I was able to join in my first session last night with a wonderful crowd, including a pro box player who I would have been happy to just sit back and listen to any other time. I was able to join in a fair few of the tunes, without (I hope) offending anyone too much with my mistakes. What a thrill...
Anyway, I noticed something that is probably "old hat" to many of you. Often when familiar new tunes came up I couldn't put a name on them. Sometimes I could pick up the tune quite well without remembering what it was called, but more often I needed to have someone whisper the name to me before I could play it. Once I had the name, it all fell into place and I could play away with something approaching confidence. I'm guessing an experienced player wouldn't need the tune name as a "crutch."
The other thing I noticed was that for some tunes I would think "I know how to play that one", but being unsure I'd pass. After the set, when I asked one of the other players the tune name, it would turn out I knew it very well from some CD or other - I could probably hum it, but no way I could play it on my instrument and just as well I didn't try...
I've learned the name as I learn the tunes, and sometimes I learn the names before I learn the tunes. I think it's because I find some of the tune names to be amusing, but it also comes in handy for remembering the tune at all. The plus side is that I have a name for almost all of the tunes I play. The not so plus side is that I have the same problem you're talking about -- I can't play the tune full out until I remember the name I have for it. This was far worse in the beginning, but now I'll find myself playing along fine, but I can't remember the name I have for the tune unless I think about it for a spell.
Most other folks I know don't seem to be as interested in the names of the tunes, or they just don't want to bother. Other folks have learned most of their tunes in sessions and never even knew they had names at all. These people seem to have an easier time jumping right in on the tune. I think it might be on account of the tune is wired straight to their sub-conscious.
I have an analogy for this: Consider that your brain is a computer. If you don't know the names of the tunes, then the tunes have to be accessed directly from your hard drive. But if you have the name, it shows up as an icon on your desktop -- and you have to access it from there. Getting it directly from your hard drive requires fewer steps, but if you need the icon to get it, you have to locate the icon first.
Now all this is well and fine, but it's wise to remember that if the tune isn’t on your hard drive, even if you have an icon for it -- don't try to learn it on the spot -- you'll corrupt the file and make it difficult for others around you to run the program.
Now if I haven’t already nauseated you with my computer analogy, I want to ask if any of you have ever experienced the following: Almost every time I learn a new tune it seems to corrupt at least one other tune in my data base. I don’t usually notice it until I happen to play the tune that has a similar passage. As I’m learning a new tune I have a hint that this is happening when I find a line in the tune I’m learning to be really difficult even though it’s relatively simple. This seems to indicate that a file for a tune I already know is being written over. Has anyone else experienced this, or do I just need to get more ram installed in my brain.
hi jack,
i definitely have the "tune corruption" phenomenon! in fact, there are a small handful of tunes i simply don't try to play at all anymore unless i have the sheet music or an abc notation in front of me because i've gotten them so thoroughly croggled. it's also a matter of similar passages for me --- i've often been working on memorizing a tune only to have my husband stop me and tell me that i've merrily sailed into something else halfway through. then it's back to the sheet music for another try.
in fact, i generally seem to have a maximum capacity, in that i can only remember so many tunes and then they start dropping out as well as getting corrupted. i do have asperger's syndrome, though, so my neurology isn't normal, and i've never know what role that plays.
anyway, you're not alone. (and neither am i... phew!)
sara
[Sorry about carrying on with computer/maths analogies, but...]
The brain seems to be wonderful at association, not great at absolute recall. For me, tune memory is a bit like a Markov chain. A Markov chain is a mathematical concept: an association of a set of items with the probabilities of which items are likely to follow them. It's possible to write quite a simple computer program to munge some text and generate output that mimics the original (erm, kind of... here's an example of what happens when you feed it the Old Testament: http://www.chunder.com/text/thusspakemvs.html).
