Perhaps it relates back to the times where "classical" music were only for the rich, and the "folk music" were for the poor. And now, even the rich can play folk, which is more joyful.
Any good classical musician worth his/her salt *will* be able to improvise, and not only play in just the classical style - they will have at least a fair chunk of Hungarian / Roumanian tzigane style, possibly jazz, possibly a bit of trad Scots / Irish - at least the ones I know are of this practise. They do admire the apparent spontanaeity of the traditional musicians (I'm talking mostly fiddle here), but they also see the limitations of the playing (only a few different keys, mostly first position playing, little variation in tone etc etc).
If there's any attitude from the classical guys, I think it's probably down to some sort of insecurity, be it cultural, musical, technical or whatever.
And the other way round, too, Jim -- I've seen plenty of chips on those traditional shoulders, too. I got plenty of joy out of playing in an orchestra back in my high school days. I'm sure we were dreadful, but there's nothing quite like the feeling of playing Mozart full bore as part of a large group...except for maybe a fine bunch of reels strung together swinging along in full flight...
The "problem" with Classical music, if there is a problem, is that it devolved into music to listen to, be it through expensive headphones or in an orchestra concert. The same thing has happened to most folk music too. Music is to be shared, to play together. Before there were radios and stereos, people played music at home to entertain each other, and this has to be reclaimed in the classical side and has to be cherished in the folk side. That's why "closed" sessions are evil.
I suspect it's balkanization. It's human nature to see yourself as belonging to one group, which generally means the folks in the other groups are the enemy. I have been around classical violinists that think trad. fiddlers are worm sweat. But I've met very accompished trad. players that think beginning players (all of them) are something akin to the little gift piles that my dogs leave scattered around the backyard. I suppose the fact we have used the terms "them" and "us" means we've engaged in tribalism too.
Ran- from the Tribe of Perputual Beginning Fiddlers (TPBF).
well, we finally have rain in So. Cal.
only really encountered this attitude once. an old conductor from an orchestra i play viola in was dissing trad musicians. so i had a wee through his letter box.
There was a poiunt made earlier about rich and poor. It is an important distinction that you really do need a pretty good instrument to play classical, where as playing diddly music, you can make most 1920's german strad copies sound fine.
I'm sad to say that it's still a class thing. And that's the whole root of the them and us situation
two different genres, two different styles yet often similar instruments, it bound to cause some conflict. There are things folk musicans are better at and things classical musicians are better at.
The Classical View
------------------------------------
Typical Classical Player: technical master of their instrument, years and years of blood, tears and sweat with great rewards for those few who master the truly difficult levels of playing. (Only a few would even admit that there are skills they don't have used in other genres).
Typical Tradist: Simplistic players with no grasp of tone, control, dynamics or musicality playing tunes so simple my dog could write them. And they dare to even compare themselves to us.
I sympathize with this view somewhat; great trad players can take these simple little tunes and create great music. But most trad players are not in the same universe that the classical players are in. Trad is *pop* music - Joe down the street is suppposed to be able to whip out a few tunes when we're down at the local for a pint. Not the same thing at all.
Yehudi Menuhin once referred to Frankie Gavin's playing as simple and that he doubted if the man could get above the second position.
Snobbery of the most outlandish. I would defy his likes to sit in a sess and get all the nuances that are in the trad music.
It's like listening to James Galway try to play diddley dee - excruciating!! Now he may be one of the finest classical fluters in the world but ...........
This is a silly question, and a silly discussion, in my view.
[rant]
First, there is no "they" that can successfully encapsulate the emotional responses of individual classical players.
Second, there is no "us" that can successfully encapsulate the identities of individual traditional players.
Third, it is becoming increasingly frustrating to me that people, all over the place, exhibit a tendency to read minds. Instead of reading minds or asking us to read them for you, why not simply ask the classical players you know about their reactions to traditional music, and listen to what they have to say? Why are people such intense psychologists and such terrible listeners?
Fourth, Frankie Gavin's probably couldn't get above the second position, and his playing was probably simple /by Yehudi Menuhin's standards/. At the very least, Frankie was playing according to a different set of values from Yehudi Menuhin.
