Introducing yourself to a new session - How does anyone else do this?
I personally would try and identify the key (wo)man, wait until there was sufficient lull between tunes, then go over and with loadsa smiles and good cheer, copious quantities of self deprecation, ask politely if it's ok to hang on for the odd tune...sorry, sorry....but be yourself at the same time.
Then once "in", move in gently, keeping people on your side. Although being cautiously chatty, you must remain coy, but confident. You're a guest, nearly a gatecrasher, at someone else's "open"(?! -is there such a thing?!) session. All the while trying to suss out how the land lies -- not for any Macchiavellian purposes, but so's not to offend any lingering resentments of one party or another.
Have a good store of standards ready to be fired off at a moment's notice.
Remain humble - but of good cheer.
Avoid Loud Persons, for they are a Vexation to the Spirit (The Desiderata)
I'd say also, play it by ear.
Some sessions are finely balanced, and your *assistance* might not always be welcomed....especially if you're a well - immersed player...except as a quiet help to what they've already got. Bless'em, tender wee things.
Others will delight in the "visitation" from tune angels...
I suppose my point is...use yer brain. Act appropriately....and if you can't manage that, don't make it a public spectacle.
Most people who have arrived at playing this music, generally do not give it up 5 years down the line - this is not tuneaerobics. This is a life sentence. They start as they mean to finish. Thus etiquette and approaches to new sessions are not the kind of thing you groan about the memory a decade on! Take it from me - were I to groan as such, there'd be no shutting me up!
--The point being, how are these protocols conducted elsewhere than SE London?
I wouldnt join a session if I didnt have an 'in' so to speak. I will only sit in on one if I know someone there or if 'I know someone who knows someone there'. A kind of connection if you will. Of course this doesnt really make much difference as everybody knows everybody else here, its a very tiny scene I guess I never really had to break into it either as my father was a muso and everybody knew me anyway. But its like that time at the Woodsman, I only came because we knew Andybanjos.
When I went to Galway I knew a couple of people and met other people through them etc.
Only ever done it once, Danny but here's what I did:
1) I hung around here reading for a few months.
2) I chit-chatted on-line a bit with bb, so that I had a knowledgeable contact.
3) I then showed up at the session sans fiddle and waggled my antennae regarding whether or not there were special seating arrangements and other such local preferences that should be respected.
4) I made sure my beginner status was known
5) after sussing out that Dow and bb were really helpful and didn't mind being asked questions, I asked off-line for some tune names that were popular/acceptable/not done-to-death at that session.
6) when I did turn up with fiddle, I didn't play until asked, I listened quite happily and certainly didn't expect the session to slow down to my pace.
I really don't know much about this stuff but I've been on the receiving end of problems caused by those who don't know that they don't know in other areas of music, so I guess I was guided by those bad experiences!
Danny, looks like you got all the points covered. Also Tish, when you said don't expect the session to slow down to your pace. Although with friendly people they often will be more than happy to slow to your pace for a tune or two if you are humble and don't play any sets on your own until asked to. That's been my experience.
Back in October under the Ban the Bodhran discussion I put in my pennyworth "I believe there is still a certain etiquette to observe when joining a session as an unknown player no matter what instrument you play.
Generally I would keep the instrument in it's "cage" and discreetly out of sight.
Listen to the session at least long enough to get a feel for the styles and abilities of the players.
Ask quietly during a lull whether your instrument would fit in.
If the invitation seems begrudging, don't bother."
I was over west of Clifden in Galway a few weeks ago with the dreaded roundy thing hidden, or so I thought" at my feet.
I had just about decided to avoid the ignominy of a refusal or a begrudging "if you must" when the fiddle player spotted the roundy yoke and actually invited me in. (Is this a first for tub thumpers?) Got into a great gig in Galway town the next night as a result. Moral: don't be too shy just be discreet. Most trad. musicians are dacent folk unless riled.
I wait until the end of a set, make sure there is not already more than one backer. Then I smile and ask if I can join in. If they say yes, then I sit down and play. If they say no, my smile fades and I swear and overturn their table. Then I run away.
Here's a tip. If you actually want to play NEVER take your instrument (but do make sure it's within fetching distance, like in the car or hotel room!). If you turn up with an instrument you are in effect asking if you can play in the session. What you want is for them to be asking YOU to come and play at their session. So I always sit near the musicians and ask a few questions about tunes they're playing. In the less 'music-touristy' parts of Ireland particularly, the fact that you are actually listening to what they are playing, and can comment on the tunes or style, virtually marks you out as a musician. But don't volunteer this information. Let them prise it out of you! Your reticence will rouse their interest. Where's yer flute? they will ask. Why didn't you bring it? You live in Oxford? You must know Pat O'Flannnel - he lives in Willesden.
I once had a couple of really top-notch players in a pub near KiltyClougher trying to persuade me to drive all the way back to BlackLion to get my flute and join them (my flute was actually in the car, but I decided it was better not to get it out because - a. They had obviously built up a somewhat overexaggerated notion of my fluting ability - and b. in the previous few hours that we'd been searching for some music, I'd visited several pubs and had consumed about eight pints of Guinness and could barely stand up).
English sessions and maybe bigger sessions in Ireland probably require a more formal approach though
Andee, re playing a few tunes at my pace, that's exactly what has happened. And I like Ottery's idea re not taking an instrument - I took mine in the second week only after a clear invitation to do so.
I don't go to sessions normally, as I believe in Groucho Marx's comment that he would not want to join any club that would have him as a member. Also because, when I first started to play ITM, and even though unwittingly I strictly observed session etiquette, (which as far as I can see is no more than ordinary good manners), I found sessions to be intimidating, unwelcoming and not much fun. Despite this, as it would not be too difficult for me to get to, I had been tempted to watch Danny's Thursday night session from a safe distance; nearly went this week in fact. However, reading Danny's posting reminded me why I don't go - I get the impression that ITM musicians feel that they will turn into pumpkins at midnight if they are forced to have any contact with players they feel are less good than themselves. I guess that sessions can continue to do without me!
I hope you're kidding, Jane, because if you aren't, then you're missing out on most of the best crack in the universe!
You're right about the manners thing, of course -- session etiquette is indeed only good manners. Defining good manners is the rub for most people. Generally if you go with the Irish version you're fine.
Jane - if you're referring to the Blythe - I'd have thought that is a fairly INclusive session...I know some which are much more EXclusive. THere's nothing anyone can do if you don't want to be a member of the "club" - other than yourself. Why don't you write a bit more about yourself on your description?!?
What I initially put up on this thread was basically a few autobiographical notes, which might serve newer people who are not aware of these unwritten codes. They weren't intended to be intimidating - quite the opposite, actually... more a survival guide - because I have to cringe sometimes when I think of the sessions I used to go along to which were led by great musicians (not the time for name dropping!) - so I think you'll find the Blythe on Thursdays a better place to be, than sat in front of the telly or practicing in the kitchen.
Come along! We wanna hear ye, girl!!
(or just come along and listen) - as long as you're not a "non-musician"-in-disguise who thinks it's ok to tear into people who have played for decades...Beware. These creatures are known to exist. Be very afraid.
If you want to introduce yourself to one of our sessions then just stand around with your instrument and a pint. You'll be asked what your instrument is and then promptly ivited to join in.
We here give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
So................ ye are all very welcome to join in.
If any of ye are ever anywhere near Co Down then drop me a line.
All this politeness is very well if you've got all the time in the world. I'm all for good manners. But what do you recommend then to a visitor from outside the area/country who can' t come back the following week? Hang around and try to make contact for three hours and then possibly play for half an hour? I think Jane has a point about intimidating in-crowds.
And: what do you do at festivals?
Kuec raises a good question. My answer would be: depends on the session. If it's over your head, leave your instrument in its case and enjoy a good listen. Just because there's a session doesn't mean it's fair game for every muso who walks in the door. And if you can't enjoy a session without playing, then you might want to re-examine your attitude.
But if you realize that you can play at their level, and it appears to be an open session, then I'd ask straight out to join in. Explain that you're passing through and would enjoy a few tunes. How they respond will take it from there.
Of course, you can always make an arse out of yourself and never go back. But this community is at once world-wide and very small. Don't be surprised if word of your exploits preceeds you.
I have followed Otterys suggestion before now - leave it in the car and see if its worth stopping.
I don't know whether I like the idea of "musicians" getting into conversation with sessioneers, gaining their confidence and being coy about what instrument they actually play. Then when invited, fetching a bodhran out of the car.
No, I'm not kidding, I wish I was. Danny, I didn't understand your last sentence of your last posting on this thread - whom are you saying I should be very afraid of, and under what circumstances? This certainly doesn't sound very encouraging for musicians who find sessions intimidating, but perhaps you didn't mean it quite like that.
Ah Jane, I empathize with you, and I agree, going to sessions (at least til you get more familiar with a particular one, and hence more comfortable, is very intimidating. But I refuse to give in to that--I will stay home and practice til I am good enough if need be, but even so, there comes a time when you've got to join in, even if you feel you're not there yet. And maybe most of us won't know when there is anyway, so you just gotta do it. It's too much fun and so exciting to be part of it not to. I get so nervous that I am shaking sometimes when I walk into the bar, and then, through the smoke and clatter of glasses I hear the music, faint at first, and then getting louder and I remember why I came there in the first place--the music is magic and keeps drawing me back despite my self-doubt. Even on a bad night, I walk away having learned something, and with my head reeling with tunes...
Jane, you can disregard Danny's last sentence. It's something of an inside comment, not directed at musicians.
It does help to know in advance, though, that some sessions aren't as welcoming as others. If you walk in on one of those, don't take it personally--likely they treat everyone the same way. All you have to do is move on and keep looking for a session that invites you in and maes you feel at home, or at least lets you learn as you go until you're a full-on contributor.
I dont see anything in any of Danny's posts that would lead anyone to believe it was a 'closed' or 'intimidating' session - if it were closed, you can bet that he wouldnt go around mentioning it here all the time
Anyways - its common sense - as long as you remain humble and not full of yourself you'll be grand. I went to Danny's session a couple of times and they were a grand bunch and not unfriendly or closed at all.
I have to say - Tish - full points she did it the right way - and was completely humble and at the same time had loads of enthusiam. Not like Poncho boy who I'm sad to say has taken to coming in every week with 50 or so friends - very irritating indeed.
Thanks, bb! But then, as someone once said, I have so much to be humble about 8>) Was Ponchowhistler there with fifty of his closest friends last week as well?
Yes - and then he came up to me and said 'I just want to thank you for your music, Ive really enjoyed listening to it over the past year' blah blah blah. We havent even had the session for a year and he has only been about 4 times and that was all in the last 8 weeks. Maybe there are magical fairies playing music in his head! He is just plain weird!
Actually, I wouldn't mind being home right now to be honest, Ponchoboy or no Ponchoboy. I've managed to get on the wrong side of an extremely aggressive and frightening-looking member of the Yakuza (Japanese mafia for those who don't know) who's probably armed and an expert at martial arts for all I know. I'm on edge the whole time just walking down the street, especially if I hear a motorbike coming up behind me, and I've been told by my friends to go into hiding. Again, I've told the people in my hostel that if I get knifed or gunned down in a drive-by then they're to e-mail my parents and apologise or whatever! bb, if you ever come travelling with me, you're certainly sure to have an interesting time - for some reason these things keep happening to me. God the things I have to do to get a degree *sigh*...
