"It's probable that this tune was written with notes that were neither Bs or Bbs, or Fnats or Fsharps. The space between these notes was once used extensively in Ireland. Slip sliding about as the tune and your fancy took you, unencumbered by either "normal" western intonation conventions or the need for the degree of unison required by modern ensemble playing."
Re: Paddy Fay's?
Posted on March 17th 2010 by llig leahcim http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24087#comment502092
This comment caught my attention & I was wanting to hear what some of you think. Is the tradition loosing some nice subtleties? Are they still being played in session but not as prevalent. Or do you care?
Thanks in advance,
Ben
Aren't each of those encumbering "normal" western intonation conventions? Even though Ireland is western in regards to most of Europe, "western" being another one of those encumbering conventions.
A just intonation minor third (based on a 6/5 ratio) is 15.64% sharp of an equal tempered minor third.
A just intonation major third (based on a 5/4 ratio) is 13.69% flat of an equal tempered major third.
So, they are still a long way apart and so you wouldn't expect them to substitute for each other in a tune. There will be another just intonation ratio that approximates to the half-sharp note that lies somewhere between them. However that would be based on bigger numbers in the ratio and so it won't sound as harmonious.
This is exactly why learning by ear is so important. In the long run if a musician plays the music well, I really don't care how he/she got there, but it just seems to make sense that learning from ear, repetition, and from other players is really the only way that such a thing can be acheived. As one who is slowly divorcing himself from reliance on notation, I can honestly say that it feels like when I try to learn from the dots, I feel sort of isolated, less open. Not that I am anywhere near being about to slip slide as llig says, but I just don't see how it can be possible unless you are learning from ear and from people.
The way you've written the title of the thread is indicative of how this subject is thought of. You wrote, "Space between the notes". I wrote "Space between these notes".
Saying "the" notes belies a misunderstanding of what I said. It exposes the prejudice of the asumption that the proper and normal way to play music is with the (equal or just) division of the octave into 12. But I mentioned Bs and Bds, so I could refer to the space betwen "these" notes.
It's one of the reasons I bang on about the button boxes and fretted string instruments.
Without the division of the octave into 12, there's no temperament to mess with at all, so no worries about what that note is that is not on our scale. Without the tyranny of the scale, then...meh? Feh? Egg? Chicken? Cart? Horse?
I was actually hoping to consider other tunes with different spaces between different pitches. For example a pitch which is neither C# nor C natural, etc.
Fair play about using the term *the*, though I was thinking about *those* fretted instruments & boxes which lack these spaces & succumb to convention.
I recently heard a clip - connected to some thread on this site, possibly the recent one on Polkas - where Paddy Canny (I think) was playing The Cliffs Of Moher with these flexible notes - F, F#, maybe C, C# - and for the first time I 'got' the fascination of all this thing in Irish traditional playing.
Yes, I like tunes with the space in between C# and C natural. I've heard it called the "sweet" Cnat.
Garret Barry's Jig is a good example. I've Just read the comments in the tunes section and, typically of people who use the dots, there is no mention of it at all. Just talk of Csharps or Cnats, Bflats, Fnats etc.
'Is the tradition loosing some nice subtleties? Are they still being played in session but not as prevalent.'
Not where I live - yes we are aware of those notes and do play between the black and white keys on the piano. Lig is right though - playing a tune like Girl that broke my heart in a session can produce a cacophony (though that doesn't stop us).
Taking a bit of issue with 'button boxes and fretted string instruments' can't do this kind of thing - not in the same way, no, but if you are aware that is what you are aiming for you can slur or bend notes to get a sympathetic approximation.
Agree with you there Rob, regarding slurring or bending towards the desired sweetness ~ being less encumbered yet hearing something subtle. Not to say I'm there at all.
Playing an unfretted instrument has benefited my music enormously, especially vocally. Playing an unfretted instrument results in an increased awareness of and familiarity with the notes between the notes, whether intentional or otherwise.
