I'd be interested to hear what standard of playing those of you who are involved in regular open sessions require (whether stated or not) of new session members. I suppose by "standard" I mean knowledge of tunes, ability to apply variations & ornamentation, and speed.
I remember asking one session leader, who told me I would need to be able to keep up with the Bothy Band -- I won't be going to that one for a while (or maybe ever.) Maybe it was her polite way of saying the session wasn't "open." ...
I don't think it's a question of standard, more of attitude. If you only know Planxty Irwin, then there's no problem having you in the session, provided you don't try to fake your way through fast tunes and mess them up for everyone. And at some point in the proceedings we could play Planxty Irwin. People who are disruptive(unwelcome?) at sessions tend not to be people of a different level, as much as people, who might even be more accomplished than the core of the session, who don't use their ears enough.
I hope I don't "require" anything out of new session attendees but good manners, and hope that I return the same. Now, whether their abilities are up to some spoken or unspoken standard...well, that's a whole 'nother can of worms. Used to be that you simply didn't play out until you were ready to play out. That's changed quite a bit these days.
I've been to a couple of sessions that I was told that I needed to be an "expert" player to really be welcome, and when I got there to listen (and I was taught that all beginning players should head out to their local sessions sans instruments so they can listen while getting themselves ready to play out), discovered that I should have brought the thing but was now not sure I'd enjoy playing with that group of musos at all due to one thing or another.
I've been to a couple of sessions where they told me to bring my fiddle and to play no matter what my level and in fact encouraged me to play all through the thing with me uncomfortably knowing that if I did I'd be lowering the tone by an unforgiveable amount. (best to play along on a few tunes -- very very quietly -- to show willing and then put the fiddle down on the table and enjoy the music and talk and drink and had a good time that way.)
Speaking really, really frankly, I suppose what I look for most from someone I'm sizing up at a session is knowledge and manners. Do they know and realize that they are a beginner and behave as such rather than trying to come over as someone more experienced? Do they twiddle and noodle when they don't know tunes? (ie: are they a Tweety?) Do they refer to Irish music and sessions as "Celtic" and a "jam"? (danger! danger, Will Robinson!) Do they ask the right questions? Did they bring a tape recorder? Often, modesty is far more important than ability, to be honest.
Personally, I think it's a mistake to think that, for instance, "speed=quality". The Kelly's session, as an example, was known for it's slower ("stately" I think is what Ciaran Carson called it) speed, but if I'd gone I think I'd have to think veeeeery carefully if I was up to the standard of that one. And once you get around to the sessions, you quickly realize that if you learned all your tunes at one session, it doesn't mean you're prepared for another even the next street over, so any serious session muso is going to not take marks off some mental list for a muso who doesn't know the tunes you play at yours.
I'll almost always be sure to start up a couple of tunes that I know the newbie knows (although if they're a beginner, I'll usually ask them to start the tune so I know how fast they'll play it before I come in with them -- and generally I find out what they know by simply asking them what tunes they know), but that's occasionally gotten me a couple of crossed eyes from session leaders. Still, it's worth it -- being able to play a tune with everyone at a session can make a beginner feel like a million bucks for two days. (And if the rest of the session isn't willing to play a tune a bit slowly to accomodate a newbie, because all of us remember that feeling or should, then damn right I'll take ticks off my opinion of *them*.)
Still, you can't go playing slow and only tunes a new member might know all night.
Keeping in mind that I consider myself only an intermediate player, no expert at all. So feel free to discount any of the above. Heh.
Out of interest, Zina, what would someone having (or not having) a tape recorder signify to you? (writing as one who has toyed with the idea of bringing a minidisc recorder to some sessions to take home some of the tunes, but never do, 'cos it always seems like a bit of an imposition).
It depends on what they already know, but if they're a beginner, then it shows that they are eager (or at least willing) to learn the tunes we play at our sessions, the way that we play them (using our settings, I mean, overall). People who can pick tunes up on the fly, of course, may not bother to bring a recorder with them.
We have at least two and often three sessions a week, we have a standard which one has to reach that is to play the Tourmore Polkas without stopping after consuming one gallon of Murphys Stout attain this and you are in for life. The speed does not really matter in fact speed destroys good music its the rythem that counts.
yes, i'd echo zina's thoughts. if you are a regular at a session and recognized as beginner, it'd be no problemo to bust out a md recorder. would probably be expected, and appreciated if results in you learning tunes common to that session. however, would not hurt to aks the sesh leader to ask permission if it's not obviously okay.
it's another story if you drop in on an unknown session; becomes touchy especially if there are recognized 'bigs' at a session who don't know you and/or might be touchy if not p*ssed off if you dropped your recorder into the session unannounced.
however, i think there is a general exception to this etiquette at a fleadh/festival where sessions pop up spontaneiously. i'd generally have no qualms recording pretty much anything in such circumstances. it's a free-for-all. although never hurts to err on the side of respectfull...
My impression has been around here that "open" sessions often eventually die because they are overrun by beginners. More advanced players stop coming as the quality drops, etc. It's a real concern for people who want a quality, challenging session and I don't think anyone has come up with a solution that doesn't offfend some subsection of the population.
I'd guess the best thing to do (as a beginner at a new session) would be to be aware of this potential problem and ask someone in that context. We don't have to read minds or guess what a specific situation is about; just ask!
Beginners who know they're beginners are rare and loved creatures.
Good stuff here. Zina's on a roll of late, nailing the *truth* with every post. I can't think of anything to add 'cept maybe our local experience....
Our session has plenty of newcomers to the music and/or their chosen instruments, but they have great attitudes. Most will give a fair go on tunes that they know, but if they're not so sure, then they play so quietly that it doesn't distract, or they just listen. We encourage mds and tape recorders, and as a memory aid and cross-reference, we supply tunebooks with basic settings of many of our tunes so people can work stuff up at home. We also hold a monthly tune learning session to swap tunes and help bring people up to speed.
