You're at a session, and someone strikes up a tune that was already played earlier on in the evening.
Do you:
(a) Smile wryly, and carry on playing?
(b) Wince, but still carry on playing?
(c) Put your instrument down in disgust?
(d) After the set has finished, suggest that the musician who was the source of the repeated tune buys a round of drinks for his/her fellow sessioners?
(e) None of these things (state what you do).
And should there be dispensation for the musician concerned if he/she couldn't be expected to know, e.g. because they weren't at the session from the beginning?
i) Some eedjit with a huge PA and no sense of timing has just murdered it. Then it's only polite to resurrect it as quickly as possible.
ii) It's tune of the moment, only been introduced for couple of weeks, every body loves it, and there are a couple of people who almost have it except for a couple of notes and they request it again. (though it's more fun to play it either much much faster than the first time, or much much slower)
All other scenarios (including the caveat above where he/she couldn't be expected to know, e.g. because they weren't at the session from the beginning) elicit the loud response from everyone of "PLAYED IT ALREADY" coupled with loud and deriding laughter. At which point the onus is clearly on the offender to twist it into another tune as cleverly as they can. (Which usually means flailing around for a few bars until you land on something you recognise). And if you fail to this this either quickly or cleverly enough, it is the right of any other player to immediately hijack the set.
I think a person who can't handle playing a tune twice in one session has a real problem. I mean, a session is all about having fun, and shouldn't be all that serious. If it's repeated by the same guy in every session, just comment on it, nice and simple.
If I were to play the same tune twice for some reason and my fellow sessioners decided to pull the (d) alternative, I'd probably not take it seriously. And if it would turn up to be a serious statement, I would probably just leave.
I recently walked in on a session, sat down and was asked to start one, repeated a jig and was let away with it, it was only mentioned casually when i went outside for a cigarette by an acquaintance who was there.
certainly unless someone personally starts one twice or something its just one of those things that happen.
Look on a session as being rather like a conversation - in a pub.
If you talked about the big match earlier in the evening, and someone comes in later and says "hey lads did anyone watch the match?" - what would you do? Normal people would engage with the newcomer at least to the extent of acknowledging the topic, and many would indeed go through a lot of what had already been said earlier. This is the equivalent of playing the tune again - with, at worst, a wry smile.
Just occasionally the assembled company might reply that this topic had been covered already and lets not go over it again. In a session context this is not so easily done, as it would be unpardonably rude to stop the tune, so just play the tune and then have a good laugh afterwards about the fact that this is the second (third / fourth - - - -) time tonight.
I suggest that the conversational equivalent of "(c) Put your instrument down in disgust?" would mark you as a social inadequate who really should make a bit more effort to go to a different pub and stop being such a selfish, self important pr*ck. And in a session context . . . . well work it out for yourself.
For the record, and speaking personally, I always play along with any tune (if I know it) that someone has started, even if it a hackneyed one, and even if it was played earlier in the evening.
I do think though that there should be some mutally-agreed and good humoured way of dealing with repeated tunes.
Someone was telling me the other day that there is a "penalty" imposed at the Sidmouth Folk Festival (England) upon anyone singing "The Wild Rover" at a session ... !
Depends - if it is a good tune and the person was not there before then fine. If it is a tune that someone else started earlier on but is resurrected again by the piper because he always plays that tune in that set and his little world would probably collapse around him if he did something different then I want to snap his bass drone off and do something nasty with it.
Of course they should be treated to derision and shouts of "Repetition". I see it like a lights flashing thing with AAARROOOGAAA. It's funny. Especially when it's not their fault 'cause they came in late. Serves 'em right for being late. And it's fun to try to cleverly dig you way out of it. And it's fun to jump in and try and hijack it. And where we play, it's traditional.
You can't be precious about it. I especially like it when it's someone's favorite set and as soon as they start the set everybody sniggers 'cause they know what's coming so you can build up to the moment. In fact, it's good fun to early on deliberately play the middle tune of someone's favorite set who you know is gonna be late.
