Hello there! This is my first time to post a discussion at The Session, so if necessary, please give me a little grace.
I am interested in learning of all the different possible ways a fiddler could execute a cross-bowing pattern, in hopes I could diversify what I do personally. I had originally learned a pattern from Matt Cranitch's Irish Fiddle book, which is used consistently throughout the book, and in my naivety, I thought all fiddle players used the same bowing. However, I had a lesson with the great fiddle player Brian Conway at a recent Irish music camp, and he enlightened me by showing me that there are several other bowing possibilities.
What I had originally learned from Matt Cranitch's book is as follows (using the first two measures of "The Killavil Reel" as an example):
(vD2A)(uD BD)vAD|(vD2A)(uD BD)vAD (You'll probably have to paste it into an ABC program to make any sense of it).
For the other form of cross-bowing pattern (such as the B part of Dinkie's, which I'm using for an example here), Matt Cranitch would bow it as such:
vaA vA/A/(A a)(uAbA)
Brian Conway has a rather unique way he personally likes to execute cross-bowings. This is what he does (back to using the Killavil Reel as an example):
vD2uA(vD BDA)uD|vD2uA(vD BDA)uD
I find this way much more challenging, but it is certainly a valid option.
So anyway, if you wouldn't mind please sharing how you personally play cross-bowings and all the different methods you've seen out there, I'd appreciate it.
There are as many ways to bow a phrase as there are ways to play a phrase. Some of them good, most of them not so good.
One of the really important things about this music is your personal freedom. You must learn to do it on your own. If you follow patterns you will be putting on a straight jacket.
I'm sorry if that's not the answer you are looking for. And I'm sorry for the people who will no doubt chime in after me and give you bowing patterns to practice. But the final word on the matter is that you must ultimately develop the ability to make up your bowing on the fly.
I usually don't think about bowing, but I do like to downbow on the up beat whether subtly or with a loud barking effect. I mostly agree with llig leahcim, although I do sometimes allow my conscious mind to dictate bowing to me for certain difficult phrases of tunes, but I don't think of patterns so much as emphasis. (Where do I switch direction? am I emphasizing down bows or up bows? How many notes can I slur together without fecking up the rhythm?
It's worth noting that the day I feel I really "got it" in terms of my bowing, I was not trying to do anything particular, It just came to me and I think I was learning Colonel Mcbain or Paddy Cronin's
I was expecting someone to make the point that there is no "right" way to bow anything, and you should just bow it however is comfortable for you and brings out the sound you want. However, for someone like me, coming from a classical background, that just doesn't work - I end up with classical bowings! Fortunately, I've been playing long enough now that this isn't the case very much anymore, but nonetheless, I feel that newcomers to Irish music need at least some framework to work with.
However, specific to my original request, if you read carefully, you'll see I'm not looking for one specific "cure-all" bowing pattern to use on cross-bowings. Rather, I've been using one, and only one, bowing pattern much too long, and would like to learn of some of the other possibilities out there. So I'm soliciting for others' opinions in an effort to diversify what I do personally and not be locked into just one method of bowing. So I hope that puts your concern to rest...
Try playing tunes with long continuous bow strokes, and defining the tune with left hand articulations only. If you can hear where you feel the tune needs an accent, then that's where you should change direction with the bow.
Do not NOT NOT NOT practice "bowing paterns". Practice tunes
A lot of folks say to start off playing tunes with individual bow strokes for each note, and then later deciding where to slur. This will, in the long run, enable you to change direction on any note, and give you the greatest freedom with the bow.
And I'll second Earl's just for balance. I tend to start learning a tune using slurs as much as possible, reversing direction at the beginning until I can play either up- or down-strokes regardless of where the beat lies. Then I go Earl Cameron's route, playing every note with a single bow, as short as possible, until I begin to spot (hear) where the emphasis wants to go. There are usually one or two bits that I know are not working; but they get sorted out eventually when I am playing the from my heart, as in 'off by heart' , as well as my fingers. Sometimes after I have learnt a new tune, I will find myself changing the way I play something else because it feels better.
If you see a bunch of fiddlers (is that the correct collective noun?) their bows will all be going their own way. I wouldn't use the word 'patterns' except for short phrases as you mentioned originally. But a similar phrase in another tune might not feel right using the same pattern. If it feels wrong, try every which way you can until it feels better, then play that way.
