I was introduced the the site recently. The last week or so I've been reading the discussion board trying to learn what I can from the discussions. After getting familliar it seemed about time to formally join up to actually participate in the discussions.
I am a classically trained viola player from Texas, and played in orchestra from middle school up through college. My first taste of traditional celtic music was back around '00 when a cellist friend was teaching got a tune book from Portland Oregon, and we were working up a few songs as a cello/viola pair. We even had an idea of becoming a group and calling ourselves "the fiddles kin". (I can only imagine what some purists would think about that)
Recently I was invited into a session group here in central texas, and it's been a blast so far. This time I'm using my real fiddle, of course. So I'm finally taking my first few steps into becomming a real ITM player.
If anyone has a few good links to some sites or threads about specific fiddle techniques and ornaments, that'd be great. I'm trying to learn more about how people play cuts, rolls, and the like, but the search function isn't helping me as much as I'd like.
First thing I'd suggest is start listening to all the ITM recordings you can get your hands on. Listen to all the different instruments, not just fiddlers. Listen to flute, whistle, box, harp, pipes, everything you can find. Listen to solo players, duos, trios full on raging sessions of a billion(sarcasm)and singers. Listening is essential to playing it. The more you familiarize yourself with how it sounds, the more success you will have.
Do a search using words like 'fiddle' 'learning' 'tuition', etc. There are quite a few that also deal with specific technique, but if you search you'll find the main recommended books. Here's one of the most recent threads that touched on that ~
As is often said, the problem with having a long history with one form of music is to not realize that one still has to 'begin' when taking on a different one. Here's a thread that touches on that some, but there are many more discussing the problems that can be associated with classical training when coming to a different tradition. This is also a recent addition here ~
I've seen and heard it over and over, "LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN!" That's my biggest problem right now, there's little to no traditional music in my music library, and there's not much personal time to go and hear it live. Looking around for artists to listen to I'm allready getting familliar with the names like Peoples and McGuire.
Earlier today I was reading an interview from a well known fiddler, (interview w' dale russ, on irishfiddle.com) the and mentioned how playing with pipes had a big influence on his style. So I can really see how listening to the stylings on different instruments can be important.
As far as letting go of classical training, I've spent more time off than on the last 7 years, which seems to help me ease into fiddling better. The other fiddler in out group passed on a saying how "playing fiddle and playing classical violin is like playing two different instruments", and it makes perfect sense.
VlaMike, there's plenty of free listens on YouTube, such as the recent contributions on the music of Donegal and the fiddling of Johnny Doherty. Some now out of circulation LPs are now available for download online as well. If you spend a little time in the 'Links' you'll find some prize sources for priceless listens, MP3 compression aside.
Dale also has a nice DVD out on playing the fiddle. People are drawn to different influences, some to the pipes, some to the concertina, though their instrument is not the same. That is part of tradition too, and part of what keeps it alive and moving forward, little adaptations. But also, some very fine traditional musicians over the wide expanse of time and space use very little ornamentation but have tremendous lift and interest in their playing, making your feet twitch and awakening the instinct to dance. Not everybody chooses or chose to use rolls, for one example with regards to the bowed string...
Maybe it's just my personal bias, though I think it is a good idea to keep a D whistle handy. Small, simple, & many of the tunes can be learnt on one. I recommend them to everyone, regardless of which instrument they play most of the time (or which they play in session).
Probably giving myself away but even though I thought of Tommy Peoples, when I read the, I can't resist saying, "Listen to that Matt Molloy!"
;)
'So I'm finally taking my first few steps into becoming a real ITM player.'
Sorry, but, no, you're not! You're just someone with no direct connection to Irish culture (well, you haven't stated any) who is learning how to play some tunes on the fiddle. Apologies for being blunt, but it's best to keep these things in perspective.
@Floss, considering I wasn't born and raised in Ireland it's still nice to be able to go to a session and learn to enjoy and play the music. Which in my humble opinion is what it's all about.
In no way can I really call myself a genuine ITM player, there's something special about those who grew up in Ireland playing and going to ceili and the like. Not to mention the road to becomming a good musician of any kind takes lot of time, work, love, and dedication. None of which I could really prove right now, but every journey begins somewhere, and the more Ive been learning the more I would like to play this music and play it well.
Mike, go to the Comhaltas web site (http://comhaltas.ie/) and listen to all the audio files and watch the vids there. That's a good start. Also search YouTube for "fiddle" and any (all) of the following: Paddy Glackin, Kevin Burke, Tommy Peoples, Frankie Gavin, Ciaran Tourish, Paddy Canny, James Kelly, John Kelly, Maire Breathnach, Brid Harper, Liz and Yvonne Kane, Oisin MacDiarmada, Martin Hayes, and Sean Smyth.
And here are some threads that discuss some of the twiddly bits on fiddle:
With close listening to good Irish fiddlers, reading those old threads may help you understand what you're hearing and some of the details of how to do rolls and bowed triplets.
Also, get on iTunes and buy a few cds. You'll get a lot of learning and inspiration from:
Gerry O'Connor "Journeyman"
Paddy Glackin and Paddy Keenan "Doublin"
Kevin Burke "If the Cap Fits"
Liz and Yvonne Kane "The Well Tempered Bow" and "Under the Diamond"
Ben Lennon "Rossinver Braes"
Tommy Peoples "Waiting for a Call"
John Carty and Matt Molloy "Pathway to the Well"
RTÉ One has a good series,'The Full Set'. You can watch old episodes. The 1st one was with Paddy Glackin and Liam O'Flynn; http://www.rte.ie/tv/thefullset/ep1.html
I see you're keeping it to just the few LMH, for starters... Yes, the Comhaltas site has a load of free listens and views on it, including in the archives...
MLH and the rest ~ are those regional videos from RTE still available for view and listen on YouTube, or anywhere. Those would be a nice overview, though the content quality varies, there's some great listens and material for thinking on and discussion... I'll see if I can find the links...
The sadly departed Seamus Creagh's "Tunes for Practice" (find it at http://www.tunesforpractice.com/) is a great resource for learners. It is fiddle, so that's fine for you, although its value would not be restricted to fiddlers at all at all...
It's got tunes that people actually play in Ireland, played in a way that they are actually played, except slowed up a bit and kept fairly clean and straight to make them particularly accessible. Seamus played them like this to help people, not to show off.
Via, Welcome, and if you haven't noticed, a thick skin is required with some folks around here. Everyone has to start somewhere, and it sounds like you have gotten off to a pretty good start. The world of sessions is a lot of fun.
Enjoy!
Floss,a Nottingham, England, man.
Alas poor Notts County,stuck somewhere in the fourth division have just lost the services of Sven Goran[the bonkers bonker]Erickson
Floss, do you know a tune called The Chattering Magpie?
is Llig suspended again?
c. ~ which are those you are asking about? I did a quick search & found this (originally broadcast in '72);
Johnny Doherty - Fiddler on the Road Part 1 of 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiehZZ2tXKg
VlaMike,
Coming from the classical tradition, the biggest adjustment for me was the acceptance that written notation has exactly the opposite role in ITM than it does in classical music.
@ceol: funny enough I already saw and read that "By Heart" thread you linked to. There was also another amusing one about "anti-dotism" which was interesting. Among countless other threads and topics that repeat many of the arguments for and against sheet music and pure tradition against modern changes.
I'm astounded at a lot of the resources I was given. Should take me about 5 years to go through all of them and get back to you all. :P
Thanks again for all the help. I hope that Floss will be releived that at the least, my last name is irish and have a strong taste for Guinness.
Random, I couldn't find them, there was one on Ulster, one on the Sliabh Luachra area, another centered on Clare ~ I think there were four in all, and they might not have been RTE, but they were first broadcasted on Irish television full of comment and musical content by luminaries old and young...
Personally ~ we, my wife and I, and friends, have made some great music that included the other bowed members of the family, such as the viola, cello, bass ~ and gamba. Mind you, the synthesized cello experience was a wee bit too slimy and just plain silly... As always, it wasn't so much the instrument as the musician and the choices they made...
