OK, so I'm finally getting the hang of learning tunes by ear. A big help was "Audacity" an OpenSource PC program to slow MP3's down and loop selected sections. I put a link to this fine piece of software on The Session's abc programs area under Links.
I've managed, in the last week, to learn two new tunes this way; "Two Mile Bridge" -- from Natalie MacMaster's Live CD and "Old Joe's Jig", the first jig from the Kilfenora Set on The Chieftains' "Water From The Well" CD. I fell in love both of these tunes the first time I heard them, and now I can play along with the CD and it (finally) sounds right.
However, when I try making them into abc (using abcmus) I can't seem to get the rhythm or timing right; the notes are all there but it never sounds like what I can play or what I hear on the CD.
Any tips for getting it right?
I guess it doesn't help that when *reading* sheet music I have a very hard time figuring out rhythms without hearing it, first....
Hmmm. Well, it depends on what you're trying to do with your abc. You'll note that often musos tend to use the sheet music as more of a memory aid than an actual transcription of the tune, and so don't bother trying to get the swing and lilt of the thing on paper. If it was me, I'd try and cultivate an e-mail correspondence with Will Harmon, because you know, he just doesn't have enough to do with his life and he's a sucker for a "please" as well as liking to deal with this sort of thing.
Anyway, congrats on starting to learn tunes by ear! It's always a huge step on the road to becoming a good player of this stuff. Keep it up!
Len, this comes down to practice. Speaking as someone who had exactly the same problem, learning to write down tunes is difficult at first, but comes along quickly if you do a couple a day or week. It just takes a while to absorb the rules and terminology of how music is written. The other side of it is that learning to write down music will help immensely with your ability to read the stuff. I'm not much of a reader myself, but focusing on writing and reading has helped me to absorb tunes by ear faster as well.
You might try sitting down with a couple of tunes you already know, and analyzing the sheet music or ABC to see exactly how every note fits with the music, to the point where you can *see* the beats on the page. Combine that with reading a couple of new tunes (even if you don't want to learn them) every day, and it will all begin to make sense. I did this by reading through a couple of pages of O'Neill's every day for a while, but that method may not be to everyone's liking.
Zina's right. (I can't comment on Will Harmon's life though).
What do you really want to do?
Play well on the whistle (or other instrument)? or write tunes in a way which a computer will play well?
For example: look at the way hornpipes are written these days - they used to be written dotted to show the rhythm 1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and, but then people realised that it was easier to write a steady 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 notation, but put the word hornpipe at the top. If you put the modern notation through a mincer to produce an abc it would not have the hornpipe rhythm, yet give it to a human player and the right sound comes out.
If you want to use the abc's to learn from, then just like with notation the exact accuracy of what is written is not all that important - it's an aide memoire rather than a rendition of the tune.
As far as a memory aid, I'm fine with just writing out the abc notes on a sheet of paper. When I learn from sheet music or abc, all I'm looking for is "where to put my fingers" -- all the rest; rhythm, lilt, etc. comes from listening.
However, what I'd like to do is share my transcriptions of these tunes with the folks here at The Session ... right now, I'd be embarrased by how far from the actual thing they sound (even though I'm pretty sure all of the right notes are there).
I have an idea of importing the tunes into a musical score editor (like Melody Assistant) where it will be easier to manipulate the time values of each note....
I also might bug Will ... he's been very helpful in the past!
Me? I'm never busy. I'm a _writer_ remember? Laze around all day, fantasizing about royalty checks, dreaming up complex characters, plotting my next best seller...but never before noon, and I take lunch at 12:30, then a walk in the woods, and then there's polishing my pulitzer prizes....
Sigh. :-|
Len, if the main thing you're hoping to do is submit tunes here, keep 'em simple. Don't worry about how the midi sounds, or even notating every nuance of the timing. Trad players know not to play jigs and reels and hornpipes straight as written. Granted, with polkas and strathspeys, you basically have to notate the short-and-long of it, but no one expects (or even wants) you to show the swing of a reel or jig in the dots.
In short, notating every nuance of timing clutters up the page. It's best to leave the sense of swing, etc., up to the individual player. We understand the convention of taking a tune written straight and adding the lilt. Less experienced musos just need to listen to more music before they try to learn tunes from the dots.
As for putting those nuances in for a more sophisticated computer rendition, what's the point? It's already been done (player pianos). So why spend your time teaching a pc's sound card to play dance-worthy tunes when you could be learning the tunes yourself?
All this said, I'm always more than happy to look at abcs--from anyone--before they get posted here to offer whatever help/perspective I can. As I'm sure other members are as well.
Hey, today is my treat to myself, because I can, for once. I put off two writing assignments while the whole St. Pat's rush was on, so I decided to get it taken care of at the same time I treat my poor old aching body to a rest.
I am sitting buck naked in bed with the laptop, my fiddle and bow on one side, a tray with a steaming bowl of carbs (rice, corn, mushrooms and chicken) on the other, a Woodchuck cider, and Eliot Grasso's new cd on.
