Weird incidents happen when ITM's get together. Here is one that happened to me ...
As a flute player, I think that the instrument sounds much better as a solo voice in a session rather than as a gaggle playing together (unlike fiddles, which sound great either solo or in ensemble). So, if there are several of my ilk at a session I will often sit out a set to let the other flute players be heard. I don't expect (or care) if they do the same when I play, but I enjoy hearing them and enjoy the music better when only one flute plays.
So, I was at this great session, sitting out a set, and a friend leans over to me and says "play, don't ask me why, just play!". I didn't know that tune, but I knew the next, and I finished out the set.
A month later I asked my friend what that was all about. He said that one of the other flute players thought I didn't like his playing and was refusing to play with him. He said my behavior was insulting to the other player. I was livid, explaining first my position about many flutes, next my resentment at being manipulated to produce a result I was unaware of, and finally livid because the actual person who was complaining about me didn't speak directly to me.
Now, I have insulted others in sessions, but it is always very direct. I am still fond of the line I recently lavished on a guitar player: "either play in the right key, or play the right tempo, but you've got to get at least one of them right to play with us." So, if I'm going to insult someone, I'll do it right to their face, not by some weird innuendo that's neither intentional nor correct.
This feeling that I have to tread lightly and somehow understand exactly what can offend others for the greater good of the group is a weird feeling of mutual codependence that I am very uncomfortable with. It seems to come up a lot in the west coast USA ITM community. It's definitely not fun.
Diplomacy, guys, diplomacy. You can still tell someone that they're off base without making it offensive. A smile and a gentle pointer can go a long way. After all it's not a fight, we're supposed to be playing and assisting and enjoying TOGETHER
Don't lump the entire West Coast into your assessment Eliot. There are many times that myself and others sit out a tune that we know for the pleasure of hearing a solo, or one of an instrument we ourself play in the mix -- and no one gets upset. Just the other night a brilliant flute player from Sligo, Desmond I think his name was, came through. I sat out tunes I knew myself more than once to listen to a solo from him, or hear his flute in the mix sans my own, and he didn't take it wrong. He knew far more tunes than I but I noticed he would do the same, but probably for different reasons I imagine. (He was probably dumbfounded by my courage to actually play so poorly in public) I've noticed others doing this same sort of thing when duplicates of the instrument they play show up... it's no big deal, and no one's offended. Sorry to hear that things are so neurotic down your way... give em all a chill pill I guess.
Sorry for the generalization . Not the whole west coast -- just the people I play with on any given night Haven't been up your way yet.
I think it has something to do with how touchy-feely-sensitive-ya-ya-ya we are out on this coast, which is quite unlike your understated and much appreciated self-deprecation.
That is so strange Eliot. It seems the person feeling insulted is unsure of their own playing and/or has low self esteem. I mean why go and assume an insult when the complete opposite could also be the case, as in your were choosing to listen and not play, because you *did* like their playing.
Anyway, don't worry about it. If you see this person again, and want to clear the air, just tell them that you heard that they were insulted and that you often sit out tunes for various reasons and that it has nothing to do with his playing ability.
Keep on being direct. Don't let their passive agressive games get to you. You don't have the time for such childishness, right?
I like the self-deprecation thing - I've heard some great remarks on stage which really make me warm to people; I'm sure these are not original but they tickled me at the time:
(introducing a pibcorn to an audience): "It's like a musical instrument, only smaller"
(talking to an audience at the start of a gig): "Thanks for coming along. It's
I didn't exactly get all the responses I expected but you never do. :>)) There were protests, in fact, from quiet natured accordian players. :>))
As for the original post, I think it's quite polite for certain instruments to have a break and allow others to come to the fore now and again. If another mandolin player, especially, plays a tune, it's good to listen for a change or I might play the fiddle or something else with him/her instead so as not to detract from his/her playing. Other times, of course, there's no harm and it can be quite nice to have two or more mandolins (or whatever).
