Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
pointless question, you're never gonna stop it. Just like you're never gonna stop band members from rolling out their gig arrangements in the session.
But from a drummer's point of view ... how else are they gonna get a say in the music? Other than get the session members organised in a band? Maybe if more drummers did that, they'll stop feeling the need to ruin the session.
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
I would say a lot of players would love to be asked to join a group. It's quite a privilege, provided it's a good group, or has the potential to be.
Not a great idea to bring it up in mid session. Ask the player in question discretely afterwards. And maybe not the first time you meet him or her either. You want to get to know a potential new band member a bit first.
After all, where else are you going to meet good players if not in a session? Sessions are as much about meeting and getting to know people as they are about tunes.
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
Understood. But how do you feel personally about this use of a session? Do you think it has a positive or negative impact on the session? Would you want it taken away from the session IF it could be?
As for the "drummers point of view", not all drummers feel the need to have a say, in the way some leads do. Good drummers add depth and support, not grabbing for the front seat.
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
One of the few things that bands and sessions have in common is the best of both have neither leaders nor support. Just like any bunch of mates.
Of course I have no problem with people meeting in the session and becoming mates and getting bands together, it's a great thing. As tradshark says, sessions are as much about meeting and getting to know people as they are about tunes. And just hanging about with your chums, of course.
What I would be wary of though, would be when someone's primary purpose for being there was to "recruit".
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
Yeah, what's going on? Are you recruiting people? Is it an audition? Are you interrupting the session to talk band business? Did it all happen properly, behind the scenes, but now there is hurt feelings among the ones who didn't get asked? Are aliens invading the pub? How many times did yaalhouse change trousers?
Seriously though, more detail, please. What specifically is the 'it' that could possible cause anything at all, positive or negative?
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
its been hours since we had the " is a session a performance "palarva
I think why not ?how else do you find band members you like both personally and whose playing you admire.
Just remember that they are not the same thing.
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
If you mean that the session then loses the good players, because they feel that they need to always perform, then it is unfortunate, but who on earth is going to say musicians can't move on?
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
Down the pub, you can happily take the p i s s out your chums for being cantankerous miserable gits or tight-fisted teetotal feckers or ... etc.
Just remember though, it's a completely different kettle of kippers over breakfast, in the tour bus, at the services, back on the bus, at the sound ckeck ... etc. week after week after week.
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
I'm not sure I understand the question - surely meeting like-minded musicians is one of the main reasons for going to sessions. And if your wanting to form a band, it's pretty obvious that these are the people you're going to ask. I can't see why anyone would object.
But what is objectionable is when band members want to play as a band within the session.
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
Are you recruiting people? Is it an audition? Are you interrupting the session to talk band business? Did it all happen properly, behind the scenes, but now there is hurt feelings among the ones who didn't get asked?
"It" being some using the session as a vehicle to find, recruit and audition new players for outside gigs. There is also the dynamic of feelings being hurt in the "not asked" ones.
My original point in the question is "Is it tabo to use the session to start this process".
Does anyone have a memory of a band forming out of some of the session players that ruined the session group completely?
No aliens, thought there was this idiot in a leprechaun suit the other day, does that count?
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
There are lots of things that can potentially ruin a session. If someone goes to a session with that as their sole agenda then that has the potential to ruin an open session. If someone goes to a session to play in the session, but they also happen to be looking for players to start a group, what does it matter? Not everyone goes to sessions for the same reasons, so therefore everyone gains different things from the experience. If a person gains a musician for a group out of it, so be it. The real question should be: am I ruining the session?
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
My main reason for going to music sessions is to play music. Socializing with the other musicians when we aren't playing music is my secondary reason.
Invitations to join bands or refusals to invite someone to join a band didn't occur at our local sessions. This type of activity happened outside of the sessions.
I was flattered when I was invited to join a band by some of the musicians whom I met and played music with at the local sessions. After this band broke up, though, I wasn't invited to join another band for nine years.
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
That's the real question. Are the activities here ruining the session? Do people feel like they're being graded and examined? Are you forcing people to session at a band practice?
Or, is Bob just ticked because Mary asked Sam to be in the band, and not Bob?
There's no taboo. How else are you going to meet and play with like-minded musicians who may want to form a band and do gigs? That being said, common sense and courtesy usually provide a framework for acting decently.