Jane ... As another of the regulars at The Blythe Hill session, please feel free to turn up any week - with your instrument preferably - and join us. The Blythe Hill session is a pretty mixed-ability group. There are those among the group (you know who your are!) who know zillions of tunes and can whack them out with power and confidence at a fair oul' lick. There are others, myself included, whose tune inventory is more limited and who lack the ability of the better players in the bunch. Doesn't matter! Of all the sessions I've been to, the Blythe Hill one is one of the more welcoming. Andee's comments above ring very true ... until you've actually experienced the pleasure of being part of a set where other musicians buoy you along, where you buoy others along, where the musicians listen out for each other, then you've got a lot to look forward to! Give it a crack, anyway, sure! Tell yourself it's for one night only ... what's there to lose?
I went down to another session in S.London a while back - during the summer, actually, when numbers were thin on the ground. There were already 2 or 3 flute players there plus one box and one pipes. As I approached the session table, the leader, whom I know, and who is not known for his tact (but is actually OK, really), and who is also a flute player said outloud "Oh no, not another flute player!" - and he was serious! I just laughed and took my position, undeterred. I joined in, played several tunes & I got chatting to some of the heads there and they were fine, even the leader. That said, I haven't been back! - but mostly because it's on a Tuesday, and it's a bit of a trek. If I had a free Tuesday and fancied a tune I probably would return, though.
Good god, Mark, how the hell did you manage to do that? You DO get yourself into the most interesting situations. You'd really better write a book someday...
At the risk of being accused of trying to get inside someone else's head, I suspect that Jane R's concern (and she can correct me if I'm wrong) was not so much that barbed comments such as the one she drew attention to might be directed at her, but that they're out there in the first place, which I have to say is for me one of the most unattractive, and (more importantly) evidently counterproductive, aspects of the session (and thesession ) scene.
Members (especially 'leaders') of in-crowds rarely feel the need to acknowledge that such in-crowds exist. Those who do not 'know their place', in the insidious sense of the expression, are frequently made to feel excluded. Why do some thesession members assume that people who've spent their entire lives appreciating (even, for all they know, playing) music, without feeling the need to strut their stuff in public (houses), have no insight into music and musicianship? I don't see anything in the rules of thesession that say you have to be a card-carrying pub session player to log on; as far as I can see, the only requirements are an active interest in ITM, and the ability to refrain from 'foul language or aggressive behaviour'. On which point, our esteemed webfuehrer can correct me if I'm wrong
I think what Danny was trying to say was that not going to sessions is fine if that is what you want to do, but if you do go to a session, don't assume that you can tell the people there what they should or shouldn't be doing. Surely that's just common sense? I took the "be afraid" bit to mean that non-session-going people frequently do turn up to sessions and do this. And that (I have to agree with Danny) is extremely annoying.
You can have an insight into the music and musicianship without going to sessions, but there's no substitute for the real thing. And for most session-goers that has nothing to do with "strutting one's stuff", it's about having fun whilst contributing suitably to the music and craic as a whole. Believe me, you're trying to read between the lines of these posts but there's nothing there. The only way for Jane to find out for sure is to quit whinging and get herself down to Danny's session instead of judging people beforehand, otherwise she *will* end up being unwelcome.
I know for myself, I'm just trying to share the joy of it and be encouraging to Jane and others out there--lord knows I need some of that encouragement myself more often than not!
At the risk of getting embroiled in this one, it seems to me from reading her bio and some of her threads that Jane is an committed muso with sensible things to say and who happens to play piano. Now, there seem to be a couple of problems with that:
a) Given that at one time traditional music was recorded with
piano backing, what is the attitude to piano in a session?
b) It might be pretty difficult to lug a piano to the Blyth.
Maybe I have got it wrong. In which case please enlighten.
Speaking personally, I find piano accompaniment, indeed piano lead, highly listenable! Some great piano recordings around at the moment - Padraic O'Reilly's stuff; Donna Long's "Handprints" album; the occasional track on Josephine Keegan's latest. Lugging one of the beasts along to a session is a bit of abind, mind you!
Andee, I agree totally. Jane needs encouragement, but she can't ask for anything more of Danny than to say "come along, we wanna hear ye girl!!" and "see you Thursday, Jane". One thing Danny doesn't do is mince his words, so when he says that I'm sure he means it genuinely. I'd say get out there, play some wicked music and have a great time. Hopefully one day I'll make it to his session when I get back to the UK for my hols, then I'll have all the time in the world to take the p*ss out of him in person instead of online
In fact if I was to ask Danny if I could turn up to his session, he's probably tell me to feck off, but I don't care, I'd just turn up anyway and pour Guinness into his D/G bellows.
...Also, piano accompaniment sounds great in a session - but there isn't one in the Blythe, nor the Woodman - although there used to be, and was occasionally used as accompaniment, until a coup[le of years ago when Demot proudly announced he'd got rid of it!
Whaaat?
And dow - it's easy to take the p!ss out of me - everybody does - even me! But why come 12,000 miles to do it when you can do it online? Also I never ever take the p!ss out of anyone else....I'm always deadly serious...honest....
you don't have to convince me as to whether a piano 'belongs' in a session ... one of the whistle players here in portland is also a fine session piano player. she sometimes brings an electronic keyboard to the alberta street session, and her playing is really enjoyable.
Seems to me the difference between a muso who quietly listens at the bar or in the circle, with or without an instrument, & a punter, is that the punter doesn't ever go home & play the tunes themselves. Sure, punters are welcome, but as soon as they start slagging someone who actually tries to create the thing they *appreciate* so much, well that's a whole other issue. It's the act of risk-taking & putting yourself out there that earns the respect of fellow musos, not the act of sitting back & appreciating, or worse, criticizing. You can do that alone in the comfort of your own living room, just as simply as logging on & typing such comments on a website like this. Come on into the trenches, or careful where you tread. Sounds like Jane, who already plays the music, is in a much more enviable position than any punter who shows up every week without a tune to their credit.
I like the piano accompianment, too. It makes me think of the "old days" of Irish music. I guess since I have a Cd of old fiddle 78's put onto Cd and almost all of the tracks have piano.
Danny, I agree that's the most practical solution but there's nothing to beat having a real piano in the pub for a session. There's one in the Royal Oak in Edinburgh but, unfortunately, most of the sessions are crap there-though that's not the fault of the piano.
Interestingly, I heard some gossip that the organisers of Fiddle 2003 had been complaining about the expense of hiring pianos for some of the guests last weekend. I know that keyboards could be used instead but, for such an event, it's nice to have the real thing.
"Sure, punters are welcome" might sound just a wee bit begrudging. With no punters, there'd be no venue; with no venue, there'd be no session, surely?
If only the act of risk-taking did always earn the respect of fellow players, this discussion would never have taken the turn it has. As Danny asked: is there truly any such thing as an 'open' session? Session etiquette should surely amount to no more than good manners, but should one really have to resort to obsequious behaviour or out-and-out sycophancy? Evidently what encouragement there is to be had around sessions is sometimes experienced hand-in-hand with enough intimidation (even if "only" verbal) to keep away at least one person (and that's already one too many) who loves the music, and would love to join in. Are lovers of the music naive to come to the sessions believing the music-making will be anarchic (in the best sense of the word)? Perhaps so, for you find unpleasant people everywhere in society, and gatherings of musicians aren't exempt.
Ah, but the slagging, it's an essential aspect of the session 'scene'! .... ;op
Unfortunately, the more "open" and "welcoming" a session is the more likely it is to attract all sort of oddballs eg budding singers, bangers of different types of drums, whistly types playing odd sounding instruments in obscure keys, poets etc etc etc. All this is fair enough if all you want is a bit of a fun evening but not if you want to have a serious tune session.
Having said that, most sessions (even the top level) will welcome you if you know your place; e.g play only if you know the tunes or least in a manner not to put everyone else off, be considerate to the regular members and "go with the flow" rather than trying to impress them with a solo performance. Also, the choice of instrument is important. As discussed before, some are more welcome than others in larger numbers.
Oh yes, I agree that if you go to a strange session you should suss things out before sitting down with the musicians and ask first. In many cases, one of the musicians will spot your instrument and invite you over anyway but don't depend on it.
Incidentally, in referring to "whistly types", I wasn't meaning the normal flute and tin whistle players who frequent session but those exponents of exotic instruments who you have to see to believe. Didgeridoos can be another menace. )
But shouldn't regular session members act with the same consideration to their fellow session members, whether or not they be newcomers? "ie play only if they know the tunes or at least in a manner not to put everyone else off, be considerate to the regular members and 'go with the flow' rather than trying to impress them with a solo performance."
Nothing against bodhran players, either, Joe. The bodhran is quite an acceptable and standard instrument compared to some of the things I've seen although one or two bodhrans playing at a time is probably enough.
I think most regular session members do behave appropriately although there can be some exceptions. Sometimes, they are tolerated because of WHO they are, maybe they've just had a drink or two to many that night or, possibly, the others are to nice to tell them.
OK. I'm going to say it. Something many ppl have been thinking, but haven't had the courage to say. Nasty, your points are all valid. But if you're just a punter, your opinion immediately loses credibility no matter how long you've been 'hanging around the session scene.' Of course sessions would continue without pubs! They never started in pubs to begin with. My question goes back to Danny's original thread. Have *you* ever taken the risk of introducing yourself into a session? Do you go home & play the tunes & fantasize what it might be like to finally break into a circle of musos & become accepted as a player? The muso who risks playing the Kesh (sorry!) in a session for the first time has more to contribute to this thread than punters who sit at the bar & watch week after week as newbies either succeed or go down in flames. Maybe you should start a new thread, 'Do you think sessions are a spectator sport?' Perhaps the responses there will prove me wrong. Sorry.
With no punters, the session would go right on it's own merry way, as a matter of fact. A session is not a performance, and never has been. It is there only for the satisfaction of the players. Anyone there to watch and enjoy may do so, but the players won't give a flying about their opinions of a thing, I'm afraid, or they shouldn't.
Now, a pub owner who doesn't care about the music may see it a bit different. He is after all in the business to be in business. But the session members don't, shouldn't, and shan't.
...and we've had punters telling us that "the music was nice, but it's really annoying when the fiddlers' bows don't all go in the same direction" (true punter quote).
Personally, I enjoy having a crowd in the pub while we're playing--all that conversation and clinking of glasses makes nice background music for the tunes. But I'd rather they didn't turn into an audience and start applauding every set. And it's no fun when they all roar around the telly, or just roar amongst themselves so loud that we can't hear ourselves play. And the punter who offers an unsolicited, pointed critique of our playing (beyond the occasional word of encouragement) is at best good for a laugh, and a reminder that some people don't understand what a session is.
Sorry, but the notion that sessions wouldn't exist without punters or pubs is just the strangest, funniest thing I've read here in a long while.
The undercurrent in this thread is the implication that sessions exist for people's enjoyment and betterment. That sessions "should" entertain punters and encourage newbies. But to me, those are minor (and in some cases, perhaps even undesirable) side effects of a session. In fact, I think it's more accurate to say that we exist for the tunes' enjoyment--sorta "god made people so the tunes would be played."
That said, I'm all for encouraging newbies--that's why I run a slow session, loan my instruments out for people to try, play into tape recorders and minidiscs so people can learn the tunes at home, provide sheet music, etc. But that's not the session. And I'm glad that non-players enjoy listening to the tunes, and that some are even moved to try it themselves. But the difference is that for them, *listening* is the experience. For the players, the tunes themselves are the experience.
Well put, Will. I remember once asking Kevin Glackin how sessions in Dublin deal with newbies. He looked at me as if I was mad and said that they didn't do anything about them.
