in other words. When the Tuatha de Dannon were banished, they went underground into the hills and barrows, and that's where Tir na n'Og is. It's where in the stories people get taken and come back to find everyone they love dead and gone, because you don't age there and a day is like a year, or something like that.
Yea Zina! Tuatha de Dannon....People of the yogurt! Hee hee! Sorry, couldn't resist. Tuatha de Danann, I think it is, and Sidhe. Eh, never mind me, though. Irish folklore was an interest of mine before I ever attempted to play the music Part of the reason I like "Between the Jigs and Reels" so much is how it shows how the folklore is intertwined with the music!
Brian our guitar player picked the name. He has a good twenty years on me and the thought of ceasing to age appealed to him. ( We were all secretly very youthful.)
What is a professional musician?
What is a professional musician?
OK. I'll start the ball rolling.
Tiny
# Posted on February 19th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What is a professional musician?
Somebody who complains that he/she gets to play too much, and would rather be programming computers instead.
# Posted on February 19th 2002 by glauber
Re: What is a professional musician?
As I sit here and try to come up with something wise and witty I realize that I could be here for a very long time.
When I decided to become a musician, specificaly guitar picker, I was 13 and wanted to be the best there ever was. Actually, I wanted to show off for all the world to see me. That came true to light as I progressed to different instruments. I would notice that a banjo player might be getting a little more notice, then later on, the fiddle player, etc. and I started learning these instruments in order to project myself, not the group or the music. I was playing for the wrong reasons.
I was being paid so I considered myself a professional when actually all I was was a guy sawing away on a fiddle trying to prove to the world that I was good fiddle player, when in fact, I was not.
Untill I started doing some soul searching as to why I was playing and who I was playing for that I learned what it ment to be a professional.
This may sound goofy, but untill I could be happy with the way I was playing and not feel bad because I was not as good as someone else my musical growth hit a wall.
Once I got beyond compairing myself and being jealous of other musicians talents I started growing again.
Instead of looking at somone as competition, I look at them as an inspiration. "What can I learn from this guy?"
Now I feel that I am a professional because I'm doing something I truly enjoy, even when there is no money or glory in it. (Which the money and glory are very few and far between)
I don't know if I just made any sense or not, but there it is.
It's nice getting to know you guys here at the session.
Tiny
# Posted on February 19th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What is a professional musician?
...........And what Glauber said...........
# Posted on February 19th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What is a professional musician?
Excellent post, Tiny. I started at 33 (6 years ago) and I wanted to be good *fast* and felt bad every time I met someone who was way better (which was constantly of course). I'd go home, mentally beat myself up about it, practice till I was sore and get really cranky. I was so impressed with myself (for getting the chutzpah to start late, I guess) that I wanted everyone else to be impressed, too. But how could the be impressed if I sucked so bad? So, hmmm, that meant I had to stop sucking NOW! Geez, this sound silly all written down, but it's where I was mentally (13 yrs old!). That is the sort of thing that Zen Guitar helped with. I'm glad someone (McBear?) mentioned that book. My poor, long suffering husband found it and insisted I read it immediately. I'm feeling much more grown up now...*grin*
# Posted on February 19th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: What is a professional musician?
Tiny, we're glad you've joined us. Welcome to the fun! I enjoyed your web site too, especially (as a recovering banjo player) the joke page.
I'd add another step to your growth chart for musicians. I agree that it's healthy to look to others for inspiration, and you'll learn a lot by asking, "What can I learn from him/her?" But the next stage is just as accessible and even more fun (and you're no doubt already doing this, but maybe it'll strike a chord in others).
The next time you play with another person, ask yourself, "What can I do to enhance *our* music?"
This puts the emphasis on what you can *contribute* to the act of playing together, rather than what you might receive or take from it, and also tends to spur everyone to cooperate, to work as a team rather than as competitors or student/teacher, or antagonists in uncomfortably close proximity....
