I'm seriously considering to buy a Dixon's Low D - Duo but I'd like to hear some opinions first.
Will, did you get yours yet? What's it like?
I'm fascinated with the idea of having a flute and a low D whistle in the same instrument but I'm a little sceptic about this.
So, anyone has tried it ?? What's your opinion?.
Please take into consideration that I'm still struggling with the low D whistle and I have no flute, so I'm an absolute begginer in the flute territory. I'd like to know if it is a good instrument for beginers or one should have some advanced skills to play it.
I've heard the whistle is good & the flute is poor.
If you just want to try your hand at the flute but don't want to commit big $$ try the PVC flute recipe. For $1.00 worth of PVC & an hour of measuring/drilling you'll have a cheap non-conical non-tunable flute. A flute playing friend of mine was impressed at it's response & playability. It's enough to wet your feet - If you get more serious, than you can buy real flute.
Toni, my Dixon low D came yesterday, but there were some problems. The flute head is on back order (I'm told it will arrive in a week), and the whistle head has some imperfections that affected the tone and volume. The fipple plug extends unevenly into the windway channel, and the blade (that the air goes over to produce the sound ) is rough and uneven. I was disappointed in how breathy this made the whistle, and how much more air mine needed than a friend's Dixon low D.
The good news is that the Whistle Shop is sending me a new whistle head with the missing flute head. I'll return the defective head when those arrive. I have high hopes that this will solve most of the problems.
In other respects, the instrument seems decent. The intonation is good, and it's easy to tune within about a half tone of D. The tone is surprisingly flutey and rich in overtones, and improves as you go up the scale, getting a bit breathy again up around the second octave A and B. I'm hoping that the new fipple will help these high notes and the low D and E notes, both in tone and volume. This isn't a loud low D by any stretch, but again, the new fipple may help.
The only other thing that jumps out at me is the reach for the righthand ring finger. From center to center, it's almost 4 cm from the righthand middle finger hole (E) to the ring finger hole (D), a bit uncomfortable for my medium-sized hands.
Overall, I'm happy with it, but eager to try the new whistle head and the flute head. For $80, it will at the very least make a good take-anywhere practice whistle and flute. (I also have a Seery polymer flute on order).
If you can wait a week, I'll let you know what happens when the new heads arrive.
Will
P.S. I'm a beginner on whistle and flute myself, though I find that the concepts of rolls and timing transfer easily from fiddle. I notice that breathing on a low whistle is much more like breathing on a flute--more frequent gulps for air, pushing more air into the whistle, and it helps to cut the first note after a breath--comapred to a high D whistle. Otherwise, it was pretty easy to play tunes on right away.
In fact I can wait for a while. I'm travelling to Ireland in two weeks time and I'm planning to visit a shop (Shanna Quay, in Adare. Co Limerick - which web site is already linked under the Musical Instruments section-). They have Desi Seery's whistles and flutes on stock, as well as Toni Dixon whistles, and I'm really looking forward to try them all.
I'm reluctant to have a Seery's flute because I'm a novice flute player and I find it a bit expensive to my limited skills.
I had a go on a Dixon low D whistle last year and I was quite impressed. I subsequently tried a couple of Dixon high D's in a shop and like Toni, I found that the fipples seemed poorly made, with an irregular edge, and the tone was rather weak and breathy.
Toni, my Dixon flute head finally arrived, along with a second whistle head, and I can't say I'm impressed. The second whistle head only works well in the second octave and basically not at all on the lower octave D and E notes. Even on higher notes it produces a reedy buzz of too many overtones, like humming through wax paper over a comb. So I'll stick with the original whistle head.
I also noticed that the two whistle heads were quite different from one another--one is about 1.5 cm longer than the other, and with a much narrower windway. The blade on this one is far cleaner--straighter and smoother--than the original fipple. I mention all this simply to illustrate the variability in workmanship, suggesting (to me at least) a lack of careful quality control.
On to the flute head. I can't get any sound out of it! This is most likely just me--struggling to find an embouchure, not knowing exactly where to blow, etc. But it's definitely not easy. If my Seery flute ever shows up, I'll let you know if it's any easier to blow a tone on.
I do like the Dixon as a low D whistle--nice flutely sound--but the amount of variation from one to the next tells me it's smart to play them in person before buying one.
I'll try them if I a have a chance.
These thing about the different whistle heads shocks me. I've read many good comments about this instrument in the chiffandfipple forum and no one experienced this kind of problems.
Is it possible that the shop made a mistake ?? They could have send you a head from a different whistle, or something like that. I simply can't believe that someone whose way of living is making whistles could be so careless.
Anyway, I'm heading to Ireland on friday. I'll let you know the result of my tests when I come back.
I wonder, Will, if the variation is because of changes between batches of whistles, due to experimentation. I find the idea of the flute/whistle duo very atractive and also scary. Something tells me that it should work, since the scale is the same, something else tells me it would never work. I'd love to hear more from other people who have tried. Part of what i don't understand is, if this works, why aren't more makers doing it?
A friend here who also has a Dixon low duo tried my two whistle heads and agreed that the newer one was almost impossible to play on the low end of the scale. It also sounds reedier in the mid-range than the head that orginally came with the whistle.