Quite often, punters complain that we are just "playing for ourselves" and not entertaining them. As you say, Will, they are missing the whole point. If they enjoy the music, that's good and well but it's for the players rather than an audience.
emily_az, Will, whoever: Absolutely no need to apologise. I had thought about specifying pub sessions, but thought it unnecessary (obviously wrongly), since it's my understanding that pub(lic) sessions are what's being discussed on this thread. The comment which I was responding to: "Sure, punters are welcome" could only apply in a situation where punters were present, and it was to such a session that I was referring.
I'm well aware that sessions never started in pubs, and some of the best ones, in my opinion (which FYI I share with some fine musicians), continue to be held in private homes. The newcomer to such a house session would be a guest, there by invitation, and would be treated with all due respect, not merely tolerated (they would be in my home, at any rate), and certainly never expected to act so fawningly as described by Danny. I'd be thoroughly ashamed if anybody thought it necessary.
As has been observed many times in various threads, without pubs, a hell of a lot of people would be stuck for a place to hold a session. Thesession members have bewailed the total absence of sessions in parts of the world where there are houses (indeed all sorts of buildings) a-plenty. I've seen it argued many times on these threads that truly involved punters can only contribute to the craic. Nobody here suggested that the players should play up to an "audience". Or that they shouldn't be playing for themselves. But if a pub landlord isn't convinced that the session is good for trade, then he might well go off the idea altogether; I've seen many comments from players on this site that demonstrate that such a situation would be of concern to them. This much can be acknowledged without getting anywhere near suggesting that trade should be a player's primary concern.
If you're of the opinion that a valid point becomes any less valid simply according to whose mouth (or keyboard) it comes out of, well, frankly I'm astonished. As Joe Quinn said, (if you don't disregard his opinion on account of his being a bodhr
Uf, they suck, Will. Actually, I suppose they're not doing too badly. Of course, I don't follow football, though I make nachos and serve drinks and such for those who do.
Didn't the Patriots win their game with the Broncos, Joyce? I seem to remember that they did. There was a lot of yelling at the time.
It's sad being the only sports-impaired person in an entire city full of sports-mania. I don't even know how the Avs have done, although I rather assume that the Rockies suck because they have for a while.
I once made an entire room of people laugh watching a football game. I'd been asking my usually num-num questions ("why did he blow the whistle on that?" "what's the penalty for" "what is a 'first down'?". I looked at the screen and everyone was wandering around, and as I handed over the most recent plate of nachos I asked, "what's happening now?" And the answer was, "Well, the game's over."
Yes, Zina, we have pro athletes up here, just not in any sports you're likely to see on the telly. There's sled dog racing, and ice fishing, and steer wrestling. Not to mention log rolling and sheep dipping....
Ice fishing is a pro sport? And do they dress the steer up in gold diapers and leather vests and such? And is this the sort of log rolling on the water, or some kind of weird Montana version on dry land? Do they actually dip the sheep *into* something, or is that something I don't want to ask?
Interestingly, the training regimen for all of these sports is the same: repeated exposure to sub-zero cold, blunt trauma, and alcohol, followed by more alcohol.
Actually, steer wrestling comes after the main event--calf wrestling. You start with a calf, a cowboy, and a knife....
...Sounds fun - can you introduce yourself "fawningly" to this activity?
And how do the punters interact?
I get my other kicks in the winter, out of running 5-6 miles through muddy parkland, countryside, of a Saturday, but if there weren't an audience I wouldn't be interested :~}
See, now, I have quite a fondness for steer wrestling as well, however I have never done it myself & have no idea how I'd begin to go about it. I enjoy hanging around with steer wrestlers, esp the cowboy style wrestlers from the west, love kicking back a few drinks & discussing the merits of steer wrestling, history of s.w., heroes of s.w., styles of s.w., etc. However I would never dream of stepping in to tell a group of steer wrestlers how they should treat each other, the steers or their groupies. It can be such a closed circle type group, but you definitely have to be a wrestler to be included, or at least respected. Even the rodeo clowns have something important to offer, too bad they're ridiculed so much. But most steer wrestlers agree, until you've gotten into the corral, y'aint got much call to be standing around telling folks how it should or shouldn't be done. Maybe someday I'll try wrestling a calf, lord knows I know many supportive s.w.'s who keep trying to coax me out there, but until then, I'm going to watch, listen & learn, & remain part of the steer wrestling scene without appearing to be an arm chair know-it-all about something I'm too afraid to try myself.
Oh hallo Joyce, nice to see you back. Hope this doesn't put you off Frankie Kennedy.
Oh hallo Daniel, seems I answered your q before I even got round to reading it, how convenient. My time, is time to make scalloped potatoes for tomorrow's feast & annual re-enactment of the scalping of white ppl.
Ive been to the dentist before, maybe I should tell him exactly how its done This is a great thread lads - you all totally crack me up - who says trad music is boring! Although Lord knows how we got onto steer wrestling (which Ive never heard of) is it like wrestling cows?
NastyWG, FWIW, toe xplain myself a bit better...I realise my first post might have read as though I approached the session with trepidation or cap-in-hand or whatever the word is, and actually, I didn't.
I did my best to show good manners but I expected good manners in return. They told me it wasn't a closed session and they knew I was a beginner. Under those circumstances, if someone had said "come along" and then said "gizatunewillya" and then said, "your playing's scheidt", I wouldn't have been back. Doormat I ain't. I don't feel apologetic at all about being a newbie and the reason for that is that I know I've been polite and considerate, so any rubbish I might get from there on is undeserved and I wouldn't take it.
The session has been as considerate of me as I was of it, so I don't think of it as humble pie.
Look, I don't know you, & you don't know me, & I apologize for any misunderstanding between us. But I am probably the farthest thing from 'nasty' you'll come across, as several members here can attest to, as I've met them & enjoyed their company as well as those of their friends & family. I'm no rabid anti-punter, though some of my comments of late may paint me as such, & I'm sorry for that. I also think it's fair to say most players start out as punters, as I did, & which I think would be grand for you to consider as well.
As you correctly say, "I don't see anything in the rules of thesession that say you have to be a card-carrying pub session player to log on...[....] Ah, but the slagging, it's an essential aspect of the session 'scene'! .... ;op."
IMHO, then, if you can't take the slagging as a non-muso on a site primarily designed for musos, then perhaps you should restrict your comments to threads that fall within the realm of your experience, ie music appreciation & not music participation. As a flute player, I don't participate in discussions about bowed triplets or fickle reeds. Sorry for any bluntness, that's just my opinion.
& FWIW, it totally makes every difference whose mouth (or keyboard) a valid point or opinion originates from. I'm not going to consult a car mechanic about my lower right abdominal pain, though he may be accurate in surmising it could be my appendix. I won't consult a sean nos singer about crans, or a punter on how to interact in a players' circle. If I want advice on how to support the craic without an instrument, I'll be sure to start a new thread.
Again, apologies, I'm signing off for the moment. I'm tired of feeling like the bad guy.
My goodness Emin, reading your first post I would have sworn you were Bridie! Guys, I have the answer to this. There's nothing for it, we need to introduce an international "session entrance exam" system like you get for some universities, that would solve everything
Em, I don't think that's cow *wrestling*; possibly you are thinking of cow *tipping*...the falling over on top of, that is. Mark, glad to hear from you, you realize now that if you let too long go by, I shall start having panic attacks that your Japanese mafioso has done away with you...
I've said this before, somewhere. But some "punters" are more integral to certain sessions than some of the players. I call to mind one session (in fact a group of closely-linked sessions) in Northern Ireland where the lynchpin is a non-musician. (He has tried, bless him. He struggled a while with banjo, then concertina, but never made it as far as a tune.) His appreciation of the music knows no bounds, however. His organising abilities, his encouragement, his ability to coach good music from beginning players are all worthy of note. Don't know the nameof the tune you were playing? Paul's yer man! Got a new reel but can't think of something to follow it? Paul's yer man! Need a loan of this or that CD? Paul's yer man! Phone numbers, lifts home, the lend of an odd fiver ...
(And let's not forget Seamus Quinn's sleeve notes on Sl
That's very fair Aidan, thank you. Personally, I would prefer not to receive a lecture on session etiquette from someone who has never actually participated in one. It sounds like yer man actually has tried, much like George O'Brien, president of the Arizona Irish Music Society. Organizes everything in the state, lovely lovely man, not a man for the tunes, but has struggled through many a slow sesh on the whistle, bless his heart, but to very minimal success, but we love & respect him all the more for trying & for his humility. In fact, it helps him appreciate the music & the musicians that he's supporting even more. *shrug*
I realise now, I should have kept my mouth shut when the builders were telling me that RSJ's weren't necessary when I was having my house extended .... of course, my house would now be in a state of collapse, but at least I could have consoled myself with the knowledge that I'd observed the protocols ....
Tish - that's precisely what I was suggesting; that newcomers are deserving of the same consideration as established players. Not a crumb of humble pie to be had in such a situation.
I suppose punters get caught up in the excitement and want to participate somehow/any old how. And sure, why not?
Didn’t have time to post any more last night as was out at A sesh with A button accordian player & guitarist. The punters bought us beers. Bliss. We were positively begging for instructions after that from the punters on how to get home.
Upon a time, once, while drunk and 18, a bunch of us found we'd wandered into a field in Germany. This wasn't as much of a suprise as you might think; we had started off at our tent on another field quite nearby, which was also in Germany. But this was a new tent. Field, I mean. And it had cows. Or *a* cow, at the very least... Having but recently watched The Simpsons episode where some sleeping Guernseys had been unceremoniously tipped, I decided that being 18 and drunk, it would be a great adventure to tip a cow myself.
So I (everybody, sing with me!) tiptoed... through the cowpats... (stop singing, everybody!) and gave said sleeping cow a good old push. Except it wasn't sleeping (awwwww) and it wasn't a cow (oooooh!) it was a great ruddy bull (aaaah!) with bloody big horns (eeeee!). And it wasn't happy to see me at all.
Whether or not I survived to tell the tale, I'll leave to your imagination... along with this nugget of wisdom to all you movers and shakers out there: going in for those rare stock tips might seem like a good idea at the time, but one way or another you'll come to realise how much bullsh*t there is out there.
(sorry, I just had to - and the story's true, btw - okay, okay, I'm going already!)
I remember going to the Woodman 3 years ago. I played mandolin (now moved to fiddle) and was way too shy to bring the instrument in. I used to come up to Danny as he was the most approachable musician there I felt, and I used to ask him the name of every other tune. Sometimes he would say "I told you last week" but would tell me nonetheless but he would always say hello when I walked through the door. I eventually went in with the mandolin and was invited by their excellent banjo player to join in. I was sweating with fear the first time round but have had the best time of my life playing there, since. I go to the Thursday session set up by Danny, as he invited me and a couple of Sunday session pals to attend and feel part of the session nucleus. That said, we are always pleased to see new players as they bring fresh sets for us to play and the mood of each session can be so different from one week to the next. I have been to other sessions, with a friend and our instruments, and the musicians there always come up to us and ask us to join, even when we say that we're still learning. We tend to follow Danny's common sense set or rules and we get asked back, so attitude matters nearly as much as musicianship.
Cath - and even one of the 'less approachable'(?) players saw fit to lend you a fiddle for a year or more, until you finally persuaded him to let you buy it from him.
Q, my former boss swears to cow tipping. He says that you have to take a serious run up at it, like you would as a linebacker, but if the cow's really asleep and if it's not a bull, he says it goes over. We accused him of romanticizing, but he never gave in.
I have to wonder (pardon me for doing it out loud) whether Nastywee really meant to imply--above, with her housebuilder's analogy--that without her advice and critques, a session would collapse. Notwithstanding the examples cited above, there are few non-players in the world who are so vital to a session, and even they would not likely crow about it, even if it were true.
