Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
I'm trying to draw the off-topic discussion out of the "Slowing down CDs" thread.
When we approach a tradition such as IrTrad from the outside, we need to be very careful not to mis-interpret players whose style doesn't appeal to us immediately.
We may be coming to IrTrad because we liked Riverdance, or because we liked the low whistle solo in Enya's red album, and this is fine, those are fine pieces of work, but they are not, by any means, mainstream Irish Traditional instrumental music.
I read a line about Seamus Tansey (just to pick on one great flutist that was mentioned in the previous discussion), so i bought the Easter Snow CD. The first 10 times i listened to that, it just burned my ears. That stuff was just way too fast and way too forceful for me to be able to enjoy it.
If this happens to you, don't dismiss the musician. Put the CD aside for a while, try to learn more, then come back to it and you may find that you can understand it better and like it much more.
In fact, when we first come to Irish Traditional music, we may have the wrong expectation that this stuff is simple, and we'll learn it quickly and move on. If you're serious about learning this stuff, you will have to correct this expectation and re-approach the material with a much more humble attitude. This stuff takes years to learn, probably more like a lifetime.
Even Riverdance, i can say here that it's not my "thing"; in fact, i find it annoyingly cute. BUT, this doesn't mean jack. Michael Flatley is a much better flute player than i will ever be. Maybe in another 15 years or so i'll be able to understand Riverdance and like it.
In fact, i will never be as good of a flute player as M.F. or S.T. or any of the guys that get listed in the "Irish flute" Web sites, and that doesn't matter. This is not a competition. (But this would be a topic for another discussion).
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
These are good points. In fact, before I say my bit, I'll say that I agree with you entirely. It's easy for us to flatly reject big productions like Riverdance as being non-traditional, but like it or not, it is now part of history. It's well loved by many, and it is now in the traditional mix. The point is- it is not up to individuals to choose what is the tradition. For the same reason, I can't yet call my own compositions Irish, much less "traditional." It's up to others to decide.
I wonder how many old Irish players lambasted the Chieftains and others for introducing the bodhran into their ensemble recordings in the 1960's? Who would deny that the Bodhran is traditional now?
Who can deny that something as big as Riverdance will have some kind of effect on the tradition? Already, the compositions from the show have made it into many legitimate traditionalist recordings, despite the protests of those who hate to hear uilleann pipes backed by a synthesizer.
On the other side of the coin, if I move to Ireland, dress like a leprechaun, become an Irish national, and have Irish children who then write Irish traditional music, and their music is forgotten and discarded, then it won't be Irish traditional music.
To me, it seems we are setting ourselves up for some disappointment if we make ourselves too opinionated about the work of musicians who love what they are doing. What if, despite everything we do to convince the world to reject somebody's music,
the tradition evolves, and the traditional music of the future embellishes things they brought to the tradition? Will we be forced to reject the tradition? What if I secretly like that future music that
has elements traceable to the stuff I had rejected?
So, I hope as I discover the essential chocalie howe of Irishness in music that I also discover humility, gratitude, and a sense of humor.
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
Dirk! You've written some tunes? When are we going to hear them at a Sunday session!? *grin* Ah, the hazards of actually posting....hehehe
I got into trad music, like Joe, from the Irish stepdance side. I've no real beef with Riverdance or any such. But I don't see them as traditional Irish music, nor as trying to be that. To me, to grump on and on about how it's horrible music because it's not strictly trad is a lot like the black kid at that black college who publically told Paul Simon that he shouldn't be *allowed* to use black influences in his music and that it was simply making money off of somebody else's culture (this was after the release of the Graceland album, or whatever it was called), and in general doing his best to say indirectly that Simon was continuing the slavery of the blacks in the US by using blacks on his albums and letting them influence his music. To me, Simon reacted well and graciously -- he said that he was sorry the student felt that way, but that he didn't agree, and went on to the next person.
Besides. It's just music. It's not going to bring back the dead. It's not going to end a war. It's not going to kill anyone. Yes it's capable of bringing us great joy, yes we all care very much about it, but it's not worth actively trying to kill off anyone's happiness in their own music or the music of others, whether we like it or not.