For example, is Bob just being whiny, or did Mary go about this with Sam in some obnoxious and rude way? "Hey Sam, when we play that at that gig Saturday, don't play it like Bob does!"
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
I'd like to think it's not about being petty. The friendship of the whole session group is very important to the level of play and enjoyment. The balancing act is when the side projects begin to form outside the session and some are not included. I wouldn't want to loose their friendship and the oportunity to play session tunes with everyone.
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
You won't *lose* their friendship unless the friendship was fairly *loose* to begin with.
Sorry. Couldn't resist. Bugbear of mine.
I'd say try not to bring such side projects into the session. Keep them as totally separate activities. If those that are not included have an objection, tough. It's none of their business.
I don't get up on my high horse if a player friend does a gig with someone else. My turn always comes around. That's how it goes. Don't mix business with pleasure.
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
A session with people wanting to play together, will tend to continue beyond the lifespan of most performance bands. For the sake of the session, as well as any potential band, it is prudent to have the least amount of overlap. {preferably none} Fair play to start off one of the bands' sets during session. But practicing a band *arrangement*, of said set, could set up an odd hierarchy. Having said that, a band does need to practice. So, unless you want to ditch the aspect of playing in session, conduct practice on band time.
Not all sessions need to survive. The more a session is like band practice ~ working on arrangements, playing exactly the same sets every week, striving for the utmost consistency; the more its' members need to decide if that is what they want to do. Of course it is up to individual sessions to have the session they want. Just remember why it is you want to be playing with your mates. In either case enjoy the music. This is easy in a good session. & while a session may be a bit of work, IMHO that is not a good reason for its' existence.
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
I would be profoundly upset if a group showed up at a session I was trying to enjoy and practicing their arrangements. I don't think that was what the OP was asking. I think he was asking if it is okay to be seeking potential band member at a session. Unless, of course, I misunderstood.
Again, if it doesn't intrude upon the session, who cares?
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
I started a band once, maybe 25 years ago, out of a few session mates. We got posters printed and everthing. It was called Staying Power and I kid you not, we did one gig.
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
I appriciate the input. Even the occasional "slice of throat" served up. All good fun, though I should be wary. I've got the impression that some here are more than willing to serve Throat as a main course as well as an appetizer!
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
If you are going to form a band of trad musicians, how are you going to accomplish that without picking from the people that you play with in sessions? Where else do you meet trad players? Bands form out of sessions all the time.
Obviously you can't make the whole session a band (unless you have a really small session) so not everyone is included. Because of this, all playing of band sets, band discussion and other band nonsense should not take place during the session. From my experience, having a place to go and just relax and play tunes with friends, even if all your band mates are there, is a relief. All band stuff should stay at band practice, sessions are more social.
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
Bands form out of sessions, and band members who didn't previously play in sessions are drawn into sessions by their bandmates.
Amazing, eh?
Next, we discuss if it's ethical to pick pub football teams from people at the pub, and how this affects the complex interpersonal dynamic of pub football discussions
Pubs can be great places, though sometimes, for better or worse, stuff happens. The next time someone calls for a set of flings how about these; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gvgAy76aGs
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
In our sessions the main guys are people from bands.
And by the way, even on my first session I witnessed everything (well, not really) described above - recruiting, playing 'concert' sets and drummer/organizer .
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
Next, we discuss picking people from the pub quiz night to make a team to go on Eggheads.
Does it have a negative effect on the Monday night group dynamic?
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
I have watched band politics have a negative effect on sessions, especially when there's a "falling out" within a band, and then people refuse to even play in sessions with each other... But then again, I've seen that happen just in a session without band involvement...
But this is still highly preferable to a "band" I saw at a pub last week, who apparently thought that forming a band and doing a regular "gig" was a better way to learn how to play the music than a stuffy, judgmental session environment. So the performance was slow and included lots of sheet music. (And never more than one tune in a row, because they couldn't change to the next sheet music fast enough)
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
If you end up playing with people that all agree that they would like to play together, then you have a band. I play 4 sessions a week and ran into some folks that just seemed to want to play music together, How long it lasts is another question, but for now it is fun and very satisfying.
