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Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Okay, where are you, all you guitar and bodhran players? *grin* Mayo Comhaltas secretary, Seamus O Dubhthaigh (Duffy) is on the warpath again (last time it was wigs and makeup on the dancers), and this time he wants to see you tossed out of sessions everywhere! He, as usual, blames the Americans. Where's he been when everyone else here is accusing the Yanks of being ultra-purist to the max and far too stuffy to be left alive?
Quoted by Michael Commins of Western People, he says, "I am often amazed and also annoyed by music artistes and radio presenters who introduce various recordings of Irish music as being traditional. In fact, the latter adjective must be the most abused, relative to Irish music, that exists. By its very nature, Irish traditional music is a folk music, simple and uncomplicated. Unfortunately, in many modern recordings we get elements which are not within the tradition such as lavish attempts at arrangements, in some cases overtures, with a callithumpian concert of guitars, bodhrans and basoukis in the background - instruments of low or no musical quality which tend to obscure and distract from the central artiste. This feature of the recording business seems to worsen on an annual basis. I can assure all and sundry that this is not an Irish influence but a commercial one, and largely American."
""While Seamus says guitars are fine in "country music, the Beatles and pop where they have their own place", they are a 'no go' in the traditional stakes here at home."
"Today, we find ourselves in a situation where, in some instances, the accompaniment dominates to such an extinct that it drowns the central artiste but in all cases distracts attention from the artiste, all in the name of progress but aimed at commercialism.
"I believe guitar and bodhran players who operate in traditional circles are people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes. Noise is substituted for actual music. These instruments add nothing to our music but take a lot from it. A pertinent question should be - can we allow conscious commercialism to destroy a most important element of a nation's culture?," asks Seamus.
Any guitar or bodhran players, or anyone with an opinion on the matters raised above, are welcome to respond to the views expressed by Seamus Duffy. Letters can be posted to Michael Commins, 'Diary Page', Western People, Claremorris, Mayo or e-mailed to mcummins@wpeople.iol.ie"
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Blame Planxty and the Chieftains etc. Leave us Yanks out of it. hahahaha Actually, wasn't Sweeney's Men one of the first instances of ITM with guitars, bouzoukis, etc. "in the background" on a recording? And what about Cristy Moore's recording, "Prosporous"? Wow, imagine if it was the fault of the Yanks... naw, we're just copying what the Irish do. hahahaha You'd think Seamus and Michael are living in a cave somewhere the way they go on. They're convoluted logic and twisted facts remind me of a certain US president. *ahem*
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
OK. Before I begin here, I want you to realize that all this is coming from someone who is still learning a lot about traditional music, so tell if I'm saying something stupid.
"can we allow conscious commercialism to destroy a most important element of a nation's culture"
What are they going to do about it? What CAN they do about it?
I like guitars, bodhrans and bouzoukis. What's wrong with adding something new to the tradition? It can't stay the same forever. I mean, you shouldn't be totally radical, and change everything, but some change is OK, right? I don't think that it detracts from the music, I think it adds something to it that it didn't have before. Of course, these people have been living a lot longer than me, so they actually saw the change take place. Maybe that's what's bugging them. I am growing up in an age where guitars, bodhrans and bouzoukis are used quite often in Irish music, it isn't anything new for me. They are probably howling because they liked it, and it was changed. I mean, didn't guitars and bouzoukis emerge in the early 70s, with bands like the Bothy Band, Sweeney's Men and Planxty?
But what about bodhrans? They're not a new thing are they? Haven't they been played for years? And unlike giutars and bouzoukis, didn't they come out of Ireland, instead of America and Greece? If that's the case, than they are contradicting themselves! They aren't trying to preserve the tradition, they're trying to take out what they want, and keep what they want! They just want it going their way!
OK. That's my uneducated view of the matter. I asked a lot of questions above, so maybe if someone has the time to educate me by answering them, that would be awesome. I hope I didn't say anything stupid. Really, I just want to learn, so if I'm wrong, please tell me.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Hey Max 'ol boy... I just hope I don't say anything stupid too. I think guitars are from Egypt (oud-became-lute-became-guitar) and the bodhran was originally a tambourine or empty biscuit tin... I dunno. But the bodhran, with it's current technique, came along in the 60s I believe. But the whole point is that Yanks didn't introduce these instruments to ITM -- Irish folks did. I'm probably fifty times your age, but I grew up with ITM in it's current incarnation as well. (Although I didn't discover it until I was in my 20s) I was surprised to find out how recently the "background" instruments were introduced to ITM. The first ITM I heard was the Chieftains and Planxty back in 1975. I don't know if it would have had the same impact on me if it was introduced to me the way Seamus and Michael would have preferred, but maybe they would have preferred that I never got introduced to it to begin with.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I think I might have to half agree with good ol Seamus O Dubhthaigh. I don't like guitars or bouzukis in irish music or in sessions. Its just a matter of personal preference. I think they are fine insturments in their own rights, but I just don't like them played with an ensamble or in a session. I think they make the music sound "cheap" and "fake". I guess I've been too heavily influenced by The Chieftains. But I don't care what you say, when you stick in a guitar or a zook I beleive it cheapens the music.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Jack/Zina, is Michael agreeing with Seamus, or is he simply quoting him and then saying "tell us what you think"? The quotation marks seem to indicate he is quoting but anything can happen with the old cut-paste-and-post routine.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
"when you stick in a guitar or a zook I beleive it cheapens the music."
How so? What is this detraction from the music that Seamus is talking about that you are agreeing with? Accompaniment, if it is not overdone, can add so much to the music. I still love unnacompanied playing, but I think it's really neat to add it sometimes. It gives you a whole different side to the music, that wasn't there before.
And, as you said, it's a matter of personal preference. I don't care if you and Seamus and a bunch of others prefer no accompaniment. That's great! Everyone's different. But Seamus (in my opinion) is taking it too far by wanting to abolish guitars and zooks from the ITM scene for good.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
please forgive me for not following this discussion. I entered it merely to ask a question: How do I start a new discussion? thx in advance if you can tell me what buttons to press:
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I'm glad to say there's plenty of Seamus's countrymen would disagree with him.
Went to see young Jim Murray the other day (with Seamus Begley on box) - playing some of the finest guitar accompaniment I've heard in manys the day with nothing but his fingernails. None of yer picks fer him. Anyone who could call that stuff of 'low or no musical quality' must have had a few too many of the black gold over the years.
And as for blaming it on the poor oul' Yankees - that's well and truly beyond the pale.
(vboyd - look at the top right of this thread page when you're logged in - it says 'submit a discussion' right below yer name!)
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I'm confused Johnathan, in your profile you sing the praises of the Chieftains, and expound on how Derek explained to you that ITM is "free music" and "not stuffy like classical music which only appeals to a certain audience," yet you say that guitars and bouzoukis "make the music sound 'cheap' and fake.'" I wonder what implications this holds for what you call your "Cape Breton style piano."
The Chieftains were also one of my first exposures to ITM, and I like them just fine, but it wasn't long before I realized that they were doing something different with the music. Their arrangements seem to turn ITM into some kind of Celtic chamber music with dramatic changes that would never occur in the "pure tradition." They have also experimented widely with the inclusion of many different kinds of instruments and styles into their music. If Derek were alive right now and read your post... I just wonder how "stuffy" he might think you are.
To dismiss guitars and bouzoukis as instruments that
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
After reading the alleged comments on guitars,bodhrans and threshers I wonder how poor Donal Lunny must feel as he has made a very lucrative career playing them!
A musical tradition must be in a constant state of evolvement and development or else it is in decay in my opinion.I know there are lots of guitar and Bodhran players who turn up for the free drink and do more harm than good but when you listen to the superb 70`s back-up by Paul Brady on guitar for Andy McGann,Tommy Peoples,John Vesey etc.its got to be admitted that good tasteful playing enhances the tradition.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Hm, as far as I can remember, the only person I met in Ireland who told me "You play guitar? Why don't you learn some decent instrument?" was an American fiddler. A really fine man, if somewhat purist in view. So much about blaming the Americans.
Well, I may agree with some of the points made in the article - I think that the "root" trad is worth preserving. On the other hand, I don't like to be called a person of low esteem and especially of undiscerning musical taste. Seems like Seamus O'Duffy is really bitter about it.
Let me now add a voice from a country, where listening to traditional music in it's pure version is a sign of a person of low esteem and undiscering musical tastes. Getting too much of a commercialism into tradition is no doubt a great threat and the tradition has to be preserved. On the other hand, popularizing tradition through making it accessible to low mortals gives the music ability to survive - and gives a possibility to get interested in a pure tradition for those who otherwise might not have a chance to learn about it. In my country most of traditional music was practically dead a dozen years ago - until guys with trombones, bass guitars and percussion sets dressed up in trad costumes jumped on stage and made music for the masses - fraction of it good, most of it extremely cheesy, some of it just bearing signs of "folk" roots - but it was a bolster for the revival. (There were no "middle groups" yet - just pure trad and something more remote from trad than the Pogues). All of a sudden young people, who scormed their grandpas for playing weird stuff and wearing funny hats, now get interested in their heritage. Old players and traditional groups from small villages are invited to fairs and concerts, and people in big cities started to learn traditional dances - which 6 years ago, when I started to dance them, was absolutely unthinkable - actually our girls used to say they dance trad as a turnoff for pesky guys *hehe*.
I understand Irish tradition has just the opposite problem, but... isn't some innovation, a form of "sustainable development", inevitable? Just my humble opinion.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Oh dear, obviously Seamus and some people on this site have never had the pleasure of hearing really fine backers up close. Pity - as I really dont think people can be so black and white about subjects like this if they have never actually *heard* a good backer before. Harper_lad - I know you love the Cheiftans - its nice that you do. Maybe you could just listen to some other stuff and see if you like it. When I first started playing I had all these tapes and stuff of players I loved etc...now I never ever listen to them, not because they arent good but because my taste has evolved the more involved I because with the music. When I was 17 it was all Tommy - no one else could match up etc etc. Now there are loads of others and for many different reasons, different styles etc.
Dont get me wrong - I am by no means a free thinking love every kind of musician, lets all get groovey and let bongos into the sessions kind of person, Kila were just out and I wouldnt be bothered going to their concert - just not my scene. But most of the truely tasteful recordings out there at the moment have some cranking backing. Its really interesting that Seamus goes on about killing the tradition with all these recordings etc. But I live in Australia - And I'm sure a few aussies on this site can vouch that if we didnt get recordings...it would be pretty hard to a) learn any new tunes and b) get motivated to learn any new tunes.