There, my two cents, and I'll climb off the soapbox now!
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
That's all true mates. Sometimes I think that the love we feel to this music "tickles our interest" a bit too much and we read and buy and talk and have such huge information that we don't simply relax and listen without trying to reach an opinion about the music/artist so as to reaffirm our own liking. I've experienced this feeling in some concerts and I've really hated myself to miss a great moment for music wasting time talking about "I'd rather whatever" or "this is not suited to me".
On the other part, what's tradition? What does exactly mean that word? Doing things according to certain rules? Who does write those rules? Society? People? From what cultural background? From what temporal stretch? As regards to Irish, (Celtic, call it what you want) music tradition has been broken million times. If you listen to Middle Age Scottish tunes and compare them to what we currently reckon traditional music from Scotland we find but a few links.
The answer might be an invisible thread made of tunes running through years. Tunes, played once and again by different people in different places, years, centuries apart, as the result of thousand fresh innovations that went old fashioned. Maybe Tradition in music is the constant and never ending change of the same old things that a group of people once loved and some still do.
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
I absolutely agree with Dirk and Zina, but I'd like to point out what traditional means to me. It means that the music is passed from one generation to another. As simple as that.
And like old stories your granpa told you, which he learnt from his granpa and so on, tunes are exposed to slight changes every time they're passed from person to another (as Rmcordoba says). And the learner will probably copy the teacher's way of playing, or the arrangements or whatever, so Dirk is absolutely right to say that perhaps in 20 years time, an uileann pipe backed by sinthesyzers, or bouzoukis playing reels on their own will be considered traditional.
So the real spirit of this, and the only thing we should be worried about, is to pass as many tunes as we can to the next generation of musicians. No matter how they play them.
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
Whoa! Let's talk general meaning here for a second --
I can't say that I necessarily agree that all the "tradition" is, is the process of passing things on. Used clothing is called 'used' or simply 'old' for quite some time, and then it's called vintage after a few decades have passed, but it's not called traditional clothing until it's been codified into a certain kind of national oufit.
Part of what makes a tradition traditional is that when it changes, it changes SLOWLY. This is partly because the nature of change means that some people are going to change it radically, and some people are going to object vociferously, and eventually (as in, years down the road) the change will happen somewhere in the middle of the two. This has very little to do with the process of simply passing a tune on, as opposed to playing that tune on, say, the tuba, with marimba accompaniment. (PLEASE tell me I found an instrument that none of us plays trad music on!) The pushmepullyou effect is well known and happens most quickly in the political processes of large bodies of people, especially in a place like the US where we primarily have only two large political parties.
Bringing it back to the discussion at hand, this means that those of us who grump about the new ways of using the music have our place. Those of us who think the changes are great have our place. Some of us are centrists and think it all has its place. Now, let's not get started on "worth" as opposed to "place"!
Perhaps enough to say that The Tradition we're talking about is worth arguing over a couple of pints and even some friendly agreeing to disagree, but not to the point of either losing friendships, reputations, or getting into actual fisticuffs, all of which has happened when people get into this kind of thing. Which, if you go by some of these definitions of "traditional" might then be considered a tradition that I would rather not see us keep going!
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
This has been an enjoyable discussion for me. I think I'm learning a lot. However, Zina, I'm
sorry to disappoint you with the sad fact that I haven't written any tunes. I was being really
hypothetical. My point is that I'm an American, and calling my own reel Irish might be a bit, well,
out of place. I think this discussion has helped me decide how to view my music, once I get
around to thinking up a tune or three. Also, I totally agree with Zina on her last point. Can we
try to learn from our debates without getting mean? Absolutely.
Now, I'd love to write some tunes at some point, and I have nothing against writing
new jigs, reels, and such. It's just that I'm totally obsessed with learning the pipes and
learning the traditional tunes that I heard growing up. Before I write tunes, I think I'd rather spend
my time actually learning to build the uilleann pipes. Maybe I'll let the idea grow some more...
