Here's one for the music historians;
My wife plays a 19thc wooden flute, 4 keys + tuning slide, and the slide normally has to be pulled out up to an inch to keep in key with the rest of us. My question is; what key is this flute in ? Is it a rather low E flat, hence it tunes easily down to the modern D (A=440), or is it a D with a lot of tuning available both sides of standard pitch ?
From research on the maker of the instrument, it is probably about 1865 - 1870 in date of manufacture.
Terry McGee - exactly. He's the expert. I'm not. However, the short answer MAY be, that:
Remember that for the period when a lot of the 19c wooden flutes were made, there were at least three radically different pitches for A. There was baroque pitch, which, from memory, was somewhere around A=415; there was British High Pitch (later in the century), which may have been as high as A=455; and there was something in between, which may have varied between about A=435 and A=445. Many 19c flutes were made to able to be played reasonably anywhere in this range, by means both of extending the tuning slide and adjusting the cork position in the head joint - hence the patent head on R&R flutes.
It is very common for 19c flutes which play very well at A=440 to need the tuning slide extended about 18mm - 20mm. this is not quite an inch, but then a lot is also dependent on the individual player and their particular embouchure. Some people play sharper (or flatter) than others.
A=415 is a modern invention to provide a sort of "standard baroque pitch." Pitch changed based on region more than time. England was fairly high pitch, while the continent was generally lower, in the 1800s. However definitely lots of flutes were intended to be played over at least somewhat of a wide range.
This is all paraphrased from what I recall Hammy Hamilton telling me in regards to the flute he sold me, a restored old flute that plays more in tune with itself at A=440 with the head pulled out almost an inch, but with less brightness and responsiveness than pushed in all the way.
Since it's almost certainly a D flute, the question is not what key it's in but what pitch it's designed for (A=?). If it's at A=440 with the tuning slide out an inch, it's designed to play higher. (A=452--high pitch--might make it seem like a flat Eb flute.)
Hmmm, Nico, A=415 for Baroque pitch isn't a modern invention. It was certainly round about one of the pitches used in the baroque. It is used, by convention, in modern times to serve as a sort of universal pitch for playing baroque music, if you're into historically authentic performance.
Whilst it is definitely true that location played a major role in pitch, with, at different times, widely differing pitches for instruments from different countries, there is also a major influence based on time/era. Like, for instance, the late 19c being the era of British High Pitch.
Now, typically, though not necessarily always, we're talking about English instruments when we think of 19c conical bore simple system flutes. They are the typical instrument used by Irish musicians - assuming, that is, that they (the particular player) favour antique rather than modern instruments. So, in that case, pitch has more to do with time than place. Even so, at least 3 different pitches existed simultaneously in England for large parts of the 19c.
A flute, or even a whistle, isn't like a tuning fork where it plays a certain note every time. The question might be "with whom can you comfortable play this flute?" The player can "lip" notes around a fair amount.
As No Cause indicates, you can use the tuning slide to move any particular note sharp or flat, but sadly the other tone holes move with it, and you'll have to "make up the difference" on those other notes.
If you want to learn where the flute is most at home, just play something nice, something that isn't too fast so you can hear and adjust the notes a bit. Then move the slide in and out until the tune sounds best with respect to itself.
Or, go get Terry's RTTA (free-Thanks Terry!) and play tunes into your computer and look at the plots. If the plot of the low register ramps up from left to right, pull out the slide and go again. The reason the ramp-up is improved by pulling out the slide is because on a percentage basis you move the high notes more than the low notes. The reverse is of course true - if your plot ramps down when moving left to right, push in.
Don't worry about what the actual notes are called today, go for the flattest plot you can. This is where the person who built the flute meant for it to be played.
Once you get the slope out, you will see some sharp and some flat notes. Are these on purpose? Is this the byproduct of compromises with the tone? Do these notes sound better when you modify your embouchure to pull them into tune? Are these notes meant to sound good when played with a D drone (Just Intonation?) It's hard to say. The bottom line is "Do you like playing the flute?"
I have adjusted the tuning of a couple nach Meyer flutes that were more like C# flutes when I received them. Yes, I could put the A real close to 440, but the rest of the notes really sucked. So I cut some length out of the head joint to get the top three holes close, and then drilled and under-cut the finger holes to get a flute I could play in our Equal Temperament session.
I like to tune my "A" for the fiddles since it's an open string for them and they can't chase me around on that note. On non-open notes they can meet me part way when needed.