Let's hear it for technology! Life is pretty damned good. If I get the two reviews done, I may even go dig in the garden a bit.
I'm not even trying to get the lilt or swing in the abc ... just to sound *something* like the tune I can play. Written out straight with nothing other than the notes and time signature, it's obvious that something is amiss. Either I've included ornaments and gracenotes as actual notes or I've missed some triplets and they're getting played like eighth notes....
Believe me, I don't want to be any fancier than I have to be!
LOL -- it's more Eliot Grasso he has to worry about. Man, this kid is GOOD. Len, send the thing to Will and ask him to listen to it and tell you what he thinks. That ought to tell you everything you really need to know.
Len, click on my screen name to get to my membership profile, and send me an email with the abcs for a tune you've transcribed, and I'll gladly give you any feedback I can on how to clean them up. Better that than annoy Jeremy with gobbledigook in the database....
If you really want to see what live playing really looks like when transcribed with 100% accuracy as dots on the page you need go no further than feeding the live music (or a recording thereof) into an application such as Intelliscore Polyphonic, which will do the job for you. I'll guarantee that the dots will look like something from a modern avant garde composer, and will be equally unplayable.
To be fair to Intelliscore and its like, though, it needs very careful control and the right sort of input to produce acceptable results.
I'd forgotten about these -- Peter Laban and some others have done some great note for note transcriptions at http://www.rogermillington.com/tunetoc/index.html -- take a look, it's pretty interesting!
If you have a midi piano, you might look into Music write plus which is software by voyetra. I have the same concern(wanting to share great tunes with musician friends who may not all have the same cd collection as myself) , and experimented with this for awhile til my computer crashed. not related of course. If everything is set up correctly and you play in time, it comes out about 95 % right. only trouble is that it's not compatable with windows xp (my new computer), and the newer software is too expensive and more complicated.
Learning By Ear To Transcribing
Learning By Ear To Transcribing
OK, so I'm finally getting the hang of learning tunes by ear. A big help was "Audacity" an OpenSource PC program to slow MP3's down and loop selected sections. I put a link to this fine piece of software on The Session's abc programs area under Links.
I've managed, in the last week, to learn two new tunes this way; "Two Mile Bridge" -- from Natalie MacMaster's Live CD and "Old Joe's Jig", the first jig from the Kilfenora Set on The Chieftains' "Water From The Well" CD. I fell in love both of these tunes the first time I heard them, and now I can play along with the CD and it (finally) sounds right.
However, when I try making them into abc (using abcmus) I can't seem to get the rhythm or timing right; the notes are all there but it never sounds like what I can play or what I hear on the CD.
Any tips for getting it right?
I guess it doesn't help that when *reading* sheet music I have a very hard time figuring out rhythms without hearing it, first....
# Posted on March 19th 2004 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: Learning By Ear To Transcribing
Hmmm. Well, it depends on what you're trying to do with your abc. You'll note that often musos tend to use the sheet music as more of a memory aid than an actual transcription of the tune, and so don't bother trying to get the swing and lilt of the thing on paper. If it was me, I'd try and cultivate an e-mail correspondence with Will Harmon, because you know, he just doesn't have enough to do with his life and he's a sucker for a "please" as well as liking to deal with this sort of thing.
Anyway, congrats on starting to learn tunes by ear! It's always a huge step on the road to becoming a good player of this stuff. Keep it up!
# Posted on March 19th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning By Ear To Transcribing
Len, this comes down to practice. Speaking as someone who had exactly the same problem, learning to write down tunes is difficult at first, but comes along quickly if you do a couple a day or week. It just takes a while to absorb the rules and terminology of how music is written. The other side of it is that learning to write down music will help immensely with your ability to read the stuff. I'm not much of a reader myself, but focusing on writing and reading has helped me to absorb tunes by ear faster as well.
You might try sitting down with a couple of tunes you already know, and analyzing the sheet music or ABC to see exactly how every note fits with the music, to the point where you can *see* the beats on the page. Combine that with reading a couple of new tunes (even if you don't want to learn them) every day, and it will all begin to make sense. I did this by reading through a couple of pages of O'Neill's every day for a while, but that method may not be to everyone's liking.
# Posted on March 19th 2004 by Gzeg
Re: Learning By Ear To Transcribing
Zina's right. (I can't comment on Will Harmon's life though).
What do you really want to do?
Play well on the whistle (or other instrument)? or write tunes in a way which a computer will play well?
For example: look at the way hornpipes are written these days - they used to be written dotted to show the rhythm 1-and-2-and-3-and-4-and, but then people realised that it was easier to write a steady 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8 notation, but put the word hornpipe at the top. If you put the modern notation through a mincer to produce an abc it would not have the hornpipe rhythm, yet give it to a human player and the right sound comes out.
If you want to use the abc's to learn from, then just like with notation the exact accuracy of what is written is not all that important - it's an aide memoire rather than a rendition of the tune.
