Being but a mediocre player of the devil's wooden box (not the devil's plumbing experiment, sadly), and wanting to focus on the Donegal fiddle tradition and style, I'd like all advice you can give me. So far I've only been able to get my hands on Altan, and that slowly, and yes, I do realize that I need John Doherty's recordings.
I'm also going to try and take the odd class from Scoiltrad, and I just got the freebie by Glackin...
Also, I've run through the archives, so I've at least tried to find stuff, but If Will and others would be willing to re-do something they've said
But if anyone has any bowing patterns besides the up doun, up doun, etc, and the inevitable trebles (which I do need help on as it lies)... so help!!!!
Questions: Neily Boyle, Ciaran Tourish, Paul O'Shaughnessy - advisable to listen to? Any others?
Just how do you treble? I've looked and looked at the things that have been written, and I still can't figure out how to get the fingers a-twitchin, cos my whole arm just wants to fire....
I've also heard that Doherty doesn't just use the single stroke bowing, but uses other sorts of bow patterns, so if you all would be willing to 'show' me examples of Dohertian bowings on highlands, and the like, I would be most appreciative.
Pádraig, it's not easy to convey the nuances of a style using nothing more than words over the net. But I'm sure you'll get some good insights and advice here. I'm no expert on the styles of Donegal, but I'll share what I know.
First off, do hunt down all the John Doherty recordings you can find. He was the Johnny Appleseed of Donegal tunes, so he's a great source for the repertoire. And I believe you need to be familiar with Doherty's settings of tunes to understand what you're hearing when you listen to more recent players do the same tunes.
So, once you've ingested a bunch of Doherty, go back and listen to Altan, and get yourself some cds by Tommy Peoples, Paddy Glackin, and Vincent Campbell (they're all good). Other good contemporary Donegal fiddlers (besides the ones you've already mentioned) to look for are James Byrne, Kevin Glackin, Bríd Harper, and Dermot McLaughlin.
You'll find that some Donegal fiddlers keep a fairly stiff wrist on their bow arm (more so than in most other regions, I'd say), while others are more limber. There's also some range in how much slurring of notes different Donegal fiddlers do. Some single bow *a lot,* while others more frequently slur two or three notes together. Where those slurs occur really is up to the individual fiddler, but it's fairly common to slur from the last note of a bar onto the first note of the next bar, and also--in reels--from the fourth note to the fifth (that is, from the last eighth note in the first group of four onto the first eighth note in the second group of four). Often, you'll hear Donegal players alternate these slurs--if they slur onto the first note in a bar, they might not slur again until going from the 4th to 5th note in the next bar.
Most highlands work well with a lot of single bowing (up-down-up-down, etc.). Some (Charlie O'Neill's comes to mind--it's in the tune database here) lend themselves to more slurring. The only way I know of to teach this sense of when to do what is to listen to a lot of Donegal players. The best rule of thumb I can offer is to say that you can get a more 'northern' feel if you emphasize the first downbeat in each measure.
And focus on a good strong tone, no matter what else your bow is doing. Most Donegal tunes aren't shy about their dance music heritage. Keep a solid rhythm and don't be afraid to let the fiddle ring.
As for bowed triplets or trebles, be patient with yourself. It takes most fiddlers a good 6 to 12 months to find triplets that sound good, and another lifetime to get them consistently crisp, clear, and well-timed. Yes, most people start with a fairly big hiccup of their whole forearm and hand, and gradually reduce this down to a mere bobble of the index, thumb, and maybe a little bit of wrist. Some Donegal players have a more energetic triplet than others, allowing more of their hand to bounce, so this works in your favor.
The other part of getting the triplets to sound authentic is knowing where and how to use them. And the key here is to play some chromatic triplets, where the pitch changes from one note to the next. (Just what you wanted to hear--that triplets can be made even _more_ difficult! Consider this example, in the opening of the Fermanagh Highland:
K: D
dB | A2 FA AddB | A2 FD EFGB | A .....
can also be played with a chromatic treble in the 2nd bar:
dB | A2 FA AddB | A2 FD (3EEF GB | A .....
(Incidentally, I would typically single bow this whole phrase. Might as well get comfortable with that now....)
Hope this helps. Keep asking questions, the more detailed the better.
Ooh, I know the recording for you! "Fiddlesticks: Irish Traditional Music from Donegal" It's one of my favorite albums. It has some really great players such as Ciaran Tourish, Dermot McLaughlin, Tommy Peoples, Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh, Seamus and Kevin Glackin, and Liz Doherty. An excelent example of the Donegal style. Also check out Liz Doherty's playing with Nomos. I also have an excelent duet album by Frankie Kennedy and Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh which I highly recomend.