Oh, as for whistles, I can adjust my whistles so at 80 degrees the plot is almost perfectly flat and dead on A=440. Then when the shop cools off to 64 degrees, the whistle either plays flat or the plot ramps up to the right because I've pushed in the tuning slide one millimeter. Yeah, one millimeter and the whistle is out of tune with itself. This is why it's important to warm up your instruments and keep them warm if you are playing with others.
Unless swiffle has had a bad day, in which case, it's a slightly poor temperament session, at least until he gets a few pints in him. Then it's happy temperament time!
A lot of people who know a lot more than me have posted here now. Much thanks everyone !
However, Darragh, I would disagree with you, because;
1) just using the open holes it plays in D ( with a bit of tuning slide ).
2) there is no extension, or sign of one, or room for it in its case, to take it down to C.
I've got one like that. I mean, one that needs stretching out max to play in D.
To make matters a bit more complicated, it's actually bits from two flutes (one of these made by Potter, c19 London I believe).
It was a b*gg*r to play. It reminded me of what is said about Roman army training - recruits were given practice swords twice as heavy as real swords, to make them extra fit.
It didn't make me extra fit. Molloy's throne rests secure.
Haven't played it for years. But I'm not giving it away. Practised musicians have poured torrents of music out of it with insouciant ease, and tell me it's actually very good. It's there for if the box conks out.
A=460 was used extensively in bands in central Europe in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. I bought what I thought was going to be a C clarinet in Prague once (it wasn't quite playable so I couldn't tell). It turned out to be a C# clarinet in modern terms, and since clarinets are much less pitch-bendable than flutes, that was the only pitch I could use it at.
Haven't read all of the above, so apologies if I do some repeating. Yes, it's quite a common experience to find you need to pull 19th c flutes well out. Because pitch wasn't standardised, the poor flute makers of the times had to do their best to get the flute to cover the region between A430 (fortepiano pitch) and A455 (Philharmonic society pitch). Impossible of course, but that was how it was. They left 3mm to allow for cold weather, and so 440 Hz ends up about 15mm further out than that - say 18mm!
Now, just to make matters even more interesting, they used to blow downward into the flute and turn the head in, both things that will make the flute flatter, requiring that we either do the same or pull the flute out even further. You can probably see where the inch is coming from.
Now, if your wife has had any previous experience with the metal flute or been influenced by metal flute players, she might like to try out this approach, which should flatten the flute a bit for her, while producing a harder darker tone:
--------
Getting the hard, dark tone.
"Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy. " William Butler Yeats 1865-1939 ...
Especially if you've come from the classical tradition, you probably tend to blow "across" the top of the hole towards the far edge. This gives a bright, lively tone which may not be the tone you are looking for for Irish music. It also gives a fairly sharp pitch. Try this for achieving a darker, more mysterious and flatter tone...
Turn the head of the flute in towards you, typically so the far edge of the hole is in line with the middle of the finger holes. Cover as much of the embouchure hole as you feel comfortable doing. None of this is critical, so don't obsess over it!
Now blow in your usual style, say a low G note. Listen to the tone. As you blow, push out your top lip, or pull in your bottom lip, or both, so that you are directing your jet of air more and more downwards, "towards the centre of the flute". As the jet aims lower and lower, you should hear the sound harden and darken, as more of the energy is directed away from the fundamental of the note, and into its second harmonic. It will still sound like low G, but firmer and reedier - more like a reed instrument. It might help you to visualise trying to blow a grain of rice off your chin! Or holding your palm in front of your mouth to feel where you are directing the air.
Now, experiment with wafting the jet up and down, up towards the edge, then down towards the centre of the flute, and you should hear the range of tonal possibilities available to you. You'll probably want to adjust the opening between the lips at both ends of the range to get the cleanest tone.
Interestingly, the great Mr Nicholson, who was a household name in London in the early 1800s, taught that the hard tone (blowing down) should be used most of the time, with the soft tone (blowing to the edge) only being used for special effect. You'll find his instructions at http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Nicholson_on_Tone.htm
When I suggest it's designed to play at a certain pitch, I mean there must be a 'sweet spot' where the tuning is best. In practice, of course, flutes and players had to be able to adapt to other pitches.
Of course, Rudall and Rose went pretty far in trying to build multi-pitch instrument with their patent head--but since the tone holes don't slide along with the stopper and tuning slide, there must be an optimal pitch somewhere within the range.
Again, tintin, have a look at Terry's site - especially the bit where he assesses exactly that point in relation to a late period Rudall (not a Rudall & Rose). The optimum position may not be where you think it would be. Because of the wide range of pitches expected, it was often somewhere with the tuning slide pulled quite far out (but not as far as it would go by some way). And the tuning won't be 'right' with the slide in any position ...