David, if you end up with classical bowing then you need to remove the classical from your brain.
If when you bow the way you want it doesn't come out the way you want then that means you need to program your brain with the music you DO want to come out of it.
If all that's coming out of it is classical sounds, that means you need to input more of the fiddle sound you want, into your brain.
It won't come out of you unless it's in you. You need to change the musical oil in your brain engine.
I speak from experience. It took me a few years to knock the classical out of my system. I recommend total ear immersion therapy.
I know a classical violinist (Julliard, followed by a professional career) who later did a trad music degree at Limerick. She said it took her two years to lose her classical sound when playing trad. So it can be done.
Speaking for myself, I'm just as likely to use trad bowing when playing classical (especially baroque), so it can work the other way. But perhaps it's revealing a natural connection between trad and baroque music.
All tunes are different, and the tune will tell me how to cross bow. Generally I start any bow rocking, string hopping sequence with a down stroke if possible, but that's about it, and I don't always pull that off either. I occasionally find myself having to start a bow rocking sequence with an up bow.
Llig once said something about bowing yourself into and out of corners. Go ahead and bow yourself into a corner and then see if you can bow yourself back out. Ideally, you should be able to bow you way into and out of any situation, anyway you like.
Someone else once said they went to a workshop that had an odd yet useful exercise. They were told to bow an entire tune just using 1 inch of bow anywhere between the middle and tip. The point being that big, broad bow strokes are not needed for fiddling and they sound classical. Anything that needs to be done can be done with that small amount of bow.
if llig is correct,
why did fiddlers like Patrick Kelly get taught specific bowing by the fiddle tutor Whelan?
why did James Morrison mark in fiddle bowing for his pupils.
of course, I should have known Morrison and Whelan were wrong, llig is right,
after all what did James Morisson and Padraig OKeefe and George Whelan know, mere pygmys in the world of ITM, compared to members of this forum
David, ITM is a free spirit, free yourself from pattern, feel the music, do not impose yourself upon it but rather let it lead you where it will. The music will tell you how to dance and the dance will shape your playing.
Well I agree with lligs first post on this thread, but its clear that the alternative approach , that of practicing bowing patterns, and marking out bowing is also a valid method. I have never even considered a bowing pattern, perhaps that's my loss?!
If Patrick Kelly was taught bowing patterns, and in turn Comhaltas publish a book of bowing styles including that of Patrick Kelly, then this approach is a valid part of a traditional approach. In fact G. Whelan's pupils were taught a system of bowing for each tune with up and down bows for particular notes.
However Patrick discarded this rigid approach but none the less it was a case of going through and internalizing a system before discarding it. He learnt from his teacher and through comhaltas he can in turn pass on some of his wisdom.
I certainly dont think my own, instinctive 'thoughtless', approach to bowing is of any great merit, it works for me.
As such , for the OP perhaps he might be interested in 'The bowing styles in Irish Fiddle Playing, vol 2'' by David Lyth
Its not my way but I do not discard or advise against it. Im probably not focused enough and musically literate enough to really profit from the book and from this structured approach to bowing.
In response to all the comments on overcoming "classical bowings:"
Quote: "Foul and wretched classical bowing demons, be gone and leave this fiddler in peace!"
Too funny! I love it, SWFL Fiddler! And I'm so excited you checked out my YouTube channel! Here is a newer video of me playing with my brother and fellow The Session member, JosephofCK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lKlbHeHMQU. Hopefully I'll get around to posting a few reels sometime soon.
As far as getting stuck in the ruts of classical bowings, I fortunately don't find that to be a problem any more, though there could of course be subtle aspects I still have left over. Now it's just a matter of working out better bowings over mediocre bowings, as llig leachim pointed out in his original post.
Actually come to think of it, I've been playing ITM long enough now that I've noticed some Irish bowings creeping back over into my other playing, along the lines of what lazyhound mentioned. I recall once playing a ragtime piece and inserting my Irish fiddle bowings, just because the swing in the music fooled my subconscious brain into thinking it was Irish dance music!
