I find music popular at feiseanna totally different from traditional music; I think it comes from a lack of emphasis on the music after all it is a dance competition. I saw one feis where about a hundred hard-shoe dancers were dancing to a handheld recorder in an echo-y gymnasium. Needless to say – the music was literally trampled under their feet. If the music is trampled it’s usually ok because it probably is sub-standard in the quality department.
For example - I have a Colin Dunne Video tape with the most embarrassing accordian player bumbling through the tunes, Colin Dunne could have gotten almost any musician to do this tape with him – but ended up with Helen Keller doing the tunes. Now little Suzy gets this tape & is wild about dancing, but has already is on the road to ignoring the quality of the music - or ignoring it because what she’s been exposed to is garbage. The tune choices can be just as shoddy – untraditional choices are way too common and if it’s a traditional tune, it’s usually one of those over played to the point of boredom tunes.
This of course is always the case every time, but it’s common enough that it’s been noticed by lots of people. I keep thinking of Zina & Josh Kane who know their arses from their armpits, but they are a minority in the sea of soccer moms pushing their kids into something that they know nothing about.
Ok now everyone can rip me into little bit sized pieces….
Actually, I pretty much agree, Brad. (Interesting new moniker, by the way. *grin*) Being a dancer certainly has nothing to do with knowing what you're talking about music-wise, just like being a musician doesn't mean you automatically know a single thing about stepdancing.
In fact, I've often been completely appalled by what some stepdancers (and in my own school!) include under the heading of "good music". I don't often like to talk down other musicians, but some of this stuff that's out there on synthesizers and stuff barely resembles what *I* know of to be good music. And I know dancers who love the stuff.
I have nothing but admiration for the great feis musicians -- going for hours upon end with the same tunes over and over and over...the fact that the really good musicians like Mike Shaffer can actually put anything out that actually resembles good traditional music is completely amazing. As a dancer, I love having a great musician with me -- they can make the difference between a medal or no place, honestly. But it's amazing the difference between dancing to something that's basically a fancy metronome, and music that's lifting you up into the air with lift and drive.
But I guess it kind of depends on what you mean by "popular" -- dancers are asked to danced to anything with the correct beat, so it's not really their fault. Over time, they get *used* to the music as they know it, and so their definition of "good" music is totally different from what a musician would have. I mean, think about how long it takes even a player to get some discernment going where the music is concerned! And that's with working at it.
There is a good fiddler named Larry Reynold's (no relation to Paddy)in Boston who's managed to keep a good repore (sp??? never good with those french words) with both the dancers & the session musicians. He's got a cast Iron Rhythm, and is familier with both bodies of tunes. I admire those players that can play set dances & hard shoe hornpipes colidly without speeding up or getting bored. I just wish that Feisanna relied more on us (local musicians) for music than over-produced stuff.
Hmm, the feissanna I see with my daughter usually use accordian players, and they're ok. Nuthin fancy, but they play the tune, at the appropriate speed. And now that I'm going to sessions, I recognize most of the tunes the feissana accordianists are playing. The difference is at the session, the tunes are usually about 5 times faster! What's that all about??!!@
I guess it's pretty simple - sessions are musicians - dances are for dancers. The show piece dance rhythms are played slow so that the dancer can fit in all the steps, especially true for the slides & treble hornpipes. But it's not always the case - I've been around ceilidh dancers who I couldn't play fast enough for. Session players tend to play the tune at it's most suited tempo in sessions because a session is all about the music.
One of the greater accordian players and feis musicians .. Pat King
I' ve heard him play and used to dance to his music.
A master on the accordian for dancers and Trad. Irish music.
Slainte
Ted
Having been to about 1345 feises in the last 4 years, I have come to admire most of the musicians that I hear. Occasionally, I'll encounter some pretty tacky players, but the good ones more than make up for the bad. Listening to the feis musicians playing hour after hour with rock solid tempos and rhythms keeps me from rushing the new pieces that I'm learning. After all, dance is inextricably linked to Irish music. I also enjoy the purity of Irish tunes played with fairly simple ornamentation, particularly when I get to hear a solo fiddle player accompanying the dancers. I know that I hear Irish music in an entirely different way when I experience it like that. I now find myself even enjoying accordian music (can I be treated for this condition??).
Seriously, Brad, you'd be surprised -- a bad musician can keep The Butterfly going (not that they would -- it's only the set dances and figures that have certain tunes required) for that long and have it be just as good music at the end as at the beginning, or pretty close.
