At the sessions that I play at regularly, I'm constantly berated for the speed at which I play my tunes. Some of the players comment with thinly masked jabs saying stuff like "wow, how 'bout that youthful speed?!" (I'm 17), others are pretty blatant about it and say things like "jeeze, I couldn't keep up with you on that one", and yet others are so petty that they say things like "well that tune must be really easy for box players. otherwise you wouldn't be able to play it that fast".
The main session that I attend has a mix of regular attendees, with a wide range of instrument mastery. Some players are well versed in the ways of Irish trad music, others are new to their instruments, and some come from other musical backgrounds and are transitioning into Irish trad. Everyone always gets a chance to play, and isn't it standard policy to play at the speed that the player who started it chose?
I'm an accomplished Irish stepdancer, and usually play my tunes at dance speed, which means faster reels (113), and slower hornpipes (113).
I know my instrument well (B/C button accordion), and practice avidly to be able to learn tunes that I like, and get them up to speed.
In addition, I do not change the tempo of tunes started by other players, seeing as I find that highly discourteous.
What do you guys think? Am I wrong for expecting to play my tunes at a fairly standard speed?
What? You mean, play dance music at the speed it's danced to? OUTRAGEOUS I SAY! HOW DARE YOU? [/sarcasm]
They think that's bad, they should go play in a ceili band for some hyperactive sets. Sheesh. 113 indeed. Where's the gas pedal? Ha ha.
No, good on you. You're doing nothing wrong. You don't speed people up when they start them, and you start them at the speed you are comfortable at.
The only time there's an issue with people playing too fast is when they can't and they make a mess of it.
From your description, it doesn't appear to be a learner's session, or a beginner's session. If it was, I could see the need to put the brakes on as it's more of a learning environment.
Sigh. They are dance tunes, and should be played as such. Even waltzes should be played at a tempo that could be danced to, unless there is a compelling reason not to.
That said, don't always leave your session mates in the dust, because they can get ugly about it. Sometimes a slight compromise can keep the troops happy, and what does it cost you to do that? Reels are a blast played at warp speed, but they can still have the fizz a bit slower. A bit slower, not dirge pace. The lowest common denominator is not necessary.
"No, good on you. You're doing nothing wrong. "
If you think p*ssing off your mates is "doing nothing wrong" then you wouldn't be very welcome at our sessions. A session is as much about the community as about the music.
If you're playing so fast that you're playing alone then why even bother to go to the session? What are you proving? Do you enjoy currying resentment? Sorry, but there's a disconnect here.
skreech, that entirely depends who these people are. Many, many sessions suffer from playing to the lowest common denominator.
vacoreye, there is an ipod/phone app that has a touch metronome. One of the only good uses of the contraption in trad IMO is that if you tap it at the speed you were playing it tells what tempo you really played at. If they are consistently playing reels at lower than 113 then you need to find a new session.
Personally I prefer the slightly slower pace. Sligo style, if I'm not mistaken, yet I'm a yank so what do I know? This is not just because of my own lack of speed, although that certainly is a factor, but I prefer the sound of the tunes when they're not set at "Bothy speed." It depends on the session. In a very open session, I think sets should be generally a bit slower to accomodate two things: varying ability and ornamentation. If it's performance where the viruosity of the player(s) is on display, or a more closed session, or for dancing, them let 'em rip, I guess. I'm not saying play every reel set at 90, but I think 113 is a bit high for a relaxed open session.
There was my own opinion. As for what you're doing, if you're rightfully starting your own sets and not trying to speed up a set started by someone else, and you're not hi-jacking the session, what could be wrong with playing a few sets at dance speed?
Sometimes I play reels real slow and laid-back and sometimes I rip into them as fast I can manage without f*cking up the rhythm too badly. Can even be during the same night.
I get bored at sessions where the speed is relentlessly fast. It's a lot of work to keep that up all night and I think the tunes lose something (there are a few sessions I appear at occasionally, however, where it's relentlessly fast but a hell of a lot of fun and I like those, but I think it's the people who make it good craic in spite of thrashing some tunes ). 113mpg isn't relentlessly fast, though. I also get bored of sessions where the tunes are painfully slow. It gets a bit mindnumbing. Balance is the best way.
How many of the other players complain that you play too fast? A few? Most? Maybe they lack confidence and your playing 'up to speed' is demoralising?
I have to say that the beats per minute means nothing to me, so I can't comment on whether your playing is too fast/reasonable or otherwise.
Benefit of the doubt given first and freely by yours truly, most of the time. From the looks of vacoreye's additional posts, it appears the benefit was spot on.
OBVIOUSLY, if someone is being a tool, an eejit, a doofus, basically playing fast to show off and p*ss people off, then they should get bent.
Sessions usually like them a tad slower than dancing so the musicians can put more oomph, lift, swing and nyah into the tunes, as opposed to flogging them around the dance floor.
That being said, I'd rather have a knitting needle shoved in my eye to have to play slow reels with no oomph at all in them whatsoever.
Can we get whatever the auld ones have to magically make the right pace every time on those things? Bottled, perhaps? Not too slow, not too fast, but just right, so that you're able to make variants and swing joyfully, yet not so fast that some folks start crying about it.
113 was around the high end at 10 of the 11 sessions I went to in Clare and Galway over the past two weeks. The exception was a late session at O'Keeffe's in Ennis with Anne-Marie McCormack, PJ King, John Rynne, and Maebh O'Hare, where they were usually 116-124. At the other sessions, mostly around 100-108, with one or two sets per night faster.
That seems slow to me. But I don't really think of this music as being "dance music". I know that it is. I acknowledge it. But a dancer at a session? Never seen one. Maybe cuz the session players were going too fast! LOL
One of my favorite reels is the version of "Drag Her Round the Road" by Dervish. And they play it waaaay faster than 113. Probably more like 180.
Obviously, I'm not at your session, so I can't say what's happening, but it's possible it's not the tempo, but the way you're playing them.
There's a few things that could be going on. One is simply your attitude towards the beat - if you're leaning forward on the beat, you sound faster, if you lay back and play a little lazy, you tend to sound slower. If your session-mates incline towards the latter, and you to the former, I wouldn't be surprised to find them hearing your tunes as "fast".
You might also look at the way you phrase the tunes. If they can't pick out what you're doing, they'll think it's because you're playing fast, but it might be that you're playing difficult at a moderate tempo. If you're throwing in a lot of ornaments and variations, leave them out until everyone starts catching up. You'll be amazed at how much slower they think you're playing.