If you play a note starting a little flat, slide through it and come out sharp, your ear accepts it. Singers do it as a matter of course, as do pipers and flutists and fiddlers. The C of an Uilleann chanter covers a lot of ground and is used to great effect by all pipers. Similarly Fs and Bs are played according to the players' wishes, not to how it is written on paper. Harmony is not an exact science.
Just go listen to any of Bobby Casey's solo recordings to hear how he creates such a precise wildness in his playing with little smears and leans onto these tones. Strikes me as fairly rare among players today, and it's a major part of what drew me to this music in the first place. Too many fiddlers and fluters today just play the "standard" notes and never listen for all the other tones that play so well against the tonal center of the tune or even just the phrase. Yvonne and Liz Kane play the old way, and I love that wildness.
This isn't the "space between the notes" at all. These *are* notes, essential tones, more typical and definitive than any western scale.
Martin Hayes and Kevin Burke then are Space Cadets. But still a
cleaned up version of what old timers like Casey, Jr Crehan and
Paddy Canny used to do.
A little while ago my attention was drawn to part of a music competition on TV - something to do with pop singers trying to be opera singers, I'm not sure. Anyway, a duet was in progress, a male pop singer singing along with a young woman (a professional opera singer), both with close-up mics - an important point this.
What struck me was the unusual sound of the duet. The girl was gently and naturally sliding on and off notes as a trained singer will do. The pop singer was so spot-on with his intonation that it sounded like midi and clashed with the girl's singing. I then realised what was happening - his voice was being fed from his close mic into autotune (or similar) so that inconsistencies in his intonation were ironed out in real time. The girl's singing obviously wasn't autotuned. The overall effect of that duet was bizarre and ugly.
In his notes to the tunes in his book "Irish Fiddle Solos" Pete Cooper mentions that in the Lucy Farr version of The Pullet And The Cock the c in Part B should be played sharp as a quarter-tone half-way between c-nat and c#. He uses a notation for this in the book. For me, if I play that note on the fiddle as a true c-nat or c# it just doesn't sound right; but the quarter-tone c does. There was genius in using a quarter-tone to represent the crowing of the cock.
By mere coincidence I am playing a couple of slip jigs in G. I have to say Michael, I do prefer the C you just posted instead of the one my tuner wants me to play. Cheers!
Llig, I will be trying that one finger sweetened C the next time I pick up a whistle. You are again contradicting your own statement that this website is not a good resource, by giving out new nuggets of information.
Love this concept and subscribe to it...in the hands of folks who have learned to do it right. I've not heard it in the sessions I've been to, but then most of those aren't really Irish. I would hope this is not going away. I can certainly understand how it is a part of the tradition. That sort of thing is a part of many traditions (blues comes to mind), and cna be truly important to the sound of the music. Definitely worth the cacophony that results when the sound is mixed with box and fretted instruments. And just as definitely not a matter of just or equal or meantone intonation of any kind. Lonely is right. It isn't the space between the notes it really is a note.
I seem to remember listening to Fidil recently and hearing variations in temperament used to good effect.
One ethnomusicologist, analysing french fiddlers has identifed between 6 and 10 different pitch values which can be chosen between f and f# depending on personal choice and desire to sound good against a note on the A string (open A, D, etc.)
Paddy Canny's 1955 recording of the Yellow Tinker is another where the shades of tuning can be heard and felt. The musical space and the tone are the same, but suddenly it is a different dialect and flavour.