I was quite impressed w' my cellist friend. It takes a lot of shifting to pla the cello, and the music presented a challenge he readily accepted. He was good enough to go play a few performances around Austin, that I remember.
"'So I'm finally taking my first few steps into becoming a real ITM player.'
Sorry, but, no, you're not! You're just someone with no direct connection to Irish culture (well, you haven't stated any) who is learning how to play some tunes on the fiddle. Apologies for being blunt, but it's best to keep these things in perspective."
Floss, is everyone unlucky enough to not have "direct connection to Irish culture" just learning to how to play some tunes on (insert instrument here)? What the f*ck is a "real" ITM player? Is everyone who wasn't born into the music stuck being something else? A fake ITM player? A lowly hobbyist who will never ever understand the music? I think it's easy for someone who grew up in the music to throw comments like that out there, but it strikes a nerve with those of us (well, me) who know we are at a huge disadvantage but are stumbling and falling along anyway, trying to learn how to play this stuff as it should be played.
VlaMike, I used to go to . . . was it Maggie Mae's? . . . it was a narrow hole in the wall, on 6th street, before they expanded. Back then, if you did not have the outside beer garden, most places were hole in the walls. there was also a fun blues' club* (w/screen door ~ on 6th) which had to move to the eastside when downtown gentrified (& the rent went up)
* not Antone's though ~ which moved a few times.
Haven't ever made it out to maggie mae's, which is a shame. But then again 6th street has never really been my thing. I've been down the area twice, maybe three times in the last two years. It'd be nice to go out more, but it gets expensive.
Funny- I've been to Ireland many times. Mostly all I hear is techno and American Country music blaring out of the pubs. ViaMike has as much a chance at become a decent Irish fiddler as does a kid born in Clare these days. Good luck to you Tex!
Just remember, it's a journey, not a destination...
Damn, who let the plankton in here? Where's a real whale when you need one, eh? High Ho Silver!!! It's you who said I should mix whisky with the medication...
I'd rather have llig back than Floss. You got a bit of humour with the grouse at times. Take your first steps Mike. No one can tell you where you'll end up.
I'm still plankton on the ITM evolutionary scale. Well, maybe a bit more complex of an organism, like a crustacean. I'm putting in blood, sweat and tears into at becoming at least a basic vertebrate, like a newt.
So why was Michael suspended?
I'm not witty enough to come up with something as succinct or clever as he might put it, and as a "lurker", I miss his interventions.
VlaMike, haven't you got a gaggle of sessionistas down your way?
That was a trifle harsh, dont ya think, Floss? I mean, if anyone can figure out what makes 'a real ITM player' maybe they should bottle it and sell it! I've got my dollar bill here right now.
Emily, don't let The Tethers get to you. I was trying to be funny, again. But not, at all, at your expense (or anyone else's, really!) Threads were so well mannered when this whole experiment began. The primordial stew from which we sprung.
VlaMike, I haven't forgot you. Just saying hello to the crowd who keep ducking in here.
For those who have not sussed it out ~ Silver Spear is not your average newt, she can wrestle an octopus; or rather the uilleann pipes. I just like her comments.
Why go into this music with the attitude of "I'll never be able to play it right (whatever that means) because I wasn't born and bred into the music and culture?" How f*cking defeatist is that? I have moments, plenty, where I feel hopeless at it but I get on with it anyway, enjoying playing where I am at (well..sometimes... when it doesn't suck too bad) but also have some threads of belief that I'll actually be good if I keep at it. Other people on the internet basically saying it's hopeless if you come into it as a outsider doesn't help anyone. And is ridiculous to boot, since there are in fact people who didn't grow up in "the tradition" but who are nonetheless well respected musicians. It's not exactly cold fusion.
Sorry to go on the off topic rant on your thread, ViaMike, but this sort of attitude annoys me.
Isn't the real point to make for anyone new to sessions, to sit back and listen to what is going on and talk to the people involved. Traditional music from anywhere has its own rules and its not just about the tunes, it's to do with trying to fit yourself as seamlessly as possible into a very special genre.
If you are able to assimilate this and use your sensitivity the penny will start to drop and the tunes will start to come. I agree with Silver Spear that to claim you have to be of a certain blood line or grow up in a certain place is both ridiculous and annoying. If this were true, I might as well give up right now! Believe me I have no intention of doing so.
I also agree about the whisky, Grouse is not good!
Just to add my 2 cents: I think the most important characteristic for anyone who is serious about this music, at any level or from any background, is humility. At a class some years ago with Sean Ryan (the phenomenal whistle playing Sean Ryan) he directed a comment towards my area of the room. It felt like it was directed straight at me, but, in retrospect, I think it was the young girls in front of me, who were great players, but with a tendency to giggle and fidget ...
He said: "You can learn something from every person in this room". And he was right.
I suspect from your posts that you've got the humility thing already, VlaMike. But it's a great habit to get into early on, and the great players never lose it. That's what makes them great. Not where they're from.
'So I'm finally taking my first few steps into becoming a real ITM player.'
Sorry, but, no, you're not! You're just someone with no direct connection to Irish culture (well, you haven't stated any) who is learning how to play some tunes on the fiddle. Apologies for being blunt, but it's best to keep these things in perspective.
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by Floss the Tethers
- just indicative of the inclusive and welcoming nature you have, Toss! of course i'm not at all surprised by your 'music isn't for the people'attitude. This guy just wanted to learn a bit about the music and you just arrogantly trod on him. Still, I suppose its an education in a way to dealing with people like you who blight ITM, TM, music and life itself!!!
So, again, what is it that you do that makes you so special? Wow, you say you write for a magazine... I'm SO impressed! If you think you have some sort of status to say what the music is or isn't or prejudge and preclude somebody for playing it, you're mistaken, and even more of a frankly delusional p*ssant than I thought you were already. I actually liked you more when you were having a go at my band - that was just petty but in a way more understandable because we have made some musical choices so i guess thats going to attract some criticism - than putting someone down who is just trying to learn. I think you are an insecure little person.
VlaMike:
1. Do you by any chance collect hot water bottles that have belonged to famous people?
2. Which wig glue do you prefer?
3. When you attend a session, have you decided which trousers you will be changing?
4. Do you prefer oak panelling or wallpaper?
Well, vla, you've gotten a boatload of comments. You should be all means feel blessed, even if you get the occasional snobbish or seemingly ill-tempered post. Welcome to ITM, where thick skin is mandatory.
I'm sure I will echo some comments, but, if you approach this music with the spirit of a beginner, regardless of how well accomplished a musician you already are, that's an appropriate start. LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN cannot be overstated, in other words, if you love the music you should be saturating yourself with it. You should NEVER endeavor to learn a tune unless the tune is there in your head, that is, you should already be able to whistle, hum, or diddly-dee it. That's the only way you will get life from the tune. Finally, nevermind the provincial comment you may run into from time to time. They are harmless and should never discourage you from playing this music.
Oh, and Happy Camper. With all due respect, lighten up. I didn't approve of Floss's comment either, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that perhaps he didn't mean it to be exclusionary, however much it may have come across as such, and I don't thing the OP is reeling with discouragement. I've gained from Floss's posts just as I have gained from many others here. I understand what you do musically, and I have absolutely no disapproval of it whatsoever, but, in my humble opinion, I think you would do well to just live and let live with the traditionalists and move on. Life is short.
Nothing new to ITM and thesession.org ~ the usual...
"~ approach this music with the spirit of a beginner, regardless of how well accomplished a musician you already are ~" ~ nice contribution Jimmy B
~ and in synch with 'ethical blend' ~ "humility!", and that quote from Sean Ryan...
Ptarmigan ~ good, glad you stopped by ~ and a nice addition to a post that has grown with a lot of us coming out of the woodwork to contribute ~ primarily in a supportive and welcoming way...
I see Jeremy has been reading this too, and editing. My "nighty night!" from very early this morning has gone "POOF!", as has the suggested off-topic television viewing.