The final thing - and remember, I haven't heard you so I'm not taking the p*ss - is that you might be playing too fast for yourself. I know in my case when I try to play out at the edge of my capacity, it's a lot harder to follow, especially on the box where one slip gets you a pretty bad wrong note. And it's not uncommon for "wow, that was fast" to be a subtle way of saying "take it easy, you're getting ahead of yourself". From what you say, it doesn't sound like this is the problem, but it's one possible way to get to where you are, so I figured I'd mention it.
If none of those things is at the root of your problem, then you might want to slow down some of your sets as a courtesy, especially if you're playing one that one of the slower players is partial to. If you get on the same page with them on the tune, maybe they'll be able to bump up their tempo a little. Who knows, you might find that you enjoy some of the tunes at a slower pace now and then.
No dancers at your sessions, Fish? That's too bad!
We had this little old couple from Newfoundland who were vacationing in Florida this past Sunday. The lady sang us Molly Ban, then later on in the afternoon, her and the mister got up and shuffled to Miss McLeod's. When it was over, they sat back down.
So...we played it again! They got back up and danced again!
Very choosy folks, I liked that. They knew what they wanted to dance to, and would only dance to that, bless their souls. They looked like they were pushing 80.
They also had no issues with our speed. I didn't have the speedometer running, but I'd guess we were in the usual 100-110 area.
Clearly you can play comfortably at a quick pace as evidenced by your Mason's Apron clip. The only question is, when seated at a table with folks who clearly cannot keep up, do you wish to play alone all night or dial it down a few notches so others can join you?
As for the folks who complain after one or two sets - fuggetaboudit - sour grapes by clueless novices. However, if you go on all night well above the speed of everyone else - what have you really accomplished?
SWFL (can we call you Swiffle?) - One of my favorite dancers was an old fellow who would come in with his son, his walker, and his oxygen tank. This, in a bar so smoky you couldn't see the back of the room, and usually so crowded you couldn't get onto the dance floor without a carefully timed approach. But they made room for Howard, and everybody kept an eye on him - nobody EVER bumped into him - and it was an absolute delight to have him on the floor. No great leaping and spinning, of course, but he was having a fine old time. I always figured if you're going to be old, that's a good way to do it.
180? Can you even hear the tune at 180? That sounds insane to me. Just goes to show you it's all relative to the individual session. I've played at sessions in the states and spectated session in Northern Ireland, and even there most tunes were slightly slower than dance speed, at least according to my wife who grew up with dance. Gary's posts seems about the average. I sometimes turn on a metronome just to see what the numbers feel like, and 100-105 seems about what I've heard at sessions, and the local one I go to tends to play reel sets at a hair under 100.
"What do you guys think? Am I wrong for expecting to play my tunes at a fairly standard speed?"
Not wrong, but not necessarily friendly either.
It's your call. Given that you know the other people around you prefer to play a little slower, do you compromise a little on your speed and help them enjoy themselves (and enjoy playing with you)? Or do you play at your own speed and let them suck it up and deal for the relatively small set of tunes that you start yourself?
I don't think there's really a right/wrong answer here, but playing at a pace comfortable for everyone is certainly more social behavior. If you get bored, you could try playing around a bit with variations, fingerings or ornamentation...
I think I may have mis-understood, and others may have as well, just what constitutes a beat in bpm.
I'm counting each quarter note as a beat. If you are counting halfs then I'm slow as molasses. Which wouldn't surprise me. On most recordings I can't keep up. I have to slow down almost everything except perhaps hornpipes.
That's great Jon, love it! I like the wee and the auld dancers the best. One of my favorite memories is playing a house party with Grandma dancing with a gaggle of toddlers.
Swiffle works just fine. I've made enough goofy nicknames for folks on here, I have no rights to complain.
Having a nice time at a session is all about compromise and fitting in. When you get into your 40s and 50s you get to see this. If you're there to show off by playing fast (I'm not saying you are) someone is very shortly going to say something hurtful to you. Enjoy the company, talk gently to the others about what they prefer and leave your fast tunes at home. Playing slower will really show 'em how good you are anyway. It's much harder than playing fast.
I just clocked Dervish playing Drag Her Round the Road
At The End Of The Day version - 120 bpm
Live in Palma version - 126 bpm (which is the same speed that vacorye is playing Mason's Apron in the YouTube clip)
As far as session speed goes, I have spent some time pushing my session-mates into playing a bit faster. I used to get the "whoa, that was rippin' along" comments after a set, but then I explained my reasoning behind it, and everybody seems to do just fine with it nowadays.
My reasoning is that the music takes on a different character when you play it a bit faster. The twists and turns in the tune come faster, and carry more of an element of surprise. They feel bouncier, and certain parts of the tune draw more attention in a catchy kind of way.
Having said that, I also like mixing it up. If you play everything at a high speed, you miss some of what makes this music beautiful. I'll play things slow and sweet, medium speed and groovy, as well as fast and twisty.
But to me, there's nothing worse than music that sounds like it is plodding along. The worst feeling is where you start something smartly, and then the session feels like a dead weight that is dragging on you the whole time.
So I would say that you're probably OK as long as you're not just showing off, and the music isn't suffering because of your speed. But try to mix it up some, and respect the fact that other people have different ideas about how the music should be played...
From my perspective, for every person who tells you to your face that they don't like something, there are four or five who get upset, but swallow it up and don't say anything. So if our Original Poster is getting as much feedback about speed as they describe, then they are not making a good impression on their session-mates. Nothing wrong with taking things a bit slower, gives you more chance to play around with the tune, use more twiddly bits--it is easy to make tunes sound bouncy when you move fast--challenge yourself by trying to make them lively even at a slower pace. Take your time, and learn to enjoy a more leisurely pace.
At sessions I go to, reels tend to range anywhere from the mid 90s on up into the high 120s and occasionally in the 130s. The "norm" if there is one seems to be 106 to 116, give or take 4 bpm.
Just for comparison, bluegrass instrumentals often cook along in the 130s and 140s.
Also, our set dancers like reels at 112 to 122, and our step dancers like hard shoe reels at 116 to 126. But we have one local step dancer qualified for the World's in April, so that may skew our range of tempo a bit.
I haven't read all this but jumped to your YouTube clip and thought it didn't seem rushed, and had a nice rhythm and lift to it. I don't think people would complain about the speed here in Cambridge UK.