Of course, there's a possible flaw in Nasty's analogy: the house she was speaking up for was her own, while the local session "belongs" to the players, if a session can actually "belong" to anyone. By that, I mean that if the musos decide not to show up, no amount of punters is going to make the session magically appear. Or if the musocs sitting in the circle are in agreement that they all want to get drunk that night and play like shite, just because they feel like it, then that's their perogative.
And it would be funny (if they're happy drunks) or just plain rude (if they're serious drunks) if a punter came up and said "You lads sound like shite. You haven't played a true note all night, and you might as well put up a lost-and-found poster to help you find that stray rhythm." Or anything to that effect. Even a gentle "That set would sound better if you slowed down a notch" or "your whistle is sharp" seems to me to be *not* the place of the reasonable and prudent punter to say. Even the players themselves usually think long and hard before making such comments.
For the life of me, I can't understand why any punter would *want* to say such a thing, but I know it happens. Perhaps it's "free speech" outweighing discretion. Granted, it's one thing if you paid dear cash for your auditorium seats and the "band" billed itself as professional musicians, or if you're the music critic for the local newspaper. The only other purpose I can fathom behind it would be to hammer home a personal gripe, and then I question whether the session is a good place to do such a thing. If I were in the circle, I'd ask them to take it outside and let the other players be.
Will, I just thought the analogy was that it isn't always *totally* true that you can't have anything worthwhile to say about a topic in which you're not a practitioner.
But then I'm catching up in a hurry before rushing off to a mind-numbing training course, I might have missed something.
Now as for cow-tipping, careful, there must be some card-carrying animal rights people round here, WWIII might erupt 8>)
But Tish, I doubt there's really anyone here that needs to be reminded that non-practitioners can add value.
On the other hand, non-practitioners sometimes misunderstand the purpose, context, underlying reasons, and/or social interplay in a situation, and so may create an unwelcome distraction by speaking or behaving inappropriately. I've seen it on construction sites, steer wrestling, and in sessions. For example, I've been in a session when a punter walked up and said, "That's a nice tune--you should hear the Chieftains play it--they make it sound awesome." Well, thanks for reminding me that I'm not Martin Fay or Sean Keane, and that our little circle isn't as talented and polished as Paddy Moloney and company.... Sure that's a minor faux pas, but add to it all the requests for Dueling Banjos or Orange Blossom Special, and the drunk who knocks your table and sends all the pints to the floor, and the fan who finds the remote control and turns the telly volume all the way up and the cell phone call in the middle of a solo song and the kid with the djembe and the lady with the tambourine and the violinist who would never stoop to bring her violin but finds time to offer advice on how to synchronize our bowing, with the help of sheet music....well, you get my point.
What it amounts to in my book is that people (players and non-players alike) should use a sense of discretion when they consider barging into a session, just as they should when overhearing a conversation and thinking about joining in. The players (or conversants) aren't obligated to accommodate someone just because they walked in the door.
Its almost like, we (I assume) would all never walk up to a session with say, Siobhan Peoples, Tola Custy and Murty Ryan and offer advice (I hope). This thread its getting a bit tiresome to be honest(except for the cow tipping part!). If a punter did the things that are happening in this thread in a session that I was in I, would get very irritated, would not be impressed. Now that that is out of the way think I'll log onto a nuclear physics site and offer my advice - well why not? I'm sure I have some vaulable info to offer them
ouch! Below the belt beebs!, sorry lads - cant help it - in real life I say things like this to people - not going to pretend to be nice about it when I'm not. Dow lucky poncho boy didnt turn up last night - I wouldve et the head of him!
Just sick of people yabbering about things they havent a clue about.
When youve struggled with music and strived to improve and been totally frustrated but kept on going, and put up with comments like and I quote 'you are a bad fiddle player, you sound like somebody killing a cat' - true quote to me when I had been playing about 6 months. By a *NON* musician in fact. Then maybe, just maybe you can comment, until then I just dont see the point - we are all here to offer helpful advice to people about tunes, sessions etc, how can some people offer advice when they havent ever sat in on a session?
Ive been around sessions my whole life - i would never have dreamed on commenting on the music until I started playing - and even now I'm just a beginer compared to my friends so I comment on basic stuff like 'how to join a session' nothing on technique or anything!
Opinions are like a$%^&holes...everyone has one, but that doesn't mean you should share your opinions ( & a$%^&holes) to the first group of people sittng down havin a tune and a pint.
There are many valid points in here (not least the rare stock tips)...but there is no need for bursting the thermometer about it.
I can see there are at least two types of sessions - one were the silence surrounding the music is integral - and another where the craic and the noise from the till and the mad poets and djembes and didgeridoos aqnd singers et al, actually enhace the state of play.
Keep reelin'
GW
Agreed Will, I wasn't commenting on whether or not anyone needs to hear it - I just didn't think her comment went any further than that. And emily_az, I'm not disagreeing with your point either, in case it looked from my last post as though I was. Hope your flu is better!
Emily - tell us about the annual renactment of the scalping of the white people - please!!!! This I need to know about Much more interesting than cow tipping.
Well I enjoy hanging around with scalp-eating cannibals, but I would never dream..... NO NO NO JUST KIDDING! Navajos never scalped anybody, at least I don't think so.
Well Tish, as I've mentioned before on this site (ad nauseum it feels like), & which could very likely be a huge factor to my recent crankiness, I live on an Indian reservation in the middle of nowhere. Today was Thanksgiving, so not only was I homesick, I had to work all day at the hospital, 7am-7pm, well actually I didn't get home til 9, just a bit ago. The staff is about half Navajo, half non-Navajo, & it is quite a thing to sit down & break bread with folks on the day that is supposed to comemorate the Pilgrims & peace & all that shite, & that your ancestors might have forced these folks naked at gunpoint to do horrific things, etc. I have long hair, I love to tease the Navajo on Thanksgiving about scalping me, this is my third Thanksgiving here (sign of the Cross), & it never loses its shock value or implicit humor. Gosh, I guess that is pretty dark... Anyway, today, sadly, we all brought in a full spread, turkey, stuffing, the works, but we had 4 deliveries back to back to back to back, including a C/section between 12:50pm & 3:53pm (3 boys & a girl) so our lovely turkey & stuffing etc sat untouched until well after change of shift. I ate 2 pieces of pecan pie & a piece of apple pie to make up for everything, & I'm blissfully stuffed & ready to do it all again in 8 hours. Mmm leftovers! So that's all, Native Americans rubbing elbows with the murderous white folk who slew their ancestors only a few generations ago, & celebrating with a turkey. Woooooo time to bust out the Christmas crap!
Oh my lordy lord, I can't believe nobody has pulled Beebs up for saying she would've "et the head of" Ponchoboy! I didn't know you'd taken a liking to him Beebs. Just make sure that you do it somewhere private and not in front of his 50 friends
Yes, but Beebs is a civil cannibal. I'm sure she would've apologized to Ponchoboy while inserting the skewer, and no doubt kept him well basted while roasting his brains out, so to speak. No harm, no foul.....
All this talk of food... Em, I had a dinner invitation once from some people I hardly knew - I had to sit up all pukka and party manners and all that stuff, and they didn't know *anything* about vegetarians and obviously pecan pie was something they'd heard of, so I was served it for main course complete with baked vegetables and gravy over the whole lot. Hope you enjoyed yours more than I did mine.
I'm reminded of a radio programme on excema, where I heard Loius XIV quoted (although the attribution may have been incorrect) as saying that the pleasant torture of having an itch and scratching it, was so exquisite a pleasure, that it should be denied to the poor and mean.
Tish - you were perfectly correct in your interpretation of my analogy, and I suspect that Will is perfectly aware of the fact but just couldn't resist the temptation to be mischievous . If anyone doesn't want to hear my opinions (or see my @r$eho
Yes, but why not just go over in a slump? Or waver a bit and let their knees go all wobbly and fall down sideways? Surely they must lock their knees or something...
Dow - I hope you ought to be thankful that I am nowhere near Japan or I would have to bop you very, very hard with my fiddle bow. You are a cheeky chap and e all know you wouldnt dare do that unless you were 20,000km away from me
Introducing yourself to a new session.
Introducing yourself to a new session.
Introducing yourself to a new session - How does anyone else do this?
I personally would try and identify the key (wo)man, wait until there was sufficient lull between tunes, then go over and with loadsa smiles and good cheer, copious quantities of self deprecation, ask politely if it's ok to hang on for the odd tune...sorry, sorry....but be yourself at the same time.
Then once "in", move in gently, keeping people on your side. Although being cautiously chatty, you must remain coy, but confident. You're a guest, nearly a gatecrasher, at someone else's "open"(?! -is there such a thing?!) session. All the while trying to suss out how the land lies -- not for any Macchiavellian purposes, but so's not to offend any lingering resentments of one party or another.
Have a good store of standards ready to be fired off at a moment's notice.
Remain humble - but of good cheer.
Avoid Loud Persons, for they are a Vexation to the Spirit (The Desiderata)
I'd say also, play it by ear.
Some sessions are finely balanced, and your *assistance* might not always be welcomed....especially if you're a well - immersed player...except as a quiet help to what they've already got. Bless'em, tender wee things.
Others will delight in the "visitation" from tune angels...
I suppose my point is...use yer brain. Act appropriately....and if you can't manage that, don't make it a public spectacle.
Most people who have arrived at playing this music, generally do not give it up 5 years down the line - this is not tuneaerobics. This is a life sentence. They start as they mean to finish. Thus etiquette and approaches to new sessions are not the kind of thing you groan about the memory a decade on! Take it from me - were I to groan as such, there'd be no shutting me up!
--The point being, how are these protocols conducted elsewhere than SE London?
Danny.
# Posted on November 21st 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
I wouldnt join a session if I didnt have an 'in' so to speak. I will only sit in on one if I know someone there or if 'I know someone who knows someone there'. A kind of connection if you will. Of course this doesnt really make much difference as everybody knows everybody else here, its a very tiny scene
I guess I never really had to break into it either as my father was a muso and everybody knew me anyway. But its like that time at the Woodsman, I only came because we knew Andybanjos.
When I went to Galway I knew a couple of people and met other people through them etc.
# Posted on November 21st 2003 by bb
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Only ever done it once, Danny but here's what I did:
1) I hung around here reading for a few months.
2) I chit-chatted on-line a bit with bb, so that I had a knowledgeable contact.
3) I then showed up at the session sans fiddle and waggled my antennae regarding whether or not there were special seating arrangements and other such local preferences that should be respected.
4) I made sure my beginner status was known
5) after sussing out that Dow and bb were really helpful and didn't mind being asked questions, I asked off-line for some tune names that were popular/acceptable/not done-to-death at that session.
6) when I did turn up with fiddle, I didn't play until asked, I listened quite happily and certainly didn't expect the session to slow down to my pace.
I really don't know much about this stuff but I've been on the receiving end of problems caused by those who don't know that they don't know in other areas of music, so I guess I was guided by those bad experiences!
# Posted on November 21st 2003 by Tish
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Danny, looks like you got all the points covered. Also Tish, when you said don't expect the session to slow down to your pace. Although with friendly people they often will be more than happy to slow to your pace for a tune or two if you are humble and don't play any sets on your own until asked to. That's been my experience.
# Posted on November 21st 2003 by Andee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Back in October under the Ban the Bodhran discussion I put in my pennyworth "I believe there is still a certain etiquette to observe when joining a session as an unknown player no matter what instrument you play.
Generally I would keep the instrument in it's "cage" and discreetly out of sight.
