The Session >> Discussions >> Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
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Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
This is similar to a previous discussion -Modern vs trad tunes.
Im still compeating at u18 level in the fleadheanna and at the fleadh this year I noticed the diferances in the repetoires of young people.
Many listen to flook and beoga- its is great music, and learn their tunes my self included, but in sessions when I tried to find common ground, few knew tunes such as the copperplate, toss the feathers , the bucks etc...
You could say I lived a sheltered trad life in Tipperary but I listen to the modern groups as well as greats such as the Kilfenora and The Chieftains, Best cd this year for me was the Innisfree Ceili Band Music of North Connaught!,
I'm never going say I've a good repetoire because there are always tunes to be learned. And there are many young people who have the trad tunes.
People have a right to play what they want and I fully support this but I get the feeling the tradtion is being lost among a proportion of my generation.
I had more in common with a 69 year old box player in the village down the road than with people my age at the fleadh.
Rather than being critical Im simply airing a dissapointment.
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Don't panic the same things were said about the Bothy band and I have no doubt were said about the Chieftens vs Coleman
What is important is that you and other young people enjoy your music .
Its swings and roundabouts, tunes come and go and the very best tunes they come back others stay out of fashion its very Darwinian.
a constantly evolving traditition, to freeze it is to kill it .
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Maybe your peers (in age) will come around to learning all the great old tunes in time. Takes some longer to come around to appreciating the old stuff. That's fine.
Meanwhile enjoy all the benefits and fun of playing with your elders. They can be a wealth of tunes and knowledge and crack.
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Hi Premier good post,
I don't think it's a lost tradiition they're still playing tunes, when you hear mcGoldrick or Brian Finnegan playing 'traditional' or old tunes they make them sound brighter, jazzier or add something else, compared to more traditional style fluters.
I just got hold of the Bradley/Clarkson CD now thats interesting flute playing. Theres plenty to explore..
You sound like your taking a good approach and theres plenty of great tunes on the Innishfree CD.
Learn the tunes you like and enjoy, then learn the tunes comonly played in your local sessions then learn common ground tunes.
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Premier flute you beat me to it - were you watching Nicholas Carolan's RTE1 programme last night?
It was a Job of Journeywork programme recorded back in 1979 with Ciaran MacMathúna and it seemed like a totally different era. Performers included the highly talented Shannon bothers and John Carlos (I think Longford). The tunes were all the good old standards and what struck me was the magic in the music when, after playing a slow air, Séamus launched into the Sally Gardens accompanied by the other musicians. It really had that "Cooley" feel with accompanying whoops, etc and to me this is what the tradition is really all about.
Most current programmes (Geanntraí, etc) feature highly talented musicians playing new and interesting tunes but there does seem to be a lack of that earthy perormance with the tried and tested old standards. All is not lost as there are many musicians still playing this type of thing (Des Mulkere and Charlie Harris are just two that immediately come to mind) but bI do feel that this style of old music needs more exposure particularly for the benefit of today's younger musicians.
As for younger people accessing the older music this was the main reason that Comhaltas produced the Foinn Seisiún series of books and CDs (330 tunes in all) so that youngsters could get these tunes in addition to the more obscure ones normally favoured by music teachers.
Anyway in my own opinion I think that there's room for both types of music (in fact it's a very good thing for musicians to have their own special favourites or tunes that are particularly suited to their own instruments) so long as we don't lose sight of the bigger picture. If we ever lost our old music the tradition would become very "one dimensional" and sterile but while there are people around who enjoy the draíocht or NYAH I don't think that there's much danger this will ever happen.
I personally prefer sticking to old tunes to recently composed tunes which will probably be forgotten in a few years. As Harry Bradley puts it, "A good old tune will never age as fast as a bad new one!"
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
I think it's only natural for young people to play flashy and too fast, I did it as a teenager and so did the others that were learning at the same time. But over the years playing and appreciation changes dramatically, assuming you keep an open mind.