Also, as discussed elsewhere, many of us like a drink or two at a session and we have to allow breaks for this. I'd suggest that, in the majority of cases, musicians have quite acceptable reasons for "sitting out a tune" but I can understand how some less confident players can get a bit sensitive, especially in a strange situation. Having said that, there are some musicians that I can't always play with--either because they're so much better than me or, on the other hand, really bad !! -- then, I'll maybe sit out a particular set. However, that's not meant as a "snub" and I'll obviously still play with them the rest of the time, if I can.
Why bother being livid, Eliot? Not worth the energy. If you know you have good reasons to be sitting out a tune or a few and they don't want to have their little balloon all punctured by bothering to talk to you about it, it's not worth getting exercised about. Think Zen thoughts. ;)
I like that, Zina, Zen thoughts .... what exactly is a Zen thought though? An example would be helpful. Something about fish, maybe? Or bowling?
In a session, it's those "Zen moments" that keep drawing us back. Moments when we're totally in the music, and the world just stops, and nothing else matters for that moment but the music.
By the way, Jack. There was a guy at our session here last night (Dave Lewicki) that was at your session when the Sligo flute player showed up, and he was telling the story about the flute player. It was tremendously funny, because I finished the story for him, and he looked at me like how could I possibly know.
Gee Eliot,
A couple of weeks ago you were begging us to move back to Ca. Now you're telling me that if you and I are at a session together you will set your flute down when I pick mine up. Hrrrrummmfff. Personally, I'd rather play music with you than at you. Oh well, I guess I'll stay out here in the wild west. Besides, if I moved I'd miss my bowling buddies. We do only have one bowler on the lane at a time.
Eliot - your story reminds me of a similar thing that happened at our sesh a few years ago, where we were informed by a third party that X the Fiddler was really mad at us and we were lucky he hadn't thumped us. But there was no information forthcoming as to what we had done, and he didn't speak to us directly.
I went to see him "out of hours" to make some peace, and we all ended up best of friends. With long hindsight it turns out that he had personal and business problems at the time, and it was probably nothing to do with us at all.
As for Zen thoughts - What is the sound of one bone playing?
I am loud with a split personality which is probably why I play anglo (Jeffries) and english concertina (loud Lachenal), majoring on piano accordion.
If I miss out on a tune, it means either, I can't follow this but you are playing it well, or I can't follow this because you are playing it so badly. It can also mean I find this tune boring and am asleep. zzzzzzzzzzz
I have found some sessions outside Scotland and Ireland (and lewisham ) sometimes to be over earnest. The standard of playing is overall higher, but the crack is barely there. It's like a practice session for the local "classical musicians who want to play Irish" crowd.
Whereas in above-mentioned countries, you'll get a few fantastic players and a lot of ordinary ones but the spirit of the music, though inconsistent, is way better. And the atmosphere is friendly and welcoming. This is also true in other countries, just harder to find among the "serious" pub sessions.
How many sessions OUTSIDE of Ireland or Scotland (and Lewisham) have you been to? While I myself am not a big fan of being insulting to anyone on purpose (I've been known to often insult inadvertently and completely not on purpose, though), sometime around the millionth w*nker, you're a little more willing to let fly. This frankly seems to happen more often outside of Scotland and Ireland (in my limited experience, anyway) because there are fewer people who know what a session is about.
But let's not go bouncing from pole to opposite pole here, yeah? For the most part, most people at a session are quite nice, want to get along with everyone else, and like the crack as much as anyone else. If you work from that assumption, you can save the insults for when it's clear that someone doesn't want to work with what the overall session group wants to see happen of an evening.
The sessions in Scotland vary from the over earnest to the completely loose, falling apart, anything goes type with lots of different possibilities (and varieties of w*nker) in between. In some ways, we're very lucky and can make our own choice. I have to admit that many of the sessions in Ireland can be even more welcoming as long as you treat the regular musicians with respect.
However, in general, I find that the level of tolerance varies with the type of session and your own attitude.
I was exposed to the craic word first in about 1971. Us Dublin lads hooked up with some Sligo folks when we were all in the Connemara Gaeltacht, and they constantly talked about having "great craic" and we had to get a translation. Nobody bothered to spell it, though.
Anyway, I alsways considered it to be a Sligo expression that eventually infected the rest of the land. The other Sligo expression we learned was "cat", as in "that's cat!", meaning "that's awful!" That one doesn't seem to have taken hold, though there's still time...
