my left ear has developed a ringing that wont stop. I suppose it's time for ear plugs? I am quite young and try to be good about wearing them, but sometimes concerts catch you buy surprise. Does anyone know how "loud" things need to be for it to ear damage to happen? How does it affect ones musicianship when ear damage does occur? Whats up with concerts being so loud these days? Sessions dont seem so bad cause they are usually not on stage with speakers, concerts though? I saw natalie macmaster, and was surprised by the volume. What else is NO ONE seems to wear ear plugs EVER, including a lot of the musicians on stage. They are also usually not available for sale at the venue. Complaints? Comments? Reasons for the insane "inflation" in decibels?
Give it four or five weeks to settle down before you see a doc about the possibility of tinnitus. You'll have to see a specialist and have lots of tests. I've had rip-roaring tinnitus for twenty years and I'm still here and I refuse to let it get me down.
First thing - if you go to a concert and your ears hurt or you have trouble hearing afterwards, it's too loud and you've done some small damage. You'll mostly recover from each event, but there will be some small damage, and it will be cumulative. Obviously, you can go to a finite number of concerts without ever experiencing appreciable long-term damage, but when you start noticing the effects for real, it'll be too late. Make your own decisions.
If tinnitus is a concern for you, you might want to assess your use of headphones. The ubiquity of the ipod and similar devices is really quite alarming, considering the amount of time people spend plugged into them and the ramifications of the inverse-square law.
If you use such a device, I would advise you to set the volume such that it doesn't drown out ambient noise - I know, that defeats the purpose for some, but if you're using a music player as earplugs it'll be very difficult to keep the volume at a level that won't cause damage. If you make sure that you can hear, say, cars going by, then you know that the level of noise in your ears is lower than the constant background, which might be a safe level in the long term.
I've had mild tinnitus that began two years ago. It was brought on by using a pair of noise-cancelling head phones, which created such silence that I became aware of a slight hissing (I thought it was the electronics, but it never went away) that most of us have running in the background. I've heard that if you put 100 people in a dead silent room and instruct them to listen intently, 99 of them will hear these sounds.
At first, it was terrifying. The more I fought it, the louder it got.
Two years later it has calmed down a lot, and most of the time I don't even notice it. In the beginning I was aware of it every second. Now I go hours without hearing it.
You eventually become attenuated to it, the way you don't hear your fridge motor anymore because you're so used to it.
If you've been around really loud music recently you could be suffering temporary damage, so you could wait it out.
There's a lot of info out there, but be careful what you read (including everything I've said).
Tinnitus should be a concern for everyone. Few people who have attended a rock concert leave at the end without ringing in their ears. If you have any ringing, you have damage. Pink Floyd, 1976, My ears have been ringing ever since.
Now that I am older, I can't stand to go to loud concerts--I prefer unamplified music, both playing it, and listening to it. My wife talked me into going to an American Idol tour, and I hated it, because not only was the music too loud, all the teenage girls were shrieking like banshees. My ears rang for a couple days, and fortunately, the ringing stopped.
Thanks for all the comments.I am feeling slightly better after reading your posts. I found this on the internet and found it very helpful as well. I encourage people to pass it on to musician friends who might be having a hard time coping with hearing loss and tinnitus http://www.paultobey.com/articles/how-does-a-musician-deal-with-tinnitus.html
I have started carrying ear plugs in my pursue recently so loud noises can't "sneak up" on me. I truly hope that in the future concerts, especially rock or jazz ones, either turn down the volume or offer ear plugs. I dont think most people realize how harmful loud noises can be. I think I especially first noticed my hearing loss when I couldn't understand people in muffled rooms, and when I stopped being able to hear as many overtones on my fiddle. I suppose I can be thankful I am not deaf though . . poor Beethoven.
Boatpiper, though I am sorry to hear that your ears are ringing, I am impressed that you got to see pink floyd in concer!. What a show!
Hey banana, thanks for the paultobey link. What a great little piece of wisdom he wrote. Pink Floyd was an awsome show.
I'd go see it again too. I've done many other things that caused my tinnitus too. It is very true though that if I keep busy and focused, it doesn't bother me at all. In fact, until this thread popped up, I hadn't thought about it in some time. Months? or more maybe? But, when brought to my attention, there it is, right in the front. I do everything I can to keep the focus on living a full and satisfying life as Paul talks about. He is so right about how to live with it. Staying positive and active. Nobody's perfect though. I still need some reassurance now and then. The article Paul wrote did just that. Hmmm...Time for some tunes, where's my pipes...............: )
banana512, if you are suffering from hearing loss, sometimes the brain compensates by adding the ringing noise. You should have an audiologist check you out. Sometimes a hearing aid will eliminate the ringing.
What you're talking about is hearing loss as a result of noise. In general damage may occur either from sudden impact (short duration) noise above 115 dB &/or extended exposure to sounds above 80-85 dB. Protect your ears. http://www.dangerousdecibels.org/hearingloss.cfm
A painfully high decibel output is not today just the preserve of pop and rock concerts; some modern classical composers are writing louder music than ever before and demanding the resources to have it performed. So over the last half century brass instruments are being made bigger and louder, likewise other instruments to keep up with them - louder high tension violin strings for instance - in order to satisfy the insatiable appetite emanating from the media, audiences and some players for ever louder music (God only knows why, but that's my personal opinion).
Some professional symphony orchestras now have acoustic barriers to protect the hearing of the musicians in the back desks of some of the string sections from the heavy brass, percussion and wind behind them. There have been an number of cases where professional string players have suffered hearing damage because of the decibels pumped out by the brass and percussion. I know a lady cellist with permanent hearing damage from orchestral playing who now restricts her playing, and listening, to string ensembles only.