Now, our situation is different than those of you living where the tradition breathes and eats. Here in Montana, if we didn't welcome newbies, our session would be a thin affair. At the same time, there are so few people at all in this backwater, we're not likely to get overrun with 20 wannabe fiddlers and 13 piano accordians, as I hear tell about in other locales. So our session works (I think)--a core of 4 to 6 strong players keep the tunes cranking and the general quality high, while welcoming newbies and gently fending off the infrequent total plonker.
Ah yes, that elusive beast...The Truth...it is of course more like trying to nail jello to a tree. *sigh* Guess I'd better go upstairs and neaten up a little, band rehearsal in a few minutes and I have nothing to feed them with, so I guess it's pizza for us...
Grego, I'm answering your question from the opposite side of the equation as someone who recently started session-ing - the only real requirement here seemed to be, as said above, a knowledge of how *not* to mess up the evening for everyone else.
I can play my better jigs at the session speed on a good night but can only *just* hang in there with one or two reels at speed and it’s not real pretty. I'm still at the stage with fiddle where nothing goes as well at the session as in the lounge room but that's as I expected, been-there-done-that before. So mostly I listen and when asked, will start the odd tune at my pace but I don't jump in without an invitation. I also took care to check out things like seating protocol. So I don’t contribute much, except perhaps to the craic and occasionally with a tune choice, but I try not to detract from the session either. It seems to work out in both directions.
(Heh, Zina, your comment re “expert” players reminds me of experiences as a workshop convenor in a previous existence. People I knew well as – at best - lower intermediates would frequently try to enrol in classes way above their competence, sometimes to avoid the beginners, but sometimes because they really considered themselves advanced because they’d been playing for years. It just moved the frustration they were trying to escape further up the food chain and inflicted it on semi-professionals and tertiary performance students instead. I’ve been suspicious of self-proclaimed “expert” or “advanced” players ever since. For a session leader to say “expert players only” to keep the hordes away in self defence would be understandable, but saying “closed” or “by invitation only” sets an objective threshold rather than a subjective one, and is more honest and foolproof. It also wouldn’t seem like unwarranted airs and graces were being put on if it were later discovered that the standard wasn’t exactly [insert famous group name here] after all. My tuppence-worth on that one, though personally I prefer knowing exactly where I stand to second-guessing and woolly admission criteria and other folks may well find my preferences a little too blunt.)
Well, I'm Mr. "yes and no" on this one. Firstly, I like to see new faces/new converts coming along to sesh's. But they need to be able to add *something*, albeit a drop in the bath (nearly said ocean, but feeling realistic tonight) especially when the welfare of the session depends on the patronage of the landlord, either in hard cash or hard drinks.
I believe, and I've been told....
(unless **They** are lying to me!! - I'm not paranoid, honest! - just don't tell **Them**)...
... that I'm quite welcoming to new folks at sessions. Believe it or not as you choose to assess my e-persona, I'm merely reporting. But, I have to say, quite openly, explicitly, I have my no-no's:
Thumper bodhran players.
Rainsticks, eggs, spoons (unless they're good), didgeridoos (actually, that's not true either - I brought one back from Oz a couple of years ago, but unless someone could do the circular breathing in D at the appropriate moments of a slow air or maybe a slip jig, forget it.)
People who bring along whistles, low whistles, jeez, anything really, who haven't a bloody clue. They don't practice, they care not for the fabric and fine tuning of the session, only that they be included within its numbers. Their wish (and concommitant fulfilment) to be thus included provides an elevation of status from the other personnae in the (eg) pub. OK, so long as they don't think they're at the same level as someone who has spent *slightly* more time playing....
Right - no more Mr Nasty Guy (as though I was any great shakes). But when the bozos outnumber the actual players, which I have seen, they then outnumber the punters and he barstaff...
'Often, modesty is far more important than ability, to be honest.'
That is spot on Zina. Sessions here dont mind beginers at all...as long as they dont think they are amazing and take over tune sets and tweet etc etc.
My other favourite quote is 'am I able for this session'? I enjoy sitting back and listening to a cranking session much more than i enjoy participating in a messy 'Jam' session (which isnt often and only occurs by accident'.
I remember a similar discussion here a couple years back, and one of the points that came up from several people was, "Ask yourself whether your playing will add or detract from the overall sound. And then ask 'what can I contribute to this session?'"
You don't have to be brilliant to play in, even with other brilliant players. But you do have to listen--with an open, humble mind--if you want to be invited back.
Offline, glauber was quoting Harry Bradley as saying something similar about learning from listening to other players--how important it is to listen without judging them. Accept their playing as it is, and take from it what you want to improve your own playing.
I think a session works along the same lines--it's not a matter of walking in the door and classifying the pace, tune selection, intonation, craic, etc., as beginner, intermediate, or advanced, and then deciding whether to join in. No, it's more about listening to get a sense of what the circle is trying to do--is this an easy-going group of friends catching up after a long week, or a pack of tune hounds chasing the fox, or a band rehearsing for next week's gig? Are they already in the zone and flying, or are they casting about, nonchalantly waiting for the nyah to appear? Do they have a cohesive, group sound, or is this a constellation of hot stars, each thousands of lightyears apart from the next when it comes to phrasing, timing, and pace? Depending on what you hear, you can then make an informed choice about sitting in--do you want to? Will they welcome you? What can you bring to *their* circle?
Glad to see I played it right before Christmas then! Went along to a local session in a lovely place called the Old Mill (a renovated mill, open fire, candlelight etc etc, great place for a session). Although the players know I'm a beginner they've been insistent that I bring my instrument along the next time to join in on a few. Brought my tape recorder (and asked permission!) so will delay a while by learning some of their tunes first and at least then when I feel brave enough to bring my fiddle, I'll know I can play some of their sets respectably although a bit slower. It was brilliant to find a session so close to home that is welcoming to beginners like me. Very encouraging.