I really appreciate all the tid-bits all you guys have been sharing. Keep them coming! However, that's not really what I was setting out to look for in the first place.
As a few users pointed out (I think it was "the wicked hacker"), some players will approach their bowings analytically, and very well may use "bowing patterns." And I think that may be where I fit in. Though I *can* make up bowings from scratch (and I'm getting better at that), I find that I do best with some practical framework to start with, or "bowing patterns," if you will. Now in my original post, I was talking about string-crossing patterns (think the beginning of Drowsy Maggie, for example). My guess would be that many fiddle players would tend to bow those motifs more-or-less the same way from tune to tune, because they're usually the same notes from tune to tune. (For an example, take a look at Jackie Coleman's reel - the third measure is exactly the same, note-for-note, as the first measure of Drowsy Maggie!) Now of course, one would tend (or try, in my case), to sometimes bow those string-crossing motifs different to provide variety in their playing. This is where my question comes in. I *could* sit down and try to think of a bunch of different ways to bow the string-crossing, since I'm currently locked into more-or-less one way of the doing them, but I was hoping to get some practical examples from all of you to save time on my part. For example, someone could say "Oh, Kevin Burke, Frankie Gavin, Tommy Peoples (fill in your favorite fiddle player...), tends to bow string-crossing patterns like such as such." And info like that would help open up my possibilites in a whole new way, because frankly, there some ways of bowing I would never have thought of on my own!
So sorry for rambling on like this, but what I would really appreciate is some practical examples. While I would agree with everything that has been said about making bowings your own, I don't see any reason why one can't explore the possibilites of what other great players do and perhaps implement them in your own playing.
And please, if you have any other tips on bowing, feel free to share them! I've gleaned a lot of useful info so far, especially some interesting exercises to work on.
Thanks for making a newbie to the forum feel welcomed!
"Someone else once said they went to a workshop that had an odd yet useful exercise. They were told to bow an entire tune just using 1 inch of bow anywhere between the middle and tip. The point being that big, broad bow strokes are not needed for fiddling and they sound classical. Anything that needs to be done can be done with that small amount of bow."
That's something I had noticed in trad fiddle players - they tended to use only little amounts of bow, typically in the upper half. I thought that perhaps it was because they weren't as technically comfortable with the bow as a classical player. However, I have seen long bow strokes used to equally good effect in Irish music - take a look at Kevin Burke, for example, or my recent teacher, Manus McGuire. Both of them tend to use long, flowing bow-strokes in their reels. My thinking is that it all depends on your stylistic approach to the bowing - players that gravitate more to the Donegal style of playing will use short, separate bows (or so I'm told), and more players with more of a Sligo-like style will use more fluid bowings.
In case you haven't already caught on, cross-bowing is what is done in the very common string-crossing pattern present in Irish reels (one example is the opening of Drowsy Maggie). String-crossing patterns like that pop up all over the place, and that's why I gave them special attention in my post. To the best of my understanding, fiddle players will tend to play those motifs with unique bowing patterns to best enhance the phrasing and accents.
I can tell you of one example of a local fiddler telling me about how they bowed Mountain Road and I think the same idea can be applied to Jackie Coleman's (which I think was mentioned earlier). My tendency as a habitual person is to want to bow the opening to Mountain road the same as Drowsy Mag with alternate up and down bows on the string crossing. But it can be much more interesting to slur the crossing from the A to the D string and then go back to alternate for the last 4 notes ( assuming no rolls or triplets). it's still something I struggle with and for now tend to stick to tunes where the bowing is more intuitive for my style.
David, I just got the chance to listen to your clips and you are sounding good. However, you say that, "as far as getting stuck in the ruts of classical bowings, I fortunately don't find that to be a problem any more." This may be so and well done for that. But you are still in a rut of playing the tunes the same way. The way you are bowing is perfectly fine, for one time through.
I appreciate that you are realising this and coming here to ask for other ways. All this is good and you seem to be well on your way to becoming a fine player. The conundrum you now face is do you get other ways to bow, and practice these and incorporate them into your tunes? Or do you try to develop a more intuitive way?
You will find teachers who will give you distinct patterns to practice, but will this help you become more intuitive? Do you want to become more intuitive?
