I play mandolin and tenor banjo – both tuned GDAE, though an octave apart. When I learn a tune on one instrument, I can play it on the other. When I’m just playing or practicing by myself or in a small group I prefer the mandolin, but need to use the banjo for playing in our session – the mandolin is too quiet. So, this leads to a question…
Do you have any insights or observations regarding the extent to which practicing one instrument helps with better playing on a different, similar instrument? Can I achieve improvement in general by practicing on the mandolin, or do I need to just concentrate on the banjo?
I realize that there are many instrument-specific things that are non-transferable – I’m wondering about more general things like speed, phrasing, timing, definition, dexterity, relaxation, etc.
One answer: Practice is mostly mental. When you play through a tune, you're working it out in your mind much more than in your fingers, if you're doing it right. Playing a tune on any instrument should help you get it down better, leading to speed, timing, definition, and all the rest of it. As a matter of fact, if you "play" a tune in your head - without the instrument, just visualizing the fingerings and the picking and "listening" to the results in your mind's ear - you'll do yourself a world of good.
The other answer is, it's music. Some days you'll feel like playing on the mandolin, other days you'll feel more like the banjo. Some days you won't feel like either, and you'll take a walk instead, other days you won't be able to decide between them and your main frustration will be that you can't play both at once.
The last answer is, the fingerings are the same but there are subtle differences between the two. As I suggested in Jimmy's thread, below, you want to be sure to train your right hand especially to play the banjo when you've got the banjo in your hand, and the mandolin when you're holding the mandolin. If you pick the banjo like it's a mandolin, it'll sound terrible. It's not very difficult, but it requires a certain amount of attention.
I can't comment about these instruments, but whistle is helpful
for flute. You can take a holiday from tone production and
intonation and concentrate on the fingers.
But what about _dis_similar instruments? I'm finding concertina
shakes up my thinking about tunes that I play on fiddle and flute.
Concertina has a definite 'black and white' sound with really
clear articulation. I find after struggling through a tune on the
concertina I try to pull out a different kind of fiddle sound. There
will be notes in a tune that pop out on the concertina version
and I try to get them popping out the same the way on fiddle.
I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with Hup, lol. I find that some tunes sound better (at least to my ear) on dis-similar instruments. Some tunes I find easier/more suitable on mandolin, others fit better on octave mandolin, and for many, nothing but whistle will do (these being the only instruments I play). But I do find that learning tunes on dis-similar instruments really helps with getting an overall "feel" for a tune.
P.S. Sorry, I just re-read your OP, and to answer your questions in your last paragraph.... "I’m wondering about more general things like speed, phrasing, timing, definition, dexterity, relaxation, etc"
I would have to say that, no matter the instrument, all of those questions are answered with one word....practice. Okay, and one more word...listen. Listen to really good players, if not at a session, then recorded.
If you play more than one instrument for long enough, eventually a kind of switch develops in your brain. I suppose it is similar to playing a tune in another key. It may take a few seconds; but once your brain gets into the right mode, you shouldn't have any problem. If you find something difficult on one instrument and not the other, practise a bit more with the difficult bit.
One of the advantages of playing two instruments (banjo and mandolin don't count) is that you get to a stage where you can go beyond have a switch in your brain to get you into the right mode. You start to hear and remember the tunes for what they are, just sound, rather than the mechanical movement you use to make the sound.
Well not the only response, but the first that came to mind.
There are crap concertinas but conceptually the concertina is
just fine if somebody decent is behind the wheel like
Mary Mac or Edel Fox.
I love Edel Fox's playing, can listen to her all day. Never ceases to amaze me what she can do with just black and white. It takes a peculiar skill to be so creative with such a limited pallet. It's such a shame that we can only imagine what her music would be like if she had colour available.
I play alot of instruments and music is music. There are some things that only apply to whistles, some things that only apply to fiddles, some things only apply to instruments with bellows, but practicing one actually makes the others better somehow.
don't ask me how.
but if I can play a tune in a couple different keys on 3 different instruments, its going to be safe to say I got a foggy notion how the tune goes
in your case, the one falls right into the other since they are both plucked string instruments tuned to the same notes
the difference is only the spacing and the doubled strings
so play them both and don't worry if you let one go for a few days, the other is similar enough you won't lose out
I have no problem switching from mandolin to tenor banjo, but it takes me awhile to get my brain around something in a different tuning-like open tuned guitar, or a mandola. There are some reels that are more fun to play on the banjo because I can move faster with the single strings; the mandolin can trip you up sometimes on reels. I use my pinky a lot on the banjo, so I just kind of slot in to the different fingerings on each instrument. Have fun!