It sounds kinda obvious, but I've seen sessions nearly self destruct because too many people were coming to see what they could get out of it rather than discovering what they could give to it. And it works just like smiling. Give one and you almost always get one back. Play music *with* someone (instead of against or under or over them)--by following their volume and rhythm and melodic nuances, etc.--and they usually notice and start listening as attentively as you are. It's a wonderful way to communicate, and a great sense of *communing* with another person.
As for what makes a "professional," to me it's whether you get paid or not. The "pro" label doesn't necessarily say anything about quality of musicianship or attitude, just that you earn the bulk of your livelihood from playing music. Some pros are jaded, lazy, or worse, and many remain as passionate about what they do as the best amateurs. Some pros are weak players and some are true virtuosi. Some stagnate and some continue to explore and grow. And all the same holds true for the ranks of amateurs and recreational players.
I'm very happy to be an amateur, to have music as a form of genuine play. It helps me stay in that early frame of mind, where as a beginner I didn't know anything and so all possibilities were open.
Will
# Posted on February 19th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: What is a professional musician?
The title "amateur" refers to somebody who does something for the love of it, in this case playing music. Some body who makes a living from playing music that they love is very fortunate, but this can be a double edged sword. Sometimes the pressure to play can ruin the enjoyment. It can turn a good amateur into a poor professional.
So, once again, it's all about attitude and time. If you have the attitude to play on call, and the time to develop the repertoire to support that, then it can be a personally rewarding career.
Perhaps we should be asking what is a good musician, rather than what is a professional musician. I think Will hit it when he says that it's more about contributing than taking.
But be nice to the professionals....you don't know the pressure they're under to turn a dollar in a cut-throat business....even in ITM. I remember a band called Clann Eadair, from my home town of Howth, Co. Dublin. They were wonderful musicians who almost hit the big time, but self destructed because the move to fully paid touring musician was more than most of them could handle.
So, be glad of your hobby and your 9 to 5...one balances the other!
Andy
# Posted on February 19th 2002 by Mcbear365
Re: What is a professional musician?
Well, I thought about writing some stuff down, but you guys said it quite well without my adding it!
Will, you're always my hero.
Zina
# Posted on February 19th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: What is a professional musician?
I agree with most of the ideas already described, but please bear in mind the fact that professional musicians (I'm not) need to make a living out of playing. Therefore if we amateurs become good enough to do the same sort of entertaining that the pros do, we should not blindly undercut them by doing it for a "song" (pardon the pun) just because we enjoy doing it.
Cheers
Donough
# Posted on February 19th 2002 by Donough
Re: What is a professional musician?
"Real musicians have day jobs" is a phrase I heard the other day and got a good laugh out of. Mercy ain't it the truth.
# Posted on February 20th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What is a professional musician?
Donough brought up an interesting point. Someone once pointed out to me that by playing for beer, we session players may be undercutting the bands in the area that charge for a gig. Bar/pub owners don't always care whether or not the music is great, as long as they don't have to pay much for it, it seems like. I have *never* heard anyone in a band suggest this but it sure made me stop and think. Anyway, the point this person was trying to make was that it might me better for us amateurs to have house sessions and leave the public venues to the "real" bands. Mind you, they aren't "professional" and some are downright bad. But they do charge for gigs! Any opinons on this? Has anyone encountered resentment that session players play for "free" and just for the enjoyment?
# Posted on February 20th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: What is a professional musician?
Haven't seen that at a session. There's a big difference between a session and a gig. Session players are playing for each other, gig players are playing for the bar. Session players can just drop in and stay as long or as short as they like. Gig players have to commit to be there at a certain time and play for as long as they are expected to play. Just two completely different things.
There is a problem in Toronto (well, a lot of places actually) where people do gigs for free, or pass a hat around the bar, which irritates some would-be professionals who can't seem to find a paying bar. Someone said to me these people are in a completely different business and pose no threat to the livelihood of *real* professionals who set a rate, and if you want them, that's what you'll pay.
