I sometimes hear folks refer to their ancestral heritage with pride. This is not exclusive to Irish heritage. This can be Irish, German, African, Mexican, whatever, as in "Proud to be [insert heritage]." I find this to be particularly prevalent in the USA, where cultural identity is something that some people cling to in the great Melting Pot. And, of course, accompanying this pride is the appropriate accoutraments: music, dance, art, literature, etc. I am a typical American mutt, part Irish, part German, with some Scottish, English, and Welsh mixed in there from what I've heard tell. My closest connection comes less from my ancestry than from my marriage. So be it. I just love Irish music and culture and I'm happy keeping it right there.
What I find interesting and also a bit bewildering is the notion of pride in regard to nationality/ethnicity/etc. How exactly does one feel pride at being Irish, or anything else for that matter. Nationality, ethnicity, and culture is something one is born into, not something anyone has any control over. My notion of pride is something someone feels in having accomplished something or cultivated through effort, not from being born by chance in a particular time and place. I've always thought that was an odd way of looking at one's identity.
Personally, I look at cultural identity as something that someone feels happy or gratefu for, but proud? I don't get it. So, since I love Irish music and dance and culture, were I born into it and had that close cultural connection that my wife's family has, I would be inclined to say I am "happy to be Irish," rather than proud. It just seems more fitting.
I'm feeling a bit philosophical today, and thought it was a topic that didn't fall too far from the mustard tree. I would be curious what others think of what I find to be the dubious topic of ethnic/cultural pride.
There was a tv programme recently where they traced, by DNA, various persons ancestry back. Curiously, the most apparently anglophile, and also unfortunately racist individuals, were found to have the most diverse backgrounds.
Better to take pride in your accomplishments.
I'm Channel Island ( Norman-French ) French, Scots, and Irish, in no particular order. I was asked to define my ethnicity today, for a survey - White ( British ) seems altogether inadequate. Anyway, my granny was Barbadian by birth, so I'm West Indian too.
I've mostly found people who declare themselves "proud to be ...." have about as much of that ethnic bloodline as I do. e.g. absolutely feckall. Anyone with a big shiny shamrock glued to their guitar, or who sings one line of a national anthem ad nauseam (cause they don't know the rest of it) or shouts a random, garbled phrase of Gaelic for no reason...I used to ignore them, but now I find they really give me the sh*ts.
The one notable exception was being at a comedy gig in a theatre on the Isle of Man. At the end they played the Manx national anthem, and everyone stood and sang the whole thing, many with tears in their eyes. Very moving and genuine, and above all unexpected.
As a younger man I used to actually be proud to be Irish - that I belonged to a nation of people who struggled against tyranny and oppression, who stuck together in the face of adversity : I stupidly believed we were an honorable and principled race of people who always stood up against injustice etc. etc. In the end, there's no difference between us and any other Western society; we're a greedy, corrupt, selfish, look-after- number -one, what-do-I-get-out-of-it people. I'm not sure what it means to be Irish anymore!
Well, sligeach, I certainly wasn't expecting that. My in-laws are beautiful people, and are very involved with local charities and are big on community involvement where they live the States. Is that a cultural trait. I have no idea, but they're beautiful people because of what they do.
This was not meant to be an indictment of even the slightest kind, just a perspective on identity I felt like sharing. If someone gives a perspective on pride that differs from my own but makes sense, it only makes me wiser. There is a very horrid, corny, and nonsensical song called "Proud to be an American" that always makes me laugh. I'm not saying that one can't be proud of being American. While the USA may have it's guilt to bear in the world, there are plenty of people who have come to America, wanted to become American, and did what it took to do so. They are in a position to say "proud to be an American," at least more so than the provincial Amercian who was born here, never left here, and has no idea what the hell they're talking about. I have a cousin by marriage in Ireland who has been to the States several times, doesn't like the States, and is a very patriotic Irishman. Good for him. He's a very self-aware man and is happy with who and where he is. Good for him, the lucky bastard.
All I'm saying is, the man or woman who looks at who they are, likes who they are, and happens to enjoy the culture into which they were born is a very fortunate person. The man or woman who looks at their ethnic or cultural heritage as a badge of who they are and what they have accomplished in life strikes me as a person of low self-esteem.
I am happy with who I am Jimmy!
I don't see how being involved in charity work could be a cultural trait ( that's the individual 's choice) - you lost me there!
And your cousin is by no means on his own when it comes to disliking the States! The rest of the world's with him on that one.
Maybe you are referring to extremists on the far right when you're talkin' about national pride? I have never and will never count myself amongst that number!
My American ancestors bravely swam against the migratory tide, emigrating to Eurabia during the 1970s U.S. Fresca famine.
I often think of those noble, ape-like ancestors and wonder how they were able to pry their eyes away from the dazzling disco balls of America. Gosh, those spinning danglers must have been pretty!
Today, to honor my cultural heritage, I sing the songs of my ancestors: Ricky Don't Lose That Number, Piano Man, Muskrat Love. The Pina Colada Song. ¡Ay carumba!
1) "Pride" doesn't necessarily have to imply or infer a sense of superiority of one group over another. It isn't always ethnocentric. Often times, it can just represent a sense of group accomplishment - for example, achieving civil rights, overcoming tremendous adversity or poverty, finding equal footing amongst other ethnic groups within the greater society. Much of American "ethnic" pride is based upon these factors.
2) I don't expect Europeans or even Australians to ever understand the hyphenated identities with which many Americans choose to label themselves. It is a quirk of our immigrant heritage brought on by the economic competition within the various ethnic groups.
3) Almost as funny as the giddy guy with the shamrock on his guitar who can only sing one verse of the Irish National Anthem, is the person who becomes so upset over that guy's personal identification that they feel the need to poop. Who cares by what means people identify themselves? As long as silly guy's tunes don't interfere with your session, live and let live.
4) I'm an American of Irish immigrants. I understand what that means warts and all. Good and bad. Both plastic Shamrocks and miserable low-wage jobs. Being prejudiced against and being the bigots themselves. Their experiences and sacrifices have helped me understand how I came to be. There is value in that. Perspective.
Look, my Moldovan grandmama had lovely, alabaster feet.
Though I am as manly a man as you will ever encounter—okay?—I have inherited those lovely, alabaster feet. (Think Michelangelo's David's feet—only not as big and clunky and cold.)
Some might think this would mean that I'd take more pride in my Moldovan feet than in, say, my lush chestnut Cornish mane. But I don't.
You see, I love all of me. You can learn from this, people. Especially to love.
No it's a fact, Americans (if were talking about the United States that is) consist of roughly 300 million people while the population of the whole world is only roughly 6 billion people. You see, it makes no sense.......
I see you have trouble reading as well.
Dear child, I said 300 MILLION, as you can look up and see. In case you don't know your numbers, one thousand million is equal to one billion. Isn't that neat Kiddo?
Jimmy you say 'I look at cultural identity as something that someone feels happy or gratefu for.' What culture are you grateful for?'. Is there a 'culture' you (or anyone else here)identify with? And Why? American? Irish? English? Austrailian. Do ya feel pride in your government. T.V. Pop music, country music, trash magazines. These things are our culture. From what I've seen it's all mostly garbage and that's why you have pockets of people rejecting modern culture and playing old tunes in what I would call (almost) a sub culture.
I don't care in the least about ethnic pride one way or the other. I saw a black guy the other day wearing a T shirt that said "F*** me I'm Irish". I thought it was brilliant.
I think I can understand something of the Plastic Paddy thing because I'm (only!) a quarter Jewish, and when I started reading up the related stuff years ago I felt the pull to become a Plastic Hebe really pretty strongly. Not to seriously opt into Judaism, of course - too much like hard work and they're sensibly pretty short on wannabes who are not thoroughly committed to conversion. But it could be a rat-run into all kinds of fantasy and grandiosity, including underdog-ism and the notion that just by *being* something, one had permission to opt out of the ordinary rules and conditions of life in accordance with some romanticised stereotype.
It did induce me to get up and go to Israel for a week (something I'd always meant to do). This was in early 2000 when things were quiet. I saw Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Galilee. It all seemed very familiar - not because of ancestors walking there or anything, but because if you live in some mediaeval God place like Durham, Jerusalem or Bethlehem are simply variations on it. Galilee was very beautiful and, again, seemed very like an impression I might have got of it early in life at sunday school. Of course the whole place is peppered with churches of many kinds.
An overall impression I had of Israel was that it was a microcosm - a 'little world' in which someone coming from practically any corner of the globe might find something, some nook, that might help him, or her, feel deeply at home. It might be snow on Mount Hermon, a jungle by the Dead Sea - and so on. My sentiments are slanted in favour of Israel, but seeing the Bethlehem Palestinians I thought, "These people deserve their dignity, and a better deal than they're getting."
Problem with the Palestinians, as the Palestinians I worked with informed me, is that they keep blowing things up! Even when they are allowed to come across the border to work in Israel where they have better opportunities, they blow up the border guards!
The problem with esprit de corps (as we called it in the military) is that it too often mutates into arrogance. And while pride in your abilities and your people is a positive thing, false pride and thinking you are above other people is definitely a negative. Think of Custer, who was so arrogant that he divided forces that were already too small in the face of his opponents.
I am proud of my ancestors, but that does not mean that other people cannot be proud of their own ancestors, even though they are different than mine.
But then again, just when I think diversity is a good thing, along comes something like this, which showed up on my Facebook page:
"First Listen: The Chieftains Featuring Ry Cooder
www.npr.org
Ry Cooder's latest recording project is a cultural mashup of Mexican and Irish music called San Patricio. The album is performed by the Irish music icons in The Chieftains, along with Cooder himself and a handful of celebrated Mexican musicians."