Alot of my friends in Ireland are pretty Pure Drop traditional - and I understand and respect that, I guess the really annoying thing is that Seamus is slagging off musicians some of who are probably 10 time more talented and playing out 10 times as much.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
May I suggest that it is the music itself which should be regarded as traditional, although it too changes over the years, i.e in how it is interpreted, choice of material(including new tunes) etc. It is a "people's music" and those who chose to participate would have played it on whatever instruments were available at the time or came to hand. Nowadays, there are many more possibilities some of which are more tasteful than others. We have argued about the inclusion of guitars, bodhrans, how many of each should there be in a session, styles of accompaniment, recorders in sessions(very recently) etc but it is a phenomenon which nobody is going to be able to stop. There are always going to be lapses of taste but just as many new worthwhile innovations. Hopefully, it's the latter which will prevail.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
What a brilliant subject Zina!
And so many spot on postings.
If I'd had the ITM police on my case I reckon I would have been excomunicated, exterminated, outlawed aeons ago!
I remember playing in "The Favourite" in London, late early 80s, and this guy from Africa with a huge gourd type drum walked in; his name was "Sunshine" and did he ever play! And this was in about the most trad Irish boozer in London! The place was still rocking at 4am! That's what you call listening/hearing with open ears!
And so it goes on. Afro-Celt Sound System. That's another product from the same pub!
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
"Freinds and sinners. I was once a person of low esteem and undiscerning taste. Yes. I was once a bazouki player. I'd thrash the thing within an inch of it's life. I'd pay no attention to melody. I'd pay no attention to the tune. Hell, I'd barely even pay much attention to the key."
"But lo! I saw the light. I got myself a fiddle. I learned the tunes. I immersed myself in the endless variations of decoration. I was saved. I was baptised by the rightessness of one note at a time (except for the odd double stop of course)."
"I did cast out that evil fretted thing from foriegn shores. I made a neclace of my plectrum and hung it arround my neck lest it always remind me of my misguided past."
"I encased the music in amber so that it may be preserved for ever in it's purest form. I forbad the playing of it in public lest it be contaminated by foreign ears. I sacrificed goats at the alter of it's heavenly beauty. I ... ... ... ... ... ...
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Seamus Duffy's opinion is a valid one and worth no less, but also no more, than anyone elses. I wouldn't get too wound up about this - in my opinion Comhaltas seem to have this thing for wanting Irish music to stagnate. Thank goodness they weren't around to have their say so in the very early days of traditional music; I shudder to think what the music would sound like now if that had been the case.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I also think Seamus O'Duffy's point is a valid one.
There are far too many backers out there who are simply happy to bash away without any understanding or knowledge of the music. Then of course there are the backers who take the trouble to learn the tune and the accompaniement properly.
My close personal friend is a bodhran player who probably listens to more music than I do and practises non-stop with every type of tune at home and is very sensitive to the music. I don't think its an American thing because in this part of the country we are plagued with loud bashing guitars, bodhrans and bouzoukis and this is supposedly the heartland of the music - Sligo-Roscommon-Leitrim.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Seamus O'Duffy's point is that there should be *no* guitar or Bodhran players. Not that there should be no *bad* guitar or bodhran players. Just out of interest - what does ole Seamus play anyway?
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
He can say all he wants, but whether he likes it or not, guitars, bodhrans and bouzoukis are here to stay. I personally would draw the line at no more than maybe 2 of any of the above per sesh, and no eggs, spoons, saxes, djembes, bongos, trombones or didges.
Maybe the problem is one of perceived semantics and semiotics. For the type of music Shamey is giving out about, maybe we should adopt a different term rather than (Irish) Traditional Music. Maybe some oxymoron like Modern Traditional Music. But in truth, he does have a point, but doesn't make it very well. I suspect he would legislate against such new fangled stuff if he ruled the world, but in reality he's gonna have to put up or shut up. Or call it something else.
The Chieftains, who don't have backers, were also a radical departure from "the tradition" when they started out playing the music in such a large ensemble. I wonder what he has to say about them.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I think the point being made is a valid one but completely over the top, but then this man is noted for that. I don't think our ancestors in their kitchens playing music for the dancing stood around in silence. I'm sure the odd one stamped a foot or made some kind of accompanying noise. Does this mean that no guitars , bodhrans , bouzoukis are welcome at the Mayo Fleadh in Newport. Will they all be run out of town by Seamus?
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
"The earliest Irish music recordings such as those of [...] Peter J. Conlon, the melodeon player from Belmont near Milltown in Co. Galway, were unaccompanied.
[...]
It was not until 1916 [...] that a piano accompaniment was introduced. "
I've done some pretty heavy trimming to get those two sections, but they are in context.
The recording of the Melodeon player he praises so highly is therefore 90+ years old.
At the time that that recording was made, therefore, the Melodeon was a newer instrument in Irish tradition than the Piano is today. We *know* when free-reed instruments were invented, and Melodeon's are a 19th century creation.
I strongly suspect that had Mr. Duffy lived contemporaneously with the recordings he currently praises, he would have been lamenting the new-fangled instruments that were ruining the music.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Neither is the fiddlle, even, . At least, not exclusively. It's popular in many countries' traditions as are various forms of pipes,
Actually, the human voice is the most traditional instrument of all. Unfortunately, there's even an extremely narrow minded few who think that unaccompanied singing is the only option. Not that I'm against that either, in its place.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Aside from the fact that Americans seem to be responsible for everything bad, these days; I personally find that our local sessions sound much better with one guitar and one bodhran than they do with none or with many.
We generally have a good mix of the traditional melody instruments; fiddle, whistles, flute, u. pipes, and concertina but the music sounds "fuller" when our guitarist starts playing (especially when she brings her 12-string) and a good bodhran player provides a rhythm we can all hear even if some of the quieter instruments can't be heard across the circle.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
How far is it from Mr Duffy's premise to that wonderful thread we had a bit back asking whether it was necessary/desirable to be Irish in order to play Irish Traditional Music? (which Michael rightly pounced on with the two word answer: Racist Baloney)
Not far I suggest.
There are two types of people in this world - (there are those who habitually divide the people of this world into two types, and those who don't) - but among the types you will meet wherever you go there is the Guy (or Girl) who wants to ORGANISE you. And wants to tell you THE RIGHT WAY to do it. Sometimes these people are themselves skilled exponents of the art they espouse, and sometimes they are just people who have a need to be seen to be in charge, authoritative, clever.
I don't even know what a Comhaltas is, or how you play it (*grin*), I spend my leisure time playing traditional music, not organising or spouting at others about it (apart from my little forays in this site). Surely, surely Mr Duffy is not in any way commercialising The Music . . . . now is he?
To quote from Zina: "and this time he wants to see you tossed out of sessions everywhere!"
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Here's an article from Standing Stones, http://www.standingstones.com/session.html,
which indicates that the Yanks may have indeed influenced Irish Traditional Music to the extent of session playing, ensemble playing. As Irish Traditional music is really based in solo playing, solo singing, perhaps Mr. Duffy is not as far off the mark in some of his statements. Like Max & Jack, I enjoy the mix of well blended instruments just as much as the solo playing.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Michael - one of the lads who works for me went snowboarding, and had an accident which involved coming down from a height, bottom first, onto what he describes as "an upside down icicle". Now he suffers from severe discomfort in his . . . in his . .
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
So it's simple... lets just remove from the trad. repertoire those tunes meant for marching and DRUMMING... whoops! their goes alot of favorites... ok then, lets just go ahead and remove those scottish and irish tunes that were composed/arranged and/or performed on stringed instruments 3-400 years ago... AW SHUCKS there goes another chunk of repertoire! What nonsense. Its ignorant to say that the drum and strings have no place...
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Oh boy! I play all _three_ of the "axes of evil" proscribed by Dr. Duffy (as well as the bouzouki's little brother, the mandolin). My daughters will be glad to know that their assessment of me as being of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes has been affirmed by a high authority.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
It appears to me that Seamus wishes trad music to be a museum exhibit.Music is what it is.People play what they like and people listen to what they like.If it is a geniune living tradition it will evolve and change as that is the nature of all living things.
Indeed he is entitled to his opinions but if this is the position of comhaltas then they will further alienate themselves from the true keepers of the tradition(people that love trad music).
I dont know about the rest of Ireland but here in Belfast the Comhaltas has as much relevance to local musicians as a pork chop has to a synagogue.
If Seamus enjoys rule and regulations so much he might do well to consider a career in the police service(I believe they are looking or recruits around this neck of the woods).
J
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
And lo ... the "four" did travel to all corners of the earth. And selfish people took it to be theirs.
"My music shall not be corrupted by Johnny foreigner" the African's descendent's declared. "I invented FOUR and will not have no distant cousin of mine say that it is his"
And the African's descendant rubbed his hands with glee as he built high fence around his precious art. Then the African's descentant died and his art died with him. And no body cared
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Do I detect a bit of .. shall I say competitive rhetoric aimed at neighboring Westport musicians like Matt Molloy et al?, where the guitar and bouzouki, and even the lowly bodhran are alive and well?
Surely he has the right to say the term "Irish Traditional Music", doesn't mean the same thing today that it meant to him in its first incarnation. That's a historical perspective, and a valid one, but hardly reason to disparage the inevitability of change.
I hope our sessions guitar player doesn't read this """"" she is just liable to be offended and go back to backing the old-time music she does so well, and where she is most appreciated.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
"but the music sounds "fuller" when our guitarist starts playing"
Totally! It adds, it doesn't detract! It gives the music something it didn't have before!
Umm, can someone explain to me exactly what Comhaltas is? I've heard it mentioned a lot on this site, and elsewhere, but I don't know anything about it.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Dave - Michael did mention in *this* thread he just back from a snowboarding holiday. And I work for a snowboard factory so I was just curious about his board of choice. Hey I'm just nosey : )
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Ya know, many people think the music sounds fuller with a guitar. Most Americans and Irish have grown to love the guitar and if we want interest to grow in trad music then the guitar will not go away. Though, I do believe in a preference for traditional instruments and styles in order to maintain the dynamic that keeps the music unique.
Personally, I play a non-trad Irish instrument, the mandolin. I prefer to play melody, and never strum cords.
Me thinks that any good tradition would maintain its core elements and be open to the dynamic of change...ie. my fav instrument is the mandolin but I will likely learn the fiddle also.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Having just glimpsed the Comhaltas Celtoiri Eirenn site(http://www.comhaltas.com/about/aims.htm), it seems interesting that the first aim of this organisation does not necessarily coincide with that of Mr. Duffy:
"To promote Irish Traditional Music in all its forms"
Deb.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
In Scotland, we have the TMSA whose aim is to promote and preserve Scottish trad music and song. I have never been tempted to join this either. Such organisations may do a lot of good work but I'm inclined to take their opinions with a pinch of salt.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Ah, but Deb, apparently there's only one form of Irish Traditional Music, and that's Mr. Duffy's. ;)
It's hard to take the man seriously, he uses the sort of sweeping generalizations that generally mark the vocabularies of the bigots and the unthoughtful; unfortunately, any kind of valid point Mr. Duffy has gets lost in the swamp of publicity-seeking verbiage.