Many many people play this music as if it were a jigsaw. They collect techniques and stick them together in different orders. It's perfectly possible to make pretty good music this way, provided you've collected enough pieces to keep it interesting. Whether it's fun playing this way is down to the individual, but what's not in doubt is that it will never be really really good music.
Watch this clip again and try to study the bowing. See if you can see any times they play the same thing? Have a good close look at how the slur and accent. Look at the way none of them favour either an up stroke or a down stroke. Remember that this is a farther and two sons. They have been playing together and copying each other all their lives.
Then after you've watched it and it's driven you bonkers trying to work it out ... play it again but turn your head away from the monitor and just listen. Quit trying to work it out and just let the music go straight in. All that confusion miraculously melts into one of the most magically sonourus sounds mankind has ever produced. Just listen ... and you'll learn a thousand times more than any analysis will ever give you.
I think the book I suggested might suit you well, get it!
Hey David, how come you lessons from Manus?
Actually I think you would save time by working out a whole bunch of possibilities for your chosen phrase.
Really its down to the sound you want to achieve, the bowing is simply a part of the technique used to elicit this[these] sound[s].
The way you phrase and accent a tune is part of your personal touch. The techniques/bowing patterns, you use are there simply to facilitate personal expression and allow you to play the tune as you feel it..
So my advice would be to listen to lots of great fiddlers of different styles/.regions/genres? and then perhaps check out you tube clips say, and see how they achieve these sounds.
Check out the playing of Bobby Casey
John Vesey, Johny Doherty, Paddy Caney, Dennis Murphy [ for ITM]stick the albums on loop and listen for days, weeks, months! This way lots of tunes will peculate into your being and also you will maybe resonate more with a particular player and style.
... and, of course, one makes ones own mind up whether you can learn how to play traditional Irish music from a book. Though while you are making up your mind, try to imagine the book the Kellys learned from.
Nobody said that you could , in fact I suggested listening to a particular cd and to other fiddlers, however books can help.
and that was clearly the opinion of James Morrison.
I'm not very analytical when it comes to breaking down the ups and downs of the strokes, on the initial bit of Drowsie Maggie for example. I could break it down, piece by piece, but...that'd be for only one time through, and maybe not even the first time.
That's what Llig's getting at. OK, there's the 'bowing pattern' for tune X. Hooray! Now if you play tune X three times through with the exact same bowing pattern...zzz...
I have quantum bowing. When I examine it, it dies. (hardee har har)
Finally, where is the entity currently known as Miss Lonelyhearts? This sort of stuff is right up his/her alley!
I, personally, would like to think I'm completely right . But for every rule you try to put out about playing Irish music, you can easily find an excellent musician who breaks it and still sounds fantastic... And what works for them may or may not work for you.
Still, most of the good fiddlers I know follow something like these patterns more often than not.
I'll disagree with llig a little here. Patterns (and drills) are good for you, in that they teach you to comfortably do something that wouldn't come naturally to you. Then, you can apply (or not) it to "real music" at your leisure. That's why every good fiddle player practices rolls and cuts over and over again.
The argument llig poses over whether you can learn traditional music from books and CDs is beyond the scope of this discussion, but it seems perfectly reasonable to say that a book or a CD *can* help tremendously, so go ahead and use them if you've got them.
I tell students to practice those bowings (the ones I posted above) until they more-or-less do them, then I don't bother mentioning it again. The fact that Brian Conway, or Tommy Peoples, or anybody else can actually say "this is how I cross-bow" lends credence to the fact that they've thought about it specifically. You should too.
But I'll agree with llig that in the end you should figure out what sounds good to you, and do more of that.
I've only read this bit in an interview: Your triplets are very distinctive. How did you develop them?
"I probably consciously worked on them in the sense that they never seemed to work properly. So they developed from trying to bow them properly but not succeeding. There's a slight difference from what might be known as a Sligo style of playing in that it's a different bow direction. The actual triplet itself is started on a down bow; if you do it on an up-bow it gives a lighter feeling. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It depends on form." http://www.irishfiddle.com/peoplesinterview.html
I've heard him say in no uncertain terms that the third example on the top row of that link, starting on a downbow, is how he does it. I'll leave it to others to figure out whether he actually does it in practice (though I think he mostly does).
