Hi to everyone! I just joined this site, but have been lurking in the shadows for a while, enjoying in particular the great sense of humor in the postings!
Here's my story:
I have spent a good amount of time practicing with a metronome to get my rhythm and tempo steady, and I think I came a long way, maybe too long? Because now, I can get really frustrated at sessions when people start speeding up. It's not the more dynamic gradual speeding up over a longer set, which I consider something almost natural in a session and something that might actually contribute to the exhilerating feeling one gets when everything's just perfect. But what really gets me is that some players speed up at always the same predictable couple of bars in certain tunes; after that, the tempo stays more or less the same until the repeat of this part, and then the same erratic speeding occurs. My reaction usually is to try and play louder and accentuate the beat more (fiddle), and my experience is that it (at least sometimes) helps people realize that they are speeding. Some time ago, I asked one experienced and usually very steady player whether I should stick to my guns/tempo or go with the flow, and he encouraged me to try and keep the tempo steady. Another player, who shows up once in a blue moon, actually complemented me once as keeping the session together and that it had been a great pleasure to play with me.
However, it sometimes seems to turn into a fight of two different tempi being played for a couple of bars, since people tend not to listen enough to other players (which can be rather difficult in this particular session since it's in a loud pub and 10 or so musicians are spread out along a long table). The other night, one player actually got really upset at me and said that I should stop it and just go with the flow.
I don't want to spoil the fun for everyone by being stubborn and a big pain in the you-know-where. But going with the flow would entail that I intentionally speed up (which actually might be quite difficult to do, although I'm sure that I still speed up plenty of times unintentionally), and I'm concerned of undermining my attempts at a steady beat. And I don't think that meeting at the lowest common denominator is such a great thing to do, either.
Heike, it's great to hear that people in your neck of the woods (what's let of them) are back to playing tunes after dodging all the fires. Though maybe that explains why someone blew up at you--was this during or after the fires? I'd be irritable too.
I say stick to your beat. Speeding up on certain phrases is certainly a common problem, but it's still a "problem," not something to ignore. After all, this is dance music, and dancers expect a steady beat. Even if you're not playing for dancers, unsteady rhythm is a bad habit.
I notice people (including myself after one too many pints) speeding up on certain types of phrases. A series of triplets tends to encourage speeding, whether its a run in a hornpipe (e.g. |(3efe (3dcB (3ABA (3GFE|) or a common way of embellishing a reel (|eA (3cBA eA (3cBA|). On fiddle, this often happens because people take too short a bow stroke on the lead-in note(s), or because the up-bows shorten, which means the down bows (and all too often down beats) come all the sooner.
It strikes me that one of the problems with speeding up only on certain phrases is that those phrases might be different for different instruments. If the box speeds up one part, and the flute another, and the fiddle yet another, you've got chaos.
My bet is that only an arrogant but insecure player would berate you for keeping a steady beat. (Just make sure it's not you who's off.) Even the best players can wander now and then, but they appreciate having a beat to come back to.
And think about re-arranging the seating at that session. Sounds like you all need to move closer together so you can hear. Nothing worse than being stretched out. Simple distance changes when you hear the sound from the other end of the circle, and that alone will trip up the rhythm.
I say speak up ! try and get them to play better ( ie: at a steady pace )
If they love the music they should have no objection to being asked to play it well/better. Sure you risk them getting defensive, or even angry, thats their issue.
Can you enlist some support, from the session "leaders", the alpha players ? or are they the problem ?
Some people think its "required" to play fast, others think its OK to be medicore ( ie: speed up and stuff... ) , I guess they are all correct......, On the other hand if they can't play the tunes well they should do their ( more ) practise at home. You are entitled to assert your wishes as much as anyone.
Passively saying nothing is not gonna work for you is it ?
In fact the opposite, you'll get frustrated.....
I found people at our session responded positively to a sincere constructive request ( from me ) to keep the tempo steady.
Some thought they should play faster ( above their skill level ) .
Insist that they each listen to the whole sound and maintain the tempo, its a group activity , a team, if you want it to be as good as possible, you might need to risk the conflict.
But, where the conflict it , is where the growth is to be found.
Will is right about arranging the seating tighter , so you can hear each other better.
Inconsistant tempo, speed is unacceptable. If you speak up, and fail to get them to change, at least you tried, you'll have expressed yourself........... In fact you will have made a brave and honourable gesture towards your fellow-sessioners, in asking them to up their game. Feedback is always useful, and should be sought
Are you the same Heike that worked for Andreas Rogge? I believe he had an apprentice by that name at one time.
I know exactly what you mean about people speeding up on certain bars of certain tunes -- like those measures in the Lads of Laoise and the Jolly Tinker... At a session that my husband and I hosted a few years ago, I would sometimes make a point to wear hard-soled shoes and then tap my foot as loud as I could whenever people started speeding up like that. Another of our "regulars" would sometimes stop playing his fiddle and tap out the beat on the table with his hand. People would get the idea!
Thanks for the feedback!
I don't think we have too many options with the seating arrangement, but all musicians are aware that it is a problem, so maybe someone has an ingenious idea how to make it work. This is even more important since the noice level at the pub has recently gone up considerably.
No, Aimee, I'm a different Heike. Does she also play Irish music?
As for tapping on the table... we have one player who has resorted to that before (although it was more banging), and it didn't go over too well with the group!
But Will might have a point, too. Stress could have had something to do with that musician's reaction, not necessarily the fires but other things as well. I'll probably see her Sunday at another session in a somewhat smaller setup, which might lend itself better for a discussion of this issue.
Sometimes it helps to designate one player as the keeper of the beat, no matter what. Usually a backer (guitar or bouzouki), bodhran, or at least someone with a strong, solid rhythm. Even if you just do this for a set or two, it can help.
You'd think it would be obvious, but it never hurts to *ask* the backers or drummers to provide that solid beat. Some of them don't realize that the other players are looking to them to fill that role. Personally, I like it when the lead players set the pace, and then the backers/drummers latch onto it and keep it steady no matter what. That way, you can get adventurous in your own playing, trying variations, coming at the beat from different angles, and always come home to the rhythm they're pounding out.
Sounds like you've got a good opportunity to communicate with people between sessions, and that's when you're most likely to encourage them to re-think their approach to this. I like Pat's idea that you're all coming to it out of a love and respect for the music--work together to do it justice. Doesn't mean you expect it to be perfect every time, but gives everyone a common goal.
One other thought. Once during rehearsals for a concert, four of us were having a hard time staying together. We were each focused so much on our individual parts that we weren't listening to each other or the overall sound. So the guitarist suggested turning our chairs to face outward, leaving us sitting with our back to each other. We played a couple of sets that way, and it forced us to listen beyond our own playing--it took away our visual clues for staying on the same beat. It also made us all laugh, instead of taking ourselves so seriously. Another way to do this in a crowded session is to ask everyone to close their eyes (and open their ears) for a set.
maybe I´m not the one to give advice on that, because I´m one of these fiddlers who sometimes tend to wander arround the steady beat ...
especially when it comes to triplet down runs or some of the phenomenons like the too short bowing mentioned by Will. Since I emphasize on „Boy, it is dance music!!!" I work on my steady beat and gone a long way now in implementing the steady beat into my right leg (still to go a few miles further...).
anyway I have an advice (or my personal strategy): building up a beat steady gang within the session - getting each others attention especially when it comes to these phrases, where the banjo player tends to ignore evry before played bpm - making some kind of a team action out of the keeping the beat process ... don´t forget: you´re never alone (or you are in the wrong session - but don´t judge too early on that).
An approach which is useful is to speak to the "offenders" in such a way as to say "Please can you help me, I have a problem" - i.e. making out that you are seeking help rather than giving a criticism. Once the problem is thrashed out, it may be that in fact they change their ways, but the approach has not been one which appears to assume that they are in the wrong.
I know how bad i feels to jam along wit folks who speeds up in sessions...