Yehudi Menuhin recorded a couple of albums with Stephane Grapelli, so there's little evidence to suggest that Menuhin was a classical-only snob. I've also see a series that Menuhin did on music that suggests that he believed in letting a thousand flowers bloom. But the mind readers look at a quote like the one above and assume that Yehudi Menuhin was a snob. I see nothing in the text that says that; that's just interpretation. Perhaps he said it in an admiring way.
Finally, how does it affect you in any case? That is, if it's working for you and your playing companions and your hosts in the pub or the house where you're playing, why do you care what other people think? We play this stuff for us--for ourselves, for our own interest or amusement or advancement or whatever. Gird yourself in the knowledge that it works for you. If others don't get it, we can lead them to the water but we can't make them drink it. Whatever happened to strokes for folks?
"Them and us" only takes effect when you're willing to create a "them" and an "us" in your own head. Everyone's free to make himself miserable, comparing himself to other people, but my recommendation is to drop the characterizations, start dealing with real people, and be happy.
Michael Bolton, I think there's a fair amount of truth in what you say. People do build on prejudice, and musicians of any genre are no exception. It's easy for someone who is brimming with confidence and superb talent who is verbose (eg violinist Itzak Perlman) to make an innocuous comment about "fiddle players", then for the rest of the "fiddling" community to come down on him like a ton of bricks, calling him a snob etc etc.
Same applies to anyone in a position of fame. I personally have found that the more talented a musician is, the less likely they are to bitch about another player, or type of music etc. There are of course exceptions.
Brendan, I saw the programme where Yehudi Menuhin spoke about Frankie Gavin. He was actually paying him a compliment, because he also emphasised his solid rhythm and pure intonation. He said, "He [Frankie] couldn't play the works of Back, Hindemith [and others] because he never leaves the first position (or rarely)..." ... he was making a distinction between Frankie's style and a classical style..that's all.
Michael Gill - I don't see why you really need a good insrument to play classical - not unless you are taking it to the concert stage, and therefore need some mighty tone projection...
Great rant, Michael. Our little posse consists of two trad guys, four classical violinists, and two jazz leftovers. Everybody plays everything, and has a great time. One fiddler, first violinist of the local symphony, clearly sounds better at everything she plays..If you're musical, you're musical. When you go to the music shop, you can only buy a violin..you can't get a classical violin or a trad violin, or a jazz violin. Play what you like and smile.
I played Irish for years when at the university. Then I stopped playing music altogether when having children and the such.
Then my daughter turned 4 and I put her in violin classes, hoping I could play again Irish with someone, since we live in Santiago, Chile, with no real Irish music scene.
So she is 9 now, plays wonderfully, wants to take up violin professionally (and studies her but off!). However, when we went to Washington DC we went to high level Irish sessions and played!
For her, her greatest satisfactions have been playing solo with the main orchestra in Santiago and playing in that session with "advanced musicians".
My greatest satisfaction is that classical training is making her a great musician already, that we spend two hours together everyday around music and playing together (I play low whistle and tin whistle).
At the end of the day, it's all about emotions and sharing.
I forgot to say that my daughter's "maestra" is a top violin player in Santiago and has fully supported her. She has always said that my daughter can play as much Irish trad as she wants.
Vivienne, I took several semesters of violin in college (in Montana) from Walter Oliveras, who hailed originally from Santiago. I 'auditioned' with another teacher, and then switcehd to Walter when he returned from his sabatical and recital at Carnegie Hall. He accepted what I was doing right away--studying technique to improve my abilities on the instrument, regardless of what type of music I would end up playing.
I'll look forward to hearing your daughter's cds someday, in whatever genres she plays. What a terrific start you've given her!
I've never heard a classical tenor banjo player that was a patch on Gerry O'Connor or Gary Peterson.
Menuhin was definitely misquoted earlier - he's always expressed great admiration for Irish and Scots fiddle playing. He did a series on BBC once with Alasdair Fraser I think.
