Regional styles are like dialects, I agree, and like dialects are the result of geographical or social isolation. When that isolation is lessened, the regional differences begin to blur, and sometimes become extinct.
As someone pointed out, with the advent of recording, some of these regional styles actually spread far beyond their place of origin. In the process they become something separate from what they originally were, and when they fall into the hands of some fanatical folklorists, they become almost fetish objects, and any attempt to alter them is a sacrilege to their "defenders".
This discussion is part of that process, just as network television is part of the homogenizing of national languages at the expense of local and regional speech patterns. Is this a loss or a gain? I don't think there is a single answer to that.
I think an interesting point on that subject is the Sligo style fiddler's of the 1920's. Michael Coleman and Hugh Gilespie (sp?) were the first traditional Irish musicians to be recorded and sold to a mass market. Even then there were reports of a decline in regional styles due to Irish trad musicians of all regions attempting to emulate the American recordings of these Sligo masters.
However, in 2002, Sligo style is mainly out of vouge in the recording market, being usurped by the northern Irish and Scottish (and even Cape Breton) fiddlers. In the meantime, it seems that the modern Sligo trad players have moved away from their 1920s roots and have created yet another style altogether. *please reply if anyone has heard this difference*
Conclusion? Things change whether we want them to or not (as if the act of looking at the object changes it). If truth be known, the homogenization of the Irish trad dance music probably can mostly be blamed on the American (and London?) trad sessions than any other factor. To (heavily) paraphrase Cpt. Francis O'Neill, "nothing sounds worse than different styles of music attempting to combine in a session". Hence the rise of 'the session style'.
That being said, there certainly is a 'wrong' way to approach a tune, though defining it can get sticky but if you've listened to a violinist sight read music for a trad reel (or worse, a jig), you'll get the picture pretty quick.
Judging from Sligo players I've heard I don't think it's changed much. I guess Dervish's recording doesn't sound like Sligo music - but Sligo music doesn't sell nowadays so the record companies give people what they want to hear. This was true for Hughie Gillespie in his day - he's a Donegal man who dropped his music for what sells records at that point in time.
An interesting point relating to this: According to the highly gifted young fiddler Caoimhin O Raighallaigh (Sp?), Clare fiddler Padraig Kelly was taught by a certain Kerryman, who also taught many others of P.Kelly's generation, thus instilling his own Kerry style on a whole generation of Clare musicians. So what we now know as Clare fiddling is partly a local adaptation of the Kerry style. I am no diligent historian, so I am not sure of the timescale, but I would guess that this would have taken place in the early decades of C20th. Correct me if I'm wrong, and feel free toexpoungd with greater wisdom on this subject.
For flute players, Sligo style means playing with a lot of rhytmical pulse, like, for example, Seamus Tansey does. Kind of a rough and brutal style, with a lot of energy.
Homogenization of the individual styles within Irish music are most apparent outside the country. You will still find strong local styles among platers who stay close to home and play regular sessions with the same groups of friends. Within these groups, there is a learning process, the handing down of phrasing and intonation, that changes very slightly, usually in a cyclical manner spanning about three generations - old to new to modern, back to old, that's what I mean - and this serves to keep the music healthy and alive within its own region.
When musicians move out of that region, they will influence, and be influenced by, the other musical styles around them.
Anybody who truly wants to dedicate themselves to the development of one or two styles has little choice but to spend time in the region and immerse themselves fully in the local musical heritage. This is very prevelant in classic guitar style. The regional dialects of anchor players draw students into a region and help maintain the culture in this way.
Dialectic styles are healthy within the overall music, just as the world style is healthy for presenting the music to a global audience. The music is still defined by the people who play it.
Hmmm! Immersion...dialects...JUST like learning a spoken language. That makes all the sense in the world to me. I've always felt that there is a strong correlation between the two.
In addition to music being learned best by immersion to learn the "dialect", I have seen over and over again the differences in my foreign language students. Those who play a musical instrument also excel at language acquisition. (And they pick up my non-native ACCENT so quickly, yipes!)
I've noticed big stylistic variations between Boston, NY & Philly, each one of those cities has it's own tunes, settings & paces. "They play that way in Boston" & "A big New York tune" are both phrases that refer to styles. I guess my point is that even though the world is getting smaller I only leave my home for two weeks a year at best (so I don't play with too many people outside of New England often, recordings are a way to find out whats happening & get new tunes; but not enough to endanger any styles. I don't think styles in ITM is in any real danger of being completely wiped out. As long as people are playing the tunes in sessions with local folks regional styles will always be around. Whether it's West Clare, Melbourne Australia, or any place else.
Re: The Dialectic of Styles
Re: The Dialectic of Styles
Regional styles are like dialects, I agree, and like dialects are the result of geographical or social isolation. When that isolation is lessened, the regional differences begin to blur, and sometimes become extinct.
As someone pointed out, with the advent of recording, some of these regional styles actually spread far beyond their place of origin. In the process they become something separate from what they originally were, and when they fall into the hands of some fanatical folklorists, they become almost fetish objects, and any attempt to alter them is a sacrilege to their "defenders".