I agree, Glauber, that some of the variation may be due to trying to improve the product, and maybe it's too much to expect any given Dixon low D whistle head to work on any given Dixon low D body (despite that they are interchangeable). I'll be saitsfied with the head that originally came with it and ship the newer head back to the shop.
As for the flute head, I haven't given up, but I may need an oxygen tank and a cot to lie down on....but I understand that lightheadedness is common among flute players
Will
Will,
that's why people play flute; it's cheaper than drugs (but these days, with the way flute prices are, i'm not so sure). The low G (left fingers down, right fingers up) shouldn't be too hard to sound. If you can't get a sound at all, there could be something wrong with the flute (take it to your local flutist to see).
Also, this post just came across the woodenflute list serve:
Tris wrote:
"I've got all of them. The Dixon is not, IMO, at a level with the M&E and
the Seery, but it's a great starter flute for someone with no prior
experience on the flute. Its holes are smaller than either of the other
flutes, and its embouchure demands are very modest. It was my
training-wheels flute, and I was very glad to have it."
Mind you, I think Tris is talking about the $215 (US) actual flute Dixon makes, not the low D duo. Other folks on the woodenflute list also highly recommend Olwell bamboo flutes as starter flutes. I suppose a search for Olwell would find his site. I don't know what the bamboo's cost or the waiting time (if any).
Thanks for the tips Glauber. With the flute head I can now get a tone out of the lower octave B, A, and G, but it's very weak and breezy (or is that wheezy?), not to mention sporadic--after 5 minutes of trying every imaginable combination of lip shape, air pressure, placement on the flute, etc., I can usually produce a single note. Then, if I'm careful not to move a micrometer, I can sometimes get another. Watching in the mirror helps (other than fighting back the grinning from how idiotic I look trying to kiss this two-foot long shank of black plumbing). These low end flutes may be cheaper, but I suspect drugs are quicker....
I know this discussion is mostly about the Dixon Duo, but I noticed a lot of people talking about getting a M&E or a Seery because they are cheap. At $300+ they are sort of cheap as flutes go, I'd rather go with a flute made of this stuff called wood. It's great stuff - it grows on trees, comes in lots of colors, strengths & properties. I know it's a crazy idea but call me ecentric, at Lark in the Morning they sell several low end flutes that are made of this funny substance called "wood" http://www.larkinam.com/MenComNet/Business/Retail/Larknet/whistleirflute . Their is also a guy in CT named Ralph Sweet who snot bags like to rake over the coals because his flutes don't cost 5 times as much as they do. But Ralph Sweet makes good cheap flutes, made of this revolutionary "wood" for less than the cost of those rubber flutes.
Here's a good site for rubber flutes http://www.mcmaster.com
No joke this is where they get their stuff.
That's how I was thinking, Brad, until I heard a Seery polymer in person.
I went with a Seery polymer flute because they sound great--identical to a wood flute with none of the headaches of cracking and splitting and joint adjustments and oiling and waxing of a wood flute. Plus, there are lots of BAD cheap wooden flutes out there, whereas the M&Es and Seerys both come highly recommended by good players as having excellent tone, intonation, responsiveness, etc. I sweat, turn your back and have a decent fluter player blow some wooden flutes and a Seery and you won't be able to tell them apart. To get as good a sounding wood flute, I would've had to cough up a lot more money or go with a Ralph Sweet. And I heard from too many people who weren't as impressed with the Sweets as with the Seerys. Maybe if I could've tried a Sweet firsthand, and found one I liked, I would've gone that way, but I'm about 2,500 miles west.
Bottom line: trad flutes have been made out of wood, metal, plastic, glass, even concrete. The polymer flutes are lathed from solid stock, just like wood (the block even costs about the same or even slightly more than wood). They even feel and look like wood. Though they're not intended to be the absolute "best" flute on the market, they've won converts, even among top players (Tom Doorley of Danu plays a Seery as his main flute). Besides, as Terry McGee (A-tier wooden flute maker in Australia) says, is the wood the flute, or the hole in the wood? Probably more the hole than the material around it, and for my money I'd rather own a humidity and waterproof, nearly indestructable hole bored by Desi Seery.
I have no problem knowing that many people prefer wood. But I have lots of good reasons of my own for wanting polymer.
Thanks for leaving the soapbox open, Brad.
BTW, Elderly Instruments carries a $135 molded plastic violin. Maybe we should give that a whirl....
I love my M&E flute. It's loud and expressive, and i don't have to worry about taking it out when it's cold. On the other hand, i have a couple of wood flutes that i hate. Right now i wouldn't buy any flute without checking with the folks in the "Woodenflute" mailing list first.
Not only you should always ask in woodenflute, but also email or call the maker, try to get a feel for his worksmanship. Make sure that you have a "grace period" of at least 2 weeks where the maker would take the flute back and refund your money minus shipping costs. (Actually i once did all this, bought a bum flute (not saying from who in the list, email me if you're curious) and couldn't get myself to return it -- don't be like me.)
Delrin (acetal) goes for about $7 a foot for a solid 1" round block, grenadilla goes for about 20 to 30 times that. So the supplies aren't in the same price bracket. That's why I don't think they are worth more than $100 at the most, I'm not saying that they're bad instruments I'm just saying that they are astronomically priced for what they are made of. If wooden flutes had that kind of mark up you wouldn't be able to touch one for less than $2000.