The steady tempo of The Rights of Man on your family myspace page is just great for this newbie to play along with and pay attention to what is going on.
Too fast isn't an absolute value, it depends on the mood the tune and the player, and of course personal taste.
Everyone plays too fast sometimes.
I've heard a few players down the years who IMHO played consistently too fast. By that I mean faster than they were able to while playing well. Sometimes it appeared to be a cover for very poor rythm or phrasing, perhaps the player hadn't even considered these aspects of the tune as they appeared only to be concerned with speed and very happy with their playing and quite taken with their speediness . (I'm thinking of one player in particular, and personally I thought this player was awful and probably would have been just as bad playing more slowly).
More commonly I've known younger players caught up in the excitement of playing fast. Often these have been very good players, but their playing has shone so much more when made to slow down a little when they are able to play with better swing and emphasis.
Sometimes it takes other players to point out that someone is playing too fast their ability, that other aspects of their playing is suffereing through an over-emphasis on speed. It can be difficult to hear this in your own playing, especially in those teenage years
There is also the separate question of playing too fast for a given session even if within the players ability. If this is done relentlessly can be antisocial and indicative of the player being more interested in displaying their ability (real or otherwise) at the expense excluding the main body of the session. In which case it is as well to remember that a good session isn't just about the music.
I hate the way young players, and some not so young, tear into the music. It does nothing for me at all. Anyway my arthritic fingers can't keep up, so I suppose it really is an age thing.
But surely it all depends on the particular tunes. Play one too slow and it loses its impact......Play one too fast and the tune gets ruined.
A quick example:
The Merry Blacksmith....nice and lively.
Mayor Harrison's Fedora...nice and steady, but certainly not as fast as the Merry Blacksmith. Consequently I'm inclined to put the fast tunes together in a set, and the slow tunes together in a set. That works for me.
Personally, I would never start a reel faster than about 108. I could keep up with speeds up to, say 120bpm, on a good night, but I couldn't put in much in the way of ornamentation and lift at those speeds. Anything faster than that, for me, is ridiculous - not that wouldn't enjoy listening to someone play at 130, if they're making good music of it. But I would get frustrated if I turned up at a session expecting to play and found it much too fast. I accept, of course, that a whole session should not have to pander to *my* limitations - I am happy to take the speed a notch or two above what I am most comfortable with in order to play tunes with people. But I think that, similarly, it is necessary for faster players to be aware of the speed preferences of others. A session is a social situation and, like any kind of social situation, has to be built on compromises and finding common ground; when we socialize, we find the common points in our personalities, we adjust our language and accent to facilitate communication, dress in an appropriate manner to the situation etc. Playing in a session is no different.
So, vacoreye, you could, as Kenny suggests, just ditch the slower session and go to the one where they play at your preferred speed. But if, as you say, many of the players at the slower session enjoy your playing, then it would be a shame to deprive them (and yourself - it's good to be appreciated) of the pleasure , So, perhaps it wouldn't hurt to slow down *a little* on *some* tunes, to allow everyone to play along comfortably. If you are used to playing fast, then playing (*playing*, that is, as an end in itself - not practising or learning tunes) slowly is a skill to be learned, and ultimately, can only make you a better musician.
do people really have these numbers in mind when playing? I have no idea what bpm I play at, nor am I really all that bothered what the numbers would be.
i've never been able to count and play at the same time, I don't know how people can do that and still hear, enjoy the tune. Nor do I use mnemonics for tune typeswhen playing, although some tunes I hear the same words over again when playing:
e.g.
"The wind that shakes the barley,
the wind that shakes the barley,
the wind that shakes the barley,
the wind that shakes the barley.
the wind that, the wind that,
the wind that shakes the barley
the wind that, the wind,
the wind that shakes the barley"
e.g.
"deedle-leedle,deedle-leedle
deedle-leedle,deedle-leedle
deedle-leedle,deedle-leedle
Roll me in the rye-grass"
to name but two
Some days I can't even suck mints and play. That's me, so crap at multi-tasking I can only suck at one thing at once.
Its not speed, its the lilt that matters. Fast can be just as tasteless and bland as slow. Its all about expression, subtle variation, lean and sway. This is why I stress these aspects of the tunes over ornamentation. Ornaments are grand, but they are of minuscule importance in relation to the feel and lilt of the music. Get the Basics sorted and the extras sort them selves out over time.
The art is to make beautiful music with simplicity of approach.
You said in your last post that your performance speed is faster than your session speed. That sounds like it should be. I don't see that you're doing anything wrong, it just may be a situation where the group is just not up to playing at performance/dance speed. It's a session. I certainly understand if you prefer to play at dance speed, but it sounds to me like you should probably just slow it down a bit, don't go to the point of the lowest common denominator, but you should probably put in some small effort to find that happy place between your desires and theirs. Perhaps there are a couple of folks in the group you trust whose input you can get in that regard?
If you find you are having to play too fast because some show off is murdering a tune by doing so and you are keeping up with them you may find you willl have to change your trousers. That's why stout brown cordoroys are especially appropriate for the 'quck sessions'.
If it's a mythical Eb session then where your white cotton yachting strides.
If you are playing for dancers, you must play at the correct speed for the dance in question. However, when there are no dancers to consider (i.e. at a session) the following would normally apply:
1) If you you start a tuneset, the other musicians should follow you at your chosen speed. Unless of course you are playing ridiculously slowly, in which case you shouldn't complain if others try to speed it up.
2) if someone else starts a tuneset, at plays at a speed to fast for you to follow, tough luck.
"I have no idea what bpm I play at, nor am I really all that bothered what the numbers would be."
Nor me. I just found an online metronome, set it to 113bpm and tried to play along, just so I knew what people here were talking about.
But if people want to write about how fast they should or shouldn't or can or can't play, expressions such as "fast" or "a hundred miles an hour" aren't particularly helpful. Yes, it can start to look a bit geeky, discussing precise numbers of beats beats per minute, but it serves a simple purpose where you can't actually hear each other play. If someone were to start talking bpm in a real life playing situation, I'd be very disturbed indeed.
Some might consider pitchforks if they link on the following . . . a multi-metronomic device called the Trinome . . .This sought-after device has long since been out of production, and even appears in the Metronome museum! . . . http://www.luckymedia.com/Quadranome/
C'mon, you all know SWFL is funnier than me.
