What would you do if there was someone you know who was truly awful in session. I mean really really out there. We are a close-knit and very tolerant group, but this is the sort of occurrance where I want to be anywhere but in that room, having to listen, having to sit next to other people who have to listen to painful, long, tuneless renditions. This isn't a friend, but a good acquaintance...and after this last session I've heard two other people in the group comment that 'someone should say something'. No one is volunteering. What would you do?
You simply call upon the crowd at the pub... early in the evening before too many drinks... in this way "Hey everybody you remember last week when "What's her/his/its name" sang for us.... who wants to hear him/her/it again this week?"
Me, I'd wait it out. Try to concentrate on the genuine feeling, try and search to find something good to say afterwards while s/he is singing, or close your eyes and try to silently learn that tune you've been hearing in your head...or if it's just desperate, get up and go to the bathroom or quietly go to the bar with a friend or two, returning when it's over.
Sooner or later, it's probable that your acquaintance, if they've any sensitivity at all, will probably ask one of you what they think. At that point, you might want to something genuinely helpful and pray that they don't take it personally. "Oh, I think you sound great/nice/have such great feeling to your singing, but if you want to improve, you should try taking a lesson or two from So-and-so and get some voice training."
Excellent advice above. If you say something negative, people who don't know you very well will wonder what you say about them when they're not around.
A great songwriter I know, when he critiques new songs by wannabes, has a great way of offering a negative comment that's twisted around enough that it sounds nice. He says, "I really liked what you were trying to do with that song." Maybe some variant of that would work here.
A guy in our session did some godawful singing a few sessions in a row. After getting some friendly, professional advice (alomg the lines of: It's hard to back you on the fiddle/flute/... because it's a wee bit out of tune (his voice, not his guitar)) he stopped singing and playing the guitar for a few months. Then one night, he got all ready for an unaccompanied song. There were a few worried faces around the table, until he finished the first verse. The problem was the coordination of voice and guitar-playing. After this his songs became quite popular, both among the musos and the punters. All in all, he was a very good singer, but a terrible guitarplayer. (Walk, talk and chew gum.......?)
What is the reaction of the general populace at the end of one of these "songs". If there is a stunned silence the "singer" might notice that it hasn't gone down too well.
A less caring way is, after a few verses, ask out loud "Are we about halfway yet?" - if it really is truly as awful as you describe, then the rest of the room is likely to react to this by ROFLtheirAO, which might also get a message across.
Does the singer enjoy the songs - if so then look for the feeling rather than the tunefulness and maybe you can find something worthy. To be honest I wouldn't really worry unless they are into singing too much in which case honesty is the best policy - quiet word in the ear about how much practice they need before bringing it on again??
You can always bear the bad news, one on one, and blame someone else E.g., "I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but the bodhran players are laughing behind your back. I thought you'd want to know. They say your voice is like a garbage disposal in reverse. I'd hate for your feelings to get hurt in a big public way."
Seriously, perhaps the most constructive approach is to find someone who gives voice lessons and hook the two up. Maybe another singer within the session? If you really want to tread lightly at first, it could be a simple offer to get together and swap songs, and then gently guide Mr. Tuneless toward better pitch, tonal quality, etc.
If that seems unlikely, another option is to record him singing at the session, and then play it back for him. He may not realize how bad he sounds himself.
If you have the repertoire and the stamina, then play BIG sets of tunes - 10-15mins duration or longer. You get your tunes in, the punters usually like it or are at least indifferent to it, and hack singers might actually be a welcome break after a blast of reels.
In my experience, it's better to have your strongest players start stuff most of the participants know and just keep it going.
You might want to play a tune more than three times - it's okay to do this as long as you communicate your intentions to your peers. It may not be a popular thing to do in some circles, but there are advantages to playing tunes 5 or even 6 times, such as trying out new variations, phrasing, and really nailing down a difficult passage. It's also a great help to ear learning.