I actually felt really good at a festival (Århus Folk Festival) where here wa a bones-player who kept the beat... and then he was joined by a banjoplayer, a fiddler, and a pianoplayer who kept the beat. For hours, everything was in perfect time.... Sweet...
I have the same problem - I have a metronome in my head and have a house style so I always play a certain tune at a "sesible" speed and don't speed up.
I also tend to be a "speed cop" but as I play big-box I can do something about it and slow them down.
I am a 12 year old male, so you might think I dont have much experience on this topic. However, I am an experienced whistle player and have been playing for 6 years. I even played with the famous Marry Bergin (if you know her) for a summer. But anyway, I go to local sessions as pubs and crap, but also to national sessions in our country, and I have know hundreds of players. Some of these decades oder than myself. But enough bragging, and on to the topic.
I have know several players who have not only played poorly, but even not let me playing jeering me and calling me "too young". Fools! You must speek up, and show them what you truly are and that you require good tone for them to continue playing.
Well, Zach, I'm glad you know when you're bragging. ;) Personally, though I'm fairly confrontational and am quite able to use the mouth I was born with, I generally find that, unless winning the Mr./Ms. UnCongeniality prize is the goal for the evening, "requiring" things from other players is a rather dicey proposition in the first place (totally aside from the issue of whether what you require is right or not), and requires diplomacy if you care about being considered a nice person as well as a good player. If you care more about music than people's feelings or your own welcome in the circle, though, then have at it in whatever manner you choose.
Let's face it, all. I love this stuff as much as anyone else here, but it's only music. At the end of the day, having played the music at a correct speed isn't going to have mattered as much to me as whether I was decent to my fellows.
And, by the way, anyone who's read my posts for a while probably already knows that I'm not advocating nice music over being willing to accept crap music.
I agree, Zina. That's mainly where my conflict stems from. I do not want to offend anyone and I have to take into consideration that not everyone in that session is necessarily there to achieve the highest possible standards, but mainly to have fun (although I think everyone there will agree the best fun is great music). It's an open session with players of all kinds of levels and degrees of obsession with Irish music. So, sadly enough, we can't count on the boghran players for support...
Trying to change the seating arrangement seems to be the best approach, so that - if I can't stop myself from being a nuisance (which is very likely since I am rather stubborn) - people are more likely to notice and adjust.
When I find someone is deviating from the beat (and if it's me that's started the tune), I'll start to "give it more foot"... I'm a bit of a bugger for stamping anyway, but if someone's trying to lose the beat for me, I sometimes worry if I'll go through the floor! Still, at least they usually get the message (i.e. stop and listen for a moment). Doesn't work well on carpet though.
Do the seating thing, get a core ( engine ) of the good players sitting together. That will become the heart of the session as they will be able to stay together time-wise and keep the whole thing in time. ( works well for us here).
BUT
you might need to risk offending people if you want to improve things, its not them thats the problem, its just flakey rhythm, so why would they take it personally? I would want to be the first to know if I was outta time/tune whatever..... I'am over getting hostile and defensive, I'd welcome any opportunity to improve.... The payoff for them and you all is enormous, an enhanced session experience, its worth striving for.
In Ireland, people wouldn't hesitate to tell someone to " f&^&^k off " if they needed more practise ( ie: do it at home ) or if they were destroying the music. Its brutal, but standards are high ( partly ) because of this.
My feeling is that State-side, nobody wants to give offence, everybody is nice to each other all the time, and its all one big happy family...... so you end up with less than optimum sessions....... ? someone will straighten me out here, its only an idea, garnered from American horror at European bluntness on other lists...
I think it is necessary to assess exactly whom you are playing with before criticising them. I have, on occasion, played with musicians who not only speed up or slow down, but drop beats left right and centre. Yet they may have been playing the music for 40 years or more, and have more music in their toenail clippings than I have in my entire being. As a middle class Jewish boy from a leafy London suburb, with a bit of a classical music background, who am I to stop them mid tune and tell them how to play.
And no i am not a fool. I must ask though Zina, i see your point regarding manners during a session, however, i know the players at these sessions very well, and there is no offence taken over such matters. I have been named "speedy gonzalas" by those who play with me and I have some authority. Only a mere 16 people max. may show up to these "sessions" and possibly only 10 are experienced. I understand your view completly, but to get a full experience from the playing (as well as a good reputation from those at the bar) you must keep tempo as well as good key!
Well said, David, I absolutely agree. I do piano backing, and my major "strength" is rock-steady rhythm, but as a backer it's my job to follow what the melody players are doing and support them, no matter what direction they are going in. (Keeping in line with other backers is a different matter, very difficult sometimes, we all think we know best!) Melody players indeed go in some mighty funny directions, quickening up, slowing down, dropping beats as David says, plus switching round the A & B parts of the tune, sometimes doing the repeats, sometimes not, changing the degree of "lift" which they use from bouncy to straight and back again within the space of a few bars, varying the volume/dynamics with no warning, it sure keeps me awake! But if those players are of the calibre and experience that David is describing, they can bring more to the music than I could ever dream of, I'm just really thrilled if any of them is happy for me to accompany them.
'My feeling is that State-side, nobody wants to give offence, everybody is nice to each other all the time, and its all one big happy family...... so you end up with less than optimum sessions....... ? someone will straighten me out here, its only an idea, garnered from American horror at European bluntness on other lists... '
I agree with your comment pat - it certainly does seem to be that way. And I agree that this is probably one of the reasons the standard is so high in Ireland (obviously not all the reasons - but it helps I'd say)
Zach, because you know the members of your session very well, well enough to tell them to feck off if you like, doesn't mean that Heike knows the members of her session well enough for that nor that she deals with them in the same authoritative way that you can deal with your own. Also, I didn't say you're a fool. Although by infering that I did, perhaps you're being foolish.
As for the one-happy-family thing, Pat, well, attending some of the Chicago, NYC and Boston sessions are enough to disabuse anyone of that, and even out here in the warm and fuzzy hinterlands, I've personally told a couple of losers off, especially at my own session. Making assumptions that all Yank players are going to be all the same in a certain way, though, is just like someone assuming that all Irish people are a certain leprauchauny way or that all Aussies carry a big knife and go on about barbies all the time.
However, there's ways and then there's ways of telling someone to feck off, and which way you use is going to depend on the situation.
This issue isn't going to go away. We will always run into it. We will always have to find ways around it, because obviously the ways we've chosen in the past don't work, because we're still dealing with it over and over and over again. Why not try something new and see if it works better than a simple "feck off until you can play better"? Just a thought.
I'm reminded of the time a work colleague was handed back a review copy of a document they'd written that simply had "bull****" written across the front cover in red pen. As a review comment, this was unprofessional and offensive, and contained zero useful information to assist the author in improving the document. Likewise unless accompanied by an explanation, "feck off till you can play better" also contains zero useful information.
Assuming the target of the comment isn't deliberately setting out to play badly and ruin the session, they possibly don't know what they're doing that's so annoying. It might happen of course that you explain what's wrong and they ignore you or , like Heike's session mate, go crook at you. If, after you've tried polite explanation, the only alternative is "feck off", I don't have a problem with it at all but doing so as a first course of action surely doesn't increase one's own stature as a human being.
Mark! that is truly terrible - made me laugh tho! Sorry Zina its true - we shouldnt catergorise people (I can well believe that you've told people to feck off) hehe - aussie *do* talk about barbies alot - that part is true
I have to wonder about the oldsters who wobble about in a tune. I've played with some brilliant players, and even they get out of synch now and then, miss a note or a whole bar, etc. That doesn't necessarily make it "right" or musical or anything but a mistake. Is it acceptable? Well of course--we're all only human. But most of these folks will tell you they're striving mightily to make sure it doesn't happen too often, and when it does, to recover as quickly and unobtrusively as possible.
That sounds like a far cry from what Heiki is describing, where a couple of players routinely go off kilter and don't care to change their ways. If that's the case, I think she can find diplomatic ways away from the session to encourage them to improve their playing. And if they don't respond, she's within her rights to hammer the beat home when it's needed.