Anyone who can play for 9 or 10 hours and keep the music lively and swingy and beautiful no matter how tired and bored they are has my admiration.
Brad: Regarding the "Sessions are for musicians ..." Obviously; but what I'm ... complaining about, I guess, is that at a feis a reel is typically played at about quarter = 240; a very reasonable tempo, to my mind, fairly quick, but not blazing. And no doubt some reels are better at a blazing tempo, and some are better slower. But at the session I attend, everybody plays EVERYTHING considerably faster! Ok, maybe this is sour grapes, to a point, because I am a beginner and the tunes I can pull off at quarter = 280 are durn few at this point, but it does seem that the speed thing is being overdone a bit. Maybe it's just me. And I'm also not sure what I think of the style: there's a couple of flutists and whistlers who throw in a few ornaments here and there, even at top speed, but the fiddlers (who know tons of tunes and who are playing in working bands so they must be good, right?) just saw through the tunes at top speed with no ornamentation or style that I can hear. Is that typical of some "official" Irtrad fiddle styles?
I still attend this session regularly: I like the atmosphere, it's fun, it's challenging to keep up, but I gotta tell you - I like a lot of the stuff the way I do it by myself better!
240BPM?!! You must mean 120BPM, which is about full tilt for most sessions I've been to. I bet the fiddlers are putting in ornaments your just not hearing it, I've honestly never heard a fiddler who didn't at least put in something - I tried to play tunes with out any ornaments & found it next a really big challenge. It would seem good sense that a fiddler in a working band would mean they are good, but I've noticed it's not always the case. I can't say bip about the fiddlers at your local session cause I've never been there & don't know them, but I'm pretty sure at least one of them is putting in an occasional grace note.
Remember what I said about the guitar in another conversation, If you can play even 10 reels at full speed on guitar your doing great. But the guitar is incredibly unweildy for playing Irish Tunes which require a fast nimble instrument. I know that it's the workhorse of our time but you'll probably be a lot happier (playing at your local session) with a tenor banjo.
I have been to sessions that have gotten carried away with speed & I agree it's the pits - the music gets sacrificed for sheer speed. I'm a hell of a lot happier playing an off the beaten path tune at a slow swingy pace than I am playing a learner tune as fast as I(we) can.
I know the "Sour Grapes" feeling that you have, there's another local session around my way that's run by a great fiddler named Chris McGrath. He's a great solid fiddler, my problem with his session isn't speed, rather it's the tunes. I probably know how to play around 500 tunes & I know the melodies to about 1500. But I can listen to him play for two hours before I hear one I've even heard before. Chris does have the edge in that he is an ethnomusicologist for Brown University & I'm a construction worker. While I'm running around in the mud he's doing whatever ethnomusicologists do. Which has a hell of a lot more to do with tunes than flopping around in the mud. He's up on all fresh new stuff were I'm more interested in the Co. Sligo rep. In short I'm useless at his sessions and yep, it's frustrating - so I go to the sessions offer me what I want. If your session is indeed full of folks who put speed before quality, start another, it doesn't have to even be in a pub. just get some folks on the same brainwave as you & have them over on Saturday afternoon.
Joe, the next time you go to that session, look around for a big metal rod sticking out of the floor at an odd angle. Spit on your palms and give it a good yank--really put your back into it. That lever is the emergency handbrake on what sounds like a runaway train. Chances are, you won't find it, but someone will notice you peering under all the chairs and behind instrument cases, and when they ask what you're looking for, you can explain. Maybe they'll actually listen.
This speed/tempo issue comes around and around. Beginners often complain about "fast" tempos that are in fact comfortable for experienced players, and some experienced players complain when the pace slows too far. But your description of the fiddlers was all to familiar--a wall of noise, no articulation, no time to embellish or even enjoy the notes as they rocket by.
Some people say it's simple--the really good players know what tempo to play at, and everyone else just has to keep up or get out of the way. I think it's far more complicated because so many factors contribute to what tempo works on a given tune on a given day for a given set of musicians. Some tunes sound good really slow, and some can make the hair on your neck stand up when played lightning fast (in the right hands). Whether any particular tempo is going to work *that night* depends on the players' abilities, their moods, the temperature of the room, the ratio of Guinness in the glass to Guinness in the gullet, etc. Good players know this and adjust accordingly.
My own rules of thumb are:
(1) If you're going too fast to play ornaments and variations cleanly, you're going too fast. (It doesn't matter that you've played it this fast cleanly before--it's not working now.)