Like everyone else, I don't know what's really going on in your session. And of course there is no "right" speed to play a tune, no "right" way to run a session etc. Your session mates might be useless idiots, or they might be tactfully trying to tell you something you need to learn. I cannot tell.
But I looked at your youtube clip and one thing seems possible. Probably, from the look of the clip, you are getting through the tunes "correctly", on time and without many mistakes. But to your tunes have any lift? Any character? Do they dance? Do they have any life? Are they worth listening to? Do they inspire the listener? Do they have pulse? Drive? Or are you just producing a boring stream of fast notes?
These are just questions. Any opinion I may have as to their answers is my own.
You've got some good chops going for you, but you sound like you're playing just a tad faster than you ought to. What I mean is that you're occasionally slipping out of the rhythmic groove. This usually means you need to slow down and concentrate on lift, feeling, staying in the rhythmic groove. A good way to approach it is to set an easy (but not draggy) tempo and listen very closely to the other players. Listen for the notes that want to be accentuated and try to hit the accents precisely with the other players. When you're all listening and hitting those accents together, it all starts to settle into a groove and become easier, more natural. And speed becomes less of an issue.
Playing fast for dancers is a must, you do loose a sense of the melody, people who aren't that intrested in trad would find listening to the an enseble like the Chieftains or Danu than a Ceili Band playing for dancers
A nice speed is that Noel Hill Tony Linnane album
Speed schmeed, Do you give good groove??? That's all that matters. Groove or lilt or lift or swing, it's different than rhythm and it's different than speed. It's what makes your music irresistibly toe tapping if you have it, or an undifferentiated, blurred smear of notes if you don't have it. Check out what banjacki says, and look out into the audience next time you play your fast tunes. Are they tapping, twitching, nodding along to the groove you're laying down? or not?
If you have dancers or are playing a dance, then by all means play the tunes at "dance speed." If not, then why? Many tunes need a bit of speed to make them pop, but the faster you play, the less ornamentation is possible (for players who are mere mortals). Sessions are social events, not competitive races, or at least they should be, IMHO.
i just watched your youtube and while i will say that i would run through a plate-glass window to get away from music being played at this speed after about 15 to 30 minutes of it, you do have the chops to be playing at that tempo, so that's definitely not an issue as it all too often is......moreover, i actually don't think this is hyper-fast. it's like a very brisk dance speed. those staccato ornaments make it sound more hyper than it really is. they're not what i like, but you do them really well. i was in manhattan for a funeral a couple months ago and used it as an excuse to linger and circulate to a bunch of seshes and i did play in a couple that were this fast and faster. not my thing, but brilliant. the b/c box player john redmond is a gorgeous player who plays very fast in session. i don't think your speed hear is super-hyper-fast. i think that as long as you're not taking over your seshes and imposing this, or ruining other players' sets with this, you should do what you want when it's your turn and ignore the comments. [OR you could be generous and slow it down a hair so that others can play with you, and then find like-minded tyros to shred it up with in another setting.]
Tune speed?
Tune speed?
At the sessions that I play at regularly, I'm constantly berated for the speed at which I play my tunes. Some of the players comment with thinly masked jabs saying stuff like "wow, how 'bout that youthful speed?!" (I'm 17), others are pretty blatant about it and say things like "jeeze, I couldn't keep up with you on that one", and yet others are so petty that they say things like "well that tune must be really easy for box players. otherwise you wouldn't be able to play it that fast".
The main session that I attend has a mix of regular attendees, with a wide range of instrument mastery. Some players are well versed in the ways of Irish trad music, others are new to their instruments, and some come from other musical backgrounds and are transitioning into Irish trad. Everyone always gets a chance to play, and isn't it standard policy to play at the speed that the player who started it chose?
I'm an accomplished Irish stepdancer, and usually play my tunes at dance speed, which means faster reels (113), and slower hornpipes (113).
I know my instrument well (B/C button accordion), and practice avidly to be able to learn tunes that I like, and get them up to speed.
In addition, I do not change the tempo of tunes started by other players, seeing as I find that highly discourteous.
What do you guys think? Am I wrong for expecting to play my tunes at a fairly standard speed?
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by vacoreye
Re: Tune speed?
What? You mean, play dance music at the speed it's danced to? OUTRAGEOUS I SAY! HOW DARE YOU? [/sarcasm]
They think that's bad, they should go play in a ceili band for some hyperactive sets. Sheesh. 113 indeed. Where's the gas pedal? Ha ha.
No, good on you. You're doing nothing wrong. You don't speed people up when they start them, and you start them at the speed you are comfortable at.
The only time there's an issue with people playing too fast is when they can't and they make a mess of it.
From your description, it doesn't appear to be a learner's session, or a beginner's session. If it was, I could see the need to put the brakes on as it's more of a learning environment.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tune speed?
If people are saying you are playing too fast, then you're probably playing too fast.
If no one is dancing, then there's no reason to ruin a good tune. Slow down and enjoy the music.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by skreech
Re: Tune speed?
Sigh. They are dance tunes, and should be played as such. Even waltzes should be played at a tempo that could be danced to, unless there is a compelling reason not to.
That said, don't always leave your session mates in the dust, because they can get ugly about it. Sometimes a slight compromise can keep the troops happy, and what does it cost you to do that? Reels are a blast played at warp speed, but they can still have the fizz a bit slower. A bit slower, not dirge pace. The lowest common denominator is not necessary.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by Michele Sims
Re: Tune speed?
"No, good on you. You're doing nothing wrong. "
If you think p*ssing off your mates is "doing nothing wrong" then you wouldn't be very welcome at our sessions. A session is as much about the community as about the music.
If you're playing so fast that you're playing alone then why even bother to go to the session? What are you proving? Do you enjoy currying resentment? Sorry, but there's a disconnect here.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by David Levine
Re: Tune speed?
skreech, that entirely depends who these people are. Many, many sessions suffer from playing to the lowest common denominator.
vacoreye, there is an ipod/phone app that has a touch metronome. One of the only good uses of the contraption in trad IMO is that if you tap it at the speed you were playing it tells what tempo you really played at. If they are consistently playing reels at lower than 113 then you need to find a new session.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by bogman
Re: Tune speed?
focus, I would certainly agree with you if the OP IS actually playing too fast, but maybe they need the benefit of the doubt.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by bogman
Re: Tune speed?
Just another point, not everyone complains. I'm a "session favorite", and many of the players enjoy the tunes that I play.