I like that this thread touches on the paradox that backers face: supplying a rock solid beat while following the lead of the melody players. It's true--you have to do both, somehow. And in a nutshell, that what all the players in a session should be doing--staying with a steady beat, but listening all the while to be ready at a moment's notice to change gears. They key to a good session, in my mind, is that the changes happen for a reason. It may not be premeditated, or wholly rational, or precisely guided, or even 100 percent successful (some of us like to experiment, and sometimes the chemistry set blows up in our faces , but we ought to be *aware* of the change, whether it's swing, or tempo, or meter, or even pitch. So that it's not happening just because someone's out of control or indulging a serious flaw in their abilities, or just lost.
As an example, at last Tuesday's session our uillean piper started up Brenda Stubbert's at a slow (he's a good piper, but new to the uillean chanter) but firm march-like pace. We played right at that tempo three or four times through the tune. And then I decided to bump it up just a few beats per minute. And inject a touch of lift. The piper came right along, and it sounded great. He actually appreciated the gentle nudge in that direction. Then the concertina player gave me a look. I said, "wanna let her go?" and he nodded. Off we went. it made a nice, seamless progression, the backers stayed right with us, and everyone had fun. All it takes is a little communication, listening, and flexibility. It helps that in our case, most of us have been playing together for at least 5 years. We know each other's tendencies and abilities.
Actually, it sounds to me like the players Heiki's having problems with have made the mistake of taking their music as part of themselves, and so feel that any criticism of how they play is a criticism of themselves. It will make dealing with them extremely difficult.
P.S. Pat hasn't been to some of the stateside session's I've seen. Anything *but* democratic and one big warm fuzzy fest. If you don't have the skills, you don't get a seat. And if you somehow grabbed a seat before the lack of skills was apparent to all, the chair magically works its way across the room--still occupied--to land next to the loo. Remember, they've been sessioning out in public in Chicago, NYC, and Boston at least as long as in Dublin, Galway, and Ennis.
That said, every session I've been to has been different from every other. They all have their own personalities, and change unpredictably from week to week. Thank gawd.
Yes, things to stab with, things to strangle with, things to use as a club, and if all else fails, you can break their eardrums with loud piercing noises...really covers it all except for bullets, really.
You forgot poison, Zina. You should have seen what landed in the beer glasses when an unnamed fiddler at the last session I went too blew on the rosin build up all over the belly.
Heeeyyyyy Tish dont be telling people things like that! I'm going to get it cleaned - I promise!
Zina - what time is it over there?? Youre not usually logged on this late! Better tell me before I go get my fiddle
Heh. It's only 10:40 pm or so (2240 in other words, or numbers or whatever), but I've been up since 4:30 am. I'm going to go take a nap here soon for about half an hour, then get back up and soldier on...
ugh - you poor thing! Well I'm having a non tune night tonight - first time in ages, I just dont know what to do with myself (actually thats a lie - I know exactly what to do and it involves the pub
Egg egg egg egg egg! That's what the internet is for!
BTW I've hardly drunk a drop since I left which just goes to prove that bb is the bad influence on me, not the other way round. Egg on shmegg on. [Yeugh that didn't come out right]
Well, Zina, first off, I didnt imply you were calling me a "fool" I was talking about the title of my response. And second i understand your point of view, but you seem to be quite mistaken in the way you quote me. I did not ell any off my fellow players to quote "feck" off, and I am not suggesting this to Hieke either. I belive if trouble is being experienced, Hieke should face it head on by explaining that in order to get the experience out of it, he must have the rythm at his level during the song he wishes to play. I do not wish to eneter an argument with you or anyone else who disagrees with myself, I am simply stating my personal advice to hieke and trying to help.
Okay then, Zach, let's start over again because obviously there's a disconnect here somewhere. Where are you from? Is English your first language? Because in English, calling people "Fool!" is grounds for a fight. Following that up with a stated *requirement* (implying that you have the right to set that requirement for another player) that they play up to a certain standard could certainly come across as confrontational and arrogant. Pat Higgens expanded upon your last comment with the feck off stuff, so I apologize for not directing that part of my comments directly to him rather than you.
"Feck off", by the way, is everyday Irish idiom and many of us here have hung out in sessions now for so long, a great deal of Irish idiom has rubbed off (and won't come off no matter how much soap and hot water we've tried). Nuns and old ladies use it. I don't know why. Same with "sh*te". I don't know why those two words are acceptable (well, more acceptable) in gentle company than the other two in Ireland, they just are.
Um, and by the way, she spells her name "Mary Bergin".
Well, I give in Zina, if you read my response, I did not call you a fool. The title true, but not true, sounds fairly awkward. If I have somehow offended you please tell me. But I do not wish to be continually dissed by you because if you truly doubt me, yes english does happen to be my first language.
I appologize for any insults i may have absant-mindadly slured!
Nah, nah, nah, no offense taken, Zach. Mainly my back was up because I felt your post came across as rather arrogant. Looking at some of your syntax, I wondered if English was a second language, as some of your language usage doesn't sound particularly colloquial and I thought perhaps that might explain the disconnects, that was all -- no offense meant, and I hope none taken.
Anyway, where are you from and what sessions do you attend, Zach?
Well, I come from New York, though I was born in Colarado, and I live in Ithaca home of Cornell Univesity. There ar several Irish Pubs around town where we play one of which you will find in the sessions list.
BTW: My typing is bad because My life is packed and I need to types quickly, plus I cat touch-type.
PS. Im not really 12, just dont tell anyone who didnt read this. I like to keep people off my back by saying that.
As it happens, I live in between Denver and Boulder.
The nice thing about the Net is that really it doesn't matter how old you are. The only thing that really matters is the quality of your communication. If it's good, then no one need know what your age is!
It may sound like I'm trying to score sagacity points, but I like to think of playing with those of 'fluid' rhythm as a healthy challenge - something which will ultimately make me a better musician. If anything, taking that stance saves me getting p***ed off, and giving out bad vibes around the session. If I am playing with a less experienced musician, I will try my best to impose a solid rhythm, although this can be difficult on a quiet instrument like the mandolin (I know for a fact that my own rhythm can be a little irregular on the whistle - my other instrument).
I presume, Zach, that as a 13 year old, you have managed to pack in more experience of Irish traditional music in 6 years than I have in the last 8 or 9 years (having started in my early 20s), so if you were to tell me to feck off, I would dutifully oblige.
Why say you are 12? There are far better ages than 12! very strange - kinda thing a *12* year old would do actually - I dont know if I believe that you are 25.
Er...perhaps by not being any other age, Helen? *grin* Seriously. I don't ever think about anyone's age online unless they force it on me, and, actually, I suppose I don't think about it much in meatspace either. It's just...what is that person capable of and what not?
Funny, I was just thinking about that this morning. We have a student who is over 20 who is functionally at about an 11 year old level. She's a lovely girl, very sweet, and I do believe that our dance school is the best thing that ever happened to her, as it's the first place she seems to have been treated with respect and as a real person. Most everyone treats her not as a 20 year old who can't behave as a 20 year old, but as someone who can do what she can do and not what she can't, just like anyone else. And we expect her to learn and retain what she's learned. Iin response, she does -- maybe not as fast as others, but certainly at an unprecedented rate for her previously.
I guess the important thing is that you leave room for someone to grow and be better (without relegating them to a certain stage in growth unless they force it on you). It's just the same with the music and with anything else, really. I think it was Andee who once pointed out that people here are very good about forgiving people's momentary bad moods or hissy fits and will treat people as their actions deserve on a case by case. We all deserve a pat on the back for that, and I hope it keeps up.
Zach hasn't started off well here, but he did apologize and I for one will treat him as I would anyone else -- based on each instance rather than the backlog of the past -- in the future. (Besides, with everyone taking the p*ss out of him he's probably paid his dues at this point. *grin*) Whether he's 12 or 25 is of no real moment. Same for anyone else.
