Are there any real pub owners in this "org." that care to offer advice to us all that would ease the relations we have with the owners, i. e. promote successful sessions for those wishing to engage?
Don't get me started - one of our favorite session in town just got shut down becasue they want to bring in the Sunday Football crowd instead. Sad. And the owner was a Cork Woman!
Are there any real pubs left? Or do you mean real owners? I stopped going to my local when they got wide-screen TV. If I wanted to watch the damned thing -- which I don't -- I would stay in.
As an ex landlord (not manager), you go with whatever pays the bills, these days, most pub landlords would welcome any extra business, managers on the other hand are not really bothered because they get a set wage.
Want a successful session from the landlord's point of view? Pack in people that consume large quantities of alcohol. If your session can make that happen you'll be welcome in any pub.
I'll start with a confession, I'm not a pub landlord - there you go, Ive said it! Figuring out what a pub landlord wants however should'nt be rocket science. The landlords joy (or otherwise) will be directly proportional to the amount of money going into the till. A pub is a business, there to make money. As soon as they stop making money, they close.
Of course, there may be landlords that love the music and are happy because they themselves are being entertained - but don't expect there to be too many of those! - ITM is a minority interest even in Ireland.
There are many other factors beyond that of course. If you "delivering" a session, it needs to be just that, several hours of continuous music, not 2 tunes and a half hour break - or 25 renditions of "the wind that shakes the Barley". But that all comes back to not scaring off the regulars who are the landlords "bread and butter" - back to keeping the till ringing.
A good start is to find the pubs quietest night - minimise the competition for filling the till ! Once you've found the "dead" night, start by asking if you can play a few tunes and see how it goes down. Here's a rule of thumb for you - if the landlord buys you ale your winning.
Beyond that, dont out-stay your welcome. Let the landlord tell you how often he would like you to go back. If it's once a month, you only need to find 3.33333 more pubs to have a session every week !
The last thing a session should be about is bringing cash in. Pick a dead night. Watch out for Sundays from now until Super Bowl if you're in the States, as Jusa points out.
If a pub wants to bring in the bucks they book bands for Friday or Saturday, not an unpaid session on a Monday.
The last time I was in Morgantown, I sat in on a wonderful session with some very good players. Just not the usual roster of instruments. Sure, there were fiddles and whistles, but the player who knew the most tunes played clarinet.
But that was 30 some odd years ago....
Phil, it's a good idea to start out with house sessions. As the session develops (it will--people interested in the tunes will come out of the woodwork), you'll know when you have critical mass to go looking for a pub or coffee house. That'll be about the time that your kitchen is full of people making music and you realize that you don't know the names of 3/4s of them.
A landlord who expects a session to pay for itself in terms of beer sold during the time the session is happening is an idiot. A session is a low-cost, long-term investment in branding a bar and turning occasional visitors into regulars. It's not about bringing in lots of empty gullets and lining them at the bar so the barman can pour beer into them. For that you want a trivia night.
That's exactly how it works here. The pub does it's best night on Tuesdays--trivia night. Our session is on Thursdays, and we occasionally have a full house, especially if the dancers come in. Friday and Saturdays are hired bands, and the room ranges from half empty to half full....
>>Pack in people that consume large quantities of alcohol<<
As long as they're paying for it, I doubt the landlord cares whether they drink alcohol or water.
>>The last thing a session should be about is bringing cash in<<
It's the first thing. That's why you're best to "pick a dead night" when otherwise they wouldn't take much cash
I am not a pub owner or manager. However, I think it is a nice gesture for those who play in the session every week to also frequent the pub on other nights. Where we play is a restaurant/pub. Some of their most regular customers on non-session nights are session participants. Also, it goes without saying, even though we get free drinks during the session, we always make sure to leave a good tip for the servers. As such, the management and staff look forward to us coming every week for the session and go out of their way to arrange another place in the restaurant/pub for us to play whenever our usual spot is reserved for parties, etc. To make a long story interminable, it helps to show a little appreciation to the management and staff for having a place to gather and play every week, and not treat it with a sense of entitlement.
>>The last thing a session should be about is bringing cash in<<
>>It's the first thing. That's why you're best to "pick a dead night" when otherwise they wouldn't take much cash
But it won't. A session is not a money-loser for the bar, but it's not ever going to be as easy as checking the till before start and after finish and comparing the number ot other events. A bar owner who thinks that's the only way to judge the use of their space should not waste your time starting a session and then cancelling it six months later when "it doesn't work out".
Some ways a session can help:
- schedule it to end around the time your evening crowd starts coming in. They arrive, and there's music packing up -> they get the idea to come in earlier next time. (it's not likely they remember which night to come for the session, but they come earlier anyway)
- schedule it for an off night to give the off-night sitters a taste of live music and increase your weekend draw. (you have to then be booking more of the same for weekends for this to work - if you're booking punk bands on the weekends, the session won't help)
- if you have walk-by traffic, schedule it for a time when people are walking by - Sunday afternoon, perhaps - and make sure it can be heard and seen from the street. Walkers-by get the idea "oh, there's a nice little place" - they don't just wander in then, they're walking somewhere, but again, you're building identity.