Fortunately for me the pain has been abating, antibiotics and pain killers, and I'm in much better spirits today... I even managed to get in a little music playing without grimacing...
You've had a great show here VLaMike, pretty much the full gamut of what can happen in discussions here.
Just to repeat, a warm welcome, and hoping you'll find much of use here, and a good few chuckles too...
Vikings be the ones who laid the foundations for what is now Dublin. Vikings also built Ireland's first city of Waterford. Vikings are where the music originally came from. If you're not Scandanavian, you'll never be able to play this music properly!
AAAARRRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!WHERE'S THE AQUAVIT!!!!!!
MORE VODKA!!!!!!
{Disclaimer!} This is a sarcastic post! Meant only to stir up trouble and shine a spotlight on the issue that great ITM players come from everywhere. Don't let negative trash talkers ever discourage you from anything. They only talk trash because they feel threatened. They're afraid you'll learn to play better than they do! ITM is an artform that has spread round the whole world. It belongs to the whole world. That means, yes, EVERYBODY!!!!!! Play it and enjoy it. LONG LIVE ITM!!!
VlaMike, Here's to your health, happiness and success. Go forth and prosper!
Boatpiper ((~
My point is one more involving the movement of people and the art (music) that moves with them. We really have no way of knowing where certain things first popped up. All we know are the things recorded in recent history. (Meaning the last few hundred years) The spaceship earth is really a small place in the big picture. People have had nomadic tendencies for eons. The music gets spread from place to place. Traditions from one place become the traditions of another. Languages evolve. Music evolves. The only thing that is certain is change. We get nostalgic and attatched to a certain thought or idea of what or who first did something, then sight gets lost for the here and now. All we have is the here and now. Now, with internet, the world is becoming a far more connected community. We have opportunities to soak up vast amounts of culture that are astounding.
Now here we have VlaMike, an educated musician, willing to take a very openminded approach to learning ITM. We have an opportunity to help the folk music process move forward without losing the background. ITM has evolved into a worldwide phenomenon. It's not just County Clare, and Sligo and Kerry anymore. It's Japan, South America, Russia and so on. Fantastic things are happening with the music that will pruduce amazing results in the future.
Random, you're taking my statement about the Vikings with tunnelvision.
What I'm saying is this.
When someone says "This is mine and you can't have it". Somebody else comes along and trys to take it. Things become negative. On the other hand, when somebody says "Here, look what I have, would you like to share it with me?" Then we move forward with a positive future.
Dear VlaMike
Your background in music can give you several advantages in terms of being able to get around on your instrument. If you have intonation and tone and bow technique then you have a great base to start with.
Imagine what it would sound like if you heard a person who had only ever heard and played Dvorak and Brahms say, suddenly decide to play a Bach piece without ever having heard anyone play in the Baroque style. The result would probably be a little hilarious because this player wouldn't have any idea how to interpret Bach with the right style and ornamentation etc. Now this player might not have any idea why you thought his interpretation to be strange or even funny and might even be insulted knowing he had 'got all the notes' played in tune and in rhythm and with beautiful tone.
Deciding to explore another style of music, in this case, ITM is very similar. Without understanding the style, it's possible to play these tunes 'correctly' by the terms you understand and still have them sound strange or downright hilarious to others who are familiar with the music.
The ruffled feathers you will have noted coming from this thread will only be because it is fairly common to see good players take up a new style in the circumstances described above with the unfortunate results. Sometimes people hearing new players of this style can interpret these results as a 'lack of respect or care' for the style that means a lot to them, and can lead to crankiness or grumpiness.
As you have seen however, most will take it for granted that you are as in love with the sound as we are and will happily lead you to all the resources they can think of to help you enjoy yourself and play ITM well. Who knows maybe you'll end up sitting beside one of us someday.
Hi Mike - you said earlier above that you had "little or no" Irish traditional music in your library.
Last year, a lady up in the north of Ireland was selling copies of this double CD on "eBay" very cheaply, and I bought an extra one to send to someone such as yourself.
There's a lot of unaccompanied singing in Gaelic, but some fine fiddle playing from several well-respected players, as well as tune sets on other instruments. If you send me a postal address by private message, I'll send it on to you, compliments of "thesession.org". Best of luck, and welcome to "thesession".
I see that. Camper has a history of butting heads with trad heads here, so I jumped the gun a bit. My problems with Floss's post is the same, but, again, it wasn't that serious. I'm not convinced that Floss was trying to be as exclusionary as his single post suggested, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.
VLaMike ~ it is a wonderful collection and I have mine courtesy of Kenny, and I will never tire of it...
I realized after greater consciousness that I should qualify a reference given above, to the recordings of the Portland MegaBand, that is not a recommendation, as I don't think that big band sound or that particular Hollywood-contra treatment will increase your understanding of this music, except maybe by contrast. It is always better to have few instruments, like one fiddle, in order for your ears and sensibilities to pick up more of the nuances of a tradition...
Hey, no worries Random. Your question is actually a very good one and I wish I had an answer. I have just a very small bit of understanding about Scandanavian music. I'm trying to listen to more of it. I've experimented just a little with it on my pipes. I've studied ITM far more. For every hour I spend listening to ITM, I might spend 5 minutes listening to Scandanavian. I still have a long way to go. Maybe someday I'll have an answer.
The absurdity of a statement about not being able to play ITM because you're not from Ireland is what prompted me to post the Scandanavian thing.
But to get back to the original question....
.....I think it will be many years before you can actually call yourself "...a real ITM player...", as well as there's probably not a real ITM player who would call themselves such.
What you will be, for many years, is a player of ITM.
Maybe a subtle difference, to the public. If you start going on Youtube you will find dozens of recordings of people playing ITM who are absolutely NOT ITM players, and don't understand why.
However, you can also find lots of genuine good trad musicians to learn from on Youtube, because you can both hear and see them, to get the best of their technique, and their feeling, and their soul. Just try to understand the difference.
I am certainly, and will remain, only a player of ITM. But it's great fun on the way.
Good point Guernsey. As unbelievable as Tommy Peoples is, and as easy as he makes it looks and sound, it would surprise me if he actually said "I'm a real ITM player."
Jimmy and Guernsey, you guys are a breath of fresh air. Thanks for your thoughts.
As a student of life, I should never lay claim to that which I have yet to learn.
I'm grateful for all the kind souls who have been my teachers.
I'm grateful for the unkind ones also. For it is they who teach me the most about myself.
Sorry folks, been a hectic coupla days round these parts. Moving into some new, bigger digs and finally all done and settled. Whew. I'm beat. I need to chill out and play some tunes.
Mike, I came from classical music too and your biggest hurdle will be to put your ears first, and not the dots, as I believe Guernsey Pete said above.
The dots are a poor imitation of what the music sounds like.
It's music, and must be heard to be understood.
I had a great, wise, old violin teacher when I was a child who asked me what I listened to during the week.
It was the early 80s, and I was about 12 or so, so I said "Well, let's see, I listened to some AC/DC, some Van Halen..."
He flipped out. "HOW CAN YOU PLAY A MUSIC YOU DON'T WANT TO LISTEN TO?!?!?"
I gave up classical music soon after.
The lesson is the same.
If you want to play this music, you must want to listen to it, and you can't play it with even a small amount of accuracy if you are not listening to it as much as humanly possible.
We love this music. We listen to it all the flippin' time. We play it nearly daily. It's not a flavor or a channel on the TV to check out once in a while. Well, to us it's not.
...if you want to play it well, the lesson from dear old Mr. Clarence is the same, despite the differences in genre.
At least I warn people in my profile that I'm surly.
Seriously, SWFL is bang one when he says you have to listen to this music and enjoy it. You vill like and you vill love it. I once met a trad musician who had been playing for years and years, but had some interesting interpretations of phrasing. Just off-hand, I asked him which recordings he liked listening to (a normal topic of conversation between ITM musos) and said, "Oh, I haven't listened to an Irish music recording in YEARS. I don't really like listening to it."
I couldn't get my head around that, although it did explain his somewhat odd style. How can you enjoy playing music you don't like listening to?