I wanted a practice plastic flute - so I made one. When I get more serious I'll probably get a non keyed Sweet ($250) then go for a Healy when (& if) I get the skill & money together.
M.B., the cost of a flute has much more to do with the work than with the material. A top-notch wood flute will cost more than $2K, because it takes a long time to make (the wood needs time to stabilize, among other things).
M&E flutes are made of PVC, not Delrin (i'm not 100% sure, but i don't think it's the same thing) (not that it matters much).
Brad, the cost comparisons I gave for Delrin and wood were based on info from a flute maker who uses both. All he said was that he paid basically the same price for a block of grenadilla and for Delrin. Maybe he has an expensive source for the plastic.
I plan to make a schedule 80 pvc flute myself, just for kicks and grins. How's the intonation on yours? I hear it's a little tricky getting the tone holes drilled cleanly....
No it doesn't really matter too much, but I think they are Delrin , for the fact that machining PVC is like trying to machine a stick of warm butter - PVC doesn't have the right properties for being machined it's too soft & too pliable. PVC is even cheaper than Delrin - that doesn't really matter either.
On the Pro-Plastic side - I do have a couple of ethical problems with blackwood and other exotics since many are becoming endangered (not so much by instrument demand, but by slash & burn rainforest clearing) but there are a whole bunch of non-endangered woods out there that are suitable (but not yet accepted by all) into the flute making world. The "Ironwoods", as well as several other hardwoods are suitable. I do also know that the maintenance is zero on a plastic flute & they are less prone to all sorts of other maladies.
I feel bad that Ralph Sweet get raked through the mud as much as he does. I think that because he charges a fair price for his instruments they are deemed as cheap in quality just because he doesn't charge an arm & a leg for them. They aren't the best but they are good enough. The Seery's & M&E's are great too just letting people know that there are other entry level instruments beside those two.
I'm not a chemist, but i read somewhere that delrin is a brittle material. The M&E flute is not brittle (though it's heavy). Mike Cronnolly in his site says that the flutes are made of the same material as home plumbing. (Maybe pipes in Irish houses are made of delrin?). I'm gonna write him and ask what he uses.
Ahem:
Hello there. I've been listening quietly to this laudable site for almost a year now. I think I can offer something now.
One: I have the Dixon Duo Low D. I am utterly happy with the whistle side. Probably because I can actually play a whistle. I can make the flute play notes. It did take a lot of oxygen, waking up on the floor with stars in my vision, and lip blisters. It's easier now. Funny thing though, while waiting for the Dixon to arrive in the mail, I made a couple of PVC flutes, a surprisingly easy thing to do. For what it's worth, I can get the embouchure on the PVC homebuilts than I can on the Dixon, but the Dixon is in better tune.
Two: I fell for the Elderly Music plastic fiddle as sort of a joke. A friend happened to be starting violin lessons, just because his 10 y.o. son was into it, and he showed me how to play "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star." I was through a beginner song book in the next month, my wife gave me a violin lesson gift certificate for Christmas, and it's sorta snowballed from there. I bought a proper violin, but I must give credit to that awful sounding, but evenly tuned and definitely playable vinyl violin. If you're looking for something to take on a canoe trip, it's just the thing.
Here's what Michael said when i asked him about PVC x Delrin:
Dear Glauber,
Thanks for your e-mail, good to know you guys are talking about me.
It is PVC but specily made for me as there is no toxic stuff left in
it. If you play a flute with toxie stuff in you will get a taste in your mouth
and your mouth will be hot, as I have fixed some of these flutes.
I am making a Ruddell & Rose copy flute now, it will be on my website
one of these days.
I have designed a whistle in D very good and very loud, it has a 16mm
barrel, I also made the small B flat flute now, it is lovely to play.
PVC makes the best flute, I tryed Delrin.
BC Rusty, thanks for your post and welcome to the land of the de-lurked. Thanks especially for your comments on how challenging the Dixon embouchure can be. I'm just getting started with my flute head and it's a bear.
So how exactly did the vinyl violin sound? Muffled? Shrill? Hollow?
I looked for the "Elderly" web site to check on the plastic violin, and found this interesting "travel violin". http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/STIX.htm
Check it out, it looks so awful that it's cool!
Sounds like M&E does have custom PVC blocks made for them - probably black food grade blanks. I tried to bore out PVC with a masonary bit and it wasn't pretty, I guess M&E gets a stronger PVC that can be machined. For home PVC flute builders - don't get too worrid about PVC being toxic, you can easily avoid this buy getting "food grade" PVC. No toxins.
I'd think you'd have to use drills made for metal, and use a slow speed in the machine to avoid meltdowns.
BTW, i wouldn't worry too much about the toxicity either. I doubt anything that can be (legally) used in home plumbing can be toxic to the point that it will harm you by just touching it with your lips. Just be careful not to breath the stuff in (use a mask) when you're drilling.
Definitely not muffled. Shrill & hollow, with a peculiar metalic edge to it. Relative to each other, all the strings have strong clear notes, unlike my proper violin, which seems to die on most fingered notes on the D string. (Is this a weak bass bar problem ?)
Hi guys, I'm back from Ireland with my brand new Low D Dixon Duo under my arm (actually, I'm not sure if this expression is correct, I just translated it from Spanish).