Listen to the session at least long enough to get a feel for the styles and abilities of the players.
Ask quietly during a lull whether your instrument would fit in.
If the invitation seems begrudging, don't bother."
I was over west of Clifden in Galway a few weeks ago with the dreaded roundy thing hidden, or so I thought" at my feet.
I had just about decided to avoid the ignominy of a refusal or a begrudging "if you must" when the fiddle player spotted the roundy yoke and actually invited me in. (Is this a first for tub thumpers?) Got into a great gig in Galway town the next night as a result. Moral: don't be too shy just be discreet. Most trad. musicians are dacent folk unless riled.
# Posted on November 21st 2003 by Joe Quinn
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
I wait until the end of a set, make sure there is not already more than one backer. Then I smile and ask if I can join in. If they say yes, then I sit down and play. If they say no, my smile fades and I swear and overturn their table. Then I run away.
# Posted on November 22nd 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
"Keep the box out of site".
Still hard for "tune angels" to make a quiet and discrete entrance when you arrive with big box and two concertinas.
Theological discussion - How many "tune angels" can play on the head of a pin?
# Posted on November 22nd 2003 by geoffwright
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Depends on how many of them are carrying big honking instruments.
# Posted on November 22nd 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Here's a tip. If you actually want to play NEVER take your instrument (but do make sure it's within fetching distance, like in the car or hotel room!). If you turn up with an instrument you are in effect asking if you can play in the session. What you want is for them to be asking YOU to come and play at their session. So I always sit near the musicians and ask a few questions about tunes they're playing. In the less 'music-touristy' parts of Ireland particularly, the fact that you are actually listening to what they are playing, and can comment on the tunes or style, virtually marks you out as a musician. But don't volunteer this information. Let them prise it out of you! Your reticence will rouse their interest. Where's yer flute? they will ask. Why didn't you bring it? You live in Oxford? You must know Pat O'Flannnel - he lives in Willesden.
I once had a couple of really top-notch players in a pub near KiltyClougher trying to persuade me to drive all the way back to BlackLion to get my flute and join them (my flute was actually in the car, but I decided it was better not to get it out because - a. They had obviously built up a somewhat overexaggerated notion of my fluting ability - and b. in the previous few hours that we'd been searching for some music, I'd visited several pubs and had consumed about eight pints of Guinness and could barely stand up).
English sessions and maybe bigger sessions in Ireland probably require a more formal approach though
# Posted on November 22nd 2003 by Ottery
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Andee, re playing a few tunes at my pace, that's exactly what has happened. And I like Ottery's idea re not taking an instrument - I took mine in the second week only after a clear invitation to do so.
# Posted on November 22nd 2003 by Tish
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Dow, do you rip the lid off a tin of spinach, or turn bright green or do a quick costume change in a phone booth or summat before doing this?
# Posted on November 22nd 2003 by Tish
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
I don't go to sessions normally, as I believe in Groucho Marx's comment that he would not want to join any club that would have him as a member. Also because, when I first started to play ITM, and even though unwittingly I strictly observed session etiquette, (which as far as I can see is no more than ordinary good manners), I found sessions to be intimidating, unwelcoming and not much fun. Despite this, as it would not be too difficult for me to get to, I had been tempted to watch Danny's Thursday night session from a safe distance; nearly went this week in fact. However, reading Danny's posting reminded me why I don't go - I get the impression that ITM musicians feel that they will turn into pumpkins at midnight if they are forced to have any contact with players they feel are less good than themselves. I guess that sessions can continue to do without me!
Jane R
# Posted on November 22nd 2003 by LW
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
I hope you're kidding, Jane, because if you aren't, then you're missing out on most of the best crack in the universe!
Generally if you go with the Irish version you're fine.
You're right about the manners thing, of course -- session etiquette is indeed only good manners. Defining good manners is the rub for most people.
# Posted on November 22nd 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Jane - if you're referring to the Blythe - I'd have thought that is a fairly INclusive session...I know some which are much more EXclusive. THere's nothing anyone can do if you don't want to be a member of the "club" - other than yourself. Why don't you write a bit more about yourself on your description?!?
What I initially put up on this thread was basically a few autobiographical notes, which might serve newer people who are not aware of these unwritten codes. They weren't intended to be intimidating - quite the opposite, actually... more a survival guide - because I have to cringe sometimes when I think of the sessions I used to go along to which were led by great musicians (not the time for name dropping!) - so I think you'll find the Blythe on Thursdays a better place to be, than sat in front of the telly or practicing in the kitchen.
Come along! We wanna hear ye, girl!!
(or just come along and listen) - as long as you're not a "non-musician"-in-disguise who thinks it's ok to tear into people who have played for decades...Beware. These creatures are known to exist. Be very afraid.
# Posted on November 22nd 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
If you want to introduce yourself to one of our sessions then just stand around with your instrument and a pint. You'll be asked what your instrument is and then promptly ivited to join in.
We here give everyone the benefit of the doubt.
So................ ye are all very welcome to join in.
If any of ye are ever anywhere near Co Down then drop me a line.
F
# Posted on November 22nd 2003 by breandan
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
All this politeness is very well if you've got all the time in the world. I'm all for good manners. But what do you recommend then to a visitor from outside the area/country who can' t come back the following week? Hang around and try to make contact for three hours and then possibly play for half an hour? I think Jane has a point about intimidating in-crowds.
And: what do you do at festivals?
# Posted on November 23rd 2003 by kuec
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Kuec raises a good question. My answer would be: depends on the session. If it's over your head, leave your instrument in its case and enjoy a good listen. Just because there's a session doesn't mean it's fair game for every muso who walks in the door. And if you can't enjoy a session without playing, then you might want to re-examine your attitude.
But if you realize that you can play at their level, and it appears to be an open session, then I'd ask straight out to join in. Explain that you're passing through and would enjoy a few tunes. How they respond will take it from there.
Of course, you can always make an arse out of yourself and never go back. But this community is at once world-wide and very small. Don't be surprised if word of your exploits preceeds you.
# Posted on November 23rd 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Introducing your goatskin to a new session.
I have followed Otterys suggestion before now - leave it in the car and see if its worth stopping.
I don't know whether I like the idea of "musicians" getting into conversation with sessioneers, gaining their confidence and being coy about what instrument they actually play. Then when invited, fetching a bodhran out of the car.
# Posted on November 23rd 2003 by geoffwright
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Danny and Zina,
No, I'm not kidding, I wish I was. Danny, I didn't understand your last sentence of your last posting on this thread - whom are you saying I should be very afraid of, and under what circumstances? This certainly doesn't sound very encouraging for musicians who find sessions intimidating, but perhaps you didn't mean it quite like that.
Jane R
# Posted on November 23rd 2003 by LW
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Ah Jane, I empathize with you, and I agree, going to sessions (at least til you get more familiar with a particular one, and hence more comfortable, is very intimidating. But I refuse to give in to that--I will stay home and practice til I am good enough if need be, but even so, there comes a time when you've got to join in, even if you feel you're not there yet. And maybe most of us won't know when there is anyway, so you just gotta do it. It's too much fun and so exciting to be part of it not to. I get so nervous that I am shaking sometimes when I walk into the bar, and then, through the smoke and clatter of glasses I hear the music, faint at first, and then getting louder and I remember why I came there in the first place--the music is magic and keeps drawing me back despite my self-doubt. Even on a bad night, I walk away having learned something, and with my head reeling with tunes...
# Posted on November 23rd 2003 by Andee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Jane, you can disregard Danny's last sentence. It's something of an inside comment, not directed at musicians.
It does help to know in advance, though, that some sessions aren't as welcoming as others. If you walk in on one of those, don't take it personally--likely they treat everyone the same way. All you have to do is move on and keep looking for a session that invites you in and maes you feel at home, or at least lets you learn as you go until you're a full-on contributor.
# Posted on November 23rd 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
See you Thursday, Jane!
# Posted on November 23rd 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
I dont see anything in any of Danny's posts that would lead anyone to believe it was a 'closed' or 'intimidating' session - if it were closed, you can bet that he wouldnt go around mentioning it here all the time
Anyways - its common sense - as long as you remain humble and not full of yourself you'll be grand. I went to Danny's session a couple of times and they were a grand bunch and not unfriendly or closed at all.
I have to say - Tish - full points she did it the right way - and was completely humble and at the same time had loads of enthusiam. Not like Poncho boy who I'm sad to say has taken to coming in every week with 50 or so friends - very irritating indeed.
# Posted on November 23rd 2003 by bb
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Thanks, bb! But then, as someone once said, I have so much to be humble about 8>) Was Ponchowhistler there with fifty of his closest friends last week as well?
# Posted on November 23rd 2003 by Tish
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Yes - and then he came up to me and said 'I just want to thank you for your music, Ive really enjoyed listening to it over the past year' blah blah blah. We havent even had the session for a year and he has only been about 4 times and that was all in the last 8 weeks. Maybe there are magical fairies playing music in his head! He is just plain weird!
# Posted on November 23rd 2003 by bb
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Hehehehe... antidote to homesickness!
# Posted on November 23rd 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Actually, I wouldn't mind being home right now to be honest, Ponchoboy or no Ponchoboy. I've managed to get on the wrong side of an extremely aggressive and frightening-looking member of the Yakuza (Japanese mafia for those who don't know) who's probably armed and an expert at martial arts for all I know. I'm on edge the whole time just walking down the street, especially if I hear a motorbike coming up behind me, and I've been told by my friends to go into hiding. Again, I've told the people in my hostel that if I get knifed or gunned down in a drive-by then they're to e-mail my parents and apologise or whatever! bb, if you ever come travelling with me, you're certainly sure to have an interesting time - for some reason these things keep happening to me. God the things I have to do to get a degree *sigh*...
# Posted on November 23rd 2003 by Dr. Dow
The Blythe
Jane ... As another of the regulars at The Blythe Hill session, please feel free to turn up any week - with your instrument preferably - and join us. The Blythe Hill session is a pretty mixed-ability group. There are those among the group (you know who your are!) who know zillions of tunes and can whack them out with power and confidence at a fair oul' lick. There are others, myself included, whose tune inventory is more limited and who lack the ability of the better players in the bunch. Doesn't matter! Of all the sessions I've been to, the Blythe Hill one is one of the more welcoming. Andee's comments above ring very true ... until you've actually experienced the pleasure of being part of a set where other musicians buoy you along, where you buoy others along, where the musicians listen out for each other, then you've got a lot to look forward to! Give it a crack, anyway, sure! Tell yourself it's for one night only ... what's there to lose?
# Posted on November 23rd 2003 by Aidan Crossey
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
I went down to another session in S.London a while back - during the summer, actually, when numbers were thin on the ground. There were already 2 or 3 flute players there plus one box and one pipes. As I approached the session table, the leader, whom I know, and who is not known for his tact (but is actually OK, really), and who is also a flute player said outloud "Oh no, not another flute player!" - and he was serious! I just laughed and took my position, undeterred. I joined in, played several tunes & I got chatting to some of the heads there and they were fine, even the leader. That said, I haven't been back! - but mostly because it's on a Tuesday, and it's a bit of a trek. If I had a free Tuesday and fancied a tune I probably would return, though.
Danny.
# Posted on November 24th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Good god, Mark, how the hell did you manage to do that? You DO get yourself into the most interesting situations. You'd really better write a book someday...
# Posted on November 24th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
At the risk of being accused of trying to get inside someone else's head, I suspect that Jane R's concern (and she can correct me if I'm wrong) was not so much that barbed comments such as the one she drew attention to might be directed at her, but that they're out there in the first place, which I have to say is for me one of the most unattractive, and (more importantly) evidently counterproductive, aspects of the session (and thesession
) scene.