Will, the recording the session thing and giving him/her a copy -- what a great idea! Especially if you do it with no comment beyond a "hey, I recorded the session and thought you might like a copy since you're singing on it!" and of course handing it round to a few others at the same time so as not to look too overly pointed.
And that way if s/he still can't seem to hear that s/he's off tune, off kilter, just plain off, then you know you'll need to take stronger measures and approach him/her directly on the subject, because there's no standard of quality operating there.
BTW, I personally would never recommend doing something like interrupting a singer during a song, no matter how bad. It just makes you look rude and unsupportive of beginners instead of them merely sounding bad.
Joking apart, I wouldn't advocate rudeness. If beginners are not helped they can't improve. If this person is not a beginner, then something needs doing.
Me, I'm not so good that I can afford that kind of karma. But fair play to you. And I agree with Dave that if the person is not a beginner, stronger measures must be taken, and I LOVE Will's suggestion because it helps you to find out whether the singer knows what they sound like.
Still, it's worth noting again that Tyghress says that they *like* this person, although they're not a close friend. They're trying to find a way to keep from having to open a vein without causing someone to open theirs, I think.
I just happen to think that you don't have to completely write somebody off right away, just maybe a bit at a time as they demonstrate the need to be dealt with more strongly. If you're the impatient sort, cut to the chase, by all means, it's not my decision or what I think is important about being a person who plays music that are important, but your own.
I agree with Zina. I've experienced the, IMHO more supportive,
early communication about a vocal problem AND being told in
front of a show cast that my voice wasn't ready for the part and
that the director didn't really want me singing that part (I
sometimes wondered if it bothered him more that I didn't quit so
he could have the part or that I just ignored his rant ... wha'd he
expect from a bari. replacing the tenor that quit...).
It's how I'm told or asked to work on something that can influence
my opinion about the, err, social functionality of the requestor.
I think we teach others how to treat us; if I want a supportive
session then I try to comment constructively. If I'm searching for
an adrenaline rush and excitement, then I'll kick over the table,
belch loudly a few times, wait make sure everyone was fidgeting
nervously with their instruments, and use a stage whisper to
mutter about the singer (in third person )
I think in the land of oversized fragile egos (ie most sessions) I think you should remember to distinguish between two situations:
1) Somebody asks you what you think of their performance
2) Somebody does not ask you what you think
In the first case, you have the opprotunity to be critical without nearly as much danger of greatly offending them.
In the second case, you will absolutely destroy them by offering critical information - unless they have no ego in which case you should thank your stars (I'd take a bad player without an ego over a good one wth an ego any day).
The trick, and there have been several suggestions that will trigger this, is to get them to ask you what you think.
Many sessions I've been a part of use very casual rudeness to convey a point. Get up and get a pint when they start singing. They can't actually be upset about it, but it might get them to ask you about it (which is our goal here).
Thanks for all the suggestions. I will ponder and see if one or more of the above would be useful.
I waver between the 'grin and bear it' and 'say something tactful' but I'm too often clumsy at the nice approach. I also am a tad bit rude, to be honest. I can't listen to it...I just can't. Our session is in a loud enough bar that I'm not the only one talking (and I was quite a distance too), but I know its rude and I should behave better.
I also have to say that unless its a new person singing, or someone (gasp!) learns and sings something new, I have zero tolerance. I have spent three years of weekly renditions of the same songs from the same people, (except this one....who does something different nearly every time....but tunelessly, artlessly, and painfully) and I know that my intolerance is legendary.
The corker was when I was doing a really nice rendition of a slow air with a fiddler, and our self-appointed master of ceremonies decided to grab a mike and sing with his forced warble (he thinks it makes him sound authenic).
Okay, Tyg...enough. Its not MY session, and I'm sure there are enough people out there who can point a finger at me for one thing or another. Many thanks for the suggestions again. I think I'll make a recording of the next session and see what this person thinks of it.
You have to sacrifice a lot of time and effort to be any good at music. The trade offs are worth it, IMO, so I don’t understand fence-sitting attitudes among inexperienced players who own good instruments, never practice at home, and yet feel confident enough to practice in public.