Man, I am glad to hear this. And the truth is if you dont belive me, you can have that opinion, but please dont take that out on me. And, sorry, but if I may ask, how long does it take before one can blend in here?
There are a lot of good suggestions here! I would say to move your session to a corner, if at all possible, so you can hear each other. To be sitting all in a row makes it hard to hear. I find it helpful to play right along with someone else at the same tempo, this can serve to steady everyone up!
As you get to know each other's strengths and weaknesses tempo-wise, this might iron itself out. Just hold your own tempo as steady as you can. Good luck with it, try to think of it as something that will evolve with time..
Zach, here's a tip for how to blend in, instead of telling us you have no more time to give us any information about you, why not tell us where you're from and what instrument you play, maybe how long you've been playing. Do you go to many sessions in wherever you are?
*grin* Well, point of fact, Zach, you've deserved it. You've come off exactly as an arrogant 12 year old, whether you intended to sound that way or not, and people are trying to tell you in fairly typical ways for a session, meatspace or cyber -- and apparently you haven't gotten the hint. Hope you manage better in real life, though with a nickname like "Speedy Gonzalez", probably not. Heh.
Seriously, though. If you really want to "blend in" here, I'd say that rushing to tell everyone how good you are wasn't probably the best way to start. Now that you've done it, you're going to have to live it down, I'm afraid. When people think you've gotten the point, they'll likely let up on you, although you'll probably be riding it for quite some time and just when you think people have forgotten about it... I suggest trying the "humble" route for a bit, and be sensitive to when people are trying to tell you things that they aren't saying straight out -- it's the Irish way, I'm afraid.
I'd stick with being twelve, frankly. That way you can sound extra smart and for your age if you're indeed in your 20's and decide to act it. And another hint -- people around here hate it when people constantly mispell words, it's a thing particular to the Islands Formerly Known As British, I've noticed. Take a bit more care. I seriously doubt that you could possibly be more busy than myself, and if I can take the time to check, so can you.
Anyway, Dow (Mark) is right. Some basic info on yourself is good. Don't be too surprised if people know who you know -- it's a very small community, globally speaking.
To answer your last question: it will depend on you, really. If you keep coming over an arrogant *ss, probably it'll be quite some time. If you behave well, then probably not long at all.
Most important of all - don't antagonise the creepoz any further. They're probably pretty huffy right now, I bet they're miffed that you say you're 12 on one thread and then immediately 'fess up on another that it's all a ruse to avoid 'em. The local breed of creepo we get round here eats whistle players *without salt* - you have been warned
You guys are so harsh! Really, Zach, we're not "taking it out on you", but if you tell people you're 12, then it follows that everyone's going to assume you're 12, since we can't actually see you. Not that 12-year-olds are unwelcome of course - if they have something interesting to say and aren't just whingey brats then great. Personally I detest children on the whole, because most of the kids I have met are attention-seeking little sh*ts. If they play music and are unfortunate enough to have parents who tell them how wonderful they are, then that usually makes them even more insufferable. I guess other people must like them, otherwise people wouldn't keep having them, but I hate 'em.
So Zach, here's another tip for blending in. When you post on this site, reread through it at least once after you've written it. While you're reading, imagine you're someone else on the other side of the world, and then imagine how you'd react to the post if you were that person. Often you'll find that it comes across in a way that it wasn't meant, or it could be taken to mean something different. If so, don't post it. I end up erasing about half of my posts by policing them myself. Also bear in mind that whatever you post stays there for like, ever. In 10 years time you could potentially look back on your first posts and think "my God, I must have come across as a complete nipple", or I dunno you might read them and decide that you were really cool and everyone else was too stupid to realise how amazing you are. Anyway, try it and see how you get on.
Reminds me of a street performing friend of mine, a top notch juggler, except one time he dropped a ball right near the climax of his act and some little tyke caught it and ran off with it. After some chasing, pleading, and wrestling, the lil' bugger gave it up, but the ball was slathered in sticky candy residue. The juggler just looked at the crowd and deadpanned, "Now I understand why some animals in the wild eat their young."
As for Zach.... See, some of us old timers here are a little gun shy about people who's first few posts come across as arrogant, intentionally misleading (I'm being polite now), and sloppy. We've seen a handful of such people come and go, usually escorted out the door by our benevolent dictator (all hail Jeremy the Wise! .
Much like a meatspace session, thesession.org is not the place to dazzle people with your solo work, but rather a place to be yourself, participate in good faith, make friends, and contribute to the overall fun and tunes. Mark's (Dow) advice about re-reading your comments before you post them is good--if you don't care enough to do that, why should we care enough to read them? You'll find people will forgive typos and the odd mistakes (and valiant efforts at English as a foreign language) if your posts add to the craic and generally friendly atmosphere here.
(....funny how this thread evolved into an immediate online example of how to address a problem not unlike the one Heike started us off with.)
Well, Im glad for your um, *Thinking* advice! Now that I have everybody on the disscussion boards on me *laughing out loud* I guess I should feel more welcome. Thanx to everyone. And now I shall bug off, for i have to take up my "speedy gonzales" life and meet someone out of town so until I next get everybody stoked up! LOL
yours
-zach. J
session conflict
session conflict
Hi to everyone! I just joined this site, but have been lurking in the shadows for a while, enjoying in particular the great sense of humor in the postings!
Here's my story:
I have spent a good amount of time practicing with a metronome to get my rhythm and tempo steady, and I think I came a long way, maybe too long? Because now, I can get really frustrated at sessions when people start speeding up. It's not the more dynamic gradual speeding up over a longer set, which I consider something almost natural in a session and something that might actually contribute to the exhilerating feeling one gets when everything's just perfect. But what really gets me is that some players speed up at always the same predictable couple of bars in certain tunes; after that, the tempo stays more or less the same until the repeat of this part, and then the same erratic speeding occurs. My reaction usually is to try and play louder and accentuate the beat more (fiddle), and my experience is that it (at least sometimes) helps people realize that they are speeding. Some time ago, I asked one experienced and usually very steady player whether I should stick to my guns/tempo or go with the flow, and he encouraged me to try and keep the tempo steady. Another player, who shows up once in a blue moon, actually complemented me once as keeping the session together and that it had been a great pleasure to play with me.
However, it sometimes seems to turn into a fight of two different tempi being played for a couple of bars, since people tend not to listen enough to other players (which can be rather difficult in this particular session since it's in a loud pub and 10 or so musicians are spread out along a long table). The other night, one player actually got really upset at me and said that I should stop it and just go with the flow.
I don't want to spoil the fun for everyone by being stubborn and a big pain in the you-know-where. But going with the flow would entail that I intentionally speed up (which actually might be quite difficult to do, although I'm sure that I still speed up plenty of times unintentionally), and I'm concerned of undermining my attempts at a steady beat. And I don't think that meeting at the lowest common denominator is such a great thing to do, either.
Any ideas what to do?
Heike
# Posted on November 5th 2003 by heike
Re: session conflict
Heh, where are the bodhrans when you need 'em?
Heike, it's great to hear that people in your neck of the woods (what's let of them) are back to playing tunes after dodging all the fires. Though maybe that explains why someone blew up at you--was this during or after the fires? I'd be irritable too.
I say stick to your beat. Speeding up on certain phrases is certainly a common problem, but it's still a "problem," not something to ignore. After all, this is dance music, and dancers expect a steady beat. Even if you're not playing for dancers, unsteady rhythm is a bad habit.
I notice people (including myself after one too many pints) speeding up on certain types of phrases. A series of triplets tends to encourage speeding, whether its a run in a hornpipe (e.g. |(3efe (3dcB (3ABA (3GFE|) or a common way of embellishing a reel (|eA (3cBA eA (3cBA|). On fiddle, this often happens because people take too short a bow stroke on the lead-in note(s), or because the up-bows shorten, which means the down bows (and all too often down beats) come all the sooner.