(2) When someone in the circle starts a tune, people should not try to change the tempo when they join in. If it's too fast for you, sit it out (or try to follow along softly).
(3) When a dancer asks for a tune, ask what tempo s/he wants. Have them do a few steps to set the beat--tap your foot along and then start the music at that tempo. (We sometimes have dancers at our sessions--in part because their classes are earlier on the same night as our weekly session, and only a few blocks away.)
That said, most players are guilty of ripping through a set or two too fast now and then. It can be a form of stretching, testing the straightjacket so to speak. But if it's every tune, week after week--and the music is suffering for it--try starting a tune yourself at a reasonable pace. (Try the Annamaculeen Reel--it's in the tune archive, and sounds terrific at a walking pace.) If they stampede over you and race to the finish, you can either insult their sense of rhythm (done with a smile, a perfectly legitimate form of session feedback), or respectfully introduce rule of thumb # 2, or go find (or organize) a session more suited to your tastes.
And I think I heard a speck of sarcasm there about those fiddlers who know a ton of tunes and play in bands ("so the must be good, right?"). Well placed, I'd say. Sounds to me like they've mistaken learning the notes for making music....
Will, I love you! *grin* I want to be you when I grow up! (Only prettier -- heh.) Although, Joe, I will say that I play in a fairly unornamented overall style myself right now, so give your Speedy Gonzalez fiddlers a break, maybe it's just their style to play unornamented as well. It's both a style decision and a practical one -- I'm trying to work on the feel and rhythm of the stuff rather than ornament, and I'd rather play the tunes without my horrible rolls (yes, I'm still working on them!) in public.
Brad, I just heard a story yesterday that cracked me up. A fiddler friend went to Ireland with a group of about ten players from Colorado some years back. They heard that James Burn, a great Donegal fiddler, was in the habit of playing at a certain pub. So they piled in a van and trekked out to this pub in the middle of nowhere.
When they arrived, not much of anything was happening in the sparsely populated pub, so they grabbed some drinks and started up their own crack while waiting for the famous fiddler to arrive. My friend Jim struck up a conversation with a big, burly and friendly guy at the bar over a pint. Jim thought he looked like a construction worker or something -- fingers like sausages, massive arms, etc. Turned out the guy had a pig farm down the road. Jim described his own work in turn and they had a nice chat.
Finally the guy asked him what brought the whole crew out to this pub in the middle of no place. Jim explained excitedly that they had heard that this great fiddler James Burn played regularly at the pub and that they were hoping to hear him play.
The pig farmer leapt to his feet, and his face lit up. "Tis I!" he shouted. "*I'm* James Burn!" and raced across the room. He grabbed a fiddle down off the wall and he was off. Jim still gets this beatific look on his face ten years later remembering the music Burn played -- and as the evening ripened and James Burn played on, set dancers showed up, other musicians came in, and it turned into one of those nights that anyone who comes from outside of Ireland dreams of having unfold in front of them.
So, what could be more in the tradition than a fiddling construction worker?! The best music in Ireland can be found in many a cop or farmer or secretary or janitor or computer programmer, and I think the music is more cherished and precious in folk with little time to spare for ought but work. Novelty of really new or obscure tunes and such aside, and I'm glad we've folk who study the stuff, the connections between everyday folk and music should always be maintained, in my semi-humble opinion!
That reminds me of a story that I heard anout Tony DeMarco & Ceaser Pacifi (sp?). I don't remember most of the details but to make a long story short....
Tony is a top notch fiddler - he went to Co. Sligo to learn more about Irish Tunes & vacation etc. So he found himself in a local pub in one of the rural villages looking for a session. He too was looking for a famed local fiddler whose name escapes me. Anyway it was the mid seventies & Tony & his friend also shared interest in Harley's & dressing like bikers. So they walked in the pub with their fringed leather jackets, tattoos etc. and sat down to start their own little session.One of the locals popped in saw the sight & ran over to the local fiddlers house & said, "Jesus you got to go down to the pub - there's a bunch of indians in there playing Irish music like I never heard it before." Everyone went to the pub & had a grat time. Tony wrote a jig called the "Sligo Indians" after the event. I'd post it, but I don't really know the tune - it is on JC's Tunefinder but I can't tell if it's a good setting or not. I've been posting to many tunes lately anyway.
PS when I think about the local sessions around me I can think of an Ins adjuster, a couple of carpenters, a steamfitter, an OBGYN, some students, etc etc etc..Not too many professional musicians. That's good, if their were too many prfessional musicians it wouldn't really be folk music anymore.