It's a pet hate of mine when older people complain about flashy youngsters, especially adult learners who don't understand what it's like to play as a child or young adult when most of your mates are doing other things.
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
That's a good point slainte, and it's worth mentioning that the other players in the from these bands are also great players in a more traditional set up.
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Have to agree with you Slainte to a certain extent but only that whenever there's a large quantity of anything there will always be a certain amount of dross. One example that immediately comes to mind is "O'Neill's 1001" which in my opinion contains many forgettable tunes in addition to some all time greats. There are some great newly composeds around too (Maurice Lennon's "Master's Daughter", "Stone of Destiny" and "Road to Garrison", any number of Tommy People's tunes- "Green Fields of Glentown", "Black Pat", "Jocelyn Tree" - I could go on most of the day!) that I'm sure will stand the test of time.
I think where Harry is coming from is all these young bands that come along and feel they have to do something original. Many of the compositions that they trot out are no more than a series of phrases or re-hashed existing tunes.
By the way I forgot to mention in my original post that John Carlos was featured from a more recent period (1990) playing flute rather than banjo and it sure was mighty music. Does anyone know if he's still playing as I feel he's another musician who's not getting the exposure he deserves.
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Keep the faith, Premier -
Whatever your taste in ITM (or ITMish), it is out there somewhere, being performed and recorded, electric and acoustic.
And fear not: The good and lasting things will survive, somewhere, while the novelties will come and go, and a few of them vanish into the mists of failed experiments.
(Guess that was a verbose lot of nothing, eh?)
But: IMHO, as I perceive it, listening music has seriously taken over from dance music, in the traditional musical realm. Without the demands of dancers keeping a tempo and following their figures, the music is no longer under the same constraints of rhythm, accents, and form. Just listen to the stuff, and imagine ceili dancing to it. (I do not think so, but that is just me).
Nowadays especially, you could compose/arrange a reel that is not really catchy for dancing (still has to be a REEL, structurally, of course), but is just grand for listening and fun to play. As listening music, it will survive, but might not have as simply a dance tune.
This evolution is, IMHO, a fine thing, but the music is not all the same music that first grabbed me long ago, nor what really attracts me now. Forgive me, I would gladly trade twenty Flook recordings and maybe a Lunasa for one early Chieftains, or The Irish Tradition.
In short: I would rather hear something directly from the dancing, and that more echoes of participation, not sitting-there-and-listening music.
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Keep the faith, Premier -
Whatever your taste in ITM (or ITMish), it is out there, being performed and recorded, electric and acoustic.
And fear not: The good and lasting things will survive, somewhere, while the novelties will come and go, and a few of them vanish into the mists of failed experiments.
(Guess that was a verbose lot of nothing, eh?)
But:::::: IMHO, listening music has taken over from dance music, in the traditional musical realm. Without the demands of dancers keeping a tempo and following their figures, the music is no longer under the same constraints of rhythm, accents, and form. Just listen to the stuff, and imagine ceili dancing to it. (I do not think so, but that is just me).
Nowadays especially, you could compose/arrange a reel that is not really catchy for dancing (still has to be a REEL, structurally, of course), but is just grand for listening and fun to play. As listening music, it will survive, but might not have as simply a dance tune.
This evolution is, IMHO, a fine thing, but the music is not all the same music that first grabbed me long ago, nor what really attracts me now. Forgive me, I would gladly trade twenty Flook recordings and maybe a Lunasa for one early Chieftains, or The Irish Tradition.
In short: I would rather hear something directly from the dancing, and that more echoes of participation, not sitting-there-and-listening music.
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
And vice versa, Bogman. Check all the sample clips of this recording of very young musicians: http://www.cic.ie/product.asp?idproduct=1220 It's a shame I forgot to order a copy of it last week.