In general, I think we need all kinds to keep this stuff healthy and happy -- we need those who like to experiment and we need those who like to keep it as close to whatever they figure is the pure as well, although I think the most important are those in-between.
As for the music itself, well, I think that the stuff inherently contains all of it's versions within itself and it's up to each musician to get what they hear inside their heads through the filter of their own ears and tastes and skills and out through the instruments of their choice.
Each of us have our own likes and dislikes and must make our own judgement calls on what is closest to the version of the music we love the most, and that's as it should be. Nothing wrong with anybody's opinion, no matter how stupid it is. *grin* Just don't tell them they don't get to have it or don't have the right to it unless you feel like looking like a tosser.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Haha okay, I just don't like guitars and zooks Jack. So sue me. Chamber music? Gah! Give me an example of a tune they play that sounds like chamber music. Why do I get the feeling no one likes the chieftains?
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
The thought did briefly cross my mind, that Mr. Duffy's comments re: wigs, war paint & music was somewhat reminicent of one Mr. Rush Limbaugh..... Deb.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
AHHAHA! Its sad Zina, but its the truth. Yes, even I, the Chieftains number one fan, must admit they do colaberate a bit much. Even in an interveiw Matt Molloy says he dislikes some of the colaberations.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Why don't we all bombard Mr. Duffy with emails from all over the World saying we definitely now will not be coming to Mayo for the County Fleadh and are cancelling our flights and B+Bs. Bet you that would put the wind up him.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Poor Mr Duffy. Everyone has their own opinion, and he's quite entitled to be wrong. I honestly don't think he needs to be taken seriously, especially when he makes comments as silly as these. He is giving Comhaltas an even worse name than it has at the moment for being staid, narrow-minded and blinkered in its views toward any 'traditional' 'Irish' 'music'...(despite all the good work it has done with Irish music)...at first hearing, one could think his words and intention were a wind-up, but then when you realise he is actually being serious, it just makes it all the more laughable.
As I already said, he shouldn't really be taken seriously, although the vast amount of responses to the post shows that people really do think for themselves, and do not easily align with a closed mind and a drawn blind.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Leitrim - maybe best if someone just emails him a link to this discussion.
My take is, though, that the Western People was out to get a good old controversial headline and Shamey was only too happy to oblige. The net result is the two of them working symbiotically satisfied the Mayo vox populus - Mayo really is quite a remote county, with, no doubt, conservative views not only on the music, but also farming and family life, etc. Incredibly beautiful though. There's a turf-fired power station there.
But I still think that, as I said above, although we mostly *play* Irish traditional music, plus a few Scottish, English, French, whatever, tunes, ie the stuff of sessions, some of what we *listen to* has gone beyond that, eg Lunasa, etc., so it doesn't easily fit into the term Irish Traditional Music. We need a new definition. I've never really been won over by the term Irish traditional music (don't start me on "ITM"!! :~}), it seems to me a convenient, but nevertheless accepted, alternative term to "folk music", which tends to be more a singer-oriented (usually with, incidentally, guitars!) description.
Maybe we should call Our Stuff something like Session Music. I have gotten used to calling it simply "the music", but obviously that's not adequate as a descriptive term for the non-cogniscenti.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
"Celtic chamber music" wasn't my invention Johnathan; it was something I read somewhere. When I listen to recordings of the Chieftains -- it makes sense. If you read my previous post to you you'll see that I said I like the Chieftains just fine. Don't get paranoid now. Also, when you go on about how guitars and bouzoukis "cheapen the music," keep in mind that it was your favorite band that was almost solely responsible for the introduction and popularization of the much-maligned bodhran.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
LOL -- Lady, what would be even funnier is to e-mail anyone who is in business in the city the County Fleadh will be held in and tell them WHY you're cancelling. ;)
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
"When I listen to recordings of the Chieftains -- it makes sense."
Yeah, I know what you mean. I do like the Chieftains (not as they are now, but some of their older albums), but I much prefer something like Patrick Street, Lunasa, Nomos or the Bothy Band. But that's just me.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Zina - there are no "cities" in Mayo. The biggest town you'll get is Ballina (pronounced Ballih-naah). My inlaws (outlaws actually!) are from near there. If there's concensus, I'll drop yer man an email.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Jack - off the main topic - I'm sure I remember reading a comment by Ciaran Carson along the lines of the Chieftains "introducing a chamber-music discipline" to the music, or words to that effect, and I can see exactly what he meant. I'll look it up.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Sorry Tish, Jack and all...just being boring and getting back to something I read earlier but can't be bothered to trawl through all the posts again to say Hello to whoever brought it up...
The word "traditional" has become complicated. Does it mean "historical", pre-Industrial Revolution or whatever point you want to choose for when the music became "untraditional"? Does it mean "pre-globalisation" (but music's always travelled, hasn't it?)
Or does it mean what's sometimes called a "living tradition"? This would be where the history is being made up all along the way, the key thing being to keep the essence of the music or a recognition of its roots.
I admit, of course, to being a person of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Didn't (or don't) the Chieftains have one or two players who are ex-classical pros and who would therefore have had in-depth experience of classical orchestral and chamber music? It wouldn't be too surprising if the Chieftains were putting that experience to good use in their own genre.
I think it could be argued that sessions are chamber music in the real sense of the term - music played by musicians in houses (or pubs!) primarily for their amusement, any audience being incidental.
Trevor
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I'm no musicologist, but to me, "traditional music" implies that the music has evolved within the context of the culture it developed in. It can also be easily identified with the country of origin. It is not a *re-creation of a long dead art form necessarily, but usually one that is living and continues to evolve. You can go around the world and identify many different kinds of "traditional music." But when you borrow from "traditional music" forms to fuse with other entirely different applications i.e. "Celtic rock," "world fusion" etc., it's a different matter all together. Many purists see this as a threat to their "traditional music" of choice, and the popularity of this phenomenon can be overwhelming and intimidating. Many of us here on the list have probably experienced clueless punters coming up and asking for
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
just a tiny footnote...we have a book about the emmigration of the irish, and thier music emmigrating with them..a photo from the irish folk society has three young (10 yrs old maybe) boys playing a side-blown wooden flute and two bodhrans, in County Limerick, circa 1900. this is in a book put out by mick maloney,,,"far from the shamrock shore...the story of irish immigration through song." the bodhrans look pretty rough, but definitely bodhrans and tippers...
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
"we have a book about the emmigration of the irish, and thier music emmigrating with them..a photo from the irish folk society has three young (10 yrs old maybe) boys playing a side-blown wooden flute and two bodhrans, in County Limerick, circa 1900. this is in a book put out by mick maloney,,,"far from the shamrock shore...the story of irish immigration through song." the bodhrans look pretty rough, but definitely bodhrans and tippers..."
Yes! I have that book too! Those are the Wren Boys. I recently saw the same picture on the front of Teada's new album "Give us a Penny and Let us be Gone" I want to find out more about them. And yeah, that would show that bodhrans were used around the turn of the Century.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Fiddlecrazy
I admire your youthful enthusiasm but want to warn you not to get caught up in, mostly esoterroricism (sic). Hang in there friend, you can play in our session anytime.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
"And lo. Along came another descendant of the African and he weilded a huge shovel. He travelled far and wide until he settled in the farthest western corner of Europe in a land they called Mayo (something to do with sallad dressing I think)."
"And the African's descendant began to dig. And dig. And dig. Until finally he came accross the number FOUR."
"And lo. He did resurect that FOUR in all it's glory. And recieved great honours for doing so. He recieved fame and fortune and even a recording contract."
"But the African's descendant was greedy. Just like his ancesters before him, he pretended that he invented FOUR so he could recoup more royalties. And not only that, without consultation he added strange things to the FOUR that were not in the hole where he found it."
"But this man didn't live long and his strange inventions died with him. The hole where he found the FOUR was filled in and all his fickle fans thought it was lost forever."
"But all was not lost. Unbeknown to the fickle fans, there was a county next door to Mayonaise who never buried their FOUR in the first place. Quite happily they enjoyed their FOUR, even adding their own strange inventions. But the best thing about it was: NOBODY CARED."
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I just had that thing where you think you post something and it's not there after all. It's to do with timing out.
Joyce
No no no - I've got no problem with you asking Michael what kind of snowboard he has - good luck lass, and go for it!
It's a little figure of speech we use over here in God's own country "Never mind that, what about xyz" as a way of saying "I desire more urgently to know about xyz" - it's not a slapdown. In this particular case it was a humourous reference to Michael's jolly mood, suggesting that the "baccy" in his pipe was of more interest at that moment than his snowboard ("I don't know what you're smoking but I want some").
Wouldn't for all the world want to stop you from having a "professionally interested nosey" into Michael's leisures and pleasures.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I think Chris Smiths words on this subject really sum this up perfectly:
Ever since the first days of the Celtic folk revival in the 1950s with the Clancy Brothers and Sean O Riada, and the 1960s with the Chieftains, contineing with the wave of 1970s groups like Planxty, the Bothy Band, and Clannad, and now up to the present day, debates have raged over the use of accompaniment in various Celtic styles. Opinions vary about the desirability of adding chordal accompaniment to this essentiall melodic and rhythmic music. Conservative exponents of the "Pure Drop", seeing themselves as defenders of a beautiful tradition, decry the us of any accompaniment, while innovators argue they are making constructive additions to the music.
Without taking sides in such arguments, it seems useful to acknowledge that most viewpients on both sides arise out of a deep love for the idiom's musical expression, and the differences of opinion are subjective. In fact, almost no one wants to destroy the tradition; nearly everyone wants to share it. The great Clare fiddler Martin Hayes said: "I think it's a mistake to divide these issues, as the music is capable of containing all of these [different] parts at once."
It's my own opinion that an artful, sensitive, and imaginitive accompanist can actually contribute enormously to the presentation of Celtic dance melodies. This is not because the melodies, played unaccompanied, are somehow incomplete; on the contrary, these tunes are so strong, so imaginative, and so rich that they can respond beautifully to equally strong, rich and imaginative accompaniment. Moreover, ever since the earliest medieval music in the Celtic nations, the tradition itself has not only survived experiment and innovation, but has often been enriched by such activities.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Traditonal music has been played on lutes guitars mandolins violins pipes drums for 100s if not 1000s of years... there is no ONE or set of trad. Irish/Scottish instruments! This is all nonsense.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Tch tch, Maryland. ;) It's not nonsense, exactly, otherwise there wouldn't be so much discussion from the reasonable and intelligent players here, now would there? (Hmmm. Anyone want to take any bets as to whether Irish trad music was ever played on a lute?) Besides, we're not talking about Scottish here, which is largely an entirely different beast, we're talking straight up Irish.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
"And lo. Gathered together in space were a whole bunch of the African's descendants. And though they were all meant to be singing from the same FOUR, they did nothing chit chat about it all day long."
A: A gnu. A big long wide one that sails beautifuly over the top of acres of lovely powder.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I trust someone has sent a link to this to yer man in Mayo.