It strikes me that one of the problems with speeding up only on certain phrases is that those phrases might be different for different instruments. If the box speeds up one part, and the flute another, and the fiddle yet another, you've got chaos.
My bet is that only an arrogant but insecure player would berate you for keeping a steady beat. (Just make sure it's not you who's off.) Even the best players can wander now and then, but they appreciate having a beat to come back to.
And think about re-arranging the seating at that session. Sounds like you all need to move closer together so you can hear. Nothing worse than being stretched out. Simple distance changes when you hear the sound from the other end of the circle, and that alone will trip up the rhythm.
Good luck!
# Posted on November 5th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: session conflict
I say speak up ! try and get them to play better ( ie: at a steady pace )
If they love the music they should have no objection to being asked to play it well/better. Sure you risk them getting defensive, or even angry, thats their issue.
Can you enlist some support, from the session "leaders", the alpha players ? or are they the problem ?
Some people think its "required" to play fast, others think its OK to be medicore ( ie: speed up and stuff... ) , I guess they are all correct......, On the other hand if they can't play the tunes well they should do their ( more ) practise at home. You are entitled to assert your wishes as much as anyone.
Passively saying nothing is not gonna work for you is it ?
In fact the opposite, you'll get frustrated.....
I found people at our session responded positively to a sincere constructive request ( from me ) to keep the tempo steady.
Some thought they should play faster ( above their skill level ) .
Insist that they each listen to the whole sound and maintain the tempo, its a group activity , a team, if you want it to be as good as possible, you might need to risk the conflict.
But, where the conflict it , is where the growth is to be found.
Will is right about arranging the seating tighter , so you can hear each other better.
Inconsistant tempo, speed is unacceptable. If you speak up, and fail to get them to change, at least you tried, you'll have expressed yourself........... In fact you will have made a brave and honourable gesture towards your fellow-sessioners, in asking them to up their game. Feedback is always useful, and should be sought
Pat
# Posted on November 5th 2003 by Pat Higgins
Re: session conflict
Hello Heike!
Are you the same Heike that worked for Andreas Rogge? I believe he had an apprentice by that name at one time.
I know exactly what you mean about people speeding up on certain bars of certain tunes -- like those measures in the Lads of Laoise and the Jolly Tinker... At a session that my husband and I hosted a few years ago, I would sometimes make a point to wear hard-soled shoes and then tap my foot as loud as I could whenever people started speeding up like that. Another of our "regulars" would sometimes stop playing his fiddle and tap out the beat on the table with his hand. People would get the idea!
Aimee
# Posted on November 5th 2003 by print o' the wave
Re: session conflict
Thanks for the feedback!
I don't think we have too many options with the seating arrangement, but all musicians are aware that it is a problem, so maybe someone has an ingenious idea how to make it work. This is even more important since the noice level at the pub has recently gone up considerably.
No, Aimee, I'm a different Heike. Does she also play Irish music?
As for tapping on the table... we have one player who has resorted to that before (although it was more banging), and it didn't go over too well with the group!
But Will might have a point, too. Stress could have had something to do with that musician's reaction, not necessarily the fires but other things as well. I'll probably see her Sunday at another session in a somewhat smaller setup, which might lend itself better for a discussion of this issue.
Thanks!
Heike
# Posted on November 5th 2003 by heike
Re: session conflict
Sometimes it helps to designate one player as the keeper of the beat, no matter what. Usually a backer (guitar or bouzouki), bodhran, or at least someone with a strong, solid rhythm. Even if you just do this for a set or two, it can help.
You'd think it would be obvious, but it never hurts to *ask* the backers or drummers to provide that solid beat. Some of them don't realize that the other players are looking to them to fill that role. Personally, I like it when the lead players set the pace, and then the backers/drummers latch onto it and keep it steady no matter what. That way, you can get adventurous in your own playing, trying variations, coming at the beat from different angles, and always come home to the rhythm they're pounding out.
Sounds like you've got a good opportunity to communicate with people between sessions, and that's when you're most likely to encourage them to re-think their approach to this. I like Pat's idea that you're all coming to it out of a love and respect for the music--work together to do it justice. Doesn't mean you expect it to be perfect every time, but gives everyone a common goal.
One other thought. Once during rehearsals for a concert, four of us were having a hard time staying together. We were each focused so much on our individual parts that we weren't listening to each other or the overall sound. So the guitarist suggested turning our chairs to face outward, leaving us sitting with our back to each other. We played a couple of sets that way, and it forced us to listen beyond our own playing--it took away our visual clues for staying on the same beat. It also made us all laugh, instead of taking ourselves so seriously. Another way to do this in a crowded session is to ask everyone to close their eyes (and open their ears) for a set.
# Posted on November 5th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: session conflict
maybe I´m not the one to give advice on that, because I´m one of these fiddlers who sometimes tend to wander arround the steady beat ...
especially when it comes to triplet down runs or some of the phenomenons like the too short bowing mentioned by Will. Since I emphasize on „Boy, it is dance music!!!" I work on my steady beat and gone a long way now in implementing the steady beat into my right leg (still to go a few miles further...).
anyway I have an advice (or my personal strategy): building up a beat steady gang within the session - getting each others attention especially when it comes to these phrases, where the banjo player tends to ignore evry before played bpm - making some kind of a team action out of the keeping the beat process ... don´t forget: you´re never alone (or you are in the wrong session - but don´t judge too early on that).
# Posted on November 5th 2003 by crannog
Re: session conflict
Heike
An approach which is useful is to speak to the "offenders" in such a way as to say "Please can you help me, I have a problem" - i.e. making out that you are seeking help rather than giving a criticism. Once the problem is thrashed out, it may be that in fact they change their ways, but the approach has not been one which appears to assume that they are in the wrong.
Dave
# Posted on November 5th 2003 by showaddydadito
Re: session conflict
I know how bad i feels to jam along wit folks who speeds up in sessions...
I actually felt really good at a festival (Århus Folk Festival) where here wa a bones-player who kept the beat... and then he was joined by a banjoplayer, a fiddler, and a pianoplayer who kept the beat. For hours, everything was in perfect time.... Sweet...
Lars.
# Posted on November 5th 2003 by Larshansen
Re: speed cop
I have the same problem - I have a metronome in my head and have a house style so I always play a certain tune at a "sesible" speed and don't speed up.
I also tend to be a "speed cop" but as I play big-box I can do something about it and slow them down.
# Posted on November 5th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: session conflict
I am a 12 year old male, so you might think I dont have much experience on this topic. However, I am an experienced whistle player and have been playing for 6 years. I even played with the famous Marry Bergin (if you know her) for a summer. But anyway, I go to local sessions as pubs and crap, but also to national sessions in our country, and I have know hundreds of players. Some of these decades oder than myself. But enough bragging, and on to the topic.
I have know several players who have not only played poorly, but even not let me playing jeering me and calling me "too young". Fools! You must speek up, and show them what you truly are and that you require good tone for them to continue playing.
You were born with a mouth USE IT!!
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Jason_the_fiddler_01
Re: session conflict
Well, Zach, I'm glad you know when you're bragging. ;) Personally, though I'm fairly confrontational and am quite able to use the mouth I was born with, I generally find that, unless winning the Mr./Ms. UnCongeniality prize is the goal for the evening, "requiring" things from other players is a rather dicey proposition in the first place (totally aside from the issue of whether what you require is right or not), and requires diplomacy if you care about being considered a nice person as well as a good player. If you care more about music than people's feelings or your own welcome in the circle, though, then have at it in whatever manner you choose.
Let's face it, all. I love this stuff as much as anyone else here, but it's only music. At the end of the day, having played the music at a correct speed isn't going to have mattered as much to me as whether I was decent to my fellows.
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: session conflict
And, by the way, anyone who's read my posts for a while probably already knows that I'm not advocating nice music over being willing to accept crap music.
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Zina Lee
*sigh* sorry...advocating "being nice" over being willing, thinking too fast for my typing...