...and...'What Do You Care What Other People Think?'...
or even, 'Surely You're Joking,Mr Pitnekit'
seriously,i'm with Michael B's rant.
less seriously,do tell us all about these classical tenor banjo players,Bren. there's an oxymoron and a half for you.
i'm now off to listen to the best tune played by the best fiddle player on the best fiddle with the best backing and best production off the best album of the best competition best winner of the best of all time.
pint or two for you if you can tell what i'll be thinking at noon this coming friday,glenn
best wishes.no,really!
I could have sworn I posted here yesterday, but I must have typed it and then forgot to post it.
1) Good rant Michael Bolton!
2) I used to play regularly in a musical groupage (I will avoid the words ensemble and session for this). One lass there was a classically trained violinist. She could play anything from the dots, but without dots she couldn't play Three Blind Mice. I, at the other extreme, as a self taught whistle & flute ist, could play any tune I heard a time or two, but could not play anything from the dots. We each admired the other's skills and each took pleasure in our own.
The idea of "us and them", or "hatred or jealousy" between Trad Musos and Classicals is just as daft as the notion that cat owners are nicer people than dog owners. i.e. You really will encounter it, but it is daft.
Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
I
# Posted on February 21st 2004 by pitnekit
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
I think everyone tends to look askance at things (and people) they don't understand, either way.
# Posted on February 21st 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
Perhaps it relates back to the times where "classical" music were only for the rich, and the "folk music" were for the poor. And now, even the rich can play folk, which is more joyful.
Lars.
# Posted on February 21st 2004 by Larshansen
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
Any good classical musician worth his/her salt *will* be able to improvise, and not only play in just the classical style - they will have at least a fair chunk of Hungarian / Roumanian tzigane style, possibly jazz, possibly a bit of trad Scots / Irish - at least the ones I know are of this practise. They do admire the apparent spontanaeity of the traditional musicians (I'm talking mostly fiddle here), but they also see the limitations of the playing (only a few different keys, mostly first position playing, little variation in tone etc etc).
If there's any attitude from the classical guys, I think it's probably down to some sort of insecurity, be it cultural, musical, technical or whatever.
Jim
# Posted on February 21st 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
And the other way round, too, Jim -- I've seen plenty of chips on those traditional shoulders, too. I got plenty of joy out of playing in an orchestra back in my high school days. I'm sure we were dreadful, but there's nothing quite like the feeling of playing Mozart full bore as part of a large group...except for maybe a fine bunch of reels strung together swinging along in full flight...
# Posted on February 21st 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
The "problem" with Classical music, if there is a problem, is that it devolved into music to listen to, be it through expensive headphones or in an orchestra concert. The same thing has happened to most folk music too. Music is to be shared, to play together. Before there were radios and stereos, people played music at home to entertain each other, and this has to be reclaimed in the classical side and has to be cherished in the folk side. That's why "closed" sessions are evil.
# Posted on February 21st 2004 by glauber
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
Oh and the answer to the question is: yes, they hate you!
AND they're zealous!
# Posted on February 21st 2004 by glauber
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
I suspect it's balkanization. It's human nature to see yourself as belonging to one group, which generally means the folks in the other groups are the enemy. I have been around classical violinists that think trad. fiddlers are worm sweat. But I've met very accompished trad. players that think beginning players (all of them) are something akin to the little gift piles that my dogs leave scattered around the backyard. I suppose the fact we have used the terms "them" and "us" means we've engaged in tribalism too.
Ran- from the Tribe of Perputual Beginning Fiddlers (TPBF).
well, we finally have rain in So. Cal.
# Posted on February 21st 2004 by Ran
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
only really encountered this attitude once. an old conductor from an orchestra i play viola in was dissing trad musicians. so i had a wee through his letter box.
well you've gotta defend the tribe.
# Posted on February 21st 2004 by NickPhelan
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
Hope ya had a few beers first.
# Posted on February 21st 2004 by Ran
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
The hilarious thing is that the guy in question asked me a few lessons and they just can
# Posted on February 21st 2004 by pitnekit
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
Classical musicians are not as smart as traditional musicians, and they're uglier too. :>)}
(Balkanization)
People do what they do, and the things that they do differently make them feel special -- occasionally, superior.
# Posted on February 21st 2004 by grego
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
There was a poiunt made earlier about rich and poor. It is an important distinction that you really do need a pretty good instrument to play classical, where as playing diddly music, you can make most 1920's german strad copies sound fine.