Well, having played all around North America as well as across Europe, I've found friendly sessions everywhere. About the only place I've ever run into a disagreeable session is here at home, in Los Angeles. I think there's a lot to be said for the warm welcome of a real session in Ireland, but the same is true for the sessions I've found in Boston, Chicago, St. Louis, Toronto, Mexico City, etc. etc. etc...
If you're visiting LA and are greeted with a less than warm welcome, don't say I didn't warn you. If you're here on a Monday night, we'll certainly be happy to have you at the Celtic Arts Center seisiun, and if anyone's offended by your presence I will personally insult you for them, just so we're all very clear.
A story about insulting others ...
A story about insulting others ...
Weird incidents happen when ITM's get together. Here is one that happened to me ...
As a flute player, I think that the instrument sounds much better as a solo voice in a session rather than as a gaggle playing together (unlike fiddles, which sound great either solo or in ensemble). So, if there are several of my ilk at a session I will often sit out a set to let the other flute players be heard. I don't expect (or care) if they do the same when I play, but I enjoy hearing them and enjoy the music better when only one flute plays.
So, I was at this great session, sitting out a set, and a friend leans over to me and says "play, don't ask me why, just play!". I didn't know that tune, but I knew the next, and I finished out the set.
A month later I asked my friend what that was all about. He said that one of the other flute players thought I didn't like his playing and was refusing to play with him. He said my behavior was insulting to the other player. I was livid, explaining first my position about many flutes, next my resentment at being manipulated to produce a result I was unaware of, and finally livid because the actual person who was complaining about me didn't speak directly to me.
Now, I have insulted others in sessions, but it is always very direct. I am still fond of the line I recently lavished on a guitar player: "either play in the right key, or play the right tempo, but you've got to get at least one of them right to play with us." So, if I'm going to insult someone, I'll do it right to their face, not by some weird innuendo that's neither intentional nor correct.
This feeling that I have to tread lightly and somehow understand exactly what can offend others for the greater good of the group is a weird feeling of mutual codependence that I am very uncomfortable with. It seems to come up a lot in the west coast USA ITM community. It's definitely not fun.
If only I was a nicer person.
2 cents.
--Eliot
# Posted on March 13th 2004 by Eliot
Re: A story about insulting others ...
Many times in a session I "just don't play". Reasons include:
1. Don't know the tune that well.
2. Fingers are tired.
3. Don't like the tune.
4. Talking to a friend.
5. Just don't feel like playing at the time.
I feel all these reasons are perfectly legitimate, especially #5. If some takes umbrage to my action, it is their problem, not mine.
# Posted on March 13th 2004 by tocotodo
Re: A story about insulting others ...
Diplomacy, guys, diplomacy. You can still tell someone that they're off base without making it offensive. A smile and a gentle pointer can go a long way. After all it's not a fight, we're supposed to be playing and assisting and enjoying TOGETHER
# Posted on March 13th 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: A story about insulting others ...
Don't lump the entire West Coast into your assessment Eliot. There are many times that myself and others sit out a tune that we know for the pleasure of hearing a solo, or one of an instrument we ourself play in the mix -- and no one gets upset. Just the other night a brilliant flute player from Sligo, Desmond I think his name was, came through. I sat out tunes I knew myself more than once to listen to a solo from him, or hear his flute in the mix sans my own, and he didn't take it wrong. He knew far more tunes than I but I noticed he would do the same, but probably for different reasons I imagine. (He was probably dumbfounded by my courage to actually play so poorly in public) I've noticed others doing this same sort of thing when duplicates of the instrument they play show up... it's no big deal, and no one's offended. Sorry to hear that things are so neurotic down your way... give em all a chill pill I guess.
# Posted on March 13th 2004 by Phantom Button
Re: A story about insulting others ...
Jack,
Haven't been up your way yet.
Sorry for the generalization . Not the whole west coast -- just the people I play with on any given night
I think it has something to do with how touchy-feely-sensitive-ya-ya-ya we are out on this coast, which is quite unlike your understated and much appreciated self-deprecation.
With fondness,
---Eliot
# Posted on March 13th 2004 by Eliot
Re: A story about insulting others ...