To them I would say "practice it at home or sell your axe and take up some other hobby where it’s OK to be a complete doofus, like golf."
Otherwise, get a teacher for feedback and don’t inflict yourself on a pub session unless you are able to get through a few dozen tunes in reasonably good shape. Yeah it’s hard, yeah it’s lonely at times, yeah you tend to drink more and smile less, but there are moments when you overcome obstacles of technique, repertoire, timing and style that are better than any drug-induced high.
Where I live (Chicago), balladeer types and folkies go to open mike nights and leave Irish sessions alone. Well, most of them, anyway; I stay away from the one or two sessions where the aforementioned folkie element makes its presence felt. I don’t need the aggravation. And both factions are happier where they can pursue their respective art forms uninterrupted. I won’t take my pipes to an open mike or a song circle because it’s an inappropriate venue IMO.
It’s hard to be compassionate to someone who believes their singing or playing is fine when they plainly suck like a 9mm chest wound, and won’t take a hint from the pained expressions of those around them. I’m not talking about STYLE, I’m talking about basic issues of technique –being able to play or sing mostly in tune and keep steady time.
It’s even harder when you’ve been around that sort of thing for years. So if I seem a bit brusque and impatient, it’s because I’m out of patience and good will where this is concerned. I’m putting a sizeable portion of my waking life into getting better at ITM and I’m just out of compassion for people who aren’t trying that hard, yet think they can just show up anywhere anytime and expect to be accommodated. To quote a Clare box player I know: “F--- dat”. Even Irish hospitality has its limits.
Sometimes if you want to be able to really enjoy a pure drop session you have to be emotionally prepared for others to think of you as a complete SOB. I’m not talking about being rude and dismissive to newcomers and beginners. I’m talking about keeping your session on track in terms of repertoire and having some standards as far as some basic issues of technique are concerned – tuning and timing being the most important. Tempo is negotiable to a point, i.e., it’s a POLKA, not a funeral dirge! Lift is way more important.
The problem seems chronic. If you really want to remain friends with this person, than a diplomatic but firm middle path is probably the best initial approach but remember you're trying to make your session more enjoyable.
Don’t let people who don’t have a sincere passion for ITM or improving as musicians or singers steal your good times and your music.
Peace, or failing that, an Overton low whistle judiciously and vigorously applied to the offending party's head should do the job.
A related problem is the player who plays one instrument badly (the one usually brought to the session), but also plays a couple of other instruments very well indeed. Said player also knows all the tunes and frequently leads off, on the badly-played instrument.
Because the player is also a very nice, and knowledgeable, person, we now consider the problem to be insoluble within a social context.
Grab a mic? Grab a *mic*? See, now, right there I'm already feeling less sympathetic to the guy. *grin*
If it's of any help, I'm pretty bluntly spoken myself, Tyghress. (And keep in mind that he of the eight appendages up above there lives in Chicago, and the standard is way higher there than here in the middle of nowhere, and there's less of a need to get along with everybody even if you don't think much of their playing.) I can honestly say that I out and out offend enough people with aforementioned plain speaking while never meaning to, so I tend to err on the side of trying to be nicer than nice, because with me that tends to equal out to normal for most other people.
While, yes, I tend to start at "treat them nicely and as I'd rather someone treated me" and start by gentle hints ("funny, everytime I open my mouth to sing, people get up to go to the bar"), there does come a point where you simply have to say something.
Hopefully Will's clever listen-and-weep strategy will come to something. Keep us posted, I'll be curious to see if it works.
nah, just remember to wash off the blood and hair and dip the whistle in bleach afterward. germophobes can autoclave if they want, but that seems excessive IMO.
Trevor, doesn't the player in your case realize s'he's not ready to play out on the 'flamoozle horn' yet? I mean, if s/he has personal standards enough to be decent on other instruments, how can s/he not hear the difference on this one? Sure it's tempting to want to play your new-found passion for your friends, but not if you can do it competently.
