I hope that I'm not going to offend anyone with this post as I really don't intend it to be sexist, bodhranist, or singerist in any way. :>))
Last night, I went to see Cherish the Ladies. It wasn't one of their better performances, although it was entertaining enough, but that's another story. The singer, Heidi Talbot, had a few songs to do but for much of the rest of the evening she was "sitting out the rest of the tunes" apart from a few bursts of the bodhran on some of the more up tempo numbers. Her playing was more than adequate, although not outstanding. However, I began to wonder about the practice of singers/front people in bands playing or feeling obliged to play percussive instruments. It's quite often, but certainly *not* exclusively-(-remember Mick Jagger and his maracas ) a female phenomenon. There are , of course, some excellent exponents of this in the traditional music scene by singers --e.g Cathy Jordan of Dervish but I feel that, in some cases, they are just going through the motions so that they can have something to do.
I realise that the other musicians have their "hands full" and, I suppose, that the singer is the most obvious choice to fill in with the spoons, bodhran, etc. However, is it possible that most bands don't regard percussion as particularly important to the set up, just as a "side show", or so easy that anyone can do do it ? I realise that there's not too many John Joe Kellys going around so, maybe, it's not feasible for each band to have it's own bodhran player. Also, it *is* a shame to under utilise the talents of an individual band member i.e. the singer or whoever, if he/she is more than capable of filling another role.
I realise that there are many bands with excellent singers/come percussionists so I'm *not* condemning this practice out of hand. In most of the better bands, this set up is more than adequate but, occasionally, I feel this can be a weakness in the overall performance. What do you think?
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Well, I think the same as you do. While I do like good bodhran playing, the music can get along without it, whereas bad bodhran playing is capable of ruining an entire performance of a piece or set for me. On the other hand, I'm not going to mistake "adequate" for "awful", either, and I'd agree that if a singer can play the bodhran adequately and isn't doing anything else, and it works in the performance, then why not?
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Well, lads and lassies. When I played in bands they often encouraged me to sing the slow airs when the bodhran wasn't needed. Problem was/is Normally I don't sing but when I do I don't sing normally.
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
I think you're right John, in your initial surmise. The singer wants something to do with his/her hands - and most people seem to think that percussion needs nothing more than a reasonable sense of rhythm.
In all the talk we get on this site about bodhrans, I have come to realise how lucky I have been over the years. We used to have a superb goatwhacker at our session, but he's gone underground now (6 feet under), and now we have another very good whacker.
I noticed on some thread a few weeks/months back that somebody was singing the praise of a goatwhacker who was so good that he changed the note of the goat to fit the ups and downs of the tune. And I always thought that was just standard practice for goatwhackers - along with playing quietly or not at all when appropriate, and being the uncomplaining butt of wicked humour.
As the lovely Zina puts it, bad bodhran playing (or other percussion) can ruing an entire piece. Don't leave it to the amateurs. Perhaps all singers should do something else with their hands. Electric singers get to hold a microphone. Perhaps Trad singers ought to do something like put a finger in one ear, or stroke their magnificent beards.
No animals were harmed during the writing of this post.
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Come to think of it ... when skinning the goat, the baste's magnificent beard could be left intact, thus allowing the idle-handed singer to whack the skin *OR* stroke the "MB" according to their mood! Malachy ... are you listenin' in, bhoy? You could develop a whole new range here! Bags I the Ronnie Drew model!!
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Well, John, sorry just got on this thread, but it does appear to be a woman's thing most of the time. Rock chicks with tambourines (eg Nico in Velvet Underground and back up singer with Hank Wangford)- I did not quite realised it extended to trad music. The problem is when a singer plays with a band that also does instrumentals. I remember seeing Kate Rusby with Tim o'Brien a few years back and she only got to do a couple of songs (beautifully of course) and a bit of back up singing. The rest of the time the poor woman just stood there looking awkward, whilst the others did some instrumentals. It seems she was not allowed to join in on the guitar. I have seen a few female fronted bands where the woman had a token guitar and sang her own dismal love/loss songs. I remember once asking my husband 'Do you know why women singer/guitarists write such sad, sad song? Because E minor and A minor are the easiest chords to play'. Seriously though, from personal experience, I find it easier to play guitar than any percussion, even badly, so skin bashing may not actually be the logical choice.
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
D'yis know, i was thinkin' of getting one of those Bob Dylan style harmonica holders for around me neck so's I could play the bodhran and harmonica at the same time. Thing is, I'd have to find a SERIOUS harmonica person to teach me. and they're few and far between on this site.