That is so strange Eliot. It seems the person feeling insulted is unsure of their own playing and/or has low self esteem. I mean why go and assume an insult when the complete opposite could also be the case, as in your were choosing to listen and not play, because you *did* like their playing.
Anyway, don't worry about it. If you see this person again, and want to clear the air, just tell them that you heard that they were insulted and that you often sit out tunes for various reasons and that it has nothing to do with his playing ability.
Keep on being direct. Don't let their passive agressive games get to you. You don't have the time for such childishness, right?
# Posted on March 13th 2004 by Andee
Re: A story about insulting others ...
I like the self-deprecation thing - I've heard some great remarks on stage which really make me warm to people; I'm sure these are not original but they tickled me at the time:
(introducing a pibcorn to an audience): "It's like a musical instrument, only smaller"
(talking to an audience at the start of a gig): "Thanks for coming along. It's
# Posted on March 13th 2004 by Mark Harmer
Re: A story about insulting others ...PS
Of course, the other guy could have been jealous of the length of your flute??!
Mark
# Posted on March 13th 2004 by Mark Harmer
Re: A story about insulting others ...
Mark, I started a discussion along these lines a few weeks ago.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/2919
I didn't exactly get all the responses I expected but you never do. :>)) There were protests, in fact, from quiet natured accordian players. :>))
As for the original post, I think it's quite polite for certain instruments to have a break and allow others to come to the fore now and again. If another mandolin player, especially, plays a tune, it's good to listen for a change or I might play the fiddle or something else with him/her instead so as not to detract from his/her playing. Other times, of course, there's no harm and it can be quite nice to have two or more mandolins (or whatever).
Also, as discussed elsewhere, many of us like a drink or two at a session and we have to allow breaks for this. I'd suggest that, in the majority of cases, musicians have quite acceptable reasons for "sitting out a tune" but I can understand how some less confident players can get a bit sensitive, especially in a strange situation. Having said that, there are some musicians that I can't always play with--either because they're so much better than me or, on the other hand, really bad !! -- then, I'll maybe sit out a particular set. However, that's not meant as a "snub" and I'll obviously still play with them the rest of the time, if I can.
John
# Posted on March 13th 2004 by John J.
Re: A story about insulting others ...
Why bother being livid, Eliot? Not worth the energy. If you know you have good reasons to be sitting out a tune or a few and they don't want to have their little balloon all punctured by bothering to talk to you about it, it's not worth getting exercised about. Think Zen thoughts. ;)
# Posted on March 14th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: A story about insulting others ...
I like that, Zina, Zen thoughts .... what exactly is a Zen thought though? An example would be helpful. Something about fish, maybe? Or bowling?
In a session, it's those "Zen moments" that keep drawing us back. Moments when we're totally in the music, and the world just stops, and nothing else matters for that moment but the music.
By the way, Jack. There was a guy at our session here last night (Dave Lewicki) that was at your session when the Sligo flute player showed up, and he was telling the story about the flute player. It was tremendously funny, because I finished the story for him, and he looked at me like how could I possibly know.
--Eliot
# Posted on March 14th 2004 by Eliot
Re: A story about insulting others ...
Gee Eliot,
A couple of weeks ago you were begging us to move back to Ca. Now you're telling me that if you and I are at a session together you will set your flute down when I pick mine up. Hrrrrummmfff. Personally, I'd rather play music with you than at you. Oh well, I guess I'll stay out here in the wild west. Besides, if I moved I'd miss my bowling buddies. We do only have one bowler on the lane at a time.
Say hi to the gang.
Cheers
Richard
# Posted on March 14th 2004 by print o' the wave
Re: A story about insulting others ...
You know, Zen thoughts -- like, is this set really all that important? Is this flute player already broken? I wonder what's for dinner? ;)
# Posted on March 14th 2004 by Zina Lee
P.S. Richard
Richard, should I bring up my bowling ball in April? I'll warn you, it's been over a year since I played, and I'll be lucky to break 100!
# Posted on March 14th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: A story about insulting others ...
I think you should try playing in Scotland. People are not shy to say "for f&*ks sake will you give that f
# Posted on March 14th 2004 by Bren
Re: A story about insulting others ...