I can't speak to the general, but I have a friend, a beginner on fiddle who also plays several other instruments, who was overseas for several months and couldn't bring his fiddle along. He took his mandolin, and when he came back, his fiddling was noticeably stronger than it had been before he left. He commented that on fiddle, he's still grappling with the mechanics of the instrument - intonation in particular - and that his time with only the mandolin, with which he is more comfortable, freed him to think about the *music* rather than the instrument.
"There are some things that only apply to whistles, some things that only apply to fiddles, some things only apply to instruments with bellows, but practicing one actually makes the others better somehow."
That's the key, I think - or part of it, anyway. Certain instruments better facilitate certain sequences of notes, ornaments, etc. So, you'll come up with different variations on a tune according to which instrument you're playing. But once you have memorised those instrument-specific variations, they become embedded in your musical vocabulary and find their way into the flow of your music, regardless of what instrument you are playing. So it is for me, anyway.
I never memorise variations. Kind of defeats the object really.
(except maybe in my short term memory that lasts about the length of three times through a two part reel)
And the key to playing diddley music variations is NOT making them up out of strings of notes that are peculiarly easy on what ever instrument you are playing. And that's why playing different instruments helps. It opens your ears to strings of notes that you didn't explore on one particular instrument, because you were too lazy.
Cross-training on different instruments
Cross-training on different instruments
I play mandolin and tenor banjo – both tuned GDAE, though an octave apart. When I learn a tune on one instrument, I can play it on the other. When I’m just playing or practicing by myself or in a small group I prefer the mandolin, but need to use the banjo for playing in our session – the mandolin is too quiet. So, this leads to a question…
Do you have any insights or observations regarding the extent to which practicing one instrument helps with better playing on a different, similar instrument? Can I achieve improvement in general by practicing on the mandolin, or do I need to just concentrate on the banjo?
I realize that there are many instrument-specific things that are non-transferable – I’m wondering about more general things like speed, phrasing, timing, definition, dexterity, relaxation, etc.
Thanks for any advice and happy playing.
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by dfost
Re: Cross-training on different instruments
One answer: Practice is mostly mental. When you play through a tune, you're working it out in your mind much more than in your fingers, if you're doing it right. Playing a tune on any instrument should help you get it down better, leading to speed, timing, definition, and all the rest of it. As a matter of fact, if you "play" a tune in your head - without the instrument, just visualizing the fingerings and the picking and "listening" to the results in your mind's ear - you'll do yourself a world of good.
The other answer is, it's music. Some days you'll feel like playing on the mandolin, other days you'll feel more like the banjo. Some days you won't feel like either, and you'll take a walk instead, other days you won't be able to decide between them and your main frustration will be that you can't play both at once.
The last answer is, the fingerings are the same but there are subtle differences between the two. As I suggested in Jimmy's thread, below, you want to be sure to train your right hand especially to play the banjo when you've got the banjo in your hand, and the mandolin when you're holding the mandolin. If you pick the banjo like it's a mandolin, it'll sound terrible. It's not very difficult, but it requires a certain amount of attention.
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Cross-training on different instruments
I can't comment about these instruments, but whistle is helpful
for flute. You can take a holiday from tone production and
intonation and concentrate on the fingers.
But what about _dis_similar instruments? I'm finding concertina
shakes up my thinking about tunes that I play on fiddle and flute.
Concertina has a definite 'black and white' sound with really
clear articulation. I find after struggling through a tune on the
concertina I try to pull out a different kind of fiddle sound. There
will be notes in a tune that pop out on the concertina version
and I try to get them popping out the same the way on fiddle.
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by Hup
Re: Cross-training on different instruments
I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with Hup, lol. I find that some tunes sound better (at least to my ear) on dis-similar instruments. Some tunes I find easier/more suitable on mandolin, others fit better on octave mandolin, and for many, nothing but whistle will do (these being the only instruments I play). But I do find that learning tunes on dis-similar instruments really helps with getting an overall "feel" for a tune.
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by ketida
Re: Cross-training on different instruments
P.S. Sorry, I just re-read your OP, and to answer your questions in your last paragraph.... "I’m wondering about more general things like speed, phrasing, timing, definition, dexterity, relaxation, etc"
I would have to say that, no matter the instrument, all of those questions are answered with one word....practice. Okay, and one more word...listen. Listen to really good players, if not at a session, then recorded.
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by ketida
Re: Cross-training on different instruments
Two phrases so far in this thread made me laugh. Not a ha ha that's funny laugh, more a desperation kind of exhalation laugh:
"but need to use the banjo for playing in our session".
Need? huh huh huh
"Concertina has a definite 'black and white' sound" Like duh. That's what makes it such a crap intsrument.