Members (especially 'leaders') of in-crowds rarely feel the need to acknowledge that such in-crowds exist. Those who do not 'know their place', in the insidious sense of the expression, are frequently made to feel excluded. Why do some thesession members assume that people who've spent their entire lives appreciating (even, for all they know, playing) music, without feeling the need to strut their stuff in public (houses), have no insight into music and musicianship? I don't see anything in the rules of thesession that say you have to be a card-carrying pub session player to log on; as far as I can see, the only requirements are an active interest in ITM, and the ability to refrain from 'foul language or aggressive behaviour'. On which point, our esteemed webfuehrer can correct me if I'm wrong
# Posted on November 24th 2003 by nastyweegirl
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
I think what Danny was trying to say was that not going to sessions is fine if that is what you want to do, but if you do go to a session, don't assume that you can tell the people there what they should or shouldn't be doing. Surely that's just common sense? I took the "be afraid" bit to mean that non-session-going people frequently do turn up to sessions and do this. And that (I have to agree with Danny) is extremely annoying.
You can have an insight into the music and musicianship without going to sessions, but there's no substitute for the real thing. And for most session-goers that has nothing to do with "strutting one's stuff", it's about having fun whilst contributing suitably to the music and craic as a whole. Believe me, you're trying to read between the lines of these posts but there's nothing there. The only way for Jane to find out for sure is to quit whinging and get herself down to Danny's session instead of judging people beforehand, otherwise she *will* end up being unwelcome.
# Posted on November 24th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
I know for myself, I'm just trying to share the joy of it and be encouraging to Jane and others out there--lord knows I need some of that encouragement myself more often than not!
# Posted on November 24th 2003 by Andee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
At the risk of getting embroiled in this one, it seems to me from reading her bio and some of her threads that Jane is an committed muso with sensible things to say and who happens to play piano. Now, there seem to be a couple of problems with that:
a) Given that at one time traditional music was recorded with
piano backing, what is the attitude to piano in a session?
b) It might be pretty difficult to lug a piano to the Blyth.
Maybe I have got it wrong. In which case please enlighten.
# Posted on November 25th 2003 by Clear Drops
Speaking personally ...
Speaking personally, I find piano accompaniment, indeed piano lead, highly listenable! Some great piano recordings around at the moment - Padraic O'Reilly's stuff; Donna Long's "Handprints" album; the occasional track on Josephine Keegan's latest. Lugging one of the beasts along to a session is a bit of abind, mind you!
# Posted on November 25th 2003 by Aidan Crossey
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Andee, I agree totally. Jane needs encouragement, but she can't ask for anything more of Danny than to say "come along, we wanna hear ye girl!!" and "see you Thursday, Jane". One thing Danny doesn't do is mince his words, so when he says that I'm sure he means it genuinely. I'd say get out there, play some wicked music and have a great time. Hopefully one day I'll make it to his session when I get back to the UK for my hols, then I'll have all the time in the world to take the p*ss out of him in person instead of online
# Posted on November 25th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
In fact if I was to ask Danny if I could turn up to his session, he's probably tell me to feck off, but I don't care, I'd just turn up anyway and pour Guinness into his D/G bellows.
# Posted on November 25th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Yes, but what about welcoming bodhran players into sessions????
# Posted on November 25th 2003 by Joe Quinn
If I WERE ... he'D ... probably tell me to do something about my grammar and spelling.
# Posted on November 25th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Oh, just call them "chunes" to annoy him, Mark. *grin*
# Posted on November 25th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Yeah, dow - I'd be outraged - what a waste of good Guinness.
And I do mince my words - but that's usually after about 10 pints.
And how do you pronounce chunes as opposed to tunes?
# Posted on November 25th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
...Also, piano accompaniment sounds great in a session - but there isn't one in the Blythe, nor the Woodman - although there used to be, and was occasionally used as accompaniment, until a coup[le of years ago when Demot proudly announced he'd got rid of it!
Whaaat?
And dow - it's easy to take the p!ss out of me - everybody does - even me! But why come 12,000 miles to do it when you can do it online? Also I never ever take the p!ss out of anyone else....I'm always deadly serious...honest....
# Posted on November 25th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
you don't have to convince me as to whether a piano 'belongs' in a session ... one of the whistle players here in portland is also a fine session piano player. she sometimes brings an electronic keyboard to the alberta street session, and her playing is really enjoyable.
sarah
# Posted on November 25th 2003 by sarahc
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Yeah - a keyboard with piano voice on is the answer for a pub without a piano.
# Posted on November 25th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Seems to me the difference between a muso who quietly listens at the bar or in the circle, with or without an instrument, & a punter, is that the punter doesn't ever go home & play the tunes themselves. Sure, punters are welcome, but as soon as they start slagging someone who actually tries to create the thing they *appreciate* so much, well that's a whole other issue. It's the act of risk-taking & putting yourself out there that earns the respect of fellow musos, not the act of sitting back & appreciating, or worse, criticizing. You can do that alone in the comfort of your own living room, just as simply as logging on & typing such comments on a website like this. Come on into the trenches, or careful where you tread. Sounds like Jane, who already plays the music, is in a much more enviable position than any punter who shows up every week without a tune to their credit.
# Posted on November 25th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
I like the piano accompianment, too. It makes me think of the "old days" of Irish music. I guess since I have a Cd of old fiddle 78's put onto Cd and almost all of the tracks have piano.
# Posted on November 25th 2003 by Andee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Danny, I agree that's the most practical solution but there's nothing to beat having a real piano in the pub for a session. There's one in the Royal Oak in Edinburgh but, unfortunately, most of the sessions are crap there-though that's not the fault of the piano.
Interestingly, I heard some gossip that the organisers of Fiddle 2003 had been complaining about the expense of hiring pianos for some of the guests last weekend. I know that keyboards could be used instead but, for such an event, it's nice to have the real thing.
John
# Posted on November 25th 2003 by Johnny Jay
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
"Sure, punters are welcome" might sound just a wee bit begrudging. With no punters, there'd be no venue; with no venue, there'd be no session, surely?
If only the act of risk-taking did always earn the respect of fellow players, this discussion would never have taken the turn it has. As Danny asked: is there truly any such thing as an 'open' session? Session etiquette should surely amount to no more than good manners, but should one really have to resort to obsequious behaviour or out-and-out sycophancy? Evidently what encouragement there is to be had around sessions is sometimes experienced hand-in-hand with enough intimidation (even if "only" verbal) to keep away at least one person (and that's already one too many) who loves the music, and would love to join in. Are lovers of the music naive to come to the sessions believing the music-making will be anarchic (in the best sense of the word)? Perhaps so, for you find unpleasant people everywhere in society, and gatherings of musicians aren't exempt.
Ah, but the slagging, it's an essential aspect of the session 'scene'! .... ;op
# Posted on November 25th 2003 by nastyweegirl
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Unfortunately, the more "open" and "welcoming" a session is the more likely it is to attract all sort of oddballs eg budding singers, bangers of different types of drums, whistly types playing odd sounding instruments in obscure keys, poets etc etc etc. All this is fair enough if all you want is a bit of a fun evening but not if you want to have a serious tune session.
Having said that, most sessions (even the top level) will welcome you if you know your place; e.g play only if you know the tunes or least in a manner not to put everyone else off, be considerate to the regular members and "go with the flow" rather than trying to impress them with a solo performance. Also, the choice of instrument is important. As discussed before, some are more welcome than others in larger numbers.
Oh yes, I agree that if you go to a strange session you should suss things out before sitting down with the musicians and ask first. In many cases, one of the musicians will spot your instrument and invite you over anyway but don't depend on it.
John
# Posted on November 25th 2003 by Johnny Jay
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Yes, but what about........ (SEE ABOVE)
# Posted on November 25th 2003 by Joe Quinn
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Incidentally, in referring to "whistly types", I wasn't meaning the normal flute and tin whistle players who frequent session but those exponents of exotic instruments who you have to see to believe. Didgeridoos can be another menace.
)
# Posted on November 25th 2003 by Johnny Jay
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
But shouldn't regular session members act with the same consideration to their fellow session members, whether or not they be newcomers? "ie play only if they know the tunes or at least in a manner not to put everyone else off, be considerate to the regular members and 'go with the flow' rather than trying to impress them with a solo performance."
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by nastyweegirl
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Nothing against bodhran players, either, Joe. The bodhran is quite an acceptable and standard instrument compared to some of the things I've seen although one or two bodhrans playing at a time is probably enough.
John
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Johnny Jay
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Thank you, John and I do thing nastweegirl has a good point there. Isn't about people and music?
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Joe Quinn
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Hi Nasty. (Sorry, don't know your real name)
I think most regular session members do behave appropriately although there can be some exceptions. Sometimes, they are tolerated because of WHO they are, maybe they've just had a drink or two to many that night or, possibly, the others are to nice to tell them.
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Johnny Jay
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Sorry, I'll try that again in English;
Thank you, John and I do thinK nastweegirl has a good point there. Isn't IT about people and music?
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Joe Quinn
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
It's ok, Joe. I got your drift.
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Johnny Jay
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
OK.
OK. I'm going to say it. Something many ppl have been thinking, but haven't had the courage to say. Nasty, your points are all valid. But if you're just a punter, your opinion immediately loses credibility no matter how long you've been 'hanging around the session scene.' Of course sessions would continue without pubs! They never started in pubs to begin with. My question goes back to Danny's original thread. Have *you* ever taken the risk of introducing yourself into a session? Do you go home & play the tunes & fantasize what it might be like to finally break into a circle of musos & become accepted as a player? The muso who risks playing the Kesh (sorry!) in a session for the first time has more to contribute to this thread than punters who sit at the bar & watch week after week as newbies either succeed or go down in flames. Maybe you should start a new thread, 'Do you think sessions are a spectator sport?' Perhaps the responses there will prove me wrong. Sorry.
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
With no punters, the session would go right on it's own merry way, as a matter of fact. A session is not a performance, and never has been. It is there only for the satisfaction of the players. Anyone there to watch and enjoy may do so, but the players won't give a flying about their opinions of a thing, I'm afraid, or they shouldn't.
Now, a pub owner who doesn't care about the music may see it a bit different. He is after all in the business to be in business. But the session members don't, shouldn't, and shan't.
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Think so too, Zina. Otherwise we'd be doing requests for duelling banjos or even duelling bodhrans. Hmmmmm now there's a thought!
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Joe Quinn
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
There goes Joe, putting those sharp pointy bits on his drum...
hehehe -- Feel sorry for the next making that bodhran joke!
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
...and we've had punters telling us that "the music was nice, but it's really annoying when the fiddlers' bows don't all go in the same direction" (true punter quote).
Personally, I enjoy having a crowd in the pub while we're playing--all that conversation and clinking of glasses makes nice background music for the tunes. But I'd rather they didn't turn into an audience and start applauding every set. And it's no fun when they all roar around the telly, or just roar amongst themselves so loud that we can't hear ourselves play. And the punter who offers an unsolicited, pointed critique of our playing (beyond the occasional word of encouragement) is at best good for a laugh, and a reminder that some people don't understand what a session is.
Sorry, but the notion that sessions wouldn't exist without punters or pubs is just the strangest, funniest thing I've read here in a long while.
The undercurrent in this thread is the implication that sessions exist for people's enjoyment and betterment. That sessions "should" entertain punters and encourage newbies. But to me, those are minor (and in some cases, perhaps even undesirable) side effects of a session. In fact, I think it's more accurate to say that we exist for the tunes' enjoyment--sorta "god made people so the tunes would be played."