I don't play at the speed that I do specifically to annoy people.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by vacoreye
Re: Tune speed?
Also, I recently went to another session (one that I'm not a regular at), and all reels were played at my speed...
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by vacoreye
Re: Tune speed?
Personally I prefer the slightly slower pace. Sligo style, if I'm not mistaken, yet I'm a yank so what do I know? This is not just because of my own lack of speed, although that certainly is a factor, but I prefer the sound of the tunes when they're not set at "Bothy speed." It depends on the session. In a very open session, I think sets should be generally a bit slower to accomodate two things: varying ability and ornamentation. If it's performance where the viruosity of the player(s) is on display, or a more closed session, or for dancing, them let 'em rip, I guess. I'm not saying play every reel set at 90, but I think 113 is a bit high for a relaxed open session.
There was my own opinion. As for what you're doing, if you're rightfully starting your own sets and not trying to speed up a set started by someone else, and you're not hi-jacking the session, what could be wrong with playing a few sets at dance speed?
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Tune speed?
Sometimes I play reels real slow and laid-back and sometimes I rip into them as fast I can manage without f*cking up the rhythm too badly. Can even be during the same night.
). 113mpg isn't relentlessly fast, though. I also get bored of sessions where the tunes are painfully slow. It gets a bit mindnumbing. Balance is the best way.
I get bored at sessions where the speed is relentlessly fast. It's a lot of work to keep that up all night and I think the tunes lose something (there are a few sessions I appear at occasionally, however, where it's relentlessly fast but a hell of a lot of fun and I like those, but I think it's the people who make it good craic in spite of thrashing some tunes
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Tune speed?
113 mpg? The most fuel efficient tunes in the world!!
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Tune speed?
How many of the other players complain that you play too fast? A few? Most? Maybe they lack confidence and your playing 'up to speed' is demoralising?
I have to say that the beats per minute means nothing to me, so I can't comment on whether your playing is too fast/reasonable or otherwise.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by minijackpot
Re: Tune speed?
And do you value their opinions? If so take notice of what they say........
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by minijackpot
Re: Tune speed?
Benefit of the doubt given first and freely by yours truly, most of the time. From the looks of vacoreye's additional posts, it appears the benefit was spot on.
OBVIOUSLY, if someone is being a tool, an eejit, a doofus, basically playing fast to show off and p*ss people off, then they should get bent.
Sessions usually like them a tad slower than dancing so the musicians can put more oomph, lift, swing and nyah into the tunes, as opposed to flogging them around the dance floor.
That being said, I'd rather have a knitting needle shoved in my eye to have to play slow reels with no oomph at all in them whatsoever.
Can we get whatever the auld ones have to magically make the right pace every time on those things? Bottled, perhaps? Not too slow, not too fast, but just right, so that you're able to make variants and swing joyfully, yet not so fast that some folks start crying about it.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tune speed?
113 was around the high end at 10 of the 11 sessions I went to in Clare and Galway over the past two weeks. The exception was a late session at O'Keeffe's in Ennis with Anne-Marie McCormack, PJ King, John Rynne, and Maebh O'Hare, where they were usually 116-124. At the other sessions, mostly around 100-108, with one or two sets per night faster.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by GaryAMartin
Re: Tune speed?
Reels should be played at 113 BPM???
That seems slow to me. But I don't really think of this music as being "dance music". I know that it is. I acknowledge it. But a dancer at a session? Never seen one. Maybe cuz the session players were going too fast! LOL
One of my favorite reels is the version of "Drag Her Round the Road" by Dervish. And they play it waaaay faster than 113. Probably more like 180.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by Fishmonger
Re: Tune speed?
It's stepdance lingo.
"Re: A good tempo for tunes (bpm)?"
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/7222#comment154509
O.K., officially I am not here. Nobody actually saw me, got it?
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Tune speed?
Mum's the word!
Here's another post from that thread that wasn't posted by anybody, that may be of interest:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/7222#comment154490
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tune speed?
Obviously, I'm not at your session, so I can't say what's happening, but it's possible it's not the tempo, but the way you're playing them.
There's a few things that could be going on. One is simply your attitude towards the beat - if you're leaning forward on the beat, you sound faster, if you lay back and play a little lazy, you tend to sound slower. If your session-mates incline towards the latter, and you to the former, I wouldn't be surprised to find them hearing your tunes as "fast".
You might also look at the way you phrase the tunes. If they can't pick out what you're doing, they'll think it's because you're playing fast, but it might be that you're playing difficult at a moderate tempo. If you're throwing in a lot of ornaments and variations, leave them out until everyone starts catching up. You'll be amazed at how much slower they think you're playing.
The final thing - and remember, I haven't heard you so I'm not taking the p*ss - is that you might be playing too fast for yourself. I know in my case when I try to play out at the edge of my capacity, it's a lot harder to follow, especially on the box where one slip gets you a pretty bad wrong note. And it's not uncommon for "wow, that was fast" to be a subtle way of saying "take it easy, you're getting ahead of yourself". From what you say, it doesn't sound like this is the problem, but it's one possible way to get to where you are, so I figured I'd mention it.
If none of those things is at the root of your problem, then you might want to slow down some of your sets as a courtesy, especially if you're playing one that one of the slower players is partial to. If you get on the same page with them on the tune, maybe they'll be able to bump up their tempo a little. Who knows, you might find that you enjoy some of the tunes at a slower pace now and then.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Tune speed?
No dancers at your sessions, Fish? That's too bad!
We had this little old couple from Newfoundland who were vacationing in Florida this past Sunday. The lady sang us Molly Ban, then later on in the afternoon, her and the mister got up and shuffled to Miss McLeod's. When it was over, they sat back down.
So...we played it again! They got back up and danced again!
Very choosy folks, I liked that. They knew what they wanted to dance to, and would only dance to that, bless their souls. They looked like they were pushing 80.
They also had no issues with our speed. I didn't have the speedometer running, but I'd guess we were in the usual 100-110 area.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tune speed?
Clearly you can play comfortably at a quick pace as evidenced by your Mason's Apron clip. The only question is, when seated at a table with folks who clearly cannot keep up, do you wish to play alone all night or dial it down a few notches so others can join you?
As for the folks who complain after one or two sets - fuggetaboudit - sour grapes by clueless novices. However, if you go on all night well above the speed of everyone else - what have you really accomplished?