Here is a relevant historical extract (a little lengthy) from the Foreword to The Roche Collection of Traditional Irish Music (scanned with OCR software):
It has been claimed that the Irish scales differ from modern scales not only in the distribution of the tones and semitones, but also in the very important matter of intonation; that is to say that the intervals between the notes in the Irish scales and in the modern scales are not identical, so that for example the Irish scale of do does not coincide with the natural scale of do, nor with the tempered scale as we have it on the piano. Dr. Henebry is the great champion of this claim. It is undoubtedly a fact that the intonation of the traditional Irish singer and the traditional Irish fiddler differs from the intonation of the modern singer and the modern violinist. It is a fact also that the old melodies lose much of their savour when rendered with any but the traditional intonation. Dr. Henebry who has the advantage of being able to play the violin in the traditional Irish style, is investigating this matter in a scientific manner, and we may expect much valuable information as a result of his inquiries. He has already issued a brochure on the subject, but as it appeared when he had little more than begun his investigations, it would not be fair to regard it as his final statement of the case. No investigation of this subject can be regarded as complete which does not include the method of tuning used by the Irish harpers. The harp was the most character-istic instrument of old Irish music. It was used not only as an independent instrument, but as an accom-paniment to the voice. Might it be that there were two elements to be distinguished in early Irish music, the folk music which would be preserved for us by the traditional singer, and the music of the harper or professional musician, of whom no specimen survives ? Any good traditional Singer or Violin-player can reproduce for us the tradition of the folk-music. It is only when listening to Owen Lloyd that we can form an idea of what the educated harpist must have been.
It is to be regretted, but it is inevitable that we should hear so much about traditional Irish music from those who are not competent to discuss it. On the one hand we have musicians who deny the element of traditional intonation. As they refuse to study the matter in the only way in which it can be studied, i.e. by listening to the best traditional singers and violin-players, their opinion can have no weight. On the other hand we have the extremists who regard every native speaker of Irish as a true exponent of traditional singing. Sometimes he is only an exponent of singing out of tune.
As far as music is concerned we in Ireland to-day are like the Queen in her counting house. We are counting -Jl our money. But a time is at hand when we shall do more—when we shall begin to add to it. And just as the Queen's head may change on her coinage as the years and the decades pass, so we may look for change and development in our music, change and development that shall leave it none the less our own. The image may change on the coin, but the coin will be always the Queen's
The piano and the orchestra will have their say in the development of our music. These will render compositions for us in all the five traditional modes, or in such modifications of them as time may work necessary. But what of our intonation ? Here we must be satisfied with the tempered scale as are all modern nations. But this need not prevent us from producing a school of music as essentially Irish as are the oldest of our melodies. France and Germany and Italy use the self-same scales, but the music of these countries differs as essentially as do the people. After all the great force which divides the arjt of one nation from the art of another is national character; so that the most essential element in the ancient melodies of Ireland is not the five modes, nor the gapped scales, nor the traditional intonation, but it is the soul and the spirit of the Gael which is revealed in them all. When Ireland is strong enough to reveal herself again in music as she has done in the past, that music will be essentially Irish even though it be built on the major and minor scales of modern times.
Still the old intonation may always be preserved in compositions for the voice or for violin solo. Whether this shall be or not, none can say. But it will be always impossible to give a perfect rendering of our old melodies except with the old intonation. Hence the experiments of Dr. Henebry have a special value; for they may preserve for future generations this element which might otherwise so easily perish. Then would our children receive the dry bones of our early music, but never again should they see it clothed in the flesh.
CATHAOIR O'BRAONAIN,
UM NODLAG, 1909.
In the Preface to Volume III of the Roche Collection (published 1927) the editor further remarks:
Some features of the "traditional style" have been referred to in the earlier preface. Other features of it are the compromised semitones between Ni and Fa, Ti and Do, together with the intricate syncopated bowings and the various graces and embellishments. A high pitch or rough robust tone, particularly in the old airs, is not in consonance with the traditional style on the Violin.
"It is to be regretted, but it is inevitable that we should hear so much about traditional Irish music from those who are not competent to discuss it."
So apparently we sesh.orgers (the majority of us, anyway) are part of a 100-year-old tradition, ourselves!
The title first drew me in because of other suggestions there, silences and bursts of energy, articulation, things subtle and bold, choices that give accent to the language of music. But those 'notes' between the tempered scale, those are like rare rough gems, beautiful, sensual, emotional. As MLH mentioned, they draw you in, or at least draw me in, and sometimes the tempered scale just feels clumsy and ill defined. I love how the voice will find natural harmonies and avoide the tempered scale, unless forced to follow that straight jacket by a more dominant and tyrannical instrument like a piano, or a full bore accordion. Sometimes it makes sense, when faced by such behemouths of the musical world, to quietly slip out and distract oneself by other means than being swallowed up by the abuse of power such things and their button pushing owners can weild.