To follow on Lazyhound's accurate observation about acoustic barriers, the Boston Symphony Orchestra provides high-tech ear plugs to all the members (and I'm sure many other orchestras do the same). They allow the tones to pass while blocking the intensity of the sound. Friends of mine in the orchestra would never walk out on stage without them.
The degree of engineering that goes into these high-tech earplugs is really quite remarkable. It's almost equal to the amount of engineering that goes into making the instruments sound that little bit louder and brighter...
i saw my bloody valentine play a couple of years ago.
during the last song,
i had ear plugs in,
and my hands over my ears,
and it still too loud.
my nose was vibrating from the volume level.
and the bouncers were handing out free earplugs ..........!!!!????
"Does anyone know how "loud" things need to be for it to ear damage to happen?"
Yes. It is astonishingly low. A fairly loud session, a crowded bar - these are the noise levels at which damage may begin.
If you would have to shout to hold a conversation, then you are up to the level where damage may occur.
If you're ever in a situation where anything is "too loud for comfort" then you are up to the level where damage may occur.
I went to a few rock concerts back in the 70s, but I quickly realised that most were dangerously loud The average band had lost the plot when it comes to volume - what is there about any piece of music that simply increasing the volume makes it better?
Surely if a piece is worth listening to, then people will stay quiet enough to hear it.
"all the teenage girls were shrieking like banshees" (AlBrown).
I recall having one ear ringing after a concert. It was the one into which my girlfiriend had said "CAN WE GO PLEASE. ITS TOO LOUD"
No it doesn't seem to work that way, other than in a small intimate setting. I can remember a Martin Hayes concert where you could have heard a pin drop at times. In larger venues, though, you need a reasonable volume to reach the back of the hall. As soon as that happens you can guarantee that there will be a fair percentage of idiots who think it's ok to hold a conversation throughout. And the louder the band gets the louder they shout at each other.
What you're hearing is the firing of neurons in your auditory nerve. Your cerebral cortex hears this and translates it into audible sound (it's all to do with the flight or fight response) which it alerts you too. Initially this means you end up listening to it, and classify it as a threat which means you take even more notice of it. Eventually you realise it's not a threat and you habituate - get used to the sound and don't hear it any more. The fridge analogy is spot on - you'll hear it if you listen for it.
My tinnitus started after a bad throat infection. I went for scans, examinations etc but in the end the way I cope with it is not to be scared of it. I can now go all day without hearing it and when I do I just accept it. It might go away, it might stay forever but there's not much I can do about it - it's the music of the brain.
Everyone has tinnitus, it's just whether you can hear it or not.
Many years ago I saw two of Segovia's solo concerts in Bristol's Colston Hall, a 2000-seat auditorium. Segovia was alone on the big stage with his nylon-strung guitar, no mic or pickup, and 2000 people listening. Every note he played was clearly heard, even at the quietest end of the spectrum.
I've never been one for listening to over-loud music but I still have tinnitus. I suspect that other sounds could be culprits in my case, such as sudden loud noises caused by hammering nails into things. The remedy is obvious!!
ear damage among musicians? hmm, that rings a bell.
mcknowall has cauliflower ears, if that qualifies; then again, he plays the bodhran, well, he makes them actually, so maybe not.
"Everyone has tinnitus, it's just whether you can hear it or not." - thank you Sugarfoot that's great.
It's not just loud sounds that cause it, though they can.
I had a (mercifully short) bout of tinnitus recently. It manifested itself as a little clink rather like the sound of the metal tag on a dog's collar. So for some time I kept hearing a sound like a dog was about 25 yards away on my right.
This was particularly disconcerting as it was shortly after the demise of my last collie.
With all the punk rock, industrial, hip hop and techno I used to play on stage as a whelp, I'm surprised I can hear anything. [knocks on wood] Must be one of the lucky ones.
Now? I can't go to an amplified concert and have a good time. I’ve stopped. Don’t like it. I feel uncomfortable. I have trouble playing this music with my band through a PA sometimes. Usually it's not too bad, unless we do a festival. Even the little city/municipal Irish-American club festivals in Florida rent out these monster stacks of sound and I often wonder if all the families and seniors sitting on their blankets and lawn chairs are enjoying being blasted across the lawn by Black Sabbath's leftover amplification system.
I do use earplugs when we do those, just in case. When we’re in a club or pub with the PA, no big whoop, never need to crank it out that loud, but those festivals? In go the plugs.
Same here. I spent nearly all of my twenties pursuing the rock dream, rehearsing at loud volumes in small rooms 2-3 times a week, gigs, going to shows. Between all of that I was exposing myself to loud music about 4 times a week on the average. It's a wonder I can still hear fairly well, well enough to have gotten into the military anyway. I can't take that anymore. That's why acoustic trad is all I play anymore. No damage there.
Hearos makes some good plugs that I take to the occasional loud event that I attend now. They're called 211's and they protect your ears, yet don't destroy all the high frequencies that make everything sound muffled. I highly recommend them.
Yes, I pretty much agree with the idea, 'everyone has it, it's just a matter of whether you can hear it or not.'
And maybe if you didn't have it when you began reading this thread, you will have it at the end - those of us who have managed to put it on the back burner are now ringing off the hook.
I forgot to mention, about ten years ago I had a droning sound in my ears (though it has been determined that all of this stuff is brain noise rather than ear noise). It sounded as if an airplane or motorboat was always just on the horizon, approaching from far off. I even imagined it was that 'cosmic hum' people were talking about at that time.
My (very astute) nurse practitioner diagnosed it as fluid in my ear (I do a lot of swimming, though this can also be caused by allergies, post nasal drip). The fluid was somehow setting up a vibration in my ear, causing this low drone.
She blasted my ears with a saline-filled syringe (that was something - imagine having Niagara falls or Waimea bay in your head!), put me on benadryl, and I was cured.