When I do write a tune, I think I won't worry about whether or not it's going to be traditional. I'll teach
it to whoever likes, and I think I'll make sure I allow myself the freedom to enjoy it without worrying too
much about whether it's Irish. What if it ends up being played by a local jazz quartet? Well, that's maybe
not how I would have played it, but the world will act mostly out of my control. Perhaps, if I want my tunes
to make it into the traditional mix, I'll be most successful by respecting more elements of the
tradition.
I think in the case of Riverdance, the composer found a lot of Irish tradition, and mixed it with a lot of new
elements too. At the beginning, I bet it looked like a huge risk to them, but it became pretty popular. Maybe
in ten years a lot of it will look like 90's kitsch. The video itself may go the way of brown shag carpet from the 70's
and cheap, pink plastic curtains. However, some Joe may play a very tasteful traditional arrangement of the
music, and that setting of the tune may stay in the tradition. Some who can't get past the memory of uilleann
pipes and the synth may never be able to forgive its association with the composition. Any reminder of that kitsch
can be a problem. For me, a sense of humor and a quick reminder that "this is just music" is enough to stop that
from happening. Maybe I'm wrong. If it helps you to laugh, picture me building an electronic regulator onto the side
of my pipes, maybe with a laser light show emanating from the octopus-like contraption on my lap.
That brings me to agreeing to Zina's last point. This kind of debate is great for learning - up the point where
we try to force others to agree. Now let me first say that this particular discussion thread has been excellent.
It seems to me to be full of genuinely interesting thoughts, and there has been no fighting language. The kind of
thing that I hate to see on a discussion like this is fighting language. Let's not encourage anger and hatred to remain
in the tradition. It's a mistake that has been made over and over in every tradition.
Actually, Zina, you have some neat coffee-shop discussion tips on your web site which point out things you should avoid
talking about with people unless you really-really trust them. It might be a good transition into a talk about avoiding offensive
discussions in an internet chat...
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
One of my favorite pieces of musical dance theater of all time is the Riverdance (not sure which version) duel between the two Irish step dancers and the two jazz tap dancers. Eileen Ivers plays fiddle (a jig) for the step dancers, and a sax player does the honors for the tap dancers. They "compete," but the step dancers get increasingly jazzy and the jazz dancers try their toes at some step-dancey looking things, and the fiddle gets jazzier and the sax grows more Irish, until by the end they're all dancing and playing together, and it's NOT traditional Irish music, but it IS a wonderful, thrilling, completely engaging piece of work.
Zina's comments are right on the spot. You go girl! Zina, Princess Warrior!
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
I've definitely noticed that over the years, as my exposure to more and more fiddle styles grows, my tastes have changed. As a listener only for most of my life I had very firm ideas about whose style I liked the best and whose I did not. Luckily, I never had the chance to get on a discussion forum back then and be tempted to share my rather vociferous opinions with others....because now one of my favorites is someone who I *definitely* didn't take to at first and someone I used to really love doesn't appeal so much anymore. That doesn't mean I can't learn a ton from listening to both of them! Glauber is absolutely right about putting a cd aside and trying again later and being aware that as you grow your understanding will grow and your tastes will change. I think I'll take Dirk's phrase and glue it to the inside of my fiddle case as a reminder...."Humility, Gratitude, and a Sense of Humor".
This has been another great discussion. I'm so happy to have found a board where everyone manages to have discussions without getting into fights. Thanks to Zina for sending me over here and to everyone else for their sense of humor and great advice. Not to mention the wonderful phrases "a couger coughing up a hairball" and "Bang your Frog" (among others).
Everyone have a great holiday season and a Happy New Year! I'm off to a frantic Christmas week of Contra Dance playing, rehearsal for a band I don't think I want to join, a New Years session at a friend's house and of course, Christmas...