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Thanks Slainte for that Comhaltaslive clip with John Carlos and Paddy Ryan. Not only is it good old music but it's very appropriate to this thread in that you can see the development of a musician throughout his lifetime. Last night's RTE programme started out in 1979 with John Carlos (the young sixties rebel with long hair tied back belting out tunes on the banjo) through 1990 where a mature John played some very solid flute music. Here in 1998 he's playing along with Paddy Ryan where the music is in a more archival setting as he puts it into a context thus imparting information to a new generation. As has been said already by posters on this thread there's little fear for the future of the Irish tradition.
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
I've always liked the phrase "the living tradition" because that's what it is and should be. It wasn't invented at a single point in time and shouldn't be kept there, preserved as if in a museum. It is music of and for the people and lives and grows within all of us who love it.
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
The newer, "hip" bands get the kids interested in playing and listening. Once you've been playing awhile, old-school ITM is much more enjoyable. I remember being a crazy Solas fan and thinking Moving Cloud sounded exactly the same the whole album through. After a few years of playing and listening, I still love Solas, but I really enjoy Moving Cloud and I appreciate them more. The young bucks will play fast and play crazy, funky new tunes. Let them. We'll come around to the old school eventually.
Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
This is similar to a previous discussion -Modern vs trad tunes.
Im still compeating at u18 level in the fleadheanna and at the fleadh this year I noticed the diferances in the repetoires of young people.
Many listen to flook and beoga- its is great music, and learn their tunes my self included, but in sessions when I tried to find common ground, few knew tunes such as the copperplate, toss the feathers , the bucks etc...
You could say I lived a sheltered trad life in Tipperary but I listen to the modern groups as well as greats such as the Kilfenora and The Chieftains, Best cd this year for me was the Innisfree Ceili Band Music of North Connaught!,
I'm never going say I've a good repetoire because there are always tunes to be learned. And there are many young people who have the trad tunes.
People have a right to play what they want and I fully support this but I get the feeling the tradtion is being lost among a proportion of my generation.
I had more in common with a 69 year old box player in the village down the road than with people my age at the fleadh.
Rather than being critical Im simply airing a dissapointment.
# Posted on November 28th 2009 by premier
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Don't panic the same things were said about the Bothy band and I have no doubt were said about the Chieftens vs Coleman
What is important is that you and other young people enjoy your music .
Its swings and roundabouts, tunes come and go and the very best tunes they come back others stay out of fashion its very Darwinian.
a constantly evolving traditition, to freeze it is to kill it .
# Posted on November 28th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Maybe your peers (in age) will come around to learning all the great old tunes in time. Takes some longer to come around to appreciating the old stuff. That's fine.
Meanwhile enjoy all the benefits and fun of playing with your elders. They can be a wealth of tunes and knowledge and crack.
# Posted on November 28th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Hi Premier good post,
I don't think it's a lost tradiition they're still playing tunes, when you hear mcGoldrick or Brian Finnegan playing 'traditional' or old tunes they make them sound brighter, jazzier or add something else, compared to more traditional style fluters.
I just got hold of the Bradley/Clarkson CD now thats interesting flute playing. Theres plenty to explore..
You sound like your taking a good approach and theres plenty of great tunes on the Innishfree CD.
Learn the tunes you like and enjoy, then learn the tunes comonly played in your local sessions then learn common ground tunes.
Keep the fluting going.
ATB
Andy
# Posted on November 28th 2009 by Andyras1
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Premier flute you beat me to it - were you watching Nicholas Carolan's RTE1 programme last night?
It was a Job of Journeywork programme recorded back in 1979 with Ciaran MacMathúna and it seemed like a totally different era. Performers included the highly talented Shannon bothers and John Carlos (I think Longford). The tunes were all the good old standards and what struck me was the magic in the music when, after playing a slow air, Séamus launched into the Sally Gardens accompanied by the other musicians. It really had that "Cooley" feel with accompanying whoops, etc and to me this is what the tradition is really all about.