YAY Israeli-Palestinian politics -- don't we all love it!
I definitely do see the worth in being "proud" of your nationality, or ethnicity, or whatever. But I think a certain definition needs to be given given for "pride".
I am English. (I'm also Jewish and half Irish, but for the purposes of this example, let's stick with English.) And I have pride in being English. But does this mean I indiscriminately love and defend everything the English have ever done? Of course not. But it means I have an emotional connection to England and the English. If an Englishman were to find a cure for cancer, I would be phenomenally proud. Not just happy -- I'd be happy if he was any nationality -- but proud, as well. Likewise, if an Englishman were to do something awful, I'd be not only angry or unhappy, but ashamed.
I root for England in sporting events. Why, because I think the English team/athlete is actually more deserving of victory than anyone else? No! Just because I'm English!
I'm proud to be an American-Australian with Jewish/German roots.
I'm lucky to have been born at all and glad to be alive still. I'm proud to be obsessed with Irish Trad music. And I'm part Neanderthal
like everybody else!
I'm 31, and until recently, I didn't even know where my ancestors came from. Me being a 5 th generation and a mixture of four different things, it's irrelevant anyway. My family just never got into it. Growing up, I just knew I was "white" and it just wasn't cool to say that you were proud to be white.
That sounds really filthy - what does it mean?!...
Did you know that 'Gringo' comes from the first words of the song Green Grow The Laurels, which US soldiers sang a lot when they were fighting the Spanish / Mexicans? Or so I've been told.
And it doesn't effect your playing of diddley at all!
I’m a Londoner (London in Europe that is). I have no ancestral, national or any other such ‘pride’.
I don’t feel British, English or anything and I can’t imagine wasting time and brain power on feeling pride for such a thing! How shallow!
Pride becomes before a fall!
Every nation (define as you wish) or even family has the good and the bad. One assumes ‘pride’ would only be appropriate for the positive/ good elements and not cover the negatives, so only loving the positive stereotype of your country, culture, history, ancestors or wotteffah is an idiotic, ignorant, uninformed concept. I’m proud to be me but I can’t possibly talk for any other individual (even if they are in my family/ house/ street/ block/ town/ county or state or department/ nation/ politically derived area or country/ continent/ planet/ star system/ galaxy/ universe) It’s individuals that matter. Each man (or woman) is different regardless of their culture, nationality, ancestry. Nationalism? Patriotism? Yuck! No thank you! It’s what we go to war over. And we don’t want that, do we?!
As Robert Burns said two & a half centuries ago: ‘A man’s a man for a’ that”.
P.S. can all you American (and some Australians) stop giving us the list of cultures/ nations that their forebears come from. We are not interested! Tell us about your playing of diddley diddley instead (which is not effected by any of the above, by the way!
" "....live together as brothers..." something the English wouldn't know too much about!"
Wham! 65 million people all tarred with the same brush in an instant. I could regale you with my ancestry as I've been doing my family history recently but what's the point with comments like that?
To return to your question JimmyB, "What I find interesting and also a bit bewildering is the notion of pride in regard to nationality/ethnicity/etc. How exactly does one feel pride at being Irish, or anything else for that matter"?
My take on that would be that in Ireland, people take a pride (maybe a false pride) in their Irishness in the sense of connection back over the generations, that sense of continuity. Of living in a country and landscape where their forebears once toiled etc. That's about it.
When you look at it coldly, it doesn't mean much as the way of life has transformed radically but people like to cling to sentiment - it's one of lifes little comforts and defences.
I am an American, as much as anything else. My grandfather came from Cork. My roots are Irish, Dutch, and some German. I am pleased with the way that turned out. I am also the only one of my generation who really embraced the music in a serious way.
Not proud, just grateful if any of my ancestors gave me a propensity for this lovely hokey trad stuff.
No green beer, no shamrocks, but you can if you want -
Me, I play this stuff all year round.
I am Italian, English, and Irish; Jewish, Catholic and Protestant, and embrace them all fully and joyously and with pride. Not the arrogant pride that causes wars, but the kind of pride that causes a mother's eyes to gleam.
If we can't make peace with our entire selves, there will never be peace in the world. Period.
I don't regret starting this thread. It turned out even slightly more civilized than I expected, though there was a little mudslinging. This was not a sociological experiment or anything, just something I was discussing with a friend and that was what I came up with on the subject. I was feeling philosophical and wanted to share it.
Somebody asked if I have American pride. No. USA has alot to be ashamed of, but I'm not ashamed of it. I served in the US military for six years, so if one disapproves of the USA and it's policies, and there certainly has been plenty to disapprove of, one may tell me that by such association my hands are dirty. I have some loyalty to the USA, because I do recognize her merits as well, and I am a citizen so I feel there should be some loyalty, but pride? No.
I thought of another perspective here as well. I was sort of painting the idea of pride into a corner to some extent. There is a feeling of pride one can feel about someone else. When my little boy does something that amazes me, I do well up with love and pride, or at least something that feels like pride, but it's a different kind of pride. I feel pride for him and what he did, and perhaps to some extent a sense of pride that he came from me. If I feel a connection to a person or a group of people, I can feel a sense of pride at something that they have accomplished. It's the very similar rush that I feel when I've accomplished something I worked very hard at. So, I understand the emotional motivations that causes one to feel pride over something he or she has not accomplished. Perhaps that's what I should understand. I was not raised with any strong cultural or ethnic connection, with the exception of having a racist father who resented all non-white people, until his edges smoothed in his old age and he ended up a fairly decent person. I, in my youthful rebellion, adopted attitudes quite different from his in an effort to aggravate him, largely unsuccessfully, because underneath the attitudes and character flaws was just a man who loved his son no matter what.
Thank you hussar and yhaalhouse for your posts, they were particularly succinct and well said, a skill I've had difficulty in cultivating, as you can see.
Jung differed from Freud in that he was convinced that the prime motive for the psyche was identity and greater meaning in life, not sex.
In that light, people being proud of or identifying with their ethnic ancestry are simply doing what Jung would consider a natural function of psychology.
Freud would say something about Oedipus and leprechauns, I'm sure. [shrug]
Jimmy B-- I think what some non-American folks just don't get, is that our pride in heritage thing isn't the same as their's is. They are inextricably linked to their land, and their bloodlines (sorry to sound like the AKC! lol) aren't as "muddy". Americans don't think of having an "American" culture, because we are a melting pot of many cultures. I can go to my neighbor's house and feel like I'm on another continent. We identify with an immigration culture. Our country isn't very old. Many folks that were born here are still first or second generation and can have a very close connection to where their folks or grandfolks immigrated from. Even if your family line has been here for a while, you still tend to think of your "culture" as that of your many, and often varied, ancestors. There really isn't too much of the "American" pride for "American" culture, because they just don't fit the definition of how other folks in other countries would define those terms. America is much too diverse for that. And that is perhaps where "American pride" might reside; the fact that we are a diverse country and we can't be boxed in too much.... and that makes us dangerous and fickle in many others' eyes.
"...And that is perhaps where "American pride" might reside; the fact that we are a diverse country and we can't be boxed in too much...."
Well said, Fiddlechick7.
Also, I realized shortly after posting my lineage that I had forgotten to include American...as an example of your point of America being a young culture and our identifying with our heritage culture(s).
Hello Jimmy, imho this is a hot button on the board. A few (similar) past discussions have been excommunicated out of our sight. Fair play though. ;)
Regardless of the baggage brought, before you showed up on the doorstep, I will try my best response to your question.
There is a pride which makes way for an effort to be best we can be. For example, when you hear a player play a tune in a way you want to play it yourself you take the time to learn it proper. And the pride comes, not just when you are happy with your playing, but when the player you admire looks over & gives you a smile. There is another type of pride which is empty yet excessive, it makes a person arrogant, out of touch really. In this pride one may wear the hat, but it is only for show without anything deeper.
I'm reading a book at the moment which I consider relevant ~ "Reverence: Renewing a Forgotten Virtue" By Paul Woodruff. In it he describes hubris, which would be the height of pride, dangerously so. But the gist of the book regards reverence, not the way we use it in the modern world, but as an almost lost virtue. Hope you like the excerpt.
"Reverence begins in a deep understanding of human limitations; from this grows the capacity to be in awe of whatever we believe lies outside our control - God, truth, justice, nature, even death. The capacity for awe, as it grows, brings with it the capacity for respecting human beings, flaws and all. . . reverence is the virtue that keeps leaders from trying to take tight control over other people's lives. Simply put, reverence is the virtue that keeps human beings from trying to act like gods."
Gretchen Wilson? Simple ~ Brian Wilson stated too much pride in putting "California Girls" above all others. Gretchen simply brought things back to earth. Whether you like her music or not isn't the point. ;)
I figured it might be a hot button. I hope nobody has taken any offense over my thread. I don't doubt there may be members who view me as a silly American because of it and that's fine. Life goes on. I doubt very seriously this is a topic I will ever bring up again, it was just a moment in time I felt like sharing with my fellow mustard-boarders. I sincerely hope there was no great offense taken.
1. A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.
2. Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association: parental pride.
3. Arrogant or disdainful conduct or treatment; haughtiness.
4. a) A cause or source of pleasure or satisfaction; the best of a group or class: These soldiers were their country's pride.
b) The most successful or thriving condition; prime: the pride of youth.
5. An excessively high opinion of oneself; conceit.
6. Mettle or spirit in horses.
7. A company of lions. See synonyms at flock1.
8. A flamboyant or impressive group: a pride of acrobats.
tr.v., prid·ed, prid·ing, prides.
