I'd appreciate a little help from flute/whistle players about the following question.
I understand that the flute and whistle range is usually two octaves. From messing around with a whistle I've noticed it's possible to get a third octave, I presume the same is true of the flute.
Is this third octave ever used in trad? I know it's quite shrill but it sometimes sounds to me like some players push into this third octave to bring out certain notes. Is that correct?
Some people try it on their whistles, but it's a bloody racket, way way way too loud.
The flute's a different matter though. You can control the volume and tone with your lips and breath. Listen to Matt Molloy going for it brilliantly on "Heathery Breeze"
I use it on flute for some tunes, usually just for the D. If you've got a well-made flute and you have good control of your embouchure, it won't sound shrill.
I agree that it can be a bit much on the whistle even if it's an experienced player.
Flute third octave is used rarely, and mostly limited to ornaments. Brian Finnegan gave us a nifty ornament with a high F# in a workshop I attended. You can play perfectly good trad flute never going above high C, though. Only gimmick tunes like The Mathematician have the actual melody up into the third octave.
Pass out earplugs to your sessionmates before attempting third octave notes on whistle.
Going to high D is no big deal on the flute and does not have
the screetch you get with the whistle. E and F# are doable but
take more of a commitment from the chops and diaphragm.
Popping them out with a quick burst of air isn't too hard but
sustaining on a simple flute ... a different story
American fife players use that third octave, but that is probably a leftover from the days when they needed to be heard while marching into battle.
Regular session playing only goes to high B, which is plenty high enough. Just got this question from a whistle player the other day, and it made me flinch, thinking of a beginner trying to hit those notes.
Up to high G is no problem, whether on sustained notes or not, if you use the right fingering. I'm OK on G# but I start to struggle with the top A. As Llig and Al imply, the top octave is not needed in trad, but I don't know whether the top players use it or not - can't remember. When I listen to some of those guys, I'm usually so carried away with their playing that I wouldn't particularly take note of things like that.
Whistle has a third octave, but please, please don't use it.
The Flute has a third octave -on my two wooden flutes (McGee GLP and Windward) I can get to Bflat in the third octave with not too much pain. I have not found a working third octave FNatural on the keyless flute. Everything else can be found with a variety of fingerings and in some cases a bit of lipping to get the note in tune.
I would not pull them out in a session though unless I was playing a "gimmick" tune as ElaineT said. In solo playing though, they have a very legitimate role.
I posted the fingerings that work for me on these flutes on Chiff and Fipple a while ago if anyone is interested. I worked them out together with Rod Garnett at Boxwood a couple of years ago. He had a whole load of possible fingerings that he knew and we tried them out to find which ones worked for me on my flutes.
A nice example is the G X0X 000 on the GLP or Xo0X XXX on the Windward with thumbhole. D is of course 0XX 000. With the Csharp at the bottom of the third octave there was a lot of difference inthe two flutes! 0oXX X00 on the Windward and CKey+ 000 XX0 + Eb key on the GLP...
I believe there is a style of music (South American somewhere?) where these flutes (i.e. old, simple system) get used to play well up in the third octave most of the time. Someone else wuld have to tell you more about that though.
It takes a long time to learn how to use the upper level of the flute.
I think, this is where flute and whistle differ, from a melody playing standpoint.
The flute can approach and sound upper notes like e'', f#'' ,and g'', with a modicum of grace.
The whistle is best left to the bottom two ranges.
I seldom venture into the third octave on my flute. In "Gweedore Bridge" for ex. I manage a high "c" there in the B part. Otherwise the two octaves suffice for the most part I find.
If you wander back to this thread, Crackpot, I'd appreciate a link to your fingering chart. Sounds like fun to experiment with in the privacy of my home.
Most whistles can get 3rd octave d, e and f# without too much bother. The best I've found for this is the Burke.
With whistles that have been adjusted for good 1st octave performance, the 3'rd octave can become quite difficult - particularly if there's been adjustment to emphasise the bell note. After the F#, things start becoming arcane with diferent fingerings acheiving the note in different registers - for instance, the 3'rd register is rarely used except in tabor pipes:
try your whistle to play octave 2 this way:
(register #2-
where # is where a tabor pipe does NOT have a hole.)
### XXX (d)
### XXO (e)
### XOO (f#)
### OOO (g)
(register #3)
### XXX (a)
### XXO (b)
### XOO (c#)
### OOO (d3)
##O OOO (e3)
#OO OOO (f#3)
OOX XXX (g3)
OR on the 4th register:
OXX XXX (d3)
XXX XXO (e3)
XXX XOX (f#3)
XXX OXX (g3)
XXO XXX (a3)
XOX XXX (b3)
This is how it plays on a Feadog, - different whistles will favor one or other between reg 3 and reg 4. The predominance in one register or another will have a lot of baring on the timbre of the whistle. Wider bore whistles have more difficulty in the 3r'd octave.
Flute/Whistle range question
Flute/Whistle range question
I'd appreciate a little help from flute/whistle players about the following question.
I understand that the flute and whistle range is usually two octaves. From messing around with a whistle I've noticed it's possible to get a third octave, I presume the same is true of the flute.
Is this third octave ever used in trad? I know it's quite shrill but it sometimes sounds to me like some players push into this third octave to bring out certain notes. Is that correct?
Thanks for your help
# Posted on September 1st 2010 by The Tune Composer
Re: Flute/Whistle range question
Some people try it on their whistles, but it's a bloody racket, way way way too loud.
The flute's a different matter though. You can control the volume and tone with your lips and breath. Listen to Matt Molloy going for it brilliantly on "Heathery Breeze"
# Posted on September 1st 2010 by ...
Re: Flute/Whistle range question
I use it on flute for some tunes, usually just for the D. If you've got a well-made flute and you have good control of your embouchure, it won't sound shrill.