I have suffered from tinnitinitus off and on over the years because I have sometimes played inside buildings where the amplification was too loud. What helped lessen the noises of tinnitinitus for me was to get away from so-called civilization and all of its artificial, man-made noises and go hiking in the peace and quiet of a national forest area. I am lucky enough to live in a state where I have to drive for only one or two hours to get to a national forest area with plenty of hiking trails.
If you are hearing sounds that are not physically present, you are experiencing tinnitus. It’s not a disease; it’s a symptom. The common mispronunciation probably contributes to that misconception. It’s not an “-itis,” as in arthritis or nephritis.
There is a new therapy called Tinnitus Retraining Therapy. I don’t know much about it, but here’s a link - http://www.tinnitus.org/.
Modern earplugs do a pretty good job of reducing the sound pressure that gets to your eardrum and the frequency response is not too bad. It’s not flat, but it’s good enough for casual music listening. I like to wear them when I have to do a lot of highway driving (which is every work day) to eliminate the road noise. I just crank up the radio or CD player and it sounds fairly good – better than trying to listen through the road noise.
I've been caught out in cinemas a few times - what is it about the people who run these multiplexes? The advertising before the movie starts is usually the worst - they like to beat you into submission both visually and aurally... I usually make a quick trip to the jacks and get some bog roll to block the ears.
You can get musicians' earplugs, which attenuate the sound equally at all frequencies - so you just get a quieter version of the sound you're normally listening to. I started wearing them for some of our stage gigs - sometimes (depending on the acoustics of the stage) we'd end up having really loud foldback - and in those situations I wear the earplugs. I took a sound level meter (admittedly not a fully professional one, which costs thousands) and worked out that during a loud bagpipe set, I'd had my entire recommended weekly exposure in 2.5 minutes! So hearing damage due to loud sounds is related both to the loudness of the sound and also the exposure time.
The fad for organisational drumming is an interesting one - because on their forum someone raised the question of sound levels but no-one really took it seriously. I'd bet it only takes one person in an organisation to sue for hearing damage, and that's the end of that particular little money-making number!
Has anyone heard of fiddlers having left ear problems? After years of mandolin and guitar, I started fiddle a couple of years ago, and was astonished at the loud sounds being blasted directly into my left ear.
Easier said than done when playing in large gangs of booze filled musicians packed into a pub, I know.
The violin has dynamics, you don't have to play that loud. In fact, you'll find it probably sounds better and you have more control if you don't blast your ear out all the time. Your ear will thank you too!
I have a friend who has played his whole life, in his mid 40s. Bluegrass, Irish, Scottish, American Old Time, whatever.
The poor man always BLASTS it, no matter what he plays.
Last time I saw him, he says "I got to tell you, I'm starting to lose the hearing in my left ear from the fiddle."
Then he proceeds to put an earplug in that ear and play LOUDER than I've ever heard him play before.
Anyhoo...yes, take care with the ear closest to the fiddle!
I second Ed's comment. Things other than loud music/noise can cause ringing in the ears. Something as simple as excessive ear wax can cause it and this is easily remedied. I have had this problem from time to time. You might want to have a dr. have a look. Good luck!
How about a move to reduce the volume in concerts? Instead of wearing earplugs I'm thinking about wearing those bright orange earmuffs that are used when operating machinery. Get the entire audience wearing them and somebody might get the hint.
You're quite right rob - I had this (the wax) a while ago. I was going off to a lecture in the morning and I heard a sound which was exactly like a pa system feeding back. My pc was running in the corner of the room, and I thought there was some weird setting where the soundcard was picking up the sound of the mic and feeding through the speakers. Every spoken word in the room had a bit of feedback on it. Then I realised when I left the house that it was my hearing. It was just that - wax - and it was fine once I got that sorted. I'm guessing the wax upset the ear's natural feedback system - there are muscles within the ear that tighten down the bones to alleviate excessive sound levels, and these work on a temporary basis. Weird stuff, ears!
I've been using these inexpensive earplugs for years, and they're great: relatively flat response, so music sounds natural. http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/er20.aspx
Tinnitus can be a dreadful affliction for a composer. The Czech composer Smetana became profoundly deaf later in life, and this deafness apparently was preceded by tinnitus. In his first string quartet, in which he represents his life, Smetana represents the tinnitus as a long high harmonic E played by the first violin above the other strings playing tremolando.
Smetana continued to compose some of his greatest work while completely deaf (as did Beethoven) and well into his final senile dementia. His composing seems to have been about the only thing that wasn't affected by the dementia.
This is all great info, and a great discussion, but the sooner one with tinnitus stops reading/thinking/discussing it, and gets busy and happy with one's life, the sooner it gets packed up and sent back to where it belongs, to where the sun don't shine.
What an incredibly useless and negative comment. Shame on you. I hope for your sake that if you ever suffer for 20 years, like I have, from an affliction that has the capacity to drive you insane, and fought the good fight for all that time to overcome it, that some tw@ won't come along and tell you it's all in your mind. That is exactly what you appear to be doing. Retract or be damned. Very angry and disappointed emoticon.
sorry folks. Was meant to be an attempt at a pun or whatever; obviously not very well thought out, and probably done with the wrong beverage at the time.
Tinnitus is a real issue, I know, I'm sure I have it to a degree myself, but it seems to manifest differently among people, from what I have read about it. Also seems to be worse at some times than others. I try to overlook it, in the absence of any other solution.
Antibiotics, two different ones to overcome a serious lung infection left me with tinnitis in my right ear. I found out later that this isn't uncommon, tinnitis casued by antibiotics. A close friend has it in one ear caused by agressive use of a cotton earbud... In both cases, while we sometimes find it very annoying, we've learned to live with it. Sometimes I use it for tuning... For some I have read that antihistamines can help, but I wouldn't do anything without a doctor's supervision. Another recommended 'natural' treatment has to do with gingko leaves...