To indulge (oneself) in a feeling of pleasure or satisfaction: I pride myself on this beautiful garden.
Ancestral Pride. If one takes Pride in the credits of one's predecessors, does one also have to take responsiblity for thier foibles....or worse.
Genetically, we all cross paths somewhere. So When the Olympic yahooism takes hold, I usually switch to the DIY home repair shows on public TV....or as a last resort, tolerate Herslef watching that innane "Home and Garden TV" Claptrap- which is always helped by copius amounts of alcohol
Mr. Leahcim. We haven't officially met, and I understand you are a person with whom to reckon and I do approach you with fear and trembling, but I disagree with you.
I think pride, at its very very best is an inner swelling and glow in knowing that something has gone well - whether it's your endeavor or someone else's.
And I think that ancestral pride at its very very best is the striving to do one's very best in order to honor those who came before you.
If you leave out a word that is not needed "pride" is less than "a self congratulatory glow" because of its negative connotations. I think I'm agreeing with sara505sings.
It seems to me that this thread has become confused with the various meanings of the word "pride".
The "pride" llig leahcim and yhaalhouse are talking about is basically the idea that "I'm awesome, and my country/culture/ancestry/ethnicity/whatever is awesome, just because we are". That, of course, is wrong, and can lead to all sorts of terrible things. But I think it's also a pretty simplistic understanding of "pride". The kind of pride I feel -- though maybe it's not pride, maybe there's another name for it -- is more a kind of association with the country/culture/ancestry/whatever that I'm from, whether it's for good or bad. So, if an English person does something great, then I'd be pleased not just that he or she did something great, but that it was an English person that did it. And if they did something terrible, I'd be ashamed, in the same kind of way. The same would go if I was Swiss, Ukrainian, Korean, whatever (I did cover this about thirty posts ago, just no-one appears to have picked up on it...)
However, the difference between "whether it's your endeavor or someone else's", is merely the difference between self congratulation and wanting to belong.
I noticed most Americans mentioned that they are part Irish. I sometimes wonder if there is anyone who is more than a third generation American that is not part Irish. I recently met an older guy that has spent his entire life on an Indian Reservation, and a fairly isolated area at that, half of the people in his county don't even speak english. He's part Irish too.
It's amazing how the people from such a small Island have dominated the gene pool of such a large continent so far away. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it's impressive.
Not all talk of genetic provenance is about pride. Often, it’s merely about ancestral interest, curiosity, maybe locating oneself in history. I don’t accept any blame for my ancestors’ having probably owned slaves, so how can I take personal pride in anything admirable they might have done? However, I am curious about who they were and where they came from.
Look back far enough, a long way back, Bob, and see if the slavers and the enslaved (along with everyone else on earth) haven't got African ancestry. Pretty neat!
Twice blessed. I vote to limit ancestral pride to those connections that are so remote in time that only a cheek swab can establish any link to a general region of the planet; like, say, some giant portion of the planet at the time of last Ice Age, at best.
Oh I don't know Llig - It seems you're quite proud to be a cynic. Far more so in fact than I am to have Irish ancestors. My guess is you're feeling quite a warm glow of self-congratulation e-slapping off our rose-tinted glasses.
Slap away grumpy old man. I am impervious to insult. I play the banjo.
There are so many complicated things in this field that I'm almost glad my previous attempt at joining in got lost in the ether.
Consider; many Americans ( that is to say US citizens ) take pride in their ancestral heritage, and proudly proclaim themselves whatever-Americans. Once they cross the border, whichever way, everybody else in the world just looks on them as Americans, as the culture they have now in common vastly over powers anything still lingering from their old country.
Pride in ones' ancestry is a dangerous thing; did you ever hear about the fly that hatched from a maggot that fed on the body of a lion ?
Personally I know that I'm Norman-French, French, Scots, and Irish, in no particular order, but I'm also West Indian as Granny was born in Barbados. Hmmmmmmm. White Anglo-Saxon Protestant I'm not.
Far better to be proud of ones' accomplishments.
Too broad a paintbrush Guernsey Pete. I am aware of my ancestral heritage, but only proud of my direct ancestors who survived untold hardships to make it to the states. They happen to have been Irish. That's all. I know plenty of Americans who are utterly indifferent to what happened before they were born - and don't care a wit where their people came from.
It is understood that once we cross the border, we are all lumped in as Yanks.
I suppose the underlying question has to do with pride vs. humility. If pride is used in a context where it refers to dignity &/or self-respect I think it may be considered humble. Of course, in a different context pride, may be used as a synonym of arrogant. Depends.
Count back far enough, and your ancestors happen to be my ancestors. We can glow in a shared pride in their accomplishments. Think about it -- the Clovis point was new, and just beginning to improve the human world; someone had hit on the brilliant idea to take the obsidian bits off war clubs, and replace them with shark's teeth. Mankind was off, and running.
Pride Sucks! Bring back the real discussions. ***!!!
What, a hippie song doesn't qualify as music? ;)
Right on Al, I'm with you! In all fairness I did try to hijack another thread with my session/tune related question. It sunk like a brick.
Sorry Random, not kvetching about your post, just the thread in general!
Speaking of pride, but taking it in the direction of music, I was very proud of my efforts to play a tune yesterday that has lots of opportunities for rolls, and was rolling like a son of a gun. Usually, I am not the best at rolls.
Unfortunately, as soon as I conciously realized that I was succeeding, I stopped being able to play those rolls well the next time around.
The pride goeth before the fall, I suppose.
No worries, as soon as I get over jacking the lame threads I'll come up with my own {lame thread} ~ at least I'll tie it in with playing tunes. Keep on those articulations Al. ;)
Don't you love how music brings us all together?Ha!
On the idea of not taking pride in the accomplishments of one's ancestors, because you then must share in their mistakes, I don't see it that way at all. To live and learn and grow as a person you should see good and bad clearly. Then by looking at what your ancestors did, you can say "I'm proud of that because it was a good thing" or I'm ashamed of that because it was wrong", although to do this you must admit that your ancestors were wrong in some way thus making you in turn feel wrong, well this is just a growth inhibiting trick. You should be proud of the good things your ancestors did, and try to continue on in that way, and you should be ashamed of the bad things your ancestors did and remember not to do that anymore. You see, if you don't congratulate yourself, then you must not reprove yourself as well, how will you know which direction to take?! You will be lukewarm and riding the thin rail of a fence, moving neither ahead nor back. You have to take the bad with the good in this life, that's just the way it is, but don't be a coward and try to have none of the good because your afraid of the bad, and afraid of learning. By "learning" something you admit that you didn't know it in the first place. So to tie music back into this, that is one reason I like playing Trad music, it reminds people of lessons learned long ago, and we shouldn't forget that. These tunes and songs are a remnant of those times, they are the closest you can get to "feeling" what was going on...... and I like it cause it sounds really really cool.
Fiddlechick
"They are inextricably linked to their land, and their bloodlines (sorry to sound like the AKC! lol) aren't as "muddy". Americans don't think of having an "American" culture, because we are a melting pot of many cultures"
I disagree. People in England Scotland Ireland and Wales are just as mixed culturally as most in the US. These are islands on the edge of Europe where fleeing ethnic groups had to stop and interbreed before they fell into the sea and drowned!
I'll buy that. English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, It's all the same to me. I can barley tell the difference between these people.
I'm from the southern part of the USA but I spend a lot of time up north. The people up there tell me that I have an accent, but I'm sure we all sound the same to Europeans. They call us all "Yanks" regardless of where we are from.
I'm proud to have dark hair. And brown eyes. Dark haired people fight for justice, are tolerent towards light haired people and are better musicians. we only hang out in authentic Irish bars.I'm not a bigot I just am proud, in a good way, of my brown hair.
TOO BAD IT'S ALL ON MY BAAACCCCKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jusa Nutter Eejit, when you mention people who are utterly indifferent to what happened before they were born and don't care where their people came from, you are giving an accurate description of my sister-in-law.
As for not caring where your people came from, sometimes it may be difficult to accurately determine where your ancestors came from because record keeping in the past wasn't as accurate as it is now. Also, records sometimes got lost or disappeared because they were burned or eaten by termites.
This is why I tell people I am a Chicagoan because that is where I was born and raised although both of my parents weren't born and raised in Chicago or even in Illinois.
So far as I can tell, most of my ancestors seem to have come here from northern and western Europe but I don't think I can be completely sure of that. I know I am not going to worry about it or lose any sleep over it.
This thread is very uncomfortable. I know that out there there are folk who do think that one group is 'better' more 'noble' have 'suffered' more than others, even if they are very comfortably off themselves. As individuals of that group (football team, county whatever) they feel they have a moral high over anyone (individual) who ostensibly comes from a group perceived historically to be an oppressor. Those who do that are buying in to the propaganda of politics and not listening to the individual voice of the person concerned.
The great joy that session playing has brought to the world via the largely Irish diaspora has been to show that music can be a sort of comunication which doesn't use words and doesn't become coloured by ethnicity or religion. In short, nobody will react differently to me in a session because of the behaviour or religion of my grandparents, as long as I play the tunes Ok and try to fit in with it.
We shouldn't make assumptions - we should always get to know the person or just listen to their music.
Your entire post is an assumption, eiluned. There wasn't a single post above that suggested anyone thought their ancestry was more noble or better or than anybody else.
That's true and I apologise if you were in any way offended - it was not intended. I said people out there - meaning it generally. I come across these attitudes all the time unfortunately, so it's less an assumption more bitter experience and as I said, people in sessions tend to communicate through music so hopefully it is less likely I'll see it here .