There’s part of Floss the Tether’s post I hope you take as a challenge and prove him wrong, VlaMike. There’s little more frustrating than playing with a classical player or a bluegrasser who’s learnt a few Irish tunes but plays them all wrong and with little interest in playing them right. Especially if they’re technically proficient.
I've played this music for 30 years on fiddle, really immersed myself in it, and I still (and will forever) tell people (assuming anyone asks) that "I play Irish traditional music on fiddle." My family came from Co. Roscommon, and I can play a roll or bowed triplet as well as anyone, stir dancers to their feet with a slip jig or a reel, but that doesn't make me an "Irish fiddler."
That said, anyone with ears, heart, persistence, and a genuine passion for this music can do it justice and be a carrier of the tradition. We make the effort to play with the real stalwarts of the music and culture, we learn at least some of the language, and we pass along the spirit of generosity that came with the music when it was passed to us. Can't imagine a better way to live a life.
I was listening to asession 3 years ago in clonmel, at the time I was only playing a couple of years so I didn't have the guts to sit in. It was a mixtureof locals and people passing through. One fiddle player from birmingham was exceptionall good. One of the locals obviously didn't know a lot of the tunes and said loudly and ignorantly why don't the english keep their tunes with them. A box player, a real charachter who I rarely see angry, curty told him that fiddle player had grown up listening to some the best musicians in Ireland who left for England searching for work and that he had every right to be there regardless of anything.
Perhaps I took Floss the Tehers post a bit to hard but it was certainy lignorant and not helpfull for someone who is genuinely interest in learning ITM and playing ITM.
I have never presumed to refer to myself as a "real ITM musician" or a "genuine bluesman" or a "ragtime piano player" because I know better.
So far as I am concerned, I am a bass player and a piano player who enjoys playing almost anything and everything. When I am at the local Irish Session, I play Irish music because it is an Irish Session--it isn't a ragtime jam session or a blues jam.
I don't think of myself as a real ITM musician because I know better.
I just think of myself as a piano player who enjoys playing Irish music.
I approach playing ragtime and blues music with the same attitude.
I continue to participate in the discussions on this web site because I enjoy talking about one of my favorite types of music with other musicians--besides the ones at the local sessions.
VlaMike, before some other local musicians started the local Irish Sessions in 1995, I didn't even know there were such things as Irish Sessions. Fortunately, I had sense enough to listen carefully to several CD's of Irish music which some of these other musicians loaned to me. Also, when I went to the local sessions, I listened carefully to what the more experienced musicians were playing at the sessions and how they were playing it.
Ya know, I was thinking about it, and the whole phrase that got me and this whole post in trouble, "taking my first few steps into becomming a real ITM player".
What I was mainly talking about was going from a classical musician who would maybe learn some tunes "from the dots" and think it's fiddle, to maybe playing them a bit more like they were meant to be played.
Again, some people may want to make more of that phrase than I really meant. If anything, the controversy has been interesting at least. :P (it's been talked to death allready, really!)
@Twisty: I love your analogy of playing from Brahms vs. Bach takes a different approach. Even Beethoven, Mozart, Copeland, Tchaikovsky, Tellemann, etc etc etc ... is that to play it WELL, one has to learn the sometimes subtle differences in how their music sounded. Which can (will?) take years to learn, and it's suprising how many music teachers forget to teach this very important part of music which can really hobble a lot of students.
It's a bit ironic. The argument over learning by ear versus classically by sheet music is a bit of the controversy in the classical world too. Many classical players can take some notes from those trad players who denounce the evils of sheet music. Learning by ear, and knowing the tune (and style) should be just as important in classical just as in trad. On the other note (heheh) many non classically trained traditional players probably don't realise classical music is also an aural/oral tradition, where the music can't be defined by notes on a page.
I think this is why some trad players around here talk about the evils of sheet music, because people, especially beginners, only know how to play the notes straight. Then there are others are able to read sheet music and play good trad music, because they know how to "read between the notes".
Im starting to come of the opinion neither way is wrong, as long as they are true to themselves and the music.
Hello Mike, mind if I take this in a different direction? Hopefully someone will tell me what I did wrong after awhile. I just found a clip from Transatlantic Sessions with Dezi Donnelly & Mike McGoldrick;
Paddy in the Smoke ~ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5asBavWUFKE
Hoping you, & others, enjoy the jam.
Up above I gave a link for the TV show "The Full Set" One of those episodes has Dezi Donnelly & McGoldrick.
Cheers & welcome aboard mate!
Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
I was introduced the the site recently. The last week or so I've been reading the discussion board trying to learn what I can from the discussions. After getting familliar it seemed about time to formally join up to actually participate in the discussions.
I am a classically trained viola player from Texas, and played in orchestra from middle school up through college. My first taste of traditional celtic music was back around '00 when a cellist friend was teaching got a tune book from Portland Oregon, and we were working up a few songs as a cello/viola pair. We even had an idea of becoming a group and calling ourselves "the fiddles kin". (I can only imagine what some purists would think about that)
Recently I was invited into a session group here in central texas, and it's been a blast so far. This time I'm using my real fiddle, of course. So I'm finally taking my first few steps into becomming a real ITM player.
If anyone has a few good links to some sites or threads about specific fiddle techniques and ornaments, that'd be great. I'm trying to learn more about how people play cuts, rolls, and the like, but the search function isn't helping me as much as I'd like.
Thanks!
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by banshee misfortune
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
First thing I'd suggest is start listening to all the ITM recordings you can get your hands on. Listen to all the different instruments, not just fiddlers. Listen to flute, whistle, box, harp, pipes, everything you can find. Listen to solo players, duos, trios full on raging sessions of a billion(sarcasm)and singers. Listening is essential to playing it. The more you familiarize yourself with how it sounds, the more success you will have.
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Do a search using words like 'fiddle' 'learning' 'tuition', etc. There are quite a few that also deal with specific technique, but if you search you'll find the main recommended books. Here's one of the most recent threads that touched on that ~
Discussion: question
# Posted on February 3rd 2010 by ekostelo
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23732
For the ears the two Portland collections also have CD recordings of the locals digging in to some of those tunes, "The Portland Megaband"...
http://www.theportlandcollection.com/
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
As is often said, the problem with having a long history with one form of music is to not realize that one still has to 'begin' when taking on a different one. Here's a thread that touches on that some, but there are many more discussing the problems that can be associated with classical training when coming to a different tradition. This is also a recent addition here ~
Discussion: By Heart
# Posted on January 31st 2010 by ceolachan
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23710
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by ceolachan
Welcome / Falte ~ and may it be a fruitful association
Best of luck and health, to you and yours and your music too...
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
. . . along the lines of Boatpiper's response ~
"Matt Molloy, Paul Brady, Tommy Peoples"
Submitted on June 16th 2002 by slainte
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/218
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
This is a good introduction:
http://www.frogchartpress.com/fieldguide.html
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by leoj
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
I've seen and heard it over and over, "LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN!" That's my biggest problem right now, there's little to no traditional music in my music library, and there's not much personal time to go and hear it live. Looking around for artists to listen to I'm allready getting familliar with the names like Peoples and McGuire.
Earlier today I was reading an interview from a well known fiddler, (interview w' dale russ, on irishfiddle.com) the and mentioned how playing with pipes had a big influence on his style. So I can really see how listening to the stylings on different instruments can be important.
As far as letting go of classical training, I've spent more time off than on the last 7 years, which seems to help me ease into fiddling better. The other fiddler in out group passed on a saying how "playing fiddle and playing classical violin is like playing two different instruments", and it makes perfect sense.
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by banshee misfortune
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
VlaMike, there's plenty of free listens on YouTube, such as the recent contributions on the music of Donegal and the fiddling of Johnny Doherty. Some now out of circulation LPs are now available for download online as well. If you spend a little time in the 'Links' you'll find some prize sources for priceless listens, MP3 compression aside.
Not everybody chooses or chose to use rolls, for one example with regards to the bowed string...