I don't know how to do that. But then maybe he's living so far back in the dark ages he wouldn't know what to do with it!
deirdre
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
He has his opinion and he is entitled to it.
But you know it really doesn't matter what he thinks.
Not being disrespectful to him, because it doesn't matter what I think is traditional either.
Trad is form of folk music, defined exactly by what �the folk� are playing in pubs and kitchens of
(�well I was going to say Ireland, but all over the world). So if in ten years time it�s played
by people banging their heads off the wall then that�s what it is.
No organisation �owns� the music like Ceoltas seem to wish or suggest.
If it�s �owned� by anybody it�s owned by the musicians who play it, and what they play
and how they play define it.
And if a guy in Mayo says otherwise, that�s grand with me, because it�s an isolated case and
I know that the best fiddlers/pipers/flute players in the world seek out good guitar accompaniment
because they know the value of it�..
Martin Hayes&DenisCahill
Matt Molloy&Paul Brady
Paddy Keenan&Arty McGlynn
Seamus Begly&Steve Cooney
Low self-esteem and undiscerning musical taste ? Oh Please.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Here in W V I have heard ITM music played on the Steel Drum as background music in a restaurant. I wonder what Seamus Duffy would say to that innovation? I live in the same town as the inventor of the Steel Drum which is more melodic than a bodhran, but not as versatile as a guitar. There's even a steel drum band, but they don't play ITM. Just as well.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Hey guys - how about this - after an email I sent to the Western People:
Danny,
Grateful thanks for your mail and letting me know about 'thesession'
website which I was unaware of before now.
My God, I was not aware that this had become such a major issue for debate
among followers of traditional music! There is a fascinating response from
so many people. Some of it was brilliant .... I was in stitches laughing at
the witty comments!
I will probably devote a page of the Western People to some of the comments
on the website in Tuesday week's issue (20th April). I will let Seamus
Duffy know about this website and the huge interest generated by his
comments.
Danny, thanks again for letting me know about this website. I knew it was a
topical story when I wrote it .... but I didn't think it would generate
such a debate.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Tim Britton does a great hornpipe with steel drums on his CD. While I'm no big fan of his piping, I think his whistle playing is fine.All credit to him for combining it with the sound of steel drums; it ceates a lovely mellow sound.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Say 'hi' to the Pope for me, Joe. I know the weekend will be busy for him, but tell him he's in my thoughts!
PS Bravo Danny! I was going to write long entry on the Hennessy/Doyle effect of guitar backing on teenagers & other women with low thresholds of 'esteem & taste,' but I'll just hold on to that for the moment, eh?
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Happy Easter everyone, even Mayomen - I'm off to the Roscommon Fleadh in STrokestown, hope I don't meet any guitar players or bodhran players of low esteem and undiscerning musical taste. Have a good week-end all
deirdre
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
And now for a response from a guitar and octave mandolin-playing Yank:
Mr. O'Duffy's opinion only goes to show that everyone has an opinion. I'm sure someone said the same thing when fiddles were introduced into Irish trad in the 18th century, or pipes in the 19th, or even pianos in the 20th. I think he also forgets that Irish trad was languishing badly in the 1950s and 60s, or at least so "pure" that relatively few people were learning or playing it until young groups like De Danann or the Bothy Band gave it new life and a new audience in part by bringing new instruments to the party. So, it sounds like Mr. O'Duffy is being a bit selective about the history of ITM. The question that really should have been asked of him is "What is your real point here?"
Regarding low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes, well, I'll match my talent, esteem, and taste against Mr. O'Duffy's any day of the week, as well as my respect for tradition and what can be done with it. ITM is bigger than he is, and it will outlast this tempest in a teapot.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I was reading this thread and despite my resistance to forming an opinion of my own, somehow found one emerging, unexpectedly, like a bodhran at an all-fiddler session.
ITM is scaleable: it scales nicely, up or down in numbers, its musical attributes can be subtle and delicate or brash and vigorous.
So much depends on the weather, the mood of the moment, your own emotions, that "fixed rules" don't ever seem appropriate. Circumstances dictate what is "right" and what is "wrong". Perhaps there are players who only want the melody and its intrinsic rhythm - I can surely enjoy that as a listener.
In a home or kitchen session, I say less is more, the fewer the better. But in a noisy pub session, so much of nuance and subtlety gets lost to the din that the guitar or bouzouki really are needed for the steady rhythm and harmonic foundation they provide.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
In fairness to Comhaltas, it did actually have a massive effect on teaching and encouraging the music in the 60s and 70s, in parallel with the emergence of the supergroups. Many of the biggest names who started playing then were involved with it, and lots of people got to know each other (and played in some mighty sessions) at fleadhs and other events. It had massive grassroots support, especially in the UK and US, and I know quite a few musicians who devoted a couple of decades of their lives to teaching the younger generation ... for no financial reward.
I'm sure there are still many dedicated people in Comhaltas now, but it seems to be a case of lions led by donkeys, and a lot of folks just walked when all the politics and BS kicked in. And IMHO, the idea of a single body like Comhaltas "owning" the music is ludicrous
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Jaysus, Zina! What a thread! Makes my head spin. When I got down to about comment 52 I had a million things to say. I was looking for fuel for debates with a musician I am playing with about what is or is not the "real", "original", or "traditional" way to play The Music. (Those are all his words, not mine!) Ironically, what do you think he plays? That's right! Guitar! Where does he get his idea of what is "original" or "traditional"? That's right! His CD collection! Chock-a-block with Lunasa, Martin Hayes, Dannu, and about a dozen groups who have succumbed to the guitar / bazouki, bodhran / spoons / bones, pipes / fiddle / flute / banjo model of ITM. I try to tell him if he wants to be a purist he should burn all his sheet music, Throw out the CD collection, move out to the country, plant some potatos and get a dairy cow or two, then show up in somebody's barn every second saturday, hoping some of the locals will drop in for a set dance or two!
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I still feel that this is nonsense... or maybe I should say specifically that the original assertion is... and Zina, yes the lute has had many forms and functions in IRISH music... the fiddle is even a "new" instrument in comparison to the depth of the tradition... and I KNOW that most ITM's will preach about the differences between it and Scottish music but in an ethnomusical sense there just isn't a documented record od PURELY IRISH tunes... this whole thing is just scratching the surface of the music and it's depth.
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Kerri! Love hearing from you, chick! Let me know what's up with you.
Maryland, perhaps in Irish music, but not much in Irish traditional music, and specifically session music, which is supposedly what this site is all about. Scottish and Irish music are two entirely different styles. They're played entirely different. Perhaps in your style they aren't, but Scottish and Irish musicians don't feel they play the same way, that's for sure.
Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Okay, where are you, all you guitar and bodhran players? *grin* Mayo Comhaltas secretary, Seamus O Dubhthaigh (Duffy) is on the warpath again (last time it was wigs and makeup on the dancers), and this time he wants to see you tossed out of sessions everywhere! He, as usual, blames the Americans. Where's he been when everyone else here is accusing the Yanks of being ultra-purist to the max and far too stuffy to be left alive?
Quoted by Michael Commins of Western People, he says, "I am often amazed and also annoyed by music artistes and radio presenters who introduce various recordings of Irish music as being traditional. In fact, the latter adjective must be the most abused, relative to Irish music, that exists. By its very nature, Irish traditional music is a folk music, simple and uncomplicated. Unfortunately, in many modern recordings we get elements which are not within the tradition such as lavish attempts at arrangements, in some cases overtures, with a callithumpian concert of guitars, bodhrans and basoukis in the background - instruments of low or no musical quality which tend to obscure and distract from the central artiste. This feature of the recording business seems to worsen on an annual basis. I can assure all and sundry that this is not an Irish influence but a commercial one, and largely American."
More at http://www.westernpeople.ie/news/story.asp?j=18784, if you can get through.
Michael Commins ends up:
""While Seamus says guitars are fine in "country music, the Beatles and pop where they have their own place", they are a 'no go' in the traditional stakes here at home."
"Today, we find ourselves in a situation where, in some instances, the accompaniment dominates to such an extinct that it drowns the central artiste but in all cases distracts attention from the artiste, all in the name of progress but aimed at commercialism.
"I believe guitar and bodhran players who operate in traditional circles are people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes. Noise is substituted for actual music. These instruments add nothing to our music but take a lot from it. A pertinent question should be - can we allow conscious commercialism to destroy a most important element of a nation's culture?," asks Seamus.
Any guitar or bodhran players, or anyone with an opinion on the matters raised above, are welcome to respond to the views expressed by Seamus Duffy. Letters can be posted to Michael Commins, 'Diary Page', Western People, Claremorris, Mayo or e-mailed to mcummins@wpeople.iol.ie"
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Blame Planxty and the Chieftains etc. Leave us Yanks out of it. hahahaha Actually, wasn't Sweeney's Men one of the first instances of ITM with guitars, bouzoukis, etc. "in the background" on a recording? And what about Cristy Moore's recording, "Prosporous"? Wow, imagine if it was the fault of the Yanks... naw, we're just copying what the Irish do. hahahaha You'd think Seamus and Michael are living in a cave somewhere the way they go on. They're convoluted logic and twisted facts remind me of a certain US president. *ahem*
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Phantom Button
THEIR
I meant "Their convoluted logic..." geeesh! sorry
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
OK. Before I begin here, I want you to realize that all this is coming from someone who is still learning a lot about traditional music, so tell if I'm saying something stupid.
"can we allow conscious commercialism to destroy a most important element of a nation's culture"
What are they going to do about it? What CAN they do about it?
I like guitars, bodhrans and bouzoukis. What's wrong with adding something new to the tradition? It can't stay the same forever. I mean, you shouldn't be totally radical, and change everything, but some change is OK, right? I don't think that it detracts from the music, I think it adds something to it that it didn't have before. Of course, these people have been living a lot longer than me, so they actually saw the change take place. Maybe that's what's bugging them. I am growing up in an age where guitars, bodhrans and bouzoukis are used quite often in Irish music, it isn't anything new for me. They are probably howling because they liked it, and it was changed. I mean, didn't guitars and bouzoukis emerge in the early 70s, with bands like the Bothy Band, Sweeney's Men and Planxty?
But what about bodhrans? They're not a new thing are they? Haven't they been played for years? And unlike giutars and bouzoukis, didn't they come out of Ireland, instead of America and Greece? If that's the case, than they are contradicting themselves! They aren't trying to preserve the tradition, they're trying to take out what they want, and keep what they want! They just want it going their way!
OK. That's my uneducated view of the matter. I asked a lot of questions above, so maybe if someone has the time to educate me by answering them, that would be awesome. I hope I didn't say anything stupid. Really, I just want to learn, so if I'm wrong, please tell me.
Thanks!
-Max
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Woops, Jack, you must have posted while I was typing.