Up in the thread I gave some dictionary definitions for the word pride. However, I do get an impression that some, on the board or not ~ your guess is as good as mine, may use the term pride as something wholly undesirable. Or is that holy undesirable? http://www.deadlysins.com/sins/
While I have heard of the 7 Deadly Sins . . . this I did not know . . . The Seven Contrary Virtues: humility, kindness, abstinence, chastity . . .
The Contrary Virtues were derived from the Psychomachia ("Battle for the Soul"). Practicing these virtues is alledged to protect one against temptation toward the Seven Deadly Sins: humility against pride . . .
I used to think of myself as English when I was a boy born in Luton Town, then as a young teenager I discovered my Scottish roots (my dad a scot by birth.)We went to Wembley to watch England versus Scotland schoolboy international school trip (football/soccer) I was kitted out in tartan; it was my 13 year old identity. Later, after years of banging on about my Scottish heritage I discovered most of my great grandparents came from Donegal and my name from Red Hugh O’Donnell, a Chieftain from the Tyrone/Antrim area centuries back.
Now, I just feel like a bit of a mongrel really and not bothered about cultural connections. With my English accent though, every time I mention ITM, the question comes “Do you have Irish roots?”-which sounds like-are you authorised?
The pride of a past I knew little about has lessened and now what is happening is new again- the music is no longer Irish – it is just music. I know that I see/hear it differently from those around me who don’t share my interest in ITM and only my wife understands. But she’s really smart. My 2p worth
As for the comment about ‘yahooing at the Olympics’; you’ve missed the whole point of the games; an acknowledgement of human tribalism and an attempt to focus it in a positive way through sport rather than violence.
I was adopted a birth so I'm proud to be the bastard spawn of a a knocked up school girl. On St. Paddy's day I dye my hair green, tie a shamrock to my p#cker and put on my "kiss me I"m Irish " t-shirt. There are some advantages to being a bastard!
To add to what I said earlier, there is no way you can get in a time machine and find out what your ancestors may or may not have done.
After reading Eosaph's post, I think whatever roots I have are in the city where I was born and raised although both of my parents were born and raised somewhere else.
Supposedly some of my ancestors came here from Ireland but I don't know whether or not that is true. I guess that means I am just as "authorised" as Eosaph.
I do know that I enjoy playing music in my free time and I intend to continue playing music as long as I can.
I live in a certain Nordic land where it seems to me that people have decided to abandon a wonderful and sophisticated musical tradition for commercial, egocentric, watered-down dribble - because being perceived as modern is something that they take great pride in. Nothing distress me more than the idea that Ireland will follow suit.
If pride is being glad to be part of something wonderful, then I am proud of my Gaelic heritage. And if pride in ones cultural heritage means that there are people there who are willing to fight for the survival of it, them I'm all in favour of pride!
"to abandon a wonderful and sophisticated musical tradition for commercial, egocentric, watered-down dribble - because being perceived as modern is something that they take great pride in"
No worries Barra, Ireland already did that in the 40s and 50s. Us cheesy Americans had to buy millions of Clancy Brothers records to show them otherwise.
...but seriously, you ever notice how all the fiddlers and pipers recorded here, in America? Coleman, Patsy Touhey, Paddy Canny, etc. Yes, you're welcome. What do we get for it? For having dance halls in Boston with 1,000+ people dancing The Siege of Ennis on Saturday night in a huge ballroom while Ireland was laughing at its fiddlers and dancing the night away to Country & Western in the 50s?
Oh well, we did it out of love. Ah, the unrequited love of the Irish American. Ha ha.
So the Irish-American community saved trad for us poor native Irish! Are you really trying to say that trad wouldn't have survived until the resurgence in the late '50 and '60 without LPs home from the States and ballrooms in Boston? Complete and utter nonsense! Even Mick Moloney, who has thought long and hard about the role of America in trad doesn't go that far. You'd have a much, much stronger case if you'd hung your hat on the importance of the Irish in Britain.
Sure trad is a minor art form in Ireland, always has been, always will be. But lots of families kept the faith over generations going back into the C19th.
Yep, you pushed a button there all right!, Perhaps you weren't being serious.
I postulated this some years ago on the subject of patriotism, but it applies to Ancestral Pride as well:
"Patriotism is the mistaken notion that the accident of the geopolitical location of one's birth has higher meaning that membership in the human race and citizenship of Planet Earth."
Thanks for the book link SWFL. I'll add it to my list. Following Oliver Sacks "Musicophilia" & (are you ready?) Jane Austen's "Pride & Prejudice" The book looks good. I have been to Boston only one time (~ 1974 or so). Thouroughly enjoyed my time.
I have also read the book recommended by SWFL, and recommend it myself. I was surprised as I read it to find the woman who taught me ceildhe dance, Maureen Keohane, played such a large role in the Boston dance scene. Since then, I have found that her students, and students of those students, can be found all over the USA.
Although I wouldn't go as far as to say that the USA saved traditional music when it died back home in Ireland--I suspect that was a bit of hyperbole from our friend SWFL!
Just because my grandmother's surname was Malone before she married my grandfather doesn't necessarily mean that I am part Irish or of Irish descent, right? Yes, no, maybe? I have been told that Malone is an Irish name but I don't know how accurate that is.
A Word on Ancestral Pride
A Word on Ancestral Pride
I sometimes hear folks refer to their ancestral heritage with pride. This is not exclusive to Irish heritage. This can be Irish, German, African, Mexican, whatever, as in "Proud to be [insert heritage]." I find this to be particularly prevalent in the USA, where cultural identity is something that some people cling to in the great Melting Pot. And, of course, accompanying this pride is the appropriate accoutraments: music, dance, art, literature, etc. I am a typical American mutt, part Irish, part German, with some Scottish, English, and Welsh mixed in there from what I've heard tell. My closest connection comes less from my ancestry than from my marriage. So be it. I just love Irish music and culture and I'm happy keeping it right there.
What I find interesting and also a bit bewildering is the notion of pride in regard to nationality/ethnicity/etc. How exactly does one feel pride at being Irish, or anything else for that matter. Nationality, ethnicity, and culture is something one is born into, not something anyone has any control over. My notion of pride is something someone feels in having accomplished something or cultivated through effort, not from being born by chance in a particular time and place. I've always thought that was an odd way of looking at one's identity.
Personally, I look at cultural identity as something that someone feels happy or gratefu for, but proud? I don't get it. So, since I love Irish music and dance and culture, were I born into it and had that close cultural connection that my wife's family has, I would be inclined to say I am "happy to be Irish," rather than proud. It just seems more fitting.
I'm feeling a bit philosophical today, and thought it was a topic that didn't fall too far from the mustard tree. I would be curious what others think of what I find to be the dubious topic of ethnic/cultural pride.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Uh-oh. Brace yourself Jimmy. This has been a hot topic in years past....
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I'm proud to be an Earthling
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Alex Wilding
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Oh, I don't doubt it. I'm not challenging anyone, I'm just offering my take on pride and wondering what the take of others is. I can take some heat.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
There was a tv programme recently where they traced, by DNA, various persons ancestry back. Curiously, the most apparently anglophile, and also unfortunately racist individuals, were found to have the most diverse backgrounds.
Better to take pride in your accomplishments.
I'm Channel Island ( Norman-French ) French, Scots, and Irish, in no particular order. I was asked to define my ethnicity today, for a survey - White ( British ) seems altogether inadequate. Anyway, my granny was Barbadian by birth, so I'm West Indian too.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I've mostly found people who declare themselves "proud to be ...." have about as much of that ethnic bloodline as I do. e.g. absolutely feckall. Anyone with a big shiny shamrock glued to their guitar, or who sings one line of a national anthem ad nauseam (cause they don't know the rest of it) or shouts a random, garbled phrase of Gaelic for no reason...I used to ignore them, but now I find they really give me the sh*ts.
The one notable exception was being at a comedy gig in a theatre on the Isle of Man. At the end they played the Manx national anthem, and everyone stood and sang the whole thing, many with tears in their eyes. Very moving and genuine, and above all unexpected.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by bc_box_player
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
As a younger man I used to actually be proud to be Irish - that I belonged to a nation of people who struggled against tyranny and oppression, who stuck together in the face of adversity : I stupidly believed we were an honorable and principled race of people who always stood up against injustice etc. etc. In the end, there's no difference between us and any other Western society; we're a greedy, corrupt, selfish, look-after- number -one, what-do-I-get-out-of-it people. I'm not sure what it means to be Irish anymore!
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sligeach
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Ugh! I can't stand it when Americans try to connect with their "Ethnic Background", they make such a big deal out of it!
*silenlty removes kilt and lays down bagpipes*
The only reason I don't sing American folk songs is most of them are still under copyright protection to Bob Dylan and I would have to pay royalties.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Well, sligeach, I certainly wasn't expecting that. My in-laws are beautiful people, and are very involved with local charities and are big on community involvement where they live the States. Is that a cultural trait. I have no idea, but they're beautiful people because of what they do.
This was not meant to be an indictment of even the slightest kind, just a perspective on identity I felt like sharing. If someone gives a perspective on pride that differs from my own but makes sense, it only makes me wiser. There is a very horrid, corny, and nonsensical song called "Proud to be an American" that always makes me laugh. I'm not saying that one can't be proud of being American. While the USA may have it's guilt to bear in the world, there are plenty of people who have come to America, wanted to become American, and did what it took to do so. They are in a position to say "proud to be an American," at least more so than the provincial Amercian who was born here, never left here, and has no idea what the hell they're talking about. I have a cousin by marriage in Ireland who has been to the States several times, doesn't like the States, and is a very patriotic Irishman. Good for him. He's a very self-aware man and is happy with who and where he is. Good for him, the lucky bastard.