Even a complete and utter beginner is fine by me. But the'd better get better pretty smartish or they'd be outstaying their welcome.
In other words, I don't mind people who can't play, as long as they've not been able to play for long.
We've had similar discusions before but it, basically, all depends on the particular session and having the right attitude. I've spoken to some players who believe that you should be an accomplished musician before coming anywhere near a session. Even if you accept this extreme view, everybody has to make a start somewhere and there will always have to be some sort of learning process no matter how good you are. I would suggest that if you know a fairly good part of the repertoire and can attempt to play it without disrupting the session or putting the other musicians off then it's probably ok to think about entering a session. Of course, good manners are essential-so always ask, and don't force yourself in a session where you're not welcome--you'll soon get the message!!! This isn't just a problem for beginners, though. No matter how good you get, you'll always find sessions where it's not appropriate to take part whether it be a much higher standard level of musicianship or a strange repertoire. I've been to some sessions where I've known every tune but there are others where I would be lucky to know one or two all night.
I don't necessarily agree that it's wrong to attempt a tune if you don't know it. After all, that's how many people learn new tunes and how they get "passed on". As long as you're fairly confident with your instrument and can play without disrupting the others, then that should be ok too.
On a lighter note, I notice that the "Learn to play Irish pipes in a day" workshop that Michael mentioned is now sold out. They could all be coming to a session near you! :>))
At our regular session we have a policy of everyone is welcome which is good and bad. Some weeks we have a great crew and everything knits together nicely. If a new face appears with an instrument we welcome them, make a place and usually ask them to start a tune. Most of them know not to mess the session up or take it over - mistakes I think as beginners we tend to make - I know I did! However on other weeks like last Saturday night we ended up with a huge crowd. WE had 3 bodhrans one of whom was playing all manner of shaky things and had all forms of instruments in a big bag. Mind you, he was good and did two solos!!! Then we had the resident elder stately gentleman who is deaf and bangs away with no regard to the timing of the tune and anothe quite nice player who was drowned out. Towards the end of the night we had some people banging bottles with coins (a pet hate of mine) and I thought this was the pits. We had 3 five string banjos - sorry lads but I don't think they have a place in ITM. It would have been okay if they just played their own bluegrass sets but they insisted on plugging away when we ITMusicians played our sets. They we had a guitar. In that the crowd there were some very good musicians but it was impossible to hear each other. Very annoying and frustrating.
So I don't know if "open" is necessarily the best thing. Having suffered myself at feeling excluded I am always very welcoming to newcomers and usually its great but there is the odd night from hell!!
Sometimes, I actually get to feeling confident. That I have a place at a session. That since I am well behaved and polite I will be welcomed.
Then I read a thread like this, excellent as it is and all the old ghosts come back to haunt me. "You are nowhere near ready to play out yet." "What could you, a mediorce at best fiddler even possibly add to our circle?" "Your (small) harp is way too big and your harp case is annoying and taking up too much room under the table." "I really wish you had sat way over there instead of next to me, since now I feel obligated to accomodate your sorry a$$ with playing tunes tons more slowly than I would normally."
My dream is to rock out with the big boys (and girls), but my own fears hold me back so much. Maybe I should just start my own slow session instead.
My lot's quite friendly, but I don't know anybody very well. I try to keep quiet and not get in anyone's way. As a result, I'm a very backgroundy wallflower type of figure.
That all changed last week when the mancunian barman at the pub we play at, who I know quite well and get along with famously, but who doesn't know the other musicians at all, comes over between sets, interrupts everyone else's post-tune converstation by pointing at me and saying at the top of voice, "this one here's cr*p! I was listening just now and he didn't play a note in the right place! He's just here for the free guinness!".
Everyone turns to look at me, as if for the first time. No one laughs. I've gone beetroot and shrunk into my chair (because, let's face it, it's true!). Richard the barman looks around at the blank faces, then looks at me, says "oops," and disappears, leaving me alone with the scaries.
heh. But after that bit of discomfort, the dynamic improved significantly. Nothing like a bit of ritual humiliation to make you feel like one of the gang...
Its dead easy. If you can't transpose into F#, the other musicians don't want you to play.
If they others keep speeding up and slowing down or playing in 5/2, put the goatskin back in its bag.
If you are struggling to play a waltz, sit back and listen.
Entry level doesn't always come into it. I start the evening with a slow session for the beginners, but the more able youngsters turn up as well, as they are the ones who are multi-instrumentalist and are always trying new instruments.
I prefer a session where I am the worst player in the room, and if I can't join in, then theres a lot to learn so listen hard and watch. There is nothing to gain from being the best player in the room unless you get a kick out of helping the others.
I went to a "closed session" last year and stopped in the bar as I was not made welcome. My box stopped nearby and whenever a tune came up that I liked, I sneaked back into the room for a tune then snook back out. They didn't get rid of me that easily.
Leitrim Lady, I think you have to accept that sessions can vary enormously in quality if they going to be open and if they take place in an area where there are enough 'passing musicians'. But the chance to play spontaneously with new people is the one thing that makes sessions a unique forum for making music, so I reckon it's worth the odd duff session. I'd have those 5 string banjo players slung out and strung up though!
I laughed so hard at Q's story, now I have to mop up my coffee. I think the vibes I've had from a few people in these parts match Zina's "Used to be that you simply didn't play out until you were ready to play out."
Got to be careful what you do around here because there's not a lot of ITM sessions to choose from. However there are some very welcoming learner groups, albeit with added colour such as autoharps and bluegrass mandolin chops.