Dave ;o)
# Posted on March 19th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: Learning By Ear To Transcribing
As far as a memory aid, I'm fine with just writing out the abc notes on a sheet of paper. When I learn from sheet music or abc, all I'm looking for is "where to put my fingers" -- all the rest; rhythm, lilt, etc. comes from listening.
However, what I'd like to do is share my transcriptions of these tunes with the folks here at The Session ... right now, I'd be embarrased by how far from the actual thing they sound (even though I'm pretty sure all of the right notes are there).
I have an idea of importing the tunes into a musical score editor (like Melody Assistant) where it will be easier to manipulate the time values of each note....
I also might bug Will ... he's been very helpful in the past!
# Posted on March 19th 2004 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: Learning By Ear To Transcribing
Me? I'm never busy. I'm a _writer_ remember? Laze around all day, fantasizing about royalty checks, dreaming up complex characters, plotting my next best seller...but never before noon, and I take lunch at 12:30, then a walk in the woods, and then there's polishing my pulitzer prizes....
Sigh. :-|
Len, if the main thing you're hoping to do is submit tunes here, keep 'em simple. Don't worry about how the midi sounds, or even notating every nuance of the timing. Trad players know not to play jigs and reels and hornpipes straight as written. Granted, with polkas and strathspeys, you basically have to notate the short-and-long of it, but no one expects (or even wants) you to show the swing of a reel or jig in the dots.
In short, notating every nuance of timing clutters up the page. It's best to leave the sense of swing, etc., up to the individual player. We understand the convention of taking a tune written straight and adding the lilt. Less experienced musos just need to listen to more music before they try to learn tunes from the dots.
As for putting those nuances in for a more sophisticated computer rendition, what's the point? It's already been done (player pianos). So why spend your time teaching a pc's sound card to play dance-worthy tunes when you could be learning the tunes yourself?
All this said, I'm always more than happy to look at abcs--from anyone--before they get posted here to offer whatever help/perspective I can. As I'm sure other members are as well.
# Posted on March 19th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning By Ear To Transcribing
Hey, today is my treat to myself, because I can, for once. I put off two writing assignments while the whole St. Pat's rush was on, so I decided to get it taken care of at the same time I treat my poor old aching body to a rest.
Life is pretty damned good. If I get the two reviews done, I may even go dig in the garden a bit.
I am sitting buck naked in bed with the laptop, my fiddle and bow on one side, a tray with a steaming bowl of carbs (rice, corn, mushrooms and chicken) on the other, a Woodchuck cider, and Eliot Grasso's new cd on.
Let's hear it for technology!
# Posted on March 19th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning By Ear To Transcribing
Mind you put on a robe before hoeing that row of cabbages....
# Posted on March 19th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning By Ear To Transcribing
Oh, and you better not let Petey catch you like this with Mr. Laptop.
# Posted on March 19th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning By Ear To Transcribing
Will,
I'm not even trying to get the lilt or swing in the abc ... just to sound *something* like the tune I can play. Written out straight with nothing other than the notes and time signature, it's obvious that something is amiss. Either I've included ornaments and gracenotes as actual notes or I've missed some triplets and they're getting played like eighth notes....
Believe me, I don't want to be any fancier than I have to be!
# Posted on March 19th 2004 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: Learning By Ear To Transcribing
LOL -- it's more Eliot Grasso he has to worry about. Man, this kid is GOOD. Len, send the thing to Will and ask him to listen to it and tell you what he thinks. That ought to tell you everything you really need to know.
# Posted on March 19th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning By Ear To Transcribing
Len, click on my screen name to get to my membership profile, and send me an email with the abcs for a tune you've transcribed, and I'll gladly give you any feedback I can on how to clean them up. Better that than annoy Jeremy with gobbledigook in the database....
# Posted on March 19th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Learning By Ear To Transcribing
If you really want to see what live playing really looks like when transcribed with 100% accuracy as dots on the page you need go no further than feeding the live music (or a recording thereof) into an application such as Intelliscore Polyphonic, which will do the job for you. I'll guarantee that the dots will look like something from a modern avant garde composer, and will be equally unplayable.
To be fair to Intelliscore and its like, though, it needs very careful control and the right sort of input to produce acceptable results.
Trevor
# Posted on March 19th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Learning By Ear To Transcribing
I'd forgotten about these -- Peter Laban and some others have done some great note for note transcriptions at http://www.rogermillington.com/tunetoc/index.html -- take a look, it's pretty interesting!
# Posted on March 19th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Learning By Ear To Transcribing
If you have a midi piano, you might look into Music write plus which is software by voyetra. I have the same concern(wanting to share great tunes with musician friends who may not all have the same cd collection as myself) , and experimented with this for awhile til my computer crashed. not related of course. If everything is set up correctly and you play in time, it comes out about 95 % right. only trouble is that it's not compatable with windows xp (my new computer), and the newer software is too expensive and more complicated.
# Posted on March 20th 2004 by crazy