Roche, great, and just to repeat one small part of that ~
" ~ to study the matter in the only way in which it can be studied, i.e. by listening to the best traditional singers and violin-players ~ "
~ In the Preface to Volume III of the Roche Collection, 1927
Admission of bias ~ having been recently subjected to a full bore instrument, four reeds, all selected, and a flat legato style of playing. In other words ~ 'mush'! But there are some who are more gifted and considerate and do not feel the need to lead and dominate with their HGV squeeze... And some can bend those notes, or touch lightly so as not to force the 'temper'...
Space between the notes;
Space between the notes;
"It's probable that this tune was written with notes that were neither Bs or Bbs, or Fnats or Fsharps. The space between these notes was once used extensively in Ireland. Slip sliding about as the tune and your fancy took you, unencumbered by either "normal" western intonation conventions or the need for the degree of unison required by modern ensemble playing."
Re: Paddy Fay's?
Posted on March 17th 2010 by llig leahcim
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/24087#comment502092
This comment caught my attention & I was wanting to hear what some of you think. Is the tradition loosing some nice subtleties? Are they still being played in session but not as prevalent. Or do you care?
Thanks in advance,
Ben
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Space between the notes;
Extra Credit: Equal versus just temperament and its effects.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Space between the notes;
Aren't each of those encumbering "normal" western intonation conventions? Even though Ireland is western in regards to most of Europe, "western" being another one of those encumbering conventions.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Space between the notes;
I'm not sure that just intonation alone explains this.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal_temperament
A just intonation minor third (based on a 6/5 ratio) is 15.64% sharp of an equal tempered minor third.
A just intonation major third (based on a 5/4 ratio) is 13.69% flat of an equal tempered major third.
So, they are still a long way apart and so you wouldn't expect them to substitute for each other in a tune. There will be another just intonation ratio that approximates to the half-sharp note that lies somewhere between them. However that would be based on bigger numbers in the ratio and so it won't sound as harmonious.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: Space between the notes;
My humble and novice opinion:
This is exactly why learning by ear is so important. In the long run if a musician plays the music well, I really don't care how he/she got there, but it just seems to make sense that learning from ear, repetition, and from other players is really the only way that such a thing can be acheived. As one who is slowly divorcing himself from reliance on notation, I can honestly say that it feels like when I try to learn from the dots, I feel sort of isolated, less open. Not that I am anywhere near being about to slip slide as llig says, but I just don't see how it can be possible unless you are learning from ear and from people.
There. Amateur opinion No. 1 posted.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Space between the notes;
The way you've written the title of the thread is indicative of how this subject is thought of. You wrote, "Space between the notes". I wrote "Space between these notes".
Saying "the" notes belies a misunderstanding of what I said. It exposes the prejudice of the asumption that the proper and normal way to play music is with the (equal or just) division of the octave into 12. But I mentioned Bs and Bds, so I could refer to the space betwen "these" notes.
It's one of the reasons I bang on about the button boxes and fretted string instruments.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by llig leahcim
Re: Space between the notes;
Bbs (sorry, dyslexia)
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by llig leahcim
Re: Space between the notes;
Without the division of the octave into 12, there's no temperament to mess with at all, so no worries about what that note is that is not on our scale. Without the tyranny of the scale, then...meh? Feh? Egg? Chicken? Cart? Horse?
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Space between the notes;
The blunt notes.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by timmy!
Re: Space between the notes;
I was actually hoping to consider other tunes with different spaces between different pitches. For example a pitch which is neither C# nor C natural, etc.
Fair play about using the term *the*, though I was thinking about *those* fretted instruments & boxes which lack these spaces & succumb to convention.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Space between the notes;
I recently heard a clip - connected to some thread on this site, possibly the recent one on Polkas - where Paddy Canny (I think) was playing The Cliffs Of Moher with these flexible notes - F, F#, maybe C, C# - and for the first time I 'got' the fascination of all this thing in Irish traditional playing.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by nicholas
Re: Space between the notes;
Yes, I like tunes with the space in between C# and C natural. I've heard it called the "sweet" Cnat.