Please disregard that previous post. It should have read:
"Depends - if it is a good tune and the person was not there before then fine. If it is a tune that someone else started earlier on but is resurrected again by the [insert player here] because he/she always plays that tune in that set and his/her little world would probably collapse around him/her if he did something different then I would be less happy."
This is a good reason for bringing multiple instruments to a session. If a particular tune comes up more than once in a session, I play it on a different instrument - unless it comes up halfway through a set*, in which case (a), (b) and (d).
If the offending tune happens to be a 12-part version of The Mason's Apron, then (c).
*I would never dream of swapping instruments in the middle of a set - unless I were forced to by somebody starting a tune in Bb or E while I'm playing a D whistle.
Learn more tunes and it's less likely to happen. When you start a tune, choose it primarily on its musical merits, not on its popularity. Play through the first couple of phrases, i. to see if it has been played yet and ii. to see if anyone else plays it.
(If nobody else knows it, it's up to you to decide whether it would be socially acceptable to go ahead and play it anyway. Anyone who criticizes others for playing tunes that are not part of the common repertoire is missing the point.)
Well, I would have to agree with most of what Llig says (in this instance, anyway!) ...
... With the exception of his ploy of deliberately hijacking someone's favourite tuneset. That seems a little underhand (unless of course it's someone you know quite well, and also know that they would take the joke in good spirit).
Having said that though, I wouldn't agree with with not starting a particular tune just because "so-and-so always does that one". The tunes are common property, after all.
One of my favourite people, to share music and a laugh with, did that often. I'd tease him about it, sometimes, other times I'd just let it pass and we'd move on to something else. He died this Autumn. I'd give anything to repeat tunes with him again... They were always old standards, and it was always a joy as I never tired of them or him.
As with all things, sometimes there are reasons behind the little irritation, sometimes it is healthier not to let it get under your skin and blown out of proportion.
In another case, a late arrival, who that night didn't once bother to ask if we'd played something already, repeatedly interjected tune sets they'd learned from a well known Comhaltas source, in a stilted 'learned-by-the-dots way. No, I wasn't rude, at least not directly, I just didn't bother playing along with their disrespectful interruptions. I say disrespectful, this person isn't long participating in this particular session, and yet felt the need to start up these stilted tune sets several times across the evening. Also, I'm not long there either, so it wasn't my place to take them aside. I followed the old guard there and kept shtrum. I enjoyed enough sets in the evening, listening and joining in, that this slight irritation wasn't worthy of my worry...
OrganicPeat's suggestion of starting more obscure tunes can only work if the session is well-attended on the the evening in question. If you are only few in number, you pretty much need to stick to tunes that you feel that the others would probably know - in other words, the commonly-played ones.
b, a & e... I forgot to be specific, and both illustrations given were of tunes being repeated that had already had air. In the case of the second PIA they'd been handled a lot better too...
You all know the player who tries to start off the set with a tune from the last set just played. It's in their head, and they don't remember what the tunes in the last set were.
If someone inadvertantly launches into a tune that was played earlier, I'll go along with it - although if they want to hammer away at it six or seven times I might get a little tired of it by the end. But I agree that if it's part of their pet set, they should probably have an alternate to go to. And I admit that I've occasionally picked a tune that is part of one of the regular sets, just to see what happens. But I do think that if someone comes in late, they can be forgiven for not knowing what was played - how would they know? Give 'em a break.
We used to operate a yellow and red card system - first offence was a yellow card resulting in frowns and general mockery, second offence was a red card resulting in buying a round for the sessioneers.
We would play along, and then tease the person who started the tune because they were late (I have never encountered anyone who started a tune they knew had already been played). Once, recently, a latecomer suggested a tune we had already played. But earlier in the night it had been played by a trio, and now it was being played by six people, and some of us would be playing it on different instruments. So I suggested we go ahead anyhow, and was glad we did, as it had a whole different feel.