Of course, none of this works unless it's tied into a larger strategy. You can't just put a session in the corner and expect it to do anything but make noise. But if the bar owner thinks about what they're doing, they can actually get some mileage from this. And if you're trying to make a session that will last, you need to help the bar owner think about these things, not just "it'll bring in customers to drink your beer".
Because it just won't make a significant difference to what the bar takes in during the session.
Jon, your response is excellent. Also, not something I expected to read on this forum. While there are always a few spot on responses, to this type of question, when it comes up, it usually just gets beat up like a bodhran thread.
Thanks, Ben, nice of you to say so.
Some time ago, I spent a lot of time booking music and a different lot of time playing music. I got out of both when I realized that nobody on either side of the game really knows what they're doing or how to get what they want, or even what it is they want in most cases.
" schedule it to end around the time your evening crowd starts coming in. They arrive, and there's music packing up -> they get the idea to come in earlier next time."
In the liner notes to "Live at Mona's", (which I don't have handy here, so I'll paraphrase) Mick Moloney says pretty much exacltly the opposite: that sessions don't bring people to bars as much as they keep them there longer once they're already there.
That's all to do with knowing how people respond where you live. Baby boomers may want to stay longer, though many are happy to go on the town earlier.
Seeking Pub owners input
Seeking Pub owners input
Are there any real pub owners in this "org." that care to offer advice to us all that would ease the relations we have with the owners, i. e. promote successful sessions for those wishing to engage?
# Posted on September 1st 2010 by wvwhistler
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
Have you read these threads?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/22013/
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/22184/
# Posted on September 1st 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
Don't get me started - one of our favorite session in town just got shut down becasue they want to bring in the Sunday Football crowd instead. Sad. And the owner was a Cork Woman!
# Posted on September 1st 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
Hi Will, Good to hear from you. Thanks for the links. It looks to be a good start.
Phil
# Posted on September 1st 2010 by wvwhistler
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
Are there any real pubs left? Or do you mean real owners? I stopped going to my local when they got wide-screen TV. If I wanted to watch the damned thing -- which I don't -- I would stay in.
# Posted on September 1st 2010 by gam
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
As an ex landlord (not manager), you go with whatever pays the bills, these days, most pub landlords would welcome any extra business, managers on the other hand are not really bothered because they get a set wage.
# Posted on September 1st 2010 by beltane
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
Want a successful session from the landlord's point of view? Pack in people that consume large quantities of alcohol. If your session can make that happen you'll be welcome in any pub.
# Posted on September 1st 2010 by shanty
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
here here
# Posted on September 1st 2010 by beltane
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
I'll start with a confession, I'm not a pub landlord - there you go, Ive said it! Figuring out what a pub landlord wants however should'nt be rocket science. The landlords joy (or otherwise) will be directly proportional to the amount of money going into the till. A pub is a business, there to make money. As soon as they stop making money, they close.
Of course, there may be landlords that love the music and are happy because they themselves are being entertained - but don't expect there to be too many of those! - ITM is a minority interest even in Ireland.
There are many other factors beyond that of course. If you "delivering" a session, it needs to be just that, several hours of continuous music, not 2 tunes and a half hour break - or 25 renditions of "the wind that shakes the Barley". But that all comes back to not scaring off the regulars who are the landlords "bread and butter" - back to keeping the till ringing.
A good start is to find the pubs quietest night - minimise the competition for filling the till ! Once you've found the "dead" night, start by asking if you can play a few tunes and see how it goes down. Here's a rule of thumb for you - if the landlord buys you ale your winning.
Beyond that, dont out-stay your welcome. Let the landlord tell you how often he would like you to go back. If it's once a month, you only need to find 3.33333 more pubs to have a session every week !
# Posted on September 1st 2010 by ormepipes
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
The last thing a session should be about is bringing cash in. Pick a dead night. Watch out for Sundays from now until Super Bowl if you're in the States, as Jusa points out.
If a pub wants to bring in the bucks they book bands for Friday or Saturday, not an unpaid session on a Monday.
# Posted on September 1st 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
Thanks everyone . Great advice and excellent links. Maybe I'll can start a session here at my house and see what happens.
# Posted on September 1st 2010 by wvwhistler
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
An excellent idea! The beer is cheaper and the landlord's not preoccupied with profit!
# Posted on September 1st 2010 by shanty
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
The last time I was in Morgantown, I sat in on a wonderful session with some very good players. Just not the usual roster of instruments. Sure, there were fiddles and whistles, but the player who knew the most tunes played clarinet.