-Max
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Hey Max 'ol boy... I just hope I don't say anything stupid too. I think guitars are from Egypt (oud-became-lute-became-guitar) and the bodhran was originally a tambourine or empty biscuit tin... I dunno. But the bodhran, with it's current technique, came along in the 60s I believe. But the whole point is that Yanks didn't introduce these instruments to ITM -- Irish folks did. I'm probably fifty times your age, but I grew up with ITM in it's current incarnation as well. (Although I didn't discover it until I was in my 20s) I was surprised to find out how recently the "background" instruments were introduced to ITM. The first ITM I heard was the Chieftains and Planxty back in 1975. I don't know if it would have had the same impact on me if it was introduced to me the way Seamus and Michael would have preferred, but maybe they would have preferred that I never got introduced to it to begin with.
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Interesting: 'round here "artiste" is a euphemism for "exotic dancer" AKA stripper.
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by ScottC
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I think I might have to half agree with good ol Seamus O Dubhthaigh. I don't like guitars or bouzukis in irish music or in sessions. Its just a matter of personal preference. I think they are fine insturments in their own rights, but I just don't like them played with an ensamble or in a session. I think they make the music sound "cheap" and "fake". I guess I've been too heavily influenced by The Chieftains. But I don't care what you say, when you stick in a guitar or a zook I beleive it cheapens the music.
Johnathan
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Harper_Lad
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Jack/Zina, is Michael agreeing with Seamus, or is he simply quoting him and then saying "tell us what you think"? The quotation marks seem to indicate he is quoting but anything can happen with the old cut-paste-and-post routine.
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Tish
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
"when you stick in a guitar or a zook I beleive it cheapens the music."
How so? What is this detraction from the music that Seamus is talking about that you are agreeing with? Accompaniment, if it is not overdone, can add so much to the music. I still love unnacompanied playing, but I think it's really neat to add it sometimes. It gives you a whole different side to the music, that wasn't there before.
And, as you said, it's a matter of personal preference. I don't care if you and Seamus and a bunch of others prefer no accompaniment. That's great! Everyone's different. But Seamus (in my opinion) is taking it too far by wanting to abolish guitars and zooks from the ITM scene for good.
-Max
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
please forgive me for not following this discussion. I entered it merely to ask a question: How do I start a new discussion? thx in advance if you can tell me what buttons to press:
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by vboyd100
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I'm glad to say there's plenty of Seamus's countrymen would disagree with him.
Went to see young Jim Murray the other day (with Seamus Begley on box) - playing some of the finest guitar accompaniment I've heard in manys the day with nothing but his fingernails. None of yer picks fer him. Anyone who could call that stuff of 'low or no musical quality' must have had a few too many of the black gold over the years.
And as for blaming it on the poor oul' Yankees - that's well and truly beyond the pale.
(vboyd - look at the top right of this thread page when you're logged in - it says 'submit a discussion' right below yer name!)
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by bc_box_player
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I'm confused Johnathan, in your profile you sing the praises of the Chieftains, and expound on how Derek explained to you that ITM is "free music" and "not stuffy like classical music which only appeals to a certain audience," yet you say that guitars and bouzoukis "make the music sound 'cheap' and fake.'" I wonder what implications this holds for what you call your "Cape Breton style piano."
The Chieftains were also one of my first exposures to ITM, and I like them just fine, but it wasn't long before I realized that they were doing something different with the music. Their arrangements seem to turn ITM into some kind of Celtic chamber music with dramatic changes that would never occur in the "pure tradition." They have also experimented widely with the inclusion of many different kinds of instruments and styles into their music. If Derek were alive right now and read your post... I just wonder how "stuffy" he might think you are.
To dismiss guitars and bouzoukis as instruments that
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
After reading the alleged comments on guitars,bodhrans and threshers I wonder how poor Donal Lunny must feel as he has made a very lucrative career playing them!
A musical tradition must be in a constant state of evolvement and development or else it is in decay in my opinion.I know there are lots of guitar and Bodhran players who turn up for the free drink and do more harm than good but when you listen to the superb 70`s back-up by Paul Brady on guitar for Andy McGann,Tommy Peoples,John Vesey etc.its got to be admitted that good tasteful playing enhances the tradition.
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by cos
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Hm, as far as I can remember, the only person I met in Ireland who told me "You play guitar? Why don't you learn some decent instrument?" was an American fiddler. A really fine man, if somewhat purist in view. So much about blaming the Americans.
Well, I may agree with some of the points made in the article - I think that the "root" trad is worth preserving. On the other hand, I don't like to be called a person of low esteem and especially of undiscerning musical taste. Seems like Seamus O'Duffy is really bitter about it.
Let me now add a voice from a country, where listening to traditional music in it's pure version is a sign of a person of low esteem and undiscering musical tastes. Getting too much of a commercialism into tradition is no doubt a great threat and the tradition has to be preserved. On the other hand, popularizing tradition through making it accessible to low mortals gives the music ability to survive - and gives a possibility to get interested in a pure tradition for those who otherwise might not have a chance to learn about it. In my country most of traditional music was practically dead a dozen years ago - until guys with trombones, bass guitars and percussion sets dressed up in trad costumes jumped on stage and made music for the masses - fraction of it good, most of it extremely cheesy, some of it just bearing signs of "folk" roots - but it was a bolster for the revival. (There were no "middle groups" yet - just pure trad and something more remote from trad than the Pogues). All of a sudden young people, who scormed their grandpas for playing weird stuff and wearing funny hats, now get interested in their heritage. Old players and traditional groups from small villages are invited to fairs and concerts, and people in big cities started to learn traditional dances - which 6 years ago, when I started to dance them, was absolutely unthinkable - actually our girls used to say they dance trad as a turnoff for pesky guys *hehe*.
I understand Irish tradition has just the opposite problem, but... isn't some innovation, a form of "sustainable development", inevitable? Just my humble opinion.
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Janek
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
sorry for misprints
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Janek
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Oh dear, obviously Seamus and some people on this site have never had the pleasure of hearing really fine backers up close. Pity - as I really dont think people can be so black and white about subjects like this if they have never actually *heard* a good backer before. Harper_lad - I know you love the Cheiftans - its nice that you do. Maybe you could just listen to some other stuff and see if you like it. When I first started playing I had all these tapes and stuff of players I loved etc...now I never ever listen to them, not because they arent good but because my taste has evolved the more involved I because with the music. When I was 17 it was all Tommy - no one else could match up etc etc. Now there are loads of others and for many different reasons, different styles etc.
Dont get me wrong - I am by no means a free thinking love every kind of musician, lets all get groovey and let bongos into the sessions kind of person, Kila were just out and I wouldnt be bothered going to their concert - just not my scene. But most of the truely tasteful recordings out there at the moment have some cranking backing. Its really interesting that Seamus goes on about killing the tradition with all these recordings etc. But I live in Australia - And I'm sure a few aussies on this site can vouch that if we didnt get recordings...it would be pretty hard to a) learn any new tunes and b) get motivated to learn any new tunes.
Alot of my friends in Ireland are pretty Pure Drop traditional - and I understand and respect that, I guess the really annoying thing is that Seamus is slagging off musicians some of who are probably 10 time more talented and playing out 10 times as much.
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by bb
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
May I suggest that it is the music itself which should be regarded as traditional, although it too changes over the years, i.e in how it is interpreted, choice of material(including new tunes) etc. It is a "people's music" and those who chose to participate would have played it on whatever instruments were available at the time or came to hand. Nowadays, there are many more possibilities some of which are more tasteful than others. We have argued about the inclusion of guitars, bodhrans, how many of each should there be in a session, styles of accompaniment, recorders in sessions(very recently) etc but it is a phenomenon which nobody is going to be able to stop. There are always going to be lapses of taste but just as many new worthwhile innovations. Hopefully, it's the latter which will prevail.
John
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
What a brilliant subject Zina!
And so many spot on postings.
If I'd had the ITM police on my case I reckon I would have been excomunicated, exterminated, outlawed aeons ago!
I remember playing in "The Favourite" in London, late early 80s, and this guy from Africa with a huge gourd type drum walked in; his name was "Sunshine" and did he ever play! And this was in about the most trad Irish boozer in London! The place was still rocking at 4am! That's what you call listening/hearing with open ears!
And so it goes on. Afro-Celt Sound System. That's another product from the same pub!
Keep up the good work!
Brianx
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by briantheflute
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
"Freinds and sinners. I was once a person of low esteem and undiscerning taste. Yes. I was once a bazouki player. I'd thrash the thing within an inch of it's life. I'd pay no attention to melody. I'd pay no attention to the tune. Hell, I'd barely even pay much attention to the key."
"But lo! I saw the light. I got myself a fiddle. I learned the tunes. I immersed myself in the endless variations of decoration. I was saved. I was baptised by the rightessness of one note at a time (except for the odd double stop of course)."
"I did cast out that evil fretted thing from foriegn shores. I made a neclace of my plectrum and hung it arround my neck lest it always remind me of my misguided past."
"I encased the music in amber so that it may be preserved for ever in it's purest form. I forbad the playing of it in public lest it be contaminated by foreign ears. I sacrificed goats at the alter of it's heavenly beauty. I ... ... ... ... ... ...
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by ...
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Seamus Duffy's opinion is a valid one and worth no less, but also no more, than anyone elses. I wouldn't get too wound up about this - in my opinion Comhaltas seem to have this thing for wanting Irish music to stagnate. Thank goodness they weren't around to have their say so in the very early days of traditional music; I shudder to think what the music would sound like now if that had been the case.
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Michael... have you been at my stash? 'Cos Dave's over in the fipple/teeth thread and says he wants some when you're done
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Q
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
i personally think his opinion is a load of horse poo (to be polite). just to let you know.
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by NickPhelan
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I also think Seamus O'Duffy's point is a valid one.
There are far too many backers out there who are simply happy to bash away without any understanding or knowledge of the music. Then of course there are the backers who take the trouble to learn the tune and the accompaniement properly.
My close personal friend is a bodhran player who probably listens to more music than I do and practises non-stop with every type of tune at home and is very sensitive to the music. I don't think its an American thing because in this part of the country we are plagued with loud bashing guitars, bodhrans and bouzoukis and this is supposedly the heartland of the music - Sligo-Roscommon-Leitrim.
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by MollyB
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Would it be wrong of me to opine that Nick Phelan's opinion of Seamus Duffy's opinion is a valid one (in my............. estimation)?
C
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Seamus O'Duffy's point is that there should be *no* guitar or Bodhran players. Not that there should be no *bad* guitar or bodhran players. Just out of interest - what does ole Seamus play anyway?
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by bb
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
He can say all he wants, but whether he likes it or not, guitars, bodhrans and bouzoukis are here to stay. I personally would draw the line at no more than maybe 2 of any of the above per sesh, and no eggs, spoons, saxes, djembes, bongos, trombones or didges.