To an extent ... Seriously, read Terry's investigation on the late Rudall flute. It's fascinating. And explains a lot about 19c flutes. It also helps to show why there are tuning problems with 19c flutes and also what may be going on with flutes made to play at different pitches.
Terry - Thanks for your description of getting the 'irish' flute sound.
I've managed to stumble into it by trial and error exactly as you
described, so it's good to get validation.
No worries, Hup. I had a bit of a voyage of discovery too. It puzzles me that no-one had been discussing blowing approach(s) used by Irish fluters - it seems an important issue to me, so I've been trying to promote discussion. Seems to be starting to succeed!
Many of my antique German or American flutes in the German style seem to be built for "diapson normal," A=435. They are great for what they are, but on eBay you'll be lucky to get a seller who can test an old flute, often the pads are leaky so it's non-functioning in the first place, making buying old instruments like these a crapshoot if you want something in modern tuning. As others say the English instruments can be all over the place.
What's the key of a flute ?
What's the key of a flute ?
Here's one for the music historians;
My wife plays a 19thc wooden flute, 4 keys + tuning slide, and the slide normally has to be pulled out up to an inch to keep in key with the rest of us. My question is; what key is this flute in ? Is it a rather low E flat, hence it tunes easily down to the modern D (A=440), or is it a D with a lot of tuning available both sides of standard pitch ?
From research on the maker of the instrument, it is probably about 1865 - 1870 in date of manufacture.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
I would have thought it was in D or otherwise pulling it out enough to drop it from Eb to D would probably put it out of tune with itself.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
Terry McGee?
http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Tuning.html
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
Terry McGee - exactly. He's the expert. I'm not. However, the short answer MAY be, that:
Remember that for the period when a lot of the 19c wooden flutes were made, there were at least three radically different pitches for A. There was baroque pitch, which, from memory, was somewhere around A=415; there was British High Pitch (later in the century), which may have been as high as A=455; and there was something in between, which may have varied between about A=435 and A=445. Many 19c flutes were made to able to be played reasonably anywhere in this range, by means both of extending the tuning slide and adjusting the cork position in the head joint - hence the patent head on R&R flutes.
It is very common for 19c flutes which play very well at A=440 to need the tuning slide extended about 18mm - 20mm. this is not quite an inch, but then a lot is also dependent on the individual player and their particular embouchure. Some people play sharper (or flatter) than others.
I would say it's a flute in D.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
A=415 is a modern invention to provide a sort of "standard baroque pitch." Pitch changed based on region more than time. England was fairly high pitch, while the continent was generally lower, in the 1800s. However definitely lots of flutes were intended to be played over at least somewhat of a wide range.
This is all paraphrased from what I recall Hammy Hamilton telling me in regards to the flute he sold me, a restored old flute that plays more in tune with itself at A=440 with the head pulled out almost an inch, but with less brightness and responsiveness than pushed in all the way.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by Nico
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
Since it's almost certainly a D flute, the question is not what key it's in but what pitch it's designed for (A=?). If it's at A=440 with the tuning slide out an inch, it's designed to play higher. (A=452--high pitch--might make it seem like a flat Eb flute.)
Here's another page on McGee's site that might be useful: http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/flutelengths.htm
Also: http://www.oldflutes.com
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by mcswiss
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
Hmmm, Nico, A=415 for Baroque pitch isn't a modern invention. It was certainly round about one of the pitches used in the baroque. It is used, by convention, in modern times to serve as a sort of universal pitch for playing baroque music, if you're into historically authentic performance.
Whilst it is definitely true that location played a major role in pitch, with, at different times, widely differing pitches for instruments from different countries, there is also a major influence based on time/era. Like, for instance, the late 19c being the era of British High Pitch.
Now, typically, though not necessarily always, we're talking about English instruments when we think of 19c conical bore simple system flutes. They are the typical instrument used by Irish musicians - assuming, that is, that they (the particular player) favour antique rather than modern instruments. So, in that case, pitch has more to do with time than place. Even so, at least 3 different pitches existed simultaneously in England for large parts of the 19c.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
Oh, and I don't agree, tintin. It is probably designed to play at a range of pitches, as set out above.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
A flute, or even a whistle, isn't like a tuning fork where it plays a certain note every time. The question might be "with whom can you comfortable play this flute?" The player can "lip" notes around a fair amount.