Dale also has a nice DVD out on playing the fiddle. People are drawn to different influences, some to the pipes, some to the concertina, though their instrument is not the same. That is part of tradition too, and part of what keeps it alive and moving forward, little adaptations. But also, some very fine traditional musicians over the wide expanse of time and space use very little ornamentation but have tremendous lift and interest in their playing, making your feet twitch and awakening the instinct to dance.
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Maybe it's just my personal bias, though I think it is a good idea to keep a D whistle handy. Small, simple, & many of the tunes can be learnt on one. I recommend them to everyone, regardless of which instrument they play most of the time (or which they play in session).
Probably giving myself away but even though I thought of Tommy Peoples, when I read the, I can't resist saying, "Listen to that Matt Molloy!"
;)
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
'So I'm finally taking my first few steps into becoming a real ITM player.'
Sorry, but, no, you're not! You're just someone with no direct connection to Irish culture (well, you haven't stated any) who is learning how to play some tunes on the fiddle. Apologies for being blunt, but it's best to keep these things in perspective.
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by MacCruiskeen
. . .
when I read the OP (original post) . . .
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Hello Floss, any suggestions of recordings for our newbie to listen to?
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
@Floss, considering I wasn't born and raised in Ireland it's still nice to be able to go to a session and learn to enjoy and play the music. Which in my humble opinion is what it's all about.
In no way can I really call myself a genuine ITM player, there's something special about those who grew up in Ireland playing and going to ceili and the like. Not to mention the road to becomming a good musician of any kind takes lot of time, work, love, and dedication. None of which I could really prove right now, but every journey begins somewhere, and the more Ive been learning the more I would like to play this music and play it well.
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by banshee misfortune
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Mike, go to the Comhaltas web site (http://comhaltas.ie/) and listen to all the audio files and watch the vids there. That's a good start. Also search YouTube for "fiddle" and any (all) of the following: Paddy Glackin, Kevin Burke, Tommy Peoples, Frankie Gavin, Ciaran Tourish, Paddy Canny, James Kelly, John Kelly, Maire Breathnach, Brid Harper, Liz and Yvonne Kane, Oisin MacDiarmada, Martin Hayes, and Sean Smyth.
And here are some threads that discuss some of the twiddly bits on fiddle:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/1461/
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/21072/
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display.php/428
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/20702/
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/200/
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/12076/
With close listening to good Irish fiddlers, reading those old threads may help you understand what you're hearing and some of the details of how to do rolls and bowed triplets.
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Also, get on iTunes and buy a few cds. You'll get a lot of learning and inspiration from:
Gerry O'Connor "Journeyman"
Paddy Glackin and Paddy Keenan "Doublin"
Kevin Burke "If the Cap Fits"
Liz and Yvonne Kane "The Well Tempered Bow" and "Under the Diamond"
Ben Lennon "Rossinver Braes"
Tommy Peoples "Waiting for a Call"
John Carty and Matt Molloy "Pathway to the Well"
just for starters.
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: ~ new to ITM and thesession.org
We have Floss in the absence of Llig...
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
RTÉ One has a good series,'The Full Set'. You can watch old episodes. The 1st one was with Paddy Glackin and Liam O'Flynn;
http://www.rte.ie/tv/thefullset/ep1.html
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
I see you're keeping it to just the few LMH, for starters... Yes, the Comhaltas site has a load of free listens and views on it, including in the archives...
MLH and the rest ~ are those regional videos from RTE still available for view and listen on YouTube, or anywhere. Those would be a nice overview, though the content quality varies, there's some great listens and material for thinking on and discussion... I'll see if I can find the links...
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
The sadly departed Seamus Creagh's "Tunes for Practice" (find it at http://www.tunesforpractice.com/) is a great resource for learners. It is fiddle, so that's fine for you, although its value would not be restricted to fiddlers at all at all...
It's got tunes that people actually play in Ireland, played in a way that they are actually played, except slowed up a bit and kept fairly clean and straight to make them particularly accessible. Seamus played them like this to help people, not to show off.
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by Linsey Doyle
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Via, Welcome, and if you haven't noticed, a thick skin is required with some folks around here. Everyone has to start somewhere, and it sounds like you have gotten off to a pretty good start. The world of sessions is a lot of fun.
Enjoy!
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Floss,a Nottingham, England, man.
Alas poor Notts County,stuck somewhere in the fourth division have just lost the services of Sven Goran[the bonkers bonker]Erickson
Floss, do you know a tune called The Chattering Magpie?
is Llig suspended again?
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
c. ~ which are those you are asking about? I did a quick search & found this (originally broadcast in '72);
Johnny Doherty - Fiddler on the Road Part 1 of 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TiehZZ2tXKg
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
VlaMike,
Coming from the classical tradition, the biggest adjustment for me was the acceptance that written notation has exactly the opposite role in ITM than it does in classical music.
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
NPR interview w/Liz Carroll (8:12);
By Melissa Block
All Things Considered, February 24, 2006
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5232287
Her latest CD at the time;
"In Play" Liz Carroll & John Doyle
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1728
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
@ceol: funny enough I already saw and read that "By Heart" thread you linked to. There was also another amusing one about "anti-dotism" which was interesting. Among countless other threads and topics that repeat many of the arguments for and against sheet music and pure tradition against modern changes.
I'm astounded at a lot of the resources I was given. Should take me about 5 years to go through all of them and get back to you all. :P
Thanks again for all the help. I hope that Floss will be releived that at the least, my last name is irish and have a strong taste for Guinness.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by banshee misfortune
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Random, I couldn't find them, there was one on Ulster, one on the Sliabh Luachra area, another centered on Clare ~ I think there were four in all, and they might not have been RTE, but they were first broadcasted on Irish television full of comment and musical content by luminaries old and young...
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ceolachan
~ new to thesession.org
VlaMike, you have yet to meet Llig...
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ceolachan
~ though you would have seen some of his comment on the two threads you mentioned...
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ceolachan
The string family ~
Personally ~ we, my wife and I, and friends, have made some great music that included the other bowed members of the family, such as the viola, cello, bass ~ and gamba. Mind you, the synthesized cello experience was a wee bit too slimy and just plain silly... As always, it wasn't so much the instrument as the musician and the choices they made...
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
I was quite impressed w' my cellist friend. It takes a lot of shifting to pla the cello, and the music presented a challenge he readily accepted. He was good enough to go play a few performances around Austin, that I remember.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by banshee misfortune
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
"'So I'm finally taking my first few steps into becoming a real ITM player.'
Sorry, but, no, you're not! You're just someone with no direct connection to Irish culture (well, you haven't stated any) who is learning how to play some tunes on the fiddle. Apologies for being blunt, but it's best to keep these things in perspective."
Floss, is everyone unlucky enough to not have "direct connection to Irish culture" just learning to how to play some tunes on (insert instrument here)? What the f*ck is a "real" ITM player? Is everyone who wasn't born into the music stuck being something else? A fake ITM player? A lowly hobbyist who will never ever understand the music? I think it's easy for someone who grew up in the music to throw comments like that out there, but it strikes a nerve with those of us (well, me) who know we are at a huge disadvantage but are stumbling and falling along anyway, trying to learn how to play this stuff as it should be played.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
ceol. ~ I was wondering if it might be TG4? Give us a link if you find them, Cheers!
Canúintí Ceoil-Segundo Programa (1/3) {Sanyallana}
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bnuW1Ur59g&feature
VlaMike, I used to go to . . . was it Maggie Mae's? . . . it was a narrow hole in the wall, on 6th street, before they expanded. Back then, if you did not have the outside beer garden, most places were hole in the walls. there was also a fun blues' club* (w/screen door ~ on 6th) which had to move to the eastside when downtown gentrified (& the rent went up)
* not Antone's though ~ which moved a few times.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Haven't ever made it out to maggie mae's, which is a shame. But then again 6th street has never really been my thing. I've been down the area twice, maybe three times in the last two years. It'd be nice to go out more, but it gets expensive.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by banshee misfortune
TG4 it is...