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
I wonder if our acceptance of Riverdance and Tim O'Brien and those Chevy commercials with whistle and uillean pipes and running thoroughbreds comes easier for those of us who first found the music through the old trad musicians? I got my first taste of Irish music listening to Mick Moloney's show on public radio back in the 1970s. He played lots of the earliest recordings, from the 1920s up through the 1950s, with forays into the New Age 60s, and the sounds that stick in my head are Bobby Casey and Junior Crehan and early Boys of the Lough, Bothy Band, and De Dannan. So I started out with Bobby Casey's powerful, intricate, unpredictable fiddle rolling around in my head, and then heard some of the "innovations" the next generation brought to the music (which sound pretty ancient trad by today's standards), and I followed Frankie Gavin and Kevin Burke and Aly Bain and Paddy Keenan and Sean Smyth and Liz Carroll through their various experiments, and then heard Riverdance and Eileen Ivers and Ashley MacIsaac, and Leahy, and it was easy to say, for any of them, "Well, THAT was different, but I liked it for what it was." And I STILL love to listen to Bobby Casey.
So to me, IRTRAD encompasses just about all of that and more, some of it more on the periphery, but there's always this core of music that's done for the sheer joy of it, with no pretense of impressing anyone or making money off it or setting some kind of standard, with no pretense of anything at all except to say, "Listen. Feel that? From the hair standing up on the back of your neck to the beat pounding out of your feet on the floor boards, that's the music in you. Celebrate it!"
What a wonderous gift to learn this music from everyone that's been hooked by it and passed it along simply by playing it. We all belong to a community of musicians that goes around the globe and back in time to lost generations. Remarkable!
Thanks once again to the generosity and diligence of Jeremy for providing this great site and opening it to such a free-wheeling, fun crowd. The only downside is that I think we've buried him in work--he used to post a new tune every week, with comments, and now we never hear from the poor guy.
Will, have you heard Tim O'Brien's latest? I quite liked it for what it is -- and there's a couple of fine tracks of almost traditional status (Kevin Burke and Michael McGoldrick, two of my favorite players! Not to mention John Williams, Shannon Heaton's former teacher). And some great original tunes that I think will be very welcome in the tradition. I got to review it for The Celtic Cafe (http://www.celticcafe.com/music/obrien/) and enjoyed communicating with Tim O'Brien -- he's very articulate and left me hardly any work to do on the article itself!
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
I like traditional Irish music very much, and I also enjoy the different 'flavors' that have been added over the years. As the Irish moved about, they brought their music to other lands and shared their love of what they knew with others. As tunes were learned, a little" flavoring" was added, like in a soup. Maybe what was added was like an unknown herb. Some liked the new flavoring and some didn't. I have seen and heard music from musicians from the north of Spain who play their version of Irish music. Some of the instruments were unfamiliar to me,but it was lovely, moving, invigorating, toe tapping and much more, all the things that I feel with Irish Trad.music. I feel the same about Irish music from Canada. Some time ago I heard a local artist Skip Healey play a tune with a Moroccan flavoring to it, and it's truly beautiful. I heard it said that some turned up their noses to it, because it wasn't "traditional", but to me it tasted wonderful, full of flavor. I guess, everything has it's place. For myself I like what is comforting, things I'm sure of. But I also like to sample other offerings. How much I would miss out on if I didn't. I like Riverdance, too. The step dancers vs. the tap dancers was one of my favorite parts, I was able to see it in person when they visited RI. You could see at first how the step/jazz dancers were competing with one another, thinking their way of dancing was "the best" way of dancing, and how they tried the others way of dancing and thought "hey, that's not bad". It made me smile. So, I guess the bottom line for me is that I understand the viewpoints of others and I'm okay with it. For those who try to keep beloved tunes, passing them on for the enjoyment of others, I fully agree. Like an heirloom. Cherished the way it was supposed to be. But those tunes began somewhere, after all.
Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
I'm trying to draw the off-topic discussion out of the "Slowing down CDs" thread.
When we approach a tradition such as IrTrad from the outside, we need to be very careful not to mis-interpret players whose style doesn't appeal to us immediately.
We may be coming to IrTrad because we liked Riverdance, or because we liked the low whistle solo in Enya's red album, and this is fine, those are fine pieces of work, but they are not, by any means, mainstream Irish Traditional instrumental music.