Maybe the problem is one of perceived semantics and semiotics. For the type of music Shamey is giving out about, maybe we should adopt a different term rather than (Irish) Traditional Music. Maybe some oxymoron like Modern Traditional Music. But in truth, he does have a point, but doesn't make it very well. I suspect he would legislate against such new fangled stuff if he ruled the world, but in reality he's gonna have to put up or shut up. Or call it something else.
The Chieftains, who don't have backers, were also a radical departure from "the tradition" when they started out playing the music in such a large ensemble. I wonder what he has to say about them.
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I think the point being made is a valid one but completely over the top, but then this man is noted for that. I don't think our ancestors in their kitchens playing music for the dancing stood around in silence. I'm sure the odd one stamped a foot or made some kind of accompanying noise. Does this mean that no guitars , bodhrans , bouzoukis are welcome at the Mayo Fleadh in Newport. Will they all be run out of town by Seamus?
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by MollyB
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
This is a totally "off-the -wall" point of view and while S
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Bannerman
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
"The earliest Irish music recordings such as those of [...] Peter J. Conlon, the melodeon player from Belmont near Milltown in Co. Galway, were unaccompanied.
[...]
It was not until 1916 [...] that a piano accompaniment was introduced. "
I've done some pretty heavy trimming to get those two sections, but they are in context.
The recording of the Melodeon player he praises so highly is therefore 90+ years old.
At the time that that recording was made, therefore, the Melodeon was a newer instrument in Irish tradition than the Piano is today. We *know* when free-reed instruments were invented, and Melodeon's are a 19th century creation.
I strongly suspect that had Mr. Duffy lived contemporaneously with the recordings he currently praises, he would have been lamenting the new-fangled instruments that were ruining the music.
--Dave
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Dave Weinstein
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
The violin isn't an Irish instrument is it?
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Edja
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I'm too 'umble to comment on such a great personage's opinion.
I'm much too lowly to have any esteem for myselk.
Uriah Heep
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
A truly great band, by Dickens.
In at least one of their incarnations, anyway.
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Q
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Neither is the fiddlle, even,
. At least, not exclusively. It's popular in many countries' traditions as are various forms of pipes,
Actually, the human voice is the most traditional instrument of all. Unfortunately, there's even an extremely narrow minded few who think that unaccompanied singing is the only option. Not that I'm against that either, in its place.
John
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
A long long long time ago, in a place far far away, there onced lived an African. And the African counted to four.
"But what use is it?" his freinds exclaimed.
"It is of no use" replied the dark skinned inovator, "but I shall call in common time and soon it shall spread arround the world with my decendants."
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by ...
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Do we know what Mr. Duffy's opinions are on recorders?
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by Kenny
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I like to think I have a healthy respect for tradition and a healthy disrespect for it.
# Posted on April 5th 2004 by ian clark
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Aside from the fact that Americans seem to be responsible for everything bad, these days; I personally find that our local sessions sound much better with one guitar and one bodhran than they do with none or with many.
We generally have a good mix of the traditional melody instruments; fiddle, whistles, flute, u. pipes, and concertina but the music sounds "fuller" when our guitarist starts playing (especially when she brings her 12-string) and a good bodhran player provides a rhythm we can all hear even if some of the quieter instruments can't be heard across the circle.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Has someone put new batteries in Michael Gill?
Come on - own up.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Yes. I've just got back from my annual snow boarding in the French Alps (powdertastick)
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by ...
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
How far is it from Mr Duffy's premise to that wonderful thread we had a bit back asking whether it was necessary/desirable to be Irish in order to play Irish Traditional Music? (which Michael rightly pounced on with the two word answer: Racist Baloney)
Not far I suggest.
There are two types of people in this world - (there are those who habitually divide the people of this world into two types, and those who don't) - but among the types you will meet wherever you go there is the Guy (or Girl) who wants to ORGANISE you. And wants to tell you THE RIGHT WAY to do it. Sometimes these people are themselves skilled exponents of the art they espouse, and sometimes they are just people who have a need to be seen to be in charge, authoritative, clever.
I don't even know what a Comhaltas is, or how you play it (*grin*), I spend my leisure time playing traditional music, not organising or spouting at others about it (apart from my little forays in this site). Surely, surely Mr Duffy is not in any way commercialising The Music . . . . now is he?
To quote from Zina: "and this time he wants to see you tossed out of sessions everywhere!"
Sounds like a tosser to me.
Dave ;o)
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Here's an article from Standing Stones, http://www.standingstones.com/session.html,
which indicates that the Yanks may have indeed influenced Irish Traditional Music to the extent of session playing, ensemble playing. As Irish Traditional music is really based in solo playing, solo singing, perhaps Mr. Duffy is not as far off the mark in some of his statements. Like Max & Jack, I enjoy the mix of well blended instruments just as much as the solo playing.
Interesting reading in any case.
Deb.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
"I enjoy the mix of well blended instruments"
Debwah, this should be on "THE FIRST SCRATCH" thread.
Do you use a food blender?
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
No, I prefer the whisk myself! Thre's something infinitely satisfying by using my own hands for the job.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Michael - one of the lads who works for me went snowboarding, and had an accident which involved coming down from a height, bottom first, onto what he describes as "an upside down icicle". Now he suffers from severe discomfort in his . . . in his . .
Rectum? I'll say it did.
Dave
ps Where do the batteries go?
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Ian! Let's celebrate Seamus O Duffy with Guitar Jam. Your place at 8:30 tonight? We'll send him a recording of the evening eh?
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Pawl
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Hmm I was always told there were 10 kinds of ppl in the world, those who count in binary & those who don't......
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by emily_bmore
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
So it's simple... lets just remove from the trad. repertoire those tunes meant for marching and DRUMMING... whoops! their goes alot of favorites... ok then, lets just go ahead and remove those scottish and irish tunes that were composed/arranged and/or performed on stringed instruments 3-400 years ago... AW SHUCKS there goes another chunk of repertoire! What nonsense. Its ignorant to say that the drum and strings have no place...
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Oh boy! I play all _three_ of the "axes of evil" proscribed by Dr. Duffy (as well as the bouzouki's little brother, the mandolin). My daughters will be glad to know that their assessment of me as being of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes has been affirmed by a high authority.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by sts
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
It appears to me that Seamus wishes trad music to be a museum exhibit.Music is what it is.People play what they like and people listen to what they like.If it is a geniune living tradition it will evolve and change as that is the nature of all living things.
Indeed he is entitled to his opinions but if this is the position of comhaltas then they will further alienate themselves from the true keepers of the tradition(people that love trad music).
I dont know about the rest of Ireland but here in Belfast the Comhaltas has as much relevance to local musicians as a pork chop has to a synagogue.
If Seamus enjoys rule and regulations so much he might do well to consider a career in the police service(I believe they are looking or recruits around this neck of the woods).
J
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by JimR
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Ah J but do you think they'll let him keep his wee green jacket? Might give stone throwers an easier target.
Con
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
And lo ... the "four" did travel to all corners of the earth. And selfish people took it to be theirs.
"My music shall not be corrupted by Johnny foreigner" the African's descendent's declared. "I invented FOUR and will not have no distant cousin of mine say that it is his"
And the African's descendant rubbed his hands with glee as he built high fence around his precious art. Then the African's descentant died and his art died with him. And no body cared
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by ...
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Michael what kind of board do you ride??
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by JMH
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Do I detect a bit of .. shall I say competitive rhetoric aimed at neighboring Westport musicians like Matt Molloy et al?, where the guitar and bouzouki, and even the lowly bodhran are alive and well?
Surely he has the right to say the term "Irish Traditional Music", doesn't mean the same thing today that it meant to him in its first incarnation. That's a historical perspective, and a valid one, but hardly reason to disparage the inevitability of change.
I hope our sessions guitar player doesn't read this """"" she is just liable to be offended and go back to backing the old-time music she does so well, and where she is most appreciated.
Good thread Zina. Makes you think.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by wvwhistler
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Gnu
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by ...
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Never mind what kind of board Michael rides - I want to know what he's drinking.
Michael - will there be some left if we come round?
Dave
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I used to know a french polisher who drank/drinks in Sandy Bells but he's retired now so that can't be the source.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
"but the music sounds "fuller" when our guitarist starts playing"
Totally! It adds, it doesn't detract! It gives the music something it didn't have before!
Umm, can someone explain to me exactly what Comhaltas is? I've heard it mentioned a lot on this site, and elsewhere, but I don't know anything about it.
-Max
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Dave - Michael did mention in *this* thread he just back from a snowboarding holiday. And I work for a snowboard factory so I was just curious about his board of choice. Hey I'm just nosey : )
Joyce
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by JMH
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Ya know, many people think the music sounds fuller with a guitar. Most Americans and Irish have grown to love the guitar and if we want interest to grow in trad music then the guitar will not go away. Though, I do believe in a preference for traditional instruments and styles in order to maintain the dynamic that keeps the music unique.
Personally, I play a non-trad Irish instrument, the mandolin. I prefer to play melody, and never strum cords.
Me thinks that any good tradition would maintain its core elements and be open to the dynamic of change...ie. my fav instrument is the mandolin but I will likely learn the fiddle also.
- Michael
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Michael Maedoc
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Having just glimpsed the Comhaltas Celtoiri Eirenn site(http://www.comhaltas.com/about/aims.htm), it seems interesting that the first aim of this organisation does not necessarily coincide with that of Mr. Duffy:
"To promote Irish Traditional Music in all its forms"
Deb.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
The music sounds fuller when I start drinking.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
One of the many forms of the music Jack.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
In Scotland, we have the TMSA whose aim is to promote and preserve Scottish trad music and song. I have never been tempted to join this either. Such organisations may do a lot of good work but I'm inclined to take their opinions with a pinch of salt.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Ah, but Deb, apparently there's only one form of Irish Traditional Music, and that's Mr. Duffy's. ;)
It's hard to take the man seriously, he uses the sort of sweeping generalizations that generally mark the vocabularies of the bigots and the unthoughtful; unfortunately, any kind of valid point Mr. Duffy has gets lost in the swamp of publicity-seeking verbiage.
In general, I think we need all kinds to keep this stuff healthy and happy -- we need those who like to experiment and we need those who like to keep it as close to whatever they figure is the pure as well, although I think the most important are those in-between.
As for the music itself, well, I think that the stuff inherently contains all of it's versions within itself and it's up to each musician to get what they hear inside their heads through the filter of their own ears and tastes and skills and out through the instruments of their choice.
Each of us have our own likes and dislikes and must make our own judgement calls on what is closest to the version of the music we love the most, and that's as it should be. Nothing wrong with anybody's opinion, no matter how stupid it is. *grin* Just don't tell them they don't get to have it or don't have the right to it unless you feel like looking like a tosser.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Haha okay, I just don't like guitars and zooks Jack. So sue me. Chamber music? Gah! Give me an example of a tune they play that sounds like chamber music. Why do I get the feeling no one likes the chieftains?
