Listening to Trip-'s whistle recording brings up a question I have about a lot of tunes that, like the B part of his tune, have a couple of phrases that have a low-high-low pattern.
For example: Fred Finn's (a reel I'm currently learning) the first measure of the B-part goes |: fdad bdaf | -- it's the a - b - a that stands out in recordings (like the Chieftain's: Water From The Well, Live From Matt Malloy's Pub) -- it almost sounds like no one is really playing the d's.
When *I* play it, of course, the d's stand out just as much as the a - b - a and it doesn't sound the same (or "right"?). Should I be playing those d's very lightly? Not at all?
It's common phemonenon with a lot of tunes. The A-part is often in the lower register, followed by a contrasting B-part mostly in the higher register. A useful pointer to anyone who wants to compose a new tune.
Trevor
Len, that's a stock in many a tune, and you're right, the "drone" note (in this case, the d's) tends to be de-emphasized. Your mind's ear will fill in those notes anyway, even if you barely voice them on your instrument. (I call the repeated note a 'drone' only because on some instruments, notably fiddle, it tends to sustain through the whole phrase, providing a drone behind the rising and falling higher notes.)
Looking at it from a slightly different angle, the f - a - b - af bits of the phrase will stand out *even if you don't accent them* because they're higher pitched and *moving.* In other words, any listener will pick up on the f - a - b -af "phrase" without any extra help from the player.
So...my own take on this is to play the 'drone' notes clearly but without much attack or articulation, and to find the minimum amount of attack that will bring out the moving notes. In many cases, I find that these phrases come out slightly quieter than the phrases right before and after--sort of a brief whisper amidst talking at normal voice. Otherwise those moving high notes tend to sound hammered out - shouting, when there's no need to.
I understand what your saying, its a nice way to add a beat for the listener in a stream of notes by accenting certain notes... sometimes i do it sometimes I don't... play it the way you want to play it...
I wonder if *actually* playing the lower notes as a drone (keep playing them on the lower string when playing the higher notes on the higher string -- just playing double-stops) would sound good or would it sound muddied?
Len, if you listen closely you'll hear it played both ways, sometimes by the same fiddler in the same tune. Whether you ring those 'drone' notes throughout the phrase or play them more as distinct notes against the moving notes depends a lot on how you bow the phrase. To get them distinct, it's easiest if you just single bow every note--typically up-bowing the d's in this case, and down-bowing the moving notes. For a more droney sound, you'll want a shuffle pattern where you slur across the strings:
up-bow on "fd"
down-bow "a"
up-bow "dbd"
down-bow "a
up-bow "f"
Of course, that's just one way of doing it, and taken out of context from the phrases before and after.
Pádraig, there are any number of bowing "patterns" you could use, and eventually you'll want to bow it every which way, inside and out, to find what works best for you and the particular sound you're trying to get.
For the phrase you've highlighted in Mountain Road, I'd suggest getting comfortable bowing it three specific ways before moving on to other approaches.
First, use single bows. Start with an up bow on the F, and then alternate bow strokes for every note: down on A, up on F, down on B, up on F, down on A, up on F. In short, up bow all the F's and down bow all the notes on the second string.
Now do it with a scratch or bowed triplet on that first F2.
I would do the triplet down-up-down, followed by:
up on AF
down on B
up on F
down on A
up on F
Finally, try this shuffle pattern, very common in the Sligo style, and well used throughout Irish fiddling.
up on F (typically slurred into on an up bow from the previous note or two)
down on A
up on FBF
down on A
up on F (and typcially continued slurring up onto the next note or two)
To get this shuffle to work as intended, you'll want to:
(1) swing it a fair amount.
(2) let the down bows naturally accent the two A's. Make those down bows quick and short, but light and controlled. No need to hammer on them, just a bit of pop.
(3) keep your wrist super loose so that the slurred string crossing (the FBF part) is smooth and light, just a near invisible dip of your wrist to catch that B.
(4) Almost let the B disappear into the 'drone' of the slurred F's.
Once you get these three approaches down, you can vary them however you like, but you'll have a solid rhythm base to work from.
Incidentally, the A part to In the Taproom is a great little exercise for the shuffle pattern. Play along with Burke and Hayes on the "In Concert" cd if you really want to lock in the feel.
In lesson I had with Tony DeMarco, he called it "figure 8 bowing". Assuming the first measure is F2 AFBFAF.