All I'm saying is, the man or woman who looks at who they are, likes who they are, and happens to enjoy the culture into which they were born is a very fortunate person. The man or woman who looks at their ethnic or cultural heritage as a badge of who they are and what they have accomplished in life strikes me as a person of low self-esteem.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Isn't there something somewhere about pride being a deadly sin?
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by fidkid
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
"Are there any Celts in Ireland or are they mostly english ?"
Wow! was that like a Yo-Mama insult?!!!!
*Crowd taunts in background with hands cupped over mouth*
Oooooooooohhhhhhh!!!!!!!
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I am happy with who I am Jimmy!
I don't see how being involved in charity work could be a cultural trait ( that's the individual 's choice) - you lost me there!
And your cousin is by no means on his own when it comes to disliking the States! The rest of the world's with him on that one.
Maybe you are referring to extremists on the far right when you're talkin' about national pride? I have never and will never count myself amongst that number!
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sligeach
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
My American ancestors bravely swam against the migratory tide, emigrating to Eurabia during the 1970s U.S. Fresca famine.
I often think of those noble, ape-like ancestors and wonder how they were able to pry their eyes away from the dazzling disco balls of America. Gosh, those spinning danglers must have been pretty!
Today, to honor my cultural heritage, I sing the songs of my ancestors: Ricky Don't Lose That Number, Piano Man, Muskrat Love. The Pina Colada Song. ¡Ay carumba!
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Yo! Are there any English left in England???
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sligeach
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
OK - some observations if I may -
1) "Pride" doesn't necessarily have to imply or infer a sense of superiority of one group over another. It isn't always ethnocentric. Often times, it can just represent a sense of group accomplishment - for example, achieving civil rights, overcoming tremendous adversity or poverty, finding equal footing amongst other ethnic groups within the greater society. Much of American "ethnic" pride is based upon these factors.
2) I don't expect Europeans or even Australians to ever understand the hyphenated identities with which many Americans choose to label themselves. It is a quirk of our immigrant heritage brought on by the economic competition within the various ethnic groups.
3) Almost as funny as the giddy guy with the shamrock on his guitar who can only sing one verse of the Irish National Anthem, is the person who becomes so upset over that guy's personal identification that they feel the need to poop. Who cares by what means people identify themselves? As long as silly guy's tunes don't interfere with your session, live and let live.
4) I'm an American of Irish immigrants. I understand what that means warts and all. Good and bad. Both plastic Shamrocks and miserable low-wage jobs. Being prejudiced against and being the bigots themselves. Their experiences and sacrifices have helped me understand how I came to be. There is value in that. Perspective.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Perspective.
In America you are Irish-American.
Rest of world - you are American!
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sligeach
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
The rest of the world are Americans? That makes no sense.....
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Your use of grammar makes no sense.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sligeach
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
someone somewhere told me once that the only true Englishman is Welsh
'We must learn to live together as brothers or perish together as fools.'
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by lisaniska
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
"....live together as brothers..." something the English wouldn't know too much about!
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sligeach
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Look, my Moldovan grandmama had lovely, alabaster feet.
Though I am as manly a man as you will ever encounter—okay?—I have inherited those lovely, alabaster feet. (Think Michelangelo's David's feet—only not as big and clunky and cold.)
Some might think this would mean that I'd take more pride in my Moldovan feet than in, say, my lush chestnut Cornish mane. But I don't.
You see, I love all of me. You can learn from this, people. Especially to love.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
No it's a fact, Americans (if were talking about the United States that is) consist of roughly 300 million people while the population of the whole world is only roughly 6 billion people. You see, it makes no sense.......
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
sigh - I wish I had a lush chestnut Cornish mane. My coconut looks more and more like Wayne Rooney's each and every day...
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
'Take away love, and our earth is a tomb.'
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by lisaniska
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
The population of the world is roughly 6 billion. Hmm and population of the States, 300 billion. Hmm and... can you count?
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sligeach
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Ooops! 300 million.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sligeach
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I see you have trouble reading as well.
Dear child, I said 300 MILLION, as you can look up and see. In case you don't know your numbers, one thousand million is equal to one billion. Isn't that neat Kiddo?
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: A Word n Ancestral Pride
And the existence of 300 million Americans makes the world in its entirety, American? You do the maths.. Oh sorry , forgot, you have trouble counting.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sligeach
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Jusa—
Then you'll soon be heading balls like Wayne, raking in major moolah.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Ah, were only true that thinning hair alone leads to sports riches and glory.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
"And the existence of 300 million Americans makes the world in its entirety, American?" -This is exactly what I am NOT saying.
After all you are the one who said:
"Rest of world - you are American!" -That's not true.
Now if I try to understand what you meant to say, I guess I could add to your statement and make some sense of it. Here goes it:
"(To the) Rest of (the) world - you are American!"
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
That's exactly what I did say!
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sligeach
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Prat!
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sligeach
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
(I) didn't think I needed to put (to the) and(the) into the statement.
(I) wrote it as I would say it!
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sligeach
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Jimmy you say 'I look at cultural identity as something that someone feels happy or gratefu for.' What culture are you grateful for?'. Is there a 'culture' you (or anyone else here)identify with? And Why? American? Irish? English? Austrailian. Do ya feel pride in your government. T.V. Pop music, country music, trash magazines. These things are our culture. From what I've seen it's all mostly garbage and that's why you have pockets of people rejecting modern culture and playing old tunes in what I would call (almost) a sub culture.
I don't care in the least about ethnic pride one way or the other. I saw a black guy the other day wearing a T shirt that said "F*** me I'm Irish". I thought it was brilliant.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by shanty
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I see.
Sorry about being a "Prat" then. I learned a new word today................
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Sorry too man! A total misunderstanding.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sligeach
~
Gretchen Wilson's answer to Brian Wison's - "California Girls"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6nygPJMNBU
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I think I can understand something of the Plastic Paddy thing because I'm (only!) a quarter Jewish, and when I started reading up the related stuff years ago I felt the pull to become a Plastic Hebe really pretty strongly. Not to seriously opt into Judaism, of course - too much like hard work and they're sensibly pretty short on wannabes who are not thoroughly committed to conversion. But it could be a rat-run into all kinds of fantasy and grandiosity, including underdog-ism and the notion that just by *being* something, one had permission to opt out of the ordinary rules and conditions of life in accordance with some romanticised stereotype.
It did induce me to get up and go to Israel for a week (something I'd always meant to do). This was in early 2000 when things were quiet. I saw Jerusalem, Bethlehem and Galilee. It all seemed very familiar - not because of ancestors walking there or anything, but because if you live in some mediaeval God place like Durham, Jerusalem or Bethlehem are simply variations on it. Galilee was very beautiful and, again, seemed very like an impression I might have got of it early in life at sunday school. Of course the whole place is peppered with churches of many kinds.
An overall impression I had of Israel was that it was a microcosm - a 'little world' in which someone coming from practically any corner of the globe might find something, some nook, that might help him, or her, feel deeply at home. It might be snow on Mount Hermon, a jungle by the Dead Sea - and so on. My sentiments are slanted in favour of Israel, but seeing the Bethlehem Palestinians I thought, "These people deserve their dignity, and a better deal than they're getting."
And there, really, I left it.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by nicholas
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
WTF?
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
WTF? was meant for the Gretchen Wilson video.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
My sense of justice slants me in favour of the Palestinians. Fair play that you, even with your "slant", can see they deserve better!
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sligeach
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I lived there for a year, Israel that is. Great times. Volunteered for the IDF actually.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
(I'm) Not biting!
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sligeach
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Problem with the Palestinians, as the Palestinians I worked with informed me, is that they keep blowing things up! Even when they are allowed to come across the border to work in Israel where they have better opportunities, they blow up the border guards!
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Sorry that was off topic ~ I'll try another one.
Bill Clinton & Liel;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iVllxd08qw
Cheers,
Ben
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
The problem with esprit de corps (as we called it in the military) is that it too often mutates into arrogance. And while pride in your abilities and your people is a positive thing, false pride and thinking you are above other people is definitely a negative. Think of Custer, who was so arrogant that he divided forces that were already too small in the face of his opponents.
I am proud of my ancestors, but that does not mean that other people cannot be proud of their own ancestors, even though they are different than mine.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
But then again, just when I think diversity is a good thing, along comes something like this, which showed up on my Facebook page:
"First Listen: The Chieftains Featuring Ry Cooder
www.npr.org
Ry Cooder's latest recording project is a cultural mashup of Mexican and Irish music called San Patricio. The album is performed by the Irish music icons in The Chieftains, along with Cooder himself and a handful of celebrated Mexican musicians."
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
YAY Israeli-Palestinian politics -- don't we all love it!
I definitely do see the worth in being "proud" of your nationality, or ethnicity, or whatever. But I think a certain definition needs to be given given for "pride".
I am English. (I'm also Jewish and half Irish, but for the purposes of this example, let's stick with English.) And I have pride in being English. But does this mean I indiscriminately love and defend everything the English have ever done? Of course not. But it means I have an emotional connection to England and the English. If an Englishman were to find a cure for cancer, I would be phenomenally proud. Not just happy -- I'd be happy if he was any nationality -- but proud, as well. Likewise, if an Englishman were to do something awful, I'd be not only angry or unhappy, but ashamed.
I root for England in sporting events. Why, because I think the English team/athlete is actually more deserving of victory than anyone else? No! Just because I'm English!