Brad: I really did mean 240 BPM. I think of that as the "standard" reel tempo. That's not the speed at which the foot is tapping - that would be 120, sure enough; 240 is the quarter note speed (assuming the tune is in standard notation).
BTW, I'm not playing guitar in these sessions; I'm playing flute. And I can relate to an unornamented style - I started learning with ornaments, but now I like to work on a lot of reels without ornaments; instead I push every backbeat with my breath. But ultimately, once I get that down (and I swear it's more difficult than ornamenting) I'd like my style to be a hybrid between the two approaches.
So I'm not really objecting to an unornamented style. I'm just objecting to the "feeling" I sometimes get that they're sacrificing style for speed.
The story about James Byrne could also fit Danny Meehan (also from Donegal but living in England) 'cause if you saw the hams on that bloke you would think they would be too big for the bass,let alone a titchy fiddle.
Danny Meehan has his own stlye which you can check out on his album 'Navvy on the Shore' for those who don't know his music.
He looks like an all-in wrestler.
By the way,Mr. Baloney,what does OBGYN stand for? Excuse my ignorance but I was brought up to ask if I did n't know about anything.
Dave
Good to see Danny Meehan getting some recognition recently. He used to play in London pubs in the late sixties, among them, the White Hart in Fulham. Danny is an ex amateur boxer and I remember seeing him stepping in to stop a fight breaking out at the White Hart. He didn
Sorry,Zina, your man could well be Burn.I just put Byrne automatically.
Mike,you should get in touch with Kane O'Rourke as he took me to a couple of sessions recently where Danny was playing and Mr. Meehan is indeed how you describe. One of these gatherings was the Bobby Casey memorial concert late last year.
I think he lives out of London now and visits from time to time but that's just my feeling.
To Danny Meehan and his unique hornpipes!
Dave
i shall now hand you over to Mr. O'Rourke to explain...
alrite zina, kane here. let me tell you about "Mr Danny Meehan"; a good friend of mine, and as said before by "mike" , a gentleman, and by the size of him, a "gentle GIANT", this man is huge, im glad i only swap tunes with this monster of a ex-boxer, he has hands like a bunch of bananas........... but anyway........ these hands play the violin with grace and ability, the last time i was in a session with him, he was on fire, great man for cigars and wisky. and he'd be in showman time. playing wild extravagant horpipes, its his speciality. he is the "bees bollox" when it comes to hornpipes, he has the wild imagination of "tommy potts"[well maybe not.....quite that nuts]. to be continued, im mashed
the music at feisanna is traditional yes, the musicians may not be the best but- the dancers need do need some kind of beat to dance to. and i don't think that feisanna are really places that all the musicians go to exchange tunes or to help trad music thrive. if you listen to the music in 100% irish dance for instance or in any other irish dance music cd- even the danicng itself, it's all getting much less traditional! Lord of the Dance is all about michael flatley getting fame, the steps aren't that trad-they're mostly just for show- and whoever isn't in w/trad music and dancing, will not have a clue that this is getting farther and farther away from all the trad stuff.
Feis Music
Feis Music
I find music popular at feiseanna totally different from traditional music; I think it comes from a lack of emphasis on the music after all it is a dance competition. I saw one feis where about a hundred hard-shoe dancers were dancing to a handheld recorder in an echo-y gymnasium. Needless to say – the music was literally trampled under their feet. If the music is trampled it’s usually ok because it probably is sub-standard in the quality department.
For example - I have a Colin Dunne Video tape with the most embarrassing accordian player bumbling through the tunes, Colin Dunne could have gotten almost any musician to do this tape with him – but ended up with Helen Keller doing the tunes. Now little Suzy gets this tape & is wild about dancing, but has already is on the road to ignoring the quality of the music - or ignoring it because what she’s been exposed to is garbage. The tune choices can be just as shoddy – untraditional choices are way too common and if it’s a traditional tune, it’s usually one of those over played to the point of boredom tunes.
This of course is always the case every time, but it’s common enough that it’s been noticed by lots of people. I keep thinking of Zina & Josh Kane who know their arses from their armpits, but they are a minority in the sea of soccer moms pushing their kids into something that they know nothing about.
Ok now everyone can rip me into little bit sized pieces….
# Posted on January 7th 2002 by B Rad
Re: Feis Music
Actually, I pretty much agree, Brad. (Interesting new moniker, by the way. *grin*) Being a dancer certainly has nothing to do with knowing what you're talking about music-wise, just like being a musician doesn't mean you automatically know a single thing about stepdancing.
