What do you think of crossover celtic music such as Slainte Mhath, Seven Nations, Shoogelnifty or Afro Celts? I personally think it's amazing to blend different cultures together musically. I love the traditional stuff of course, but it's great when someone can take an amazing traditional tune and do something to it to update or modernize it. It puts a new edge on traditional tunes, a sort of stamp from the 21st century. However, I do think that some groups and artists push it sometimes, that's not good. You have to keep the root of the music alive without ruining the tune with junk. Well, just wondered what everyone thinks about this.
Not fussed about that kind of thing, dont get me wrong, if you see someone like that live its still fun, but, I think its just all a bit too...bongoish for me. I wouldnt buy their CDs. But I'm not a pure drop traditionalist either, I really like Tola and Mirella's CD and that kind of thing.
I find Afrocelt a bit much, despite living in a household where trancey and ambient music is celebrated.
I think it's got to do with synths, as well as the damned djembe. I'm sick of 'em! You walk down the streets of Cape Town centre and all you can hear is the sound of a hundred backpackers beating their newly purchased authentic Africa (TM) drums. What's with that?? I mean, you don't see African tourists rocking up in Edinburgh, buying up all the bagpipes in town and then sitting round a campfire smoking dope and playing the pipes at each other, do you? (hell, maybe you do; never been to Scotland)
Shooglenifty isn't too bad, though.
I quite like 'crossover' that goes into other traditional music without resorting to over-elaborate percussive and synthesized effects. Even the slightest touches of jazz (easily overdone, mind you) add something worthwhile.
I used to like crossover celtic, but then strayed towards more traditional forms and now it rather annoys me. Mixing traditions sound fine to me, but there's a catch: it seems very easy, but it is extremely difficult to do it well. Just mixing up different traditions with no spirited idea gives very cheesy results, blurs the form (is it me who speaks with words so wise? Oh, my).
Where was I...
It certainly doesn't bother me as much as low level rock-folk bands do, I mean those guys who try to cover their fiddler's inability with loud rock riffs repeating base chords and oompah percussion beat. Have plenty of those around here, a real pain in the... what you call it... lower back.
Disclaimer: Again, I don't mind rock-folk, if it's done well and with an interesting idea.
Ha Ha, Q--laughing to myself (LTM?) at the visual of African tourists buying up all the bagpipes in Scotland and sitting round trying to play them, smoking pot, etc. :D
What do you mean, 'update or modernize a traditional tune'? A lot of traditional tunes are modern, are they not. And one thing that Shooglenifty, Afro-Celts etc DON'T do is modernise tunes, they simply take a tune or write a trad sounding tune and graft it on to a modern (i.e. pop/rock/dance) arrangement. In a way it's just like what Moby does with blues and gospel music, it's a sort of sampling. And indeed, what do you mean by 'modern'? To me modern is the style of the first half/three quarters of the 20th Century - Stravinsky, Le Corbusier, Messaen, Picasso etc. Aren't we now in the post-modern era. I quite like Shooglenifty, sometimes like the Afro-Celts, and think that Kila are fantastic, but for modern music you can't beat Paddy Keenan, he 'modernises' the tunes far more than any of the bead wavers.
I'd advise care when talking about post-modernism and music. At varsity, I remember a visiting musicology PHD student waxing lyrical about how wonderfully postmodern it was to borrow a bit of rhythm from this culture, a bit of melodic variation from that, some aesthetics from pop culture and jazz - all these amazing musical 'colours' thrown into the pot to create a beautiful rainbow of sound.
Which is great if it works. But as any pre-schooler will tell you, when a mix a whole bunch of colours in a pot, usually you just get a kind of sludgy brown
To what extent you can apply that analogy to prog-trad depends, as always, on your taste.
So - what's going on here? Sounds like Plate Tectonic Theory of Celto-ethnomusicology, complete with subduction zones. But, like all the kings horses and all the king's men, we're trying to put back together again things that don't fit any more. I personally like the noises that ACSS and Shooglenifty and Heritage and Citania and Milladoiro make, and I'm in love with the music of the new generation of Italian box players...and Swedish fiddle players (nicely wierd, though)...I've even heard some gorgeous Finnish box playing. It's great that trad music is not just an Irish, or even Scottish, thing, but why try and make connections that were never there, or severed for 1-2 millenia?
Let's get real and agree we like or not the sound these bands make - but don't swallow too much of the record companies' hype, pushing the celtic thing down our collective throat. It's a marketing ploy they've hit upon and we, the exponents, should be the last to fall for it.
Shooglenifty are better than the others, I dont like kila at all, but as Danny says - there is loads of great music out there but we dont need to mix it all up!
When you go and get stoned with the Africans, can I come too - there's still some black puddings left and a few kippers.
Seriously though - Danny's right about not falling for marketing hype. But the real truth is what Dow says "crossover sucks unless you like it".
Some people like the Beatles ( ! ). Some people like things such as "The Chicago Philharmonic Plays the Beatles Greatest Hits" ( !! ). You like what you like and I like what I like, and so long as nobody tells me what I should and shouldn't like then thats ok. My own personal preference cuts out electric guitars and drum kits - but only from "Traditional" music. They went well enough in Topographic Oceans and Close to the Edge back in the 70s symphonic rock - which I still listen to.
