After several expensive equipment purchases and try outs I reckon we've found a great solution for small to moderate sized gigs (and brill for busking too!):
A Roland BA-330 and a Behringer 10 input mixer (I think it's the 1002B). Both run off the mains, or can be battery powered for the outdoor gigs with no mains access. We use the 5 xlr inputs with AKG C1000S condenser mics (that also run off 9v batteries) because they pick up so well without you having to be up real close so 2 people can share a mic. In time we'll get another BA-330 and have one each side linked in stereo. We use the 2 main xlr inputs on the Roland so we've got auto feedback squelch if we need it. It only gives out 30 watts but seems enough for most gigs we do. After all, the Beatles played Shea Stadium with only 35w amps! ;0)
We've got a Yamaha StagePass 300 too but it needs mains and a bit more setting up.
I've been wondering about that Roland amp - we have the smaller (cheaper) Roland cube, and it works really well for the one gig we play where we need a battery-powered amp. We're thinking about trying out the bagamp though:
50 watts will not be enough if the pub gets a little noisy.
Basically, too, watts aren't as important as efficiency... but this is hard to test. Generally, some speakers produce more dB per watt then others, this means that they will be louder.
A good, basic pub system should probably be around 250 watts plus. You can get good portable systems which include mixer amplifiers for a fairly good price. A lot of these fold up into a suitcase like package which generally aren't too heavy.
Check out the Fender Passport systems. They fold up nice and have a basic mixer. They are quite loud and produce a nice sound, very clear with good intelligibility.
If you're performing in pub like situations I don't see how mains power requirement is an issue.
I would recommend the Alto OEX400 set up for pub gigs and the like. No idea how many watts it is but the speakers and the thing with knobs on all clips together and one person can carry it in. It does the job!(and we have electric bass and drum kit)
To think that 30 years ago to supply as much sound reinforcement took a Trannie van full of nasty big heavy black boxes, roadie mixing desks, bloody great cables, ten tons of gaffa and the rest!
Bose L1 module without a doubt. Excellent sound and very portable. Our sound has been recieving great comments from audiences. We use a Soundcraft mixer with the Bose system. Keep away from Behringer mixers, I hear they are rubbish
Ditto on what cliffhanger says. We us Bose L1 and it works great in venues large and small. Quite pricey, but worth every penny because it can do it all. We use a Yamaha mixer after our primary Behringer mixer died after about a year (hint, hint). I will say the Behringer battery powered mixer we have has held up, but it does not have enough inputs for many of our gigs. We do not use it much any more.
Behringer is the Lada of the music world. In the world of sound engineers they have a saying........nae highs, nae lows it must be Bose. And that's not a compliment.
But to the question, someone said earlier that it's not the watts it's the efficiency, and that's dead on. If you want decent quality and you use mics on instruments don't consider anything less than 1000 watts unless it's D&B or something else stupidly expensive. If you are happy with that cliched crappy pub sound then by all means compromise.
PA run down:
JBL powered speakers
Roland powered cube monitors
Peavy passive P14 mains board
Peavy passive P8 monitor board
Behringer EQ, Feedback Supressor, Sonic exciter in small rack
It's compact, easy to run, fits large and small venues - and if you're a discerning shopper, not very costly.
As to the Behringer comments, it depends on the gear you're getting. I'd never buy an amp or powered mixer, but their effects units are well worth the money and in some cases better than any alternative for like gear in a shop.
For an all in one, however, the Bose is unsurpassed for small and mid-sized venues.
The premium system is one you don't have to own, tote, or set-up, run by someone who knows what they're doing, who you don't have to yell at, and when it's over, curse.
1000 watts in a pub, for a small acoustic combo ?
You CANNOT be SERIOUS !
What was the original request for ?
I reckon the first answer was spot-on, especially the second line.
PS; Hey, 1millionbc, is that Raquel Welch still with you ?
seems like know one really knows, nor do i, aint got a clue about PAs
nevertheless
without getting too technical, there are a few ways to measure wattage, the correct one being RMS-which can be about 1/3 of other ways of measuring it. so unless you know how the watts is measured, the figures dont mean alot.
i looked at the roland ba330 out of interest, and there is no way the true power output of this can be 30w (based on the supply voltage and current drawn) regardless of how you measure it.
behringer desks are fine, the preamps are a tiny bit noisy, but for crappy pub gigs this is irrelevant.
"You CANNOT be SERIOUS !" - is that right Pete?
I'm perfectly serious. As I said, and repeated by rudecyclist, you can't go on watts, but if you want sound quality with pub price PA's then 1000 watts in pretty reasonable. A trio I play with has a 1600 watt amp and two of these http://www.amazon.com/JBL-Lightweight-Two-Way-15-inch-450-Watt/dp/B001LTVDSM
......the line-up is two vocals, border pipes/whistle, fiddle and OM and when the pub is noisy the PA is struggling. If you don't have headroom on a pub PA you can't get the quality of sound that can be heard without being too loud.
drunkencyclist - a pub gig is only crappy if you make it crappy.