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Tune speed?
SWFL (can we call you Swiffle?) - One of my favorite dancers was an old fellow who would come in with his son, his walker, and his oxygen tank. This, in a bar so smoky you couldn't see the back of the room, and usually so crowded you couldn't get onto the dance floor without a carefully timed approach. But they made room for Howard, and everybody kept an eye on him - nobody EVER bumped into him - and it was an absolute delight to have him on the floor. No great leaping and spinning, of course, but he was having a fine old time. I always figured if you're going to be old, that's a good way to do it.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Tune speed?
180? Can you even hear the tune at 180? That sounds insane to me. Just goes to show you it's all relative to the individual session. I've played at sessions in the states and spectated session in Northern Ireland, and even there most tunes were slightly slower than dance speed, at least according to my wife who grew up with dance. Gary's posts seems about the average. I sometimes turn on a metronome just to see what the numbers feel like, and 100-105 seems about what I've heard at sessions, and the local one I go to tends to play reel sets at a hair under 100.
# Posted on January 19th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Tune speed?
"What do you guys think? Am I wrong for expecting to play my tunes at a fairly standard speed?"
Not wrong, but not necessarily friendly either.
It's your call. Given that you know the other people around you prefer to play a little slower, do you compromise a little on your speed and help them enjoy themselves (and enjoy playing with you)? Or do you play at your own speed and let them suck it up and deal for the relatively small set of tunes that you start yourself?
I don't think there's really a right/wrong answer here, but playing at a pace comfortable for everyone is certainly more social behavior. If you get bored, you could try playing around a bit with variations, fingerings or ornamentation...
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Georgi
Re: Tune speed?
I think I may have mis-understood, and others may have as well, just what constitutes a beat in bpm.
I'm counting each quarter note as a beat. If you are counting halfs then I'm slow as molasses. Which wouldn't surprise me. On most recordings I can't keep up. I have to slow down almost everything except perhaps hornpipes.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Fishmonger
Re: Tune speed?
That's great Jon, love it! I like the wee and the auld dancers the best. One of my favorite memories is playing a house party with Grandma dancing with a gaggle of toddlers.
Swiffle works just fine. I've made enough goofy nicknames for folks on here, I have no rights to complain.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tune speed?
Fishmonger -
That's funny. I was trying to imagine a reel at 180 and my head was spinning.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Tune speed?
Halves, Fishmonger. Unless a famous contrarian with numerous usernames pokes his head in.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by GaryAMartin
Re: Tune speed?
I knew there just had to be a lack of communication somewhere! LOL
My next question would be; Why count only half the beats??? I mean, I guess that works ok with reels but jigs don't exactly divide evenly ya know?
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Fishmonger
Re: Tune speed?
And the ABC software I've used doesn't work that way either as far as I can tell.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Fishmonger
Anon.
Oh no! Now you're just sucking me in. If it is about MIDI (playback) then the information field Q: can be included in the header ~ Q:1/2=113
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Tune speed?
Jigs: six notes; two beats.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by ethical blend
Re: Tune speed?
Having a nice time at a session is all about compromise and fitting in. When you get into your 40s and 50s you get to see this. If you're there to show off by playing fast (I'm not saying you are) someone is very shortly going to say something hurtful to you. Enjoy the company, talk gently to the others about what they prefer and leave your fast tunes at home. Playing slower will really show 'em how good you are anyway. It's much harder than playing fast.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Steve Shaw
Re: Tune speed?
LOL, GaryAMartin.... ...I was thinking exactly the same thing!
Just fer grins, I just counted off Catherine McEvoy's "The Pigeon On The Gate" on her first record... ...112, and it's rippin'!
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by browndog
Re: Tune speed?
(...about said, "famous contrarian with numerous usernames," that is...) lol
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by browndog
Re: Tune speed?
Hey "Anon", you sound like Pacino in Godfather III: "Just when I thought that I was out they pull me back in!"
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tune speed?
I just clocked Dervish playing Drag Her Round the Road
At The End Of The Day version - 120 bpm
Live in Palma version - 126 bpm (which is the same speed that vacorye is playing Mason's Apron in the YouTube clip)
As far as session speed goes, I have spent some time pushing my session-mates into playing a bit faster. I used to get the "whoa, that was rippin' along" comments after a set, but then I explained my reasoning behind it, and everybody seems to do just fine with it nowadays.
My reasoning is that the music takes on a different character when you play it a bit faster. The twists and turns in the tune come faster, and carry more of an element of surprise. They feel bouncier, and certain parts of the tune draw more attention in a catchy kind of way.
Having said that, I also like mixing it up. If you play everything at a high speed, you miss some of what makes this music beautiful. I'll play things slow and sweet, medium speed and groovy, as well as fast and twisty.
But to me, there's nothing worse than music that sounds like it is plodding along. The worst feeling is where you start something smartly, and then the session feels like a dead weight that is dragging on you the whole time.
So I would say that you're probably OK as long as you're not just showing off, and the music isn't suffering because of your speed. But try to mix it up some, and respect the fact that other people have different ideas about how the music should be played...
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Reverend
Re: Tune speed?
From my perspective, for every person who tells you to your face that they don't like something, there are four or five who get upset, but swallow it up and don't say anything. So if our Original Poster is getting as much feedback about speed as they describe, then they are not making a good impression on their session-mates. Nothing wrong with taking things a bit slower, gives you more chance to play around with the tune, use more twiddly bits--it is easy to make tunes sound bouncy when you move fast--challenge yourself by trying to make them lively even at a slower pace. Take your time, and learn to enjoy a more leisurely pace.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by AlBrown
Re: Tune speed?
In response to Reverend, I do play faster in performance than I do at sessions. I have a "session speed" which is slower.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by vacoreye
Re: Tune speed?
"then the information field Q: can be included in the header ~ Q:1/2=113"
Thx for that!
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Fishmonger
Re: Tune speed?
"At The End Of The Day version - 120 bpm
Live in Palma version - 126 bpm"
I just added "Q:1/2=126" to Drag Her Round the Road...
Good golly miss molly!! Way too fast for me. LOL
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Fishmonger
Re: Tune speed?
At sessions I go to, reels tend to range anywhere from the mid 90s on up into the high 120s and occasionally in the 130s. The "norm" if there is one seems to be 106 to 116, give or take 4 bpm.
Just for comparison, bluegrass instrumentals often cook along in the 130s and 140s.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Tune speed?