I wish I could settle on a particular style. I go back forth between Cape Breton and Sligo (I know, totally different!) but I love Donegal too.
Max, that recording is a classic! Someone "borrowed" that tape from me years ago. Can't remember who, and it's obvious they liked it since I haven't got it back. I seem to remember Seamus Gibson playing on that one - Tommy People's nephew - and he plays in a similar style. Weren't there also a few Shetland fiddlers - Tom Deyell and his brother? Always thought that name was strange but it turns out there's an island called Yell! I think Paula Doohan was on there as well, another great Donegal style fiddle player.
I first heard true Donegal fiddle when a friend of mine, Roisín Dillon, who now lives and plays in Florida, brought a tape back from the classes at Glencolmcille. That's the place to go if you want to learn Donegal style, and the sessions during the week are legendary!
Hey, just noticed that Roisín's name is listed as a member of Cherish the Ladies! If anyone meets her at a gig, say hello from me. She would be more than helpful with info on playing
Also The Brass Fiddle, lots of good Donegal stuff on there. re: Ciaran Tourish, Paul O'Shaughnessy - absolutely yes, Tourish is a real wizard. I've taken workshops from Paul at the Frankie Kennedy school, his style is clean and a bit more straightforward (or maybe he's just really simplifying for the benefit of the class).
Someone else posted (somewhere, can't remember where) that the actual motions aren't as important as the *effect*. Some of the players use slurs here and there but the sound always has the pulse, the strong downbeat that you associate with a strong downbow. You can punctuate the notes using a cut (grace note) or just stopping the bow and then continuing again, and it will still have the effect of a bow change.
There's been a fair amount of cross-pollination of Cape Breton and Donegal music, so again you don't have to take an either-or approach to that. A lot of Jerry Holland tunes have taken hold in Donegal.
Padraig, I'm not sure if you are a festival hound like some of us on this website, but Frankie Kennedy Week up in Donegal every year during the Christmas week is fantastic for Donegal Fiddle Music. Dermot McLaughlin who was at FKW will be teaching at Irish Arts Week in the Catskills (East Durham, NY, USA) this July.
Nothing like having a week long class with a Donegal Fiddle Master if that's what you're into.
Conan, yes Seamus Gibson also plays on it, as well as Paula Doohan and some Shetland fiddlers. I think the event that they recorded was a Donegal/Shetland fiddle festival, but mainly Donegal. It really is an awesome recording!
Pádraig, it occurs to me that one way to learn the bowed triplets is to start with the large motion--a hard, fast contraction of the muscle atop your forearm that goes hard when you cock your wrist (so the back of your hand lifts towards your forearm). That's how I first learned them, but the triplets didn't come clean and sound right until I learned to concentrate on the smaller motion of my hand and index finger, rather than 'blocking' that big forearm muscle. Still--it might be the path that works for you. There is a sense that the forearm just *stops*, hard, on an up bow, and then the hand sort of bounces down-up-down to produce the triplet. The advantage to thinking about it this way is that you'll see the importance of swinging into the triplet with a long-ish, momemtum-filled up bow. That's the wind up, like the fishing rod swinging back behind you before you cast forward. So you do this up bow, and then in about the middle of the bow, abruptly stop and let your hand bounce down-up-down.
Short of that, it *really really* helps to _watch_ someone do it, to see the actual motion and hear the result.
Re the highly recomended gathering of Doherty recordings...what would be the most highly recommended album to search out, as well as some good places to get it for low prices (I am but a poor student, after all)
My vote would be for two albums: "Johnny Doherty" (Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann), and "The Floating Bow." Try Amazon.com, ebay, the usual. I found a Doherty cd in the clearance bin at a Borders musci store once for $4.99 USD. You just never know.
Donegal Fiddles
Donegal Fiddles
Being but a mediocre player of the devil's wooden box (not the devil's plumbing experiment, sadly), and wanting to focus on the Donegal fiddle tradition and style, I'd like all advice you can give me. So far I've only been able to get my hands on Altan, and that slowly, and yes, I do realize that I need John Doherty's recordings.
I'm also going to try and take the odd class from Scoiltrad, and I just got the freebie by Glackin...
Also, I've run through the archives, so I've at least tried to find stuff, but If Will and others would be willing to re-do something they've said
But if anyone has any bowing patterns besides the up doun, up doun, etc, and the inevitable trebles (which I do need help on as it lies)... so help!!!!
Questions: Neily Boyle, Ciaran Tourish, Paul O'Shaughnessy - advisable to listen to? Any others?