In fact, I've often been completely appalled by what some stepdancers (and in my own school!) include under the heading of "good music". I don't often like to talk down other musicians, but some of this stuff that's out there on synthesizers and stuff barely resembles what *I* know of to be good music. And I know dancers who love the stuff.
I have nothing but admiration for the great feis musicians -- going for hours upon end with the same tunes over and over and over...the fact that the really good musicians like Mike Shaffer can actually put anything out that actually resembles good traditional music is completely amazing. As a dancer, I love having a great musician with me -- they can make the difference between a medal or no place, honestly. But it's amazing the difference between dancing to something that's basically a fancy metronome, and music that's lifting you up into the air with lift and drive.
But I guess it kind of depends on what you mean by "popular" -- dancers are asked to danced to anything with the correct beat, so it's not really their fault. Over time, they get *used* to the music as they know it, and so their definition of "good" music is totally different from what a musician would have. I mean, think about how long it takes even a player to get some discernment going where the music is concerned! And that's with working at it.
Zina
# Posted on January 7th 2002 by Zina Lee
Body knowledge
Brad, in Irish dance the armpits are the ones that don't move. That's how usually i can tell them from the arses.
# Posted on January 7th 2002 by glauber
Re: Feis Music
There is a good fiddler named Larry Reynold's (no relation to Paddy)in Boston who's managed to keep a good repore (sp??? never good with those french words) with both the dancers & the session musicians. He's got a cast Iron Rhythm, and is familier with both bodies of tunes. I admire those players that can play set dances & hard shoe hornpipes colidly without speeding up or getting bored. I just wish that Feisanna relied more on us (local musicians) for music than over-produced stuff.
# Posted on January 7th 2002 by B Rad
Re: Feis Music
Hmm, the feissanna I see with my daughter usually use accordian players, and they're ok. Nuthin fancy, but they play the tune, at the appropriate speed. And now that I'm going to sessions, I recognize most of the tunes the feissana accordianists are playing. The difference is at the session, the tunes are usually about 5 times faster! What's that all about??!!@
Joe
# Posted on January 9th 2002 by jomac
Re: Feis Music
I guess it's pretty simple - sessions are musicians - dances are for dancers. The show piece dance rhythms are played slow so that the dancer can fit in all the steps, especially true for the slides & treble hornpipes. But it's not always the case - I've been around ceilidh dancers who I couldn't play fast enough for. Session players tend to play the tune at it's most suited tempo in sessions because a session is all about the music.
# Posted on January 9th 2002 by B Rad
Re: Feis Music
One of the greater accordian players and feis musicians .. Pat King
I' ve heard him play and used to dance to his music.
A master on the accordian for dancers and Trad. Irish music.
Slainte
Ted
# Posted on January 9th 2002 by Ted.hall
Re: Feis Music
Pat King is wonderful! So is Tony Nother. All of the feis musicians I know are also wonderful people.
Zina
# Posted on January 9th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Feis Music
Having been to about 1345 feises in the last 4 years, I have come to admire most of the musicians that I hear. Occasionally, I'll encounter some pretty tacky players, but the good ones more than make up for the bad. Listening to the feis musicians playing hour after hour with rock solid tempos and rhythms keeps me from rushing the new pieces that I'm learning. After all, dance is inextricably linked to Irish music. I also enjoy the purity of Irish tunes played with fairly simple ornamentation, particularly when I get to hear a solo fiddle player accompanying the dancers. I know that I hear Irish music in an entirely different way when I experience it like that. I now find myself even enjoying accordian music (can I be treated for this condition??).
# Posted on January 10th 2002 by gfox1606
Re: Feis Music
I guess so, but is being able to play "The Butterfly" at 60BPM for two hours straight really an admirable skill?
# Posted on January 10th 2002 by B Rad
Re: Feis Music
If it's still good music, it is.
Seriously, Brad, you'd be surprised -- a bad musician can keep The Butterfly going (not that they would -- it's only the set dances and figures that have certain tunes required) for that long and have it be just as good music at the end as at the beginning, or pretty close.
Anyone who can play for 9 or 10 hours and keep the music lively and swingy and beautiful no matter how tired and bored they are has my admiration.