Also, our set dancers like reels at 112 to 122, and our step dancers like hard shoe reels at 116 to 126. But we have one local step dancer qualified for the World's in April, so that may skew our range of tempo a bit.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Will Harmon
Re: Tune speed?
Didn't the OP answer his/her own question ? Go to the 2nd session you mentioned where they play at your speed - sorted !
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Kenny
Re: Tune speed?
I haven't read all this but jumped to your YouTube clip and thought it didn't seem rushed, and had a nice rhythm and lift to it. I don't think people would complain about the speed here in Cambridge UK.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by RichardB
Re: Tune speed?
The steady tempo of The Rights of Man on your family myspace page is just great for this newbie to play along with and pay attention to what is going on.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by David50
Re: Tune speed?
Too fast isn't an absolute value, it depends on the mood the tune and the player, and of course personal taste.
Everyone plays too fast sometimes.
I've heard a few players down the years who IMHO played consistently too fast. By that I mean faster than they were able to while playing well. Sometimes it appeared to be a cover for very poor rythm or phrasing, perhaps the player hadn't even considered these aspects of the tune as they appeared only to be concerned with speed and very happy with their playing and quite taken with their speediness . (I'm thinking of one player in particular, and personally I thought this player was awful and probably would have been just as bad playing more slowly).
More commonly I've known younger players caught up in the excitement of playing fast. Often these have been very good players, but their playing has shone so much more when made to slow down a little when they are able to play with better swing and emphasis.
Sometimes it takes other players to point out that someone is playing too fast their ability, that other aspects of their playing is suffereing through an over-emphasis on speed. It can be difficult to hear this in your own playing, especially in those teenage years
There is also the separate question of playing too fast for a given session even if within the players ability. If this is done relentlessly can be antisocial and indicative of the player being more interested in displaying their ability (real or otherwise) at the expense excluding the main body of the session. In which case it is as well to remember that a good session isn't just about the music.
- chris
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Tune speed?
I hate the way young players, and some not so young, tear into the music. It does nothing for me at all. Anyway my arthritic fingers can't keep up, so I suppose it really is an age thing.
But surely it all depends on the particular tunes. Play one too slow and it loses its impact......Play one too fast and the tune gets ruined.
A quick example:
The Merry Blacksmith....nice and lively.
Mayor Harrison's Fedora...nice and steady, but certainly not as fast as the Merry Blacksmith. Consequently I'm inclined to put the fast tunes together in a set, and the slow tunes together in a set. That works for me.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Free Reed
Re: Tune speed?
Personally, I would never start a reel faster than about 108. I could keep up with speeds up to, say 120bpm, on a good night, but I couldn't put in much in the way of ornamentation and lift at those speeds. Anything faster than that, for me, is ridiculous - not that wouldn't enjoy listening to someone play at 130, if they're making good music of it. But I would get frustrated if I turned up at a session expecting to play and found it much too fast. I accept, of course, that a whole session should not have to pander to *my* limitations - I am happy to take the speed a notch or two above what I am most comfortable with in order to play tunes with people. But I think that, similarly, it is necessary for faster players to be aware of the speed preferences of others. A session is a social situation and, like any kind of social situation, has to be built on compromises and finding common ground; when we socialize, we find the common points in our personalities, we adjust our language and accent to facilitate communication, dress in an appropriate manner to the situation etc. Playing in a session is no different.
So, vacoreye, you could, as Kenny suggests, just ditch the slower session and go to the one where they play at your preferred speed. But if, as you say, many of the players at the slower session enjoy your playing, then it would be a shame to deprive them (and yourself - it's good to be appreciated) of the pleasure , So, perhaps it wouldn't hurt to slow down *a little* on *some* tunes, to allow everyone to play along comfortably. If you are used to playing fast, then playing (*playing*, that is, as an end in itself - not practising or learning tunes) slowly is a skill to be learned, and ultimately, can only make you a better musician.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Tune speed?
do people really have these numbers in mind when playing? I have no idea what bpm I play at, nor am I really all that bothered what the numbers would be.
i've never been able to count and play at the same time, I don't know how people can do that and still hear, enjoy the tune. Nor do I use mnemonics for tune typeswhen playing, although some tunes I hear the same words over again when playing:
e.g.
"The wind that shakes the barley,
the wind that shakes the barley,
the wind that shakes the barley,
the wind that shakes the barley.
the wind that, the wind that,
the wind that shakes the barley
the wind that, the wind,
the wind that shakes the barley"
e.g.
"deedle-leedle,deedle-leedle
deedle-leedle,deedle-leedle
deedle-leedle,deedle-leedle
Roll me in the rye-grass"
to name but two
Some days I can't even suck mints and play. That's me, so crap at multi-tasking I can only suck at one thing at once.
- chris
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Tune speed?
Its not speed, its the lilt that matters. Fast can be just as tasteless and bland as slow. Its all about expression, subtle variation, lean and sway. This is why I stress these aspects of the tunes over ornamentation. Ornaments are grand, but they are of minuscule importance in relation to the feel and lilt of the music. Get the Basics sorted and the extras sort them selves out over time.
The art is to make beautiful music with simplicity of approach.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tune speed?
Uh, aye, Chris.
That's good to know next time I sit next to you at the session.
I'm pleased to say I can suck and blow at the same time!
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Tune speed?
It don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swi...nyah?
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tune speed?
Vacoreye -
You said in your last post that your performance speed is faster than your session speed. That sounds like it should be. I don't see that you're doing anything wrong, it just may be a situation where the group is just not up to playing at performance/dance speed. It's a session. I certainly understand if you prefer to play at dance speed, but it sounds to me like you should probably just slow it down a bit, don't go to the point of the lowest common denominator, but you should probably put in some small effort to find that happy place between your desires and theirs. Perhaps there are a couple of folks in the group you trust whose input you can get in that regard?
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Tune speed?
You'll know if the tempo for a particular tune is right if you don't have to cahnge your trousers and your wig glue remains adhesive.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Tune speed?
'change"
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Tune speed?
...but where do trousers come into play?
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tune speed?
Wherever there's a trouser session.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Tune speed?
If you find you are having to play too fast because some show off is murdering a tune by doing so and you are keeping up with them you may find you willl have to change your trousers. That's why stout brown cordoroys are especially appropriate for the 'quck sessions'.
If it's a mythical Eb session then where your white cotton yachting strides.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Tune speed?