Garret Barry's Jig is a good example. I've Just read the comments in the tunes section and, typically of people who use the dots, there is no mention of it at all. Just talk of Csharps or Cnats, Bflats, Fnats etc.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by llig leahcim
Re: Space between the notes;
'Is the tradition loosing some nice subtleties? Are they still being played in session but not as prevalent.'
Not where I live - yes we are aware of those notes and do play between the black and white keys on the piano. Lig is right though - playing a tune like Girl that broke my heart in a session can produce a cacophony (though that doesn't stop us).
Taking a bit of issue with 'button boxes and fretted string instruments' can't do this kind of thing - not in the same way, no, but if you are aware that is what you are aiming for you can slur or bend notes to get a sympathetic approximation.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by Rob
Re: Space between these & those;
Agree with you there Rob, regarding slurring or bending towards the desired sweetness ~ being less encumbered yet hearing something subtle. Not to say I'm there at all.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Space between the notes;
Equal temperament is *so* unjust.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Space between the notes;
The space between the notes is one of the reasons I took up the fiddle after twenty-ish years on fretted instruments.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Space between the notes;
Playing an unfretted instrument has benefited my music enormously, especially vocally. Playing an unfretted instrument results in an increased awareness of and familiarity with the notes between the notes, whether intentional or otherwise.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: Space between the notes;
If you play a note starting a little flat, slide through it and come out sharp, your ear accepts it. Singers do it as a matter of course, as do pipers and flutists and fiddlers. The C of an Uilleann chanter covers a lot of ground and is used to great effect by all pipers. Similarly Fs and Bs are played according to the players' wishes, not to how it is written on paper. Harmony is not an exact science.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by gam
Space between notes
Yes, sigh, the bends and the quiet places too... I love em'... And not forgetting between F# and G too, but it don't stop there...
# Posted on March 18th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Space between the notes;
Just go listen to any of Bobby Casey's solo recordings to hear how he creates such a precise wildness in his playing with little smears and leans onto these tones. Strikes me as fairly rare among players today, and it's a major part of what drew me to this music in the first place. Too many fiddlers and fluters today just play the "standard" notes and never listen for all the other tones that play so well against the tonal center of the tune or even just the phrase. Yvonne and Liz Kane play the old way, and I love that wildness.
This isn't the "space between the notes" at all. These *are* notes, essential tones, more typical and definitive than any western scale.
# Posted on March 18th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Space between the notes;
Martin Hayes and Kevin Burke then are Space Cadets. But still a
cleaned up version of what old timers like Casey, Jr Crehan and
Paddy Canny used to do.
# Posted on March 18th 2010 by Hup
Re: Space between the notes;
A little while ago my attention was drawn to part of a music competition on TV - something to do with pop singers trying to be opera singers, I'm not sure. Anyway, a duet was in progress, a male pop singer singing along with a young woman (a professional opera singer), both with close-up mics - an important point this.
What struck me was the unusual sound of the duet. The girl was gently and naturally sliding on and off notes as a trained singer will do. The pop singer was so spot-on with his intonation that it sounded like midi and clashed with the girl's singing. I then realised what was happening - his voice was being fed from his close mic into autotune (or similar) so that inconsistencies in his intonation were ironed out in real time. The girl's singing obviously wasn't autotuned. The overall effect of that duet was bizarre and ugly.
# Posted on March 18th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Space between the notes;
I suspect some people's ears are being autotuned by listening to too much studio-cleansed stuff masquerading as music.
# Posted on March 18th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Space between the notes;
In his notes to the tunes in his book "Irish Fiddle Solos" Pete Cooper mentions that in the Lucy Farr version of The Pullet And The Cock the c in Part B should be played sharp as a quarter-tone half-way between c-nat and c#. He uses a notation for this in the book. For me, if I play that note on the fiddle as a true c-nat or c# it just doesn't sound right; but the quarter-tone c does. There was genius in using a quarter-tone to represent the crowing of the cock.