"Every good fiddle player practices rolls and cuts over and over again." Yes, but not necessarily in isolation. It can be done better by just playing tunes.
"The fact that Brian Conway, or Tommy Peoples, or anybody else can actually say "this is how I cross-bow" lends credence to the fact that they've thought about it specifically." Yes, but not necessarily before they learned to do it. They could have equally came to it intuitively and then thought about it after the fact. It is true that Tommy Peoples does bow in that way, (amongst many other ways of course), I've watched him do it. But I'd tend to think of it as more like trying to sound how the flute would play such a phrase. Playing it by always changing direction when you change string gives it too much staccato.
Anyway Georgi, I hope I'm not really arguing with you, just discussing different approaches.
I don't think I'm really arguing with you either, llig. Unless you're claiming that figuring it out without any specific instruction is the *better* way to learn to play--in which case I WILL argue a little...
"Every good fiddle player practices rolls and cuts over and over again."
- Yes, but not necessarily in isolation. It can be done better by just playing tunes.
I confess that I don't know any good fiddlers that learned to play rolls well without doing them in isolation at least for a time... They may be out there, but everyone I've talked to acknowledges having practiced rolls outside the contexts of tunes. (You might very well have talked to other people who didn't, or even be one yourself--I just haven't either talked to you about learning rolls, nor heard you play).
"Yes, but not necessarily before they learned to do it. They could have equally came to it intuitively and then thought about it after the fact."
It's conceivable that they were extraordinarily talented, perceptive, and a little lucky, but I'm going to risk an educated guess that they had somebody along the way tell them about how to bow passages like this in pretty specific terms. I know that Brian Conway did, as he often talks about how he used to talk with Martin Wynne about bowing pretty specifically--I haven't heard enough about Tommy's musical upbringing to comment. I'd also bet a couple pints that somebody, likely his father, taught James Kelly to crossbow. Whether they still bow exactly as they were taught is, of course, a completely different question.
The undercurrent that I'm arguing against here, is the notion that Irish music isn't something that can be taught; that it should be figured out on your own in its entirety. While I'll agree that traditional music is MORE learned than taught (and an awful lot of us could stand to do more much more learning), I think that teachers teaching specific details, and learning those details from people who are willing to teach them, has great value. All the people you mentioned: Brian Conway, Tommy Peoples, and James Kelly; are all incredibly detailed and specific teachers when they do teach lessons, and the rest of us can really benefit from taking those details to heart as they are offered... THEN figuring out when or how to put them to use to satisfy our own tastes...
I'll concede that it's possible to learn to play without ever being taught (just like it's possible to learn a language without a teacher), but it's a hard road to travel; and detailed tutelage with drill-practice is a really handy supplement to the necessary immersion.
It's pretty clear we are in broad agreement here, just quibbling over the degree of what level of formal teaching v personally built epiphanies are best. Much depends on the personality of the student, of course, though isolation from a reasonably sized pool of good traditional players is also an issue.
I don't think you can teach it to be played to a high standard. But then, you can't learn to play it to a high standard in isolation either. (Though I'm pretty sure that you don't need a formal teacher. Playing with really good players regularly should be enough)
The reason you can't teach it to a high standard is that to play it to a high standard requires a great deal of personal interpretation. You can't teach that. All a teacher can do is show you their interpretation. To progress, your teacher has to let go.
However, the conundrum is that while isolation will of course encourage your personal interpretation, it will move that personal interpretation too far from the traditional base.
I know this is a contradiction but, hey, the music is full of contradictions. I think what I'm saying is that you need to have - and carry with you for your whole life - the drive, the intelligence, the openness and the dedication to be able to get the most of it for yourself, without having to be shown. The music, at its best is too subtle to be explained.
I mentioned in another thread about the music being chaotic, Not meaning random, but in the scientific sense of the word where any attempt to model it results in a model as complex as the system itself. The clip of the Kellys is a marvelous example of it. Sure you could model it, it would be a very laborious model but what would you gain from the exercise? At best, all you'd gain is the ability to reproduce it. And where is the art in that?
llig leahcim, your first comment after my last post (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23169#comment481674), was excellent, and really pointed out where I still need work and how I need to change my approach to the music. Though I would tend to more agree on the points that Georgi made, I think my error is in always trying to continue to make patterns, exercises, etc. dictate how I play. So I appreciate the comments you have made.