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Funny- I've been to Ireland many times. Mostly all I hear is techno and American Country music blaring out of the pubs. ViaMike has as much a chance at become a decent Irish fiddler as does a kid born in Clare these days. Good luck to you Tex!
Just remember, it's a journey, not a destination...
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Damn, who let the plankton in here?
Where's a real whale when you need one, eh? High Ho Silver!!! It's you who said I should mix whisky with the medication...
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ceolachan
JNE ~ But many get stuck in limbo and don't even realize it...
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
I'd rather have llig back than Floss. You got a bit of humour with the grouse at times. Take your first steps Mike. No one can tell you where you'll end up.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by mickm
TG4
http://www.tg4.ie/
http://www.tg4.ie/bearla/clar/gean/index.asp
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
How is that going for you, ceol?
I'm still plankton on the ITM evolutionary scale. Well, maybe a bit more complex of an organism, like a crustacean. I'm putting in blood, sweat and tears into at becoming at least a basic vertebrate, like a newt.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
So why was Michael suspended?
I'm not witty enough to come up with something as succinct or clever as he might put it, and as a "lurker", I miss his interventions.
VlaMike, haven't you got a gaggle of sessionistas down your way?
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Fanning
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
whats wrong with grouse?
http://liquorama.biz/images/Famous%20Grouse%20750.jpg
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by banshee misfortune
Absence makes the heart grow fonder?
Careful, Michael is due back soon...
He was just being Frank...
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ceolachan
Silver ~ still in agony... But I took up your suggestion to mix the poison...
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
"whats wrong with grouse?"
It's a sh*tty whisky.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
What, again?
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Fanning
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
That was a trifle harsh, dont ya think, Floss? I mean, if anyone can figure out what makes 'a real ITM player' maybe they should bottle it and sell it! I've got my dollar bill here right now.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by john knoss
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
They're multiplying, the nature of plankton. And without the oxygen they made we'd all be up sh*t creek without a paddle...
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
You must be loopy enough to not care, then. If not, drink more whisky.
Though after a certain point it probably doesn't matter.
Not Grouse.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Howdy John. There's plenty of stuff in bottles to give us the bottle to at least think we're more than we are...
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ceolachan
Single malt!
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ceolachan
& the codeine...
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Oh, I appreciate plankton. I also appreciate not being eaten by whales.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
But the most intoxicating thing is the pain...
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Ah yes but the thing is I'm after a bottle of the 'pure drop' ho ho...
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by john knoss
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Maybe what John is talking about is bottled in some cask strength Caol Ila. We can test this.
Gi' us some codeine-whisky cocktail. Might sort my head out.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
They've that for years, John. It's called either potcheen or moonshine depending on where you are.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Hello Emily ;)
Sorry if this is off topic . . . When did you 1st get your feet wet ~ "Can ayone help me with rolls?"
June 18th 2001 by Miss Lonelyhearts
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/7#comment228
* I like the apology,"Sorry for the length of this, but you could do a book and still not cover all the finer points . . . "
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
I wasn't a member of this site when that thread came into existence, but not sure of the relevance there.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Actually the discussion on rolls is on topic, as per my original post. :P
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by banshee misfortune
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Aye, I thought it was, but not sure as it related to me as Random addressed his post to me.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Emily, don't let The Tethers get to you. I was trying to be funny, again. But not, at all, at your expense (or anyone else's, really!) Threads were so well mannered when this whole experiment began. The primordial stew from which we sprung.
VlaMike, I haven't forgot you. Just saying hello to the crowd who keep ducking in here.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
For those who have not sussed it out ~ Silver Spear is not your average newt, she can wrestle an octopus; or rather the uilleann pipes. I just like her comments.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
There goes the neighbourhood, as they say. : p
Why go into this music with the attitude of "I'll never be able to play it right (whatever that means) because I wasn't born and bred into the music and culture?" How f*cking defeatist is that? I have moments, plenty, where I feel hopeless at it but I get on with it anyway, enjoying playing where I am at (well..sometimes... when it doesn't suck too bad) but also have some threads of belief that I'll actually be good if I keep at it. Other people on the internet basically saying it's hopeless if you come into it as a outsider doesn't help anyone. And is ridiculous to boot, since there are in fact people who didn't grow up in "the tradition" but who are nonetheless well respected musicians. It's not exactly cold fusion.
Sorry to go on the off topic rant on your thread, ViaMike, but this sort of attitude annoys me.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Cheers, Random. I like your comments too.
I don't know if I'm much more than your average note, though.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Average note? I'm a D.
Try newt.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Its not via, it's vLa, it's shorthand for viola. Which was my first real instrument I learned to play.
Anyhow, it's ok. I think it's better to let go of whatever argument and get back to the music. Which is why we're here.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by banshee misfortune
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Isn't the real point to make for anyone new to sessions, to sit back and listen to what is going on and talk to the people involved. Traditional music from anywhere has its own rules and its not just about the tunes, it's to do with trying to fit yourself as seamlessly as possible into a very special genre.
If you are able to assimilate this and use your sensitivity the penny will start to drop and the tunes will start to come. I agree with Silver Spear that to claim you have to be of a certain blood line or grow up in a certain place is both ridiculous and annoying. If this were true, I might as well give up right now! Believe me I have no intention of doing so.
I also agree about the whisky, Grouse is not good!
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by eiluned
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Hey Mike, good luck with the Fiddle ..... but please don't abandon your Viola altogether.
Maybe these videos will convince you!
N.B. There's nothing plays an Irish Slow Air, quite like a Viola!
Bruach Na Carriage Baine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgF85B79JhQ
Maurice Lennon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHLp5tWoU_o
The tune - Eleanor Plunkett:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B0LASgR0Jlc
The tune - The Silver Spear:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nD30vy1AMOM
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Ptarmigan
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Just to add my 2 cents: I think the most important characteristic for anyone who is serious about this music, at any level or from any background, is humility. At a class some years ago with Sean Ryan (the phenomenal whistle playing Sean Ryan) he directed a comment towards my area of the room. It felt like it was directed straight at me, but, in retrospect, I think it was the young girls in front of me, who were great players, but with a tendency to giggle and fidget ...
He said: "You can learn something from every person in this room". And he was right.
I suspect from your posts that you've got the humility thing already, VlaMike. But it's a great habit to get into early on, and the great players never lose it. That's what makes them great. Not where they're from.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
'So I'm finally taking my first few steps into becoming a real ITM player.'
Sorry, but, no, you're not! You're just someone with no direct connection to Irish culture (well, you haven't stated any) who is learning how to play some tunes on the fiddle. Apologies for being blunt, but it's best to keep these things in perspective.
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by Floss the Tethers
- just indicative of the inclusive and welcoming nature you have, Toss! of course i'm not at all surprised by your 'music isn't for the people'attitude. This guy just wanted to learn a bit about the music and you just arrogantly trod on him. Still, I suppose its an education in a way to dealing with people like you who blight ITM, TM, music and life itself!!!
So, again, what is it that you do that makes you so special? Wow, you say you write for a magazine... I'm SO impressed! If you think you have some sort of status to say what the music is or isn't or prejudge and preclude somebody for playing it, you're mistaken, and even more of a frankly delusional p*ssant than I thought you were already. I actually liked you more when you were having a go at my band - that was just petty but in a way more understandable because we have made some musical choices so i guess thats going to attract some criticism - than putting someone down who is just trying to learn. I think you are an insecure little person.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by TheHappyCamper
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
VlaMike:
1. Do you by any chance collect hot water bottles that have belonged to famous people?
2. Which wig glue do you prefer?
3. When you attend a session, have you decided which trousers you will be changing?
4. Do you prefer oak panelling or wallpaper?
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Answer all of yhaalhouse's questions correctly, you will be a " real ITM player."
Hint: the wig glue is key.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/3162
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Well, vla, you've gotten a boatload of comments. You should be all means feel blessed, even if you get the occasional snobbish or seemingly ill-tempered post. Welcome to ITM, where thick skin is mandatory.