# Posted on March 18th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Space between the notes;
OXX XXX
OXO OOO
XXO OOO
OXX XXX
D, sweet C, A, D. It's quite a common little run on the flute, pipes and fiddle.
# Posted on March 18th 2010 by llig leahcim
Re: Space between the notes;
C'mon now. I was doing that C until a couple of weeks ago when I pulled out my tuner. Ah, Jayzus.
# Posted on March 18th 2010 by Ben Steen
~
By mere coincidence I am playing a couple of slip jigs in G. I have to say Michael, I do prefer the C you just posted instead of the one my tuner wants me to play. Cheers!
# Posted on March 18th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Space between the notes;
Llig, I will be trying that one finger sweetened C the next time I pick up a whistle. You are again contradicting your own statement that this website is not a good resource, by giving out new nuggets of information.
# Posted on March 18th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Space between the notes;
Love this concept and subscribe to it...in the hands of folks who have learned to do it right. I've not heard it in the sessions I've been to, but then most of those aren't really Irish. I would hope this is not going away. I can certainly understand how it is a part of the tradition. That sort of thing is a part of many traditions (blues comes to mind), and cna be truly important to the sound of the music. Definitely worth the cacophony that results when the sound is mixed with box and fretted instruments. And just as definitely not a matter of just or equal or meantone intonation of any kind. Lonely is right. It isn't the space between the notes it really is a note.
# Posted on March 18th 2010 by cboody
Re: Space between the notes;
I seem to remember listening to Fidil recently and hearing variations in temperament used to good effect.
One ethnomusicologist, analysing french fiddlers has identifed between 6 and 10 different pitch values which can be chosen between f and f# depending on personal choice and desire to sound good against a note on the A string (open A, D, etc.)
# Posted on March 18th 2010 by Tirno
Re: Space between the notes;
Paddy Canny's 1955 recording of the Yellow Tinker is another where the shades of tuning can be heard and felt. The musical space and the tone are the same, but suddenly it is a different dialect and flavour.
# Posted on March 18th 2010 by Martin_BC
Re: Space between the notes;
Here is a relevant historical extract (a little lengthy) from the Foreword to The Roche Collection of Traditional Irish Music (scanned with OCR software):
It has been claimed that the Irish scales differ from modern scales not only in the distribution of the tones and semitones, but also in the very important matter of intonation; that is to say that the intervals between the notes in the Irish scales and in the modern scales are not identical, so that for example the Irish scale of do does not coincide with the natural scale of do, nor with the tempered scale as we have it on the piano. Dr. Henebry is the great champion of this claim. It is undoubtedly a fact that the intonation of the traditional Irish singer and the traditional Irish fiddler differs from the intonation of the modern singer and the modern violinist. It is a fact also that the old melodies lose much of their savour when rendered with any but the traditional intonation. Dr. Henebry who has the advantage of being able to play the violin in the traditional Irish style, is investigating this matter in a scientific manner, and we may expect much valuable information as a result of his inquiries. He has already issued a brochure on the subject, but as it appeared when he had little more than begun his investigations, it would not be fair to regard it as his final statement of the case. No investigation of this subject can be regarded as complete which does not include the method of tuning used by the Irish harpers. The harp was the most character-istic instrument of old Irish music. It was used not only as an independent instrument, but as an accom-paniment to the voice. Might it be that there were two elements to be distinguished in early Irish music, the folk music which would be preserved for us by the traditional singer, and the music of the harper or professional musician, of whom no specimen survives ? Any good traditional Singer or Violin-player can reproduce for us the tradition of the folk-music. It is only when listening to Owen Lloyd that we can form an idea of what the educated harpist must have been.
It is to be regretted, but it is inevitable that we should hear so much about traditional Irish music from those who are not competent to discuss it. On the one hand we have musicians who deny the element of traditional intonation. As they refuse to study the matter in the only way in which it can be studied, i.e. by listening to the best traditional singers and violin-players, their opinion can have no weight. On the other hand we have the extremists who regard every native speaker of Irish as a true exponent of traditional singing. Sometimes he is only an exponent of singing out of tune.