I've taken my whistles and even the flute to a couple of sessions, but I only haul them out on tunes I know I can play at tempo, in time, and in tune. And I've done it only a handful of times over the course of a year. That hasn't stopped one or two people from barking at me--in mid tune--to "quit pretending like you can play that thing," so maybe I've broken my own rule here. *sheepish grin* (Other session mates have been more encouraging, so I'm not sure where the perception problem actually lies in my case.)
But if I brought my banjo, which I've played for all of 3 months, to the session and tried to play along on every set, I think I'd hear the truth in it if someone quietly suggested that I keep practicing and in the meanwhile get the fiddle back out for the session.
I don't want to suggest that you compromise yourself or do anthing illegal, impractical, or repugnant, but perhaps someone could get themself and your singer very drunk, take them to bed, and end the whole thing with "That was great! Now, if you could only sing like that!"
Simply suggest that he/she audition for American Idol. That one British guy on that show will set 'em straight. And you won't have to be the one to say anything.
Being primarily a singer myself - I tend to wait until I'm asked to sing if I'm sitting in on a tune session. Most folks I play with know I sing and I figure if they want to hear it - or extend some acknowledgement to me, then they'll ask. You could suggest to the offender that this is a reasonable protocol to follow ina tune session. Sometimes, when we've had serial offenders in one area or another, we've resorted to compiling a 'session etiquette' list on occasions, to try and get the message across - even getting the Pub to frame a suitably decorated copy and mount it on the wall in the session room.
Another ploy is to play 'tag conversation' - and take turns at engaging the offender in chat, preferably just as they are about to draw the starting breath - gives someone a chance to slip another tune in there! I do agree with Zina though - open rudeness just gives the session a bad name and deepens the divide.
Ideally, I'd love to see a session where people dance to the tunes, give respect to the songs, LISTEN to slow airs (after all, most of those are songs too...) and generally support one another's art forms. After all, IMHO, the culture depends on all its elements for its strength - music, dance, song and language.
I can sing but don't sing in the pub because of that.
I have recently solved a similar problem of someone wanting to take over with songs after 10.30 pm by making it a "No open book" session to stop people trying brand new songs they havn't learned on us. The second plan of attack was to ask the offender to sing as soon as they arrived and sat down. I also threatened to go to their song session and play all night.
It worked as they didn't have the guts to sing when sober and didn't have the brains to learn songs by heart.
I am fair though, and do have an un-announced song around the room session on an infrequent basis just to see who can and who can't sing - only one song each though and always at the start of the evening.
This emphasises to the bad singers that most of the good musicians can sing but quite rightly, choose not to sing in a tune session and also that many of the audience who don't play, can also provide a song at the drop of a hat even when sober.
What to do? Singer truly awful
What to do? Singer truly awful
What would you do if there was someone you know who was truly awful in session. I mean really really out there. We are a close-knit and very tolerant group, but this is the sort of occurrance where I want to be anywhere but in that room, having to listen, having to sit next to other people who have to listen to painful, long, tuneless renditions. This isn't a friend, but a good acquaintance...and after this last session I've heard two other people in the group comment that 'someone should say something'. No one is volunteering. What would you do?
# Posted on February 19th 2004 by Tyghress
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
You simply call upon the crowd at the pub... early in the evening before too many drinks... in this way "Hey everybody you remember last week when "What's her/his/its name" sang for us.... who wants to hear him/her/it again this week?"
# Posted on February 19th 2004 by The Merry Highlander
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
umm- do crann on the pipes; start with garrett barrys and procedd to the blarney pilgrim?? No I suspect not, sigh
# Posted on February 19th 2004 by I_Fel
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
Me, I'd wait it out. Try to concentrate on the genuine feeling, try and search to find something good to say afterwards while s/he is singing, or close your eyes and try to silently learn that tune you've been hearing in your head...or if it's just desperate, get up and go to the bathroom or quietly go to the bar with a friend or two, returning when it's over.