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: session conflict
I agree, Zina. That's mainly where my conflict stems from. I do not want to offend anyone and I have to take into consideration that not everyone in that session is necessarily there to achieve the highest possible standards, but mainly to have fun (although I think everyone there will agree the best fun is great music). It's an open session with players of all kinds of levels and degrees of obsession with Irish music. So, sadly enough, we can't count on the boghran players for support...
Trying to change the seating arrangement seems to be the best approach, so that - if I can't stop myself from being a nuisance (which is very likely since I am rather stubborn) - people are more likely to notice and adjust.
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by heike
Re: session conflict
When I find someone is deviating from the beat (and if it's me that's started the tune), I'll start to "give it more foot"... I'm a bit of a bugger for stamping anyway, but if someone's trying to lose the beat for me, I sometimes worry if I'll go through the floor! Still, at least they usually get the message (i.e. stop and listen for a moment). Doesn't work well on carpet though.
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by rog
Re: session conflict
Heike
Do the seating thing, get a core ( engine ) of the good players sitting together. That will become the heart of the session as they will be able to stay together time-wise and keep the whole thing in time. ( works well for us here).
BUT
you might need to risk offending people if you want to improve things, its not them thats the problem, its just flakey rhythm, so why would they take it personally? I would want to be the first to know if I was outta time/tune whatever..... I'am over getting hostile and defensive, I'd welcome any opportunity to improve.... The payoff for them and you all is enormous, an enhanced session experience, its worth striving for.
In Ireland, people wouldn't hesitate to tell someone to " f&^&^k off " if they needed more practise ( ie: do it at home ) or if they were destroying the music. Its brutal, but standards are high ( partly ) because of this.
My feeling is that State-side, nobody wants to give offence, everybody is nice to each other all the time, and its all one big happy family...... so you end up with less than optimum sessions....... ? someone will straighten me out here, its only an idea, garnered from American horror at European bluntness on other lists...
Good Luck with it.
Pat
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Pat Higgins
Re: session conflict
I think it is necessary to assess exactly whom you are playing with before criticising them. I have, on occasion, played with musicians who not only speed up or slow down, but drop beats left right and centre. Yet they may have been playing the music for 40 years or more, and have more music in their toenail clippings than I have in my entire being. As a middle class Jewish boy from a leafy London suburb, with a bit of a classical music background, who am I to stop them mid tune and tell them how to play.
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by CreadurMawnOrganig
True, however not true
And no i am not a fool. I must ask though Zina, i see your point regarding manners during a session, however, i know the players at these sessions very well, and there is no offence taken over such matters. I have been named "speedy gonzalas" by those who play with me and I have some authority. Only a mere 16 people max. may show up to these "sessions" and possibly only 10 are experienced. I understand your view completly, but to get a full experience from the playing (as well as a good reputation from those at the bar) you must keep tempo as well as good key!
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Jason_the_fiddler_01
Re: session conflict
Well said, David, I absolutely agree. I do piano backing, and my major "strength" is rock-steady rhythm, but as a backer it's my job to follow what the melody players are doing and support them, no matter what direction they are going in. (Keeping in line with other backers is a different matter, very difficult sometimes, we all think we know best!) Melody players indeed go in some mighty funny directions, quickening up, slowing down, dropping beats as David says, plus switching round the A & B parts of the tune, sometimes doing the repeats, sometimes not, changing the degree of "lift" which they use from bouncy to straight and back again within the space of a few bars, varying the volume/dynamics with no warning, it sure keeps me awake! But if those players are of the calibre and experience that David is describing, they can bring more to the music than I could ever dream of, I'm just really thrilled if any of them is happy for me to accompany them.
Jane R
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by LW
Re: session conflict
'My feeling is that State-side, nobody wants to give offence, everybody is nice to each other all the time, and its all one big happy family...... so you end up with less than optimum sessions....... ? someone will straighten me out here, its only an idea, garnered from American horror at European bluntness on other lists...
'
I agree with your comment pat - it certainly does seem to be that way. And I agree that this is probably one of the reasons the standard is so high in Ireland (obviously not all the reasons - but it helps I'd say)
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by bb
Re: session conflict
Zach, because you know the members of your session very well, well enough to tell them to feck off if you like, doesn't mean that Heike knows the members of her session well enough for that nor that she deals with them in the same authoritative way that you can deal with your own. Also, I didn't say you're a fool. Although by infering that I did, perhaps you're being foolish.
As for the one-happy-family thing, Pat, well, attending some of the Chicago, NYC and Boston sessions are enough to disabuse anyone of that, and even out here in the warm and fuzzy hinterlands, I've personally told a couple of losers off, especially at my own session. Making assumptions that all Yank players are going to be all the same in a certain way, though, is just like someone assuming that all Irish people are a certain leprauchauny way or that all Aussies carry a big knife and go on about barbies all the time.
However, there's ways and then there's ways of telling someone to feck off, and which way you use is going to depend on the situation.
This issue isn't going to go away. We will always run into it. We will always have to find ways around it, because obviously the ways we've chosen in the past don't work, because we're still dealing with it over and over and over again. Why not try something new and see if it works better than a simple "feck off until you can play better"? Just a thought.
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: session conflict
I agree with that last thought, Zina.
I'm reminded of the time a work colleague was handed back a review copy of a document they'd written that simply had "bull****" written across the front cover in red pen. As a review comment, this was unprofessional and offensive, and contained zero useful information to assist the author in improving the document. Likewise unless accompanied by an explanation, "feck off till you can play better" also contains zero useful information.
Assuming the target of the comment isn't deliberately setting out to play badly and ruin the session, they possibly don't know what they're doing that's so annoying. It might happen of course that you explain what's wrong and they ignore you or , like Heike's session mate, go crook at you. If, after you've tried polite explanation, the only alternative is "feck off", I don't have a problem with it at all but doing so as a first course of action surely doesn't increase one's own stature as a human being.
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Tish
Re: session conflict
Zina, the guy you told off - was he smiling and moaning quietly while you were shouting at him?
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: session conflict
Heh. Getyermindouttathegutter, Mark.
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: session conflict
Mark! that is truly terrible - made me laugh tho! Sorry Zina its true - we shouldnt catergorise people (I can well believe that you've told people to feck off) hehe - aussie *do* talk about barbies alot - that part is true
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by bb
Re: session conflict
*grin* I know, but you'd be the first to tell me to feck off if I told you all Aussies do it...only other Aussies get to do that! Heh.
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Zina Lee
Ooo, fear and trembling!
BUT -- do you carry a big knife, Beebs? Run away! Run away! Bridie's got a knife! *snort*
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: session conflict
I have to wonder about the oldsters who wobble about in a tune. I've played with some brilliant players, and even they get out of synch now and then, miss a note or a whole bar, etc. That doesn't necessarily make it "right" or musical or anything but a mistake. Is it acceptable? Well of course--we're all only human. But most of these folks will tell you they're striving mightily to make sure it doesn't happen too often, and when it does, to recover as quickly and unobtrusively as possible.
, but we ought to be *aware* of the change, whether it's swing, or tempo, or meter, or even pitch. So that it's not happening just because someone's out of control or indulging a serious flaw in their abilities, or just lost.
That sounds like a far cry from what Heiki is describing, where a couple of players routinely go off kilter and don't care to change their ways. If that's the case, I think she can find diplomatic ways away from the session to encourage them to improve their playing. And if they don't respond, she's within her rights to hammer the beat home when it's needed.