Zina
# Posted on January 11th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Feis Music
Brad: Regarding the "Sessions are for musicians ..." Obviously; but what I'm ... complaining about, I guess, is that at a feis a reel is typically played at about quarter = 240; a very reasonable tempo, to my mind, fairly quick, but not blazing. And no doubt some reels are better at a blazing tempo, and some are better slower. But at the session I attend, everybody plays EVERYTHING considerably faster! Ok, maybe this is sour grapes, to a point, because I am a beginner and the tunes I can pull off at quarter = 280 are durn few at this point, but it does seem that the speed thing is being overdone a bit. Maybe it's just me. And I'm also not sure what I think of the style: there's a couple of flutists and whistlers who throw in a few ornaments here and there, even at top speed, but the fiddlers (who know tons of tunes and who are playing in working bands so they must be good, right?) just saw through the tunes at top speed with no ornamentation or style that I can hear. Is that typical of some "official" Irtrad fiddle styles?
I still attend this session regularly: I like the atmosphere, it's fun, it's challenging to keep up, but I gotta tell you - I like a lot of the stuff the way I do it by myself better!
Joe
# Posted on January 11th 2002 by jomac
Re: Feis Music
240BPM?!! You must mean 120BPM, which is about full tilt for most sessions I've been to. I bet the fiddlers are putting in ornaments your just not hearing it, I've honestly never heard a fiddler who didn't at least put in something - I tried to play tunes with out any ornaments & found it next a really big challenge. It would seem good sense that a fiddler in a working band would mean they are good, but I've noticed it's not always the case. I can't say bip about the fiddlers at your local session cause I've never been there & don't know them, but I'm pretty sure at least one of them is putting in an occasional grace note.
Remember what I said about the guitar in another conversation, If you can play even 10 reels at full speed on guitar your doing great. But the guitar is incredibly unweildy for playing Irish Tunes which require a fast nimble instrument. I know that it's the workhorse of our time but you'll probably be a lot happier (playing at your local session) with a tenor banjo.
I have been to sessions that have gotten carried away with speed & I agree it's the pits - the music gets sacrificed for sheer speed. I'm a hell of a lot happier playing an off the beaten path tune at a slow swingy pace than I am playing a learner tune as fast as I(we) can.
I know the "Sour Grapes" feeling that you have, there's another local session around my way that's run by a great fiddler named Chris McGrath. He's a great solid fiddler, my problem with his session isn't speed, rather it's the tunes. I probably know how to play around 500 tunes & I know the melodies to about 1500. But I can listen to him play for two hours before I hear one I've even heard before. Chris does have the edge in that he is an ethnomusicologist for Brown University & I'm a construction worker. While I'm running around in the mud he's doing whatever ethnomusicologists do. Which has a hell of a lot more to do with tunes than flopping around in the mud. He's up on all fresh new stuff were I'm more interested in the Co. Sligo rep. In short I'm useless at his sessions and yep, it's frustrating - so I go to the sessions offer me what I want. If your session is indeed full of folks who put speed before quality, start another, it doesn't have to even be in a pub. just get some folks on the same brainwave as you & have them over on Saturday afternoon.
# Posted on January 11th 2002 by B Rad
Re: Feis Music
Joe, the next time you go to that session, look around for a big metal rod sticking out of the floor at an odd angle. Spit on your palms and give it a good yank--really put your back into it. That lever is the emergency handbrake on what sounds like a runaway train. Chances are, you won't find it, but someone will notice you peering under all the chairs and behind instrument cases, and when they ask what you're looking for, you can explain. Maybe they'll actually listen.
This speed/tempo issue comes around and around. Beginners often complain about "fast" tempos that are in fact comfortable for experienced players, and some experienced players complain when the pace slows too far. But your description of the fiddlers was all to familiar--a wall of noise, no articulation, no time to embellish or even enjoy the notes as they rocket by.
Some people say it's simple--the really good players know what tempo to play at, and everyone else just has to keep up or get out of the way. I think it's far more complicated because so many factors contribute to what tempo works on a given tune on a given day for a given set of musicians. Some tunes sound good really slow, and some can make the hair on your neck stand up when played lightning fast (in the right hands). Whether any particular tempo is going to work *that night* depends on the players' abilities, their moods, the temperature of the room, the ratio of Guinness in the glass to Guinness in the gullet, etc. Good players know this and adjust accordingly.
My own rules of thumb are:
(1) If you're going too fast to play ornaments and variations cleanly, you're going too fast. (It doesn't matter that you've played it this fast cleanly before--it's not working now.)
(2) When someone in the circle starts a tune, people should not try to change the tempo when they join in. If it's too fast for you, sit it out (or try to follow along softly).
(3) When a dancer asks for a tune, ask what tempo s/he wants. Have them do a few steps to set the beat--tap your foot along and then start the music at that tempo. (We sometimes have dancers at our sessions--in part because their classes are earlier on the same night as our weekly session, and only a few blocks away.)