Sooner or later, it's probable that your acquaintance, if they've any sensitivity at all, will probably ask one of you what they think. At that point, you might want to something genuinely helpful and pray that they don't take it personally. "Oh, I think you sound great/nice/have such great feeling to your singing, but if you want to improve, you should try taking a lesson or two from So-and-so and get some voice training."
YMMV, though...
# Posted on February 19th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
Excellent advice above. If you say something negative, people who don't know you very well will wonder what you say about them when they're not around.
# Posted on February 19th 2004 by rainog
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
A great songwriter I know, when he critiques new songs by wannabes, has a great way of offering a negative comment that's twisted around enough that it sounds nice. He says, "I really liked what you were trying to do with that song." Maybe some variant of that would work here.
# Posted on February 19th 2004 by GaryAMartin
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
A guy in our session did some godawful singing a few sessions in a row. After getting some friendly, professional advice (alomg the lines of: It's hard to back you on the fiddle/flute/... because it's a wee bit out of tune (his voice, not his guitar)) he stopped singing and playing the guitar for a few months. Then one night, he got all ready for an unaccompanied song. There were a few worried faces around the table, until he finished the first verse. The problem was the coordination of voice and guitar-playing. After this his songs became quite popular, both among the musos and the punters. All in all, he was a very good singer, but a terrible guitarplayer. (Walk, talk and chew gum.......?)
Snorre
--------------
We tune coz we care.
# Posted on February 19th 2004 by snorre
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
Ah yes - the joys of Vogon poetry.
What is the reaction of the general populace at the end of one of these "songs". If there is a stunned silence the "singer" might notice that it hasn't gone down too well.
A less caring way is, after a few verses, ask out loud "Are we about halfway yet?" - if it really is truly as awful as you describe, then the rest of the room is likely to react to this by ROFLtheirAO, which might also get a message across.
good luck with it
Dave
# Posted on February 19th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
Drink alot more....eventually he'll sound better.
# Posted on February 19th 2004 by dinjosra
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
Does the singer enjoy the songs - if so then look for the feeling rather than the tunefulness and maybe you can find something worthy. To be honest I wouldn't really worry unless they are into singing too much in which case honesty is the best policy - quiet word in the ear about how much practice they need before bringing it on again??
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by breandan
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
Throw the bum out!!! Life's too short to waste your time...and your sanity.
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by Odin
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
Except that they like this person, Aiki. Just not the singing.
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
You can always bear the bad news, one on one, and blame someone else
E.g., "I'm sorry to be the one to tell you this, but the bodhran players are laughing behind your back. I thought you'd want to know. They say your voice is like a garbage disposal in reverse. I'd hate for your feelings to get hurt in a big public way."
Seriously, perhaps the most constructive approach is to find someone who gives voice lessons and hook the two up. Maybe another singer within the session? If you really want to tread lightly at first, it could be a simple offer to get together and swap songs, and then gently guide Mr. Tuneless toward better pitch, tonal quality, etc.
If that seems unlikely, another option is to record him singing at the session, and then play it back for him. He may not realize how bad he sounds himself.
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
If you have the repertoire and the stamina, then play BIG sets of tunes - 10-15mins duration or longer. You get your tunes in, the punters usually like it or are at least indifferent to it, and hack singers might actually be a welcome break after a blast of reels.
In my experience, it's better to have your strongest players start stuff most of the participants know and just keep it going.
You might want to play a tune more than three times - it's okay to do this as long as you communicate your intentions to your peers. It may not be a popular thing to do in some circles, but there are advantages to playing tunes 5 or even 6 times, such as trying out new variations, phrasing, and really nailing down a difficult passage. It's also a great help to ear learning.
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by Hanley
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
Start clapping loudly at the end of the first verse, saying things like, "Alright! Good Job!"
Make a comment like, "I've never heard singing quite like that before."