There are so many possible causes of the T thing -
1. noise
2. silence (which was my case, and btw, has anyone heard of John Cage's somewhat famous and controversial composition, entitled 4'11" or something like that - four minutes of total silence, his point being that there is *no such thing* as true silence, that people will eventually become aware of -at the least-the sound of his or her own vascular and nervous systems)
3. aspartame sweetener
4. certain drugs
5. ear infections
6. swimmer's ear
and a few more rather ghastly things that for fear of causing psychosomatic reactions, I will leave out.
Again, my advice is, as soon as possible, after the necessary fact-finding process, including possibly a visit to a good audiologist familiar with TRT and T in general - CAUTION, MANY DOCS ARE TOTALLY UNFAMILIAR WITH TINNITUS, ITS CAUSES AND REMEDIES) - very quickly, get off the subject, and especially stay off those forums, as the focusing on it feeds it and keeps it more active than it needs to be.
I remember reading about some research a few years ago suggesting that alcohol consumption can make a person more susceptible to hearing damage and tinnitus when exposed to loud noise. Also, there seems to be some evidence that alcohol consumption alone can gradually damage one’s hearing. Maybe musicians should choose a different recreational drug.
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/ginkgo-biloba-000247.htm Following up on ceolachan's early comment, here is what the University of Maryland Medical Center has regarding Ginkgo & tinnitus therapy;
"Nerve damage and certain blood vessel disorders can lead to tinnitus (ringing, hissing, or other sound in the ears or head when no external sound is present). Because ginkgo improves circulation, it has been studied to see whether it can treat tinnitus. A few poorly designed studies found it might moderately relieve the loudness of the tinnitus sound. However, a well-designed study including 1,121 people with tinnitus found that ginkgo (taken 3 times daily for 3 months) was no more effective than placebo in relieving symptoms of tinnitus. In general, tinnitus is a very difficult problem to treat."
Tinnitus is difficult to "treat," but the less you try to make it go away and the more you employ methods to attenuate, the sooner you will have relief.
I believe attenuation is possible in most cases.
The noise enrichment device that TRT uses has helped many people with tinnitus.
I meant to say habituation - basically, you get so thoroughly accustomed to something that you don't notice it any more.
Anyway, I'm going to take my own advice now and bow out of this discussion - as mentioned previously, part of the solution is to forget about it, and lingering here has brought it back to the forefront - but I hope I've helped others with my experience.
Chalkboard anyway, here are all the remedies I've heard of:
Scenar thearapy
MSM followed 10 minutes later by Ionic Silver, then Nano-Calcium
Holding your nose and blowing into your ear cavity and then swallowing then letting go (be careful, doesn't work for me)
Ginko-bilopa Garlic and zinc supplements
Ear-Douche
Omega-3 fish oil
Acupunture (the inevitable)
....the list goes on and on
It all depends on what kind of tinnitus you have... if it's just from playing the fiddle it's probably easier to treat....
I've never done the Scenar therapy but I may look into it... I have been dealing with it by always having company and staying active.... but since nothing works really and I can't get what I want (just 10 seconds of pure silence) I still smoke and drink and enjoy life without hesitation.
ear damage among musicians
ear damage among musicians
my left ear has developed a ringing that wont stop. I suppose it's time for ear plugs? I am quite young and try to be good about wearing them, but sometimes concerts catch you buy surprise. Does anyone know how "loud" things need to be for it to ear damage to happen? How does it affect ones musicianship when ear damage does occur? Whats up with concerts being so loud these days? Sessions dont seem so bad cause they are usually not on stage with speakers, concerts though? I saw natalie macmaster, and was surprised by the volume. What else is NO ONE seems to wear ear plugs EVER, including a lot of the musicians on stage. They are also usually not available for sale at the venue. Complaints? Comments? Reasons for the insane "inflation" in decibels?
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by banana512
Re: ear damage among musicians
Get yourself to a doctor right away - could be tinnitus. And always keep cheap ear plugs on you.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by dereksmootz
Re: ear damage among musicians
Welcome to the wonderful world of tinnitus.
http://www.ata.org/
All you ever wanted to know about tinnitus.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: ear damage among musicians
Give it four or five weeks to settle down before you see a doc about the possibility of tinnitus. You'll have to see a specialist and have lots of tests. I've had rip-roaring tinnitus for twenty years and I'm still here and I refuse to let it get me down.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: ear damage among musicians
>> I suppose it's time for ear plugs?
No, it's past the time for ear plugs.
Perhaps others can learn from this.
But maybe your damage is reversible - I hope so. Good luck.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by DaveL35
Re: ear damage among musicians
Don't be so gloomy, chaps. Banana's problem could go away. That's why I said wait four or five weeks.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: ear damage among musicians
First thing - if you go to a concert and your ears hurt or you have trouble hearing afterwards, it's too loud and you've done some small damage. You'll mostly recover from each event, but there will be some small damage, and it will be cumulative. Obviously, you can go to a finite number of concerts without ever experiencing appreciable long-term damage, but when you start noticing the effects for real, it'll be too late. Make your own decisions.
If tinnitus is a concern for you, you might want to assess your use of headphones. The ubiquity of the ipod and similar devices is really quite alarming, considering the amount of time people spend plugged into them and the ramifications of the inverse-square law.
If you use such a device, I would advise you to set the volume such that it doesn't drown out ambient noise - I know, that defeats the purpose for some, but if you're using a music player as earplugs it'll be very difficult to keep the volume at a level that won't cause damage. If you make sure that you can hear, say, cars going by, then you know that the level of noise in your ears is lower than the constant background, which might be a safe level in the long term.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: ear damage among musicians
I've had mild tinnitus that began two years ago. It was brought on by using a pair of noise-cancelling head phones, which created such silence that I became aware of a slight hissing (I thought it was the electronics, but it never went away) that most of us have running in the background. I've heard that if you put 100 people in a dead silent room and instruct them to listen intently, 99 of them will hear these sounds.