I'm sure I will echo some comments, but, if you approach this music with the spirit of a beginner, regardless of how well accomplished a musician you already are, that's an appropriate start. LISTEN LISTEN LISTEN cannot be overstated, in other words, if you love the music you should be saturating yourself with it. You should NEVER endeavor to learn a tune unless the tune is there in your head, that is, you should already be able to whistle, hum, or diddly-dee it. That's the only way you will get life from the tune. Finally, nevermind the provincial comment you may run into from time to time. They are harmless and should never discourage you from playing this music.
Oh, and Happy Camper. With all due respect, lighten up. I didn't approve of Floss's comment either, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that perhaps he didn't mean it to be exclusionary, however much it may have come across as such, and I don't thing the OP is reeling with discouragement. I've gained from Floss's posts just as I have gained from many others here. I understand what you do musically, and I have absolutely no disapproval of it whatsoever, but, in my humble opinion, I think you would do well to just live and let live with the traditionalists and move on. Life is short.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
The problem Happy Camper and I had with Floss' erstwhile comment wasn't that he was being a traditionalist.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
By the way VlaMike; what chairs and beer do you prefer?
It's a contentious issue.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Nothing new to ITM and thesession.org ~ the usual...
"~ approach this music with the spirit of a beginner, regardless of how well accomplished a musician you already are ~" ~ nice contribution Jimmy B
~ and in synch with 'ethical blend' ~ "humility!", and that quote from Sean Ryan...
Ptarmigan ~ good, glad you stopped by ~ and a nice addition to a post that has grown with a lot of us coming out of the woodwork to contribute ~ primarily in a supportive and welcoming way...
I see Jeremy has been reading this too, and editing. My "nighty night!" from very early this morning has gone "POOF!", as has the suggested off-topic television viewing.
Fortunately for me the pain has been abating, antibiotics and pain killers, and I'm in much better spirits today... I even managed to get in a little music playing without grimacing...
You've had a great show here VLaMike, pretty much the full gamut of what can happen in discussions here.
Just to repeat, a warm welcome, and hoping you'll find much of use here, and a good few chuckles too...
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Vikings be the ones who laid the foundations for what is now Dublin. Vikings also built Ireland's first city of Waterford. Vikings are where the music originally came from. If you're not Scandanavian, you'll never be able to play this music properly!
AAAARRRRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!WHERE'S THE AQUAVIT!!!!!!
MORE VODKA!!!!!!
{Disclaimer!} This is a sarcastic post! Meant only to stir up trouble and shine a spotlight on the issue that great ITM players come from everywhere. Don't let negative trash talkers ever discourage you from anything. They only talk trash because they feel threatened. They're afraid you'll learn to play better than they do! ITM is an artform that has spread round the whole world. It belongs to the whole world. That means, yes, EVERYBODY!!!!!! Play it and enjoy it. LONG LIVE ITM!!!
VlaMike, Here's to your health, happiness and success. Go forth and prosper!
Boatpiper ((~
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Finally, I read a post before the "POOF!"
Thanks ceolachan!
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Boatpiper, which tunes are you thinking about? There are some very different rhythms between say Ireland & Finland. Take Polskas for instance.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
My point is one more involving the movement of people and the art (music) that moves with them. We really have no way of knowing where certain things first popped up. All we know are the things recorded in recent history. (Meaning the last few hundred years) The spaceship earth is really a small place in the big picture. People have had nomadic tendencies for eons. The music gets spread from place to place. Traditions from one place become the traditions of another. Languages evolve. Music evolves. The only thing that is certain is change. We get nostalgic and attatched to a certain thought or idea of what or who first did something, then sight gets lost for the here and now. All we have is the here and now. Now, with internet, the world is becoming a far more connected community. We have opportunities to soak up vast amounts of culture that are astounding.
Now here we have VlaMike, an educated musician, willing to take a very openminded approach to learning ITM. We have an opportunity to help the folk music process move forward without losing the background. ITM has evolved into a worldwide phenomenon. It's not just County Clare, and Sligo and Kerry anymore. It's Japan, South America, Russia and so on. Fantastic things are happening with the music that will pruduce amazing results in the future.
Random, you're taking my statement about the Vikings with tunnelvision.
What I'm saying is this.
When someone says "This is mine and you can't have it". Somebody else comes along and trys to take it. Things become negative. On the other hand, when somebody says "Here, look what I have, would you like to share it with me?" Then we move forward with a positive future.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
My apologies Boatpiper, just curious.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Dear VlaMike
Your background in music can give you several advantages in terms of being able to get around on your instrument. If you have intonation and tone and bow technique then you have a great base to start with.
Imagine what it would sound like if you heard a person who had only ever heard and played Dvorak and Brahms say, suddenly decide to play a Bach piece without ever having heard anyone play in the Baroque style. The result would probably be a little hilarious because this player wouldn't have any idea how to interpret Bach with the right style and ornamentation etc. Now this player might not have any idea why you thought his interpretation to be strange or even funny and might even be insulted knowing he had 'got all the notes' played in tune and in rhythm and with beautiful tone.
Deciding to explore another style of music, in this case, ITM is very similar. Without understanding the style, it's possible to play these tunes 'correctly' by the terms you understand and still have them sound strange or downright hilarious to others who are familiar with the music.
The ruffled feathers you will have noted coming from this thread will only be because it is fairly common to see good players take up a new style in the circumstances described above with the unfortunate results. Sometimes people hearing new players of this style can interpret these results as a 'lack of respect or care' for the style that means a lot to them, and can lead to crankiness or grumpiness.
As you have seen however, most will take it for granted that you are as in love with the sound as we are and will happily lead you to all the resources they can think of to help you enjoy yourself and play ITM well. Who knows maybe you'll end up sitting beside one of us someday.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Twisty
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Hi Mike - you said earlier above that you had "little or no" Irish traditional music in your library.
Last year, a lady up in the north of Ireland was selling copies of this double CD on "eBay" very cheaply, and I bought an extra one to send to someone such as yourself.
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1410
There's a lot of unaccompanied singing in Gaelic, but some fine fiddle playing from several well-respected players, as well as tune sets on other instruments. If you send me a postal address by private message, I'll send it on to you, compliments of "thesession.org". Best of luck, and welcome to "thesession".
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Kenny
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Silver -
I see that. Camper has a history of butting heads with trad heads here, so I jumped the gun a bit. My problems with Floss's post is the same, but, again, it wasn't that serious. I'm not convinced that Floss was trying to be as exclusionary as his single post suggested, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
VLaMike ~ it is a wonderful collection and I have mine courtesy of Kenny, and I will never tire of it...
I realized after greater consciousness that I should qualify a reference given above, to the recordings of the Portland MegaBand, that is not a recommendation, as I don't think that big band sound or that particular Hollywood-contra treatment will increase your understanding of this music, except maybe by contrast. It is always better to have few instruments, like one fiddle, in order for your ears and sensibilities to pick up more of the nuances of a tradition...
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Hey, no worries Random. Your question is actually a very good one and I wish I had an answer. I have just a very small bit of understanding about Scandanavian music. I'm trying to listen to more of it. I've experimented just a little with it on my pipes. I've studied ITM far more. For every hour I spend listening to ITM, I might spend 5 minutes listening to Scandanavian. I still have a long way to go. Maybe someday I'll have an answer.
The absurdity of a statement about not being able to play ITM because you're not from Ireland is what prompted me to post the Scandanavian thing.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Gone to work
Nothing new to ITM and thesession.org
Check out the Finnish Lanssi / Lancers, a quadrille with some interesting music to accompany the various figures...
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Thanks ceolachan
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
But to get back to the original question....
.....I think it will be many years before you can actually call yourself "...a real ITM player...", as well as there's probably not a real ITM player who would call themselves such.
What you will be, for many years, is a player of ITM.
Maybe a subtle difference, to the public. If you start going on Youtube you will find dozens of recordings of people playing ITM who are absolutely NOT ITM players, and don't understand why.
However, you can also find lots of genuine good trad musicians to learn from on Youtube, because you can both hear and see them, to get the best of their technique, and their feeling, and their soul. Just try to understand the difference.