Anyway, when I'm playing a tune, I feel like I'm doing the same thing... The more unique a tune is, the less likely I am to muddle it up with another; but if I'm playing a passage that's similar to others, suddenly I can disappear into a completely different tune... oh dear! This is particularly true when trying to move into a new tune impromptu... I might *think* I've got the first few notes sussed in my head, but out comes the wrong tune (often, embarrassingly, a tune that's been played earlier in the evening).
"Croggle" and "munge" - sounds like breakfast at the Mangle Pit Cafe. Great words!
Free associating with tune names can get in the way of playing the tunes, eh? Several of us were playing a ceili last month, and the dancers were going on and on. We were coming around the fourth time on a reel so I leaned over to the fiddler next to me and said, "Morning Dew" to suggest the next tune. She nodded, and leapt into the Concertina Reel (heh, my *favorite*). I missed the first bar or two and then caught up. About the second time through Concertina, it dawned on me that she misheard "Morning Dew" as "Whaddy wanna do?" We had a good laugh after the set ended.
Jack, your notion of 'writing over' one tune with another is spot on. But I've found the solution lies in making sure you go over the similar but confounding bits until you're dead certain of the specific notes or phrases that are the same, and the specific ones that are different. In short, you have to know _precisely_ how Rakish Paddy is the same as and is different from Bank of Ireland, Jenny Picking Cockles, and Nine Points of Roguery if you ever hope to be able to play all four tunes at some point in an evening.
As a writer and editor, I often end up with four or five iterations of the same document on my hard drive. Say, three progressive drafts and a final. Each one may differ from the other only in a few word choices or minor formatting details. To keep each one distinct from the others you have to give them different file names, and be intimately aware of those minor differences. Same with tunes.
Yes. I remember the only way I could keep in my head the distinction between the first parts of Dowsy Maggie and Toss the Feathers was to play them back to back... and I kind of got into the habit, which ain't great as people never hear the change! I don't really like having too similar tunes played together, but it's an easy trap to fall into (and one to which I think I'm increasingly prone, I'm afraid).
I'm aware that there are tune families, but what I'm talking about isn't as obvious. I have made it a point to sort out the subtle differences within these family groups, and I've even tried stringing them together as an exercise. But the relationship is a bit fuzzy between the tunes that get over written. These are the ones that I don't discover until the next time I happen to play the corrupted tune. Then I look at the similarities and find out it has more to do with muscle memory than melodic similarity.
Speaking of tune families: I was asked by Tommy Peoples to start a tune when I was in Ennis, and I suggested Kit O'Conner's reel. He asked what I'd like to put with it and I shrugged. I was amazed when he suggested McFadden's Handsome Daughter... but I was glad it wasn't up to me to make the switch. I think Tommy probably had extra ram installed at birth.
The tune names used to help me a lot- still sometimes i'll remember a name ( and that I like the tune) but not be able to recall the actual tune. But more often I play it ( or some approximation), then say "What was that?" I think this is progress?
Lots of people say they are more likely to remember where they learned or heard it first - or what it goes before or after usually.
My kids are laughing at me again for using punctuation and capital letters. They just don't type as fast as I do.
Jennifer
Jack, that's a good distinction. And yep, the muscle memory thing trips me up too, even on otherwise dissimilar tunes. On fiddle, I remember going through a phase fairly early on where slight differences in bowing would make me stumble. Nowadays, the bow arm has a mind of its own (a stand-alone peripheral device , but I can still tangle up my left hand fingers. What's really funny is when you're anticipating a phrase and you land on the wrong string--playing the right fingering, but not at all in the right place--simply because the anticipated sound in your head resonates with some other phrase on that other string.
Sigh. Maybe some day I'll be able to look back and think of this too as an "early" stage, heh.
I think Mr. Peoples got the first MacIntosh G400 processor, a generation or two before they were even invented....
I think the muscle memory thing is what makes me need the name of the tune to get going. Tunes are compressed into finger-pattern format, and filed with tune names as access passwords.
