"One component of Celtic music, which has direct links to eastern influence, is the use of the rising fifth which caused soaring musical passages in otherwise evenly distributed notes."- from Tap Roots by Mark knowles
Can someone explain what a 'rising fifth' is? Simple abc example or names of some tunes/ parts where this occurs.
I'm reading this book and since I play a form of 'Celtic' music (I guess) I ought to know what this means but being totaly unlearn-ed in music I haven't a clue. Your help is appreciated!
You don't mean a raised fifth, do you? As in D+, D7#5, etc. Not too many of these chords in ITM !!!
He must mean the melody note often jumps from, for instance, a succession of root notes (say E) to the fifth note in the scale (say B). I dunno, musicologists say the strangest things sometimes...
He might be talking about the interval of a 5th; and rising intervals of same in a passage of a reel i.e.:
CGDA EBFc etc.
Or he could be talking about ascending 5ths, in which case he's referring to the circle of 5ths, and chord progressions based on the circle of 5ths.
Of course he might just be referring to raising a fifth of Guiness to your lips which makes for soaring musical passages immediately afterwards.
Anyone else got any ideas?
I'm with jasonb -- I’m afraid I don’t know what the term “rising fifth” means. The rest of that statement leaves me wondering, as well.
What is “Eastern” and in which direction does the influence flow? Is he speaking of the balkanization of the Music with the introduction of the bouzouki in the 60s? Or the polkas and mazurkas from the mid 1800s? Or the hornpipe craze that came over in the early 1800s? Does he mean far east, middle east or near east? Or just all the Scottish tunes that came over from the east?
No disrespect to Mr Knowles, he seems to be an authority on tap dance.
There actually is a connectionbetween Irish dance and American tap. His is only the latest book(that I've read) that touches on it. Irish immigrants and African Americans shared the same neighborhoods in 19th century America. Tap is what grew out of that.
Sorry shanty! I didn't mean to try and hijack the thread. It's just that your question (and some of the assumptions in your quote from Knowles) got me wondering. I can easily believe that Irish dance contributed to modern tap dance in America. It's the "Eastern connection" of which I'm dubious.
I did a little Google research (unconclusive!) stubling across a piece on the musicology of Bach's modal (ish) pieces and 'rising 5th' as opposed to, presumably 'sinking 5th' is to do with where you consider the tonic/ root/ key of a modal piece to be. The old is it C maj or G mix question and so forth. If a tune resolves to G but apparently appeared to be in C is maybe a rising fifth. I don't know how much modal theory a tap dance historian would know. Possibly more than me judging by this! And no wonder around Bach's time they invented the tempered scale and a piano to go with it!!! (thus buggering up our ears forever).
And the East of Byzantium/ Celtic intonation is mainly the old tempered/ non tempered scale thing. Voices/ fiddles/ flutes versus boxes, frets, keyboards. Listen to the high harmonics of the pipes and compare to classic 'Indian' tunes. The simularity is the lack of tempered notes.
I have two wardrobes: tempered and non-tempered.
For instance I would wear my non-tempered dogs tooth tweed flares when going out for a Punjabi meal of bhindi ghost and nan but certainly would have have my man Sritharan bring me a good pair of white loon pants from my tempered wardrobe if I was out eating boiled beef and carrots with Gilbert & George.
I had a little look at the context on google books. The next line of the book is:
"This jump in the melodic line of the music led Irish dancers to start incorporating sudden, high leaps into the otherwise low stepping intricate footwork."
I'd suggest that he's talking about a using the fifth for the offbeat in certain tunes. For example, the first couple of bars of The Gravel Walks, or Drowsy Maggie, the fifth is extensively used as the note on the accent.
There is an endnote not contained in GoogleBooks preview.
" ...This jump in the melodic line of the music led Irish dancers to start incorporating sudden, high leaps into the otherwise low stepping intricate footwork.²"
Random- heres the footnote-A rising fifth in music occurs when the thematic material played in a certain key is taken up an interval of five steps in a diatonic dominant progression.
Random- heres the footnote-A rising fifth in music occurs when the thematic material played in a certain key is taken up an interval of five steps in a diatonic dominant progression.
ciaranbradley is right then? Yes?
No, Ciaran was not talking about what is in that foot note. , although that was the best guess that I saw before we had it as to what the author was talking about. Ciaran was talking about when the melody contains a leap of a fifth, which happens often and repeatedly in Irish music.