Coming late to this party, but let me put in a few words.
- Fender Passport: in my experience, this is as useless a piece of equipment as I've ever come across. It's not even very useful as a doorstop (too big, blocks your way) or an anchor (no place to secure a line). For sound reinforcement, it's hopeless. Possibly useful if you're doing a spoken panel with no more than four participants. Not for music, though.
- Your wattage need is not dependent on the number of instruments being amplified, it depends on how much air you want to move. One singer and guitar or a full band, it doesn't matter. What you're feeding to the speakers is post-mixer, so it's just signal. One cord to the left side of the stage, the other to the right side of the stage.
- I'm not going to get into arguing about who's got the best number, but I will say that you should always err on the side of quieter rather than louder. If you try to turn up to cover house noise, you simply make the house noise louder - if people are there to hang out with their friends and talk, and you turn the PA up, they'll hang out with their friends and yell, and you're back where you started. This is a customer-is-always-right situation: they're there to enjoy themselves, you're there to provide background noise. They are under no obligation to listen.
That's true Jon, and that's why quality and headroom are important. If you have decent headroom you don't have to turn up so much as a cleaner output is much easier to hear.
what PA watts
Re: what PA watts
buy as many watts as you can afford (within reason) - then you'll have the option of taking on bigger gigs if you get the offers
main thing is, watch the weight and number of bits of kit you have to load and unload each time
keep it simple
# Posted on September 1st 2010 by millionyears_bc
Re: what PA watts
After several expensive equipment purchases and try outs I reckon we've found a great solution for small to moderate sized gigs (and brill for busking too!):
A Roland BA-330 and a Behringer 10 input mixer (I think it's the 1002B). Both run off the mains, or can be battery powered for the outdoor gigs with no mains access. We use the 5 xlr inputs with AKG C1000S condenser mics (that also run off 9v batteries) because they pick up so well without you having to be up real close so 2 people can share a mic. In time we'll get another BA-330 and have one each side linked in stereo. We use the 2 main xlr inputs on the Roland so we've got auto feedback squelch if we need it. It only gives out 30 watts but seems enough for most gigs we do. After all, the Beatles played Shea Stadium with only 35w amps! ;0)
We've got a Yamaha StagePass 300 too but it needs mains and a bit more setting up.
Try a Roland out. You'll be impressed.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by Jay-eye
Re: what PA watts
I've been wondering about that Roland amp - we have the smaller (cheaper) Roland cube, and it works really well for the one gig we play where we need a battery-powered amp. We're thinking about trying out the bagamp though:
http://www.equationaudio.com/compactpasystems/compact-pa.php?object=rp15
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by airport
Re: what PA watts
I think I remember reading that the bagamp is designed for the same person responsible for the Fishman SA220:
http://www.fishman.com/products/solo_performance_systems.asp
which is not unlike the Bose L1
http://pro.bose.com/ProController?url=/pro/products/l1/l1.jsp
If you can find a place that has a bunch of systems you can try - do it
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by airport
Re: what PA watts
designed *by* the same person... - it's late and I've had a lot of montepulciano....
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by airport
Re: what PA watts
50 watts will not be enough if the pub gets a little noisy.
Basically, too, watts aren't as important as efficiency... but this is hard to test. Generally, some speakers produce more dB per watt then others, this means that they will be louder.
A good, basic pub system should probably be around 250 watts plus. You can get good portable systems which include mixer amplifiers for a fairly good price. A lot of these fold up into a suitcase like package which generally aren't too heavy.
Check out the Fender Passport systems. They fold up nice and have a basic mixer. They are quite loud and produce a nice sound, very clear with good intelligibility.
If you're performing in pub like situations I don't see how mains power requirement is an issue.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by camwebby
Re: what PA watts
I would recommend the Alto OEX400 set up for pub gigs and the like. No idea how many watts it is but the speakers and the thing with knobs on all clips together and one person can carry it in. It does the job!(and we have electric bass and drum kit)
To think that 30 years ago to supply as much sound reinforcement took a Trannie van full of nasty big heavy black boxes, roadie mixing desks, bloody great cables, ten tons of gaffa and the rest!
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: what PA watts
yh - the Orient Express looks cool, but what do you do for monitors and how's the feedback?
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by airport
Re: what PA watts
Bose L1 module without a doubt. Excellent sound and very portable. Our sound has been recieving great comments from audiences. We use a Soundcraft mixer with the Bose system. Keep away from Behringer mixers, I hear they are rubbish
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by cliffhanger
Re: what PA watts
Ditto on what cliffhanger says. We us Bose L1 and it works great in venues large and small. Quite pricey, but worth every penny because it can do it all. We use a Yamaha mixer after our primary Behringer mixer died after about a year (hint, hint). I will say the Behringer battery powered mixer we have has held up, but it does not have enough inputs for many of our gigs. We do not use it much any more.