My definition of a professional musician is simple. Someone who actively sets out to get money in exchange for playing music and succeeds is a professional. They are "in the music business". Doesn't have to be full-time, it just has to be treated with a professional attitude and executed as a business. Doesn't have to be full-time. Just because the owner of a swimming pool maintenance company has to paint houses in the off-season, does that mean swimming-pool maintenance is just a hobby?
I can't agree with your criteria, Sharron - I couldn't care less when Madonna's next CD comes out, and I have no desire to emulate her style but you can't argue that she's a pro. Many of my professional musician friends never made a CD, let alone sold one to a few friends, but they are full-time teachers, band members, session leaders and soloists. It's an insult to them to say they are amateurs.
# Posted on February 20th 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: What is a professional musician?
Hey Chris -- nope, like Kerri, I've never seen it either. Sessions aren't performances, period. (Unless they're pseudo-sessions, ie: ones set up by bar owners for the tourists, of which there are an awful lot of in Ireland these days.) And the expectations on the musicians are, as Kerri points out, completely different.
I can sit here and talk about soooo many of the finest musicians still living now and now passed on who made their living some other way than playing. Ed Reavey, James Byrne, a host of others. It's only now with Irish trad so popular that any of them can even think about making a living at it. But they're as professional as you can imagine about their music and what it takes to make that music.
How's stuff out west, Christine?
Zina
# Posted on February 20th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: What is a professional musician?
A professional musician is someone who make a thier living from playing thier insrument.
# Posted on February 20th 2002 by barney morgan
Re: What is a professional musician?
Or is that instrument ?
# Posted on February 20th 2002 by barney morgan
Re: What is a professional musician?
Hey Zina -- Yeah, it just never occurred to me that gigging bands might resent us. I've seen no indication that they do. Some musicians from the local bands will occasionally sit in with us. Unfortunately, this often turns one of our "sessions" into a "jam" . Or as someone referred to this sort of thing...a brawl. I left it last Friday with the obnoxious accordian player launching into "Folsom Prison Blues". Yes, he was even tactfully talked to the week before after the first go around. Hide like a rhinocerous. I think this particular session is deceased. BUT it wasn't as scary as the one with the 3 highland pipers!
Nope, sessions aren't performances and boy, does that confuse a lot of audience members. But that's ok, because it means some will come up and ask questions. My favorite was the kids coming and standing quietly behind me and then, after we'd stopped, asking about each instrument and what kind of music was that?
I'm sure all the old masters would be amazed at the popularity of Irish traditional music in the last few years or so. But I've often wondered how many of them would, even if given the chance, have wanted to make their living only with music. Or would they have felt that it was better to keep a "real" job. As Andy pointed out, not everyone can handle a touring life and the pressure of playing. And I get the impression that Irish musicians almost have to tour outside of Ireland to make enough money. Dunno if that's true or not. But truly, being a professional to me is more about showing up for gigs on time and well practised and the way you conduct the business end of things more than whether you are getting paid to play. See, I did come back to the point....eventually!
Stuff is fine out here, Zina. Spring is in the air....yea! And I got one of those "slow down without changing the pitch programs" so I'm having fun with that. How are things with you?
# Posted on February 20th 2002 by soft black stars
Re: What is a professional musician?
"Sessions aren't performances, period" = Zina
I'm afraid I can't agree with you on that. The primary purpose of the true session is not "performance" but most sessions in public places sit somewhere on the continuum between true session and performance.
Maybe it's a case of when the audience outnumber the players or whether the publican is benefitting in a financial way because of the music or whether he has any say in when you play or if he is offering some form of inducement. It could be some or all of these or other factors but it is not usually cut and dried unless a group of musicians get together in a house for a session with only a handful of friends coming along to listen.
I'm not necessarily saying that every session musician should try and get paid commercial rates (whatever that is) for playing in a pub session, but bear in mind that if the Publican can use your session to draw in the crowd on a REGULAR basis he may be able to save money on paying a professional group.