At first, it was terrifying. The more I fought it, the louder it got.
Two years later it has calmed down a lot, and most of the time I don't even notice it. In the beginning I was aware of it every second. Now I go hours without hearing it.
You eventually become attenuated to it, the way you don't hear your fridge motor anymore because you're so used to it.
If you've been around really loud music recently you could be suffering temporary damage, so you could wait it out.
There's a lot of info out there, but be careful what you read (including everything I've said).
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: ear damage among musicians
Tinnitus should be a concern for everyone. Few people who have attended a rock concert leave at the end without ringing in their ears. If you have any ringing, you have damage. Pink Floyd, 1976, My ears have been ringing ever since.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: ear damage among musicians
Now that I am older, I can't stand to go to loud concerts--I prefer unamplified music, both playing it, and listening to it. My wife talked me into going to an American Idol tour, and I hated it, because not only was the music too loud, all the teenage girls were shrieking like banshees. My ears rang for a couple days, and fortunately, the ringing stopped.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: ear damage among musicians
Thanks for all the comments.I am feeling slightly better after reading your posts. I found this on the internet and found it very helpful as well. I encourage people to pass it on to musician friends who might be having a hard time coping with hearing loss and tinnitus http://www.paultobey.com/articles/how-does-a-musician-deal-with-tinnitus.html
I have started carrying ear plugs in my pursue recently so loud noises can't "sneak up" on me. I truly hope that in the future concerts, especially rock or jazz ones, either turn down the volume or offer ear plugs. I dont think most people realize how harmful loud noises can be. I think I especially first noticed my hearing loss when I couldn't understand people in muffled rooms, and when I stopped being able to hear as many overtones on my fiddle. I suppose I can be thankful I am not deaf though . . poor Beethoven.
Boatpiper, though I am sorry to hear that your ears are ringing, I am impressed that you got to see pink floyd in concer!. What a show!
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by banana512
Re: ear damage among musicians
Hey banana, thanks for the paultobey link. What a great little piece of wisdom he wrote. Pink Floyd was an awsome show.
I'd go see it again too. I've done many other things that caused my tinnitus too. It is very true though that if I keep busy and focused, it doesn't bother me at all. In fact, until this thread popped up, I hadn't thought about it in some time. Months? or more maybe? But, when brought to my attention, there it is, right in the front. I do everything I can to keep the focus on living a full and satisfying life as Paul talks about. He is so right about how to live with it. Staying positive and active. Nobody's perfect though. I still need some reassurance now and then. The article Paul wrote did just that. Hmmm...Time for some tunes, where's my pipes...............: )
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Gone to work
Re: ear damage among musicians
banana512, if you are suffering from hearing loss, sometimes the brain compensates by adding the ringing noise. You should have an audiologist check you out. Sometimes a hearing aid will eliminate the ringing.
Good luck.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: ear damage among musicians
What you're talking about is hearing loss as a result of noise. In general damage may occur either from sudden impact (short duration) noise above 115 dB &/or extended exposure to sounds above 80-85 dB. Protect your ears.
http://www.dangerousdecibels.org/hearingloss.cfm
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: ear damage among musicians
A painfully high decibel output is not today just the preserve of pop and rock concerts; some modern classical composers are writing louder music than ever before and demanding the resources to have it performed. So over the last half century brass instruments are being made bigger and louder, likewise other instruments to keep up with them - louder high tension violin strings for instance - in order to satisfy the insatiable appetite emanating from the media, audiences and some players for ever louder music (God only knows why, but that's my personal opinion).
Some professional symphony orchestras now have acoustic barriers to protect the hearing of the musicians in the back desks of some of the string sections from the heavy brass, percussion and wind behind them. There have been an number of cases where professional string players have suffered hearing damage because of the decibels pumped out by the brass and percussion. I know a lady cellist with permanent hearing damage from orchestral playing who now restricts her playing, and listening, to string ensembles only.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: ear damage among musicians
To follow on Lazyhound's accurate observation about acoustic barriers, the Boston Symphony Orchestra provides high-tech ear plugs to all the members (and I'm sure many other orchestras do the same). They allow the tones to pass while blocking the intensity of the sound. Friends of mine in the orchestra would never walk out on stage without them.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: ear damage among musicians
The degree of engineering that goes into these high-tech earplugs is really quite remarkable. It's almost equal to the amount of engineering that goes into making the instruments sound that little bit louder and brighter...
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: ear damage among musicians
i saw my bloody valentine play a couple of years ago.
during the last song,
i had ear plugs in,
and my hands over my ears,
and it still too loud.
my nose was vibrating from the volume level.
and the bouncers were handing out free earplugs ..........!!!!????
i now take a trumpet to sessions.
an ear trumpet.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by rumpole
Re: ear damage among musicians
http://www.earinc.com/p1-electronic-hunting.php
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by ʎɹoʇısuɐɹʇ
Re: ear damage among musicians
There's probably a lot of forty/fifty something ex punks could tell you about this.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by minijackpot
Re: ear damage among musicians
"Does anyone know how "loud" things need to be for it to ear damage to happen?"
Yes. It is astonishingly low. A fairly loud session, a crowded bar - these are the noise levels at which damage may begin.
If you would have to shout to hold a conversation, then you are up to the level where damage may occur.
If you're ever in a situation where anything is "too loud for comfort" then you are up to the level where damage may occur.
I went to a few rock concerts back in the 70s, but I quickly realised that most were dangerously loud The average band had lost the plot when it comes to volume - what is there about any piece of music that simply increasing the volume makes it better?