We are having fun, which is important, and improving our
playing skills, so I see no downside. The audiences that hear us seem to enjoy it, so we continue to play.
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
I think everyone has covered the pitfalls above--people who get along in a session finding that being business partners with those same people doesn't work quite as well, the group becoming a bloc within the session that starts doing arranged things, etc. The advantage is that the band members spend even more time together and can be a strong core for the session when everything goes well. I am in a session where members of the band I am in sometimes outnumber others in the session, and even though we work to keep the balance right, when the whole band is there, it tends to dominate things.
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
As well as looking out for suitable occasional stand-ins for my band, I am also on the lookout for promising beginners to encourage and let them sit in with the band to broaden their experience.
We have had quite a number of beginners who have sat in with us in their teens, gone off to music college and either joined ceili-soc and become real folkies, or even better, come back to play in the band.
session as a feeder pool for performance group
session as a feeder pool for performance group
Is it proper for a session to be used as a way of finding quality players for a band? Or should it be free of this dynamic?
I've got opinions from others on both sides of this and I like to hear what would or wouldn't float in your session.
For the record, I feel it's OK as long as it is done outside the circle and minimizes any impact on the spirit of the session.
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by mainiac
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
pointless question, you're never gonna stop it. Just like you're never gonna stop band members from rolling out their gig arrangements in the session.
But from a drummer's point of view ... how else are they gonna get a say in the music? Other than get the session members organised in a band? Maybe if more drummers did that, they'll stop feeling the need to ruin the session.
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by llig leahcim
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
I would say a lot of players would love to be asked to join a group. It's quite a privilege, provided it's a good group, or has the potential to be.
Not a great idea to bring it up in mid session. Ask the player in question discretely afterwards. And maybe not the first time you meet him or her either. You want to get to know a potential new band member a bit first.
After all, where else are you going to meet good players if not in a session? Sessions are as much about meeting and getting to know people as they are about tunes.
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by tradshark
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
Understood. But how do you feel personally about this use of a session? Do you think it has a positive or negative impact on the session? Would you want it taken away from the session IF it could be?
As for the "drummers point of view", not all drummers feel the need to have a say, in the way some leads do. Good drummers add depth and support, not grabbing for the front seat.
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by mainiac
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
One of the few things that bands and sessions have in common is the best of both have neither leaders nor support. Just like any bunch of mates.
Of course I have no problem with people meeting in the session and becoming mates and getting bands together, it's a great thing. As tradshark says, sessions are as much about meeting and getting to know people as they are about tunes. And just hanging about with your chums, of course.
What I would be wary of though, would be when someone's primary purpose for being there was to "recruit".
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by llig leahcim
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
I think we need more detail on 'what' exactly is taking place here.
Without knowing what 'it' is, there's no way to say 'it' has a positive or negative effect.
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
Yeah, what's going on? Are you recruiting people? Is it an audition? Are you interrupting the session to talk band business? Did it all happen properly, behind the scenes, but now there is hurt feelings among the ones who didn't get asked? Are aliens invading the pub? How many times did yaalhouse change trousers?
Seriously though, more detail, please. What specifically is the 'it' that could possible cause anything at all, positive or negative?
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
its been hours since we had the " is a session a performance "palarva
I think why not ?how else do you find band members you like both personally and whose playing you admire.
Just remember that they are not the same thing.
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by bazouki dave
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
If you mean that the session then loses the good players, because they feel that they need to always perform, then it is unfortunate, but who on earth is going to say musicians can't move on?
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by eiluned
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
Down the pub, you can happily take the p i s s out your chums for being cantankerous miserable gits or tight-fisted teetotal feckers or ... etc.
Just remember though, it's a completely different kettle of kippers over breakfast, in the tour bus, at the services, back on the bus, at the sound ckeck ... etc. week after week after week.
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by llig leahcim
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
I'm not sure I understand the question - surely meeting like-minded musicians is one of the main reasons for going to sessions. And if your wanting to form a band, it's pretty obvious that these are the people you're going to ask. I can't see why anyone would object.
But what is objectionable is when band members want to play as a band within the session.
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by skreech
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
Are you recruiting people? Is it an audition? Are you interrupting the session to talk band business? Did it all happen properly, behind the scenes, but now there is hurt feelings among the ones who didn't get asked?