I read a line about Seamus Tansey (just to pick on one great flutist that was mentioned in the previous discussion), so i bought the Easter Snow CD. The first 10 times i listened to that, it just burned my ears. That stuff was just way too fast and way too forceful for me to be able to enjoy it.
If this happens to you, don't dismiss the musician. Put the CD aside for a while, try to learn more, then come back to it and you may find that you can understand it better and like it much more.
In fact, when we first come to Irish Traditional music, we may have the wrong expectation that this stuff is simple, and we'll learn it quickly and move on. If you're serious about learning this stuff, you will have to correct this expectation and re-approach the material with a much more humble attitude. This stuff takes years to learn, probably more like a lifetime.
Even Riverdance, i can say here that it's not my "thing"; in fact, i find it annoyingly cute. BUT, this doesn't mean jack. Michael Flatley is a much better flute player than i will ever be. Maybe in another 15 years or so i'll be able to understand Riverdance and like it.
In fact, i will never be as good of a flute player as M.F. or S.T. or any of the guys that get listed in the "Irish flute" Web sites, and that doesn't matter. This is not a competition. (But this would be a topic for another discussion).
# Posted on December 20th 2001 by glauber
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
These are good points. In fact, before I say my bit, I'll say that I agree with you entirely. It's easy for us to flatly reject big productions like Riverdance as being non-traditional, but like it or not, it is now part of history. It's well loved by many, and it is now in the traditional mix. The point is- it is not up to individuals to choose what is the tradition. For the same reason, I can't yet call my own compositions Irish, much less "traditional." It's up to others to decide.
I wonder how many old Irish players lambasted the Chieftains and others for introducing the bodhran into their ensemble recordings in the 1960's? Who would deny that the Bodhran is traditional now?
Who can deny that something as big as Riverdance will have some kind of effect on the tradition? Already, the compositions from the show have made it into many legitimate traditionalist recordings, despite the protests of those who hate to hear uilleann pipes backed by a synthesizer.
On the other side of the coin, if I move to Ireland, dress like a leprechaun, become an Irish national, and have Irish children who then write Irish traditional music, and their music is forgotten and discarded, then it won't be Irish traditional music.
To me, it seems we are setting ourselves up for some disappointment if we make ourselves too opinionated about the work of musicians who love what they are doing. What if, despite everything we do to convince the world to reject somebody's music,
the tradition evolves, and the traditional music of the future embellishes things they brought to the tradition? Will we be forced to reject the tradition? What if I secretly like that future music that
has elements traceable to the stuff I had rejected?
So, I hope as I discover the essential chocalie howe of Irishness in music that I also discover humility, gratitude, and a sense of humor.
# Posted on December 20th 2001 by dirk
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
Dirk! You've written some tunes? When are we going to hear them at a Sunday session!? *grin* Ah, the hazards of actually posting....hehehe
I got into trad music, like Joe, from the Irish stepdance side. I've no real beef with Riverdance or any such. But I don't see them as traditional Irish music, nor as trying to be that. To me, to grump on and on about how it's horrible music because it's not strictly trad is a lot like the black kid at that black college who publically told Paul Simon that he shouldn't be *allowed* to use black influences in his music and that it was simply making money off of somebody else's culture (this was after the release of the Graceland album, or whatever it was called), and in general doing his best to say indirectly that Simon was continuing the slavery of the blacks in the US by using blacks on his albums and letting them influence his music. To me, Simon reacted well and graciously -- he said that he was sorry the student felt that way, but that he didn't agree, and went on to the next person.
Besides. It's just music. It's not going to bring back the dead. It's not going to end a war. It's not going to kill anyone. Yes it's capable of bringing us great joy, yes we all care very much about it, but it's not worth actively trying to kill off anyone's happiness in their own music or the music of others, whether we like it or not.
There, my two cents, and I'll climb off the soapbox now!
zls
# Posted on December 20th 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
That's all true mates. Sometimes I think that the love we feel to this music "tickles our interest" a bit too much and we read and buy and talk and have such huge information that we don't simply relax and listen without trying to reach an opinion about the music/artist so as to reaffirm our own liking. I've experienced this feeling in some concerts and I've really hated myself to miss a great moment for music wasting time talking about "I'd rather whatever" or "this is not suited to me".
