In a previous thread re-mandolin volume stewpot mentioned the practice of tuning the two strings of each course slightly differently. Nobody picked this subject up, so I tought I would start a new thread.
Does anyone else use this practice, what is the effect?
Some free reed manufacturers use this to produce a tremolo effect when there are two or more sets of reeds and they are said to have swing tuning or wet tuning.
I have never heard of this being applied to mandos/zooks etc. they're hard enough to tune anyway.
When I tune it usually does not come out exactly right so there is a certain amount of "swing" it gives an interesting sound but be sure to keep it to 20 cents at max other wise it gets bad.
I have experimented with 'wet' tuning on mandolin. It is interesting - it makes it sound like an accordion. But I find that with the short decay time of a mandolin, the effect is lost. To me, the mandolin sounds strongest when the pairs are tuned in perfect unison (or near as dammit) - particularly important for an instrument which often struggles to be heard in a session.
... I've also tried tuning pairs in semitones, 2nds, 3rds, 4ths, tritones (augmented 4ths), 5ths, you name it. The results can be *interesting*, but such experiments are best kept within the confines of one's own bedroom - and a safe distance from the nearest clinical psychologist.
... Sorry, forgot. One thing I haven't tried, because it would require some re-stringing, but have been told is worth trying, is tuning the G and D strings in octaves, a la 12-string guitar. You could probably use the same gauges as your E and A strings for the octave strings.
Dont't agree withyou David, if the two sets of strings are tuned perfectly in unison ,you get a quiter sonding mandolin Oh and thankyou rosenun, for restarting the disscusion. Stewpot.
I bought a video showing you how to play bluegrass mandolin like Bill Monroe, and it demonstrates how to detune the two sets of strings to each other to produce a "bluesy" feeling to the notes .Forget how it was done exactly, but if anyone wants to know I'll find out the exact details
This is sometimes done in bluegrass. I think Ricky Skaggs does it when he plays "get up john".
If you like the slightly off-tuning, try replacing you tuning maschines with some old cheap worn-down ones. This will get you too frustrated to keep tuning.
On The Boy's Of the Lough's album, "Good Friends,Good Music",there was an American mandolin player whose name escapes me.He used a split string technique,i.e,playing two different notes on the adjacent unison strings.I tried and found it almost immpossible.
I´ve got the album in front of me, David, but there´s no mention of Mairtin O´Connor. You might be thinking of accordeon player Tony McMahon who is on one track.
The album came with an informative little booklet which says that mandolin player Kenny Hall was from northern California. He was blind from birth and plays the mandolin "in an unusual way by using the soft fleshy part of the finger (not the tip) to play melody notes". He has recorded for the Philo and Bay labels.
Stewpot - I suppose you are right. If the strings are identically tuned, destructive interference can occur due to the strings vibrating in opposing phases. But surely, unless your timing is accurate to the millisecond, constructive interference is just as likely to occur. If they are slightly out of tune with one another, it at least ensures that constructive interference will occur at certain points (beats). Probably, what I regard as perfectly in tune is not really (Incidentally, a healthy human ear is better at tuning in unison than most electronic tuners). But, at least, I like my string pairs to be tuned close enough that a beat pattern is not noticeable, and that there is no appreciable ambiguity in pitch.
i used to play the ocasional tune with kenny hall when i was just starting on the mandolin. he was a great man, loved his beer and apple pie, also would yell hooray for ireland after an especially good tune or after several beers, married a lovely irish maid. don't know if he's still around or not. the only person i ever knew who played a tater bug mandolin exclusively. i don't think he intentionally untuned it.
Its a Fylde Touchstone. Superb volume and projection - but also a really nice sound. Several or eightal mandolist I play with have remarked that it is both the nicest sounding and the loudest mandolin they have ever encountered.
Having a Magnificent Beard might be helping - I'm not certain.
Yes I keep hearing the name flyde touchstone, I'' m going to have to have a play on one , cause the one Iv'e got ( its an old Kay) is alright, but Iv'e reached a stage now where I deserve something better.Its my birthday next Monday . . . mmm.