I like that this thread touches on the paradox that backers face: supplying a rock solid beat while following the lead of the melody players. It's true--you have to do both, somehow. And in a nutshell, that what all the players in a session should be doing--staying with a steady beat, but listening all the while to be ready at a moment's notice to change gears. They key to a good session, in my mind, is that the changes happen for a reason. It may not be premeditated, or wholly rational, or precisely guided, or even 100 percent successful (some of us like to experiment, and sometimes the chemistry set blows up in our faces
As an example, at last Tuesday's session our uillean piper started up Brenda Stubbert's at a slow (he's a good piper, but new to the uillean chanter) but firm march-like pace. We played right at that tempo three or four times through the tune. And then I decided to bump it up just a few beats per minute. And inject a touch of lift. The piper came right along, and it sounded great. He actually appreciated the gentle nudge in that direction. Then the concertina player gave me a look. I said, "wanna let her go?" and he nodded. Off we went. it made a nice, seamless progression, the backers stayed right with us, and everyone had fun. All it takes is a little communication, listening, and flexibility. It helps that in our case, most of us have been playing together for at least 5 years. We know each other's tendencies and abilities.
Heiki, let us know how this resolves.
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: session conflict
Actually, it sounds to me like the players Heiki's having problems with have made the mistake of taking their music as part of themselves, and so feel that any criticism of how they play is a criticism of themselves. It will make dealing with them extremely difficult.
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Zina Lee
P.S. Pat hasn't been to some of the stateside session's I've seen. Anything *but* democratic and one big warm fuzzy fest. If you don't have the skills, you don't get a seat. And if you somehow grabbed a seat before the lack of skills was apparent to all, the chair magically works its way across the room--still occupied--to land next to the loo. Remember, they've been sessioning out in public in Chicago, NYC, and Boston at least as long as in Dublin, Galway, and Ennis.
That said, every session I've been to has been different from every other. They all have their own personalities, and change unpredictably from week to week. Thank gawd.
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Will Harmon
Zina, maybe that's just their initial, knee-jerk reaction. Sometimes you have to plant the seeds of change and let time takes its course.
And aren't you supposed to be sewing?
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: session conflict
Yes, just like you're supposed to be writing! *smirk*
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: session conflict
No Zina, I carry a fiddle -which can be much more damaging than a knife
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by bb
Re: session conflict
Yes, things to stab with, things to strangle with, things to use as a club, and if all else fails, you can break their eardrums with loud piercing noises...really covers it all except for bullets, really.
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Zina Lee
Hehehe
"That's not a fiddle. THIS is a fiddle."
God, I'm delirious from lack of sleep...
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: session conflict
You forgot poison, Zina. You should have seen what landed in the beer glasses when an unnamed fiddler at the last session I went too blew on the rosin build up all over the belly.
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Tish
Re: session conflict
Heeeyyyyy Tish dont be telling people things like that! I'm going to get it cleaned - I promise!
Zina - what time is it over there?? Youre not usually logged on this late! Better tell me before I go get my fiddle
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by bb
Heh. It's only 10:40 pm or so (2240 in other words, or numbers or whatever), but I've been up since 4:30 am. I'm going to go take a nap here soon for about half an hour, then get back up and soldier on...
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: session conflict
ugh - you poor thing! Well I'm having a non tune night tonight - first time in ages, I just dont know what to do with myself
(actually thats a lie - I know exactly what to do and it involves the pub
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by bb
Re: session conflict
Re: "That's not a fiddle. THIS is a fiddle."
No. That would be a viola.
*snicker*
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: session conflict
LOL @ Will
Brids, you mean you can drink without Dow there to egg you on?
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: session conflict
Egg egg egg egg egg! That's what the internet is for!
BTW I've hardly drunk a drop since I left which just goes to prove that bb is the bad influence on me, not the other way round. Egg on shmegg on. [Yeugh that didn't come out right]
# Posted on November 6th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: session conflict
Well, Zina, first off, I didnt imply you were calling me a "fool" I was talking about the title of my response. And second i understand your point of view, but you seem to be quite mistaken in the way you quote me. I did not ell any off my fellow players to quote "feck" off, and I am not suggesting this to Hieke either. I belive if trouble is being experienced, Hieke should face it head on by explaining that in order to get the experience out of it, he must have the rythm at his level during the song he wishes to play. I do not wish to eneter an argument with you or anyone else who disagrees with myself, I am simply stating my personal advice to hieke and trying to help.
# Posted on November 7th 2003 by Jason_the_fiddler_01
Re: session conflict
Okay then, Zach, let's start over again because obviously there's a disconnect here somewhere. Where are you from? Is English your first language? Because in English, calling people "Fool!" is grounds for a fight. Following that up with a stated *requirement* (implying that you have the right to set that requirement for another player) that they play up to a certain standard could certainly come across as confrontational and arrogant. Pat Higgens expanded upon your last comment with the feck off stuff, so I apologize for not directing that part of my comments directly to him rather than you.
"Feck off", by the way, is everyday Irish idiom and many of us here have hung out in sessions now for so long, a great deal of Irish idiom has rubbed off (and won't come off no matter how much soap and hot water we've tried). Nuns and old ladies use it. I don't know why. Same with "sh*te". I don't know why those two words are acceptable (well, more acceptable) in gentle company than the other two in Ireland, they just are.
Um, and by the way, she spells her name "Mary Bergin".
# Posted on November 7th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: session conflict
Well, I give in Zina, if you read my response, I did not call you a fool. The title true, but not true, sounds fairly awkward. If I have somehow offended you please tell me. But I do not wish to be continually dissed by you because if you truly doubt me, yes english does happen to be my first language.
I appologize for any insults i may have absant-mindadly slured!
# Posted on November 7th 2003 by Jason_the_fiddler_01
Re: session conflict
Nah, nah, nah, no offense taken, Zach. Mainly my back was up because I felt your post came across as rather arrogant. Looking at some of your syntax, I wondered if English was a second language, as some of your language usage doesn't sound particularly colloquial and I thought perhaps that might explain the disconnects, that was all -- no offense meant, and I hope none taken.
Anyway, where are you from and what sessions do you attend, Zach?
# Posted on November 7th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: session conflict
Well, I come from New York, though I was born in Colarado, and I live in Ithaca home of Cornell Univesity. There ar several Irish Pubs around town where we play one of which you will find in the sessions list.
BTW: My typing is bad because My life is packed and I need to types quickly, plus I cat touch-type.
PS. Im not really 12, just dont tell anyone who didnt read this. I like to keep people off my back by saying that.
# Posted on November 7th 2003 by Jason_the_fiddler_01
Re: session conflict
As it happens, I live in between Denver and Boulder.
The nice thing about the Net is that really it doesn't matter how old you are. The only thing that really matters is the quality of your communication. If it's good, then no one need know what your age is!
# Posted on November 7th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: session conflict
It may sound like I'm trying to score sagacity points, but I like to think of playing with those of 'fluid' rhythm as a healthy challenge - something which will ultimately make me a better musician. If anything, taking that stance saves me getting p***ed off, and giving out bad vibes around the session. If I am playing with a less experienced musician, I will try my best to impose a solid rhythm, although this can be difficult on a quiet instrument like the mandolin (I know for a fact that my own rhythm can be a little irregular on the whistle - my other instrument).
I presume, Zach, that as a 13 year old, you have managed to pack in more experience of Irish traditional music in 6 years than I have in the last 8 or 9 years (having started in my early 20s), so if you were to tell me to feck off, I would dutifully oblige.
# Posted on November 8th 2003 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: session conflict
Well, Um Thank you, However i am not 13. But that is still very kind of you though I have no desire to tell you to do this.
# Posted on November 8th 2003 by Jason_the_fiddler_01
Re: session conflict
and, to Zina, (if you still care) lol! I was actually born in Denver.
# Posted on November 8th 2003 by Jason_the_fiddler_01
Re: session conflict
I've got some friends from a place near there called "South Park". Do you know them intribo666? They're even younger than you.
# Posted on November 8th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: session conflict
I have a friend who lives in the mountain town that South Park was more or less based on. He says that truth is stranger than even cartoons...
# Posted on November 8th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: session conflict
No, I moved to Ithaca when I was maybe, *thinking* 2 and that was 23 years ago.
# Posted on November 8th 2003 by Jason_the_fiddler_01
Re: session conflict
Why say you are 12? There are far better ages than 12! very strange - kinda thing a *12* year old would do actually - I dont know if I believe that you are 25.