Andee, bear in mind that at many sessions, what you contribute doesn't have to be musical brilliance. Even "mediocre" players can enliven a sesh by launching a tune that no one else would've thought to play (but everyone loves), or injecting some humor (or just friendliness) into the evening, or providing a different 'voice' in a sea of the same instruments. I've sat in a circle of four fiddles and one beginner whistle, and gone out of my way to ask the whistle to start a tune, just to hear something other than whiny strings. Also, sometimes even veteran players appreciate the support of one other player who knows a tune no one else does--something you would not deign to haul out as a solo, but ends up making a nice piece as a duet, even if the other player isn't Frankie Gavin . This happens at our local session fairly frequently, actually.
Again, for me it's not so much about the skill level someone else brings to the session, but their ability to find some way to add to the fun. Sure, I really enjoy getting in the groove with great players, but it's also fun to help someone else experience that, maybe for the first time, on their way to becoming a better player themselves.
*grin* Andee, when I first started going out to sessions, I e-mailed Shannon and whined that it didn't matter how many tunes I knew, it didn't matter how well I played them, there were always so many more tunes to learn and I never played them good enough. She wrote me back almost immediately, saying, "Welcome to my world!"
Other than that rather dicey period everyone goes through when they get past beginner but not quite intermediate level when they think they're pretty hot sh*t and know everything there is to know about this stuff (this is usually followed by what I've taken to calling The Big Thump of Reality), we all have to struggle with the exact same things. All of us, at every level (but the Hot Sh*t one, which sometimes I think we do out of sheer defensiveness). Will. Me. Shannon. John Williams. Everybody. Why d'you think all of the best players I know personally will tell you that they're still beginners? Even Kevin Burke told me that!
Anyway, keep playing out. But definitely start that slow session, chick. I can't tell you how much that kicked me into gear. Shannon was always intoning, "play slow to play fast, play slow to play fast" and I believed her, I really did, and I really did think I was doing it, but when the Heatons left and lobbed the responsibility of the tune learning session into my and Dirk's laps (so that we were now FORCED to play at beginner speeds every week for two hours), people were saying things to me like, "why are you playing so slow?" A very short time later, the same people were saying things like "how did you get so good so fast?" Generally they were the same people who refused to play slowly.
Needless to say, I now look upon that two hours of playing slowly as a gift from heaven.
So you start that slow session, Andee, and you knock the collective socks off that fast playing group in the near future.
Ottery
you're quite right - its all a matter or luck. Sometimes at our Saturday night session it starts off very quietly with just the resident fluter player, then the door opens and just about anyone can arrive and that's part of the thrill of the evening and sometimes it just gels and we have a wonderful session but not on five stringed banjo nights! Sorry but I guess I'm biased.
Ditto on the slow sesh idea. Playing s-l-o-w does wonders for your control (especially on fiddle), timing, and understanding of the tune, and doing it while leading a bunch of other players forces you to take responsibility for every note, every phrase. Amazing what that will do for your competence and confidence at a full-speed session.
Not to say anything of the fact you're doing it on the harp, Andee. Harp is NOT a natural instrument to play tunes on. Beth Leachman likes coming to the slow session because it gives her time to figure out the fingering on her harp even though she can pick up the tunes in her tune as fast as anyone else.
Andee
one of the nicest sessions I was at during the Joe Mooney summer school last summer was during the afternoon. There was a fluter player (American lady), mandolin (English guy). 2 fiddles (Chinese). I walked in and listened for a while, it was fairly slow but nicely paced and I couldn't resist asking could I join in. They made me very welcome and we played some lovely sets at my favourite pace (slowish) and chatted away and had a lovely afternoon that is until a local group of musicians, boxes, bodhrans, flutes etc. arrived in and set up almost beside us but separately and proceeded to blow us out of it. I wasn't surprised as I know them and they are fairly macho but the visitors were horrified at the rudeness of the whole thing. Anyway, my point is Andee that I heard all levels of music that week and played in loads of sessions but that was the nicest, most relaxed and enjoyable one. So don't worry about the speed. You'll get there eventually
But Andee plays fiddle too, eh? Which is what she's on about being up to snuff at the local session. I think. Unless I'm having another senior moment....
Hey thanks for your input Zina, Will, and Leitrim Lady!
Yes, I am more accomplished on the harp.
I was in a really black mood today, hence my previous post, and the rest of the day went kinda blackish, too. But yes Zina I will continue to play out despite the fears and the old ghosts. And I so understand what you said about playing slow to play fast, but a reminder here and there is just what I need, so thanks.
I totally know what you mean about that hot sh*t phase when you are past being a pure beginner, but really only just entering intermediate.
I have played with the idea of starting a slow session before. I just may do it. I'll let you all know if I do.
Entry Level
Entry Level
I'd be interested to hear what standard of playing those of you who are involved in regular open sessions require (whether stated or not) of new session members. I suppose by "standard" I mean knowledge of tunes, ability to apply variations & ornamentation, and speed.
I remember asking one session leader, who told me I would need to be able to keep up with the Bothy Band -- I won't be going to that one for a while (or maybe ever.) Maybe it was her polite way of saying the session wasn't "open." ...
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by grego
Re: Entry Level
We require all those playing in our session to have reached ay least level 14B+ in any of the usual session board exams.
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by rog
Re: Entry Level
I don't think it's a question of standard, more of attitude. If you only know Planxty Irwin, then there's no problem having you in the session, provided you don't try to fake your way through fast tunes and mess them up for everyone. And at some point in the proceedings we could play Planxty Irwin. People who are disruptive(unwelcome?) at sessions tend not to be people of a different level, as much as people, who might even be more accomplished than the core of the session, who don't use their ears enough.