Its possible you keep hearing it cos I keep mentioning it. I looked at all sorts of mandolins last year - some prices up to 5000 UK pounds (which is around 8000 US dollar - but then I wouldn't need to put the conversion in if your profile told us which country you are calling from Stewpot!), and the Fylde Touchstone I bought (it's the only one of that model I tried) has a better sound in all respects than any other mandolin that I tried, at any price. One other came close, but was about 50percent more in price.
The very expensive ones tended to be the ones where appearance had taken precedence over sound - real gold on the machine heads doesn't add to the sound, and neither does the fact that the wood was part of the bog seat on the Admiral Rodney (or the USS Maine - see note above about putting something in your profile), it just lets people know you are pretentious.
I live in the north of England Dave, near a place called Sheffield, in Yorkshire, Robin Hood country, ever heard of him ? Yes I would love to try your mandolin out . . . . just send my return plane tickets to the following address . . . * * * * * * *! ! !
Plane tickets? Dave's hardly more than an afternoon stroll away from yer. Plane tickets. Ha. When I was a lad, I had to walk 500km to school every morning, across blistering desert while fending off rambunctious rhino, cheeky hyena and starving lions. Plane tickets. Pfah.
All joking a side, there's a shop 20 miles from where I live that sells Touchstones, so I,m going today, now, to check one out.They are selling for 550 pounds over here. Just hope the wife doesn't find out too early I'm spending all this money !!
By the way as well , with the exchange dollar/pound rate being what it is, my 1 pound is equivalant to 1 dollar 82 cents, its not been as good as that for us the British for years to import from America. I might consider buying from you Yanks, ( You don't mind being called a Yank do you?) Stewart.
HOW STUPID CAN ONE GET!! sorry dave I thought you were Ameican for some reason!! Should have looked in your profile first. And my apoligies to all our American friends and allies!!
Yes, I'm on going to Cleckhaeton , The Music Room this afternoon to have a look.
Yes i've been to Macclesfield loads of times, I was courting my present wife and she lived in Congleton so I had to pass thru Macc. to see here. My son was born in Macclesfield.
Q I know how you feel. Tomorrow I have to teach. I have to walk across a blistering red dustbowl to get to school too, fending off kangaroos, deadly snakes and spiders, but worst of all... drop bears. I'll be okay if I avoid walking underneath that single skeletal gum tree.
I don't think anyone has ever thought I was american before.
Over the years I've been mistaken for English, Arab, Jewish, French, Scots, Spanish, Australian, (and an Irish terrorist on one occasion) - but never american.
Swing tuning mandolin
Swing tuning mandolin
In a previous thread re-mandolin volume stewpot mentioned the practice of tuning the two strings of each course slightly differently. Nobody picked this subject up, so I tought I would start a new thread.
Does anyone else use this practice, what is the effect?
Some free reed manufacturers use this to produce a tremolo effect when there are two or more sets of reeds and they are said to have swing tuning or wet tuning.
I have never heard of this being applied to mandos/zooks etc. they're hard enough to tune anyway.
Any comments?
John.
# Posted on April 16th 2004 by rosenun
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
When I tune it usually does not come out exactly right so there is a certain amount of "swing" it gives an interesting sound but be sure to keep it to 20 cents at max other wise it gets bad.
# Posted on April 16th 2004 by Why Bother?
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
I have experimented with 'wet' tuning on mandolin. It is interesting - it makes it sound like an accordion. But I find that with the short decay time of a mandolin, the effect is lost. To me, the mandolin sounds strongest when the pairs are tuned in perfect unison (or near as dammit) - particularly important for an instrument which often struggles to be heard in a session.
# Posted on April 16th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
... I've also tried tuning pairs in semitones, 2nds, 3rds, 4ths, tritones (augmented 4ths), 5ths, you name it. The results can be *interesting*, but such experiments are best kept within the confines of one's own bedroom - and a safe distance from the nearest clinical psychologist.
# Posted on April 16th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
... Sorry, forgot. One thing I haven't tried, because it would require some re-stringing, but have been told is worth trying, is tuning the G and D strings in octaves, a la 12-string guitar. You could probably use the same gauges as your E and A strings for the octave strings.