# Posted on November 9th 2003 by bb
Re: session conflict
We should all act whatever age we are. Well, most of the time anyway...
# Posted on November 9th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: session conflict
Hmmm... I don't know, Dow - how *do* you act 37? I seem to have lost my instruction manual...
# Posted on November 9th 2003 by Nell
Re: session conflict
Er...perhaps by not being any other age, Helen? *grin* Seriously. I don't ever think about anyone's age online unless they force it on me, and, actually, I suppose I don't think about it much in meatspace either. It's just...what is that person capable of and what not?
Funny, I was just thinking about that this morning. We have a student who is over 20 who is functionally at about an 11 year old level. She's a lovely girl, very sweet, and I do believe that our dance school is the best thing that ever happened to her, as it's the first place she seems to have been treated with respect and as a real person. Most everyone treats her not as a 20 year old who can't behave as a 20 year old, but as someone who can do what she can do and not what she can't, just like anyone else. And we expect her to learn and retain what she's learned. Iin response, she does -- maybe not as fast as others, but certainly at an unprecedented rate for her previously.
I guess the important thing is that you leave room for someone to grow and be better (without relegating them to a certain stage in growth unless they force it on you). It's just the same with the music and with anything else, really. I think it was Andee who once pointed out that people here are very good about forgiving people's momentary bad moods or hissy fits and will treat people as their actions deserve on a case by case. We all deserve a pat on the back for that, and I hope it keeps up.
Zach hasn't started off well here, but he did apologize and I for one will treat him as I would anyone else -- based on each instance rather than the backlog of the past -- in the future. (Besides, with everyone taking the p*ss out of him he's probably paid his dues at this point. *grin*) Whether he's 12 or 25 is of no real moment. Same for anyone else.
# Posted on November 10th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: session conflict
Man, I am glad to hear this. And the truth is if you dont belive me, you can have that opinion, but please dont take that out on me. And, sorry, but if I may ask, how long does it take before one can blend in here?
# Posted on November 10th 2003 by Jason_the_fiddler_01
Re: session conflict
There are a lot of good suggestions here! I would say to move your session to a corner, if at all possible, so you can hear each other. To be sitting all in a row makes it hard to hear. I find it helpful to play right along with someone else at the same tempo, this can serve to steady everyone up!
As you get to know each other's strengths and weaknesses tempo-wise, this might iron itself out. Just hold your own tempo as steady as you can. Good luck with it, try to think of it as something that will evolve with time..
# Posted on November 10th 2003 by Aine Ni Scully
Re: session conflict
Zach, here's a tip for how to blend in, instead of telling us you have no more time to give us any information about you, why not tell us where you're from and what instrument you play, maybe how long you've been playing. Do you go to many sessions in wherever you are?
# Posted on November 10th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: session conflict
*grin* Well, point of fact, Zach, you've deserved it. You've come off exactly as an arrogant 12 year old, whether you intended to sound that way or not, and people are trying to tell you in fairly typical ways for a session, meatspace or cyber -- and apparently you haven't gotten the hint. Hope you manage better in real life, though with a nickname like "Speedy Gonzalez", probably not. Heh.
Seriously, though. If you really want to "blend in" here, I'd say that rushing to tell everyone how good you are wasn't probably the best way to start. Now that you've done it, you're going to have to live it down, I'm afraid. When people think you've gotten the point, they'll likely let up on you, although you'll probably be riding it for quite some time and just when you think people have forgotten about it... I suggest trying the "humble" route for a bit, and be sensitive to when people are trying to tell you things that they aren't saying straight out -- it's the Irish way, I'm afraid.
I'd stick with being twelve, frankly. That way you can sound extra smart and for your age if you're indeed in your 20's and decide to act it. And another hint -- people around here hate it when people constantly mispell words, it's a thing particular to the Islands Formerly Known As British, I've noticed. Take a bit more care. I seriously doubt that you could possibly be more busy than myself, and if I can take the time to check, so can you.
Anyway, Dow (Mark) is right. Some basic info on yourself is good. Don't be too surprised if people know who you know -- it's a very small community, globally speaking.
To answer your last question: it will depend on you, really. If you keep coming over an arrogant *ss, probably it'll be quite some time. If you behave well, then probably not long at all.
# Posted on November 10th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: session conflict
hehehehee - the 'speedy gonzales' thing probably wasnt the best thing you couldve said
# Posted on November 10th 2003 by bb
Re: session conflict
Most important of all - don't antagonise the creepoz any further. They're probably pretty huffy right now, I bet they're miffed that you say you're 12 on one thread and then immediately 'fess up on another that it's all a ruse to avoid 'em. The local breed of creepo we get round here eats whistle players *without salt* - you have been warned
# Posted on November 10th 2003 by Tish
Re: session conflict
You guys are so harsh! Really, Zach, we're not "taking it out on you", but if you tell people you're 12, then it follows that everyone's going to assume you're 12, since we can't actually see you. Not that 12-year-olds are unwelcome of course - if they have something interesting to say and aren't just whingey brats then great. Personally I detest children on the whole, because most of the kids I have met are attention-seeking little sh*ts. If they play music and are unfortunate enough to have parents who tell them how wonderful they are, then that usually makes them even more insufferable. I guess other people must like them, otherwise people wouldn't keep having them, but I hate 'em.
So Zach, here's another tip for blending in. When you post on this site, reread through it at least once after you've written it. While you're reading, imagine you're someone else on the other side of the world, and then imagine how you'd react to the post if you were that person. Often you'll find that it comes across in a way that it wasn't meant, or it could be taken to mean something different. If so, don't post it. I end up erasing about half of my posts by policing them myself. Also bear in mind that whatever you post stays there for like, ever. In 10 years time you could potentially look back on your first posts and think "my God, I must have come across as a complete nipple", or I dunno you might read them and decide that you were really cool and everyone else was too stupid to realise how amazing you are. Anyway, try it and see how you get on.
# Posted on November 10th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: session conflict
Is it time for the joke yet? It is? Okay, here goes...
*ahem*
I just looooooooove children
(but I couldn't eat a whole one)
coat. right.
# Posted on November 10th 2003 by Q
Re: session conflict
Reminds me of a street performing friend of mine, a top notch juggler, except one time he dropped a ball right near the climax of his act and some little tyke caught it and ran off with it. After some chasing, pleading, and wrestling, the lil' bugger gave it up, but the ball was slathered in sticky candy residue. The juggler just looked at the crowd and deadpanned, "Now I understand why some animals in the wild eat their young."
.
As for Zach.... See, some of us old timers here are a little gun shy about people who's first few posts come across as arrogant, intentionally misleading (I'm being polite now), and sloppy. We've seen a handful of such people come and go, usually escorted out the door by our benevolent dictator (all hail Jeremy the Wise!
Much like a meatspace session, thesession.org is not the place to dazzle people with your solo work, but rather a place to be yourself, participate in good faith, make friends, and contribute to the overall fun and tunes. Mark's (Dow) advice about re-reading your comments before you post them is good--if you don't care enough to do that, why should we care enough to read them? You'll find people will forgive typos and the odd mistakes (and valiant efforts at English as a foreign language) if your posts add to the craic and generally friendly atmosphere here.
(....funny how this thread evolved into an immediate online example of how to address a problem not unlike the one Heike started us off with.)
# Posted on November 10th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: session conflict
Intribo666 is a windup surely?
Come back Tanya!
# Posted on November 10th 2003 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: session conflict
Don't think I didn't get that irony, Will. *grin* Geoff, you, you, yoik. Stoppit. LOL
# Posted on November 11th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: session conflict
Well, Im glad for your um, *Thinking* advice! Now that I have everybody on the disscussion boards on me *laughing out loud* I guess I should feel more welcome. Thanx to everyone. And now I shall bug off, for i have to take up my "speedy gonzales" life and meet someone out of town so until I next get everybody stoked up! LOL
yours
-zach. J
# Posted on November 12th 2003 by Jason_the_fiddler_01