\Johnathan/
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Harper_Lad
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Heh. Poor Johnathan. Did you ever see this one? http://www.standingstones.com/itm2000.html -- get a load of the entry under 1973... ;)
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
The thought did briefly cross my mind, that Mr. Duffy's comments re: wigs, war paint & music was somewhat reminicent of one Mr. Rush Limbaugh..... Deb.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
AHHAHA! Its sad Zina, but its the truth. Yes, even I, the Chieftains number one fan, must admit they do colaberate a bit much. Even in an interveiw Matt Molloy says he dislikes some of the colaberations.
Johnathan
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Harper_Lad
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Why don't we all bombard Mr. Duffy with emails from all over the World saying we definitely now will not be coming to Mayo for the County Fleadh and are cancelling our flights and B+Bs. Bet you that would put the wind up him.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by MollyB
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Just for more fun, here is a handy reference on the Melodeon in Irish Music: http://homepages.iol.ie/~ronolan/melodeon.html
Key quote: "The single row melodeon was introduced to Ireland in the last quarter of the 19th century."
So, in the time frame Mr. Duffy is touting as the anchor of tradition, the Melodeon had been part of "tradition" for no more than 40 years.
--Dave
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Dave Weinstein
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Poor Mr Duffy. Everyone has their own opinion, and he's quite entitled to be wrong. I honestly don't think he needs to be taken seriously, especially when he makes comments as silly as these. He is giving Comhaltas an even worse name than it has at the moment for being staid, narrow-minded and blinkered in its views toward any 'traditional' 'Irish' 'music'...(despite all the good work it has done with Irish music)...at first hearing, one could think his words and intention were a wind-up, but then when you realise he is actually being serious, it just makes it all the more laughable.
As I already said, he shouldn't really be taken seriously, although the vast amount of responses to the post shows that people really do think for themselves, and do not easily align with a closed mind and a drawn blind.
Jim
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Leitrim - maybe best if someone just emails him a link to this discussion.
My take is, though, that the Western People was out to get a good old controversial headline and Shamey was only too happy to oblige. The net result is the two of them working symbiotically satisfied the Mayo vox populus - Mayo really is quite a remote county, with, no doubt, conservative views not only on the music, but also farming and family life, etc. Incredibly beautiful though. There's a turf-fired power station there.
But I still think that, as I said above, although we mostly *play* Irish traditional music, plus a few Scottish, English, French, whatever, tunes, ie the stuff of sessions, some of what we *listen to* has gone beyond that, eg Lunasa, etc., so it doesn't easily fit into the term Irish Traditional Music. We need a new definition. I've never really been won over by the term Irish traditional music (don't start me on "ITM"!! :~}), it seems to me a convenient, but nevertheless accepted, alternative term to "folk music", which tends to be more a singer-oriented (usually with, incidentally, guitars!) description.
Maybe we should call Our Stuff something like Session Music. I have gotten used to calling it simply "the music", but obviously that's not adequate as a descriptive term for the non-cogniscenti.
Right.
Time for a new thread........
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
"Celtic chamber music" wasn't my invention Johnathan; it was something I read somewhere. When I listen to recordings of the Chieftains -- it makes sense. If you read my previous post to you you'll see that I said I like the Chieftains just fine. Don't get paranoid now. Also, when you go on about how guitars and bouzoukis "cheapen the music," keep in mind that it was your favorite band that was almost solely responsible for the introduction and popularization of the much-maligned bodhran.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
LOL -- Lady, what would be even funnier is to e-mail anyone who is in business in the city the County Fleadh will be held in and tell them WHY you're cancelling. ;)
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
"When I listen to recordings of the Chieftains -- it makes sense."
Yeah, I know what you mean. I do like the Chieftains (not as they are now, but some of their older albums), but I much prefer something like Patrick Street, Lunasa, Nomos or the Bothy Band. But that's just me.
-Max
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Zina - there are no "cities" in Mayo. The biggest town you'll get is Ballina (pronounced Ballih-naah). My inlaws (outlaws actually!) are from near there. If there's concensus, I'll drop yer man an email.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Jack - off the main topic - I'm sure I remember reading a comment by Ciaran Carson along the lines of the Chieftains "introducing a chamber-music discipline" to the music, or words to that effect, and I can see exactly what he meant. I'll look it up.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Tish
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Sorry Tish, Jack and all...just being boring and getting back to something I read earlier but can't be bothered to trawl through all the posts again to say Hello to whoever brought it up...
The word "traditional" has become complicated. Does it mean "historical", pre-Industrial Revolution or whatever point you want to choose for when the music became "untraditional"? Does it mean "pre-globalisation" (but music's always travelled, hasn't it?)
Or does it mean what's sometimes called a "living tradition"? This would be where the history is being made up all along the way, the key thing being to keep the essence of the music or a recognition of its roots.
I admit, of course, to being a person of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes.
())/
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by greenman
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Didn't (or don't) the Chieftains have one or two players who are ex-classical pros and who would therefore have had in-depth experience of classical orchestral and chamber music? It wouldn't be too surprising if the Chieftains were putting that experience to good use in their own genre.
I think it could be argued that sessions are chamber music in the real sense of the term - music played by musicians in houses (or pubs!) primarily for their amusement, any audience being incidental.
Trevor
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Just noticed this thing about "tradition" is at the back of all the sh*t that's going on globally.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by greenman
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I'm no musicologist, but to me, "traditional music" implies that the music has evolved within the context of the culture it developed in. It can also be easily identified with the country of origin. It is not a *re-creation of a long dead art form necessarily, but usually one that is living and continues to evolve. You can go around the world and identify many different kinds of "traditional music." But when you borrow from "traditional music" forms to fuse with other entirely different applications i.e. "Celtic rock," "world fusion" etc., it's a different matter all together. Many purists see this as a threat to their "traditional music" of choice, and the popularity of this phenomenon can be overwhelming and intimidating. Many of us here on the list have probably experienced clueless punters coming up and asking for
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
just a tiny footnote...we have a book about the emmigration of the irish, and thier music emmigrating with them..a photo from the irish folk society has three young (10 yrs old maybe) boys playing a side-blown wooden flute and two bodhrans, in County Limerick, circa 1900. this is in a book put out by mick maloney,,,"far from the shamrock shore...the story of irish immigration through song." the bodhrans look pretty rough, but definitely bodhrans and tippers...
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by trad2nz
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
did anyone even read posting 82?? don't you have anything better to do??? go play some tunes!!!
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by trad2nz
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
One flute and two bodhrans... wow, bad taste is part of the tradition.
Don't worry arwen... I'm off to the pub for a tune right now.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Haha Jack, I am a strange one. I absolutly love the bodhran.
Johnathan
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Harper_Lad
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I love the bodhran too... just one at a time though.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
"we have a book about the emmigration of the irish, and thier music emmigrating with them..a photo from the irish folk society has three young (10 yrs old maybe) boys playing a side-blown wooden flute and two bodhrans, in County Limerick, circa 1900. this is in a book put out by mick maloney,,,"far from the shamrock shore...the story of irish immigration through song." the bodhrans look pretty rough, but definitely bodhrans and tippers..."
Yes! I have that book too! Those are the Wren Boys. I recently saw the same picture on the front of Teada's new album "Give us a Penny and Let us be Gone" I want to find out more about them. And yeah, that would show that bodhrans were used around the turn of the Century.
-Max
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Fiddlecrazy
I admire your youthful enthusiasm but want to warn you not to get caught up in, mostly esoterroricism (sic). Hang in there friend, you can play in our session anytime.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by wvwhistler
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Hey Zina
You get my vote for the FATtest thread of 2004. What a gal(a)!
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by wvwhistler
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I'd like to thank all the little people, you know who you are...*snort* Wasn't me, really, it's all Seamus Duffy's doing, you know...
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Thanks, Zina. I'm a little person at 5ft 5inches (That's with my hans in the air)
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Sorry, Hans, I meant hanDs.
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
"And lo. Along came another descendant of the African and he weilded a huge shovel. He travelled far and wide until he settled in the farthest western corner of Europe in a land they called Mayo (something to do with sallad dressing I think)."
"And the African's descendant began to dig. And dig. And dig. Until finally he came accross the number FOUR."
"And lo. He did resurect that FOUR in all it's glory. And recieved great honours for doing so. He recieved fame and fortune and even a recording contract."
"But the African's descendant was greedy. Just like his ancesters before him, he pretended that he invented FOUR so he could recoup more royalties. And not only that, without consultation he added strange things to the FOUR that were not in the hole where he found it."
"But this man didn't live long and his strange inventions died with him. The hole where he found the FOUR was filled in and all his fickle fans thought it was lost forever."
"But all was not lost. Unbeknown to the fickle fans, there was a county next door to Mayonaise who never buried their FOUR in the first place. Quite happily they enjoyed their FOUR, even adding their own strange inventions. But the best thing about it was: NOBODY CARED."
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by ...
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
heeehhhheeeeeheeee - Michael!
You are totally cracking me up!
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by bb
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I just had that thing where you think you post something and it's not there after all. It's to do with timing out.
Joyce
No no no - I've got no problem with you asking Michael what kind of snowboard he has - good luck lass, and go for it!
It's a little figure of speech we use over here in God's own country "Never mind that, what about xyz" as a way of saying "I desire more urgently to know about xyz" - it's not a slapdown. In this particular case it was a humourous reference to Michael's jolly mood, suggesting that the "baccy" in his pipe was of more interest at that moment than his snowboard ("I don't know what you're smoking but I want some").
Wouldn't for all the world want to stop you from having a "professionally interested nosey" into Michael's leisures and pleasures.
Big Hug
Dave XXX
# Posted on April 6th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Yes, but that might fall into the categories of "living dangerously" and "too much information", don't you think, Dave? ;)
# Posted on April 7th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
What's the Living Dangerously bit? Giving Joyce a Big Hug?
# Posted on April 7th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Mmmmm, maybe, esp if she thinks you have a recorder in yer pocket.
# Posted on April 7th 2004 by emily_bmore
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
LOL -- no, I meant asking about Michael's leisures and pleasures, though the point is taken in re: to you, Joyce...! *grin*
# Posted on April 7th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Would i count as a person of Low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes if...
I happen to be 6'1"
and play donegal style plinkings and squeakings on tenor banjo and fiddle (and eventually bouzouki)?
I guess I'll just settle for what I've got, eh?
-P
# Posted on April 7th 2004 by Pádraig
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I think Chris Smiths words on this subject really sum this up perfectly:
Ever since the first days of the Celtic folk revival in the 1950s with the Clancy Brothers and Sean O Riada, and the 1960s with the Chieftains, contineing with the wave of 1970s groups like Planxty, the Bothy Band, and Clannad, and now up to the present day, debates have raged over the use of accompaniment in various Celtic styles. Opinions vary about the desirability of adding chordal accompaniment to this essentiall melodic and rhythmic music. Conservative exponents of the "Pure Drop", seeing themselves as defenders of a beautiful tradition, decry the us of any accompaniment, while innovators argue they are making constructive additions to the music.