I agree that it can be a bit much on the whistle even if it's an experienced player.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by Glass of Beer
Re: Flute/Whistle range question
Flute third octave is used rarely, and mostly limited to ornaments. Brian Finnegan gave us a nifty ornament with a high F# in a workshop I attended. You can play perfectly good trad flute never going above high C, though. Only gimmick tunes like The Mathematician have the actual melody up into the third octave.
Pass out earplugs to your sessionmates before attempting third octave notes on whistle.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by ElaineT
Re: Flute/Whistle range question
You can play perfectly good trad flute never going above high B.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by ...
Re: Flute/Whistle range question
Glad you said that. I was beginning to feel inadequate...
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by Dragut Reis
Re: Flute/Whistle range question
Going to high D is no big deal on the flute and does not have
the screetch you get with the whistle. E and F# are doable but
take more of a commitment from the chops and diaphragm.
Popping them out with a quick burst of air isn't too hard but
sustaining on a simple flute ... a different story
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by Hup
Re: Flute/Whistle range question
let's not forget that going from low D to mid D to that high D is a span of two octaves, not three, although it's three Ds you play.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Flute/Whistle range question
American fife players use that third octave, but that is probably a leftover from the days when they needed to be heard while marching into battle.
Regular session playing only goes to high B, which is plenty high enough. Just got this question from a whistle player the other day, and it made me flinch, thinking of a beginner trying to hit those notes.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Flute/Whistle range question
Up to high G is no problem, whether on sustained notes or not, if you use the right fingering. I'm OK on G# but I start to struggle with the top A. As Llig and Al imply, the top octave is not needed in trad, but I don't know whether the top players use it or not - can't remember. When I listen to some of those guys, I'm usually so carried away with their playing that I wouldn't particularly take note of things like that.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Flute/Whistle range question
Ooh ... forgot to say - I was only talking about flute. Whistle - I wouldn't bother above high D.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Flute/Whistle range question
Whistle has a third octave, but please, please don't use it.
The Flute has a third octave -on my two wooden flutes (McGee GLP and Windward) I can get to Bflat in the third octave with not too much pain. I have not found a working third octave FNatural on the keyless flute. Everything else can be found with a variety of fingerings and in some cases a bit of lipping to get the note in tune.
I would not pull them out in a session though unless I was playing a "gimmick" tune as ElaineT said. In solo playing though, they have a very legitimate role.
I posted the fingerings that work for me on these flutes on Chiff and Fipple a while ago if anyone is interested. I worked them out together with Rod Garnett at Boxwood a couple of years ago. He had a whole load of possible fingerings that he knew and we tried them out to find which ones worked for me on my flutes.
A nice example is the G X0X 000 on the GLP or Xo0X XXX on the Windward with thumbhole. D is of course 0XX 000. With the Csharp at the bottom of the third octave there was a lot of difference inthe two flutes! 0oXX X00 on the Windward and CKey+ 000 XX0 + Eb key on the GLP...
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by Crackpot
Re: Flute/Whistle range question
I believe there is a style of music (South American somewhere?) where these flutes (i.e. old, simple system) get used to play well up in the third octave most of the time. Someone else wuld have to tell you more about that though.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by Crackpot
Re: Flute/Whistle range question
Watch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uh--OYB5mNo
Read:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/196
It takes a long time to learn how to use the upper level of the flute.
I think, this is where flute and whistle differ, from a melody playing standpoint.
The flute can approach and sound upper notes like e'', f#'' ,and g'', with a modicum of grace.
The whistle is best left to the bottom two ranges.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by Toppish
Re: Flute/Whistle range question
i use c sharp, d and e in the 3rd octave. its good when your playing with a band and you can do a high solo.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by James Morgan
Re: Flute/Whistle range question
I seldom venture into the third octave on my flute. In "Gweedore Bridge" for ex. I manage a high "c" there in the B part. Otherwise the two octaves suffice for the most part I find.
# Posted on September 3rd 2010 by Steamwilkes
Re: Flute/Whistle range question
If you wander back to this thread, Crackpot, I'd appreciate a link to your fingering chart. Sounds like fun to experiment with in the privacy of my home.
# Posted on September 3rd 2010 by ElaineT
Re: Flute/Whistle range question
ElaineT - see pm...
# Posted on September 4th 2010 by Crackpot
Re: Flute/Whistle range question
James - do you mean that you use C# and D in the second octave and E in the third? Or the notes an octave above that?
# Posted on September 5th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Flute/Whistle range question
Most whistles can get 3rd octave d, e and f# without too much bother. The best I've found for this is the Burke.
With whistles that have been adjusted for good 1st octave performance, the 3'rd octave can become quite difficult - particularly if there's been adjustment to emphasise the bell note. After the F#, things start becoming arcane with diferent fingerings acheiving the note in different registers - for instance, the 3'rd register is rarely used except in tabor pipes:
try your whistle to play octave 2 this way:
(register #2-
where # is where a tabor pipe does NOT have a hole.)
### XXX (d)
### XXO (e)
### XOO (f#)
### OOO (g)
(register #3)
### XXX (a)
### XXO (b)
### XOO (c#)
### OOO (d3)
##O OOO (e3)
#OO OOO (f#3)
OOX XXX (g3)
OR on the 4th register:
OXX XXX (d3)
XXX XXO (e3)
XXX XOX (f#3)
XXX OXX (g3)
XXO XXX (a3)
XOX XXX (b3)
This is how it plays on a Feadog, - different whistles will favor one or other between reg 3 and reg 4. The predominance in one register or another will have a lot of baring on the timbre of the whistle. Wider bore whistles have more difficulty in the 3r'd octave.
# Posted on September 6th 2010 by Mozle