The foot note, however Is talking about moving a theme, diatonically, by a fifth. By theme, He may mean sequence (a sequence of notes, or part of a melody) or he may mean a whole phrase or part. Usually what a musicologist would call a theme refers to what Irish musicians would call a part, usually 8 measures. And by Diatonically, it means that no note values are sharpened or flattened( as one note would have to be raised if said theme were to sound identical to the original).
So in this usage, Diatonic is synonymous with Modal. If you play a theme in G major that contains a C note, and then play that same theme starting on a note a fifth up from the original starting note, yet you continue to play C natural in the "transposed" theme. Then you have just done what this author is describing.
Thanks Earl but it's all pretty confusing to me still. Like Random asked--any examples? The author states this as if it's pretty common stuff in 'Celtic' music.
Add me to those puzzled about the term 'rising fifth.' I can see how the term might apply to an upward skip of a fifth in a melody just as 'risiing second,' rising octave' or whatever might be used. It is certainly not a term from any traditional theory I know of. The footnote mentioned by Earl and others implies moving a theme up and not an intervallic jump. I can figure that out. But doing that won't lead to a 'leap' in the dancing as a single jump in a melody might. So, add me to the ones that would like to see or hear some examples.
As to the interval being common in 'Celtic' music that is news to me. As to the shifting of a phrase it seems to me that a fourth is more common than a fifth, but I say that only from what little I can dredge up as I write this and not from any sort of real knowledge. Confusion between fourths and fifths is not that unusual in discussions and that just muddies the water...
I am confused as well. I don't see how moving a theme up a fifth
would be interpreted by dancers that way. I also don't think many tunes even do that. So yes you are not alone. I do however understand the meaning of the footnote and what it is describing, but that maybe who wrote it was not a fiddle player. Or maybe there was a coauthor or editor who came in and changed the footnote without knowing what the other author meant.
Like I said. We don't usually move thematic material upwards by a fifth, more likely by an octave when switching between the A and B part. The leap of a 5th and back down is much much more common, but If I wanted to describe that, I would simply calling leaping by an interval of a 5th or, a leap of a 5th.
A very bad example of the shift of a whole phrase might be playing Tam Lyn in Dminor and then again in Aminor which I have heard many times. I don't think that is exactly what Earl was describing though.
not really. I just think this author jumbled his meaning somehow, or he doesn't know a lot about Irish music. Maybe he casually listened to a couple tunes before making his sweeping generalization, I don't like it. There are generalities to the music like leaping up by a fifth, down by a fifth, up by a sixth, down by a sixth, up by a fifth, down by a fifth, which happens quite often. The same Idea is in all sorts of tunes where the tune does the same leaping pattern by different intervals, and some players add class to these phrases by playing some sort of slightly more melodic versions.
In conclusion, we would all be better off to forget we ever heard the term "rising fifth." It contradicts itself in the context it is presented, and I've never heard it anywhere else, and I consider myself a scholar of music and music theory.
What's a 'rising fifth?'
What's a 'rising fifth?'
"One component of Celtic music, which has direct links to eastern influence, is the use of the rising fifth which caused soaring musical passages in otherwise evenly distributed notes."- from Tap Roots by Mark knowles
Can someone explain what a 'rising fifth' is? Simple abc example or names of some tunes/ parts where this occurs.
I'm reading this book and since I play a form of 'Celtic' music (I guess) I ought to know what this means but being totaly unlearn-ed in music I haven't a clue. Your help is appreciated!
# Posted on December 10th 2009 by shanty
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
You don't mean a raised fifth, do you? As in D+, D7#5, etc. Not too many of these chords in ITM !!!
He must mean the melody note often jumps from, for instance, a succession of root notes (say E) to the fifth note in the scale (say B). I dunno, musicologists say the strangest things sometimes...
# Posted on December 10th 2009 by SteelPlayer
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
He might be talking about the interval of a 5th; and rising intervals of same in a passage of a reel i.e.:
CGDA EBFc etc.
Or he could be talking about ascending 5ths, in which case he's referring to the circle of 5ths, and chord progressions based on the circle of 5ths.
Of course he might just be referring to raising a fifth of Guiness to your lips which makes for soaring musical passages immediately afterwards.
Anyone else got any ideas?