As far as music is concerned we in Ireland to-day are like the Queen in her counting house. We are counting -Jl our money. But a time is at hand when we shall do more—when we shall begin to add to it. And just as the Queen's head may change on her coinage as the years and the decades pass, so we may look for change and development in our music, change and development that shall leave it none the less our own. The image may change on the coin, but the coin will be always the Queen's
The piano and the orchestra will have their say in the development of our music. These will render compositions for us in all the five traditional modes, or in such modifications of them as time may work necessary. But what of our intonation ? Here we must be satisfied with the tempered scale as are all modern nations. But this need not prevent us from producing a school of music as essentially Irish as are the oldest of our melodies. France and Germany and Italy use the self-same scales, but the music of these countries differs as essentially as do the people. After all the great force which divides the arjt of one nation from the art of another is national character; so that the most essential element in the ancient melodies of Ireland is not the five modes, nor the gapped scales, nor the traditional intonation, but it is the soul and the spirit of the Gael which is revealed in them all. When Ireland is strong enough to reveal herself again in music as she has done in the past, that music will be essentially Irish even though it be built on the major and minor scales of modern times.
Still the old intonation may always be preserved in compositions for the voice or for violin solo. Whether this shall be or not, none can say. But it will be always impossible to give a perfect rendering of our old melodies except with the old intonation. Hence the experiments of Dr. Henebry have a special value; for they may preserve for future generations this element which might otherwise so easily perish. Then would our children receive the dry bones of our early music, but never again should they see it clothed in the flesh.
CATHAOIR O'BRAONAIN,
UM NODLAG, 1909.
In the Preface to Volume III of the Roche Collection (published 1927) the editor further remarks:
Some features of the "traditional style" have been referred to in the earlier preface. Other features of it are the compromised semitones between Ni and Fa, Ti and Do, together with the intricate syncopated bowings and the various graces and embellishments. A high pitch or rough robust tone, particularly in the old airs, is not in consonance with the traditional style on the Violin.
[Note the last sentence!]
# Posted on March 18th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Space between the notes;
"It is to be regretted, but it is inevitable that we should hear so much about traditional Irish music from those who are not competent to discuss it."
So apparently we sesh.orgers (the majority of us, anyway) are part of a 100-year-old tradition, ourselves!
# Posted on March 18th 2010 by John Galt
Re: Space between the notes;
The "Ni" in the last paragraph should have transcribed as "Mi".
# Posted on March 18th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Space between the notes;
Good point, tuckered!
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Space between the notes;
>The "Ni" in the last paragraph should have transcribed as "M
I had just assumed that Cathaior had been knighted.
- chris
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Spaces & notes between the notes ~
The title first drew me in because of other suggestions there, silences and bursts of energy, articulation, things subtle and bold, choices that give accent to the language of music. But those 'notes' between the tempered scale, those are like rare rough gems, beautiful, sensual, emotional. As MLH mentioned, they draw you in, or at least draw me in, and sometimes the tempered scale just feels clumsy and ill defined. I love how the voice will find natural harmonies and avoide the tempered scale, unless forced to follow that straight jacket by a more dominant and tyrannical instrument like a piano, or a full bore accordion. Sometimes it makes sense, when faced by such behemouths of the musical world, to quietly slip out and distract oneself by other means than being swallowed up by the abuse of power such things and their button pushing owners can weild.
Roche, great, and just to repeat one small part of that ~
" ~ to study the matter in the only way in which it can be studied, i.e. by listening to the best traditional singers and violin-players ~ "
~ In the Preface to Volume III of the Roche Collection, 1927
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by ceolachan
Admission of bias ~ having been recently subjected to a full bore instrument, four reeds, all selected, and a flat legato style of playing. In other words ~ 'mush'! But there are some who are more gifted and considerate and do not feel the need to lead and dominate with their HGV squeeze... And some can bend those notes, or touch lightly so as not to force the 'temper'...
# Posted on March 19th 2010 by ceolachan