I know this isn't supposed to be the best way to memorize tunes - far better to instantly translate the melody stored in your head into actions on the instrument but, oh well...
I remember a classical guitarist telling me once that you don't really know the tune unless you can sit down, without your instrument, close your eyes, and visualize how you play every note and chord. Maybe I took his advice too much to heart.
People here seem to regard the "one tune overwriting another tune" as a bad thing. Try to think of it more possitively.
Think about it as two good tunes getting amalgamated into one better tune. People seem to think that a down side of this theory is that you'll end up knowing fewer tunes, but how can this be a bad thing if the tunes you end up knowing are better. And besides. there are too many tunes anyway.
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view), there will always be people who are seeking for something else. They will seek out new tunes, write new ones even, and introduce them (or attempt to) to the different sessions. It's not necessarily a bad thing and they'll not catch on, hopefully, unless they're any good. However, I fear that there'll inevitably be even more tunes, in the future, not less. :>))
Don't get me wrong. I like it that there is a constant streem of new tunes. Just as long as they write over any inferior previous ones. Or that the superior previous ones write over them.
I never bother learning tunes from other people, but if I hear a tune I want, I do ask the name, then look it up myself and learn it.
I don't know how, but as well as cataloguing tune names, my brain also catalogues under time signature so I can think ahead to the next tune.
I can remember the order of sets (and can play sets in reverse order, so must only remember tune names), but often, I just put things together in a random order, often governed by - "have I played this tune to this lot before?" - will they know it or shall I teach it them?.
Michael... it's not "one tune overwriting another tune," but rather, lines or passages of tunes being written over by similar ones you’re learning. If you were to allow this it would remove anything distinct about a given tune, and before long you'd end up with all the tunes sounding the same. There's enough of a problem with that as it is.
It's true, to a certain degree, what Peter Horan once told me when I asked him if he played any of Paddy O’Brien’s tunes. He said, "The new tunes are just the old tunes being re-written." But it would be very sad if the new tunes weren't written because of a concept like that.
I suppose, at the end of the day, you just have to learn the tunes you have time and capacity for, and enjoy listening to the rest.
I like your last sentence Jack. But I have to agree with Peter Horan. I know a lot of musicians who are generally admired but have a habit of writing tunes that are neither distinctive nor have anything new to say. And then the up and coming musicians learn these tunes to ingraciate themselves with their heros and all you are left with is a wasted generation or two. This may well be traditional, but it's a shame
I constantly have to hear the 'reminders' before I can jump in. I must know at least 100 tune by now I'm sure, but the ones everyone at the local session plays on a regular basis are of course the ones I know the best, and even then, I can't come up with the names every single time on the spot... sometimes I can't even start the tune without a cue!!! Once I hear the first 2 or 3 notes I'm off and running though!
It just all depends on the person I think and how things get stored.
I think some of the major issues with new music is that a lot of up and comers get slammed with the new age label right out of the shoot - even when they're trying to write something more traditional sounding. I actually like *some* of the "new-age" mixes I've heard ... quite interesting... but back to the point, I think a lot of up and comers get frustrated and drop trying to get into the market because of market pressure, "peer" / public pressure, etc. at least I know more than one little group who did.
Knowing what you know...
Knowing what you know...
I was able to join in my first session last night with a wonderful crowd, including a pro box player who I would have been happy to just sit back and listen to any other time. I was able to join in a fair few of the tunes, without (I hope) offending anyone too much with my mistakes. What a thrill...
Anyway, I noticed something that is probably "old hat" to many of you. Often when familiar new tunes came up I couldn't put a name on them. Sometimes I could pick up the tune quite well without remembering what it was called, but more often I needed to have someone whisper the name to me before I could play it. Once I had the name, it all fell into place and I could play away with something approaching confidence. I'm guessing an experienced player wouldn't need the tune name as a "crutch."