"You all know the player who tries to start off the set with a tune from the last set just played. It's in their head, and they don't remember what the tunes in the last set were."
@Sunnybear - sadly, not all session pubs have a bar tab for musicians. And those that do quite often have a bar tab limit.
I quite like the idea of a "card" system, as suggest by SineadE in this thread.
With one caveat. If the repeated tune in question is of the kind that would be off-scale on the tune cheese-o-meter, you should skip the yellow card, and go straight for red ...
"Personally, I take out my lightsabre and slice their hands off".
Are you one of the Red-Eye Knights then, Joe CSS?
If so, did you know that light sabres are great in combat and they work well on salami too?
Speaking as a backup musician/accompanist who doesn't play melody, most of the tunes are similar to me because I use a lot of the same chords and same chord patterns for different tunes.
Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
You're at a session, and someone strikes up a tune that was already played earlier on in the evening.
Do you:
(a) Smile wryly, and carry on playing?
(b) Wince, but still carry on playing?
(c) Put your instrument down in disgust?
(d) After the set has finished, suggest that the musician who was the source of the repeated tune buys a round of drinks for his/her fellow sessioners?
(e) None of these things (state what you do).
And should there be dispensation for the musician concerned if he/she couldn't be expected to know, e.g. because they weren't at the session from the beginning?
Your thoughts please, sessioneers!
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
It depends on:
i) Some eedjit with a huge PA and no sense of timing has just murdered it. Then it's only polite to resurrect it as quickly as possible.
ii) It's tune of the moment, only been introduced for couple of weeks, every body loves it, and there are a couple of people who almost have it except for a couple of notes and they request it again. (though it's more fun to play it either much much faster than the first time, or much much slower)
All other scenarios (including the caveat above where he/she couldn't be expected to know, e.g. because they weren't at the session from the beginning) elicit the loud response from everyone of "PLAYED IT ALREADY" coupled with loud and deriding laughter. At which point the onus is clearly on the offender to twist it into another tune as cleverly as they can. (Which usually means flailing around for a few bars until you land on something you recognise). And if you fail to this this either quickly or cleverly enough, it is the right of any other player to immediately hijack the set.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by ...
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
I think a person who can't handle playing a tune twice in one session has a real problem. I mean, a session is all about having fun, and shouldn't be all that serious. If it's repeated by the same guy in every session, just comment on it, nice and simple.
If I were to play the same tune twice for some reason and my fellow sessioners decided to pull the (d) alternative, I'd probably not take it seriously. And if it would turn up to be a serious statement, I would probably just leave.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by -Abraxas
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
A person who can't handle loud and deriding laughter has a real problem. I mean, a session is all about having fun, and shouldn't be all that serious.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by ...
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
I recently walked in on a session, sat down and was asked to start one, repeated a jig and was let away with it, it was only mentioned casually when i went outside for a cigarette by an acquaintance who was there.
certainly unless someone personally starts one twice or something its just one of those things that happen.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by dlunney
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
There really are some people who take option c.
Look on a session as being rather like a conversation - in a pub.
If you talked about the big match earlier in the evening, and someone comes in later and says "hey lads did anyone watch the match?" - what would you do? Normal people would engage with the newcomer at least to the extent of acknowledging the topic, and many would indeed go through a lot of what had already been said earlier. This is the equivalent of playing the tune again - with, at worst, a wry smile.
Just occasionally the assembled company might reply that this topic had been covered already and lets not go over it again. In a session context this is not so easily done, as it would be unpardonably rude to stop the tune, so just play the tune and then have a good laugh afterwards about the fact that this is the second (third / fourth - - - -) time tonight.
I suggest that the conversational equivalent of "(c) Put your instrument down in disgust?" would mark you as a social inadequate who really should make a bit more effort to go to a different pub and stop being such a selfish, self important pr*ck. And in a session context . . . . well work it out for yourself.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by showaddydadito
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
For the record, and speaking personally, I always play along with any tune (if I know it) that someone has started, even if it a hackneyed one, and even if it was played earlier in the evening.