Most current programmes (Geanntraí, etc) feature highly talented musicians playing new and interesting tunes but there does seem to be a lack of that earthy perormance with the tried and tested old standards. All is not lost as there are many musicians still playing this type of thing (Des Mulkere and Charlie Harris are just two that immediately come to mind) but bI do feel that this style of old music needs more exposure particularly for the benefit of today's younger musicians.
As for younger people accessing the older music this was the main reason that Comhaltas produced the Foinn Seisiún series of books and CDs (330 tunes in all) so that youngsters could get these tunes in addition to the more obscure ones normally favoured by music teachers.
Anyway in my own opinion I think that there's room for both types of music (in fact it's a very good thing for musicians to have their own special favourites or tunes that are particularly suited to their own instruments) so long as we don't lose sight of the bigger picture. If we ever lost our old music the tradition would become very "one dimensional" and sterile but while there are people around who enjoy the draíocht or NYAH I don't think that there's much danger this will ever happen.
# Posted on November 28th 2009 by Bannerman
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Fortunately, Mike McGoldrick can still play old traditional tunes without making them jazzier: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h_hnvJle2E
I personally prefer sticking to old tunes to recently composed tunes which will probably be forgotten in a few years. As Harry Bradley puts it, "A good old tune will never age as fast as a bad new one!"
# Posted on November 28th 2009 by slainte
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
I think it's only natural for young people to play flashy and too fast, I did it as a teenager and so did the others that were learning at the same time. But over the years playing and appreciation changes dramatically, assuming you keep an open mind.
It's a pet hate of mine when older people complain about flashy youngsters, especially adult learners who don't understand what it's like to play as a child or young adult when most of your mates are doing other things.
# Posted on November 28th 2009 by bogman
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
That's a good point slainte, and it's worth mentioning that the other players in the from these bands are also great players in a more traditional set up.
# Posted on November 28th 2009 by bogman
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Have to agree with you Slainte to a certain extent but only that whenever there's a large quantity of anything there will always be a certain amount of dross. One example that immediately comes to mind is "O'Neill's 1001" which in my opinion contains many forgettable tunes in addition to some all time greats. There are some great newly composeds around too (Maurice Lennon's "Master's Daughter", "Stone of Destiny" and "Road to Garrison", any number of Tommy People's tunes- "Green Fields of Glentown", "Black Pat", "Jocelyn Tree" - I could go on most of the day!) that I'm sure will stand the test of time.
I think where Harry is coming from is all these young bands that come along and feel they have to do something original. Many of the compositions that they trot out are no more than a series of phrases or re-hashed existing tunes.
By the way I forgot to mention in my original post that John Carlos was featured from a more recent period (1990) playing flute rather than banjo and it sure was mighty music. Does anyone know if he's still playing as I feel he's another musician who's not getting the exposure he deserves.
# Posted on November 28th 2009 by Bannerman
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Keep the faith, Premier -
Whatever your taste in ITM (or ITMish), it is out there somewhere, being performed and recorded, electric and acoustic.
And fear not: The good and lasting things will survive, somewhere, while the novelties will come and go, and a few of them vanish into the mists of failed experiments.
(Guess that was a verbose lot of nothing, eh?)
But: IMHO, as I perceive it, listening music has seriously taken over from dance music, in the traditional musical realm. Without the demands of dancers keeping a tempo and following their figures, the music is no longer under the same constraints of rhythm, accents, and form. Just listen to the stuff, and imagine ceili dancing to it. (I do not think so, but that is just me).
Nowadays especially, you could compose/arrange a reel that is not really catchy for dancing (still has to be a REEL, structurally, of course), but is just grand for listening and fun to play. As listening music, it will survive, but might not have as simply a dance tune.
This evolution is, IMHO, a fine thing, but the music is not all the same music that first grabbed me long ago, nor what really attracts me now. Forgive me, I would gladly trade twenty Flook recordings and maybe a Lunasa for one early Chieftains, or The Irish Tradition.