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Joe, you could also be wearing a bustier (Madonnaesque)on top w/ Shakey Eggs attached whilst gyrating a la Cocker. Mr. Crossey could stand behind and stroke yer MB. Call your act "The Mades of Cavan". Worth the price of a ticket!
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
While singing a wee 19-verse ditty the other night, a little number I learned from a singer late of my locality prior to his moving away to pastures greener (very GREEN-er, no doubt), and - by verse 25 - finding myself at a loss as to what to do with my hands, I took Dave's advice and began to stroke my magnificent beard. As I stroked, I delved and as I delved I discovered a whole new world. Lodged in the magnificence of my facial foliage were two shaky eggs, a pair of maraccas, a set of bones and a discarded rainstick. "That's where those boys disappeared..." thought I, arming myself with said tools for self-accompaniment for the remainder of my 32-verse ditty. By verse 40 I succumbed to an itch in my magnificant follicles and, delving again, felt my fingers brush against a little beast which I pursued around my physiognomous hirsuteness, chasing the creature around, betwixt and between individual hairs. At last, somewhere around verse 50, having cornered the little yoke in a particularly impenetrable thicket I took it between finger and thumb and extracted. Imagine my surprise when, expecting to bid my good-days to a flay, louse or some such article, I found Paddy Moloney dangling by his collar in my grip. The things you find in the oul' beard, eh? You couldn't be up to it! Needless to say, I'll be paying a wee bit more attention to personal grooming from this point on ...
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Er, Aidan, could you get me some of that acid, please? I used to know Paddy Moloney's daughter, Aidine, an actress. Very nice lass. Was meant to do a gig with her singing and me and big Mick O'C. backing/doing tunes but, can't remember why, now, but it never came off. No kidding.
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Danny ... I'll get back to you on a minute on the above, but I've just bumped into Ronnie Drew and Noel Purcell and between the three of us, having had a good oul' hoke in our MBs, we've unearthed enough instruments, musicaners, comestibles and potables for a fleadh! I'd try thon finger-in-the-ear stuff but am scared of what I might encounter in the cavernous depths.
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Dave,
Said tattoo has been mentioned but I can't find any info such as what the tattoo is and where she has it located. I've given thought to a tattoo and would like suggestions.....
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
We've been trying for quite some time now to get him to describe said tattoo and give it's location. He just gets a metaphorical dreamy look on his face and then we don't see him for an hour or so.
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Well I know Kevin Conneff of The Chieftains doesn't just play the bodhran because the other members want him to. He was searched out by Moloney to be the bodhran player, and him being able to sing was just a plus.
Just a quick comment on the "idle hands" chat.I find this web site
very convenient for tunes,but sometimes drift through your discussions.I have been playing percussion professionally for 11
years,so am well used to the mindless critical comments toward
bodhran players.I have played with both Heidi and Cathy Jordan and found both their playing of high standard.What amuses me most is how you criticise what singers do between songs,forgetting they can also play.Fact is,give any so called "purist"trad player an instrumental mid-song and all you receive is a flat boring rendition of the songs melody yet again.
Yes of course a badly played bodhran is horrible,just like any
badly played instrument.
So remember next time,when your verbally bashing every bodhran
player in sight within the comfort of 4 or 5 other trad players covering your own mistakes,when you play with an ounce of the
feeling and emotion singers like Heidi and Cathy have in their voices in front of 1600 people,criticise all you like.
" The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
" The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
I hope that I'm not going to offend anyone with this post as I really don't intend it to be sexist, bodhranist, or singerist in any way. :>))
Last night, I went to see Cherish the Ladies. It wasn't one of their better performances, although it was entertaining enough, but that's another story. The singer, Heidi Talbot, had a few songs to do but for much of the rest of the evening she was "sitting out the rest of the tunes" apart from a few bursts of the bodhran on some of the more up tempo numbers. Her playing was more than adequate, although not outstanding. However, I began to wonder about the practice of singers/front people in bands playing or feeling obliged to play percussive instruments. It's quite often, but certainly *not* exclusively-(-remember Mick Jagger and his maracas ) a female phenomenon. There are , of course, some excellent exponents of this in the traditional music scene by singers --e.g Cathy Jordan of Dervish but I feel that, in some cases, they are just going through the motions so that they can have something to do.
I realise that the other musicians have their "hands full" and, I suppose, that the singer is the most obvious choice to fill in with the spoons, bodhran, etc. However, is it possible that most bands don't regard percussion as particularly important to the set up, just as a "side show", or so easy that anyone can do do it ? I realise that there's not too many John Joe Kellys going around so, maybe, it's not feasible for each band to have it's own bodhran player. Also, it *is* a shame to under utilise the talents of an individual band member i.e. the singer or whoever, if he/she is more than capable of filling another role.