That said, most players are guilty of ripping through a set or two too fast now and then. It can be a form of stretching, testing the straightjacket so to speak. But if it's every tune, week after week--and the music is suffering for it--try starting a tune yourself at a reasonable pace. (Try the Annamaculeen Reel--it's in the tune archive, and sounds terrific at a walking pace.) If they stampede over you and race to the finish, you can either insult their sense of rhythm (done with a smile, a perfectly legitimate form of session feedback), or respectfully introduce rule of thumb # 2, or go find (or organize) a session more suited to your tastes.
And I think I heard a speck of sarcasm there about those fiddlers who know a ton of tunes and play in bands ("so the must be good, right?"). Well placed, I'd say. Sounds to me like they've mistaken learning the notes for making music....
Good luck
# Posted on January 11th 2002 by Will Harmon
Re: Feis Music
Will, I love you! *grin* I want to be you when I grow up! (Only prettier -- heh.) Although, Joe, I will say that I play in a fairly unornamented overall style myself right now, so give your Speedy Gonzalez fiddlers a break, maybe it's just their style to play unornamented as well. It's both a style decision and a practical one -- I'm trying to work on the feel and rhythm of the stuff rather than ornament, and I'd rather play the tunes without my horrible rolls (yes, I'm still working on them!) in public.
Brad, I just heard a story yesterday that cracked me up. A fiddler friend went to Ireland with a group of about ten players from Colorado some years back. They heard that James Burn, a great Donegal fiddler, was in the habit of playing at a certain pub. So they piled in a van and trekked out to this pub in the middle of nowhere.
When they arrived, not much of anything was happening in the sparsely populated pub, so they grabbed some drinks and started up their own crack while waiting for the famous fiddler to arrive. My friend Jim struck up a conversation with a big, burly and friendly guy at the bar over a pint. Jim thought he looked like a construction worker or something -- fingers like sausages, massive arms, etc. Turned out the guy had a pig farm down the road. Jim described his own work in turn and they had a nice chat.
Finally the guy asked him what brought the whole crew out to this pub in the middle of no place. Jim explained excitedly that they had heard that this great fiddler James Burn played regularly at the pub and that they were hoping to hear him play.
The pig farmer leapt to his feet, and his face lit up. "Tis I!" he shouted. "*I'm* James Burn!" and raced across the room. He grabbed a fiddle down off the wall and he was off. Jim still gets this beatific look on his face ten years later remembering the music Burn played -- and as the evening ripened and James Burn played on, set dancers showed up, other musicians came in, and it turned into one of those nights that anyone who comes from outside of Ireland dreams of having unfold in front of them.
So, what could be more in the tradition than a fiddling construction worker?! The best music in Ireland can be found in many a cop or farmer or secretary or janitor or computer programmer, and I think the music is more cherished and precious in folk with little time to spare for ought but work. Novelty of really new or obscure tunes and such aside, and I'm glad we've folk who study the stuff, the connections between everyday folk and music should always be maintained, in my semi-humble opinion!
Zina
# Posted on January 12th 2002 by Zina Lee
Sligo Indians
That reminds me of a story that I heard anout Tony DeMarco & Ceaser Pacifi (sp?). I don't remember most of the details but to make a long story short....
Tony is a top notch fiddler - he went to Co. Sligo to learn more about Irish Tunes & vacation etc. So he found himself in a local pub in one of the rural villages looking for a session. He too was looking for a famed local fiddler whose name escapes me. Anyway it was the mid seventies & Tony & his friend also shared interest in Harley's & dressing like bikers. So they walked in the pub with their fringed leather jackets, tattoos etc. and sat down to start their own little session.One of the locals popped in saw the sight & ran over to the local fiddlers house & said, "Jesus you got to go down to the pub - there's a bunch of indians in there playing Irish music like I never heard it before." Everyone went to the pub & had a grat time. Tony wrote a jig called the "Sligo Indians" after the event. I'd post it, but I don't really know the tune - it is on JC's Tunefinder but I can't tell if it's a good setting or not. I've been posting to many tunes lately anyway.
PS when I think about the local sessions around me I can think of an Ins adjuster, a couple of carpenters, a steamfitter, an OBGYN, some students, etc etc etc..Not too many professional musicians. That's good, if their were too many prfessional musicians it wouldn't really be folk music anymore.