This discussion is part of that process, just as network television is part of the homogenizing of national languages at the expense of local and regional speech patterns. Is this a loss or a gain? I don't think there is a single answer to that.
# Posted on February 12th 2002 by Dave McGrath
Re: Re: The Dialectic of Styles
I think an interesting point on that subject is the Sligo style fiddler's of the 1920's. Michael Coleman and Hugh Gilespie (sp?) were the first traditional Irish musicians to be recorded and sold to a mass market. Even then there were reports of a decline in regional styles due to Irish trad musicians of all regions attempting to emulate the American recordings of these Sligo masters.
However, in 2002, Sligo style is mainly out of vouge in the recording market, being usurped by the northern Irish and Scottish (and even Cape Breton) fiddlers. In the meantime, it seems that the modern Sligo trad players have moved away from their 1920s roots and have created yet another style altogether. *please reply if anyone has heard this difference*
Conclusion? Things change whether we want them to or not (as if the act of looking at the object changes it). If truth be known, the homogenization of the Irish trad dance music probably can mostly be blamed on the American (and London?) trad sessions than any other factor. To (heavily) paraphrase Cpt. Francis O'Neill, "nothing sounds worse than different styles of music attempting to combine in a session". Hence the rise of 'the session style'.
That being said, there certainly is a 'wrong' way to approach a tune, though defining it can get sticky but if you've listened to a violinist sight read music for a trad reel (or worse, a jig), you'll get the picture pretty quick.
Now, off to practice!
# Posted on February 12th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: Re: The Dialectic of Styles
Judging from Sligo players I've heard I don't think it's changed much. I guess Dervish's recording doesn't sound like Sligo music - but Sligo music doesn't sell nowadays so the record companies give people what they want to hear. This was true for Hughie Gillespie in his day - he's a Donegal man who dropped his music for what sells records at that point in time.
# Posted on February 12th 2002 by Mad Baloney
Re: Re: The Dialectic of Styles
An interesting point relating to this: According to the highly gifted young fiddler Caoimhin O Raighallaigh (Sp?), Clare fiddler Padraig Kelly was taught by a certain Kerryman, who also taught many others of P.Kelly's generation, thus instilling his own Kerry style on a whole generation of Clare musicians. So what we now know as Clare fiddling is partly a local adaptation of the Kerry style. I am no diligent historian, so I am not sure of the timescale, but I would guess that this would have taken place in the early decades of C20th. Correct me if I'm wrong, and feel free toexpoungd with greater wisdom on this subject.
# Posted on February 13th 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Re: The Dialectic of Styles
Hm. Would that have been East Clare or West, d'you suppose? They're very different. Perhaps this is part of the reason why.
Zina
# Posted on February 13th 2002 by Zina Lee
Sligo style
For flute players, Sligo style means playing with a lot of rhytmical pulse, like, for example, Seamus Tansey does. Kind of a rough and brutal style, with a lot of energy.
# Posted on February 13th 2002 by glauber
Re: Re: The Dialectic of Styles
Homogenization of the individual styles within Irish music are most apparent outside the country. You will still find strong local styles among platers who stay close to home and play regular sessions with the same groups of friends. Within these groups, there is a learning process, the handing down of phrasing and intonation, that changes very slightly, usually in a cyclical manner spanning about three generations - old to new to modern, back to old, that's what I mean - and this serves to keep the music healthy and alive within its own region.
When musicians move out of that region, they will influence, and be influenced by, the other musical styles around them.
Anybody who truly wants to dedicate themselves to the development of one or two styles has little choice but to spend time in the region and immerse themselves fully in the local musical heritage. This is very prevelant in classic guitar style. The regional dialects of anchor players draw students into a region and help maintain the culture in this way.
Dialectic styles are healthy within the overall music, just as the world style is healthy for presenting the music to a global audience. The music is still defined by the people who play it.
# Posted on February 13th 2002 by Mcbear365
Re: Re: The Dialectic of Styles
Mad,
ing nobody would call me on the Hugh Gillespie thing. Ha, got caught! Great post by Mcbear365.
# Posted on February 13th 2002 by Caoimghgin
Re: Re: The Dialectic of Styles
Hmmm! Immersion...dialects...JUST like learning a spoken language. That makes all the sense in the world to me. I've always felt that there is a strong correlation between the two.
In addition to music being learned best by immersion to learn the "dialect", I have seen over and over again the differences in my foreign language students. Those who play a musical instrument also excel at language acquisition. (And they pick up my non-native ACCENT so quickly, yipes!)
# Posted on February 13th 2002 by linda
Re: Re: The Dialectic of Styles
I've noticed big stylistic variations between Boston, NY & Philly, each one of those cities has it's own tunes, settings & paces. "They play that way in Boston" & "A big New York tune" are both phrases that refer to styles. I guess my point is that even though the world is getting smaller I only leave my home for two weeks a year at best (so I don't play with too many people outside of New England often, recordings are a way to find out whats happening & get new tunes; but not enough to endanger any styles. I don't think styles in ITM is in any real danger of being completely wiped out. As long as people are playing the tunes in sessions with local folks regional styles will always be around. Whether it's West Clare, Melbourne Australia, or any place else.
# Posted on February 14th 2002 by Mad Baloney