I do think though that there should be some mutally-agreed and good humoured way of dealing with repeated tunes.
Someone was telling me the other day that there is a "penalty" imposed at the Sidmouth Folk Festival (England) upon anyone singing "The Wild Rover" at a session ... !
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
They sould be treeated to derision and shouts of "Repetition".
So if you arrive late
1) bring a note from your parents
2) If you have a tongue in your head ask "have they played .this tune yet?"
Unless it is a tune you are teaching to the beginners - play it every hour.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by geoffwright
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
Depends - if it is a good tune and the person was not there before then fine. If it is a tune that someone else started earlier on but is resurrected again by the piper because he always plays that tune in that set and his little world would probably collapse around him if he did something different then I want to snap his bass drone off and do something nasty with it.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
Of course they should be treated to derision and shouts of "Repetition". I see it like a lights flashing thing with AAARROOOGAAA. It's funny. Especially when it's not their fault 'cause they came in late. Serves 'em right for being late. And it's fun to try to cleverly dig you way out of it. And it's fun to jump in and try and hijack it. And where we play, it's traditional.
You can't be precious about it. I especially like it when it's someone's favorite set and as soon as they start the set everybody sniggers 'cause they know what's coming so you can build up to the moment. In fact, it's good fun to early on deliberately play the middle tune of someone's favorite set who you know is gonna be late.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by ...
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
Oh, err sorry. Was that a bit too personal?
Please disregard that previous post. It should have read:
"Depends - if it is a good tune and the person was not there before then fine. If it is a tune that someone else started earlier on but is resurrected again by the [insert player here] because he/she always plays that tune in that set and his/her little world would probably collapse around him/her if he did something different then I would be less happy."
Entirely hypothetical of course.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
ha ha, yeah.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by ...
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
And I say that despite only being the guitarist. Lets face it, for me all the tunes are the same.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
This is a good reason for bringing multiple instruments to a session. If a particular tune comes up more than once in a session, I play it on a different instrument - unless it comes up halfway through a set*, in which case (a), (b) and (d).
If the offending tune happens to be a 12-part version of The Mason's Apron, then (c).
*I would never dream of swapping instruments in the middle of a set - unless I were forced to by somebody starting a tune in Bb or E while I'm playing a D whistle.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
Learn more tunes and it's less likely to happen. When you start a tune, choose it primarily on its musical merits, not on its popularity. Play through the first couple of phrases, i. to see if it has been played yet and ii. to see if anyone else plays it.
(If nobody else knows it, it's up to you to decide whether it would be socially acceptable to go ahead and play it anyway. Anyone who criticizes others for playing tunes that are not part of the common repertoire is missing the point.)
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
Well, I would have to agree with most of what Llig says (in this instance, anyway!) ...
... With the exception of his ploy of deliberately hijacking someone's favourite tuneset. That seems a little underhand (unless of course it's someone you know quite well, and also know that they would take the joke in good spirit).
Having said that though, I wouldn't agree with with not starting a particular tune just because "so-and-so always does that one". The tunes are common property, after all.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
One of my favourite people, to share music and a laugh with, did that often. I'd tease him about it, sometimes, other times I'd just let it pass and we'd move on to something else. He died this Autumn. I'd give anything to repeat tunes with him again... They were always old standards, and it was always a joy as I never tired of them or him.
As with all things, sometimes there are reasons behind the little irritation, sometimes it is healthier not to let it get under your skin and blown out of proportion.
In another case, a late arrival, who that night didn't once bother to ask if we'd played something already, repeatedly interjected tune sets they'd learned from a well known Comhaltas source, in a stilted 'learned-by-the-dots way. No, I wasn't rude, at least not directly, I just didn't bother playing along with their disrespectful interruptions. I say disrespectful, this person isn't long participating in this particular session, and yet felt the need to start up these stilted tune sets several times across the evening. Also, I'm not long there either, so it wasn't my place to take them aside. I followed the old guard there and kept shtrum. I enjoyed enough sets in the evening, listening and joining in, that this slight irritation wasn't worthy of my worry...