# Posted on January 12th 2002 by B Rad
Re: Feis Music
Brad: I really did mean 240 BPM. I think of that as the "standard" reel tempo. That's not the speed at which the foot is tapping - that would be 120, sure enough; 240 is the quarter note speed (assuming the tune is in standard notation).
BTW, I'm not playing guitar in these sessions; I'm playing flute. And I can relate to an unornamented style - I started learning with ornaments, but now I like to work on a lot of reels without ornaments; instead I push every backbeat with my breath. But ultimately, once I get that down (and I swear it's more difficult than ornamenting) I'd like my style to be a hybrid between the two approaches.
So I'm not really objecting to an unornamented style. I'm just objecting to the "feeling" I sometimes get that they're sacrificing style for speed.
Joe
# Posted on January 14th 2002 by jomac
Re: Feis Music
The story about James Byrne could also fit Danny Meehan (also from Donegal but living in England) 'cause if you saw the hams on that bloke you would think they would be too big for the bass,let alone a titchy fiddle.
Danny Meehan has his own stlye which you can check out on his album 'Navvy on the Shore' for those who don't know his music.
He looks like an all-in wrestler.
By the way,Mr. Baloney,what does OBGYN stand for? Excuse my ignorance but I was brought up to ask if I did n't know about anything.
Dave
# Posted on January 14th 2002 by biggus dave
Re: Feis Music
Heh. Obstetrics/Gynecology, Dave. It's a kind of doctor.
IS it Byrne and not Burn? I did find several references to a Donegal fiddler named James Burn, but Byrne seems much more likely...
zls
# Posted on January 14th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Feis Music
Good to see Danny Meehan getting some recognition recently. He used to play in London pubs in the late sixties, among them, the White Hart in Fulham. Danny is an ex amateur boxer and I remember seeing him stepping in to stop a fight breaking out at the White Hart. He didn
# Posted on January 15th 2002 by murfbox
Re: Feis Music
Sorry,Zina, your man could well be Burn.I just put Byrne automatically.
Mike,you should get in touch with Kane O'Rourke as he took me to a couple of sessions recently where Danny was playing and Mr. Meehan is indeed how you describe. One of these gatherings was the Bobby Casey memorial concert late last year.
I think he lives out of London now and visits from time to time but that's just my feeling.
To Danny Meehan and his unique hornpipes!
Dave
# Posted on January 15th 2002 by biggus dave
Re: Feis Music
Oh now, Classical Boy, you have to explain that. I don't know Meehan's playing -- how are his hornpipes unique?
zls
# Posted on January 15th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Feis Music
i shall now hand you over to Mr. O'Rourke to explain...
alrite zina, kane here. let me tell you about "Mr Danny Meehan"; a good friend of mine, and as said before by "mike" , a gentleman, and by the size of him, a "gentle GIANT", this man is huge, im glad i only swap tunes with this monster of a ex-boxer, he has hands like a bunch of bananas........... but anyway........ these hands play the violin with grace and ability, the last time i was in a session with him, he was on fire, great man for cigars and wisky. and he'd be in showman time. playing wild extravagant horpipes, its his speciality. he is the "bees bollox" when it comes to hornpipes, he has the wild imagination of "tommy potts"[well maybe not.....quite that nuts]. to be continued, im mashed
# Posted on January 16th 2002 by biggus dave
Re: Feis Music
Hallo, Kane -- bee's bollox! dog's nads! I always get an education when you're about, O'Rourke! *grin*
Dave, how is it that whenever O'Rourke is around, you're both swilled to the eyeballs? Heh.
I can see that I shall have to look up Mr. Meehan's playing. I hope he plays hornpipes on the album!
Zina
# Posted on January 16th 2002 by Zina Lee
Re: Feis Music
the music at feisanna is traditional yes, the musicians may not be the best but- the dancers need do need some kind of beat to dance to. and i don't think that feisanna are really places that all the musicians go to exchange tunes or to help trad music thrive. if you listen to the music in 100% irish dance for instance or in any other irish dance music cd- even the danicng itself, it's all getting much less traditional! Lord of the Dance is all about michael flatley getting fame, the steps aren't that trad-they're mostly just for show- and whoever isn't in w/trad music and dancing, will not have a clue that this is getting farther and farther away from all the trad stuff.
# Posted on August 17th 2002 by Kallie
Re: Feis Music
http://thesession.org/discussions/display.php/276/comments#comment3799
Chris is a Math teacher now, he wasn't even an ethno...ist when I posted that. I'm not in construction anymore either.
Now isn't that better?
# Posted on May 27th 2004 by B Rad