That said, I'm all for encouraging newbies--that's why I run a slow session, loan my instruments out for people to try, play into tape recorders and minidiscs so people can learn the tunes at home, provide sheet music, etc. But that's not the session. And I'm glad that non-players enjoy listening to the tunes, and that some are even moved to try it themselves. But the difference is that for them, *listening* is the experience. For the players, the tunes themselves are the experience.
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Well put, Will. I remember once asking Kevin Glackin how sessions in Dublin deal with newbies. He looked at me as if I was mad and said that they didn't do anything about them.
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Quite often, punters complain that we are just "playing for ourselves" and not entertaining them. As you say, Will, they are missing the whole point. If they enjoy the music, that's good and well but it's for the players rather than an audience.
John
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Johnny Jay
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
emily_az, Will, whoever: Absolutely no need to apologise. I had thought about specifying pub sessions, but thought it unnecessary (obviously wrongly), since it's my understanding that pub(lic) sessions are what's being discussed on this thread. The comment which I was responding to: "Sure, punters are welcome" could only apply in a situation where punters were present, and it was to such a session that I was referring.
I'm well aware that sessions never started in pubs, and some of the best ones, in my opinion (which FYI I share with some fine musicians), continue to be held in private homes. The newcomer to such a house session would be a guest, there by invitation, and would be treated with all due respect, not merely tolerated (they would be in my home, at any rate), and certainly never expected to act so fawningly as described by Danny. I'd be thoroughly ashamed if anybody thought it necessary.
As has been observed many times in various threads, without pubs, a hell of a lot of people would be stuck for a place to hold a session. Thesession members have bewailed the total absence of sessions in parts of the world where there are houses (indeed all sorts of buildings) a-plenty. I've seen it argued many times on these threads that truly involved punters can only contribute to the craic. Nobody here suggested that the players should play up to an "audience". Or that they shouldn't be playing for themselves. But if a pub landlord isn't convinced that the session is good for trade, then he might well go off the idea altogether; I've seen many comments from players on this site that demonstrate that such a situation would be of concern to them. This much can be acknowledged without getting anywhere near suggesting that trade should be a player's primary concern.
If you're of the opinion that a valid point becomes any less valid simply according to whose mouth (or keyboard) it comes out of, well, frankly I'm astonished. As Joe Quinn said, (if you don't disregard his opinion on account of his being a bodhr
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by nastyweegirl
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
So how about them Broncos?....
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Uf, they suck, Will. Actually, I suppose they're not doing too badly. Of course, I don't follow football, though I make nachos and serve drinks and such for those who do.
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Does Montana even *have* any pro sports teams, Will?
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Oh my......................
Go Patriots!!! Yay!!!!!
Joyce
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by JMH
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
I think it would have been more subtle, and therefore more effective, if you'd let Will's post stand alone ....
Heavens! more "unsolicited critique".
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by nastyweegirl
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Didn't the Patriots win their game with the Broncos, Joyce? I seem to remember that they did. There was a lot of yelling at the time.
It's sad being the only sports-impaired person in an entire city full of sports-mania. I don't even know how the Avs have done, although I rather assume that the Rockies suck because they have for a while.
I once made an entire room of people laugh watching a football game. I'd been asking my usually num-num questions ("why did he blow the whistle on that?" "what's the penalty for" "what is a 'first down'?". I looked at the screen and everyone was wandering around, and as I handed over the most recent plate of nachos I asked, "what's happening now?" And the answer was, "Well, the game's over."
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Yes, Zina, we have pro athletes up here, just not in any sports you're likely to see on the telly. There's sled dog racing, and ice fishing, and steer wrestling. Not to mention log rolling and sheep dipping....
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Ice fishing is a pro sport? And do they dress the steer up in gold diapers and leather vests and such? And is this the sort of log rolling on the water, or some kind of weird Montana version on dry land? Do they actually dip the sheep *into* something, or is that something I don't want to ask?
The mind boggles.
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Interestingly, the training regimen for all of these sports is the same: repeated exposure to sub-zero cold, blunt trauma, and alcohol, followed by more alcohol.
Actually, steer wrestling comes after the main event--calf wrestling. You start with a calf, a cowboy, and a knife....
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Jesus. Can I just start with the alcohol and stay that course, then? Though the cowboy might be kind of fun. Does he have the knife, or do I? *snort*
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
...Sounds fun - can you introduce yourself "fawningly" to this activity?
And how do the punters interact?
I get my other kicks in the winter, out of running 5-6 miles through muddy parkland, countryside, of a Saturday, but if there weren't an audience I wouldn't be interested :~}
Anyone know what time it is?
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Rudall the time
Load of bull with a brass neck
See, now, I have quite a fondness for steer wrestling as well, however I have never done it myself & have no idea how I'd begin to go about it. I enjoy hanging around with steer wrestlers, esp the cowboy style wrestlers from the west, love kicking back a few drinks & discussing the merits of steer wrestling, history of s.w., heroes of s.w., styles of s.w., etc. However I would never dream of stepping in to tell a group of steer wrestlers how they should treat each other, the steers or their groupies. It can be such a closed circle type group, but you definitely have to be a wrestler to be included, or at least respected. Even the rodeo clowns have something important to offer, too bad they're ridiculed so much. But most steer wrestlers agree, until you've gotten into the corral, y'aint got much call to be standing around telling folks how it should or shouldn't be done. Maybe someday I'll try wrestling a calf, lord knows I know many supportive s.w.'s who keep trying to coax me out there, but until then, I'm going to watch, listen & learn, & remain part of the steer wrestling scene without appearing to be an arm chair know-it-all about something I'm too afraid to try myself.
Oh hallo Joyce, nice to see you back. Hope this doesn't put you off Frankie Kennedy.
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by emily_bmore
Oh hallo Daniel, seems I answered your q before I even got round to reading it, how convenient. My time, is time to make scalloped potatoes for tomorrow's feast & annual re-enactment of the scalping of white ppl.
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Ive been to the dentist before, maybe I should tell him exactly how its done
This is a great thread lads - you all totally crack me up - who says trad music is boring! Although Lord knows how we got onto steer wrestling (which Ive never heard of) is it like wrestling cows?
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by bb
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
No, bb, it's more of a blood sport, you run the risk of being gored, whereas cows mostly just fall on top of you.
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Going to the dentist can be a 'blood sport'
Lots of smiles for such a hilarious bunch of fellow sessioneers
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by bb
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
NastyWG, FWIW, toe xplain myself a bit better...I realise my first post might have read as though I approached the session with trepidation or cap-in-hand or whatever the word is, and actually, I didn't.
I did my best to show good manners but I expected good manners in return. They told me it wasn't a closed session and they knew I was a beginner. Under those circumstances, if someone had said "come along" and then said "gizatunewillya" and then said, "your playing's scheidt", I wouldn't have been back. Doormat I ain't. I don't feel apologetic at all about being a newbie and the reason for that is that I know I've been polite and considerate, so any rubbish I might get from there on is undeserved and I wouldn't take it.
The session has been as considerate of me as I was of it, so I don't think of it as humble pie.
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Tish
oh dear in a rush meant "to explain" of course...
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Tish
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Nasty,
Look, I don't know you, & you don't know me, & I apologize for any misunderstanding between us. But I am probably the farthest thing from 'nasty' you'll come across, as several members here can attest to, as I've met them & enjoyed their company as well as those of their friends & family. I'm no rabid anti-punter, though some of my comments of late may paint me as such, & I'm sorry for that. I also think it's fair to say most players start out as punters, as I did, & which I think would be grand for you to consider as well.
As you correctly say, "I don't see anything in the rules of thesession that say you have to be a card-carrying pub session player to log on...[....] Ah, but the slagging, it's an essential aspect of the session 'scene'! .... ;op."
IMHO, then, if you can't take the slagging as a non-muso on a site primarily designed for musos, then perhaps you should restrict your comments to threads that fall within the realm of your experience, ie music appreciation & not music participation. As a flute player, I don't participate in discussions about bowed triplets or fickle reeds. Sorry for any bluntness, that's just my opinion.
& FWIW, it totally makes every difference whose mouth (or keyboard) a valid point or opinion originates from. I'm not going to consult a car mechanic about my lower right abdominal pain, though he may be accurate in surmising it could be my appendix. I won't consult a sean nos singer about crans, or a punter on how to interact in a players' circle. If I want advice on how to support the craic without an instrument, I'll be sure to start a new thread.
Again, apologies, I'm signing off for the moment. I'm tired of feeling like the bad guy.
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
My goodness Emin, reading your first post I would have sworn you were Bridie! Guys, I have the answer to this. There's nothing for it, we need to introduce an international "session entrance exam" system like you get for some universities, that would solve everything
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Em, I don't think that's cow *wrestling*; possibly you are thinking of cow *tipping*...the falling over on top of, that is. Mark, glad to hear from you, you realize now that if you let too long go by, I shall start having panic attacks that your Japanese mafioso has done away with you...
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
I have a friend from Iowa who swears up and down that you really can tip cows, btw.
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Zina Lee
For what it's worth ...
I've said this before, somewhere. But some "punters" are more integral to certain sessions than some of the players. I call to mind one session (in fact a group of closely-linked sessions) in Northern Ireland where the lynchpin is a non-musician. (He has tried, bless him. He struggled a while with banjo, then concertina, but never made it as far as a tune.) His appreciation of the music knows no bounds, however. His organising abilities, his encouragement, his ability to coach good music from beginning players are all worthy of note. Don't know the nameof the tune you were playing? Paul's yer man! Got a new reel but can't think of something to follow it? Paul's yer man! Need a loan of this or that CD? Paul's yer man! Phone numbers, lifts home, the lend of an odd fiver ...
(And let's not forget Seamus Quinn's sleeve notes on Sl
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Aidan Crossey
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
That's very fair Aidan, thank you. Personally, I would prefer not to receive a lecture on session etiquette from someone who has never actually participated in one. It sounds like yer man actually has tried, much like George O'Brien, president of the Arizona Irish Music Society. Organizes everything in the state, lovely lovely man, not a man for the tunes, but has struggled through many a slow sesh on the whistle, bless his heart, but to very minimal success, but we love & respect him all the more for trying & for his humility. In fact, it helps him appreciate the music & the musicians that he's supporting even more. *shrug*
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
I realise now, I should have kept my mouth shut when the builders were telling me that RSJ's weren't necessary when I was having my house extended .... of course, my house would now be in a state of collapse, but at least I could have consoled myself with the knowledge that I'd observed the protocols ....
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by nastyweegirl
Tish - that's precisely what I was suggesting; that newcomers are deserving of the same consideration as established players. Not a crumb of humble pie to be had in such a situation.
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by nastyweegirl
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
I suppose punters get caught up in the excitement and want to participate somehow/any old how. And sure, why not?
Didn’t have time to post any more last night as was out at A sesh with A button accordian player & guitarist. The punters bought us beers. Bliss. We were positively begging for instructions after that from the punters on how to get home.
Joe
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Joe Quinn
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Upon a time, once, while drunk and 18, a bunch of us found we'd wandered into a field in Germany. This wasn't as much of a suprise as you might think; we had started off at our tent on another field quite nearby, which was also in Germany. But this was a new tent. Field, I mean. And it had cows. Or *a* cow, at the very least... Having but recently watched The Simpsons episode where some sleeping Guernseys had been unceremoniously tipped, I decided that being 18 and drunk, it would be a great adventure to tip a cow myself.