Just how do you treble? I've looked and looked at the things that have been written, and I still can't figure out how to get the fingers a-twitchin, cos my whole arm just wants to fire....
I've also heard that Doherty doesn't just use the single stroke bowing, but uses other sorts of bow patterns, so if you all would be willing to 'show' me examples of Dohertian bowings on highlands, and the like, I would be most appreciative.
pádraig
# Posted on March 29th 2004 by Pádraig
Re: Donegal Fiddles
Pádraig, it's not easy to convey the nuances of a style using nothing more than words over the net. But I'm sure you'll get some good insights and advice here. I'm no expert on the styles of Donegal, but I'll share what I know.
Consider this example, in the opening of the Fermanagh Highland:
First off, do hunt down all the John Doherty recordings you can find. He was the Johnny Appleseed of Donegal tunes, so he's a great source for the repertoire. And I believe you need to be familiar with Doherty's settings of tunes to understand what you're hearing when you listen to more recent players do the same tunes.
So, once you've ingested a bunch of Doherty, go back and listen to Altan, and get yourself some cds by Tommy Peoples, Paddy Glackin, and Vincent Campbell (they're all good). Other good contemporary Donegal fiddlers (besides the ones you've already mentioned) to look for are James Byrne, Kevin Glackin, Bríd Harper, and Dermot McLaughlin.
You'll find that some Donegal fiddlers keep a fairly stiff wrist on their bow arm (more so than in most other regions, I'd say), while others are more limber. There's also some range in how much slurring of notes different Donegal fiddlers do. Some single bow *a lot,* while others more frequently slur two or three notes together. Where those slurs occur really is up to the individual fiddler, but it's fairly common to slur from the last note of a bar onto the first note of the next bar, and also--in reels--from the fourth note to the fifth (that is, from the last eighth note in the first group of four onto the first eighth note in the second group of four). Often, you'll hear Donegal players alternate these slurs--if they slur onto the first note in a bar, they might not slur again until going from the 4th to 5th note in the next bar.
Most highlands work well with a lot of single bowing (up-down-up-down, etc.). Some (Charlie O'Neill's comes to mind--it's in the tune database here) lend themselves to more slurring. The only way I know of to teach this sense of when to do what is to listen to a lot of Donegal players. The best rule of thumb I can offer is to say that you can get a more 'northern' feel if you emphasize the first downbeat in each measure.
And focus on a good strong tone, no matter what else your bow is doing. Most Donegal tunes aren't shy about their dance music heritage. Keep a solid rhythm and don't be afraid to let the fiddle ring.
As for bowed triplets or trebles, be patient with yourself. It takes most fiddlers a good 6 to 12 months to find triplets that sound good, and another lifetime to get them consistently crisp, clear, and well-timed. Yes, most people start with a fairly big hiccup of their whole forearm and hand, and gradually reduce this down to a mere bobble of the index, thumb, and maybe a little bit of wrist. Some Donegal players have a more energetic triplet than others, allowing more of their hand to bounce, so this works in your favor.
The other part of getting the triplets to sound authentic is knowing where and how to use them. And the key here is to play some chromatic triplets, where the pitch changes from one note to the next. (Just what you wanted to hear--that triplets can be made even _more_ difficult!
K: D
dB | A2 FA AddB | A2 FD EFGB | A .....
can also be played with a chromatic treble in the 2nd bar:
dB | A2 FA AddB | A2 FD (3EEF GB | A .....
(Incidentally, I would typically single bow this whole phrase. Might as well get comfortable with that now....)
Hope this helps. Keep asking questions, the more detailed the better.
# Posted on March 29th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Donegal Fiddles
P.S. If you haven't already, check out the Donegal Fiddler web page: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/6464/hmpg.html
# Posted on March 29th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Donegal Fiddles
Ooh, I know the recording for you! "Fiddlesticks: Irish Traditional Music from Donegal" It's one of my favorite albums. It has some really great players such as Ciaran Tourish, Dermot McLaughlin, Tommy Peoples, Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh, Seamus and Kevin Glackin, and Liz Doherty. An excelent example of the Donegal style. Also check out Liz Doherty's playing with Nomos. I also have an excelent duet album by Frankie Kennedy and Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh which I highly recomend.
I wish I could settle on a particular style. I go back forth between Cape Breton and Sligo (I know, totally different!) but I love Donegal too.
Hope I was helpful.