The other thing I noticed was that for some tunes I would think "I know how to play that one", but being unsure I'd pass. After the set, when I asked one of the other players the tune name, it would turn out I knew it very well from some CD or other - I could probably hum it, but no way I could play it on my instrument and just as well I didn't try...
Greg
# Posted on March 15th 2004 by grego
Re: Knowing what you know...
I've learned the name as I learn the tunes, and sometimes I learn the names before I learn the tunes. I think it's because I find some of the tune names to be amusing, but it also comes in handy for remembering the tune at all. The plus side is that I have a name for almost all of the tunes I play. The not so plus side is that I have the same problem you're talking about -- I can't play the tune full out until I remember the name I have for it. This was far worse in the beginning, but now I'll find myself playing along fine, but I can't remember the name I have for the tune unless I think about it for a spell.
Most other folks I know don't seem to be as interested in the names of the tunes, or they just don't want to bother. Other folks have learned most of their tunes in sessions and never even knew they had names at all. These people seem to have an easier time jumping right in on the tune. I think it might be on account of the tune is wired straight to their sub-conscious.
I have an analogy for this: Consider that your brain is a computer. If you don't know the names of the tunes, then the tunes have to be accessed directly from your hard drive. But if you have the name, it shows up as an icon on your desktop -- and you have to access it from there. Getting it directly from your hard drive requires fewer steps, but if you need the icon to get it, you have to locate the icon first.
Now all this is well and fine, but it's wise to remember that if the tune isn’t on your hard drive, even if you have an icon for it -- don't try to learn it on the spot -- you'll corrupt the file and make it difficult for others around you to run the program.
Now if I haven’t already nauseated you with my computer analogy, I want to ask if any of you have ever experienced the following: Almost every time I learn a new tune it seems to corrupt at least one other tune in my data base. I don’t usually notice it until I happen to play the tune that has a similar passage. As I’m learning a new tune I have a hint that this is happening when I find a line in the tune I’m learning to be really difficult even though it’s relatively simple. This seems to indicate that a file for a tune I already know is being written over. Has anyone else experienced this, or do I just need to get more ram installed in my brain.
# Posted on March 15th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Knowing what you know...
hi jack,
i definitely have the "tune corruption" phenomenon! in fact, there are a small handful of tunes i simply don't try to play at all anymore unless i have the sheet music or an abc notation in front of me because i've gotten them so thoroughly croggled. it's also a matter of similar passages for me --- i've often been working on memorizing a tune only to have my husband stop me and tell me that i've merrily sailed into something else halfway through. then it's back to the sheet music for another try.
in fact, i generally seem to have a maximum capacity, in that i can only remember so many tunes and then they start dropping out as well as getting corrupted. i do have asperger's syndrome, though, so my neurology isn't normal, and i've never know what role that plays.
anyway, you're not alone. (and neither am i... phew!)
sara
# Posted on March 15th 2004 by sara g
Re: Knowing what you know...
[Sorry about carrying on with computer/maths analogies, but...]
The brain seems to be wonderful at association, not great at absolute recall. For me, tune memory is a bit like a Markov chain. A Markov chain is a mathematical concept: an association of a set of items with the probabilities of which items are likely to follow them. It's possible to write quite a simple computer program to munge some text and generate output that mimics the original (erm, kind of... here's an example of what happens when you feed it the Old Testament: http://www.chunder.com/text/thusspakemvs.html).
Anyway, when I'm playing a tune, I feel like I'm doing the same thing... The more unique a tune is, the less likely I am to muddle it up with another; but if I'm playing a passage that's similar to others, suddenly I can disappear into a completely different tune... oh dear! This is particularly true when trying to move into a new tune impromptu... I might *think* I've got the first few notes sussed in my head, but out comes the wrong tune (often, embarrassingly, a tune that's been played earlier in the evening).
# Posted on March 15th 2004 by rog
Re: Knowing what you know...
"Croggle" and "munge" - sounds like breakfast at the Mangle Pit Cafe. Great words!