"It" being some using the session as a vehicle to find, recruit and audition new players for outside gigs. There is also the dynamic of feelings being hurt in the "not asked" ones.
My original point in the question is "Is it tabo to use the session to start this process".
Does anyone have a memory of a band forming out of some of the session players that ruined the session group completely?
No aliens, thought there was this idiot in a leprechaun suit the other day, does that count?
".
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by mainiac
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
There are lots of things that can potentially ruin a session. If someone goes to a session with that as their sole agenda then that has the potential to ruin an open session. If someone goes to a session to play in the session, but they also happen to be looking for players to start a group, what does it matter? Not everyone goes to sessions for the same reasons, so therefore everyone gains different things from the experience. If a person gains a musician for a group out of it, so be it. The real question should be: am I ruining the session?
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
My main reason for going to music sessions is to play music. Socializing with the other musicians when we aren't playing music is my secondary reason.
Invitations to join bands or refusals to invite someone to join a band didn't occur at our local sessions. This type of activity happened outside of the sessions.
I was flattered when I was invited to join a band by some of the musicians whom I met and played music with at the local sessions. After this band broke up, though, I wasn't invited to join another band for nine years.
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
That's the real question. Are the activities here ruining the session? Do people feel like they're being graded and examined? Are you forcing people to session at a band practice?
Or, is Bob just ticked because Mary asked Sam to be in the band, and not Bob?
There's no taboo. How else are you going to meet and play with like-minded musicians who may want to form a band and do gigs? That being said, common sense and courtesy usually provide a framework for acting decently.
For example, is Bob just being whiny, or did Mary go about this with Sam in some obnoxious and rude way? "Hey Sam, when we play that at that gig Saturday, don't play it like Bob does!"
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
You can't ask him to ask himself if he thinks he's ruining the session, he plays the bodhran
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by llig leahcim
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
*snigger
Aw come on, llig, you can't tar them all with the same brush. It's just a bad 95% of them that give all the good ones a bad name.
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by tradshark
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
It's like asking a ramora if he thinks he's ruining the manta rays drag coefficient
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by llig leahcim
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
There's a bodhrán player in a local session here, and he plays so quietly, you wouldn't even know he's there.
Damn fine bodhrán player.
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by tradshark
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
I'd like to think it's not about being petty. The friendship of the whole session group is very important to the level of play and enjoyment. The balancing act is when the side projects begin to form outside the session and some are not included. I wouldn't want to loose their friendship and the oportunity to play session tunes with everyone.
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by mainiac
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
It asways comes down to the "bodhran thing". Should I apply for Protected Status or just start learning another instrument?lol
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by mainiac
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
correction: always!
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by mainiac
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
You won't *lose* their friendship unless the friendship was fairly *loose* to begin with.
Sorry. Couldn't resist. Bugbear of mine.
I'd say try not to bring such side projects into the session. Keep them as totally separate activities. If those that are not included have an objection, tough. It's none of their business.
I don't get up on my high horse if a player friend does a gig with someone else. My turn always comes around. That's how it goes. Don't mix business with pleasure.
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by tradshark
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
" or just start learning another instrument"
yes
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by bogman
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
A session with people wanting to play together, will tend to continue beyond the lifespan of most performance bands. For the sake of the session, as well as any potential band, it is prudent to have the least amount of overlap. {preferably none} Fair play to start off one of the bands' sets during session. But practicing a band *arrangement*, of said set, could set up an odd hierarchy. Having said that, a band does need to practice. So, unless you want to ditch the aspect of playing in session, conduct practice on band time.
Not all sessions need to survive. The more a session is like band practice ~ working on arrangements, playing exactly the same sets every week, striving for the utmost consistency; the more its' members need to decide if that is what they want to do. Of course it is up to individual sessions to have the session they want. Just remember why it is you want to be playing with your mates. In either case enjoy the music. This is easy in a good session. & while a session may be a bit of work, IMHO that is not a good reason for its' existence.
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
I would be profoundly upset if a group showed up at a session I was trying to enjoy and practicing their arrangements. I don't think that was what the OP was asking. I think he was asking if it is okay to be seeking potential band member at a session. Unless, of course, I misunderstood.