Will, here's my first impression:
The sound of the whistle is very good, very smooth. It's a very easy instrument to play, specially if you have small hands. The behaviour in the higher octave is excellent (I didn't experienced the breathy sound on the A and B notes), altough I agree the E and D notes of the lower octave sound a bit weak. But, isn't it like that in many Low whistles?.
I have a Kerry low D and I had to struggle to get a proper sound out of it for ages(and I still do). As soon as I tried the Dixon I was able to play low and fast tunes with little effort. So, my review for the whistle (considering I'm sort of a beginer) is: very good.
As for the flute head: Again, as soon as I tried I was able to get a sound (a decent sound) out of it. Not much air was needed, and I could played several notes (actually half a tune) "easily", even though my flute playing skills are dreadful. Last night I brougth the whole thing to my local session and asked a couple of session mates (flute players) to have a go. First thing they said is 'It's very light' (certainly it is) and "It's very easy to play", and they got a really nice sound out of it.
I was really happy to hear that, as I thought I got a really good value for money (less than 97 euro, about 85$) for two instruments in one.
So, as I was looking for a Low whistle and wanted to start with the flute sooner or later , I think is an excelent instrument for beginers like me, although is probably not good enough for experienced players.
In the same shop (Shanna Quay, in Adare, Co. Limerick) I tried both Seery's high D whistle and flute. The sound of the whistle is nice, a bit too loud for my taste, and it requires a lot of air for the higher notes. The flute is simply out of my reach, in every sense. What a beautiful instrument !
They have too a nice bunch of unusual high and low whistles (I mean, not the standard generations, susatos and others, which are on stock as well), records (on CD and tape format) and books. Glauber, I think I saw one of the books you were recommending a few days ago. I just can't remember the name if it.
Toni, congrats on finding a good Dixon Low D/Flute combo. It's encouraging to me as well that your flute friends were able to get a decent tone out of the flute--I'm hoping someday to be able to do that myself.
I agree with all your points on the Dixon as a Low D whistle, except that the righthand ring finger hole is still a big stretch--perhaps my hands are even smaller than yours, or just not as flexible. I do really enjoy the flute-like sound I get out of the Dixon as a low whistle.
In fact, after a whistle friend of mine suggested moving the fipple out of my mouth more--that is, using the least amount of lip possible to cover the fipple--I found that I could blow harder and get great tone on the low E and D notes--so my technique was to blame as much as anything else.
My Seery polymer keyless flute arrived yesterday, and it is instantly easier for me to get notes out of. The tone holes are easier to reach (that right ring finger doesn't have to stretch so far), and of course the tone quality is richer than the Dixon. I'm struggling to blow the lower notes, but everyone tells me that will come with time (and the lips of Penelope Cruz and the lungs of Miguel Indurain).
Yes, it's a beautiful instrument, feels great in the hands, and sounds terrific. Well made, with a smooth tuning slide, tight joints, and a nice matte finish. Well worth the price, and very affordable compared to wooden flutes of the same sound quality.
Gosh ! Penelope Cruz ! I just can't stand her. I'm sick of seeing her image in every spanish paper or magazine. And it's even worse if Tom is there as well. What a nightmare.
Seriously. I also think my technique is very improvable, specially with the flute. I manage to get some notes until I need to breath, then the magic's just gone!. I'm sure I need some tips from experienced players.
If I can improve my playing in the following year, I'll probably get a Seery myself.
A tip for your streched finger. When I started playing the Low D for the first time I also experienced this. So I started playing a Low G whistle instead. The holes are a bit closer and once yor fingers are used to it, it's much easier to jump to the Low D. try it.
Too beat this old thread once again I thought I'd give my $.02 on the subject after playing one personally. The whistle was nice & loud good for a low whistle, not much chiff - more flutey like Will said. The flute head was very easy to play & surprisingly loud. It was reasonably well in tune on both counts. The only downside from my point of view was the wall thickness, maybe an 1/8 of an in (or about 2 cm) I'm used to thicker walled flutes. This doesn't really matter much but I personally like the tone of a thicker walled flute. Also the light weight of it made it feel "cheesey" & like a toy. But all things accounted for I thought it was a very good beginer flute for someone who doesn't feel like commiting a lot of money to a possible passing fancy. but not something I would expect an experienced player to use as a main instrument.
Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
I'm seriously considering to buy a Dixon's Low D - Duo but I'd like to hear some opinions first.
Will, did you get yours yet? What's it like?
I'm fascinated with the idea of having a flute and a low D whistle in the same instrument but I'm a little sceptic about this.
So, anyone has tried it ?? What's your opinion?.
Please take into consideration that I'm still struggling with the low D whistle and I have no flute, so I'm an absolute begginer in the flute territory. I'd like to know if it is a good instrument for beginers or one should have some advanced skills to play it.
Toni.
# Posted on January 15th 2002 by Toni Ribas
Save your $$
I've heard the whistle is good & the flute is poor.
If you just want to try your hand at the flute but don't want to commit big $$ try the PVC flute recipe. For $1.00 worth of PVC & an hour of measuring/drilling you'll have a cheap non-conical non-tunable flute. A flute playing friend of mine was impressed at it's response & playability. It's enough to wet your feet - If you get more serious, than you can buy real flute.