Bugger "wear"
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Tune speed?
If you are playing for dancers, you must play at the correct speed for the dance in question. However, when there are no dancers to consider (i.e. at a session) the following would normally apply:
1) If you you start a tuneset, the other musicians should follow you at your chosen speed. Unless of course you are playing ridiculously slowly, in which case you shouldn't complain if others try to speed it up.
2) if someone else starts a tuneset, at plays at a speed to fast for you to follow, tough luck.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Tune speed?
In the case of (2) i.e. at speed, a good thick tight leather belt on your trousers is a good idea. Buckle up and sit down...
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by yhaalhouse
Re: Tune speed?
yhallhouse -
What is it with you and trousers/wig glue? :o
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Tune speed?
Bugger wear? What does one wear when they...oh, wait, forget it. I don't want to know. I have visions of wig glue in painful places.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tune speed?
"What does one wear when they...oh, wait, forget it."
A pained expression?
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by johndsamuels
Re: Tune speed?
I think the wig glue is in my fingers... HUP!
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by Fishmonger
"
"do people really have these numbers in mind when playing?"
I hope not
"I have no idea what bpm I play at, nor am I really all that bothered what the numbers would be.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Tune speed?
...Sorry - clicked too soon.
"I have no idea what bpm I play at, nor am I really all that bothered what the numbers would be."
Nor me. I just found an online metronome, set it to 113bpm and tried to play along, just so I knew what people here were talking about.
But if people want to write about how fast they should or shouldn't or can or can't play, expressions such as "fast" or "a hundred miles an hour" aren't particularly helpful. Yes, it can start to look a bit geeky, discussing precise numbers of beats beats per minute, but it serves a simple purpose where you can't actually hear each other play. If someone were to start talking bpm in a real life playing situation, I'd be very disturbed indeed.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Tune speed?
Brilliant. I think you've discovered why it's so disturbing to talk to dancers.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tune speed?
That's a joke, by the way. Settle down dancers. Put down the pitchforks and torches.
# Posted on January 20th 2010 by SWFL Fiddler
Bpm bpm bpm (bpm)?
Some might consider pitchforks if they link on the following . . . a multi-metronomic device called the Trinome . . .This sought-after device has long since been out of production, and even appears in the Metronome museum! . . . http://www.luckymedia.com/Quadranome/
C'mon, you all know SWFL is funnier than me.
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Tune speed?
I'm picturing a bunch of dancers in curls and fancy dance costumes wielding pitchforks and torches.
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by Jimmy B
It's all about dance music.
Jimmy, I believe you have just written the next theme concept for the RiverDance/CelticWomen phenom. ;)
Not coming to a session near you.
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Tune speed?
As long as I get paid. It's still a money-making phenom, isn't it?
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by Jimmy B
Re: Tune speed?
Caeful Jimmy. The showbiz world can be a cruel mistress. But, sure, someone's gonna be cashing in.
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
~
Careful . . .
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Tune speed?
Like everyone else, I don't know what's really going on in your session. And of course there is no "right" speed to play a tune, no "right" way to run a session etc. Your session mates might be useless idiots, or they might be tactfully trying to tell you something you need to learn. I cannot tell.
But I looked at your youtube clip and one thing seems possible. Probably, from the look of the clip, you are getting through the tunes "correctly", on time and without many mistakes. But to your tunes have any lift? Any character? Do they dance? Do they have any life? Are they worth listening to? Do they inspire the listener? Do they have pulse? Drive? Or are you just producing a boring stream of fast notes?
These are just questions. Any opinion I may have as to their answers is my own.
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by BanJacki
Re: Tune speed?
Didn't know about the YouTube. Wow, your session mates are trying to tell you something. Give 'em some credit. ;)
BanJacki, it's not all opinion. You've interlaced those comments with cold hard science, i.e. ~ the facts.
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by Ben Steen
Re: Tune speed?
vacoreye,
You've got some good chops going for you, but you sound like you're playing just a tad faster than you ought to. What I mean is that you're occasionally slipping out of the rhythmic groove. This usually means you need to slow down and concentrate on lift, feeling, staying in the rhythmic groove. A good way to approach it is to set an easy (but not draggy) tempo and listen very closely to the other players. Listen for the notes that want to be accentuated and try to hit the accents precisely with the other players. When you're all listening and hitting those accents together, it all starts to settle into a groove and become easier, more natural. And speed becomes less of an issue.
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by Bob himself
Re: Tune speed?
Playing fast for dancers is a must, you do loose a sense of the melody, people who aren't that intrested in trad would find listening to the an enseble like the Chieftains or Danu than a Ceili Band playing for dancers
A nice speed is that Noel Hill Tony Linnane album
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by premier
Re: Tune speed?
Speed schmeed, Do you give good groove??? That's all that matters. Groove or lilt or lift or swing, it's different than rhythm and it's different than speed. It's what makes your music irresistibly toe tapping if you have it, or an undifferentiated, blurred smear of notes if you don't have it. Check out what banjacki says, and look out into the audience next time you play your fast tunes. Are they tapping, twitching, nodding along to the groove you're laying down? or not?
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by Twisty
Re: Tune speed?
If you have dancers or are playing a dance, then by all means play the tunes at "dance speed." If not, then why? Many tunes need a bit of speed to make them pop, but the faster you play, the less ornamentation is possible (for players who are mere mortals). Sessions are social events, not competitive races, or at least they should be, IMHO.
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by Audeamus
Re: Tune speed?
i just watched your youtube and while i will say that i would run through a plate-glass window to get away from music being played at this speed after about 15 to 30 minutes of it, you do have the chops to be playing at that tempo, so that's definitely not an issue as it all too often is......moreover, i actually don't think this is hyper-fast. it's like a very brisk dance speed. those staccato ornaments make it sound more hyper than it really is. they're not what i like, but you do them really well. i was in manhattan for a funeral a couple months ago and used it as an excuse to linger and circulate to a bunch of seshes and i did play in a couple that were this fast and faster. not my thing, but brilliant. the b/c box player john redmond is a gorgeous player who plays very fast in session. i don't think your speed hear is super-hyper-fast. i think that as long as you're not taking over your seshes and imposing this, or ruining other players' sets with this, you should do what you want when it's your turn and ignore the comments. [OR you could be generous and slow it down a hair so that others can play with you, and then find like-minded tyros to shred it up with in another setting.]
# Posted on January 21st 2010 by ceemonster