Again, if it doesn't intrude upon the session, who cares?
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
I started a band once, maybe 25 years ago, out of a few session mates. We got posters printed and everthing. It was called Staying Power and I kid you not, we did one gig.
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by llig leahcim
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
Exactly my point ~ how far do you go in seeking out potential members *at* session? You may be auditioning, Jimmy, & not even be aware.
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
25 years! About time for the reunioun tour. ;)
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
If I recall correctly, DeDanann was pulled together out of folks who went to the session at Hughes' pub in Spiddal.
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by Georgi
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
note that I included . . . the lifespan of *most* performance bands. . .
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
I appriciate the input. Even the occasional "slice of throat" served up. All good fun, though I should be wary. I've got the impression that some here are more than willing to serve Throat as a main course as well as an appetizer!
thanks again.
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by mainiac
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
Chop chop!
Hey man, you're the one talking about bands eating musicians swimming around in some sort of 'feeder pool'.
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
Yeh, somebody throw him a line, with a big hook on the end. I like a nice fillet of bodhran player. Unfortunatly though, it;s usually not rare enough
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by llig leahcim
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
If you are going to form a band of trad musicians, how are you going to accomplish that without picking from the people that you play with in sessions? Where else do you meet trad players? Bands form out of sessions all the time.
Obviously you can't make the whole session a band (unless you have a really small session) so not everyone is included. Because of this, all playing of band sets, band discussion and other band nonsense should not take place during the session. From my experience, having a place to go and just relax and play tunes with friends, even if all your band mates are there, is a relief. All band stuff should stay at band practice, sessions are more social.
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by fiddleK
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
Bands form out of sessions, and band members who didn't previously play in sessions are drawn into sessions by their bandmates.
Amazing, eh?
Next, we discuss if it's ethical to pick pub football teams from people at the pub, and how this affects the complex interpersonal dynamic of pub football discussions
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by Bren
Warning ~ country & western
Pubs can be great places, though sometimes, for better or worse, stuff happens. The next time someone calls for a set of flings how about these;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1gvgAy76aGs
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
In our sessions the main guys are people from bands.
.
And by the way, even on my first session I witnessed everything (well, not really) described above - recruiting, playing 'concert' sets and drummer/organizer
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by Elvellon
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
Next, we discuss picking people from the pub quiz night to make a team to go on Eggheads.
Does it have a negative effect on the Monday night group dynamic?
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by Bren
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
I have watched band politics have a negative effect on sessions, especially when there's a "falling out" within a band, and then people refuse to even play in sessions with each other... But then again, I've seen that happen just in a session without band involvement...
But this is still highly preferable to a "band" I saw at a pub last week, who apparently thought that forming a band and doing a regular "gig" was a better way to learn how to play the music than a stuffy, judgmental session environment. So the performance was slow and included lots of sheet music. (And never more than one tune in a row, because they couldn't change to the next sheet music fast enough)
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by Reverend
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
If you end up playing with people that all agree that they would like to play together, then you have a band. I play 4 sessions a week and ran into some folks that just seemed to want to play music together, How long it lasts is another question, but for now it is fun and very satisfying.
We are having fun, which is important, and improving our
playing skills, so I see no downside. The audiences that hear us seem to enjoy it, so we continue to play.
# Posted on March 20th 2010 by Celtic Guitar
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
I think everyone has covered the pitfalls above--people who get along in a session finding that being business partners with those same people doesn't work quite as well, the group becoming a bloc within the session that starts doing arranged things, etc. The advantage is that the band members spend even more time together and can be a strong core for the session when everything goes well. I am in a session where members of the band I am in sometimes outnumber others in the session, and even though we work to keep the balance right, when the whole band is there, it tends to dominate things.
# Posted on March 20th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
As well as looking out for suitable occasional stand-ins for my band, I am also on the lookout for promising beginners to encourage and let them sit in with the band to broaden their experience.
We have had quite a number of beginners who have sat in with us in their teens, gone off to music college and either joined ceili-soc and become real folkies, or even better, come back to play in the band.
# Posted on March 21st 2010 by geoffwright
Re: session as a feeder pool for performance group
geoff, I have seen young people go off to college, and come back far too good to be members of the band!
# Posted on March 21st 2010 by AlBrown