# Posted on January 15th 2002 by B Rad
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
Toni, my Dixon low D came yesterday, but there were some problems. The flute head is on back order (I'm told it will arrive in a week), and the whistle head has some imperfections that affected the tone and volume. The fipple plug extends unevenly into the windway channel, and the blade (that the air goes over to produce the sound ) is rough and uneven. I was disappointed in how breathy this made the whistle, and how much more air mine needed than a friend's Dixon low D.
The good news is that the Whistle Shop is sending me a new whistle head with the missing flute head. I'll return the defective head when those arrive. I have high hopes that this will solve most of the problems.
In other respects, the instrument seems decent. The intonation is good, and it's easy to tune within about a half tone of D. The tone is surprisingly flutey and rich in overtones, and improves as you go up the scale, getting a bit breathy again up around the second octave A and B. I'm hoping that the new fipple will help these high notes and the low D and E notes, both in tone and volume. This isn't a loud low D by any stretch, but again, the new fipple may help.
The only other thing that jumps out at me is the reach for the righthand ring finger. From center to center, it's almost 4 cm from the righthand middle finger hole (E) to the ring finger hole (D), a bit uncomfortable for my medium-sized hands.
Overall, I'm happy with it, but eager to try the new whistle head and the flute head. For $80, it will at the very least make a good take-anywhere practice whistle and flute. (I also have a Seery polymer flute on order).
If you can wait a week, I'll let you know what happens when the new heads arrive.
Will
# Posted on January 15th 2002 by Will Harmon
P.S. I'm a beginner on whistle and flute myself, though I find that the concepts of rolls and timing transfer easily from fiddle. I notice that breathing on a low whistle is much more like breathing on a flute--more frequent gulps for air, pushing more air into the whistle, and it helps to cut the first note after a breath--comapred to a high D whistle. Otherwise, it was pretty easy to play tunes on right away.
# Posted on January 15th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
Thanks Will.
In fact I can wait for a while. I'm travelling to Ireland in two weeks time and I'm planning to visit a shop (Shanna Quay, in Adare. Co Limerick - which web site is already linked under the Musical Instruments section-). They have Desi Seery's whistles and flutes on stock, as well as Toni Dixon whistles, and I'm really looking forward to try them all.
I'm reluctant to have a Seery's flute because I'm a novice flute player and I find it a bit expensive to my limited skills.
Let me know how the new fipple works anyway.
Toni
# Posted on January 15th 2002 by Toni Ribas
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
I had a go on a Dixon low D whistle last year and I was quite impressed. I subsequently tried a couple of Dixon high D's in a shop and like Toni, I found that the fipples seemed poorly made, with an irregular edge, and the tone was rather weak and breathy.
# Posted on January 18th 2002 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
Toni, my Dixon flute head finally arrived, along with a second whistle head, and I can't say I'm impressed. The second whistle head only works well in the second octave and basically not at all on the lower octave D and E notes. Even on higher notes it produces a reedy buzz of too many overtones, like humming through wax paper over a comb. So I'll stick with the original whistle head.
I also noticed that the two whistle heads were quite different from one another--one is about 1.5 cm longer than the other, and with a much narrower windway. The blade on this one is far cleaner--straighter and smoother--than the original fipple. I mention all this simply to illustrate the variability in workmanship, suggesting (to me at least) a lack of careful quality control.
On to the flute head. I can't get any sound out of it! This is most likely just me--struggling to find an embouchure, not knowing exactly where to blow, etc. But it's definitely not easy. If my Seery flute ever shows up, I'll let you know if it's any easier to blow a tone on.
I do like the Dixon as a low D whistle--nice flutely sound--but the amount of variation from one to the next tells me it's smart to play them in person before buying one.
Will
# Posted on January 22nd 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
Thanks Will.
I'll try them if I a have a chance.
These thing about the different whistle heads shocks me. I've read many good comments about this instrument in the chiffandfipple forum and no one experienced this kind of problems.
Is it possible that the shop made a mistake ?? They could have send you a head from a different whistle, or something like that. I simply can't believe that someone whose way of living is making whistles could be so careless.
Anyway, I'm heading to Ireland on friday. I'll let you know the result of my tests when I come back.
Toni.
# Posted on January 22nd 2002 by Toni Ribas
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
I wonder, Will, if the variation is because of changes between batches of whistles, due to experimentation. I find the idea of the flute/whistle duo very atractive and also scary. Something tells me that it should work, since the scale is the same, something else tells me it would never work. I'd love to hear more from other people who have tried. Part of what i don't understand is, if this works, why aren't more makers doing it?
# Posted on January 22nd 2002 by glauber
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
Good question glauber.
That's exactly what worries me about this 'duo'.
Is it really good? Or it's just a bluff?
I'll keep you posted.
Toni.
# Posted on January 22nd 2002 by Toni Ribas
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
A friend here who also has a Dixon low duo tried my two whistle heads and agreed that the newer one was almost impossible to play on the low end of the scale. It also sounds reedier in the mid-range than the head that orginally came with the whistle.
I agree, Glauber, that some of the variation may be due to trying to improve the product, and maybe it's too much to expect any given Dixon low D whistle head to work on any given Dixon low D body (despite that they are interchangeable). I'll be saitsfied with the head that originally came with it and ship the newer head back to the shop.