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by tocotodo
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
Will, the recording the session thing and giving him/her a copy -- what a great idea! Especially if you do it with no comment beyond a "hey, I recorded the session and thought you might like a copy since you're singing on it!" and of course handing it round to a few others at the same time so as not to look too overly pointed.
And that way if s/he still can't seem to hear that s/he's off tune, off kilter, just plain off, then you know you'll need to take stronger measures and approach him/her directly on the subject, because there's no standard of quality operating there.
BTW, I personally would never recommend doing something like interrupting a singer during a song, no matter how bad. It just makes you look rude and unsupportive of beginners instead of them merely sounding bad.
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
Zina's right of course.
Joking apart, I wouldn't advocate rudeness. If beginners are not helped they can't improve. If this person is not a beginner, then something needs doing.
Dave
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
I guess I'm not burdened by giving a flying f--- what other people think of me or my opinions.
I'd tell this person to work on it or f--- off.
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by Hanley
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
Me, I'm not so good that I can afford that kind of karma. But fair play to you. And I agree with Dave that if the person is not a beginner, stronger measures must be taken, and I LOVE Will's suggestion because it helps you to find out whether the singer knows what they sound like.
Still, it's worth noting again that Tyghress says that they *like* this person, although they're not a close friend. They're trying to find a way to keep from having to open a vein without causing someone to open theirs, I think.
I just happen to think that you don't have to completely write somebody off right away, just maybe a bit at a time as they demonstrate the need to be dealt with more strongly. If you're the impatient sort, cut to the chase, by all means, it's not my decision or what I think is important about being a person who plays music that are important, but your own.
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
I agree with Zina. I've experienced the, IMHO more supportive,
)
early communication about a vocal problem AND being told in
front of a show cast that my voice wasn't ready for the part and
that the director didn't really want me singing that part (I
sometimes wondered if it bothered him more that I didn't quit so
he could have the part or that I just ignored his rant ... wha'd he
expect from a bari. replacing the tenor that quit...).
It's how I'm told or asked to work on something that can influence
my opinion about the, err, social functionality of the requestor.
I think we teach others how to treat us; if I want a supportive
session then I try to comment constructively. If I'm searching for
an adrenaline rush and excitement, then I'll kick over the table,
belch loudly a few times, wait make sure everyone was fidgeting
nervously with their instruments, and use a stage whisper to
mutter about the singer (in third person
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by mike henry
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
Fun thread, great topic!
I think in the land of oversized fragile egos (ie most sessions) I think you should remember to distinguish between two situations:
1) Somebody asks you what you think of their performance
2) Somebody does not ask you what you think
In the first case, you have the opprotunity to be critical without nearly as much danger of greatly offending them.
In the second case, you will absolutely destroy them by offering critical information - unless they have no ego in which case you should thank your stars (I'd take a bad player without an ego over a good one wth an ego any day).
The trick, and there have been several suggestions that will trigger this, is to get them to ask you what you think.
Many sessions I've been a part of use very casual rudeness to convey a point. Get up and get a pint when they start singing. They can't actually be upset about it, but it might get them to ask you about it (which is our goal here).
Good luck!
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by glenn
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
Thanks for all the suggestions. I will ponder and see if one or more of the above would be useful.
I waver between the 'grin and bear it' and 'say something tactful' but I'm too often clumsy at the nice approach. I also am a tad bit rude, to be honest. I can't listen to it...I just can't. Our session is in a loud enough bar that I'm not the only one talking (and I was quite a distance too), but I know its rude and I should behave better.
I also have to say that unless its a new person singing, or someone (gasp!) learns and sings something new, I have zero tolerance. I have spent three years of weekly renditions of the same songs from the same people, (except this one....who does something different nearly every time....but tunelessly, artlessly, and painfully) and I know that my intolerance is legendary.
The corker was when I was doing a really nice rendition of a slow air with a fiddler, and our self-appointed master of ceremonies decided to grab a mike and sing with his forced warble (he thinks it makes him sound authenic).