As No Cause indicates, you can use the tuning slide to move any particular note sharp or flat, but sadly the other tone holes move with it, and you'll have to "make up the difference" on those other notes.
If you want to learn where the flute is most at home, just play something nice, something that isn't too fast so you can hear and adjust the notes a bit. Then move the slide in and out until the tune sounds best with respect to itself.
Or, go get Terry's RTTA (free-Thanks Terry!) and play tunes into your computer and look at the plots. If the plot of the low register ramps up from left to right, pull out the slide and go again. The reason the ramp-up is improved by pulling out the slide is because on a percentage basis you move the high notes more than the low notes. The reverse is of course true - if your plot ramps down when moving left to right, push in.
Don't worry about what the actual notes are called today, go for the flattest plot you can. This is where the person who built the flute meant for it to be played.
Once you get the slope out, you will see some sharp and some flat notes. Are these on purpose? Is this the byproduct of compromises with the tone? Do these notes sound better when you modify your embouchure to pull them into tune? Are these notes meant to sound good when played with a D drone (Just Intonation?) It's hard to say. The bottom line is "Do you like playing the flute?"
I have adjusted the tuning of a couple nach Meyer flutes that were more like C# flutes when I received them. Yes, I could put the A real close to 440, but the rest of the notes really sucked. So I cut some length out of the head joint to get the top three holes close, and then drilled and under-cut the finger holes to get a flute I could play in our Equal Temperament session.
I like to tune my "A" for the fiddles since it's an open string for them and they can't chase me around on that note. On non-open notes they can meet me part way when needed.
Oh, as for whistles, I can adjust my whistles so at 80 degrees the plot is almost perfectly flat and dead on A=440. Then when the shop cools off to 64 degrees, the whistle either plays flat or the plot ramps up to the right because I've pushed in the tuning slide one millimeter. Yeah, one millimeter and the whistle is out of tune with itself. This is why it's important to warm up your instruments and keep them warm if you are playing with others.
Hope this helps!
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by cjp
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
"our Equal Temperament session"
Unless swiffle has had a bad day, in which case, it's a slightly poor temperament session, at least until he gets a few pints in him. Then it's happy temperament time!
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
Technically its in the key of C.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Darragh Ó C
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
A lot of people who know a lot more than me have posted here now. Much thanks everyone !
However, Darragh, I would disagree with you, because;
1) just using the open holes it plays in D ( with a bit of tuning slide ).
2) there is no extension, or sign of one, or room for it in its case, to take it down to C.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
I've got one like that. I mean, one that needs stretching out max to play in D.
To make matters a bit more complicated, it's actually bits from two flutes (one of these made by Potter, c19 London I believe).
It was a b*gg*r to play. It reminded me of what is said about Roman army training - recruits were given practice swords twice as heavy as real swords, to make them extra fit.
It didn't make me extra fit. Molloy's throne rests secure.
Haven't played it for years. But I'm not giving it away. Practised musicians have poured torrents of music out of it with insouciant ease, and tell me it's actually very good. It's there for if the box conks out.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by nicholas
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
A=460 was used extensively in bands in central Europe in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. I bought what I thought was going to be a C clarinet in Prague once (it wasn't quite playable so I couldn't tell). It turned out to be a C# clarinet in modern terms, and since clarinets are much less pitch-bendable than flutes, that was the only pitch I could use it at.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Jack Campin
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
Hi all
Haven't read all of the above, so apologies if I do some repeating. Yes, it's quite a common experience to find you need to pull 19th c flutes well out. Because pitch wasn't standardised, the poor flute makers of the times had to do their best to get the flute to cover the region between A430 (fortepiano pitch) and A455 (Philharmonic society pitch). Impossible of course, but that was how it was. They left 3mm to allow for cold weather, and so 440 Hz ends up about 15mm further out than that - say 18mm!
Now, just to make matters even more interesting, they used to blow downward into the flute and turn the head in, both things that will make the flute flatter, requiring that we either do the same or pull the flute out even further. You can probably see where the inch is coming from.
Now, if your wife has had any previous experience with the metal flute or been influenced by metal flute players, she might like to try out this approach, which should flatten the flute a bit for her, while producing a harder darker tone:
--------
Getting the hard, dark tone.
"Being Irish, he had an abiding sense of tragedy, which sustained him through temporary periods of joy. " William Butler Yeats 1865-1939 ...
Especially if you've come from the classical tradition, you probably tend to blow "across" the top of the hole towards the far edge. This gives a bright, lively tone which may not be the tone you are looking for for Irish music. It also gives a fairly sharp pitch. Try this for achieving a darker, more mysterious and flatter tone...