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Joe CSS
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I'm proud to be an American-Australian with Jewish/German roots.
I'm lucky to have been born at all and glad to be alive still. I'm proud to be obsessed with Irish Trad music. And I'm part Neanderthal
like everybody else!
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Hup
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
"I'm part Neanderthal
like everybody else!"
Please, Speak for yourself. I am not part Neanderthal.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I'm 31, and until recently, I didn't even know where my ancestors came from. Me being a 5 th generation and a mixture of four different things, it's irrelevant anyway. My family just never got into it. Growing up, I just knew I was "white" and it just wasn't cool to say that you were proud to be white.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Gringo
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
No me digas frijolero, Pinchi Gringo punetero.
Sorry just had to say that.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Dios mio Padre Pio, I fell in the Grande Rio
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by airport
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
tealeaf~
your middle name wouldn't be Windup, would it?
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by fiddlerdan
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
@Jwalkert:
That sounds really filthy - what does it mean?!...
Did you know that 'Gringo' comes from the first words of the song Green Grow The Laurels, which US soldiers sang a lot when they were fighting the Spanish / Mexicans? Or so I've been told.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by nicholas
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Green Grow the Rushes-o.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by gam
And it doesn't effect your playing of diddley at all!
I’m a Londoner (London in Europe that is). I have no ancestral, national or any other such ‘pride’.
I don’t feel British, English or anything and I can’t imagine wasting time and brain power on feeling pride for such a thing! How shallow!
Pride becomes before a fall!
Every nation (define as you wish) or even family has the good and the bad. One assumes ‘pride’ would only be appropriate for the positive/ good elements and not cover the negatives, so only loving the positive stereotype of your country, culture, history, ancestors or wotteffah is an idiotic, ignorant, uninformed concept. I’m proud to be me but I can’t possibly talk for any other individual (even if they are in my family/ house/ street/ block/ town/ county or state or department/ nation/ politically derived area or country/ continent/ planet/ star system/ galaxy/ universe) It’s individuals that matter. Each man (or woman) is different regardless of their culture, nationality, ancestry. Nationalism? Patriotism? Yuck! No thank you! It’s what we go to war over. And we don’t want that, do we?!
As Robert Burns said two & a half centuries ago: ‘A man’s a man for a’ that”.
P.S. can all you American (and some Australians) stop giving us the list of cultures/ nations that their forebears come from. We are not interested! Tell us about your playing of diddley diddley instead (which is not effected by any of the above, by the way!
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
yhaalhouse-I was chased by four bears one time. Apparently they didn't like me playing banjo in the woods!!!
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by shanty
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
"gringo" does indeed come from that song - it was a song by the Irish men who went to fight in the American civil war.
"can you dig it " originates from the Irish " an dtuigeann tu" (which means "do you understand").
the word "car" originates from the Old Irish word for chariot "carbad" (pronounced 'carbith'.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sligeach
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
" "....live together as brothers..." something the English wouldn't know too much about!"
Wham! 65 million people all tarred with the same brush in an instant. I could regale you with my ancestry as I've been doing my family history recently but what's the point with comments like that?
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I'm not interested in being regaled by you, so you're right, there is no point!
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sligeach
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
To return to your question JimmyB, "What I find interesting and also a bit bewildering is the notion of pride in regard to nationality/ethnicity/etc. How exactly does one feel pride at being Irish, or anything else for that matter"?
My take on that would be that in Ireland, people take a pride (maybe a false pride) in their Irishness in the sense of connection back over the generations, that sense of continuity. Of living in a country and landscape where their forebears once toiled etc. That's about it.
When you look at it coldly, it doesn't mean much as the way of life has transformed radically but people like to cling to sentiment - it's one of lifes little comforts and defences.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by the wounded hussar
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Ancestral Pride? Interesting concept.
I am an American, as much as anything else. My grandfather came from Cork. My roots are Irish, Dutch, and some German. I am pleased with the way that turned out. I am also the only one of my generation who really embraced the music in a serious way.
Not proud, just grateful if any of my ancestors gave me a propensity for this lovely hokey trad stuff.
No green beer, no shamrocks, but you can if you want -
Me, I play this stuff all year round.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Piece
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
'Rook' please pay attention to the PS at the end of my posting above.
Thank you old chap.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
'yhaalhouse' please pay attention to the original post. I think Rook has every right to address that rather than respond to anything posted under it.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by flossie
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
So I stopped by the Seminole reservation to pose this question to one of the elders.
"Sir, am I a mostly Irish hyphenated American with subtle Italian and English overtones, or am I simply an American?"
He laughed and said "You calling YOURSELF an American, pale face?"
I hung my head and went to play a few slot machines.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
More on 'gringo":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gringo#Origin_from_Henry_VIII.27s_Song_.22Green_Grows_the_Holly.22_and_Variants
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I am Italian, English, and Irish; Jewish, Catholic and Protestant, and embrace them all fully and joyously and with pride. Not the arrogant pride that causes wars, but the kind of pride that causes a mother's eyes to gleam.
If we can't make peace with our entire selves, there will never be peace in the world. Period.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I don't regret starting this thread. It turned out even slightly more civilized than I expected, though there was a little mudslinging. This was not a sociological experiment or anything, just something I was discussing with a friend and that was what I came up with on the subject. I was feeling philosophical and wanted to share it.
Somebody asked if I have American pride. No. USA has alot to be ashamed of, but I'm not ashamed of it. I served in the US military for six years, so if one disapproves of the USA and it's policies, and there certainly has been plenty to disapprove of, one may tell me that by such association my hands are dirty. I have some loyalty to the USA, because I do recognize her merits as well, and I am a citizen so I feel there should be some loyalty, but pride? No.
I thought of another perspective here as well. I was sort of painting the idea of pride into a corner to some extent. There is a feeling of pride one can feel about someone else. When my little boy does something that amazes me, I do well up with love and pride, or at least something that feels like pride, but it's a different kind of pride. I feel pride for him and what he did, and perhaps to some extent a sense of pride that he came from me. If I feel a connection to a person or a group of people, I can feel a sense of pride at something that they have accomplished. It's the very similar rush that I feel when I've accomplished something I worked very hard at. So, I understand the emotional motivations that causes one to feel pride over something he or she has not accomplished. Perhaps that's what I should understand. I was not raised with any strong cultural or ethnic connection, with the exception of having a racist father who resented all non-white people, until his edges smoothed in his old age and he ended up a fairly decent person. I, in my youthful rebellion, adopted attitudes quite different from his in an effort to aggravate him, largely unsuccessfully, because underneath the attitudes and character flaws was just a man who loved his son no matter what.
Thank you hussar and yhaalhouse for your posts, they were particularly succinct and well said, a skill I've had difficulty in cultivating, as you can see.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Jung differed from Freud in that he was convinced that the prime motive for the psyche was identity and greater meaning in life, not sex.
In that light, people being proud of or identifying with their ethnic ancestry are simply doing what Jung would consider a natural function of psychology.
Freud would say something about Oedipus and leprechauns, I'm sure. [shrug]
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Sorry Jimmy, I didn't mean to interrupt your closing, it was the psychological tone of your last post that got me thinking that way as well.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
SWFL -
I wasn't closing. This is the mustard boards. These threads keep going and going and going until the thread moves to the next page.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Jimmy B-- I think what some non-American folks just don't get, is that our pride in heritage thing isn't the same as their's is. They are inextricably linked to their land, and their bloodlines (sorry to sound like the AKC! lol) aren't as "muddy". Americans don't think of having an "American" culture, because we are a melting pot of many cultures. I can go to my neighbor's house and feel like I'm on another continent. We identify with an immigration culture. Our country isn't very old. Many folks that were born here are still first or second generation and can have a very close connection to where their folks or grandfolks immigrated from. Even if your family line has been here for a while, you still tend to think of your "culture" as that of your many, and often varied, ancestors. There really isn't too much of the "American" pride for "American" culture, because they just don't fit the definition of how other folks in other countries would define those terms. America is much too diverse for that. And that is perhaps where "American pride" might reside; the fact that we are a diverse country and we can't be boxed in too much.... and that makes us dangerous and fickle in many others' eyes.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Fiddlechick7
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
"...And that is perhaps where "American pride" might reside; the fact that we are a diverse country and we can't be boxed in too much...."
Well said, Fiddlechick7.
Also, I realized shortly after posting my lineage that I had forgotten to include American...as an example of your point of America being a young culture and our identifying with our heritage culture(s).
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Hello Jimmy, imho this is a hot button on the board. A few (similar) past discussions have been excommunicated out of our sight. Fair play though. ;)
Regardless of the baggage brought, before you showed up on the doorstep, I will try my best response to your question.
There is a pride which makes way for an effort to be best we can be. For example, when you hear a player play a tune in a way you want to play it yourself you take the time to learn it proper. And the pride comes, not just when you are happy with your playing, but when the player you admire looks over & gives you a smile. There is another type of pride which is empty yet excessive, it makes a person arrogant, out of touch really. In this pride one may wear the hat, but it is only for show without anything deeper.
I'm reading a book at the moment which I consider relevant ~ "Reverence: Renewing a Forgotten Virtue" By Paul Woodruff. In it he describes hubris, which would be the height of pride, dangerously so. But the gist of the book regards reverence, not the way we use it in the modern world, but as an almost lost virtue. Hope you like the excerpt.
"Reverence begins in a deep understanding of human limitations; from this grows the capacity to be in awe of whatever we believe lies outside our control - God, truth, justice, nature, even death. The capacity for awe, as it grows, brings with it the capacity for respecting human beings, flaws and all. . . reverence is the virtue that keeps leaders from trying to take tight control over other people's lives. Simply put, reverence is the virtue that keeps human beings from trying to act like gods."