There's a lot here and I'm afraid I'm short on time, so unfortunately I can't respond to everything. However, thanks llig leachim and Georgi for the great discussion and comments. That picture Georgi posted was great, and just what I was looking for originally (though I don't think I'll give it the same importance I would've before I started this discussion!). However, it is curious that the one way I had learned originally from Matt Cranitch, which I posted above, is not included!
Also thanks to the wicked hacker and anon for the book recommendations. I'd seen some of those and will definitely be interested in checking them out.
In response to your question "the wicker hacker" about lessons from Manus McGuire, I was recently at the O'Flaherty Irish Music Retreat (http://www.oflahertyretreat.org) and he was my instructor there, so I was able to learn a lot from him and see his playing up close. I also had a private lesson with Brian Conway, who was one of the other fiddle instructors, and therefore can vouch for Georgi's comments about him telling his students specific bowings to use. From my brief lesson with Mr. Conway, my impression is that he approaches the bowing very analytically - "I like to use this-and-such bowing because it best enhances my phrasing objectives" - though I'm sure being such a high-caliber player he varies up what he is doing.
SWFL Fiddler, I was also hoping "Miss Lonelyhearts" would join this discussion, having read some excellent posts he has written in the past. Perhaps someone would be so kind as to ask him to come and join us?
Anyway, if any of y'all (hey, I'm a Texan!) have any other comments, please share them by all means! Also, I'd be most interested to see any videos or hear any recordings you have made of yourselves, just to see where the rubber meets the road in your playing.
Georgi, I read your last post again more thoroughly, and I wanted to say thanks so much! I couldn't agree with you more and you stated very eloquently what I've been trying to communicate all along.
At the same time, I would also agree with your comments, llig leachim, especially your last post. I guess in the end, there just has to be balance between specific instruction and personal expression.
"Sure you could model it, it would be a very laborious model but what would you gain from the exercise? At best, all you'd gain is the ability to reproduce it. And where is the art in that?"
And that is, more or less, the only thing we disagree on.
You say that the "best" that could come of trying to imitate the Kellys is that you'd only gain the ability to reproduce that music. I say two things:
a) being able to play even one tune exactly like the Kellys did is not such a bad thing.
b) By learning to duplicate them (if you managed to succeed--a long shot in itself), you would hopefully gain far more insight into WHY they play the way that they do (eg: you might learn to feel the same advantage they feel to playing with long bowstrokes)... and in better understanding the Kellys, you'd gain some more insight into how to play Irish traditional music that you wouldn't have gotten anywhere else... and THAT would be a damn useful thing to learn.
Another great fiddle player once told me (more or less): "Copy everybody you like. You will never sound quite like them, but the process of trying will make you a much better musician"
I should add that the "art" is obviously not in copying someone else, but the technique you learn by copying someone else is invaluable in helping you develop your own art.
Every great painter made a point of training themselves by copying other great painters' work first.
I don't think we are disagreeing Georgi. I think the best way to learn this music is to incorporate copying the best. Copying all of the best. Never to discard. This is the difference between playing the music and playing some god awful cobbled together invention that you've come up with yourself. It's a dichotomy of course, l but you have to balance it. I remember as a kid, saying to myself that when I could play Toss the Feathers like Kevin Burke I'd be able to play the fiddle. But of course, when I eventually could play Toss the Feathers like Kevin Burke, I'd already realised that that didn't mean I could play the fiddle at all. All it meant was that I could play Toss the Feathers like Kevin Burke did on the record I liked. However, that's not to de-value the process.
When I sit down and learn a tune (something I spent a lot of time doing when I was younger, but not so much now) I like to learn it exactly the way it's played. Cuts, rolls, crans, triplets et all. Not difficult off a record of course, but that illustrates the value of instead learning tunes off your mates. Depending on the tune, you might hear them play it between one and a hundred times before you have a go at it, but you'll never be able to learn it exactly how they play it.
I think it's important to get some kind of unison of notes with an unfamiliar tune. But you never even attempt a unison with the bowing. You just simply don't do it. I don't know anyone who does it with Irish music. Scottish music yeah, but not Irish music.