Without taking sides in such arguments, it seems useful to acknowledge that most viewpients on both sides arise out of a deep love for the idiom's musical expression, and the differences of opinion are subjective. In fact, almost no one wants to destroy the tradition; nearly everyone wants to share it. The great Clare fiddler Martin Hayes said: "I think it's a mistake to divide these issues, as the music is capable of containing all of these [different] parts at once."
It's my own opinion that an artful, sensitive, and imaginitive accompanist can actually contribute enormously to the presentation of Celtic dance melodies. This is not because the melodies, played unaccompanied, are somehow incomplete; on the contrary, these tunes are so strong, so imaginative, and so rich that they can respond beautifully to equally strong, rich and imaginative accompaniment. Moreover, ever since the earliest medieval music in the Celtic nations, the tradition itself has not only survived experiment and innovation, but has often been enriched by such activities.
# Posted on April 7th 2004 by BegF
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Traditonal music has been played on lutes guitars mandolins violins pipes drums for 100s if not 1000s of years... there is no ONE or set of trad. Irish/Scottish instruments! This is all nonsense.
# Posted on April 7th 2004 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Well, something just occured to me...
the Uilleann pipes (which most of us try to emulate the sound of) have drones, and often regulators. Isn't that accompaniment? The same with the p
# Posted on April 7th 2004 by Pádraig
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Tch tch, Maryland. ;) It's not nonsense, exactly, otherwise there wouldn't be so much discussion from the reasonable and intelligent players here, now would there? (Hmmm. Anyone want to take any bets as to whether Irish trad music was ever played on a lute?) Besides, we're not talking about Scottish here, which is largely an entirely different beast, we're talking straight up Irish.
# Posted on April 7th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Well Zina, I bet at a Renaissance Faire somewhere in the USA someone at sometime has at least played an O'carolan tune or two on a lute.....
# Posted on April 7th 2004 by Andee
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
you know, the Duffy could really be railing about show bands, hmmm kids???
# Posted on April 7th 2004 by I_Fel
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
LOL Andee -- I can just hear Seamus Duffy going off on *that*, too! *smirk*
# Posted on April 7th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
"And lo. Gathered together in space were a whole bunch of the African's descendants. And though they were all meant to be singing from the same FOUR, they did nothing chit chat about it all day long."
A: A gnu. A big long wide one that sails beautifuly over the top of acres of lovely powder.
# Posted on April 7th 2004 by ...
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
A gaggle of bodhrans?
Johnathan
# Posted on April 7th 2004 by Harper_Lad
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
This guy is clearly talking out his arse.
PP
# Posted on April 7th 2004 by Pied Piper
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I trust someone has sent a link to this to yer man in Mayo.
I don't know how to do that. But then maybe he's living so far back in the dark ages he wouldn't know what to do with it!
deirdre
# Posted on April 7th 2004 by MollyB
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
He has his opinion and he is entitled to it.
But you know it really doesn't matter what he thinks.
Not being disrespectful to him, because it doesn't matter what I think is traditional either.
Trad is form of folk music, defined exactly by what �the folk� are playing in pubs and kitchens of
(�well I was going to say Ireland, but all over the world). So if in ten years time it�s played
by people banging their heads off the wall then that�s what it is.
No organisation �owns� the music like Ceoltas seem to wish or suggest.
If it�s �owned� by anybody it�s owned by the musicians who play it, and what they play
and how they play define it.
And if a guy in Mayo says otherwise, that�s grand with me, because it�s an isolated case and
I know that the best fiddlers/pipers/flute players in the world seek out good guitar accompaniment
because they know the value of it�..
Martin Hayes&DenisCahill
Matt Molloy&Paul Brady
Paddy Keenan&Arty McGlynn
Seamus Begly&Steve Cooney
Low self-esteem and undiscerning musical taste ? Oh Please.
I think I�ll go join Guitars Anonymous.
# Posted on April 8th 2004 by BegF
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Here in W V I have heard ITM music played on the Steel Drum as background music in a restaurant. I wonder what Seamus Duffy would say to that innovation? I live in the same town as the inventor of the Steel Drum which is more melodic than a bodhran, but not as versatile as a guitar. There's even a steel drum band, but they don't play ITM. Just as well.
# Posted on April 8th 2004 by wvwhistler
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Hey guys - how about this - after an email I sent to the Western People:
Danny,
Grateful thanks for your mail and letting me know about 'thesession'
website which I was unaware of before now.
My God, I was not aware that this had become such a major issue for debate
among followers of traditional music! There is a fascinating response from
so many people. Some of it was brilliant .... I was in stitches laughing at
the witty comments!
I will probably devote a page of the Western People to some of the comments
on the website in Tuesday week's issue (20th April). I will let Seamus
Duffy know about this website and the huge interest generated by his
comments.
Danny, thanks again for letting me know about this website. I knew it was a
topical story when I wrote it .... but I didn't think it would generate
such a debate.
Kind regards,
Michael Commins.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Michael Commins, Murneen, Claremorris, Co. Mayo, Ireland.
Western People journalist.
Fame at last for us guys eh?
:~}
# Posted on April 8th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Tim Britton does a great hornpipe with steel drums on his CD. While I'm no big fan of his piping, I think his whistle playing is fine.All credit to him for combining it with the sound of steel drums; it ceates a lovely mellow sound.
Con
# Posted on April 8th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Hey, Gwon moy Sahn, as they say in Saarff Lahndan. Nice one phat-man. There goes my chance of ever competing in an All Ireland final again! ;
# Posted on April 8th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Bye folks,
i'm off to Italia in the morning. Will be playing at a friend's wedding on Saturday week. See ya'll in 10 days.
Be good till I get back.
joe
# Posted on April 8th 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Say 'hi' to the Pope for me, Joe. I know the weekend will be busy for him, but tell him he's in my thoughts!
PS Bravo Danny! I was going to write long entry on the Hennessy/Doyle effect of guitar backing on teenagers & other women with low thresholds of 'esteem & taste,' but I'll just hold on to that for the moment, eh?
# Posted on April 8th 2004 by emily_bmore
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Hop, little Easter bunnies, hop, hop, hop.
# Posted on April 8th 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Happy Easter everyone, even Mayomen - I'm off to the Roscommon Fleadh in STrokestown, hope I don't meet any guitar players or bodhran players of low esteem and undiscerning musical taste. Have a good week-end all
deirdre
# Posted on April 8th 2004 by MollyB
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
And now for a response from a guitar and octave mandolin-playing Yank:
Mr. O'Duffy's opinion only goes to show that everyone has an opinion. I'm sure someone said the same thing when fiddles were introduced into Irish trad in the 18th century, or pipes in the 19th, or even pianos in the 20th. I think he also forgets that Irish trad was languishing badly in the 1950s and 60s, or at least so "pure" that relatively few people were learning or playing it until young groups like De Danann or the Bothy Band gave it new life and a new audience in part by bringing new instruments to the party. So, it sounds like Mr. O'Duffy is being a bit selective about the history of ITM. The question that really should have been asked of him is "What is your real point here?"
Regarding low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes, well, I'll match my talent, esteem, and taste against Mr. O'Duffy's any day of the week, as well as my respect for tradition and what can be done with it. ITM is bigger than he is, and it will outlast this tempest in a teapot.
# Posted on April 8th 2004 by Audeamus
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I was reading this thread and despite my resistance to forming an opinion of my own, somehow found one emerging, unexpectedly, like a bodhran at an all-fiddler session.
ITM is scaleable: it scales nicely, up or down in numbers, its musical attributes can be subtle and delicate or brash and vigorous.
So much depends on the weather, the mood of the moment, your own emotions, that "fixed rules" don't ever seem appropriate. Circumstances dictate what is "right" and what is "wrong". Perhaps there are players who only want the melody and its intrinsic rhythm - I can surely enjoy that as a listener.
In a home or kitchen session, I say less is more, the fewer the better. But in a noisy pub session, so much of nuance and subtlety gets lost to the din that the guitar or bouzouki really are needed for the steady rhythm and harmonic foundation they provide.
# Posted on April 8th 2004 by Laughtonb
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Heh. Welcome to The Dark Side, Mr. Commins.
# Posted on April 8th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
In fairness to Comhaltas, it did actually have a massive effect on teaching and encouraging the music in the 60s and 70s, in parallel with the emergence of the supergroups. Many of the biggest names who started playing then were involved with it, and lots of people got to know each other (and played in some mighty sessions) at fleadhs and other events. It had massive grassroots support, especially in the UK and US, and I know quite a few musicians who devoted a couple of decades of their lives to teaching the younger generation ... for no financial reward.
I'm sure there are still many dedicated people in Comhaltas now, but it seems to be a case of lions led by donkeys, and a lot of folks just walked when all the politics and BS kicked in. And IMHO, the idea of a single body like Comhaltas "owning" the music is ludicrous
# Posted on April 8th 2004 by Just a person
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Jaysus, Zina! What a thread! Makes my head spin. When I got down to about comment 52 I had a million things to say. I was looking for fuel for debates with a musician I am playing with about what is or is not the "real", "original", or "traditional" way to play The Music. (Those are all his words, not mine!) Ironically, what do you think he plays? That's right! Guitar! Where does he get his idea of what is "original" or "traditional"? That's right! His CD collection! Chock-a-block with Lunasa, Martin Hayes, Dannu, and about a dozen groups who have succumbed to the guitar / bazouki, bodhran / spoons / bones, pipes / fiddle / flute / banjo model of ITM. I try to tell him if he wants to be a purist he should burn all his sheet music, Throw out the CD collection, move out to the country, plant some potatos and get a dairy cow or two, then show up in somebody's barn every second saturday, hoping some of the locals will drop in for a set dance or two!
# Posted on April 11th 2004 by Kerri Brown
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I guess we're all outlaws in the eyes of Posse Comhaltas.
# Posted on April 11th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I still feel that this is nonsense... or maybe I should say specifically that the original assertion is... and Zina, yes the lute has had many forms and functions in IRISH music... the fiddle is even a "new" instrument in comparison to the depth of the tradition... and I KNOW that most ITM's will preach about the differences between it and Scottish music but in an ethnomusical sense there just isn't a documented record od PURELY IRISH tunes... this whole thing is just scratching the surface of the music and it's depth.
# Posted on April 12th 2004 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
Kerri! Love hearing from you, chick! Let me know what's up with you.
Maryland, perhaps in Irish music, but not much in Irish traditional music, and specifically session music, which is supposedly what this site is all about. Scottish and Irish music are two entirely different styles. They're played entirely different. Perhaps in your style they aren't, but Scottish and Irish musicians don't feel they play the same way, that's for sure.
# Posted on April 12th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Where are you, all you "people of low esteem and undiscerning musical tastes"?
I agree with your post. You're right. This site is about session music... which is a development in trad. music.
# Posted on April 13th 2004 by The Merry Highlander