I'm sad to say that it's still a class thing. And that's the whole root of the them and us situation
# Posted on February 21st 2004 by ...
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
two different genres, two different styles yet often similar instruments, it bound to cause some conflict. There are things folk musicans are better at and things classical musicians are better at.
# Posted on February 22nd 2004 by scottyboy
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
But they're not similar instruments. One lot are invariably and conciderably better
# Posted on February 22nd 2004 by ...
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
The Classical View
------------------------------------
Typical Classical Player: technical master of their instrument, years and years of blood, tears and sweat with great rewards for those few who master the truly difficult levels of playing. (Only a few would even admit that there are skills they don't have used in other genres).
Typical Tradist: Simplistic players with no grasp of tone, control, dynamics or musicality playing tunes so simple my dog could write them. And they dare to even compare themselves to us.
I sympathize with this view somewhat; great trad players can take these simple little tunes and create great music. But most trad players are not in the same universe that the classical players are in. Trad is *pop* music - Joe down the street is suppposed to be able to whip out a few tunes when we're down at the local for a pint. Not the same thing at all.
# Posted on February 22nd 2004 by glenn
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
Yehudi Menuhin once referred to Frankie Gavin's playing as simple and that he doubted if the man could get above the second position.
Snobbery of the most outlandish. I would defy his likes to sit in a sess and get all the nuances that are in the trad music.
It's like listening to James Galway try to play diddley dee - excruciating!! Now he may be one of the finest classical fluters in the world but ...........
# Posted on February 22nd 2004 by breandan
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
This is a silly question, and a silly discussion, in my view.
[rant]
First, there is no "they" that can successfully encapsulate the emotional responses of individual classical players.
Second, there is no "us" that can successfully encapsulate the identities of individual traditional players.
Third, it is becoming increasingly frustrating to me that people, all over the place, exhibit a tendency to read minds. Instead of reading minds or asking us to read them for you, why not simply ask the classical players you know about their reactions to traditional music, and listen to what they have to say? Why are people such intense psychologists and such terrible listeners?
Fourth, Frankie Gavin's probably couldn't get above the second position, and his playing was probably simple /by Yehudi Menuhin's standards/. At the very least, Frankie was playing according to a different set of values from Yehudi Menuhin.
Yehudi Menuhin recorded a couple of albums with Stephane Grapelli, so there's little evidence to suggest that Menuhin was a classical-only snob. I've also see a series that Menuhin did on music that suggests that he believed in letting a thousand flowers bloom. But the mind readers look at a quote like the one above and assume that Yehudi Menuhin was a snob. I see nothing in the text that says that; that's just interpretation. Perhaps he said it in an admiring way.
Finally, how does it affect you in any case? That is, if it's working for you and your playing companions and your hosts in the pub or the house where you're playing, why do you care what other people think? We play this stuff for us--for ourselves, for our own interest or amusement or advancement or whatever. Gird yourself in the knowledge that it works for you. If others don't get it, we can lead them to the water but we can't make them drink it. Whatever happened to strokes for folks?
"Them and us" only takes effect when you're willing to create a "them" and an "us" in your own head. Everyone's free to make himself miserable, comparing himself to other people, but my recommendation is to drop the characterizations, start dealing with real people, and be happy.
[/rant]
---Michael B.
# Posted on February 22nd 2004 by MichaelBolton
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
Michael Bolton, I think there's a fair amount of truth in what you say. People do build on prejudice, and musicians of any genre are no exception. It's easy for someone who is brimming with confidence and superb talent who is verbose (eg violinist Itzak Perlman) to make an innocuous comment about "fiddle players", then for the rest of the "fiddling" community to come down on him like a ton of bricks, calling him a snob etc etc.
Same applies to anyone in a position of fame. I personally have found that the more talented a musician is, the less likely they are to bitch about another player, or type of music etc. There are of course exceptions.
Brendan, I saw the programme where Yehudi Menuhin spoke about Frankie Gavin. He was actually paying him a compliment, because he also emphasised his solid rhythm and pure intonation. He said, "He [Frankie] couldn't play the works of Back, Hindemith [and others] because he never leaves the first position (or rarely)..." ... he was making a distinction between Frankie's style and a classical style..that's all.