As for the flute head, I haven't given up, but I may need an oxygen tank and a cot to lie down on....but I understand that lightheadedness is common among flute players
Will
# Posted on January 23rd 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
Will,
that's why people play flute; it's cheaper than drugs (but these days, with the way flute prices are, i'm not so sure). The low G (left fingers down, right fingers up) shouldn't be too hard to sound. If you can't get a sound at all, there could be something wrong with the flute (take it to your local flutist to see).
# Posted on January 23rd 2002 by glauber
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
Also, this post just came across the woodenflute list serve:
Tris wrote:
"I've got all of them. The Dixon is not, IMO, at a level with the M&E and
the Seery, but it's a great starter flute for someone with no prior
experience on the flute. Its holes are smaller than either of the other
flutes, and its embouchure demands are very modest. It was my
training-wheels flute, and I was very glad to have it."
Mind you, I think Tris is talking about the $215 (US) actual flute Dixon makes, not the low D duo. Other folks on the woodenflute list also highly recommend Olwell bamboo flutes as starter flutes. I suppose a search for Olwell would find his site. I don't know what the bamboo's cost or the waiting time (if any).
Thanks for the tips Glauber. With the flute head I can now get a tone out of the lower octave B, A, and G, but it's very weak and breezy (or is that wheezy?), not to mention sporadic--after 5 minutes of trying every imaginable combination of lip shape, air pressure, placement on the flute, etc., I can usually produce a single note. Then, if I'm careful not to move a micrometer, I can sometimes get another. Watching in the mirror helps (other than fighting back the grinning from how idiotic I look trying to kiss this two-foot long shank of black plumbing). These low end flutes may be cheaper, but I suspect drugs are quicker....
# Posted on January 23rd 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
I know this discussion is mostly about the Dixon Duo, but I noticed a lot of people talking about getting a M&E or a Seery because they are cheap. At $300+ they are sort of cheap as flutes go, I'd rather go with a flute made of this stuff called wood. It's great stuff - it grows on trees, comes in lots of colors, strengths & properties. I know it's a crazy idea but call me ecentric, at Lark in the Morning they sell several low end flutes that are made of this funny substance called "wood" http://www.larkinam.com/MenComNet/Business/Retail/Larknet/whistleirflute . Their is also a guy in CT named Ralph Sweet who snot bags like to rake over the coals because his flutes don't cost 5 times as much as they do. But Ralph Sweet makes good cheap flutes, made of this revolutionary "wood" for less than the cost of those rubber flutes.
Here's a good site for rubber flutes http://www.mcmaster.com
No joke this is where they get their stuff.
# Posted on January 23rd 2002 by B Rad
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
That's how I was thinking, Brad, until I heard a Seery polymer in person.
I went with a Seery polymer flute because they sound great--identical to a wood flute with none of the headaches of cracking and splitting and joint adjustments and oiling and waxing of a wood flute. Plus, there are lots of BAD cheap wooden flutes out there, whereas the M&Es and Seerys both come highly recommended by good players as having excellent tone, intonation, responsiveness, etc. I sweat, turn your back and have a decent fluter player blow some wooden flutes and a Seery and you won't be able to tell them apart. To get as good a sounding wood flute, I would've had to cough up a lot more money or go with a Ralph Sweet. And I heard from too many people who weren't as impressed with the Sweets as with the Seerys. Maybe if I could've tried a Sweet firsthand, and found one I liked, I would've gone that way, but I'm about 2,500 miles west.
Bottom line: trad flutes have been made out of wood, metal, plastic, glass, even concrete. The polymer flutes are lathed from solid stock, just like wood (the block even costs about the same or even slightly more than wood). They even feel and look like wood. Though they're not intended to be the absolute "best" flute on the market, they've won converts, even among top players (Tom Doorley of Danu plays a Seery as his main flute). Besides, as Terry McGee (A-tier wooden flute maker in Australia) says, is the wood the flute, or the hole in the wood? Probably more the hole than the material around it, and for my money I'd rather own a humidity and waterproof, nearly indestructable hole bored by Desi Seery.
I have no problem knowing that many people prefer wood. But I have lots of good reasons of my own for wanting polymer.
Thanks for leaving the soapbox open, Brad.
BTW, Elderly Instruments carries a $135 molded plastic violin. Maybe we should give that a whirl....
# Posted on January 23rd 2002 by Will Harmon
M&E
I love my M&E flute. It's loud and expressive, and i don't have to worry about taking it out when it's cold. On the other hand, i have a couple of wood flutes that i hate. Right now i wouldn't buy any flute without checking with the folks in the "Woodenflute" mailing list first.
# Posted on January 23rd 2002 by glauber
Buying a flute
Not only you should always ask in woodenflute, but also email or call the maker, try to get a feel for his worksmanship. Make sure that you have a "grace period" of at least 2 weeks where the maker would take the flute back and refund your money minus shipping costs. (Actually i once did all this, bought a bum flute (not saying from who in the list, email me if you're curious) and couldn't get myself to return it -- don't be like me.)
# Posted on January 23rd 2002 by glauber
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
Delrin (acetal) goes for about $7 a foot for a solid 1" round block, grenadilla goes for about 20 to 30 times that. So the supplies aren't in the same price bracket. That's why I don't think they are worth more than $100 at the most, I'm not saying that they're bad instruments I'm just saying that they are astronomically priced for what they are made of. If wooden flutes had that kind of mark up you wouldn't be able to touch one for less than $2000.