So I (everybody, sing with me!) tiptoed... through the cowpats... (stop singing, everybody!) and gave said sleeping cow a good old push. Except it wasn't sleeping (awwwww) and it wasn't a cow (oooooh!) it was a great ruddy bull (aaaah!) with bloody big horns (eeeee!). And it wasn't happy to see me at all.
Whether or not I survived to tell the tale, I'll leave to your imagination... along with this nugget of wisdom to all you movers and shakers out there: going in for those rare stock tips might seem like a good idea at the time, but one way or another you'll come to realise how much bullsh*t there is out there.
(sorry, I just had to - and the story's true, btw - okay, okay, I'm going already!)
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Q
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
I remember going to the Woodman 3 years ago. I played mandolin (now moved to fiddle) and was way too shy to bring the instrument in. I used to come up to Danny as he was the most approachable musician there I felt, and I used to ask him the name of every other tune. Sometimes he would say "I told you last week" but would tell me nonetheless but he would always say hello when I walked through the door. I eventually went in with the mandolin and was invited by their excellent banjo player to join in. I was sweating with fear the first time round but have had the best time of my life playing there, since. I go to the Thursday session set up by Danny, as he invited me and a couple of Sunday session pals to attend and feel part of the session nucleus. That said, we are always pleased to see new players as they bring fresh sets for us to play and the mood of each session can be so different from one week to the next. I have been to other sessions, with a friend and our instruments, and the musicians there always come up to us and ask us to join, even when we say that we're still learning. We tend to follow Danny's common sense set or rules and we get asked back, so attitude matters nearly as much as musicianship.
# Posted on November 26th 2003 by Cath
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Cath - and even one of the 'less approachable'(?) players saw fit to lend you a fiddle for a year or more, until you finally persuaded him to let you buy it from him.
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by nastyweegirl
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Q, my former boss swears to cow tipping. He says that you have to take a serious run up at it, like you would as a linebacker, but if the cow's really asleep and if it's not a bull, he says it goes over. We accused him of romanticizing, but he never gave in.
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Thanks for your support, Cath. I'd have thought it was Cath's business, and no-one else's, to choose or not to reveal how she acquired her fiddle.
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
... and there was me thinking we were playing 'credit where credit's due'! ...
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by nastyweegirl
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
...although he did say that he had to take two tries at his cow before it went over.
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
I have to wonder (pardon me for doing it out loud) whether Nastywee really meant to imply--above, with her housebuilder's analogy--that without her advice and critques, a session would collapse. Notwithstanding the examples cited above, there are few non-players in the world who are so vital to a session, and even they would not likely crow about it, even if it were true.
Of course, there's a possible flaw in Nasty's analogy: the house she was speaking up for was her own, while the local session "belongs" to the players, if a session can actually "belong" to anyone. By that, I mean that if the musos decide not to show up, no amount of punters is going to make the session magically appear. Or if the musocs sitting in the circle are in agreement that they all want to get drunk that night and play like shite, just because they feel like it, then that's their perogative.
And it would be funny (if they're happy drunks) or just plain rude (if they're serious drunks) if a punter came up and said "You lads sound like shite. You haven't played a true note all night, and you might as well put up a lost-and-found poster to help you find that stray rhythm." Or anything to that effect. Even a gentle "That set would sound better if you slowed down a notch" or "your whistle is sharp" seems to me to be *not* the place of the reasonable and prudent punter to say. Even the players themselves usually think long and hard before making such comments.
For the life of me, I can't understand why any punter would *want* to say such a thing, but I know it happens. Perhaps it's "free speech" outweighing discretion. Granted, it's one thing if you paid dear cash for your auditorium seats and the "band" billed itself as professional musicians, or if you're the music critic for the local newspaper. The only other purpose I can fathom behind it would be to hammer home a personal gripe, and then I question whether the session is a good place to do such a thing. If I were in the circle, I'd ask them to take it outside and let the other players be.
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: P.S.
...didn't mean to interrupt the cow tipping thread....
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
LOL
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Will, I just thought the analogy was that it isn't always *totally* true that you can't have anything worthwhile to say about a topic in which you're not a practitioner.
But then I'm catching up in a hurry before rushing off to a mind-numbing training course, I might have missed something.
Now as for cow-tipping, careful, there must be some card-carrying animal rights people round here, WWIII might erupt 8>)
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by Tish
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
But Tish, I doubt there's really anyone here that needs to be reminded that non-practitioners can add value.
On the other hand, non-practitioners sometimes misunderstand the purpose, context, underlying reasons, and/or social interplay in a situation, and so may create an unwelcome distraction by speaking or behaving inappropriately. I've seen it on construction sites, steer wrestling, and in sessions. For example, I've been in a session when a punter walked up and said, "That's a nice tune--you should hear the Chieftains play it--they make it sound awesome." Well, thanks for reminding me that I'm not Martin Fay or Sean Keane, and that our little circle isn't as talented and polished as Paddy Moloney and company.... Sure that's a minor faux pas, but add to it all the requests for Dueling Banjos or Orange Blossom Special, and the drunk who knocks your table and sends all the pints to the floor, and the fan who finds the remote control and turns the telly volume all the way up and the cell phone call in the middle of a solo song and the kid with the djembe and the lady with the tambourine and the violinist who would never stoop to bring her violin but finds time to offer advice on how to synchronize our bowing, with the help of sheet music....well, you get my point.
What it amounts to in my book is that people (players and non-players alike) should use a sense of discretion when they consider barging into a session, just as they should when overhearing a conversation and thinking about joining in. The players (or conversants) aren't obligated to accommodate someone just because they walked in the door.
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
So this is where ye all are? I've been lookin' all over for ye and look, I've got the bodhran with me an' all!
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by Joe Quinn
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Its almost like, we (I assume) would all never walk up to a session with say, Siobhan Peoples, Tola Custy and Murty Ryan and offer advice (I hope). This thread its getting a bit tiresome to be honest(except for the cow tipping part!). If a punter did the things that are happening in this thread in a session that I was in I, would get very irritated, would not be impressed. Now that that is out of the way think I'll log onto a nuclear physics site and offer my advice - well why not? I'm sure I have some vaulable info to offer them
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by bb
ouch! Below the belt beebs!, sorry lads - cant help it - in real life I say things like this to people - not going to pretend to be nice about it when I'm not. Dow lucky poncho boy didnt turn up last night - I wouldve et the head of him!
Just sick of people yabbering about things they havent a clue about.
When youve struggled with music and strived to improve and been totally frustrated but kept on going, and put up with comments like and I quote 'you are a bad fiddle player, you sound like somebody killing a cat' - true quote to me when I had been playing about 6 months. By a *NON* musician in fact. Then maybe, just maybe you can comment, until then I just dont see the point - we are all here to offer helpful advice to people about tunes, sessions etc, how can some people offer advice when they havent ever sat in on a session?
Ive been around sessions my whole life - i would never have dreamed on commenting on the music until I started playing - and even now I'm just a beginer compared to my friends so I comment on basic stuff like 'how to join a session' nothing on technique or anything!
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by bb
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
excuse me - is this seat taken?
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Opinions are like a$%^&holes...everyone has one, but that doesn't mean you should share your opinions ( & a$%^&holes) to the first group of people sittng down havin a tune and a pint.
There are many valid points in here (not least the rare stock tips)...but there is no need for bursting the thermometer about it.
I can see there are at least two types of sessions - one were the silence surrounding the music is integral - and another where the craic and the noise from the till and the mad poets and djembes and didgeridoos aqnd singers et al, actually enhace the state of play.
Keep reelin'
GW
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Agreed Will, I wasn't commenting on whether or not anyone needs to hear it - I just didn't think her comment went any further than that. And emily_az, I'm not disagreeing with your point either, in case it looked from my last post as though I was. Hope your flu is better!
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by Tish
Scalping of the white ppl?
Emily - tell us about the annual renactment of the scalping of the white people - please!!!! This I need to know about
Much more interesting than cow tipping.
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by Tish
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
What, Tish! As if there was anything more interesting...! *snort*
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
I have too much sympathy for the cows 8>)
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by Tish
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Well I enjoy hanging around with scalp-eating cannibals, but I would never dream..... NO NO NO JUST KIDDING! Navajos never scalped anybody, at least I don't think so.
Well Tish, as I've mentioned before on this site (ad nauseum it feels like), & which could very likely be a huge factor to my recent crankiness, I live on an Indian reservation in the middle of nowhere. Today was Thanksgiving, so not only was I homesick, I had to work all day at the hospital, 7am-7pm, well actually I didn't get home til 9, just a bit ago. The staff is about half Navajo, half non-Navajo, & it is quite a thing to sit down & break bread with folks on the day that is supposed to comemorate the Pilgrims & peace & all that shite, & that your ancestors might have forced these folks naked at gunpoint to do horrific things, etc. I have long hair, I love to tease the Navajo on Thanksgiving about scalping me, this is my third Thanksgiving here (sign of the Cross), & it never loses its shock value or implicit humor. Gosh, I guess that is pretty dark... Anyway, today, sadly, we all brought in a full spread, turkey, stuffing, the works, but we had 4 deliveries back to back to back to back, including a C/section between 12:50pm & 3:53pm (3 boys & a girl) so our lovely turkey & stuffing etc sat untouched until well after change of shift. I ate 2 pieces of pecan pie & a piece of apple pie to make up for everything, & I'm blissfully stuffed & ready to do it all again in 8 hours. Mmm leftovers! So that's all, Native Americans rubbing elbows with the murderous white folk who slew their ancestors only a few generations ago, & celebrating with a turkey. Woooooo time to bust out the Christmas crap!
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Oh my lordy lord, I can't believe nobody has pulled Beebs up for saying she would've "et the head of" Ponchoboy! I didn't know you'd taken a liking to him Beebs. Just make sure that you do it somewhere private and not in front of his 50 friends
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Yes, but Beebs is a civil cannibal. I'm sure she would've apologized to Ponchoboy while inserting the skewer, and no doubt kept him well basted while roasting his brains out, so to speak. No harm, no foul.....
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
All this talk of food... Em, I had a dinner invitation once from some people I hardly knew - I had to sit up all pukka and party manners and all that stuff, and they didn't know *anything* about vegetarians and obviously pecan pie was something they'd heard of, so I was served it for main course complete with baked vegetables and gravy over the whole lot. Hope you enjoyed yours more than I did mine.
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by Tish
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Women say we men all keep our brains down there in the other head eh!
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
I'm reminded of a radio programme on excema, where I heard Loius XIV quoted (although the attribution may have been incorrect) as saying that the pleasant torture of having an itch and scratching it, was so exquisite a pleasure, that it should be denied to the poor and mean.
. If anyone doesn't want to hear my opinions (or see my @r$eho
Tish - you were perfectly correct in your interpretation of my analogy, and I suspect that Will is perfectly aware of the fact but just couldn't resist the temptation to be mischievous
# Posted on November 27th 2003 by nastyweegirl
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
I wonder if cows lock their knees while they sleep and that's why they tip over?
# Posted on November 28th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Here in the dairy state, we find that cows tip over because they sleep standing up.
# Posted on November 28th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Yes, but why not just go over in a slump? Or waver a bit and let their knees go all wobbly and fall down sideways? Surely they must lock their knees or something...
# Posted on November 28th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Dow - I hope you ought to be thankful that I am nowhere near Japan or I would have to bop you very, very hard with my fiddle bow. You are a cheeky chap and e all know you wouldnt dare do that unless you were 20,000km away from me
# Posted on November 28th 2003 by bb
Re: Introducing yourself to a new session.
Alright Beebs, no need to bite my head off
# Posted on November 28th 2003 by Dr. Dow