But that was 30 some odd years ago....
Phil, it's a good idea to start out with house sessions. As the session develops (it will--people interested in the tunes will come out of the woodwork), you'll know when you have critical mass to go looking for a pub or coffee house. That'll be about the time that your kitchen is full of people making music and you realize that you don't know the names of 3/4s of them.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
A landlord who expects a session to pay for itself in terms of beer sold during the time the session is happening is an idiot. A session is a low-cost, long-term investment in branding a bar and turning occasional visitors into regulars. It's not about bringing in lots of empty gullets and lining them at the bar so the barman can pour beer into them. For that you want a trivia night.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
Exactly Jon. Any publican expecting unpaid musical labor to fill their pub and make them money has been hitting their own sauce a little too hard.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
That's exactly how it works here. The pub does it's best night on Tuesdays--trivia night. Our session is on Thursdays, and we occasionally have a full house, especially if the dancers come in. Friday and Saturdays are hired bands, and the room ranges from half empty to half full....
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
>>Pack in people that consume large quantities of alcohol<<
As long as they're paying for it, I doubt the landlord cares whether they drink alcohol or water.
>>The last thing a session should be about is bringing cash in<<
It's the first thing. That's why you're best to "pick a dead night" when otherwise they wouldn't take much cash
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by Bren
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
Ours doesn't bring in cash. Just doubles the population (if all three of us turn up). Sometimes we buy a drink as well.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by harmonic miner
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
I am not a pub owner or manager. However, I think it is a nice gesture for those who play in the session every week to also frequent the pub on other nights. Where we play is a restaurant/pub. Some of their most regular customers on non-session nights are session participants. Also, it goes without saying, even though we get free drinks during the session, we always make sure to leave a good tip for the servers. As such, the management and staff look forward to us coming every week for the session and go out of their way to arrange another place in the restaurant/pub for us to play whenever our usual spot is reserved for parties, etc. To make a long story interminable, it helps to show a little appreciation to the management and staff for having a place to gather and play every week, and not treat it with a sense of entitlement.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by Jiml
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
>>The last thing a session should be about is bringing cash in<<
>>It's the first thing. That's why you're best to "pick a dead night" when otherwise they wouldn't take much cash
But it won't. A session is not a money-loser for the bar, but it's not ever going to be as easy as checking the till before start and after finish and comparing the number ot other events. A bar owner who thinks that's the only way to judge the use of their space should not waste your time starting a session and then cancelling it six months later when "it doesn't work out".
Some ways a session can help:
- schedule it to end around the time your evening crowd starts coming in. They arrive, and there's music packing up -> they get the idea to come in earlier next time. (it's not likely they remember which night to come for the session, but they come earlier anyway)
- schedule it for an off night to give the off-night sitters a taste of live music and increase your weekend draw. (you have to then be booking more of the same for weekends for this to work - if you're booking punk bands on the weekends, the session won't help)
- if you have walk-by traffic, schedule it for a time when people are walking by - Sunday afternoon, perhaps - and make sure it can be heard and seen from the street. Walkers-by get the idea "oh, there's a nice little place" - they don't just wander in then, they're walking somewhere, but again, you're building identity.
Of course, none of this works unless it's tied into a larger strategy. You can't just put a session in the corner and expect it to do anything but make noise. But if the bar owner thinks about what they're doing, they can actually get some mileage from this. And if you're trying to make a session that will last, you need to help the bar owner think about these things, not just "it'll bring in customers to drink your beer".
Because it just won't make a significant difference to what the bar takes in during the session.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
Jon, your response is excellent. Also, not something I expected to read on this forum. While there are always a few spot on responses, to this type of question, when it comes up, it usually just gets beat up like a bodhran thread.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
Thanks, Ben, nice of you to say so.
Some time ago, I spent a lot of time booking music and a different lot of time playing music. I got out of both when I realized that nobody on either side of the game really knows what they're doing or how to get what they want, or even what it is they want in most cases.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
Hear hear. That's good advice. Often I feel like we're in the publican education business.
# Posted on September 2nd 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
" schedule it to end around the time your evening crowd starts coming in. They arrive, and there's music packing up -> they get the idea to come in earlier next time."
In the liner notes to "Live at Mona's", (which I don't have handy here, so I'll paraphrase) Mick Moloney says pretty much exacltly the opposite: that sessions don't bring people to bars as much as they keep them there longer once they're already there.
# Posted on September 8th 2010 by Georgi
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
That's all to do with knowing how people respond where you live. Baby boomers may want to stay longer, though many are happy to go on the town earlier.
# Posted on September 8th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
I try not to pack up till the barkeep is putting stools on the tables...
# Posted on September 8th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
There is not try ~ only do!
# Posted on September 9th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Seeking Pub owners input
Thanks for the good advice folks
# Posted on September 9th 2010 by bazouki dave