-Max
# Posted on March 29th 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Donegal Fiddles
Max, that recording is a classic! Someone "borrowed" that tape from me years ago. Can't remember who, and it's obvious they liked it since I haven't got it back. I seem to remember Seamus Gibson playing on that one - Tommy People's nephew - and he plays in a similar style. Weren't there also a few Shetland fiddlers - Tom Deyell and his brother? Always thought that name was strange but it turns out there's an island called Yell! I think Paula Doohan was on there as well, another great Donegal style fiddle player.
I first heard true Donegal fiddle when a friend of mine, Roisín Dillon, who now lives and plays in Florida, brought a tape back from the classes at Glencolmcille. That's the place to go if you want to learn Donegal style, and the sessions during the week are legendary!
Conán
# Posted on March 29th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Donegal Fiddles
Hey, just noticed that Roisín's name is listed as a member of Cherish the Ladies! If anyone meets her at a gig, say hello from me. She would be more than helpful with info on playing
# Posted on March 29th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Donegal Fiddles
Also The Brass Fiddle, lots of good Donegal stuff on there. re: Ciaran Tourish, Paul O'Shaughnessy - absolutely yes, Tourish is a real wizard. I've taken workshops from Paul at the Frankie Kennedy school, his style is clean and a bit more straightforward (or maybe he's just really simplifying for the benefit of the class).
Someone else posted (somewhere, can't remember where) that the actual motions aren't as important as the *effect*. Some of the players use slurs here and there but the sound always has the pulse, the strong downbeat that you associate with a strong downbow. You can punctuate the notes using a cut (grace note) or just stopping the bow and then continuing again, and it will still have the effect of a bow change.
There's been a fair amount of cross-pollination of Cape Breton and Donegal music, so again you don't have to take an either-or approach to that. A lot of Jerry Holland tunes have taken hold in Donegal.
# Posted on March 29th 2004 by HighlandSun
Re: Donegal Fiddles
Padraig, I'm not sure if you are a festival hound like some of us on this website, but Frankie Kennedy Week up in Donegal every year during the Christmas week is fantastic for Donegal Fiddle Music. Dermot McLaughlin who was at FKW will be teaching at Irish Arts Week in the Catskills (East Durham, NY, USA) this July.
Nothing like having a week long class with a Donegal Fiddle Master if that's what you're into.
Joyce
# Posted on March 30th 2004 by JMH
Re: Donegal Fiddles
Conan - Yell is usually spelt without an exclamation mark. But maybe it's just your Ulster twang.
# Posted on March 30th 2004 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Donegal Fiddles
Conan, yes Seamus Gibson also plays on it, as well as Paula Doohan and some Shetland fiddlers. I think the event that they recorded was a Donegal/Shetland fiddle festival, but mainly Donegal. It really is an awesome recording!
-Max
# Posted on March 30th 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Donegal Fiddles
Pádraig, it occurs to me that one way to learn the bowed triplets is to start with the large motion--a hard, fast contraction of the muscle atop your forearm that goes hard when you cock your wrist (so the back of your hand lifts towards your forearm). That's how I first learned them, but the triplets didn't come clean and sound right until I learned to concentrate on the smaller motion of my hand and index finger, rather than 'blocking' that big forearm muscle. Still--it might be the path that works for you. There is a sense that the forearm just *stops*, hard, on an up bow, and then the hand sort of bounces down-up-down to produce the triplet. The advantage to thinking about it this way is that you'll see the importance of swinging into the triplet with a long-ish, momemtum-filled up bow. That's the wind up, like the fishing rod swinging back behind you before you cast forward. So you do this up bow, and then in about the middle of the bow, abruptly stop and let your hand bounce down-up-down.
Short of that, it *really really* helps to _watch_ someone do it, to see the actual motion and hear the result.
# Posted on March 30th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Donegal Fiddles
David, I was using the exclamation mark to exclaim!!!!!! :¬)
# Posted on March 30th 2004 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Donegal Fiddles
Re the highly recomended gathering of Doherty recordings...what would be the most highly recommended album to search out, as well as some good places to get it for low prices (I am but a poor student, after all)
# Posted on April 1st 2004 by Pádraig
Re: Donegal Fiddles
My vote would be for two albums: "Johnny Doherty" (Comhaltas Ceoltóirí Éireann), and "The Floating Bow." Try Amazon.com, ebay, the usual. I found a Doherty cd in the clearance bin at a Borders musci store once for $4.99 USD. You just never know.
# Posted on April 1st 2004 by Will Harmon
Check out the 'comments' for Mazurkas & similar Donegal fare
While you can't always trust the listings under the names of tunes, the listing of some recordings find their way into the 'Comments'.
# Posted on July 28th 2004 by ceolachan