I think that gratuitously mixing things together is like the brown plasticine analogy that Q gives.
I actually will admit to enjoying Ivers & co of Immigrant Soul. Didn't get caught in the hype, heard her, et al. perform w/ the Boston Pops. Liked what I heard and bought the disc. She's a great fiddler and the rest of the band seem to be great as well. I don't have a steady diet of the "cross -over" variety. It just depends on the mood, the Ivers disc is energetic, and at times I'm in the mood for that. I don't generally adhere to anyone's right or wrong, If I enjoy it, that's all that matters.
Spot on, Dave! I may or may not like the progressive / crossover stuff, only depending on the sound that hits my ears, not because it's *artistically or aesthetically* wrong - who gives a toss? Must say, I hated the Swarbrick / Fairport thing in the early days. That fiddle tone & senseless drums were atrocious!! Still, lots of tasty, clever, rousing, uplifting stuff has come out from so many others since then.
Go Danny. While some influences I like (see Gleantain Ghlas Gaoth Dobhair by Altan wi' a dij) there are others i do not want to contemplate... like afro celt. Blind Old Dogs' percussion is annoying... but they still do good music.
Crossover Celtic
Crossover Celtic
What do you think of crossover celtic music such as Slainte Mhath, Seven Nations, Shoogelnifty or Afro Celts? I personally think it's amazing to blend different cultures together musically. I love the traditional stuff of course, but it's great when someone can take an amazing traditional tune and do something to it to update or modernize it. It puts a new edge on traditional tunes, a sort of stamp from the 21st century. However, I do think that some groups and artists push it sometimes, that's not good. You have to keep the root of the music alive without ruining the tune with junk. Well, just wondered what everyone thinks about this.
# Posted on November 21st 2003 by Sarah_MadPlaid
Re: Crossover Celtic
i've heard both slainte mhath & shooglenifity live, and i really like both of them. although neither band has been particularly well-recorded.
afro celt leaves me cold -- i don't think what they are doing works most of the time.
sarah in portland
# Posted on November 21st 2003 by sarahc
Re: Crossover Celtic
Not fussed about that kind of thing, dont get me wrong, if you see someone like that live its still fun, but, I think its just all a bit too...bongoish for me. I wouldnt buy their CDs. But I'm not a pure drop traditionalist either, I really like Tola and Mirella's CD and that kind of thing.
# Posted on November 21st 2003 by bb
Re: Crossover Celtic
I find Afrocelt a bit much, despite living in a household where trancey and ambient music is celebrated.
I think it's got to do with synths, as well as the damned djembe. I'm sick of 'em! You walk down the streets of Cape Town centre and all you can hear is the sound of a hundred backpackers beating their newly purchased authentic Africa (TM) drums. What's with that?? I mean, you don't see African tourists rocking up in Edinburgh, buying up all the bagpipes in town and then sitting round a campfire smoking dope and playing the pipes at each other, do you? (hell, maybe you do; never been to Scotland)
Shooglenifty isn't too bad, though.
I quite like 'crossover' that goes into other traditional music without resorting to over-elaborate percussive and synthesized effects. Even the slightest touches of jazz (easily overdone, mind you) add something worthwhile.
# Posted on November 21st 2003 by Q
Re: Crossover Celtic
I like don't really mind crossover celtic that much, as long as they don't overdo it. A good example is Flogging Molly.
-Max
# Posted on November 21st 2003 by Max Becher
Re: Crossover Celtic
I used to like crossover celtic, but then strayed towards more traditional forms and now it rather annoys me. Mixing traditions sound fine to me, but there's a catch: it seems very easy, but it is extremely difficult to do it well. Just mixing up different traditions with no spirited idea gives very cheesy results, blurs the form (is it me who speaks with words so wise? Oh, my).
Where was I...
It certainly doesn't bother me as much as low level rock-folk bands do, I mean those guys who try to cover their fiddler's inability with loud rock riffs repeating base chords and oompah percussion beat. Have plenty of those around here, a real pain in the... what you call it... lower back.
Disclaimer: Again, I don't mind rock-folk, if it's done well and with an interesting idea.
# Posted on November 21st 2003 by Janek
Re: Crossover Celtic
Ha Ha, Q--laughing to myself (LTM?) at the visual of African tourists buying up all the bagpipes in Scotland and sitting round trying to play them, smoking pot, etc. :D
# Posted on November 21st 2003 by Andee
Re: Crossover Celtic
What do you mean, 'update or modernize a traditional tune'? A lot of traditional tunes are modern, are they not. And one thing that Shooglenifty, Afro-Celts etc DON'T do is modernise tunes, they simply take a tune or write a trad sounding tune and graft it on to a modern (i.e. pop/rock/dance) arrangement. In a way it's just like what Moby does with blues and gospel music, it's a sort of sampling. And indeed, what do you mean by 'modern'? To me modern is the style of the first half/three quarters of the 20th Century - Stravinsky, Le Corbusier, Messaen, Picasso etc. Aren't we now in the post-modern era. I quite like Shooglenifty, sometimes like the Afro-Celts, and think that Kila are fantastic, but for modern music you can't beat Paddy Keenan, he 'modernises' the tunes far more than any of the bead wavers.