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
OrganicPeat's suggestion of starting more obscure tunes can only work if the session is well-attended on the the evening in question. If you are only few in number, you pretty much need to stick to tunes that you feel that the others would probably know - in other words, the commonly-played ones.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
Point (e) would presumably cover occasions when I forget what has been played more than 10 minutes ago
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
.. or even forgetting how "Father Kelly" goes, lazyhound!
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
b, a & e... I forgot to be specific, and both illustrations given were of tunes being repeated that had already had air. In the case of the second PIA they'd been handled a lot better too...
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by ceolachan
& ~ example 2 was also a case of that PIA abusing the session, the music, and all present ~ by swinging a very loud instrument...
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
You all know the player who tries to start off the set with a tune from the last set just played. It's in their head, and they don't remember what the tunes in the last set were.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
If someone inadvertantly launches into a tune that was played earlier, I'll go along with it - although if they want to hammer away at it six or seven times I might get a little tired of it by the end. But I agree that if it's part of their pet set, they should probably have an alternate to go to. And I admit that I've occasionally picked a tune that is part of one of the regular sets, just to see what happens. But I do think that if someone comes in late, they can be forgiven for not knowing what was played - how would they know? Give 'em a break.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
Things happen. Who cares?
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Alex Wilding
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
option d disturbs me the mot
you mean you have to pay for your drinks????
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Sunnybear
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
Personally, I take out my lightsabre and slice their hands off.
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Joe CSS
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
We used to operate a yellow and red card system - first offence was a yellow card resulting in frowns and general mockery, second offence was a red card resulting in buying a round for the sessioneers.
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by SineadE
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
We would play along, and then tease the person who started the tune because they were late (I have never encountered anyone who started a tune they knew had already been played). Once, recently, a latecomer suggested a tune we had already played. But earlier in the night it had been played by a trio, and now it was being played by six people, and some of us would be playing it on different instruments. So I suggested we go ahead anyhow, and was glad we did, as it had a whole different feel.
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
"You all know the player who tries to start off the set with a tune from the last set just played. It's in their head, and they don't remember what the tunes in the last set were."
Strange... I've never met one of them.
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by mutatis mutandis
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
@Sunnybear - sadly, not all session pubs have a bar tab for musicians. And those that do quite often have a bar tab limit.
I quite like the idea of a "card" system, as suggest by SineadE in this thread.
With one caveat. If the repeated tune in question is of the kind that would be off-scale on the tune cheese-o-meter, you should skip the yellow card, and go straight for red ...
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
Yellow Card!
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by continuo
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
Why so, continuo?
Are you in favour of mulitiple repeats of cheesy tunes?
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
So how about starting the same thread twice in one week?/month?
- chris
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
it does not matter how many times it's played if everyone enjoys playing it
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by joyce1
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
Well, joyce1 what about 20 instances (say) "Winster Gallop" being played in the course of one evening, then?
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
.. you probably wouldn't even survive trying to play that tune once, in most sessions ...
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
To pick up on ramblingpitchfork's idea, what should we do when people on The Session want to continually replay the "Is A Session A Performance?" set?
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
A. Buy a pint for every member of thesession.org
)
(And a quart for Jeremy, of course
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: Twice in One Night - Straw Poll !
"Personally, I take out my lightsabre and slice their hands off".
Are you one of the Red-Eye Knights then, Joe CSS?
If so, did you know that light sabres are great in combat and they work well on salami too?
Speaking as a backup musician/accompanist who doesn't play melody, most of the tunes are similar to me because I use a lot of the same chords and same chord patterns for different tunes.
# Posted on December 5th 2009 by fauxcelt