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Entry Level
How long is a piece of string? LOL
I hope I don't "require" anything out of new session attendees but good manners, and hope that I return the same. Now, whether their abilities are up to some spoken or unspoken standard...well, that's a whole 'nother can of worms. Used to be that you simply didn't play out until you were ready to play out. That's changed quite a bit these days.
I've been to a couple of sessions that I was told that I needed to be an "expert" player to really be welcome, and when I got there to listen (and I was taught that all beginning players should head out to their local sessions sans instruments so they can listen while getting themselves ready to play out), discovered that I should have brought the thing but was now not sure I'd enjoy playing with that group of musos at all due to one thing or another.
I've been to a couple of sessions where they told me to bring my fiddle and to play no matter what my level and in fact encouraged me to play all through the thing with me uncomfortably knowing that if I did I'd be lowering the tone by an unforgiveable amount. (best to play along on a few tunes -- very very quietly -- to show willing and then put the fiddle down on the table and enjoy the music and talk and drink and had a good time that way.)
Speaking really, really frankly, I suppose what I look for most from someone I'm sizing up at a session is knowledge and manners. Do they know and realize that they are a beginner and behave as such rather than trying to come over as someone more experienced? Do they twiddle and noodle when they don't know tunes? (ie: are they a Tweety?) Do they refer to Irish music and sessions as "Celtic" and a "jam"? (danger! danger, Will Robinson!) Do they ask the right questions? Did they bring a tape recorder? Often, modesty is far more important than ability, to be honest.
Personally, I think it's a mistake to think that, for instance, "speed=quality". The Kelly's session, as an example, was known for it's slower ("stately" I think is what Ciaran Carson called it) speed, but if I'd gone I think I'd have to think veeeeery carefully if I was up to the standard of that one. And once you get around to the sessions, you quickly realize that if you learned all your tunes at one session, it doesn't mean you're prepared for another even the next street over, so any serious session muso is going to not take marks off some mental list for a muso who doesn't know the tunes you play at yours.
I'll almost always be sure to start up a couple of tunes that I know the newbie knows (although if they're a beginner, I'll usually ask them to start the tune so I know how fast they'll play it before I come in with them -- and generally I find out what they know by simply asking them what tunes they know), but that's occasionally gotten me a couple of crossed eyes from session leaders. Still, it's worth it -- being able to play a tune with everyone at a session can make a beginner feel like a million bucks for two days. (And if the rest of the session isn't willing to play a tune a bit slowly to accomodate a newbie, because all of us remember that feeling or should, then damn right I'll take ticks off my opinion of *them*.)
Still, you can't go playing slow and only tunes a new member might know all night.
Keeping in mind that I consider myself only an intermediate player, no expert at all. So feel free to discount any of the above. Heh.
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Entry Level
Out of interest, Zina, what would someone having (or not having) a tape recorder signify to you? (writing as one who has toyed with the idea of bringing a minidisc recorder to some sessions to take home some of the tunes, but never do, 'cos it always seems like a bit of an imposition).
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by rog
Re: Entry Level
It depends on what they already know, but if they're a beginner, then it shows that they are eager (or at least willing) to learn the tunes we play at our sessions, the way that we play them (using our settings, I mean, overall). People who can pick tunes up on the fly, of course, may not bother to bring a recorder with them.
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Entry Level
We have at least two and often three sessions a week, we have a standard which one has to reach that is to play the Tourmore Polkas without stopping after consuming one gallon of Murphys Stout attain this and you are in for life. The speed does not really matter in fact speed destroys good music its the rythem that counts.
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by Northcregg
Re: Entry Level
yes, i'd echo zina's thoughts. if you are a regular at a session and recognized as beginner, it'd be no problemo to bust out a md recorder. would probably be expected, and appreciated if results in you learning tunes common to that session. however, would not hurt to aks the sesh leader to ask permission if it's not obviously okay.
it's another story if you drop in on an unknown session; becomes touchy especially if there are recognized 'bigs' at a session who don't know you and/or might be touchy if not p*ssed off if you dropped your recorder into the session unannounced.
however, i think there is a general exception to this etiquette at a fleadh/festival where sessions pop up spontaneiously. i'd generally have no qualms recording pretty much anything in such circumstances. it's a free-for-all. although never hurts to err on the side of respectfull...
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by Brendan
Re: Entry Level
I'm not sure I'd keep *breathing* after a gallon of Murphys... LOL
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Entry Level
My impression has been around here that "open" sessions often eventually die because they are overrun by beginners. More advanced players stop coming as the quality drops, etc. It's a real concern for people who want a quality, challenging session and I don't think anyone has come up with a solution that doesn't offfend some subsection of the population.
I'd guess the best thing to do (as a beginner at a new session) would be to be aware of this potential problem and ask someone in that context. We don't have to read minds or guess what a specific situation is about; just ask!
Beginners who know they're beginners are rare and loved creatures.
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by glenn
Re: Entry Level
Good stuff here. Zina's on a roll of late, nailing the *truth* with every post.
I can't think of anything to add 'cept maybe our local experience....
Our session has plenty of newcomers to the music and/or their chosen instruments, but they have great attitudes. Most will give a fair go on tunes that they know, but if they're not so sure, then they play so quietly that it doesn't distract, or they just listen. We encourage mds and tape recorders, and as a memory aid and cross-reference, we supply tunebooks with basic settings of many of our tunes so people can work stuff up at home. We also hold a monthly tune learning session to swap tunes and help bring people up to speed.
Now, our situation is different than those of you living where the tradition breathes and eats. Here in Montana, if we didn't welcome newbies, our session would be a thin affair. At the same time, there are so few people at all in this backwater, we're not likely to get overrun with 20 wannabe fiddlers and 13 piano accordians, as I hear tell about in other locales. So our session works (I think)--a core of 4 to 6 strong players keep the tunes cranking and the general quality high, while welcoming newbies and gently fending off the infrequent total plonker.