# Posted on December 10th 2009 by fiddlerdan
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
I would like some clarity on "Celtic music" and "Eastern influence"... : P
# Posted on December 10th 2009 by jasonb
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
I'm with jasonb -- I’m afraid I don’t know what the term “rising fifth” means. The rest of that statement leaves me wondering, as well.
What is “Eastern” and in which direction does the influence flow? Is he speaking of the balkanization of the Music with the introduction of the bouzouki in the 60s? Or the polkas and mazurkas from the mid 1800s? Or the hornpipe craze that came over in the early 1800s? Does he mean far east, middle east or near east? Or just all the Scottish tunes that came over from the east?
No disrespect to Mr Knowles, he seems to be an authority on tap dance.
Is there truly a reel/raga connection?
# Posted on December 10th 2009 by fidkid
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
There actually is a connectionbetween Irish dance and American tap. His is only the latest book(that I've read) that touches on it. Irish immigrants and African Americans shared the same neighborhoods in 19th century America. Tap is what grew out of that.
# Posted on December 10th 2009 by shanty
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
Sorry shanty! I didn't mean to try and hijack the thread. It's just that your question (and some of the assumptions in your quote from Knowles) got me wondering. I can easily believe that Irish dance contributed to modern tap dance in America. It's the "Eastern connection" of which I'm dubious.
# Posted on December 10th 2009 by fidkid
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
I did a little Google research (unconclusive!) stubling across a piece on the musicology of Bach's modal (ish) pieces and 'rising 5th' as opposed to, presumably 'sinking 5th' is to do with where you consider the tonic/ root/ key of a modal piece to be. The old is it C maj or G mix question and so forth. If a tune resolves to G but apparently appeared to be in C is maybe a rising fifth. I don't know how much modal theory a tap dance historian would know. Possibly more than me judging by this! And no wonder around Bach's time they invented the tempered scale and a piano to go with it!!! (thus buggering up our ears forever).
And the East of Byzantium/ Celtic intonation is mainly the old tempered/ non tempered scale thing. Voices/ fiddles/ flutes versus boxes, frets, keyboards. Listen to the high harmonics of the pipes and compare to classic 'Indian' tunes. The simularity is the lack of tempered notes.
# Posted on December 10th 2009 by yhaalhouse
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
But what of trousers?
# Posted on December 10th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
Judging by the grammatical errors in the extract, I would guess that he is not the expert he would have us believe.
# Posted on December 10th 2009 by gam
Ok! Trousers...
I have two wardrobes: tempered and non-tempered.
For instance I would wear my non-tempered dogs tooth tweed flares when going out for a Punjabi meal of bhindi ghost and nan but certainly would have have my man Sritharan bring me a good pair of white loon pants from my tempered wardrobe if I was out eating boiled beef and carrots with Gilbert & George.
# Posted on December 10th 2009 by yhaalhouse
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
haha I did wonder what a "direct link to [an] influence" really meant. Redundant.
# Posted on December 10th 2009 by fidkid
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
Rising fives are the kids who are not quite five but who are just about to start school. Hope this helps. I sat on me reading specs last night.
# Posted on December 10th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
I had a little look at the context on google books. The next line of the book is:
"This jump in the melodic line of the music led Irish dancers to start incorporating sudden, high leaps into the otherwise low stepping intricate footwork."
I'd suggest that he's talking about a using the fifth for the offbeat in certain tunes. For example, the first couple of bars of The Gravel Walks, or Drowsy Maggie, the fifth is extensively used as the note on the accent.
# Posted on December 10th 2009 by ciaranbradley
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
In my world a rising fifith is a fifth of whiskey being raised to my lips.
# Posted on December 10th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
Maybe it's an academic term for a high five.
Not that I know what *that* is.
# Posted on December 10th 2009 by nicholas
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
I misread as "rising filth"!
# Posted on December 11th 2009 by mutatis mutandis
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
I'm gonna need to see the whole chapter, cause I've never heard that term used in Music Theory.
# Posted on December 11th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
Chapter 1 pg. 7 ~ Irish Influences;
http://books.google.com/books?id=g7vtBsF5OH0C&printsec=frontcover&dq=tap+roots&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false
There is an endnote not contained in GoogleBooks preview.
" ...This jump in the melodic line of the music led Irish dancers to start incorporating sudden, high leaps into the otherwise low stepping intricate footwork.²"
# Posted on December 11th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
Random- heres the footnote-A rising fifth in music occurs when the thematic material played in a certain key is taken up an interval of five steps in a diatonic dominant progression.
ciaranbradley is right then? Yes?