Eliot - your story reminds me of a similar thing that happened at our sesh a few years ago, where we were informed by a third party that X the Fiddler was really mad at us and we were lucky he hadn't thumped us. But there was no information forthcoming as to what we had done, and he didn't speak to us directly.
I went to see him "out of hours" to make some peace, and we all ended up best of friends. With long hindsight it turns out that he had personal and business problems at the time, and it was probably nothing to do with us at all.
As for Zen thoughts - What is the sound of one bone playing?
Dave
# Posted on March 14th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: A story about insulting others ...
The sound of one bone playing must be that transition scene in "2001" where the action goes from deep prehistory to the space station.
Trevor
# Posted on March 14th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: A story about insulting others ...
I am loud with a split personality which is probably why I play anglo (Jeffries) and english concertina (loud Lachenal), majoring on piano accordion.
If I miss out on a tune, it means either, I can't follow this but you are playing it well, or I can't follow this because you are playing it so badly. It can also mean I find this tune boring and am asleep. zzzzzzzzzzz
# Posted on March 14th 2004 by geoffwright
Re: A story about insulting others ...
well said steve.
I have found some sessions outside Scotland and Ireland (and lewisham ) sometimes to be over earnest. The standard of playing is overall higher, but the crack is barely there. It's like a practice session for the local "classical musicians who want to play Irish" crowd.
Whereas in above-mentioned countries, you'll get a few fantastic players and a lot of ordinary ones but the spirit of the music, though inconsistent, is way better. And the atmosphere is friendly and welcoming. This is also true in other countries, just harder to find among the "serious" pub sessions.
# Posted on March 15th 2004 by Bren
Re: A story about insulting others ...
How many sessions OUTSIDE of Ireland or Scotland (and Lewisham) have you been to? While I myself am not a big fan of being insulting to anyone on purpose (I've been known to often insult inadvertently and completely not on purpose, though), sometime around the millionth w*nker, you're a little more willing to let fly. This frankly seems to happen more often outside of Scotland and Ireland (in my limited experience, anyway) because there are fewer people who know what a session is about.
But let's not go bouncing from pole to opposite pole here, yeah? For the most part, most people at a session are quite nice, want to get along with everyone else, and like the crack as much as anyone else. If you work from that assumption, you can save the insults for when it's clear that someone doesn't want to work with what the overall session group wants to see happen of an evening.
# Posted on March 16th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: A story about insulting others ...
The sessions in Scotland vary from the over earnest to the completely loose, falling apart, anything goes type with lots of different possibilities (and varieties of w*nker) in between. In some ways, we're very lucky and can make our own choice. I have to admit that many of the sessions in Ireland can be even more welcoming as long as you treat the regular musicians with respect.
However, in general, I find that the level of tolerance varies with the type of session and your own attitude.
John
# Posted on March 16th 2004 by John J.
Craic/Crack
I was exposed to the craic word first in about 1971. Us Dublin lads hooked up with some Sligo folks when we were all in the Connemara Gaeltacht, and they constantly talked about having "great craic" and we had to get a translation. Nobody bothered to spell it, though.
Anyway, I alsways considered it to be a Sligo expression that eventually infected the rest of the land. The other Sligo expression we learned was "cat", as in "that's cat!", meaning "that's awful!" That one doesn't seem to have taken hold, though there's still time...
Greg
# Posted on March 17th 2004 by grego
Re: A story about insulting others ...
Well, having played all around North America as well as across Europe, I've found friendly sessions everywhere. About the only place I've ever run into a disagreeable session is here at home, in Los Angeles. I think there's a lot to be said for the warm welcome of a real session in Ireland, but the same is true for the sessions I've found in Boston, Chicago, St. Louis, Toronto, Mexico City, etc. etc. etc...
If you're visiting LA and are greeted with a less than warm welcome, don't say I didn't warn you. If you're here on a Monday night, we'll certainly be happy to have you at the Celtic Arts Center seisiun, and if anyone's offended by your presence I will personally insult you for them, just so we're all very clear.
# Posted on March 20th 2004 by HighlandSun