# Posted on April 16th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
And one string in each pair could be tuned a 1/4 of a tone flat. Then you'll have access to the microtone music of Haba
Trevor
# Posted on April 16th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
Dont't agree withyou David, if the two sets of strings are tuned perfectly in unison ,you get a quiter sonding mandolin Oh and thankyou rosenun, for restarting the disscusion. Stewpot.
# Posted on April 16th 2004 by Justintime
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
I bought a video showing you how to play bluegrass mandolin like Bill Monroe, and it demonstrates how to detune the two sets of strings to each other to produce a "bluesy" feeling to the notes .Forget how it was done exactly, but if anyone wants to know I'll find out the exact details
# Posted on April 16th 2004 by Justintime
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
This is sometimes done in bluegrass. I think Ricky Skaggs does it when he plays "get up john".
If you like the slightly off-tuning, try replacing you tuning maschines with some old cheap worn-down ones. This will get you too frustrated to keep tuning.
Lars.
# Posted on April 16th 2004 by Larshansen
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
On The Boy's Of the Lough's album, "Good Friends,Good Music",there was an American mandolin player whose name escapes me.He used a split string technique,i.e,playing two different notes on the adjacent unison strings.I tried and found it almost immpossible.
# Posted on March 1st 2003 by dafydd
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
The American mandolin player was Kenny Hall on a couple of tracks. The rest of the mandolin playing was by Dave Richardson.
# Posted on April 17th 2004 by murfbox
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
Thanks for the info.It's a good album.Mairtin O'Connor was on it too,if memory serves.
# Posted on March 1st 2003 by dafydd
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
I´ve got the album in front of me, David, but there´s no mention of Mairtin O´Connor. You might be thinking of accordeon player Tony McMahon who is on one track.
The album came with an informative little booklet which says that mandolin player Kenny Hall was from northern California. He was blind from birth and plays the mandolin "in an unusual way by using the soft fleshy part of the finger (not the tip) to play melody notes". He has recorded for the Philo and Bay labels.
# Posted on April 17th 2004 by murfbox
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
Stewpot - I suppose you are right. If the strings are identically tuned, destructive interference can occur due to the strings vibrating in opposing phases. But surely, unless your timing is accurate to the millisecond, constructive interference is just as likely to occur. If they are slightly out of tune with one another, it at least ensures that constructive interference will occur at certain points (beats). Probably, what I regard as perfectly in tune is not really (Incidentally, a healthy human ear is better at tuning in unison than most electronic tuners). But, at least, I like my string pairs to be tuned close enough that a beat pattern is not noticeable, and that there is no appreciable ambiguity in pitch.
# Posted on April 17th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
Your'e getting a bit too technical for me David. Its about time I was in the pub!
# Posted on April 17th 2004 by Justintime
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
Thanks for the reply,murfbox.I had the album on a cassette,which I lost years ago.Mairtin O'Connor was probably on the album "Open Road".
# Posted on March 1st 2003 by dafydd
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
...I could be talking a load of walnuts, for all you know... for all I know.
# Posted on April 18th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
i used to play the ocasional tune with kenny hall when i was just starting on the mandolin. he was a great man, loved his beer and apple pie, also would yell hooray for ireland after an especially good tune or after several beers, married a lovely irish maid. don't know if he's still around or not. the only person i ever knew who played a tater bug mandolin exclusively. i don't think he intentionally untuned it.
# Posted on April 18th 2004 by Dont
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
The old Swing tuning thing depends on the individual instrument.
I used to use it to great effect on a little mandolin I used to play.
Then I bought a loud mandolin - which I now tune to dead unison.
# Posted on April 18th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
You say youv'e now got a loud mandolin . . . what sort is it?
# Posted on April 18th 2004 by Justintime
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
Its a Fylde Touchstone. Superb volume and projection - but also a really nice sound. Several or eightal mandolist I play with have remarked that it is both the nicest sounding and the loudest mandolin they have ever encountered.
Having a Magnificent Beard might be helping - I'm not certain.
Dave
# Posted on April 18th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
No! Dammit! I AM certain!
Having a Magnificent Beard makes a mandolin sound better.