In short: I would rather hear something directly from the dancing, and that more echoes of participation, not sitting-there-and-listening music.
My two cents.
# Posted on November 28th 2009 by Piece
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Keep the faith, Premier -
Whatever your taste in ITM (or ITMish), it is out there, being performed and recorded, electric and acoustic.
And fear not: The good and lasting things will survive, somewhere, while the novelties will come and go, and a few of them vanish into the mists of failed experiments.
(Guess that was a verbose lot of nothing, eh?)
But:::::: IMHO, listening music has taken over from dance music, in the traditional musical realm. Without the demands of dancers keeping a tempo and following their figures, the music is no longer under the same constraints of rhythm, accents, and form. Just listen to the stuff, and imagine ceili dancing to it. (I do not think so, but that is just me).
Nowadays especially, you could compose/arrange a reel that is not really catchy for dancing (still has to be a REEL, structurally, of course), but is just grand for listening and fun to play. As listening music, it will survive, but might not have as simply a dance tune.
This evolution is, IMHO, a fine thing, but the music is not all the same music that first grabbed me long ago, nor what really attracts me now. Forgive me, I would gladly trade twenty Flook recordings and maybe a Lunasa for one early Chieftains, or The Irish Tradition.
In short: I would rather hear something directly from the dancing, and that more echoes of participation, not sitting-there-and-listening music.
My two cents.
# Posted on November 28th 2009 by Piece
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
And vice versa, Bogman. Check all the sample clips of this recording of very young musicians: http://www.cic.ie/product.asp?idproduct=1220 It's a shame I forgot to order a copy of it last week.
I enjoy watching John Carlos play the old standard set with Paddy Ryan: http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_270_3_paddy_ryan_and_john_carlos
And a clip of him playing jigs on the banjo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrW3Byog9LM
# Posted on November 28th 2009 by slainte
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Pardon my cross-posting through your conversation -
unintentional, I am a slow typer and it has caught me before.
# Posted on November 28th 2009 by Piece
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
We're all old and slow in typing, aren't we?
# Posted on November 28th 2009 by slainte
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Thanks Slainte for that Comhaltaslive clip with John Carlos and Paddy Ryan. Not only is it good old music but it's very appropriate to this thread in that you can see the development of a musician throughout his lifetime. Last night's RTE programme started out in 1979 with John Carlos (the young sixties rebel with long hair tied back belting out tunes on the banjo) through 1990 where a mature John played some very solid flute music. Here in 1998 he's playing along with Paddy Ryan where the music is in a more archival setting as he puts it into a context thus imparting information to a new generation. As has been said already by posters on this thread there's little fear for the future of the Irish tradition.
# Posted on November 28th 2009 by Bannerman
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
hear hear! i am with you premier!!!
# Posted on November 28th 2009 by irishmuso
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
I've always liked the phrase "the living tradition" because that's what it is and should be. It wasn't invented at a single point in time and shouldn't be kept there, preserved as if in a museum. It is music of and for the people and lives and grows within all of us who love it.
# Posted on November 28th 2009 by SineadE
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
Thank you Ireland for all the music!!!
# Posted on November 29th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
It shouldn't be Flook/Beoga vs Kilfenora/The Chieftains, it should be Flook/Beoga & Kilfenora/Chieftains, I love them all!
# Posted on November 29th 2009 by tirvaluk
Re: Flook/Beoga vs The Kilfenora/The Chieftains, A tradition Lost?
The newer, "hip" bands get the kids interested in playing and listening. Once you've been playing awhile, old-school ITM is much more enjoyable. I remember being a crazy Solas fan and thinking Moving Cloud sounded exactly the same the whole album through. After a few years of playing and listening, I still love Solas, but I really enjoy Moving Cloud and I appreciate them more. The young bucks will play fast and play crazy, funky new tunes. Let them. We'll come around to the old school eventually.
# Posted on December 13th 2009 by Zazzaliss