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Entry Level
Ah yes, that elusive beast...The Truth...it is of course more like trying to nail jello to a tree. *sigh* Guess I'd better go upstairs and neaten up a little, band rehearsal in a few minutes and I have nothing to feed them with, so I guess it's pizza for us...
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Entry Level
Grego, I'm answering your question from the opposite side of the equation as someone who recently started session-ing - the only real requirement here seemed to be, as said above, a knowledge of how *not* to mess up the evening for everyone else.
I can play my better jigs at the session speed on a good night but can only *just* hang in there with one or two reels at speed and it’s not real pretty. I'm still at the stage with fiddle where nothing goes as well at the session as in the lounge room but that's as I expected, been-there-done-that before. So mostly I listen and when asked, will start the odd tune at my pace but I don't jump in without an invitation. I also took care to check out things like seating protocol. So I don’t contribute much, except perhaps to the craic and occasionally with a tune choice, but I try not to detract from the session either. It seems to work out in both directions.
(Heh, Zina, your comment re “expert” players reminds me of experiences as a workshop convenor in a previous existence. People I knew well as – at best - lower intermediates would frequently try to enrol in classes way above their competence, sometimes to avoid the beginners, but sometimes because they really considered themselves advanced because they’d been playing for years. It just moved the frustration they were trying to escape further up the food chain and inflicted it on semi-professionals and tertiary performance students instead. I’ve been suspicious of self-proclaimed “expert” or “advanced” players ever since. For a session leader to say “expert players only” to keep the hordes away in self defence would be understandable, but saying “closed” or “by invitation only” sets an objective threshold rather than a subjective one, and is more honest and foolproof. It also wouldn’t seem like unwarranted airs and graces were being put on if it were later discovered that the standard wasn’t exactly [insert famous group name here] after all. My tuppence-worth on that one, though personally I prefer knowing exactly where I stand to second-guessing and woolly admission criteria and other folks may well find my preferences a little too blunt.)
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by Tish
Re: Entry Level
We ask 3 questions:
1. Can you sit without assistance?
2. Do you have any money?
3. Do you play a bodhran?
We allow you in if you answer yes to 1 & 2, and no to 3.
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by Conway
Re: Entry Level
Well, I'm Mr. "yes and no" on this one. Firstly, I like to see new faces/new converts coming along to sesh's. But they need to be able to add *something*, albeit a drop in the bath (nearly said ocean, but feeling realistic tonight) especially when the welfare of the session depends on the patronage of the landlord, either in hard cash or hard drinks.
I believe, and I've been told....
(unless **They** are lying to me!! - I'm not paranoid, honest! - just don't tell **Them**)...
... that I'm quite welcoming to new folks at sessions. Believe it or not as you choose to assess my e-persona, I'm merely reporting. But, I have to say, quite openly, explicitly, I have my no-no's:
Thumper bodhran players.
Rainsticks, eggs, spoons (unless they're good), didgeridoos (actually, that's not true either - I brought one back from Oz a couple of years ago, but unless someone could do the circular breathing in D at the appropriate moments of a slow air or maybe a slip jig, forget it.)
People who bring along whistles, low whistles, jeez, anything really, who haven't a bloody clue. They don't practice, they care not for the fabric and fine tuning of the session, only that they be included within its numbers. Their wish (and concommitant fulfilment) to be thus included provides an elevation of status from the other personnae in the (eg) pub. OK, so long as they don't think they're at the same level as someone who has spent *slightly* more time playing....
Right - no more Mr Nasty Guy (as though I was any great shakes). But when the bozos outnumber the actual players, which I have seen, they then outnumber the punters and he barstaff...
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by Rudall the time
Re: Entry Level
'Often, modesty is far more important than ability, to be honest.'
That is spot on Zina. Sessions here dont mind beginers at all...as long as they dont think they are amazing and take over tune sets and tweet etc etc.
My other favourite quote is 'am I able for this session'? I enjoy sitting back and listening to a cranking session much more than i enjoy participating in a messy 'Jam' session (which isnt often and only occurs by accident'.
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by bb
Re: Entry Level
I remember a similar discussion here a couple years back, and one of the points that came up from several people was, "Ask yourself whether your playing will add or detract from the overall sound. And then ask 'what can I contribute to this session?'"
You don't have to be brilliant to play in, even with other brilliant players. But you do have to listen--with an open, humble mind--if you want to be invited back.
Offline, glauber was quoting Harry Bradley as saying something similar about learning from listening to other players--how important it is to listen without judging them. Accept their playing as it is, and take from it what you want to improve your own playing.
I think a session works along the same lines--it's not a matter of walking in the door and classifying the pace, tune selection, intonation, craic, etc., as beginner, intermediate, or advanced, and then deciding whether to join in. No, it's more about listening to get a sense of what the circle is trying to do--is this an easy-going group of friends catching up after a long week, or a pack of tune hounds chasing the fox, or a band rehearsing for next week's gig? Are they already in the zone and flying, or are they casting about, nonchalantly waiting for the nyah to appear? Do they have a cohesive, group sound, or is this a constellation of hot stars, each thousands of lightyears apart from the next when it comes to phrasing, timing, and pace? Depending on what you hear, you can then make an informed choice about sitting in--do you want to? Will they welcome you? What can you bring to *their* circle?
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Entry Level
Glad to see I played it right before Christmas then! Went along to a local session in a lovely place called the Old Mill (a renovated mill, open fire, candlelight etc etc, great place for a session). Although the players know I'm a beginner they've been insistent that I bring my instrument along the next time to join in on a few. Brought my tape recorder (and asked permission!) so will delay a while by learning some of their tunes first and at least then when I feel brave enough to bring my fiddle, I'll know I can play some of their sets respectably although a bit slower. It was brilliant to find a session so close to home that is welcoming to beginners like me. Very encouraging.