He said it was:
down F2 A
up FBF
down AF
But after practicing a few weeks I found that the real lesson was to practice slowly, whatever pattern it is, and forget about getting good at this in just a few weeks (well maybe some lucky people other than myself).
Once I got a shaky basic ability with this pattern, other little variations seemed to come out easier according to tune, context, etc. I'm sure all the above patterns sound pretty good if you can really play them.
This is one of those things that I think takes a while to really master. I briefly took classical guitar lessons years ago and the teacher said that the "tremolo" technique of a bass note and 3 repeated notes (famous in the piece "Recuerdos Del Alhambra") takes a minimum of 2 years to achieve basic competency, assuming diligent regular practice.
Hmmm...that "figure eight" pattern strikes me as odd because you start and end on a down bow. Usually, a shuffle pattern leads back into itself so you can repeat it ad nauseum (which I adivse against doing, unless you actually _want_ to sound like Charlie Daniels .
Bowing patterns are funny things. Like Wduty says, they take some concentrated practice to do well, and yet every fiddler worth his/her salt will tell you not to use patterns, at least not for more than a bar or two. So you play shuffles over and over until you can do them in your sleep, and then you use them sparingly, well mixed with 'random' slurs and single bows.
Yeah, I noticed that right away in tunes like Bunch of Green Rushes or Heathery Breeze where there's repeated instances of the figure. So I took that as an opportunity to practice the pattern reversed, which turns out not that difficult once you get a hang for the forward way. But I'll try out the above patterns - this is a pretty important thing to develop.
He did mention situations where he wants to end on the up bow in which case he changes the bow direction on either the first note or the last, I can't remember. (And that would resolve to a symmetrical pattern).
Yep...play this music long enough, and the most important skills you'll develop are (1) the ability to anticipate with your bow to set up and follow up certain ornaments (especially scratch triplets) and phrases, and (2) the ability to bow your way into a corner and then back out again (Sean Smyth's words) without crashing. Most times, that means being able to sneak a single bow or slur--up or down--into things with just a nanosecond of premonition that you'll get yourself into trouble otherwise.
And of course, the more you play, the easier it gets to just play, as if the bow were taking care of itself. Part of that, though, is hours of woodshedding very consciously on all the options for bowing things like these phrases we're nit picking on here.
Tony D taught me the same pattern, starting downward. All the other Sligo players I've seen start it downward as well. In fact I've never seen it started on the up bow, sounds like a good workout I'll give it a shot.
Whether you start on a down or up bow depends on your own preferences, what direction you were going beforehand, and luck of the draw. Kevin Burke, among others, likes to swing into things on an up bow, and tends to accent down beats on up bows as well. As he says, the bow only goes in two directions, and always one at a time....
I imagine most of my prosody sounding like farty noise, no consonant strings needed....
Well, how's this for semi-certainty? The down bows take care of themselves. And one of the differences between a predictable fiddler and an interesting one is where s/he puts the accents. If they're all done with down bows, it sounds pretty stodgy. So the magic tends to happen by leaning into the hair on up bows. (Btw, now that I've earned a chunk of that kingdom, does it happen to include a certain little stone cottage in Wales?
That "low-high-low" phrase in reels
That "low-high-low" phrase in reels
Listening to Trip-'s whistle recording brings up a question I have about a lot of tunes that, like the B part of his tune, have a couple of phrases that have a low-high-low pattern.
For example: Fred Finn's (a reel I'm currently learning) the first measure of the B-part goes |: fdad bdaf | -- it's the a - b - a that stands out in recordings (like the Chieftain's: Water From The Well, Live From Matt Malloy's Pub) -- it almost sounds like no one is really playing the d's.
When *I* play it, of course, the d's stand out just as much as the a - b - a and it doesn't sound the same (or "right"?). Should I be playing those d's very lightly? Not at all?
Len
# Posted on March 8th 2004 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: That "low-high-low" phrase in reels
It's common phemonenon with a lot of tunes. The A-part is often in the lower register, followed by a contrasting B-part mostly in the higher register. A useful pointer to anyone who wants to compose a new tune.
Trevor
# Posted on March 9th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: That "low-high-low" phrase in reels
Len, that's a stock in many a tune, and you're right, the "drone" note (in this case, the d's) tends to be de-emphasized. Your mind's ear will fill in those notes anyway, even if you barely voice them on your instrument. (I call the repeated note a 'drone' only because on some instruments, notably fiddle, it tends to sustain through the whole phrase, providing a drone behind the rising and falling higher notes.)