I am certainly, and will remain, only a player of ITM. But it's great fun on the way.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Good point Guernsey. As unbelievable as Tommy Peoples is, and as easy as he makes it looks and sound, it would surprise me if he actually said "I'm a real ITM player."
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Jimmy and Guernsey, you guys are a breath of fresh air. Thanks for your thoughts.
As a student of life, I should never lay claim to that which I have yet to learn.
I'm grateful for all the kind souls who have been my teachers.
I'm grateful for the unkind ones also. For it is they who teach me the most about myself.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Heh heh. God bless the surly ones and keep them. They often have more to teach than we give them credit for.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Welcome Mike, and good luck to you.
Sorry folks, been a hectic coupla days round these parts. Moving into some new, bigger digs and finally all done and settled. Whew. I'm beat. I need to chill out and play some tunes.
Mike, I came from classical music too and your biggest hurdle will be to put your ears first, and not the dots, as I believe Guernsey Pete said above.
The dots are a poor imitation of what the music sounds like.
It's music, and must be heard to be understood.
I had a great, wise, old violin teacher when I was a child who asked me what I listened to during the week.
It was the early 80s, and I was about 12 or so, so I said "Well, let's see, I listened to some AC/DC, some Van Halen..."
He flipped out. "HOW CAN YOU PLAY A MUSIC YOU DON'T WANT TO LISTEN TO?!?!?"
I gave up classical music soon after.
The lesson is the same.
If you want to play this music, you must want to listen to it, and you can't play it with even a small amount of accuracy if you are not listening to it as much as humanly possible.
We love this music. We listen to it all the flippin' time. We play it nearly daily. It's not a flavor or a channel on the TV to check out once in a while. Well, to us it's not.
...if you want to play it well, the lesson from dear old Mr. Clarence is the same, despite the differences in genre.
Good luck!
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Oh sorry Jimmy, surly time, is it?
Ya daft eejit, how'dya expect to play this music, ya lousy rotten so and so? Frazzle racka muckle fricka sassa frass...
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
At least I warn people in my profile that I'm surly.
Seriously, SWFL is bang one when he says you have to listen to this music and enjoy it. You vill like and you vill love it. I once met a trad musician who had been playing for years and years, but had some interesting interpretations of phrasing. Just off-hand, I asked him which recordings he liked listening to (a normal topic of conversation between ITM musos) and said, "Oh, I haven't listened to an Irish music recording in YEARS. I don't really like listening to it."
I couldn't get my head around that, although it did explain his somewhat odd style. How can you enjoy playing music you don't like listening to?
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
98.
# Posted on February 17th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
99
# Posted on February 17th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
100.
# Posted on February 17th 2010 by Dick Miles
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Thanks anon. Is there prize for entering the 100th post or something?
# Posted on February 17th 2010 by Jimmy B
Stand down, thread-padders.
There’s part of Floss the Tether’s post I hope you take as a challenge and prove him wrong, VlaMike. There’s little more frustrating than playing with a classical player or a bluegrasser who’s learnt a few Irish tunes but plays them all wrong and with little interest in playing them right. Especially if they’re technically proficient.
# Posted on February 17th 2010 by fidkid
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Well said Guernsey Pete.
I've played this music for 30 years on fiddle, really immersed myself in it, and I still (and will forever) tell people (assuming anyone asks) that "I play Irish traditional music on fiddle." My family came from Co. Roscommon, and I can play a roll or bowed triplet as well as anyone, stir dancers to their feet with a slip jig or a reel, but that doesn't make me an "Irish fiddler."
That said, anyone with ears, heart, persistence, and a genuine passion for this music can do it justice and be a carrier of the tradition. We make the effort to play with the real stalwarts of the music and culture, we learn at least some of the language, and we pass along the spirit of generosity that came with the music when it was passed to us. Can't imagine a better way to live a life.
# Posted on February 17th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
I was listening to asession 3 years ago in clonmel, at the time I was only playing a couple of years so I didn't have the guts to sit in. It was a mixtureof locals and people passing through. One fiddle player from birmingham was exceptionall good. One of the locals obviously didn't know a lot of the tunes and said loudly and ignorantly why don't the english keep their tunes with them. A box player, a real charachter who I rarely see angry, curty told him that fiddle player had grown up listening to some the best musicians in Ireland who left for England searching for work and that he had every right to be there regardless of anything.
Perhaps I took Floss the Tehers post a bit to hard but it was certainy lignorant and not helpfull for someone who is genuinely interest in learning ITM and playing ITM.
# Posted on February 17th 2010 by premier
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
"curtly told him"
"ignorant" , although Llignorant wasn't too far wrong
# Posted on February 17th 2010 by premier
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
I hat eit when I type to fats.
# Posted on February 17th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
I have never presumed to refer to myself as a "real ITM musician" or a "genuine bluesman" or a "ragtime piano player" because I know better.
So far as I am concerned, I am a bass player and a piano player who enjoys playing almost anything and everything. When I am at the local Irish Session, I play Irish music because it is an Irish Session--it isn't a ragtime jam session or a blues jam.
I don't think of myself as a real ITM musician because I know better.
I just think of myself as a piano player who enjoys playing Irish music.
I approach playing ragtime and blues music with the same attitude.
I continue to participate in the discussions on this web site because I enjoy talking about one of my favorite types of music with other musicians--besides the ones at the local sessions.
VlaMike, before some other local musicians started the local Irish Sessions in 1995, I didn't even know there were such things as Irish Sessions. Fortunately, I had sense enough to listen carefully to several CD's of Irish music which some of these other musicians loaned to me. Also, when I went to the local sessions, I listened carefully to what the more experienced musicians were playing at the sessions and how they were playing it.
# Posted on February 17th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Ya know, I was thinking about it, and the whole phrase that got me and this whole post in trouble, "taking my first few steps into becomming a real ITM player".
What I was mainly talking about was going from a classical musician who would maybe learn some tunes "from the dots" and think it's fiddle, to maybe playing them a bit more like they were meant to be played.
Again, some people may want to make more of that phrase than I really meant. If anything, the controversy has been interesting at least. :P (it's been talked to death allready, really!)
@Twisty: I love your analogy of playing from Brahms vs. Bach takes a different approach. Even Beethoven, Mozart, Copeland, Tchaikovsky, Tellemann, etc etc etc ... is that to play it WELL, one has to learn the sometimes subtle differences in how their music sounded. Which can (will?) take years to learn, and it's suprising how many music teachers forget to teach this very important part of music which can really hobble a lot of students.
It's a bit ironic. The argument over learning by ear versus classically by sheet music is a bit of the controversy in the classical world too. Many classical players can take some notes from those trad players who denounce the evils of sheet music. Learning by ear, and knowing the tune (and style) should be just as important in classical just as in trad. On the other note (heheh) many non classically trained traditional players probably don't realise classical music is also an aural/oral tradition, where the music can't be defined by notes on a page.
I think this is why some trad players around here talk about the evils of sheet music, because people, especially beginners, only know how to play the notes straight. Then there are others are able to read sheet music and play good trad music, because they know how to "read between the notes".
Im starting to come of the opinion neither way is wrong, as long as they are true to themselves and the music.
# Posted on February 17th 2010 by banshee misfortune
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Hello Mike, mind if I take this in a different direction? Hopefully someone will tell me what I did wrong after awhile. I just found a clip from Transatlantic Sessions with Dezi Donnelly & Mike McGoldrick;
Paddy in the Smoke ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5asBavWUFKE
Hoping you, & others, enjoy the jam.
Up above I gave a link for the TV show "The Full Set" One of those episodes has Dezi Donnelly & McGoldrick.
Cheers & welcome aboard mate!
# Posted on February 17th 2010 by Ben Steen
The Full Set ~ Series 1 episode 2
Mike McGoldrick & Dezi Donnelly
http://www.rte.ie/tv/thefullset/ep2.html
# Posted on February 17th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Hi, I'm new to ITM and thesession.org
Thanks a lot Random, you've been lots of help.
# Posted on February 18th 2010 by banshee misfortune