Free associating with tune names can get in the way of playing the tunes, eh? Several of us were playing a ceili last month, and the dancers were going on and on. We were coming around the fourth time on a reel so I leaned over to the fiddler next to me and said, "Morning Dew" to suggest the next tune. She nodded, and leapt into the Concertina Reel (heh, my *favorite*). I missed the first bar or two and then caught up. About the second time through Concertina, it dawned on me that she misheard "Morning Dew" as "Whaddy wanna do?" We had a good laugh after the set ended.
Jack, your notion of 'writing over' one tune with another is spot on. But I've found the solution lies in making sure you go over the similar but confounding bits until you're dead certain of the specific notes or phrases that are the same, and the specific ones that are different. In short, you have to know _precisely_ how Rakish Paddy is the same as and is different from Bank of Ireland, Jenny Picking Cockles, and Nine Points of Roguery if you ever hope to be able to play all four tunes at some point in an evening.
As a writer and editor, I often end up with four or five iterations of the same document on my hard drive. Say, three progressive drafts and a final. Each one may differ from the other only in a few word choices or minor formatting details. To keep each one distinct from the others you have to give them different file names, and be intimately aware of those minor differences. Same with tunes.
# Posted on March 15th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Knowing what you know...
Yes. I remember the only way I could keep in my head the distinction between the first parts of Dowsy Maggie and Toss the Feathers was to play them back to back... and I kind of got into the habit, which ain't great as people never hear the change! I don't really like having too similar tunes played together, but it's an easy trap to fall into (and one to which I think I'm increasingly prone, I'm afraid).
# Posted on March 15th 2004 by rog
Re: Knowing what you know...
I'm aware that there are tune families, but what I'm talking about isn't as obvious. I have made it a point to sort out the subtle differences within these family groups, and I've even tried stringing them together as an exercise. But the relationship is a bit fuzzy between the tunes that get over written. These are the ones that I don't discover until the next time I happen to play the corrupted tune. Then I look at the similarities and find out it has more to do with muscle memory than melodic similarity.
Speaking of tune families: I was asked by Tommy Peoples to start a tune when I was in Ennis, and I suggested Kit O'Conner's reel. He asked what I'd like to put with it and I shrugged. I was amazed when he suggested McFadden's Handsome Daughter... but I was glad it wasn't up to me to make the switch. I think Tommy probably had extra ram installed at birth.
# Posted on March 15th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Knowing what you know...
The tune names used to help me a lot- still sometimes i'll remember a name ( and that I like the tune) but not be able to recall the actual tune. But more often I play it ( or some approximation), then say "What was that?" I think this is progress?
Lots of people say they are more likely to remember where they learned or heard it first - or what it goes before or after usually.
My kids are laughing at me again for using punctuation and capital letters. They just don't type as fast as I do.
Jennifer
# Posted on March 15th 2004 by Jenthur
Re: Knowing what you know...
Jack, that's a good distinction. And yep, the muscle memory thing trips me up too, even on otherwise dissimilar tunes. On fiddle, I remember going through a phase fairly early on where slight differences in bowing would make me stumble. Nowadays, the bow arm has a mind of its own (a stand-alone peripheral device
, but I can still tangle up my left hand fingers. What's really funny is when you're anticipating a phrase and you land on the wrong string--playing the right fingering, but not at all in the right place--simply because the anticipated sound in your head resonates with some other phrase on that other string.
Sigh. Maybe some day I'll be able to look back and think of this too as an "early" stage, heh.
I think Mr. Peoples got the first MacIntosh G400 processor, a generation or two before they were even invented....
# Posted on March 15th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Knowing what you know...
I think the muscle memory thing is what makes me need the name of the tune to get going. Tunes are compressed into finger-pattern format, and filed with tune names as access passwords.
I know this isn't supposed to be the best way to memorize tunes - far better to instantly translate the melody stored in your head into actions on the instrument but, oh well...