Surely if a piece is worth listening to, then people will stay quiet enough to hear it.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by showaddydadito
Re: ear damage among musicians
"all the teenage girls were shrieking like banshees" (AlBrown).
I recall having one ear ringing after a concert. It was the one into which my girlfiriend had said "CAN WE GO PLEASE. ITS TOO LOUD"
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by David50
Re: ear damage among musicians
No it doesn't seem to work that way, other than in a small intimate setting. I can remember a Martin Hayes concert where you could have heard a pin drop at times. In larger venues, though, you need a reasonable volume to reach the back of the hall. As soon as that happens you can guarantee that there will be a fair percentage of idiots who think it's ok to hold a conversation throughout. And the louder the band gets the louder they shout at each other.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: ear damage among musicians
Damage caused by exposure to noise is not the only thing that can cause "ringing" in the ears. I'd have it checked out.
All the best!
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by ejsant
Re: ear damage among musicians
What you're hearing is the firing of neurons in your auditory nerve. Your cerebral cortex hears this and translates it into audible sound (it's all to do with the flight or fight response) which it alerts you too. Initially this means you end up listening to it, and classify it as a threat which means you take even more notice of it. Eventually you realise it's not a threat and you habituate - get used to the sound and don't hear it any more. The fridge analogy is spot on - you'll hear it if you listen for it.
My tinnitus started after a bad throat infection. I went for scans, examinations etc but in the end the way I cope with it is not to be scared of it. I can now go all day without hearing it and when I do I just accept it. It might go away, it might stay forever but there's not much I can do about it - it's the music of the brain.
Everyone has tinnitus, it's just whether you can hear it or not.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: ear damage among musicians
Many years ago I saw two of Segovia's solo concerts in Bristol's Colston Hall, a 2000-seat auditorium. Segovia was alone on the big stage with his nylon-strung guitar, no mic or pickup, and 2000 people listening. Every note he played was clearly heard, even at the quietest end of the spectrum.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: ear damage among musicians
I've never been one for listening to over-loud music but I still have tinnitus. I suspect that other sounds could be culprits in my case, such as sudden loud noises caused by hammering nails into things. The remedy is obvious!!
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: ear damage among musicians
ear damage among musicians? hmm, that rings a bell.
mcknowall has cauliflower ears, if that qualifies; then again, he plays the bodhran, well, he makes them actually, so maybe not.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: ear damage among musicians
"Everyone has tinnitus, it's just whether you can hear it or not." - thank you Sugarfoot that's great.
It's not just loud sounds that cause it, though they can.
I had a (mercifully short) bout of tinnitus recently. It manifested itself as a little clink rather like the sound of the metal tag on a dog's collar. So for some time I kept hearing a sound like a dog was about 25 yards away on my right.
This was particularly disconcerting as it was shortly after the demise of my last collie.
I miss that dog.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by showaddydadito
Re: ear damage among musicians
Sorry to hear banana, and good luck.
With all the punk rock, industrial, hip hop and techno I used to play on stage as a whelp, I'm surprised I can hear anything. [knocks on wood] Must be one of the lucky ones.
Now? I can't go to an amplified concert and have a good time. I’ve stopped. Don’t like it. I feel uncomfortable. I have trouble playing this music with my band through a PA sometimes. Usually it's not too bad, unless we do a festival. Even the little city/municipal Irish-American club festivals in Florida rent out these monster stacks of sound and I often wonder if all the families and seniors sitting on their blankets and lawn chairs are enjoying being blasted across the lawn by Black Sabbath's leftover amplification system.
I do use earplugs when we do those, just in case. When we’re in a club or pub with the PA, no big whoop, never need to crank it out that loud, but those festivals? In go the plugs.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: ear damage among musicians
Same here. I spent nearly all of my twenties pursuing the rock dream, rehearsing at loud volumes in small rooms 2-3 times a week, gigs, going to shows. Between all of that I was exposing myself to loud music about 4 times a week on the average. It's a wonder I can still hear fairly well, well enough to have gotten into the military anyway. I can't take that anymore. That's why acoustic trad is all I play anymore. No damage there.
Hearos makes some good plugs that I take to the occasional loud event that I attend now. They're called 211's and they protect your ears, yet don't destroy all the high frequencies that make everything sound muffled. I highly recommend them.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: ear damage among musicians
Yes, I pretty much agree with the idea, 'everyone has it, it's just a matter of whether you can hear it or not.'
And maybe if you didn't have it when you began reading this thread, you will have it at the end - those of us who have managed to put it on the back burner are now ringing off the hook.
I forgot to mention, about ten years ago I had a droning sound in my ears (though it has been determined that all of this stuff is brain noise rather than ear noise). It sounded as if an airplane or motorboat was always just on the horizon, approaching from far off. I even imagined it was that 'cosmic hum' people were talking about at that time.
My (very astute) nurse practitioner diagnosed it as fluid in my ear (I do a lot of swimming, though this can also be caused by allergies, post nasal drip). The fluid was somehow setting up a vibration in my ear, causing this low drone.
She blasted my ears with a saline-filled syringe (that was something - imagine having Niagara falls or Waimea bay in your head!), put me on benadryl, and I was cured.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: ear damage among musicians
I have suffered from tinnitinitus off and on over the years because I have sometimes played inside buildings where the amplification was too loud. What helped lessen the noises of tinnitinitus for me was to get away from so-called civilization and all of its artificial, man-made noises and go hiking in the peace and quiet of a national forest area. I am lucky enough to live in a state where I have to drive for only one or two hours to get to a national forest area with plenty of hiking trails.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by fauxcelt
Re: ear damage among musicians
If you are hearing sounds that are not physically present, you are experiencing tinnitus. It’s not a disease; it’s a symptom. The common mispronunciation probably contributes to that misconception. It’s not an “-itis,” as in arthritis or nephritis.