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by DG
Re: Entry Level
Even a complete and utter beginner is fine by me. But the'd better get better pretty smartish or they'd be outstaying their welcome.
In other words, I don't mind people who can't play, as long as they've not been able to play for long.
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by llig leahcim
Re: Entry Level
We've had similar discusions before but it, basically, all depends on the particular session and having the right attitude. I've spoken to some players who believe that you should be an accomplished musician before coming anywhere near a session. Even if you accept this extreme view, everybody has to make a start somewhere and there will always have to be some sort of learning process no matter how good you are. I would suggest that if you know a fairly good part of the repertoire and can attempt to play it without disrupting the session or putting the other musicians off then it's probably ok to think about entering a session. Of course, good manners are essential-so always ask, and don't force yourself in a session where you're not welcome--you'll soon get the message!!! This isn't just a problem for beginners, though. No matter how good you get, you'll always find sessions where it's not appropriate to take part whether it be a much higher standard level of musicianship or a strange repertoire. I've been to some sessions where I've known every tune but there are others where I would be lucky to know one or two all night.
I don't necessarily agree that it's wrong to attempt a tune if you don't know it. After all, that's how many people learn new tunes and how they get "passed on". As long as you're fairly confident with your instrument and can play without disrupting the others, then that should be ok too.
On a lighter note, I notice that the "Learn to play Irish pipes in a day" workshop that Michael mentioned is now sold out. They could all be coming to a session near you! :>))
John
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by John J.
Re: Entry Level
At our regular session we have a policy of everyone is welcome which is good and bad. Some weeks we have a great crew and everything knits together nicely. If a new face appears with an instrument we welcome them, make a place and usually ask them to start a tune. Most of them know not to mess the session up or take it over - mistakes I think as beginners we tend to make - I know I did! However on other weeks like last Saturday night we ended up with a huge crowd. WE had 3 bodhrans one of whom was playing all manner of shaky things and had all forms of instruments in a big bag. Mind you, he was good and did two solos!!! Then we had the resident elder stately gentleman who is deaf and bangs away with no regard to the timing of the tune and anothe quite nice player who was drowned out. Towards the end of the night we had some people banging bottles with coins (a pet hate of mine) and I thought this was the pits. We had 3 five string banjos - sorry lads but I don't think they have a place in ITM. It would have been okay if they just played their own bluegrass sets but they insisted on plugging away when we ITMusicians played our sets. They we had a guitar. In that the crowd there were some very good musicians but it was impossible to hear each other. Very annoying and frustrating.
So I don't know if "open" is necessarily the best thing. Having suffered myself at feeling excluded I am always very welcoming to newcomers and usually its great but there is the odd night from hell!!
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by MollyB
Re: Entry Level
Sometimes, I actually get to feeling confident. That I have a place at a session. That since I am well behaved and polite I will be welcomed.
Then I read a thread like this, excellent as it is and all the old ghosts come back to haunt me. "You are nowhere near ready to play out yet." "What could you, a mediorce at best fiddler even possibly add to our circle?" "Your (small) harp is way too big and your harp case is annoying and taking up too much room under the table." "I really wish you had sat way over there instead of next to me, since now I feel obligated to accomodate your sorry a$$ with playing tunes tons more slowly than I would normally."
My dream is to rock out with the big boys (and girls), but my own fears hold me back so much. Maybe I should just start my own slow session instead.
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by Andee
Re: Entry Level
My lot's quite friendly, but I don't know anybody very well. I try to keep quiet and not get in anyone's way. As a result, I'm a very backgroundy wallflower type of figure.
That all changed last week when the mancunian barman at the pub we play at, who I know quite well and get along with famously, but who doesn't know the other musicians at all, comes over between sets, interrupts everyone else's post-tune converstation by pointing at me and saying at the top of voice, "this one here's cr*p! I was listening just now and he didn't play a note in the right place! He's just here for the free guinness!".
Everyone turns to look at me, as if for the first time. No one laughs. I've gone beetroot and shrunk into my chair (because, let's face it, it's true!). Richard the barman looks around at the blank faces, then looks at me, says "oops," and disappears, leaving me alone with the scaries.
heh. But after that bit of discomfort, the dynamic improved significantly. Nothing like a bit of ritual humiliation to make you feel like one of the gang...
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by Q
Re: Entry Level
Its dead easy. If you can't transpose into F#, the other musicians don't want you to play.
If they others keep speeding up and slowing down or playing in 5/2, put the goatskin back in its bag.
If you are struggling to play a waltz, sit back and listen.
Entry level doesn't always come into it. I start the evening with a slow session for the beginners, but the more able youngsters turn up as well, as they are the ones who are multi-instrumentalist and are always trying new instruments.
I prefer a session where I am the worst player in the room, and if I can't join in, then theres a lot to learn so listen hard and watch. There is nothing to gain from being the best player in the room unless you get a kick out of helping the others.
I went to a "closed session" last year and stopped in the bar as I was not made welcome. My box stopped nearby and whenever a tune came up that I liked, I sneaked back into the room for a tune then snook back out. They didn't get rid of me that easily.
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by geoffwright
Re: Entry Level
Leitrim Lady, I think you have to accept that sessions can vary enormously in quality if they going to be open and if they take place in an area where there are enough 'passing musicians'. But the chance to play spontaneously with new people is the one thing that makes sessions a unique forum for making music, so I reckon it's worth the odd duff session. I'd have those 5 string banjo players slung out and strung up though!
# Posted on January 14th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Entry Level
I laughed so hard at Q's story, now I have to mop up my coffee. I think the vibes I've had from a few people in these parts match Zina's "Used to be that you simply didn't play out until you were ready to play out."