When we (Local branch of CCE) do a (pseudo)session in a pub, we get the publican to pay a reasonable donation to the organisation's coffers that then goes into promoting and teaching The Music.
Cheers
Donough
# Posted on February 20th 2002 by Donough
Re: What is a professional musician?
*grin* Well, Donough, seems like you talked yourself round to what I said -- pseudo-sessions are performances, and sessions aren't!
But yeah, I do know what you mean about being in front of people who aren't musicians. Real sessions are still more for the musicians than they are for the audience, though, don't you think? Regardless of who's listening, if the musicians are doing whatever they want to do (including not play), then my vote is it's a session!
One of our local sessions in Boulder has this neat thing going where they collect the moneys that the pub pays them and puts it in a bank account kitty, and when trad concerts or musicians give workshops or whatever, the kitty helps subsidize it! Cool, huh?
Chris, it's almost time to start seeds for the garden! Only problem is that our last frost date here is May 15, and last year we had snow on the 25th of May or so, which just about toasted everything not particularly frost hardy... it was such a bummer!
About the only other thing is that I just got a very expensive embroidery machine! I'm going to be making stepdancing solo costumes for my dance school -- I can hardly wait to try it out!
Zina
# Posted on February 20th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: What is a professional musician?
It seems to me that a Professional Musician is a person who is willing to submit their musical services to a patron for remittance.
I consider myself a Professional Musician. I'm not famous and probably never will be. I play in public places for my own enjoyment, but as a professional I will not play "for" another person without the proper sum crossing my palm. I play for myself.
Scarier than realizing I was professional in what I did, was the day that one of the neighbor kids asked me if I was a musician and I said yes..
What do you think a musician is?
# Posted on February 20th 2002 by Piperhahn
Re: What is a professional musician?
Hey! A new discussion! What do you think a musician is? I'll fire it off.
# Posted on February 20th 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What is a professional musician?
Donough. I'm afraid I agree with Zina, even though you have a point.
I think "professional musicians" are always ready to travel around and playing gigs in a regular basis. They have to do that for living out of music.
People like many of us, who play basically in sessions in our village,town or city, just look for a place near home to meet once a week, have a couple of drinks, play for a couple of hours and have some fun.
I myself play in a band. WE'RE NOT professionals. We don't want to do more than four gigs a month and rarely ever go out of town for a gig.
We asked 'our' publican for having a session every week, she didn't ask us. And we didn't ask for money or drinks either, although she kindly offered price reductions which we're very happy with.
Another publican asked us for having a weekly session in his pub. Just drinks, no money, no more than 7 players, and he wanted a commitment so every week at least four musicians had to show up. We refused. He was clearly trying to take benefit of the situation, and under that circumstances the "session" (performance from his point of view) wouldn't be fun.
So, there are publicans and publicans, and there are sessions and sessions. There might be room for professional players and sessions. We only have to avoid these bussines-minded publicans. Professional will take care of them.
Toni.
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Toni Ribas
Re: What is a professional musician?
That Boulder session has a really good idea. Maybe it's something our session could do. The promoter usually ends up losing money on the shows, so maybe we could help out. But after putting out a tip jar a couple of times we stopped cuz we felt weird about it. Seems like it edged it into "performance" and none of us liked that. Still, it's something to think about.
Zina, I imagine that gardening in Colorado must be a challenge, with the snow and frost. I pretty much gave up planting a garden after a couple of years fighting the huge chunks of slate and poor soil up in the foothills. Now, I'm in an apt. so it's potted stuff on the porch. Much easier!
When you get going with the embroidering you should put pics up on your web site. Those stepdancing outfits are gorgeous and they look like a ton of work. What a cool thing to do, though!
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by soft black stars
Re: What is a professional musician?
Hehehe...how about -- a professional musician cares enough about his or her music to work a day job in order to keep practising and wanting to beat his or her head against the walll at least once a month, and would jump up and down at the thought of being good enough in his or her own mind to make a living at it?