# Posted on September 3rd 2010 by rob zouk
Re: what PA watts
Behringer is the Lada of the music world. In the world of sound engineers they have a saying........nae highs, nae lows it must be Bose. And that's not a compliment.
# Posted on September 3rd 2010 by bogman
Re: what PA watts
But to the question, someone said earlier that it's not the watts it's the efficiency, and that's dead on. If you want decent quality and you use mics on instruments don't consider anything less than 1000 watts unless it's D&B or something else stupidly expensive. If you are happy with that cliched crappy pub sound then by all means compromise.
# Posted on September 3rd 2010 by bogman
Re: what PA watts
hear hear (no pun intended)
# Posted on September 4th 2010 by millionyears_bc
Re: what PA watts
I'd love to tell you what we all use but the fluter lets me nowhere near that stuff since the great spaghetti wire incident of 2009.
# Posted on September 4th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: what PA watts
PA run down:
JBL powered speakers
Roland powered cube monitors
Peavy passive P14 mains board
Peavy passive P8 monitor board
Behringer EQ, Feedback Supressor, Sonic exciter in small rack
It's compact, easy to run, fits large and small venues - and if you're a discerning shopper, not very costly.
As to the Behringer comments, it depends on the gear you're getting. I'd never buy an amp or powered mixer, but their effects units are well worth the money and in some cases better than any alternative for like gear in a shop.
For an all in one, however, the Bose is unsurpassed for small and mid-sized venues.
# Posted on September 4th 2010 by Toppish
Re: what PA watts
"unsurpassed" - now that's what I call an exaggeration, though both Bose and JBL would do the job.
# Posted on September 4th 2010 by bogman
Re: what PA watts
Fair enough bogman.
The premium system is one you don't have to own, tote, or set-up, run by someone who knows what they're doing, who you don't have to yell at, and when it's over, curse.
# Posted on September 4th 2010 by Toppish
Re: what PA watts
1000 watts in a pub, for a small acoustic combo ?
You CANNOT be SERIOUS !
What was the original request for ?
I reckon the first answer was spot-on, especially the second line.
PS; Hey, 1millionbc, is that Raquel Welch still with you ?
# Posted on September 4th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: what PA watts
hmmm,
seems like know one really knows, nor do i, aint got a clue about PAs
nevertheless
without getting too technical, there are a few ways to measure wattage, the correct one being RMS-which can be about 1/3 of other ways of measuring it. so unless you know how the watts is measured, the figures dont mean alot.
i looked at the roland ba330 out of interest, and there is no way the true power output of this can be 30w (based on the supply voltage and current drawn) regardless of how you measure it.
behringer desks are fine, the preamps are a tiny bit noisy, but for crappy pub gigs this is irrelevant.
# Posted on September 5th 2010 by one nation under chicken
Re: what PA watts
Beatles - Shea Stadium (1965)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mUXwnEWEnE
# Posted on September 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: what PA watts
"You CANNOT be SERIOUS !" - is that right Pete?
I'm perfectly serious. As I said, and repeated by rudecyclist, you can't go on watts, but if you want sound quality with pub price PA's then 1000 watts in pretty reasonable. A trio I play with has a 1600 watt amp and two of these http://www.amazon.com/JBL-Lightweight-Two-Way-15-inch-450-Watt/dp/B001LTVDSM
......the line-up is two vocals, border pipes/whistle, fiddle and OM and when the pub is noisy the PA is struggling. If you don't have headroom on a pub PA you can't get the quality of sound that can be heard without being too loud.
drunkencyclist - a pub gig is only crappy if you make it crappy.
# Posted on September 5th 2010 by bogman
Re: what PA watts
Coming late to this party, but let me put in a few words.
- Fender Passport: in my experience, this is as useless a piece of equipment as I've ever come across. It's not even very useful as a doorstop (too big, blocks your way) or an anchor (no place to secure a line). For sound reinforcement, it's hopeless. Possibly useful if you're doing a spoken panel with no more than four participants. Not for music, though.
- Your wattage need is not dependent on the number of instruments being amplified, it depends on how much air you want to move. One singer and guitar or a full band, it doesn't matter. What you're feeding to the speakers is post-mixer, so it's just signal. One cord to the left side of the stage, the other to the right side of the stage.
- I'm not going to get into arguing about who's got the best number, but I will say that you should always err on the side of quieter rather than louder. If you try to turn up to cover house noise, you simply make the house noise louder - if people are there to hang out with their friends and talk, and you turn the PA up, they'll hang out with their friends and yell, and you're back where you started. This is a customer-is-always-right situation: they're there to enjoy themselves, you're there to provide background noise. They are under no obligation to listen.
# Posted on September 5th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: what PA watts
That's true Jon, and that's why quality and headroom are important. If you have decent headroom you don't have to turn up so much as a cleaner output is much easier to hear.
# Posted on September 5th 2010 by bogman