Turn the head of the flute in towards you, typically so the far edge of the hole is in line with the middle of the finger holes. Cover as much of the embouchure hole as you feel comfortable doing. None of this is critical, so don't obsess over it!
Now blow in your usual style, say a low G note. Listen to the tone. As you blow, push out your top lip, or pull in your bottom lip, or both, so that you are directing your jet of air more and more downwards, "towards the centre of the flute". As the jet aims lower and lower, you should hear the sound harden and darken, as more of the energy is directed away from the fundamental of the note, and into its second harmonic. It will still sound like low G, but firmer and reedier - more like a reed instrument. It might help you to visualise trying to blow a grain of rice off your chin! Or holding your palm in front of your mouth to feel where you are directing the air.
Now, experiment with wafting the jet up and down, up towards the edge, then down towards the centre of the flute, and you should hear the range of tonal possibilities available to you. You'll probably want to adjust the opening between the lips at both ends of the range to get the cleanest tone.
Interestingly, the great Mr Nicholson, who was a household name in London in the early 1800s, taught that the hard tone (blowing down) should be used most of the time, with the soft tone (blowing to the edge) only being used for special effect. You'll find his instructions at http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Nicholson_on_Tone.htm
Gunn, a slightly earlier Scottish teacher gives similar instructions at http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Gunn%20on%20Tone.htm
And towards the end of the 19th century, Rockstro is holding out for a tone about halfway between! See http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Rocksto_on_tone.html
Once you have it working for G, try it out right across the flute range. You'll find it especially useful for getting a firm, resonant "Hard" low D.
Terry
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Terry McGee
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
Thanks Terry! I was hoping you'd come in at some point.
Thank goodness for genuine expertise!
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
Oh bugger! I've just realised that my last post could be misinterpreted.
For clarity, what I meant was that Terry has genuine expertise as opposed to *me*. I'm rubbish. Everyone else is grand.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
Ummm... Terry: If you're playing flatter, wouldn't the head be pushed IN (not pulled out)?
Pat
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by plunk111
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
Pull yer head in, mate.
(feck, I just couldn't resist that. Sorry, prof, sorry. It just had to be done. Full marks for trying.)
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
When I suggest it's designed to play at a certain pitch, I mean there must be a 'sweet spot' where the tuning is best. In practice, of course, flutes and players had to be able to adapt to other pitches.
Of course, Rudall and Rose went pretty far in trying to build multi-pitch instrument with their patent head--but since the tone holes don't slide along with the stopper and tuning slide, there must be an optimal pitch somewhere within the range.
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by mcswiss
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
Again, tintin, have a look at Terry's site - especially the bit where he assesses exactly that point in relation to a late period Rudall (not a Rudall & Rose). The optimum position may not be where you think it would be. Because of the wide range of pitches expected, it was often somewhere with the tuning slide pulled quite far out (but not as far as it would go by some way). And the tuning won't be 'right' with the slide in any position ...
# Posted on February 19th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
"And the tuning won't be 'right' with the slide in any position ..."
Well, it seems my above posts were a bit optimistic. Perhaps there's a point where it's optimally out of tune?
# Posted on February 20th 2010 by mcswiss
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
To an extent ... Seriously, read Terry's investigation on the late Rudall flute. It's fascinating. And explains a lot about 19c flutes. It also helps to show why there are tuning problems with 19c flutes and also what may be going on with flutes made to play at different pitches.
# Posted on February 20th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
Terry - Thanks for your description of getting the 'irish' flute sound.
I've managed to stumble into it by trial and error exactly as you
described, so it's good to get validation.
# Posted on February 20th 2010 by Hup
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
No worries, Hup. I had a bit of a voyage of discovery too. It puzzles me that no-one had been discussing blowing approach(s) used by Irish fluters - it seems an important issue to me, so I've been trying to promote discussion. Seems to be starting to succeed!
Terry
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by Terry McGee
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
Thanks for everything Terry. I am most grateful to hear there are people other than myself sustained by an abiding sense of tragedy.
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: What's the key of a flute ?
Many of my antique German or American flutes in the German style seem to be built for "diapson normal," A=435. They are great for what they are, but on eBay you'll be lucky to get a seller who can test an old flute, often the pads are leaky so it's non-functioning in the first place, making buying old instruments like these a crapshoot if you want something in modern tuning. As others say the English instruments can be all over the place.
# Posted on February 21st 2010 by KLR