I'm being facetious, of course. Just thought I'd better add that. *grin*
Zina
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: What is a professional musician?
Zina!!!!!!
You are so right!
Shame on you for saying what I was thinking!
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What is a professional musician?
Not my fault you got a dirty mind, Tiny. Heh.
Chris, let's just say that my other God is the God of Compost.
Zina
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: What is a professional musician?
I would love to be able to make a living at playing music. I've played part time for the last 18 years and made a bit of extra money at it.
Mostly I've had a great time and been able to see some things I would not normaly see, and take my family with me as well.
Ah, the family. Now there is a factor that stops the smart ones. I could do like some friends of mine have done, abandoned their spouse and kids to chase their dreams. Most are now divorced, broke, and no further than they were before.
I came close a while back, gone most every night and weekend. I caught myself playing music at the expense of loosing what means most to me.
I got a great wife, 5 fantastic kids, and I don't want to loose 'em. So, I try to include them in all I can and at times have had to learn how to say that terrible word, "No, but let me recommend you to someone." For me that's hard because I live to play music.
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What is a professional musician?
Heh Heh,
Funny you should say "Dirty Mind", the name of the band is "Scatter the Mud".
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What is a professional musician?
Scatter the Mud! No Kidding! I know you guys. Just moved here from Calgary myself - did you ever see, meet, hear of Tir na n'Og? That was my band.
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: What is a professional musician?
Actually, we're not that Scatter the Mud. (That would be nice, I know who you are talking about, they are great!)
Seems like there are a lot of bands out there with the same name. I've seen a few Banish Misfortunes, Some Non-such's, Even a couple of Pig Ankle's. Fortunatly everyone is scattered (No pun intended) a long was apart.
Our site is: http://www.geocities.com/scatterthemudband
It's funny, we've played together off and on for years, but just in the last couple decided to get serious. Before getting with these guys I was with an old time string band called Prairie Land.
Tir na n'Og is a mouthfull! What does it mean? Sounds pretty neat.
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What is a professional musician?
Actually, there's apparently a lot of bands called tir na n'og too. Literallly it means "land of the young" or something. It's Irish - it is the land where nymphs and fairies come from
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Kerri Brown
(Actually, I was wracking my brain to try to think which of those guys had 5 kids!)
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: What is a professional musician?
The old fat guy with the funny hat.
There is a better picture at:
http://www.geocities.com/flyinfiddler
I like that, "land of the Young".
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What is a professional musician?
No, Land of the Young, as in, land of people who never age -- the Sidthe, in other words. When the Tuatha de Dannon were banished, they went underground into the hills and barrows, and that's where Tir na n'Og is. It's where in the stories people get taken and come back to find everyone they love dead and gone, because you don't age there and a day is like a year, or something like that.
Zina
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: What is a professional musician?
Yea Zina! Tuatha de Dannon....People of the yogurt! Hee hee! Sorry, couldn't resist. Tuatha de Danann, I think it is, and Sidhe. Eh, never mind me, though. Irish folklore was an interest of mine before I ever attempted to play the music
Part of the reason I like "Between the Jigs and Reels" so much is how it shows how the folklore is intertwined with the music!
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by soft black stars
Re: What is a professional musician?
Whups, sorry, I was typing quickly before I had to run to a lesson I was teaching tonight, and didn't check my spelling!
zls
# Posted on February 21st 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: What is a professional musician?
Brian our guitar player picked the name. He has a good twenty years on me and the thought of ceasing to age appealed to him. ( We were all secretly very youthful.)
# Posted on February 22nd 2002 by Kerri Brown
Re: What is a professional musician?
Huh? Did I miss it? I thought I did say "Land of the young". I'm still trying to get used to my bi-focals.
# Posted on February 22nd 2002 by flyinfiddler
Re: What is a professional musician?
Yep. I missed it. I gotta pay more attention to these threads in who is saying what.
Sorry 'bout that.
Duh,,,,,which way did they go????
# Posted on February 22nd 2002 by flyinfiddler