Gretchen Wilson? Simple ~ Brian Wilson stated too much pride in putting "California Girls" above all others. Gretchen simply brought things back to earth. Whether you like her music or not isn't the point. ;)
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I figured it might be a hot button. I hope nobody has taken any offense over my thread. I don't doubt there may be members who view me as a silly American because of it and that's fine. Life goes on. I doubt very seriously this is a topic I will ever bring up again, it was just a moment in time I felt like sharing with my fellow mustard-boarders. I sincerely hope there was no great offense taken.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
In regard to the Irish Freud said "This is one race of people for whom psychoanalysis is of no use whatsoever" I'm proud of that
Salt
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by saltcast
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Pride, at its very very best, is nothing more than a self congratulatory selfish glow. All other forms of pride move downhill from there.
Ancestral pride, at its very very best is merely a paranoid need to belong. And history teaches us only too well where it goes downhill from there.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by ...
Pride: (answers.com)
1. A sense of one's own proper dignity or value; self-respect.
2. Pleasure or satisfaction taken in an achievement, possession, or association: parental pride.
3. Arrogant or disdainful conduct or treatment; haughtiness.
4. a) A cause or source of pleasure or satisfaction; the best of a group or class: These soldiers were their country's pride.
b) The most successful or thriving condition; prime: the pride of youth.
5. An excessively high opinion of oneself; conceit.
6. Mettle or spirit in horses.
7. A company of lions. See synonyms at flock1.
8. A flamboyant or impressive group: a pride of acrobats.
tr.v., prid·ed, prid·ing, prides.
To indulge (oneself) in a feeling of pleasure or satisfaction: I pride myself on this beautiful garden.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Ancestral Pride. If one takes Pride in the credits of one's predecessors, does one also have to take responsiblity for thier foibles....or worse.
Genetically, we all cross paths somewhere. So When the Olympic yahooism takes hold, I usually switch to the DIY home repair shows on public TV....or as a last resort, tolerate Herslef watching that innane "Home and Garden TV" Claptrap- which is always helped by copius amounts of alcohol
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by zippydw
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Mr. Leahcim. We haven't officially met, and I understand you are a person with whom to reckon and I do approach you with fear and trembling, but I disagree with you.
I think pride, at its very very best is an inner swelling and glow in knowing that something has gone well - whether it's your endeavor or someone else's.
And I think that ancestral pride at its very very best is the striving to do one's very best in order to honor those who came before you.
Thank you for your consideration.
PS I didn't know Freud was Irish.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
"an inner swelling and glow in knowing that something has gone well" = "nothing more than a self congratulatory selfish glow". We agree.
And the only reason yanks are big on ancestral pride is because they want to belong.
"to honor those who came before you." That's rubbish
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by ...
I see you have a new shovel Mr. Gill.
Cheers.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
If you leave out a word that is not needed "pride" is less than "a self congratulatory glow" because of its negative connotations. I think I'm agreeing with sara505sings.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by David50
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
It seems to me that this thread has become confused with the various meanings of the word "pride".
The "pride" llig leahcim and yhaalhouse are talking about is basically the idea that "I'm awesome, and my country/culture/ancestry/ethnicity/whatever is awesome, just because we are". That, of course, is wrong, and can lead to all sorts of terrible things. But I think it's also a pretty simplistic understanding of "pride". The kind of pride I feel -- though maybe it's not pride, maybe there's another name for it -- is more a kind of association with the country/culture/ancestry/whatever that I'm from, whether it's for good or bad. So, if an English person does something great, then I'd be pleased not just that he or she did something great, but that it was an English person that did it. And if they did something terrible, I'd be ashamed, in the same kind of way. The same would go if I was Swiss, Ukrainian, Korean, whatever (I did cover this about thirty posts ago, just no-one appears to have picked up on it...)
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Joe CSS
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Oh, you're not so scary after all; more grumpy than scary (as the little dog, Toto, scampers away after pulling the curtain open...).
That's not what I said. You left out the key words: "whether it's your endeavor or someone else's." That is not self-congratulatory.
Your second comment does not dignify a response.
Sorry to say, your point of view (this time - I actually agree with some of your musings) while entertaining, holds no water.
I agree - the concept of pride is difficult to define, but I think there have been some noble attempts.
Good conversation.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I'm glad I'm not scary.
But not proud I'm not scary.
However, the difference between "whether it's your endeavor or someone else's", is merely the difference between self congratulation and wanting to belong.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by ...
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I noticed most Americans mentioned that they are part Irish. I sometimes wonder if there is anyone who is more than a third generation American that is not part Irish. I recently met an older guy that has spent his entire life on an Indian Reservation, and a fairly isolated area at that, half of the people in his county don't even speak english. He's part Irish too.
It's amazing how the people from such a small Island have dominated the gene pool of such a large continent so far away. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it's impressive.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Gringo
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Not all talk of genetic provenance is about pride. Often, it’s merely about ancestral interest, curiosity, maybe locating oneself in history. I don’t accept any blame for my ancestors’ having probably owned slaves, so how can I take personal pride in anything admirable they might have done? However, I am curious about who they were and where they came from.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Look back far enough, a long way back, Bob, and see if the slavers and the enslaved (along with everyone else on earth) haven't got African ancestry. Pretty neat!
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Yeah, but we don’t really have to go back to Africa. I wonder how many of us “white” Southerners have plantation slaves in our ancestry.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Twice blessed. I vote to limit ancestral pride to those connections that are so remote in time that only a cheek swab can establish any link to a general region of the planet; like, say, some giant portion of the planet at the time of last Ice Age, at best.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Oh I don't know Llig - It seems you're quite proud to be a cynic. Far more so in fact than I am to have Irish ancestors. My guess is you're feeling quite a warm glow of self-congratulation e-slapping off our rose-tinted glasses.
Slap away grumpy old man. I am impervious to insult. I play the banjo.
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Isn't proud cynic an oxymoron?
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
probably
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
but there's no denying the warm glow...
# Posted on March 5th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
There are so many complicated things in this field that I'm almost glad my previous attempt at joining in got lost in the ether.
Consider; many Americans ( that is to say US citizens ) take pride in their ancestral heritage, and proudly proclaim themselves whatever-Americans. Once they cross the border, whichever way, everybody else in the world just looks on them as Americans, as the culture they have now in common vastly over powers anything still lingering from their old country.
Pride in ones' ancestry is a dangerous thing; did you ever hear about the fly that hatched from a maggot that fed on the body of a lion ?
Personally I know that I'm Norman-French, French, Scots, and Irish, in no particular order, but I'm also West Indian as Granny was born in Barbados. Hmmmmmmm. White Anglo-Saxon Protestant I'm not.
Far better to be proud of ones' accomplishments.
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I seem to be repeating myself.
Must be the Somezeimers - I've forgotten some of the things I used to know.
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Too broad a paintbrush Guernsey Pete. I am aware of my ancestral heritage, but only proud of my direct ancestors who survived untold hardships to make it to the states. They happen to have been Irish. That's all. I know plenty of Americans who are utterly indifferent to what happened before they were born - and don't care a wit where their people came from.
It is understood that once we cross the border, we are all lumped in as Yanks.
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I suppose the underlying question has to do with pride vs. humility. If pride is used in a context where it refers to dignity &/or self-respect I think it may be considered humble. Of course, in a different context pride, may be used as a synonym of arrogant. Depends.
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Count back far enough, and your ancestors happen to be my ancestors. We can glow in a shared pride in their accomplishments. Think about it -- the Clovis point was new, and just beginning to improve the human world; someone had hit on the brilliant idea to take the obsidian bits off war clubs, and replace them with shark's teeth. Mankind was off, and running.
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by Atahualpa Quigley
There is no Ancestral Pride, only The Tunes . . .
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revalation
And the mind's true liberation
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
. . .
revalation?
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I tell you one thing I am NOT proud of, and that is wasting part of my life reading threads like this one. Can we get back to talking about music?
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by AlBrown
Pride Sucks! Bring back the real discussions. ***!!!
What, a hippie song doesn't qualify as music? ;)
Right on Al, I'm with you! In all fairness I did try to hijack another thread with my session/tune related question. It sunk like a brick.
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Sorry Random, not kvetching about your post, just the thread in general!
Speaking of pride, but taking it in the direction of music, I was very proud of my efforts to play a tune yesterday that has lots of opportunities for rolls, and was rolling like a son of a gun. Usually, I am not the best at rolls.
Unfortunately, as soon as I conciously realized that I was succeeding, I stopped being able to play those rolls well the next time around.
The pride goeth before the fall, I suppose.
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: A *word* on ancestral pride
No worries, as soon as I get over jacking the lame threads I'll come up with my own {lame thread} ~ at least I'll tie it in with playing tunes. Keep on those articulations Al. ;)
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Don't you love how music brings us all together?Ha!
On the idea of not taking pride in the accomplishments of one's ancestors, because you then must share in their mistakes, I don't see it that way at all. To live and learn and grow as a person you should see good and bad clearly. Then by looking at what your ancestors did, you can say "I'm proud of that because it was a good thing" or I'm ashamed of that because it was wrong", although to do this you must admit that your ancestors were wrong in some way thus making you in turn feel wrong, well this is just a growth inhibiting trick. You should be proud of the good things your ancestors did, and try to continue on in that way, and you should be ashamed of the bad things your ancestors did and remember not to do that anymore. You see, if you don't congratulate yourself, then you must not reprove yourself as well, how will you know which direction to take?! You will be lukewarm and riding the thin rail of a fence, moving neither ahead nor back. You have to take the bad with the good in this life, that's just the way it is, but don't be a coward and try to have none of the good because your afraid of the bad, and afraid of learning. By "learning" something you admit that you didn't know it in the first place. So to tie music back into this, that is one reason I like playing Trad music, it reminds people of lessons learned long ago, and we shouldn't forget that. These tunes and songs are a remnant of those times, they are the closest you can get to "feeling" what was going on...... and I like it cause it sounds really really cool.