Got to be careful what you do around here because there's not a lot of ITM sessions to choose from. However there are some very welcoming learner groups, albeit with added colour such as autoharps and bluegrass mandolin chops.
# Posted on January 15th 2004 by grego
Re: Entry Level
Andee, bear in mind that at many sessions, what you contribute doesn't have to be musical brilliance. Even "mediocre" players can enliven a sesh by launching a tune that no one else would've thought to play (but everyone loves), or injecting some humor (or just friendliness) into the evening, or providing a different 'voice' in a sea of the same instruments. I've sat in a circle of four fiddles and one beginner whistle, and gone out of my way to ask the whistle to start a tune, just to hear something other than whiny strings. Also, sometimes even veteran players appreciate the support of one other player who knows a tune no one else does--something you would not deign to haul out as a solo, but ends up making a nice piece as a duet, even if the other player isn't Frankie Gavin
. This happens at our local session fairly frequently, actually.
Again, for me it's not so much about the skill level someone else brings to the session, but their ability to find some way to add to the fun. Sure, I really enjoy getting in the groove with great players, but it's also fun to help someone else experience that, maybe for the first time, on their way to becoming a better player themselves.
# Posted on January 15th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Entry Level
*grin* Andee, when I first started going out to sessions, I e-mailed Shannon and whined that it didn't matter how many tunes I knew, it didn't matter how well I played them, there were always so many more tunes to learn and I never played them good enough. She wrote me back almost immediately, saying, "Welcome to my world!"
Other than that rather dicey period everyone goes through when they get past beginner but not quite intermediate level when they think they're pretty hot sh*t and know everything there is to know about this stuff (this is usually followed by what I've taken to calling The Big Thump of Reality), we all have to struggle with the exact same things. All of us, at every level (but the Hot Sh*t one, which sometimes I think we do out of sheer defensiveness). Will. Me. Shannon. John Williams. Everybody. Why d'you think all of the best players I know personally will tell you that they're still beginners? Even Kevin Burke told me that!
Anyway, keep playing out. But definitely start that slow session, chick. I can't tell you how much that kicked me into gear. Shannon was always intoning, "play slow to play fast, play slow to play fast" and I believed her, I really did, and I really did think I was doing it, but when the Heatons left and lobbed the responsibility of the tune learning session into my and Dirk's laps (so that we were now FORCED to play at beginner speeds every week for two hours), people were saying things to me like, "why are you playing so slow?" A very short time later, the same people were saying things like "how did you get so good so fast?" Generally they were the same people who refused to play slowly.
Needless to say, I now look upon that two hours of playing slowly as a gift from heaven.
So you start that slow session, Andee, and you knock the collective socks off that fast playing group in the near future.
# Posted on January 15th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Entry Level
Ottery
you're quite right - its all a matter or luck. Sometimes at our Saturday night session it starts off very quietly with just the resident fluter player, then the door opens and just about anyone can arrive and that's part of the thrill of the evening and sometimes it just gels and we have a wonderful session but not on five stringed banjo nights! Sorry but I guess I'm biased.
# Posted on January 15th 2004 by MollyB
Re: Entry Level
Ditto on the slow sesh idea. Playing s-l-o-w does wonders for your control (especially on fiddle), timing, and understanding of the tune, and doing it while leading a bunch of other players forces you to take responsibility for every note, every phrase. Amazing what that will do for your competence and confidence at a full-speed session.
# Posted on January 15th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Entry Level
Not to say anything of the fact you're doing it on the harp, Andee. Harp is NOT a natural instrument to play tunes on. Beth Leachman likes coming to the slow session because it gives her time to figure out the fingering on her harp even though she can pick up the tunes in her tune as fast as anyone else.
# Posted on January 15th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Entry Level
Andee
one of the nicest sessions I was at during the Joe Mooney summer school last summer was during the afternoon. There was a fluter player (American lady), mandolin (English guy). 2 fiddles (Chinese). I walked in and listened for a while, it was fairly slow but nicely paced and I couldn't resist asking could I join in. They made me very welcome and we played some lovely sets at my favourite pace (slowish) and chatted away and had a lovely afternoon that is until a local group of musicians, boxes, bodhrans, flutes etc. arrived in and set up almost beside us but separately and proceeded to blow us out of it. I wasn't surprised as I know them and they are fairly macho but the visitors were horrified at the rudeness of the whole thing. Anyway, my point is Andee that I heard all levels of music that week and played in loads of sessions but that was the nicest, most relaxed and enjoyable one. So don't worry about the speed. You'll get there eventually
# Posted on January 15th 2004 by MollyB
Errata
Oops. "pick up the tunes in her HEAD" I meant.
# Posted on January 15th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Entry Level
But Andee plays fiddle too, eh? Which is what she's on about being up to snuff at the local session. I think. Unless I'm having another senior moment....
# Posted on January 15th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Entry Level
Er...It's both, isn't it, Andee?
# Posted on January 15th 2004 by Zina Lee
Re: Entry Level
Yes, both, but she's more accomplished on harp?
# Posted on January 15th 2004 by Will Harmon
Re: Entry Level
So, LL, when's your next fluter's ball? Are we all invited?
# Posted on January 15th 2004 by Ottery
Re: Entry Level
Hey thanks for your input Zina, Will, and Leitrim Lady!
Yes, I am more accomplished on the harp.
I was in a really black mood today, hence my previous post, and the rest of the day went kinda blackish, too. But yes Zina I will continue to play out despite the fears and the old ghosts. And I so understand what you said about playing slow to play fast, but a reminder here and there is just what I need, so thanks.
I totally know what you mean about that hot sh*t phase when you are past being a pure beginner, but really only just entering intermediate.
I have played with the idea of starting a slow session before. I just may do it. I'll let you all know if I do.
# Posted on January 15th 2004 by Andee