On the other part, what's tradition? What does exactly mean that word? Doing things according to certain rules? Who does write those rules? Society? People? From what cultural background? From what temporal stretch? As regards to Irish, (Celtic, call it what you want) music tradition has been broken million times. If you listen to Middle Age Scottish tunes and compare them to what we currently reckon traditional music from Scotland we find but a few links.
The answer might be an invisible thread made of tunes running through years. Tunes, played once and again by different people in different places, years, centuries apart, as the result of thousand fresh innovations that went old fashioned. Maybe Tradition in music is the constant and never ending change of the same old things that a group of people once loved and some still do.
# Posted on December 20th 2001 by Rmcordoba
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
I absolutely agree with Dirk and Zina, but I'd like to point out what traditional means to me. It means that the music is passed from one generation to another. As simple as that.
And like old stories your granpa told you, which he learnt from his granpa and so on, tunes are exposed to slight changes every time they're passed from person to another (as Rmcordoba says). And the learner will probably copy the teacher's way of playing, or the arrangements or whatever, so Dirk is absolutely right to say that perhaps in 20 years time, an uileann pipe backed by sinthesyzers, or bouzoukis playing reels on their own will be considered traditional.
So the real spirit of this, and the only thing we should be worried about, is to pass as many tunes as we can to the next generation of musicians. No matter how they play them.
Toni
# Posted on December 20th 2001 by Toni Ribas
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
While I agree with much of the content of the previous contributions in this debate, I think Toni put his finger on it when he said it
# Posted on December 20th 2001 by murfbox
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
Whoa! Let's talk general meaning here for a second --
I can't say that I necessarily agree that all the "tradition" is, is the process of passing things on. Used clothing is called 'used' or simply 'old' for quite some time, and then it's called vintage after a few decades have passed, but it's not called traditional clothing until it's been codified into a certain kind of national oufit.
Part of what makes a tradition traditional is that when it changes, it changes SLOWLY. This is partly because the nature of change means that some people are going to change it radically, and some people are going to object vociferously, and eventually (as in, years down the road) the change will happen somewhere in the middle of the two. This has very little to do with the process of simply passing a tune on, as opposed to playing that tune on, say, the tuba, with marimba accompaniment. (PLEASE tell me I found an instrument that none of us plays trad music on!) The pushmepullyou effect is well known and happens most quickly in the political processes of large bodies of people, especially in a place like the US where we primarily have only two large political parties.
Bringing it back to the discussion at hand, this means that those of us who grump about the new ways of using the music have our place. Those of us who think the changes are great have our place. Some of us are centrists and think it all has its place. Now, let's not get started on "worth" as opposed to "place"!
Perhaps enough to say that The Tradition we're talking about is worth arguing over a couple of pints and even some friendly agreeing to disagree, but not to the point of either losing friendships, reputations, or getting into actual fisticuffs, all of which has happened when people get into this kind of thing. Which, if you go by some of these definitions of "traditional" might then be considered a tradition that I would rather not see us keep going!
Zina
# Posted on December 21st 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
This has been an enjoyable discussion for me. I think I'm learning a lot. However, Zina, I'm
I was being really
sorry to disappoint you with the sad fact that I haven't written any tunes.
hypothetical. My point is that I'm an American, and calling my own reel Irish might be a bit, well,
out of place. I think this discussion has helped me decide how to view my music, once I get
around to thinking up a tune or three. Also, I totally agree with Zina on her last point. Can we
try to learn from our debates without getting mean? Absolutely.
Now, I'd love to write some tunes at some point, and I have nothing against writing
new jigs, reels, and such. It's just that I'm totally obsessed with learning the pipes and
learning the traditional tunes that I heard growing up. Before I write tunes, I think I'd rather spend
my time actually learning to build the uilleann pipes. Maybe I'll let the idea grow some more...