Also, a big bloke with a Magnificent Beard is less likely to have people suggest that a mandolin is a bit of a girly instrument.
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
You can't be the "only gay in the village" and have a "magnificent beard" too, Dave.
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by John J.
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
*splorf*
Somebody's been watching 'Little Britain', then?
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by Q
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
Yep and Dave had come out with the same quote in a thread last week.
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by John J.
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
Dave had what?
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
LOL. Sorry. I didn't mean "had come out" in that sense. You'll remember that I've always got into trouble with the wording of my posts.
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by John J.
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
Oh dear.
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
Yes I keep hearing the name flyde touchstone, I'' m going to have to have a play on one , cause the one Iv'e got ( its an old Kay) is alright, but Iv'e reached a stage now where I deserve something better.Its my birthday next Monday . . . mmm.
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by Justintime
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
Its possible you keep hearing it cos I keep mentioning it. I looked at all sorts of mandolins last year - some prices up to 5000 UK pounds (which is around 8000 US dollar - but then I wouldn't need to put the conversion in if your profile told us which country you are calling from Stewpot!), and the Fylde Touchstone I bought (it's the only one of that model I tried) has a better sound in all respects than any other mandolin that I tried, at any price. One other came close, but was about 50percent more in price.
The very expensive ones tended to be the ones where appearance had taken precedence over sound - real gold on the machine heads doesn't add to the sound, and neither does the fact that the wood was part of the bog seat on the Admiral Rodney (or the USS Maine - see note above about putting something in your profile), it just lets people know you are pretentious.
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
Stewpot - further to the above - if you live near me you can come and try mine.
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
I live in the north of England Dave, near a place called Sheffield, in Yorkshire, Robin Hood country, ever heard of him ? Yes I would love to try your mandolin out . . . . just send my return plane tickets to the following address . . . * * * * * * *! ! !
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by Justintime
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
Plane tickets? Dave's hardly more than an afternoon stroll away from yer. Plane tickets. Ha. When I was a lad, I had to walk 500km to school every morning, across blistering desert while fending off rambunctious rhino, cheeky hyena and starving lions. Plane tickets. Pfah.
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by Q
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
All joking a side, there's a shop 20 miles from where I live that sells Touchstones, so I,m going today, now, to check one out.They are selling for 550 pounds over here. Just hope the wife doesn't find out too early I'm spending all this money !!
By the way as well , with the exchange dollar/pound rate being what it is, my 1 pound is equivalant to 1 dollar 82 cents, its not been as good as that for us the British for years to import from America. I might consider buying from you Yanks, ( You don't mind being called a Yank do you?) Stewart.
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by Justintime
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
HOW STUPID CAN ONE GET!! sorry dave I thought you were Ameican for some reason!! Should have looked in your profile first. And my apoligies to all our American friends and allies!!
Yes, I'm on going to Cleckhaeton , The Music Room this afternoon to have a look.
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by Justintime
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
Yes i've been to Macclesfield loads of times, I was courting my present wife and she lived in Congleton so I had to pass thru Macc. to see here. My son was born in Macclesfield.
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by Justintime
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
Q I know how you feel. Tomorrow I have to teach. I have to walk across a blistering red dustbowl to get to school too, fending off kangaroos, deadly snakes and spiders, but worst of all... drop bears. I'll be okay if I avoid walking underneath that single skeletal gum tree.
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
Your so funny Dow
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by bb
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
Why they insist on putting schools in such hard to reach places, I'll never know.
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by Q
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
It's to try and keep the students away. That's what the teachers want.
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
Sorry, yes, swing tuning mandolin. Hate it. If the 2 strings of each course aren't perfectly in tune it bugs the hell out of me.
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by Dr. Dow
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
I don't think anyone has ever thought I was american before.
Over the years I've been mistaken for English, Arab, Jewish, French, Scots, Spanish, Australian, (and an Irish terrorist on one occasion) - but never american.
# Posted on April 19th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
Prolly the twang in your playing that confuses people, Dave.
# Posted on April 20th 2004 by Q
Re: Swing tuning mandolin
I see you haven't put anything in your profile yet Stew!
# Posted on April 20th 2004 by showaddydadito