Michael Gill - I don't see why you really need a good insrument to play classical - not unless you are taking it to the concert stage, and therefore need some mighty tone projection...
Jim
# Posted on February 22nd 2004 by Worldfiddler
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
Great rant, Michael. Our little posse consists of two trad guys, four classical violinists, and two jazz leftovers. Everybody plays everything, and has a great time. One fiddler, first violinist of the local symphony, clearly sounds better at everything she plays..If you're musical, you're musical. When you go to the music shop, you can only buy a violin..you can't get a classical violin or a trad violin, or a jazz violin. Play what you like and smile.
# Posted on February 22nd 2004 by Dust Lad
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
Yes, I agree with Michael, Jim and Dust.
I played Irish for years when at the university. Then I stopped playing music altogether when having children and the such.
Then my daughter turned 4 and I put her in violin classes, hoping I could play again Irish with someone, since we live in Santiago, Chile, with no real Irish music scene.
So she is 9 now, plays wonderfully, wants to take up violin professionally (and studies her but off!). However, when we went to Washington DC we went to high level Irish sessions and played!
For her, her greatest satisfactions have been playing solo with the main orchestra in Santiago and playing in that session with "advanced musicians".
My greatest satisfaction is that classical training is making her a great musician already, that we spend two hours together everyday around music and playing together (I play low whistle and tin whistle).
At the end of the day, it's all about emotions and sharing.
My daughter and I love classical and Irish.
Vivienne
# Posted on February 22nd 2004 by Vivienne
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
I forgot to say that my daughter's "maestra" is a top violin player in Santiago and has fully supported her. She has always said that my daughter can play as much Irish trad as she wants.
# Posted on February 22nd 2004 by Vivienne
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
Good rant Michael B.
Vivienne, I took several semesters of violin in college (in Montana) from Walter Oliveras, who hailed originally from Santiago. I 'auditioned' with another teacher, and then switcehd to Walter when he returned from his sabatical and recital at Carnegie Hall. He accepted what I was doing right away--studying technique to improve my abilities on the instrument, regardless of what type of music I would end up playing.
I'll look forward to hearing your daughter's cds someday, in whatever genres she plays. What a terrific start you've given her!
# Posted on February 22nd 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
I've never heard a classical tenor banjo player that was a patch on Gerry O'Connor or Gary Peterson.
Menuhin was definitely misquoted earlier - he's always expressed great admiration for Irish and Scots fiddle playing. He did a series on BBC once with Alasdair Fraser I think.
# Posted on February 22nd 2004 by Bren
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
Wait; I *can* read minds!! We've already proven this - and I can bend spoons, too....
# Posted on February 23rd 2004 by glenn
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
...and...'What Do You Care What Other People Think?'...
or even, 'Surely You're Joking,Mr Pitnekit'
seriously,i'm with Michael B's rant.
less seriously,do tell us all about these classical tenor banjo players,Bren. there's an oxymoron and a half for you.
i'm now off to listen to the best tune played by the best fiddle player on the best fiddle with the best backing and best production off the best album of the best competition best winner of the best of all time.
pint or two for you if you can tell what i'll be thinking at noon this coming friday,glenn
best wishes.no,really!
# Posted on February 23rd 2004 by biggus dave
Re: Do they hate us or are they just jealous?
I could have sworn I posted here yesterday, but I must have typed it and then forgot to post it.
1) Good rant Michael Bolton!
2) I used to play regularly in a musical groupage (I will avoid the words ensemble and session for this). One lass there was a classically trained violinist. She could play anything from the dots, but without dots she couldn't play Three Blind Mice. I, at the other extreme, as a self taught whistle & flute ist, could play any tune I heard a time or two, but could not play anything from the dots. We each admired the other's skills and each took pleasure in our own.
The idea of "us and them", or "hatred or jealousy" between Trad Musos and Classicals is just as daft as the notion that cat owners are nicer people than dog owners. i.e. You really will encounter it, but it is daft.
Dave
# Posted on February 23rd 2004 by showaddydadito