When I do write a tune, I think I won't worry about whether or not it's going to be traditional. I'll teach
it to whoever likes, and I think I'll make sure I allow myself the freedom to enjoy it without worrying too
much about whether it's Irish. What if it ends up being played by a local jazz quartet? Well, that's maybe
not how I would have played it, but the world will act mostly out of my control. Perhaps, if I want my tunes
to make it into the traditional mix, I'll be most successful by respecting more elements of the
tradition.
I think in the case of Riverdance, the composer found a lot of Irish tradition, and mixed it with a lot of new
elements too. At the beginning, I bet it looked like a huge risk to them, but it became pretty popular. Maybe
in ten years a lot of it will look like 90's kitsch. The video itself may go the way of brown shag carpet from the 70's
and cheap, pink plastic curtains. However, some Joe may play a very tasteful traditional arrangement of the
music, and that setting of the tune may stay in the tradition. Some who can't get past the memory of uilleann
pipes and the synth may never be able to forgive its association with the composition. Any reminder of that kitsch
can be a problem. For me, a sense of humor and a quick reminder that "this is just music" is enough to stop that
from happening. Maybe I'm wrong. If it helps you to laugh, picture me building an electronic regulator onto the side
of my pipes, maybe with a laser light show emanating from the octopus-like contraption on my lap.
That brings me to agreeing to Zina's last point. This kind of debate is great for learning - up the point where
we try to force others to agree. Now let me first say that this particular discussion thread has been excellent.
It seems to me to be full of genuinely interesting thoughts, and there has been no fighting language. The kind of
thing that I hate to see on a discussion like this is fighting language. Let's not encourage anger and hatred to remain
in the tradition. It's a mistake that has been made over and over in every tradition.
Actually, Zina, you have some neat coffee-shop discussion tips on your web site which point out things you should avoid
talking about with people unless you really-really trust them. It might be a good transition into a talk about avoiding offensive
discussions in an internet chat...
# Posted on December 21st 2001 by dirk
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
One of my favorite pieces of musical dance theater of all time is the Riverdance (not sure which version) duel between the two Irish step dancers and the two jazz tap dancers. Eileen Ivers plays fiddle (a jig) for the step dancers, and a sax player does the honors for the tap dancers. They "compete," but the step dancers get increasingly jazzy and the jazz dancers try their toes at some step-dancey looking things, and the fiddle gets jazzier and the sax grows more Irish, until by the end they're all dancing and playing together, and it's NOT traditional Irish music, but it IS a wonderful, thrilling, completely engaging piece of work.
Zina's comments are right on the spot. You go girl! Zina, Princess Warrior!
# Posted on December 21st 2001 by Will Harmon
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
I've definitely noticed that over the years, as my exposure to more and more fiddle styles grows, my tastes have changed. As a listener only for most of my life I had very firm ideas about whose style I liked the best and whose I did not. Luckily, I never had the chance to get on a discussion forum back then and be tempted to share my rather vociferous opinions with others....because now one of my favorites is someone who I *definitely* didn't take to at first and someone I used to really love doesn't appeal so much anymore. That doesn't mean I can't learn a ton from listening to both of them! Glauber is absolutely right about putting a cd aside and trying again later and being aware that as you grow your understanding will grow and your tastes will change. I think I'll take Dirk's phrase and glue it to the inside of my fiddle case as a reminder...."Humility, Gratitude, and a Sense of Humor".
This has been another great discussion. I'm so happy to have found a board where everyone manages to have discussions without getting into fights. Thanks to Zina for sending me over here and to everyone else for their sense of humor and great advice. Not to mention the wonderful phrases "a couger coughing up a hairball" and "Bang your Frog" (among others).
Everyone have a great holiday season and a Happy New Year! I'm off to a frantic Christmas week of Contra Dance playing, rehearsal for a band I don't think I want to join, a New Years session at a friend's house and of course, Christmas...