Okay, Tyg...enough. Its not MY session, and I'm sure there are enough people out there who can point a finger at me for one thing or another. Many thanks for the suggestions again. I think I'll make a recording of the next session and see what this person thinks of it.
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by Tyghress
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
Okay, for Ghod's sake's Tyghress, I'll stop singing at the session.
Although I only started because you complained so much about my playing.
-- Scott
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by srt19170
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
Tyghress:
You have to sacrifice a lot of time and effort to be any good at music. The trade offs are worth it, IMO, so I don’t understand fence-sitting attitudes among inexperienced players who own good instruments, never practice at home, and yet feel confident enough to practice in public.
To them I would say "practice it at home or sell your axe and take up some other hobby where it’s OK to be a complete doofus, like golf."
Otherwise, get a teacher for feedback and don’t inflict yourself on a pub session unless you are able to get through a few dozen tunes in reasonably good shape. Yeah it’s hard, yeah it’s lonely at times, yeah you tend to drink more and smile less, but there are moments when you overcome obstacles of technique, repertoire, timing and style that are better than any drug-induced high.
Where I live (Chicago), balladeer types and folkies go to open mike nights and leave Irish sessions alone. Well, most of them, anyway; I stay away from the one or two sessions where the aforementioned folkie element makes its presence felt. I don’t need the aggravation. And both factions are happier where they can pursue their respective art forms uninterrupted. I won’t take my pipes to an open mike or a song circle because it’s an inappropriate venue IMO.
It’s hard to be compassionate to someone who believes their singing or playing is fine when they plainly suck like a 9mm chest wound, and won’t take a hint from the pained expressions of those around them. I’m not talking about STYLE, I’m talking about basic issues of technique –being able to play or sing mostly in tune and keep steady time.
It’s even harder when you’ve been around that sort of thing for years. So if I seem a bit brusque and impatient, it’s because I’m out of patience and good will where this is concerned. I’m putting a sizeable portion of my waking life into getting better at ITM and I’m just out of compassion for people who aren’t trying that hard, yet think they can just show up anywhere anytime and expect to be accommodated. To quote a Clare box player I know: “F--- dat”. Even Irish hospitality has its limits.
Sometimes if you want to be able to really enjoy a pure drop session you have to be emotionally prepared for others to think of you as a complete SOB. I’m not talking about being rude and dismissive to newcomers and beginners. I’m talking about keeping your session on track in terms of repertoire and having some standards as far as some basic issues of technique are concerned – tuning and timing being the most important. Tempo is negotiable to a point, i.e., it’s a POLKA, not a funeral dirge! Lift is way more important.
The problem seems chronic. If you really want to remain friends with this person, than a diplomatic but firm middle path is probably the best initial approach but remember you're trying to make your session more enjoyable.
Don’t let people who don’t have a sincere passion for ITM or improving as musicians or singers steal your good times and your music.
Peace, or failing that, an Overton low whistle judiciously and vigorously applied to the offending party's head should do the job.
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by Hanley
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
A related problem is the player who plays one instrument badly (the one usually brought to the session), but also plays a couple of other instruments very well indeed. Said player also knows all the tunes and frequently leads off, on the badly-played instrument.
Because the player is also a very nice, and knowledgeable, person, we now consider the problem to be insoluble within a social context.
Trevor
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by Trevor Jennings
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
Grab a mic? Grab a *mic*? See, now, right there I'm already feeling less sympathetic to the guy. *grin*
If it's of any help, I'm pretty bluntly spoken myself, Tyghress. (And keep in mind that he of the eight appendages up above there lives in Chicago, and the standard is way higher there than here in the middle of nowhere, and there's less of a need to get along with everybody even if you don't think much of their playing.) I can honestly say that I out and out offend enough people with aforementioned plain speaking while never meaning to, so I tend to err on the side of trying to be nicer than nice, because with me that tends to equal out to normal for most other people.
While, yes, I tend to start at "treat them nicely and as I'd rather someone treated me" and start by gentle hints ("funny, everytime I open my mouth to sing, people get up to go to the bar"), there does come a point where you simply have to say something.