I wanted a practice plastic flute - so I made one. When I get more serious I'll probably get a non keyed Sweet ($250) then go for a Healy when (& if) I get the skill & money together.
# Posted on January 24th 2002 by B Rad
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
M.B., the cost of a flute has much more to do with the work than with the material. A top-notch wood flute will cost more than $2K, because it takes a long time to make (the wood needs time to stabilize, among other things).
M&E flutes are made of PVC, not Delrin (i'm not 100% sure, but i don't think it's the same thing) (not that it matters much).
# Posted on January 24th 2002 by glauber
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
Brad, the cost comparisons I gave for Delrin and wood were based on info from a flute maker who uses both. All he said was that he paid basically the same price for a block of grenadilla and for Delrin. Maybe he has an expensive source for the plastic.
I plan to make a schedule 80 pvc flute myself, just for kicks and grins. How's the intonation on yours? I hear it's a little tricky getting the tone holes drilled cleanly....
# Posted on January 24th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
No it doesn't really matter too much, but I think they are Delrin , for the fact that machining PVC is like trying to machine a stick of warm butter - PVC doesn't have the right properties for being machined it's too soft & too pliable. PVC is even cheaper than Delrin - that doesn't really matter either.
On the Pro-Plastic side - I do have a couple of ethical problems with blackwood and other exotics since many are becoming endangered (not so much by instrument demand, but by slash & burn rainforest clearing) but there are a whole bunch of non-endangered woods out there that are suitable (but not yet accepted by all) into the flute making world. The "Ironwoods", as well as several other hardwoods are suitable. I do also know that the maintenance is zero on a plastic flute & they are less prone to all sorts of other maladies.
I feel bad that Ralph Sweet get raked through the mud as much as he does. I think that because he charges a fair price for his instruments they are deemed as cheap in quality just because he doesn't charge an arm & a leg for them. They aren't the best but they are good enough. The Seery's & M&E's are great too just letting people know that there are other entry level instruments beside those two.
# Posted on January 24th 2002 by B Rad
Delrin
Hello, Mad Brad,
). I'm gonna write him and ask what he uses.
I'm not a chemist, but i read somewhere that delrin is a brittle material. The M&E flute is not brittle (though it's heavy). Mike Cronnolly in his site says that the flutes are made of the same material as home plumbing. (Maybe pipes in Irish houses are made of delrin?
# Posted on January 24th 2002 by glauber
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
Ahem:
Hello there. I've been listening quietly to this laudable site for almost a year now. I think I can offer something now.
One: I have the Dixon Duo Low D. I am utterly happy with the whistle side. Probably because I can actually play a whistle. I can make the flute play notes. It did take a lot of oxygen, waking up on the floor with stars in my vision, and lip blisters. It's easier now. Funny thing though, while waiting for the Dixon to arrive in the mail, I made a couple of PVC flutes, a surprisingly easy thing to do. For what it's worth, I can get the embouchure on the PVC homebuilts than I can on the Dixon, but the Dixon is in better tune.
Two: I fell for the Elderly Music plastic fiddle as sort of a joke. A friend happened to be starting violin lessons, just because his 10 y.o. son was into it, and he showed me how to play "Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star." I was through a beginner song book in the next month, my wife gave me a violin lesson gift certificate for Christmas, and it's sorta snowballed from there. I bought a proper violin, but I must give credit to that awful sounding, but evenly tuned and definitely playable vinyl violin. If you're looking for something to take on a canoe trip, it's just the thing.
# Posted on January 24th 2002 by bc rusty
M&E Flutes, material
Here's what Michael said when i asked him about PVC x Delrin:
Dear Glauber,
Thanks for your e-mail, good to know you guys are talking about me.
It is PVC but specily made for me as there is no toxic stuff left in
it. If you play a flute with toxie stuff in you will get a taste in your mouth
and your mouth will be hot, as I have fixed some of these flutes.
I am making a Ruddell & Rose copy flute now, it will be on my website
one of these days.
I have designed a whistle in D very good and very loud, it has a 16mm
barrel, I also made the small B flat flute now, it is lovely to play.
PVC makes the best flute, I tryed Delrin.
Michael.
# Posted on January 25th 2002 by glauber
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
BC Rusty, thanks for your post and welcome to the land of the de-lurked. Thanks especially for your comments on how challenging the Dixon embouchure can be. I'm just getting started with my flute head and it's a bear.
So how exactly did the vinyl violin sound? Muffled? Shrill? Hollow?
Thanks,
Will
# Posted on January 25th 2002 by Will Harmon
Elderly
I looked for the "Elderly" web site to check on the plastic violin, and found this interesting "travel violin".
http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/STIX.htm
Check it out, it looks so awful that it's cool!
# Posted on January 25th 2002 by glauber
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
Sounds like M&E does have custom PVC blocks made for them - probably black food grade blanks. I tried to bore out PVC with a masonary bit and it wasn't pretty, I guess M&E gets a stronger PVC that can be machined. For home PVC flute builders - don't get too worrid about PVC being toxic, you can easily avoid this buy getting "food grade" PVC. No toxins.
# Posted on January 25th 2002 by B Rad
Food grade
Just don't eat it.
# Posted on January 25th 2002 by glauber
Drilling plastic
I'd think you'd have to use drills made for metal, and use a slow speed in the machine to avoid meltdowns.