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Did the music not bring you here?
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Fiddlechick
"They are inextricably linked to their land, and their bloodlines (sorry to sound like the AKC! lol) aren't as "muddy". Americans don't think of having an "American" culture, because we are a melting pot of many cultures"
I disagree. People in England Scotland Ireland and Wales are just as mixed culturally as most in the US. These are islands on the edge of Europe where fleeing ethnic groups had to stop and interbreed before they fell into the sea and drowned!
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by eiluned
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I'll buy that. English, Scottish, Welsh, Irish, It's all the same to me. I can barley tell the difference between these people.
I'm from the southern part of the USA but I spend a lot of time up north. The people up there tell me that I have an accent, but I'm sure we all sound the same to Europeans. They call us all "Yanks" regardless of where we are from.
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by Gringo
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I'm proud to have dark hair. And brown eyes. Dark haired people fight for justice, are tolerent towards light haired people and are better musicians. we only hang out in authentic Irish bars.I'm not a bigot I just am proud, in a good way, of my brown hair.
TOO BAD IT'S ALL ON MY BAAACCCCKKK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by shanty
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
If I was Fred Morrison I would be proud of my piping skills and that beautiful mane!
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by Jwalkert
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Jusa Nutter Eejit, when you mention people who are utterly indifferent to what happened before they were born and don't care where their people came from, you are giving an accurate description of my sister-in-law.
As for not caring where your people came from, sometimes it may be difficult to accurately determine where your ancestors came from because record keeping in the past wasn't as accurate as it is now. Also, records sometimes got lost or disappeared because they were burned or eaten by termites.
This is why I tell people I am a Chicagoan because that is where I was born and raised although both of my parents weren't born and raised in Chicago or even in Illinois.
So far as I can tell, most of my ancestors seem to have come here from northern and western Europe but I don't think I can be completely sure of that. I know I am not going to worry about it or lose any sleep over it.
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
This thread is very uncomfortable. I know that out there there are folk who do think that one group is 'better' more 'noble' have 'suffered' more than others, even if they are very comfortably off themselves. As individuals of that group (football team, county whatever) they feel they have a moral high over anyone (individual) who ostensibly comes from a group perceived historically to be an oppressor. Those who do that are buying in to the propaganda of politics and not listening to the individual voice of the person concerned.
The great joy that session playing has brought to the world via the largely Irish diaspora has been to show that music can be a sort of comunication which doesn't use words and doesn't become coloured by ethnicity or religion. In short, nobody will react differently to me in a session because of the behaviour or religion of my grandparents, as long as I play the tunes Ok and try to fit in with it.
We shouldn't make assumptions - we should always get to know the person or just listen to their music.
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by eiluned
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Your entire post is an assumption, eiluned. There wasn't a single post above that suggested anyone thought their ancestry was more noble or better or than anybody else.
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
That's true and I apologise if you were in any way offended - it was not intended. I said people out there - meaning it generally. I come across these attitudes all the time unfortunately, so it's less an assumption more bitter experience and as I said, people in sessions tend to communicate through music so hopefully it is less likely I'll see it here .
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by eiluned
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
no worries - enjoy your day
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Up in the thread I gave some dictionary definitions for the word pride. However, I do get an impression that some, on the board or not ~ your guess is as good as mine, may use the term pride as something wholly undesirable. Or is that holy undesirable?
http://www.deadlysins.com/sins/
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
. . .
While I have heard of the 7 Deadly Sins . . . this I did not know . . . The Seven Contrary Virtues: humility, kindness, abstinence, chastity . . .
The Contrary Virtues were derived from the Psychomachia ("Battle for the Soul"). Practicing these virtues is alledged to protect one against temptation toward the Seven Deadly Sins: humility against pride . . .
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I'm proud to be an Earthling , ling pupa
can you prove it?I always suspected you were an extra terrestrial
# Posted on March 6th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
It's a small world!
# Posted on March 7th 2010 by eiluned
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I used to think of myself as English when I was a boy born in Luton Town, then as a young teenager I discovered my Scottish roots (my dad a scot by birth.)We went to Wembley to watch England versus Scotland schoolboy international school trip (football/soccer) I was kitted out in tartan; it was my 13 year old identity. Later, after years of banging on about my Scottish heritage I discovered most of my great grandparents came from Donegal and my name from Red Hugh O’Donnell, a Chieftain from the Tyrone/Antrim area centuries back.
Now, I just feel like a bit of a mongrel really and not bothered about cultural connections. With my English accent though, every time I mention ITM, the question comes “Do you have Irish roots?”-which sounds like-are you authorised?
The pride of a past I knew little about has lessened and now what is happening is new again- the music is no longer Irish – it is just music. I know that I see/hear it differently from those around me who don’t share my interest in ITM and only my wife understands. But she’s really smart. My 2p worth
As for the comment about ‘yahooing at the Olympics’; you’ve missed the whole point of the games; an acknowledgement of human tribalism and an attempt to focus it in a positive way through sport rather than violence.
# Posted on March 7th 2010 by Eòsaph
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I was adopted a birth so I'm proud to be the bastard spawn of a a knocked up school girl. On St. Paddy's day I dye my hair green, tie a shamrock to my p#cker and put on my "kiss me I"m Irish " t-shirt. There are some advantages to being a bastard!
# Posted on March 7th 2010 by croxton
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
To add to what I said earlier, there is no way you can get in a time machine and find out what your ancestors may or may not have done.
After reading Eosaph's post, I think whatever roots I have are in the city where I was born and raised although both of my parents were born and raised somewhere else.
Supposedly some of my ancestors came here from Ireland but I don't know whether or not that is true. I guess that means I am just as "authorised" as Eosaph.
I do know that I enjoy playing music in my free time and I intend to continue playing music as long as I can.
# Posted on March 7th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I live in a certain Nordic land where it seems to me that people have decided to abandon a wonderful and sophisticated musical tradition for commercial, egocentric, watered-down dribble - because being perceived as modern is something that they take great pride in. Nothing distress me more than the idea that Ireland will follow suit.
If pride is being glad to be part of something wonderful, then I am proud of my Gaelic heritage. And if pride in ones cultural heritage means that there are people there who are willing to fight for the survival of it, them I'm all in favour of pride!
# Posted on March 7th 2010 by Barra Ó Gríobhtha
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
"to abandon a wonderful and sophisticated musical tradition for commercial, egocentric, watered-down dribble - because being perceived as modern is something that they take great pride in"
No worries Barra, Ireland already did that in the 40s and 50s. Us cheesy Americans had to buy millions of Clancy Brothers records to show them otherwise.
# Posted on March 7th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
...but seriously, you ever notice how all the fiddlers and pipers recorded here, in America? Coleman, Patsy Touhey, Paddy Canny, etc. Yes, you're welcome. What do we get for it? For having dance halls in Boston with 1,000+ people dancing The Siege of Ennis on Saturday night in a huge ballroom while Ireland was laughing at its fiddlers and dancing the night away to Country & Western in the 50s?
Oh well, we did it out of love. Ah, the unrequited love of the Irish American. Ha ha.
Footnotes: http://www.upne.com/1-55553-610-7.html
# Posted on March 7th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
So the Irish-American community saved trad for us poor native Irish! Are you really trying to say that trad wouldn't have survived until the resurgence in the late '50 and '60 without LPs home from the States and ballrooms in Boston? Complete and utter nonsense! Even Mick Moloney, who has thought long and hard about the role of America in trad doesn't go that far. You'd have a much, much stronger case if you'd hung your hat on the importance of the Irish in Britain.
Sure trad is a minor art form in Ireland, always has been, always will be. But lots of families kept the faith over generations going back into the C19th.
Yep, you pushed a button there all right!, Perhaps you weren't being serious.
# Posted on March 7th 2010 by Sweeney Astray
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I postulated this some years ago on the subject of patriotism, but it applies to Ancestral Pride as well:
"Patriotism is the mistaken notion that the accident of the geopolitical location of one's birth has higher meaning that membership in the human race and citizenship of Planet Earth."
Feel free to quote me.
# Posted on March 7th 2010 by michaelr
Word on Boston
Thanks for the book link SWFL. I'll add it to my list. Following Oliver Sacks "Musicophilia" & (are you ready?) Jane Austen's "Pride & Prejudice" The book looks good. I have been to Boston only one time (~ 1974 or so). Thouroughly enjoyed my time.
# Posted on March 7th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
I have also read the book recommended by SWFL, and recommend it myself. I was surprised as I read it to find the woman who taught me ceildhe dance, Maureen Keohane, played such a large role in the Boston dance scene. Since then, I have found that her students, and students of those students, can be found all over the USA.
Although I wouldn't go as far as to say that the USA saved traditional music when it died back home in Ireland--I suspect that was a bit of hyperbole from our friend SWFL!
# Posted on March 7th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: A Word on Ancestral Pride
Just because my grandmother's surname was Malone before she married my grandfather doesn't necessarily mean that I am part Irish or of Irish descent, right? Yes, no, maybe? I have been told that Malone is an Irish name but I don't know how accurate that is.
# Posted on March 7th 2010 by fauxcelt