# Posted on November 21st 2003 by Ottery
Compare a lot of the crossover guff with a sensitive, restrained, powerful album like, to name but one, Mick O'Brien and Caoimh
# Posted on November 22nd 2003 by Aidan Crossey
Re: Crossover Celtic
I'd advise care when talking about post-modernism and music. At varsity, I remember a visiting musicology PHD student waxing lyrical about how wonderfully postmodern it was to borrow a bit of rhythm from this culture, a bit of melodic variation from that, some aesthetics from pop culture and jazz - all these amazing musical 'colours' thrown into the pot to create a beautiful rainbow of sound.
Which is great if it works. But as any pre-schooler will tell you, when a mix a whole bunch of colours in a pot, usually you just get a kind of sludgy brown
To what extent you can apply that analogy to prog-trad depends, as always, on your taste.
# Posted on November 22nd 2003 by Q
Re: Crossover Celtic
In other words, crossover sucks unless you like it.
# Posted on November 22nd 2003 by Dr. Dow
apologies, "when a mix" should of course read: "when you mix"
# Posted on November 22nd 2003 by Q
Re: Crossover Celtic
I'm starting to warm to the idea of going to Scotland, buying some pipes and getting stoned with a bunch of Africans.
# Posted on November 22nd 2003 by Ottery
Re: Crossover Celtic
Had great craic with a band in Italy called "Sharadi" who blended in a sitar and tabla playing raga form on Lord Lovat's lament & panmure House
# Posted on November 22nd 2003 by Joe Quinn
Re: Crossover Celtic
So - what's going on here? Sounds like Plate Tectonic Theory of Celto-ethnomusicology, complete with subduction zones. But, like all the kings horses and all the king's men, we're trying to put back together again things that don't fit any more. I personally like the noises that ACSS and Shooglenifty and Heritage and Citania and Milladoiro make, and I'm in love with the music of the new generation of Italian box players...and Swedish fiddle players (nicely wierd, though)...I've even heard some gorgeous Finnish box playing. It's great that trad music is not just an Irish, or even Scottish, thing, but why try and make connections that were never there, or severed for 1-2 millenia?
Let's get real and agree we like or not the sound these bands make - but don't swallow too much of the record companies' hype, pushing the celtic thing down our collective throat. It's a marketing ploy they've hit upon and we, the exponents, should be the last to fall for it.
# Posted on November 22nd 2003 by Rudall the time
Re: Crossover Celtic
Shooglenifty are better than the others, I dont like kila at all, but as Danny says - there is loads of great music out there but we dont need to mix it all up!
# Posted on November 23rd 2003 by bb
Re: Crossover Celtic
Eh up Ottery!
When you go and get stoned with the Africans, can I come too - there's still some black puddings left and a few kippers.
Seriously though - Danny's right about not falling for marketing hype. But the real truth is what Dow says "crossover sucks unless you like it".
Some people like the Beatles ( ! ). Some people like things such as "The Chicago Philharmonic Plays the Beatles Greatest Hits" ( !! ). You like what you like and I like what I like, and so long as nobody tells me what I should and shouldn't like then thats ok. My own personal preference cuts out electric guitars and drum kits - but only from "Traditional" music. They went well enough in Topographic Oceans and Close to the Edge back in the 70s symphonic rock - which I still listen to.
I think that gratuitously mixing things together is like the brown plasticine analogy that Q gives.
Or chocolate coated Kippers, with curry sauce.
Dave
# Posted on November 24th 2003 by showaddydadito
Re: Crossover Celtic
Forgive me father, I know not what I do.....
I actually will admit to enjoying Ivers & co of Immigrant Soul. Didn't get caught in the hype, heard her, et al. perform w/ the Boston Pops. Liked what I heard and bought the disc. She's a great fiddler and the rest of the band seem to be great as well. I don't have a steady diet of the "cross -over" variety. It just depends on the mood, the Ivers disc is energetic, and at times I'm in the mood for that. I don't generally adhere to anyone's right or wrong, If I enjoy it, that's all that matters.
Again, forgive me father!!
Deb.
# Posted on November 24th 2003 by Agnes Nutter
Re: Crossover Celtic
Spot on, Dave! I may or may not like the progressive / crossover stuff, only depending on the sound that hits my ears, not because it's *artistically or aesthetically* wrong - who gives a toss? Must say, I hated the Swarbrick / Fairport thing in the early days. That fiddle tone & senseless drums were atrocious!! Still, lots of tasty, clever, rousing, uplifting stuff has come out from so many others since then.
Jim
# Posted on November 24th 2003 by Worldfiddler
Re: Crossover Celtic
Go Danny. While some influences I like (see Gleantain Ghlas Gaoth Dobhair by Altan wi' a dij) there are others i do not want to contemplate... like afro celt. Blind Old Dogs' percussion is annoying... but they still do good music.
# Posted on November 25th 2003 by Pádraig