There is a new therapy called Tinnitus Retraining Therapy. I don’t know much about it, but here’s a link - http://www.tinnitus.org/.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: ear damage among musicians
Modern earplugs do a pretty good job of reducing the sound pressure that gets to your eardrum and the frequency response is not too bad. It’s not flat, but it’s good enough for casual music listening. I like to wear them when I have to do a lot of highway driving (which is every work day) to eliminate the road noise. I just crank up the radio or CD player and it sounds fairly good – better than trying to listen through the road noise.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: ear damage among musicians
Tinnitus Retraining Therapy , or TRT, is a valid, documented solution to tinnitus.
And yes, it's a short i with stress on the first syllable. Good point about the mispronunciation contributing to misunderstanding.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: ear damage among musicians
I've been caught out in cinemas a few times - what is it about the people who run these multiplexes? The advertising before the movie starts is usually the worst - they like to beat you into submission both visually and aurally... I usually make a quick trip to the jacks and get some bog roll to block the ears.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by the wounded hussar
Re: ear damage among musicians
TRT is excellent, and I highly recommend the site Bob posted a link to.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: ear damage among musicians
Have you been through it, Jack? Stand up and give us a report.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: ear damage among musicians
You can get musicians' earplugs, which attenuate the sound equally at all frequencies - so you just get a quieter version of the sound you're normally listening to. I started wearing them for some of our stage gigs - sometimes (depending on the acoustics of the stage) we'd end up having really loud foldback - and in those situations I wear the earplugs. I took a sound level meter (admittedly not a fully professional one, which costs thousands) and worked out that during a loud bagpipe set, I'd had my entire recommended weekly exposure in 2.5 minutes! So hearing damage due to loud sounds is related both to the loudness of the sound and also the exposure time.
The fad for organisational drumming is an interesting one - because on their forum someone raised the question of sound levels but no-one really took it seriously. I'd bet it only takes one person in an organisation to sue for hearing damage, and that's the end of that particular little money-making number!
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Mark Harmer
Re: ear damage among musicians
Has anyone heard of fiddlers having left ear problems? After years of mandolin and guitar, I started fiddle a couple of years ago, and was astonished at the loud sounds being blasted directly into my left ear.
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by Jameson Stew
Re: ear damage among musicians
Play quieter.
Easier said than done when playing in large gangs of booze filled musicians packed into a pub, I know.
The violin has dynamics, you don't have to play that loud. In fact, you'll find it probably sounds better and you have more control if you don't blast your ear out all the time. Your ear will thank you too!
I have a friend who has played his whole life, in his mid 40s. Bluegrass, Irish, Scottish, American Old Time, whatever.
The poor man always BLASTS it, no matter what he plays.
Last time I saw him, he says "I got to tell you, I'm starting to lose the hearing in my left ear from the fiddle."
Then he proceeds to put an earplug in that ear and play LOUDER than I've ever heard him play before.
Anyhoo...yes, take care with the ear closest to the fiddle!
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: ear damage among musicians
I second Ed's comment. Things other than loud music/noise can cause ringing in the ears. Something as simple as excessive ear wax can cause it and this is easily remedied. I have had this problem from time to time. You might want to have a dr. have a look. Good luck!
# Posted on February 12th 2010 by rob zouk
Re: ear damage among musicians
How about a move to reduce the volume in concerts? Instead of wearing earplugs I'm thinking about wearing those bright orange earmuffs that are used when operating machinery. Get the entire audience wearing them and somebody might get the hint.
# Posted on February 13th 2010 by All Moldy
Re: ear damage among musicians
You're quite right rob - I had this (the wax) a while ago. I was going off to a lecture in the morning and I heard a sound which was exactly like a pa system feeding back. My pc was running in the corner of the room, and I thought there was some weird setting where the soundcard was picking up the sound of the mic and feeding through the speakers. Every spoken word in the room had a bit of feedback on it. Then I realised when I left the house that it was my hearing. It was just that - wax - and it was fine once I got that sorted. I'm guessing the wax upset the ear's natural feedback system - there are muscles within the ear that tighten down the bones to alleviate excessive sound levels, and these work on a temporary basis. Weird stuff, ears!
# Posted on February 13th 2010 by Mark Harmer
Re: ear damage among musicians
tinnitus is all in the mind anyway.
# Posted on February 13th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: ear damage among musicians
I've been using these inexpensive earplugs for years, and they're great: relatively flat response, so music sounds natural.
http://www.etymotic.com/ephp/er20.aspx
# Posted on February 13th 2010 by mcswiss
Re: ear damage among musicians
H.E.A.R. is a good organization for musicians to know about:
http://www.hearnet.com/
# Posted on February 13th 2010 by GDub
Re: ear damage among musicians
Tinnitus can be a dreadful affliction for a composer. The Czech composer Smetana became profoundly deaf later in life, and this deafness apparently was preceded by tinnitus. In his first string quartet, in which he represents his life, Smetana represents the tinnitus as a long high harmonic E played by the first violin above the other strings playing tremolando.
Smetana continued to compose some of his greatest work while completely deaf (as did Beethoven) and well into his final senile dementia. His composing seems to have been about the only thing that wasn't affected by the dementia.
# Posted on February 14th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: ear damage among musicians
This is all great info, and a great discussion, but the sooner one with tinnitus stops reading/thinking/discussing it, and gets busy and happy with one's life, the sooner it gets packed up and sent back to where it belongs, to where the sun don't shine.
# Posted on February 14th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: ear damage among musicians
"tinnitus is all in the mind anyway."