Hopefully Will's clever listen-and-weep strategy will come to something. Keep us posted, I'll be curious to see if it works.
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by Zina Lee
P.S.
Cthuill, seems like a terrible thing to do to an Overton...
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
nah, just remember to wash off the blood and hair and dip the whistle in bleach afterward. germophobes can autoclave if they want, but that seems excessive IMO.
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by Hanley
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
But what if it dents? The curtains won't slide nearly so well at that point...
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
Trevor, doesn't the player in your case realize s'he's not ready to play out on the 'flamoozle horn' yet? I mean, if s/he has personal standards enough to be decent on other instruments, how can s/he not hear the difference on this one? Sure it's tempting to want to play your new-found passion for your friends, but not if you can do it competently.
I've taken my whistles and even the flute to a couple of sessions, but I only haul them out on tunes I know I can play at tempo, in time, and in tune. And I've done it only a handful of times over the course of a year. That hasn't stopped one or two people from barking at me--in mid tune--to "quit pretending like you can play that thing," so maybe I've broken my own rule here. *sheepish grin* (Other session mates have been more encouraging, so I'm not sure where the perception problem actually lies in my case.)
But if I brought my banjo, which I've played for all of 3 months, to the session and tried to play along on every set, I think I'd hear the truth in it if someone quietly suggested that I keep practicing and in the meanwhile get the fiddle back out for the session.
# Posted on February 20th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
tyghress,
I don't want to suggest that you compromise yourself or do anthing illegal, impractical, or repugnant, but perhaps someone could get themself and your singer very drunk, take them to bed, and end the whole thing with "That was great! Now, if you could only sing like that!"
# Posted on February 21st 2004 by BarryM
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
Ahhh, this was a "I Love Lucy" episode. Every time they open their mouth to sing everybody joins in and sings it too.
# Posted on February 21st 2004 by Ran
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
Simply suggest that he/she audition for American Idol. That one British guy on that show will set 'em straight. And you won't have to be the one to say anything.
# Posted on February 22nd 2004 by LCorinth
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
Being primarily a singer myself - I tend to wait until I'm asked to sing if I'm sitting in on a tune session. Most folks I play with know I sing and I figure if they want to hear it - or extend some acknowledgement to me, then they'll ask. You could suggest to the offender that this is a reasonable protocol to follow ina tune session. Sometimes, when we've had serial offenders in one area or another, we've resorted to compiling a 'session etiquette' list on occasions, to try and get the message across - even getting the Pub to frame a suitably decorated copy and mount it on the wall in the session room.
Another ploy is to play 'tag conversation' - and take turns at engaging the offender in chat, preferably just as they are about to draw the starting breath - gives someone a chance to slip another tune in there! I do agree with Zina though - open rudeness just gives the session a bad name and deepens the divide.
Ideally, I'd love to see a session where people dance to the tunes, give respect to the songs, LISTEN to slow airs (after all, most of those are songs too...) and generally support one another's art forms. After all, IMHO, the culture depends on all its elements for its strength - music, dance, song and language.
Judy
# Posted on February 22nd 2004 by triantan
Re: What to do? Singer truly awful
I can sing but don't sing in the pub because of that.
I have recently solved a similar problem of someone wanting to take over with songs after 10.30 pm by making it a "No open book" session to stop people trying brand new songs they havn't learned on us. The second plan of attack was to ask the offender to sing as soon as they arrived and sat down. I also threatened to go to their song session and play all night.
It worked as they didn't have the guts to sing when sober and didn't have the brains to learn songs by heart.
I am fair though, and do have an un-announced song around the room session on an infrequent basis just to see who can and who can't sing - only one song each though and always at the start of the evening.
This emphasises to the bad singers that most of the good musicians can sing but quite rightly, choose not to sing in a tune session and also that many of the audience who don't play, can also provide a song at the drop of a hat even when sober.
# Posted on February 22nd 2004 by geoffwright