I realise that there are many bands with excellent singers/come percussionists so I'm *not* condemning this practice out of hand. In most of the better bands, this set up is more than adequate but, occasionally, I feel this can be a weakness in the overall performance. What do you think?
John
# Posted on January 19th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
I think all singers should do what Joe Cocker does, and wiggle their fingers in the air a lot.
Ees jest Carazee, man.
# Posted on January 19th 2004 by Q
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Well, I think the same as you do.
While I do like good bodhran playing, the music can get along without it, whereas bad bodhran playing is capable of ruining an entire performance of a piece or set for me. On the other hand, I'm not going to mistake "adequate" for "awful", either, and I'd agree that if a singer can play the bodhran adequately and isn't doing anything else, and it works in the performance, then why not?
# Posted on January 19th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
I agree, Zina and I had no problem with Heidi's performance last night. It just set me thinking about the subject.
John
# Posted on January 19th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Well, so long as you're being serious, Johnny.
# Posted on January 19th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Well, lads and lassies. When I played in bands they often encouraged me to sing the slow airs when the bodhran wasn't needed. Problem was/is Normally I don't sing but when I do I don't sing normally.
# Posted on January 19th 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
I think you're right John, in your initial surmise. The singer wants something to do with his/her hands - and most people seem to think that percussion needs nothing more than a reasonable sense of rhythm.
In all the talk we get on this site about bodhrans, I have come to realise how lucky I have been over the years. We used to have a superb goatwhacker at our session, but he's gone underground now (6 feet under), and now we have another very good whacker.
I noticed on some thread a few weeks/months back that somebody was singing the praise of a goatwhacker who was so good that he changed the note of the goat to fit the ups and downs of the tune. And I always thought that was just standard practice for goatwhackers - along with playing quietly or not at all when appropriate, and being the uncomplaining butt of wicked humour.
As the lovely Zina puts it, bad bodhran playing (or other percussion) can ruing an entire piece. Don't leave it to the amateurs. Perhaps all singers should do something else with their hands. Electric singers get to hold a microphone. Perhaps Trad singers ought to do something like put a finger in one ear, or stroke their magnificent beards.
No animals were harmed during the writing of this post.
Dave
# Posted on January 19th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Come on Joe - we're having a serious discussion here.
;o)
Dave
# Posted on January 19th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
I hope Kate Rusby doesn't grow a beard, Dave. She's lovely the way she is. :>))
# Posted on January 19th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
What came first - the Idle handed singer or the shakey egg?
# Posted on January 19th 2004 by mikemcdaid
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
The name Heidi gives me an idea; I could yodel the songs and wear leder-hosen in between bodhran playing.
# Posted on January 19th 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
I'd be quite keen to see Heidi stroke her magnificent beard.
Is that serious enough?
# Posted on January 19th 2004 by Ottery
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
If any beardless singers struggle to occupy their hands when singing, they may stoke *my* magnificent beard.
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Aidan Crossey
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
LOL -- aauugh, Mark! *looking for something virtual to throw at ottery*
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
There she is without the beard. :>))
http://www.cherishtheladies.com/heidi.html
John
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Johnny Jay
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Wowee, she's pretty magnificent without the beard, that's for sure...
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Come to think of it ... when skinning the goat, the baste's magnificent beard could be left intact, thus allowing the idle-handed singer to whack the skin *OR* stroke the "MB" according to their mood! Malachy ... are you listenin' in, bhoy? You could develop a whole new range here! Bags I the Ronnie Drew model!!
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Aidan Crossey
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
...at least Cathy Jordan does the 'Joe Cocker' thing with her hands and is a fair Bodhr
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by DeffGoat
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Well, John, sorry just got on this thread, but it does appear to be a woman's thing most of the time. Rock chicks with tambourines (eg Nico in Velvet Underground and back up singer with Hank Wangford)- I did not quite realised it extended to trad music. The problem is when a singer plays with a band that also does instrumentals. I remember seeing Kate Rusby with Tim o'Brien a few years back and she only got to do a couple of songs (beautifully of course) and a bit of back up singing. The rest of the time the poor woman just stood there looking awkward, whilst the others did some instrumentals. It seems she was not allowed to join in on the guitar. I have seen a few female fronted bands where the woman had a token guitar and sang her own dismal love/loss songs. I remember once asking my husband 'Do you know why women singer/guitarists write such sad, sad song? Because E minor and A minor are the easiest chords to play'. Seriously though, from personal experience, I find it easier to play guitar than any percussion, even badly, so skin bashing may not actually be the logical choice.