What an incredibly useless and negative comment. Shame on you. I hope for your sake that if you ever suffer for 20 years, like I have, from an affliction that has the capacity to drive you insane, and fought the good fight for all that time to overcome it, that some tw@ won't come along and tell you it's all in your mind. That is exactly what you appear to be doing. Retract or be damned. Very angry and disappointed emoticon.
# Posted on February 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: ear damage among musicians
Good attitude, sara. That's exactly the way that works for me.
# Posted on February 14th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: ear damage among musicians
"tinnitus is all in the mind anyway."
I'm with Steve on this. Duijera's post is certainly out of order.
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by Trevor Jennings
Re: ear damage among musicians
Fiddlers might get it worse in the left ear, but Flutists can get it worse in the right ear.
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by Bredna
Re: ear damage among musicians
sorry folks. Was meant to be an attempt at a pun or whatever; obviously not very well thought out, and probably done with the wrong beverage at the time.
Tinnitus is a real issue, I know, I'm sure I have it to a degree myself, but it seems to manifest differently among people, from what I have read about it. Also seems to be worse at some times than others. I try to overlook it, in the absence of any other solution.
# Posted on February 15th 2010 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: ear damage among musicians
DD - I knew what you meant, and also see how it could have been misunderstood.
And be careful of that D-P-ing - gets us into trouble every time.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: ear damage among musicians
Antibiotics, two different ones to overcome a serious lung infection left me with tinnitis in my right ear. I found out later that this isn't uncommon, tinnitis casued by antibiotics. A close friend has it in one ear caused by agressive use of a cotton earbud... In both cases, while we sometimes find it very annoying, we've learned to live with it. Sometimes I use it for tuning...
For some I have read that antihistamines can help, but I wouldn't do anything without a doctor's supervision. Another recommended 'natural' treatment has to do with gingko leaves...
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ceolachan
Re: ear damage among musicians
There are so many possible causes of the T thing -
1. noise
2. silence (which was my case, and btw, has anyone heard of John Cage's somewhat famous and controversial composition, entitled 4'11" or something like that - four minutes of total silence, his point being that there is *no such thing* as true silence, that people will eventually become aware of -at the least-the sound of his or her own vascular and nervous systems)
3. aspartame sweetener
4. certain drugs
5. ear infections
6. swimmer's ear
and a few more rather ghastly things that for fear of causing psychosomatic reactions, I will leave out.
Again, my advice is, as soon as possible, after the necessary fact-finding process, including possibly a visit to a good audiologist familiar with TRT and T in general - CAUTION, MANY DOCS ARE TOTALLY UNFAMILIAR WITH TINNITUS, ITS CAUSES AND REMEDIES) - very quickly, get off the subject, and especially stay off those forums, as the focusing on it feeds it and keeps it more active than it needs to be.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: ear damage among musicians
You mean the tune posted here, Sara?
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2399
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: ear damage among musicians
I remember reading about some research a few years ago suggesting that alcohol consumption can make a person more susceptible to hearing damage and tinnitus when exposed to loud noise. Also, there seems to be some evidence that alcohol consumption alone can gradually damage one’s hearing. Maybe musicians should choose a different recreational drug.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Bob himself
Re: ear damage among musicians
e.b. - yes, that's it! Apparently Mr. Cage has stolen it! Better call in the best lawyers!
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: ear damage among musicians
Bob - good luck with that idea
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: ear damage among musicians
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/ginkgo-biloba-000247.htm Following up on ceolachan's early comment, here is what the University of Maryland Medical Center has regarding Ginkgo & tinnitus therapy;
"Nerve damage and certain blood vessel disorders can lead to tinnitus (ringing, hissing, or other sound in the ears or head when no external sound is present). Because ginkgo improves circulation, it has been studied to see whether it can treat tinnitus. A few poorly designed studies found it might moderately relieve the loudness of the tinnitus sound. However, a well-designed study including 1,121 people with tinnitus found that ginkgo (taken 3 times daily for 3 months) was no more effective than placebo in relieving symptoms of tinnitus. In general, tinnitus is a very difficult problem to treat."
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: ear damage among musicians
I tried ginkgo - gave it a good college try, taking the prescribed amount, a bit more to be sure, for about six months.
It did absolutely nothing.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: ear damage among musicians
Tinnitus is difficult to "treat," but the less you try to make it go away and the more you employ methods to attenuate, the sooner you will have relief.
I believe attenuation is possible in most cases.
The noise enrichment device that TRT uses has helped many people with tinnitus.
# Posted on February 16th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: ear damage among musicians
I meant to say habituation - basically, you get so thoroughly accustomed to something that you don't notice it any more.
Anyway, I'm going to take my own advice now and bow out of this discussion - as mentioned previously, part of the solution is to forget about it, and lingering here has brought it back to the forefront - but I hope I've helped others with my experience.
Good luck and best wishes.
# Posted on February 17th 2010 by sara505sings
Re: ear damage among musicians
I'm sorry to hear about this and I feel your pain as I have the fingernails-the-chalboard tinnitus too. Nothing seems to help...
# Posted on February 27th 2010 by fedorastain
Re: ear damage among musicians
Chalkboard anyway, here are all the remedies I've heard of:
Scenar thearapy
MSM followed 10 minutes later by Ionic Silver, then Nano-Calcium
Holding your nose and blowing into your ear cavity and then swallowing then letting go (be careful, doesn't work for me)
Ginko-bilopa Garlic and zinc supplements
Ear-Douche
Omega-3 fish oil
Acupunture (the inevitable)
....the list goes on and on
It all depends on what kind of tinnitus you have... if it's just from playing the fiddle it's probably easier to treat....
I've never done the Scenar therapy but I may look into it... I have been dealing with it by always having company and staying active.... but since nothing works really and I can't get what I want (just 10 seconds of pure silence) I still smoke and drink and enjoy life without hesitation.
# Posted on February 27th 2010 by fedorastain