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by llig leahcim
Re: Cross-training on different instruments
If you play more than one instrument for long enough, eventually a kind of switch develops in your brain. I suppose it is similar to playing a tune in another key. It may take a few seconds; but once your brain gets into the right mode, you shouldn't have any problem. If you find something difficult on one instrument and not the other, practise a bit more with the difficult bit.
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by gam
Re: Cross-training on different instruments
One of the advantages of playing two instruments (banjo and mandolin don't count) is that you get to a stage where you can go beyond have a switch in your brain to get you into the right mode. You start to hear and remember the tunes for what they are, just sound, rather than the mechanical movement you use to make the sound.
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by llig leahcim
Re: Cross-training on different instruments
Well the obvious response Llig is - there are no crap instruments,
only crap players.
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by Hup
Re: Cross-training on different instruments
Well not the only response, but the first that came to mind.
There are crap concertinas but conceptually the concertina is
just fine if somebody decent is behind the wheel like
Mary Mac or Edel Fox.
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by Hup
Re: Cross-training on different instruments
I love Edel Fox's playing, can listen to her all day. Never ceases to amaze me what she can do with just black and white. It takes a peculiar skill to be so creative with such a limited pallet. It's such a shame that we can only imagine what her music would be like if she had colour available.
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by llig leahcim
Re: Cross-training on different instruments
I suppose you'd be complaining that Rolf Harris was crap if he came into your session with his stylophone and wobble board eh?
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by llig leahcim
Re: Cross-training on different instruments
dfost:
For a balanced program, you have to mix aerobic training with resistance training.
Even days, try flute (aerobic).
Odd days, play the spoons and see if you meet with any resistance.
Good Luck,
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by Piece
Re: Cross-training on different instruments
For a second a read Rook's post as saying "acerbic training" and thought, "Isn't that what reading this message board is for?"
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Cross-training on different instruments
I play alot of instruments and music is music. There are some things that only apply to whistles, some things that only apply to fiddles, some things only apply to instruments with bellows, but practicing one actually makes the others better somehow.
don't ask me how.
but if I can play a tune in a couple different keys on 3 different instruments, its going to be safe to say I got a foggy notion how the tune goes
in your case, the one falls right into the other since they are both plucked string instruments tuned to the same notes
the difference is only the spacing and the doubled strings
so play them both and don't worry if you let one go for a few days, the other is similar enough you won't lose out
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by Nate Ryan
Re: Cross-training on different instruments
I was amazed the first time I saw Seamus Egan play the flute right handed and the whistle left handed. I tried it - it's a real brain twister.
Flute:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yu26Y0DXyT8
Whistle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OiNEPGdM9o
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by Toppish
Re: Cross-training on different instruments
I have no problem switching from mandolin to tenor banjo, but it takes me awhile to get my brain around something in a different tuning-like open tuned guitar, or a mandola. There are some reels that are more fun to play on the banjo because I can move faster with the single strings; the mandolin can trip you up sometimes on reels. I use my pinky a lot on the banjo, so I just kind of slot in to the different fingerings on each instrument. Have fun!
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by primrose lass
Re: Cross-training on different instruments
I can't speak to the general, but I have a friend, a beginner on fiddle who also plays several other instruments, who was overseas for several months and couldn't bring his fiddle along. He took his mandolin, and when he came back, his fiddling was noticeably stronger than it had been before he left. He commented that on fiddle, he's still grappling with the mechanics of the instrument - intonation in particular - and that his time with only the mandolin, with which he is more comfortable, freed him to think about the *music* rather than the instrument.
# Posted on March 16th 2010 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Cross-training on different instruments
"There are some things that only apply to whistles, some things that only apply to fiddles, some things only apply to instruments with bellows, but practicing one actually makes the others better somehow."
That's the key, I think - or part of it, anyway. Certain instruments better facilitate certain sequences of notes, ornaments, etc. So, you'll come up with different variations on a tune according to which instrument you're playing. But once you have memorised those instrument-specific variations, they become embedded in your musical vocabulary and find their way into the flow of your music, regardless of what instrument you are playing. So it is for me, anyway.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Cross-training on different instruments
I never memorise variations. Kind of defeats the object really.
(except maybe in my short term memory that lasts about the length of three times through a two part reel)
And the key to playing diddley music variations is NOT making them up out of strings of notes that are peculiarly easy on what ever instrument you are playing. And that's why playing different instruments helps. It opens your ears to strings of notes that you didn't explore on one particular instrument, because you were too lazy.
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by llig leahcim
Re: Cross-training on different instruments
Spear:
"Acerbic"
Isn't that that funny antelope, the one with the horns backwards?
# Posted on March 17th 2010 by Piece