I remember a classical guitarist telling me once that you don't really know the tune unless you can sit down, without your instrument, close your eyes, and visualize how you play every note and chord. Maybe I took his advice too much to heart.
# Posted on March 15th 2004 by grego
Re: Knowing what you know...
I dread the day when I get old and start forgeting things too.
-Max
# Posted on March 15th 2004 by Max Becher
Re: Knowing what you know...
I heard that if you play the whistle before your 20 it causes brain damage.
# Posted on March 15th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Knowing what you know...
Jennifer, your kids won't get (largely) taken seriously by most here for NOT using punctuation and caps. So there. What do they know? Heh. ;)
# Posted on March 15th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Knowing what you know...
People here seem to regard the "one tune overwriting another tune" as a bad thing. Try to think of it more possitively.
Think about it as two good tunes getting amalgamated into one better tune. People seem to think that a down side of this theory is that you'll end up knowing fewer tunes, but how can this be a bad thing if the tunes you end up knowing are better. And besides. there are too many tunes anyway.
# Posted on March 15th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Knowing what you know...
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view), there will always be people who are seeking for something else. They will seek out new tunes, write new ones even, and introduce them (or attempt to) to the different sessions. It's not necessarily a bad thing and they'll not catch on, hopefully, unless they're any good. However, I fear that there'll inevitably be even more tunes, in the future, not less. :>))
# Posted on March 15th 2004 by John J.
Re: Knowing what you know...
Don't get me wrong. I like it that there is a constant streem of new tunes. Just as long as they write over any inferior previous ones. Or that the superior previous ones write over them.
# Posted on March 15th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Knowing what you know...
I never bother learning tunes from other people, but if I hear a tune I want, I do ask the name, then look it up myself and learn it.
I don't know how, but as well as cataloguing tune names, my brain also catalogues under time signature so I can think ahead to the next tune.
I can remember the order of sets (and can play sets in reverse order, so must only remember tune names), but often, I just put things together in a random order, often governed by - "have I played this tune to this lot before?" - will they know it or shall I teach it them?.
# Posted on March 15th 2004 by geoffwright
Re: Knowing what you know...
Michael... it's not "one tune overwriting another tune," but rather, lines or passages of tunes being written over by similar ones you’re learning. If you were to allow this it would remove anything distinct about a given tune, and before long you'd end up with all the tunes sounding the same. There's enough of a problem with that as it is.
It's true, to a certain degree, what Peter Horan once told me when I asked him if he played any of Paddy O’Brien’s tunes. He said, "The new tunes are just the old tunes being re-written." But it would be very sad if the new tunes weren't written because of a concept like that.
I suppose, at the end of the day, you just have to learn the tunes you have time and capacity for, and enjoy listening to the rest.
# Posted on March 16th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: Knowing what you know...
I like your last sentence Jack. But I have to agree with Peter Horan. I know a lot of musicians who are generally admired but have a habit of writing tunes that are neither distinctive nor have anything new to say. And then the up and coming musicians learn these tunes to ingraciate themselves with their heros and all you are left with is a wasted generation or two. This may well be traditional, but it's a shame
# Posted on March 16th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Knowing what you know...
I constantly have to hear the 'reminders' before I can jump in. I must know at least 100 tune by now I'm sure, but the ones everyone at the local session plays on a regular basis are of course the ones I know the best, and even then, I can't come up with the names every single time on the spot... sometimes I can't even start the tune without a cue!!! Once I hear the first 2 or 3 notes I'm off and running though!
It just all depends on the person I think and how things get stored.
I think some of the major issues with new music is that a lot of up and comers get slammed with the new age label right out of the shoot - even when they're trying to write something more traditional sounding. I actually like *some* of the "new-age" mixes I've heard ... quite interesting... but back to the point, I think a lot of up and comers get frustrated and drop trying to get into the market because of market pressure, "peer" / public pressure, etc. at least I know more than one little group who did.
Take care,
John
# Posted on March 17th 2004 by McHaffie