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Cath
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
D'yis know, i was thinkin' of getting one of those Bob Dylan style harmonica holders for around me neck so's I could play the bodhran and harmonica at the same time. Thing is, I'd have to find a SERIOUS harmonica person to teach me. and they're few and far between on this site.
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Joe ..and strap some mini cymbals to yer knees !!!!
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by DeffGoat
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
And Morris bells on me ankles and i could clack sticks with the other 24 bodhran players at the sessiun.
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Joe, you could also be wearing a bustier (Madonnaesque)on top w/ Shakey Eggs attached whilst gyrating a la Cocker. Mr. Crossey could stand behind and stroke yer MB. Call your act "The Mades of Cavan". Worth the price of a ticket!
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
While singing a wee 19-verse ditty the other night, a little number I learned from a singer late of my locality prior to his moving away to pastures greener (very GREEN-er, no doubt), and - by verse 25 - finding myself at a loss as to what to do with my hands, I took Dave's advice and began to stroke my magnificent beard. As I stroked, I delved and as I delved I discovered a whole new world. Lodged in the magnificence of my facial foliage were two shaky eggs, a pair of maraccas, a set of bones and a discarded rainstick. "That's where those boys disappeared..." thought I, arming myself with said tools for self-accompaniment for the remainder of my 32-verse ditty. By verse 40 I succumbed to an itch in my magnificant follicles and, delving again, felt my fingers brush against a little beast which I pursued around my physiognomous hirsuteness, chasing the creature around, betwixt and between individual hairs. At last, somewhere around verse 50, having cornered the little yoke in a particularly impenetrable thicket I took it between finger and thumb and extracted. Imagine my surprise when, expecting to bid my good-days to a flay, louse or some such article, I found Paddy Moloney dangling by his collar in my grip. The things you find in the oul' beard, eh? You couldn't be up to it! Needless to say, I'll be paying a wee bit more attention to personal grooming from this point on ...
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Aidan Crossey
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Er, Aidan, could you get me some of that acid, please? I used to know Paddy Moloney's daughter, Aidine, an actress. Very nice lass. Was meant to do a gig with her singing and me and big Mick O'C. backing/doing tunes but, can't remember why, now, but it never came off. No kidding.
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Danny ... I'll get back to you on a minute on the above, but I've just bumped into Ronnie Drew and Noel Purcell and between the three of us, having had a good oul' hoke in our MBs, we've unearthed enough instruments, musicaners, comestibles and potables for a fleadh! I'd try thon finger-in-the-ear stuff but am scared of what I might encounter in the cavernous depths.
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Aidan Crossey
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Some of the remarks above draw me inexorably back to Kathryn Tickells tattoo.
Sorry.
Dave
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by showaddydadito
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Dave,
Said tattoo has been mentioned but I can't find any info such as what the tattoo is and where she has it located. I've given thought to a tattoo and would like suggestions.....
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
We've been trying for quite some time now to get him to describe said tattoo and give it's location. He just gets a metaphorical dreamy look on his face and then we don't see him for an hour or so.
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Does Dave know of the belly button ring?
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Kathryn Tickell has a belly button ring?
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
I honestly don't know. I just figured that might get him out of his dream and answer the question!
Could back fire tho. The dreamy state could be a permament afflication.
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
I can beat a grand tattoo. Free ticket to Debwah and anyone else who cares to attend. Where's the tattoo?
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Great Joe! How about adding a belly button ring to your ensemble? We could all moon about you instead of Ms.Tickell.
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Agnes Nutter
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
Well I know Kevin Conneff of The Chieftains doesn't just play the bodhran because the other members want him to. He was searched out by Moloney to be the bodhran player, and him being able to sing was just a plus.
Johnathan
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Harper_Lad
Re: " The devil finds work for idle hands to do ..."
See? Ha!
# Posted on January 20th 2004 by Joe Quinn
Re"TRAD SNOB'S AND CRITICS!"
Just a quick comment on the "idle hands" chat.I find this web site
very convenient for tunes,but sometimes drift through your discussions.I have been playing percussion professionally for 11
years,so am well used to the mindless critical comments toward
bodhran players.I have played with both Heidi and Cathy Jordan and found both their playing of high standard.What amuses me most is how you criticise what singers do between songs,forgetting they can also play.Fact is,give any so called "purist"trad player an instrumental mid-song and all you receive is a flat boring rendition of the songs melody yet again.
Yes of course a badly played bodhran is horrible,just like any
badly played instrument.
So remember next time,when your verbally bashing every bodhran
player in sight within the comfort of 4 or 5 other trad players covering your own mistakes,when you play with an ounce of the
feeling and emotion singers like Heidi and Cathy have in their voices in front of 1600 people,criticise all you like.
Offaly.
# Posted on February 1st 2004 by woodbinemusic