# Posted on December 11th 2009 by shanty
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
That's the footnote,eh? I'm leaving all the theory for Earl (et.al.) to suss out. But, what Ciaran says makes sense to me.
# Posted on December 11th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
I'll go with that-thanks everyone!
# Posted on December 11th 2009 by shanty
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
Random- heres the footnote-A rising fifth in music occurs when the thematic material played in a certain key is taken up an interval of five steps in a diatonic dominant progression.
ciaranbradley is right then? Yes?
No, Ciaran was not talking about what is in that foot note. , although that was the best guess that I saw before we had it as to what the author was talking about. Ciaran was talking about when the melody contains a leap of a fifth, which happens often and repeatedly in Irish music.
The foot note, however Is talking about moving a theme, diatonically, by a fifth. By theme, He may mean sequence (a sequence of notes, or part of a melody) or he may mean a whole phrase or part. Usually what a musicologist would call a theme refers to what Irish musicians would call a part, usually 8 measures. And by Diatonically, it means that no note values are sharpened or flattened( as one note would have to be raised if said theme were to sound identical to the original).
So in this usage, Diatonic is synonymous with Modal. If you play a theme in G major that contains a C note, and then play that same theme starting on a note a fifth up from the original starting note, yet you continue to play C natural in the "transposed" theme. Then you have just done what this author is describing.
# Posted on December 11th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
Where I said 8 measures, I should have said 4, the second 4 are more often variations on the theme.
# Posted on December 11th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
any examples of, "the rising fifth which caused soaring musical passages in otherwise evenly distributed notes."
# Posted on December 11th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
Thanks Earl but it's all pretty confusing to me still. Like Random asked--any examples? The author states this as if it's pretty common stuff in 'Celtic' music.
# Posted on December 11th 2009 by shanty
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
Add me to those puzzled about the term 'rising fifth.' I can see how the term might apply to an upward skip of a fifth in a melody just as 'risiing second,' rising octave' or whatever might be used. It is certainly not a term from any traditional theory I know of. The footnote mentioned by Earl and others implies moving a theme up and not an intervallic jump. I can figure that out. But doing that won't lead to a 'leap' in the dancing as a single jump in a melody might. So, add me to the ones that would like to see or hear some examples.
As to the interval being common in 'Celtic' music that is news to me. As to the shifting of a phrase it seems to me that a fourth is more common than a fifth, but I say that only from what little I can dredge up as I write this and not from any sort of real knowledge. Confusion between fourths and fifths is not that unusual in discussions and that just muddies the water...
# Posted on December 11th 2009 by cboody
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
I am confused as well. I don't see how moving a theme up a fifth
would be interpreted by dancers that way. I also don't think many tunes even do that. So yes you are not alone. I do however understand the meaning of the footnote and what it is describing, but that maybe who wrote it was not a fiddle player. Or maybe there was a coauthor or editor who came in and changed the footnote without knowing what the other author meant.
Like I said. We don't usually move thematic material upwards by a fifth, more likely by an octave when switching between the A and B part. The leap of a 5th and back down is much much more common, but If I wanted to describe that, I would simply calling leaping by an interval of a 5th or, a leap of a 5th.
# Posted on December 11th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
A very bad example of the shift of a whole phrase might be playing Tam Lyn in Dminor and then again in Aminor which I have heard many times. I don't think that is exactly what Earl was describing though.
# Posted on December 11th 2009 by lildogturpy
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
not really. I just think this author jumbled his meaning somehow, or he doesn't know a lot about Irish music. Maybe he casually listened to a couple tunes before making his sweeping generalization, I don't like it. There are generalities to the music like leaping up by a fifth, down by a fifth, up by a sixth, down by a sixth, up by a fifth, down by a fifth, which happens quite often. The same Idea is in all sorts of tunes where the tune does the same leaping pattern by different intervals, and some players add class to these phrases by playing some sort of slightly more melodic versions.
In conclusion, we would all be better off to forget we ever heard the term "rising fifth." It contradicts itself in the context it is presented, and I've never heard it anywhere else, and I consider myself a scholar of music and music theory.
# Posted on December 11th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: What's a 'rising fifth?'
Thanks, along with a few other things in it this makes me wonder about the veracity of the entire chapter....History is great...or is it? :(
# Posted on December 12th 2009 by shanty