BTW, i wouldn't worry too much about the toxicity either. I doubt anything that can be (legally) used in home plumbing can be toxic to the point that it will harm you by just touching it with your lips. Just be careful not to breath the stuff in (use a mask) when you're drilling.
# Posted on January 25th 2002 by glauber
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
Definitely not muffled. Shrill & hollow, with a peculiar metalic edge to it. Relative to each other, all the strings have strong clear notes, unlike my proper violin, which seems to die on most fingered notes on the D string. (Is this a weak bass bar problem ?)
# Posted on January 25th 2002 by bc rusty
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
Hi guys, I'm back from Ireland with my brand new Low D Dixon Duo under my arm (actually, I'm not sure if this expression is correct, I just translated it from Spanish).
Will, here's my first impression:
The sound of the whistle is very good, very smooth. It's a very easy instrument to play, specially if you have small hands. The behaviour in the higher octave is excellent (I didn't experienced the breathy sound on the A and B notes), altough I agree the E and D notes of the lower octave sound a bit weak. But, isn't it like that in many Low whistles?.
I have a Kerry low D and I had to struggle to get a proper sound out of it for ages(and I still do). As soon as I tried the Dixon I was able to play low and fast tunes with little effort. So, my review for the whistle (considering I'm sort of a beginer) is: very good.
As for the flute head: Again, as soon as I tried I was able to get a sound (a decent sound) out of it. Not much air was needed, and I could played several notes (actually half a tune) "easily", even though my flute playing skills are dreadful. Last night I brougth the whole thing to my local session and asked a couple of session mates (flute players) to have a go. First thing they said is 'It's very light' (certainly it is) and "It's very easy to play", and they got a really nice sound out of it.
I was really happy to hear that, as I thought I got a really good value for money (less than 97 euro, about 85$) for two instruments in one.
So, as I was looking for a Low whistle and wanted to start with the flute sooner or later , I think is an excelent instrument for beginers like me, although is probably not good enough for experienced players.
In the same shop (Shanna Quay, in Adare, Co. Limerick) I tried both Seery's high D whistle and flute. The sound of the whistle is nice, a bit too loud for my taste, and it requires a lot of air for the higher notes. The flute is simply out of my reach, in every sense. What a beautiful instrument !
They have too a nice bunch of unusual high and low whistles (I mean, not the standard generations, susatos and others, which are on stock as well), records (on CD and tape format) and books. Glauber, I think I saw one of the books you were recommending a few days ago. I just can't remember the name if it.
Toni
# Posted on February 4th 2002 by Toni Ribas
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
Toni, congrats on finding a good Dixon Low D/Flute combo. It's encouraging to me as well that your flute friends were able to get a decent tone out of the flute--I'm hoping someday to be able to do that myself.
I agree with all your points on the Dixon as a Low D whistle, except that the righthand ring finger hole is still a big stretch--perhaps my hands are even smaller than yours, or just not as flexible. I do really enjoy the flute-like sound I get out of the Dixon as a low whistle.
In fact, after a whistle friend of mine suggested moving the fipple out of my mouth more--that is, using the least amount of lip possible to cover the fipple--I found that I could blow harder and get great tone on the low E and D notes--so my technique was to blame as much as anything else.
My Seery polymer keyless flute arrived yesterday, and it is instantly easier for me to get notes out of. The tone holes are easier to reach (that right ring finger doesn't have to stretch so far), and of course the tone quality is richer than the Dixon. I'm struggling to blow the lower notes, but everyone tells me that will come with time (and the lips of Penelope Cruz and the lungs of Miguel Indurain).
Yes, it's a beautiful instrument, feels great in the hands, and sounds terrific. Well made, with a smooth tuning slide, tight joints, and a nice matte finish. Well worth the price, and very affordable compared to wooden flutes of the same sound quality.
Will
# Posted on February 5th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
Gosh ! Penelope Cruz ! I just can't stand her. I'm sick of seeing her image in every spanish paper or magazine. And it's even worse if Tom is there as well. What a nightmare.
Seriously. I also think my technique is very improvable, specially with the flute. I manage to get some notes until I need to breath, then the magic's just gone!. I'm sure I need some tips from experienced players.
If I can improve my playing in the following year, I'll probably get a Seery myself.
A tip for your streched finger. When I started playing the Low D for the first time I also experienced this. So I started playing a Low G whistle instead. The holes are a bit closer and once yor fingers are used to it, it's much easier to jump to the Low D. try it.
Toni
# Posted on February 5th 2002 by Toni Ribas
Re: Anyone has a Dixon Low D- Duo ??
Too beat this old thread once again I thought I'd give my $.02 on the subject after playing one personally. The whistle was nice & loud good for a low whistle, not much chiff - more flutey like Will said. The flute head was very easy to play & surprisingly loud. It was reasonably well in tune on both counts. The only downside from my point of view was the wall thickness, maybe an 1/8 of an in (or about 2 cm) I'm used to thicker walled flutes. This doesn't really matter much but I personally like the tone of a thicker walled flute. Also the light weight of it made it feel "cheesey" & like a toy. But all things accounted for I thought it was a very good beginer flute for someone who doesn't feel like commiting a lot of money to a possible passing fancy. but not something I would expect an experienced player to use as a main instrument.
~b
# Posted on March 29th 2002 by B Rad