Looking at it from a slightly different angle, the f - a - b - af bits of the phrase will stand out *even if you don't accent them* because they're higher pitched and *moving.* In other words, any listener will pick up on the f - a - b -af "phrase" without any extra help from the player.
So...my own take on this is to play the 'drone' notes clearly but without much attack or articulation, and to find the minimum amount of attack that will bring out the moving notes. In many cases, I find that these phrases come out slightly quieter than the phrases right before and after--sort of a brief whisper amidst talking at normal voice. Otherwise those moving high notes tend to sound hammered out - shouting, when there's no need to.
# Posted on March 9th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: That "low-high-low" phrase in reels
I understand what your saying, its a nice way to add a beat for the listener in a stream of notes by accenting certain notes... sometimes i do it sometimes I don't... play it the way you want to play it...
# Posted on March 9th 2004 by The Merry Highlander
Re: That "low-high-low" phrase in reels
Thanks, Will,
I wonder if *actually* playing the lower notes as a drone (keep playing them on the lower string when playing the higher notes on the higher string -- just playing double-stops) would sound good or would it sound muddied?
I'll have to try it out on my fiddle, tonight....
# Posted on March 9th 2004 by KeepFiddlin'
Re: That "low-high-low" phrase in reels
Len, if you listen closely you'll hear it played both ways, sometimes by the same fiddler in the same tune. Whether you ring those 'drone' notes throughout the phrase or play them more as distinct notes against the moving notes depends a lot on how you bow the phrase. To get them distinct, it's easiest if you just single bow every note--typically up-bowing the d's in this case, and down-bowing the moving notes. For a more droney sound, you'll want a shuffle pattern where you slur across the strings:
up-bow on "fd"
down-bow "a"
up-bow "dbd"
down-bow "a
up-bow "f"
Of course, that's just one way of doing it, and taken out of context from the phrases before and after.
# Posted on March 9th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: That "low-high-low" phrase in reels
So, to make sure I'm understanding this correctly:
IF I take the tune 'The Mountain Road' the first bit, eg F2 AF BFAF, and play it
up - F2
Down - AF
Up - BF
Down - AF
Or, vice versa, That would be a general starting point to having the first note in the couplet to be more accented than the second?
Just wanting to make sure I understood, so I can go home and practise.
-Pádraig
# Posted on March 9th 2004 by Pádraig
Re: That "low-high-low" phrase in reels
American old time fiddlers call the the first part "the coarse" and the second part "the fine"
# Posted on March 1st 2003 by dafydd
Re: That "low-high-low" phrase in reels
Pádraig, there are any number of bowing "patterns" you could use, and eventually you'll want to bow it every which way, inside and out, to find what works best for you and the particular sound you're trying to get.
For the phrase you've highlighted in Mountain Road, I'd suggest getting comfortable bowing it three specific ways before moving on to other approaches.
First, use single bows. Start with an up bow on the F, and then alternate bow strokes for every note: down on A, up on F, down on B, up on F, down on A, up on F. In short, up bow all the F's and down bow all the notes on the second string.
Now do it with a scratch or bowed triplet on that first F2.
I would do the triplet down-up-down, followed by:
up on AF
down on B
up on F
down on A
up on F
Finally, try this shuffle pattern, very common in the Sligo style, and well used throughout Irish fiddling.
up on F (typically slurred into on an up bow from the previous note or two)
down on A
up on FBF
down on A
up on F (and typcially continued slurring up onto the next note or two)
To get this shuffle to work as intended, you'll want to:
(1) swing it a fair amount.
(2) let the down bows naturally accent the two A's. Make those down bows quick and short, but light and controlled. No need to hammer on them, just a bit of pop.
(3) keep your wrist super loose so that the slurred string crossing (the FBF part) is smooth and light, just a near invisible dip of your wrist to catch that B.
(4) Almost let the B disappear into the 'drone' of the slurred F's.
Once you get these three approaches down, you can vary them however you like, but you'll have a solid rhythm base to work from.
Incidentally, the A part to In the Taproom is a great little exercise for the shuffle pattern. Play along with Burke and Hayes on the "In Concert" cd if you really want to lock in the feel.