# Posted on December 21st 2001 by soft black stars
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
I wonder if our acceptance of Riverdance and Tim O'Brien and those Chevy commercials with whistle and uillean pipes and running thoroughbreds comes easier for those of us who first found the music through the old trad musicians? I got my first taste of Irish music listening to Mick Moloney's show on public radio back in the 1970s. He played lots of the earliest recordings, from the 1920s up through the 1950s, with forays into the New Age 60s, and the sounds that stick in my head are Bobby Casey and Junior Crehan and early Boys of the Lough, Bothy Band, and De Dannan. So I started out with Bobby Casey's powerful, intricate, unpredictable fiddle rolling around in my head, and then heard some of the "innovations" the next generation brought to the music (which sound pretty ancient trad by today's standards), and I followed Frankie Gavin and Kevin Burke and Aly Bain and Paddy Keenan and Sean Smyth and Liz Carroll through their various experiments, and then heard Riverdance and Eileen Ivers and Ashley MacIsaac, and Leahy, and it was easy to say, for any of them, "Well, THAT was different, but I liked it for what it was." And I STILL love to listen to Bobby Casey.
So to me, IRTRAD encompasses just about all of that and more, some of it more on the periphery, but there's always this core of music that's done for the sheer joy of it, with no pretense of impressing anyone or making money off it or setting some kind of standard, with no pretense of anything at all except to say, "Listen. Feel that? From the hair standing up on the back of your neck to the beat pounding out of your feet on the floor boards, that's the music in you. Celebrate it!"
What a wonderous gift to learn this music from everyone that's been hooked by it and passed it along simply by playing it. We all belong to a community of musicians that goes around the globe and back in time to lost generations. Remarkable!
Thanks once again to the generosity and diligence of Jeremy for providing this great site and opening it to such a free-wheeling, fun crowd. The only downside is that I think we've buried him in work--he used to post a new tune every week, with comments, and now we never hear from the poor guy.
Looking forward to the Sessions ahead,
Will
# Posted on December 21st 2001 by Will Harmon
Digressing
Will, have you heard Tim O'Brien's latest? I quite liked it for what it is -- and there's a couple of fine tracks of almost traditional status (Kevin Burke and Michael McGoldrick, two of my favorite players! Not to mention John Williams, Shannon Heaton's former teacher). And some great original tunes that I think will be very welcome in the tradition. I got to review it for The Celtic Cafe (http://www.celticcafe.com/music/obrien/) and enjoyed communicating with Tim O'Brien -- he's very articulate and left me hardly any work to do on the article itself!
Zina
# Posted on December 22nd 2001 by Zina Lee
Re: Playing syles, the Tradition and eating humble pie
I like traditional Irish music very much, and I also enjoy the different 'flavors' that have been added over the years. As the Irish moved about, they brought their music to other lands and shared their love of what they knew with others. As tunes were learned, a little" flavoring" was added, like in a soup. Maybe what was added was like an unknown herb. Some liked the new flavoring and some didn't. I have seen and heard music from musicians from the north of Spain who play their version of Irish music. Some of the instruments were unfamiliar to me,but it was lovely, moving, invigorating, toe tapping and much more, all the things that I feel with Irish Trad.music. I feel the same about Irish music from Canada. Some time ago I heard a local artist Skip Healey play a tune with a Moroccan flavoring to it, and it's truly beautiful. I heard it said that some turned up their noses to it, because it wasn't "traditional", but to me it tasted wonderful, full of flavor. I guess, everything has it's place. For myself I like what is comforting, things I'm sure of. But I also like to sample other offerings. How much I would miss out on if I didn't. I like Riverdance, too. The step dancers vs. the tap dancers was one of my favorite parts, I was able to see it in person when they visited RI. You could see at first how the step/jazz dancers were competing with one another, thinking their way of dancing was "the best" way of dancing, and how they tried the others way of dancing and thought "hey, that's not bad". It made me smile. So, I guess the bottom line for me is that I understand the viewpoints of others and I'm okay with it. For those who try to keep beloved tunes, passing them on for the enjoyment of others, I fully agree. Like an heirloom. Cherished the way it was supposed to be. But those tunes began somewhere, after all.
# Posted on December 26th 2001 by whistlegirl in RI