# Posted on March 10th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: That "low-high-low" phrase in reels
Will Harmon, King of the Bow Pattern! Look for more of his bowing posts in the archives, Mr. Ogg. I mean, Og. ;)
# Posted on March 10th 2004 by Zina Lee
Tough but essential
In lesson I had with Tony DeMarco, he called it "figure 8 bowing". Assuming the first measure is F2 AFBFAF.
He said it was:
down F2 A
up FBF
down AF
But after practicing a few weeks I found that the real lesson was to practice slowly, whatever pattern it is, and forget about getting good at this in just a few weeks (well maybe some lucky people other than myself).
Once I got a shaky basic ability with this pattern, other little variations seemed to come out easier according to tune, context, etc. I'm sure all the above patterns sound pretty good if you can really play them.
This is one of those things that I think takes a while to really master. I briefly took classical guitar lessons years ago and the teacher said that the "tremolo" technique of a bass note and 3 repeated notes (famous in the piece "Recuerdos Del Alhambra") takes a minimum of 2 years to achieve basic competency, assuming diligent regular practice.
# Posted on March 10th 2004 by Test
Re: That "low-high-low" phrase in reels
Hmmm...that "figure eight" pattern strikes me as odd because you start and end on a down bow. Usually, a shuffle pattern leads back into itself so you can repeat it ad nauseum (which I adivse against doing, unless you actually _want_ to sound like Charlie Daniels
.
Bowing patterns are funny things. Like Wduty says, they take some concentrated practice to do well, and yet every fiddler worth his/her salt will tell you not to use patterns, at least not for more than a bar or two. So you play shuffles over and over until you can do them in your sleep, and then you use them sparingly, well mixed with 'random' slurs and single bows.
# Posted on March 10th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: That "low-high-low" phrase in reels
Yeah, I noticed that right away in tunes like Bunch of Green Rushes or Heathery Breeze where there's repeated instances of the figure. So I took that as an opportunity to practice the pattern reversed, which turns out not that difficult once you get a hang for the forward way. But I'll try out the above patterns - this is a pretty important thing to develop.
He did mention situations where he wants to end on the up bow in which case he changes the bow direction on either the first note or the last, I can't remember. (And that would resolve to a symmetrical pattern).
# Posted on March 10th 2004 by Test
Re: That "low-high-low" phrase in reels
Yep...play this music long enough, and the most important skills you'll develop are (1) the ability to anticipate with your bow to set up and follow up certain ornaments (especially scratch triplets) and phrases, and (2) the ability to bow your way into a corner and then back out again (Sean Smyth's words) without crashing. Most times, that means being able to sneak a single bow or slur--up or down--into things with just a nanosecond of premonition that you'll get yourself into trouble otherwise.
And of course, the more you play, the easier it gets to just play, as if the bow were taking care of itself. Part of that, though, is hours of woodshedding very consciously on all the options for bowing things like these phrases we're nit picking on here.
# Posted on March 10th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: That "low-high-low" phrase in reels
Tony D taught me the same pattern, starting downward. All the other Sligo players I've seen start it downward as well. In fact I've never seen it started on the up bow, sounds like a good workout I'll give it a shot.
# Posted on March 10th 2004 by Mad Baloney
Re: That "low-high-low" phrase in reels
Whether you start on a down or up bow depends on your own preferences, what direction you were going beforehand, and luck of the draw. Kevin Burke, among others, likes to swing into things on an up bow, and tends to accent down beats on up bows as well. As he says, the bow only goes in two directions, and always one at a time....
# Posted on March 10th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: That "low-high-low" phrase in reels
Going to have that kingdom of yours for a while then, aren't you, David? ;)
# Posted on March 10th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: That "low-high-low" phrase in reels
I imagine most of my prosody sounding like farty noise, no consonant strings needed....
Well, how's this for semi-certainty? The down bows take care of themselves. And one of the differences between a predictable fiddler and an interesting one is where s/he puts the accents. If they're all done with down bows, it sounds pretty stodgy. So the magic tends to happen by leaning into the hair on up bows. (Btw, now that I've earned a chunk of that kingdom, does it happen to include a certain little stone cottage in Wales?
# Posted on March 10th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: That "low-high-low" phrase in reels
*smirk* I'm fairly practised at the side step, David.
I'll volunteer! So long as I get to play every now and again, anyway. Alfie's just too damned cute.
Heigh ho, if Joh Doherty is crap, what does that make me? Damn. ;)
# Posted on March 10th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: That "low-high-low" phrase in reels
Hop little bunnies hop hop hop...!
# Posted on March 10th 2004 by Zina Lee