Back when I was a kid and learning off records, I did learn the bowing exactly off Kevin Burke's Toss the Feathers. Back in those days though, you didn't have a video, but you could still hear where he changed direction so it wasn't that hard to nail. He does that stereotypical thing of accenting the back beat with a down stroke, something I'm not keen on nowadays. Except I taught myself to do it with an up stroke. So I learned the whole bowing backwards and only found that out in my later teens when I started to meet other players.
Did I make a mistake? Dunno.
Does it matter? No.
Was it worth doing? Probably not, though at the time it was. (I know, another contradiction)
Would I recommend the process to a beginner? No. I'd show them the clip of the Kellys instead. Specifically to illustrate the futility of learning bowing patterns
actually those bowing fiddle exercises are also very good bellows reversal exercises for the English Concertina.
if those cross bowing fiddle exercises are applied to a tune like drowsy maggie, and the concertinist reverses where the fiddler changes slurs it creates the same feel as the fiddlers phrasing, of course that is impossible on the Anglo Concertina, because the instruments direction is limited by its push pull nature.
For the record, I am a he. The screen name is based on the novel by Nathaniel West (google it if you're curious).
Whatever insights I may have on cross bowing are already in the thread cited above. And Georgi and Michael's points in this thread are well articulated and worth reading.
Before you do ---- I agree with you both about the relevant comments on this thread about bowing as well as about the frequent lack of civility by some posters.
I found Wills bowing examples very strange to try. Starting on an upbow is just not something that would ever occur to me . As such, as an exercise, it would definitely offer possibilities that would not for me be instinctive. Is this something that is common? Starting on an up-bow?
I feel this could be one of the advantages of working with drills and exercises as suggested by others[and myself]. They offer an approach that one might not think of oneself. However in this case I dont think I will spend too much more time on it !! too bloody strange! or should I ?
"You need to have - and carry with you for your whole life - the drive, the intelligence, the openness and the dedication to be able to get the most of it for yourself,"
And someone else said (I'm paraphrasing), There's only two ways the bow can go, up or down.
An then there's,"As such, as an exercise, it would definitely offer possibilities that would not for me be instinctive. Is this something that is common? Starting on an up-bow?"
I was thinking more about your post where you commented on my playing and where I need to improve (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23169#comment481674). You observed that I'm currently stuck in the habit of bowing the tune the same way over and over.
Now the bowings, for the most part, are just what came to me naturally after having been playing Irish music for a while. I probably worked out a few spots that didn't work right when I learned the tune originally, but for the most part that's just the way that feels right for me to play the tune.
So, my question is then how do I go about varying my bowing? I could sit down and analytically think of a bunch of other bowings to use instead, but I believe that misses the whole essence of the point you've been driving at. However, when I'm already habitually playing tunes the same way repeatedly, how else would I really change?
One thing I have noticed over time is that as my playing progesses, when I go back to tunes I learned a while ago and haven't played recently, my bowing will have changed from what I used originally. But that still doesn't deal with changing up the bowing on the fly.
So, anyhow, how does one go about varying the bowing? Do the great players (e.g. the Kellys, who you've posted previously), think consciously about what bowings they're going to change, or is it all sub-conscious? And does the sub-conscious aspect just come from being absorbed into the music style?
Your advice on the matter would be greatly appreciated!
P.S. One other related topic is melodic variations, though that really is outside of the scope of this discussion. I do know for sure, having both observed and experienced it, that usually if you vary the melody, the bowing in consequence changes.
"I found Wills bowing examples very strange to try. Starting on an upbow is just not something that would ever occur to me . As such, as an exercise, it would definitely offer possibilities that would not for me be instinctive. Is this something that is common? Starting on an up-bow?
I feel this could be one of the advantages of working with drills and exercises as suggested by others[and myself]. They offer an approach that one might not think of oneself. However in this case I dont think I will spend too much more time on it !! too bloody strange! or should I ?"
Starting on up-bows is something I have observed in many different players. As far as I understand, this is usually done so they can hit the off-beats with a downstroke to give a subtle accent. The major exception to my knowledge is Kevin Burke, who will start with a downstroke on the downbeat, and play the off-beats with an upstroke (saw this in a transcription, and a fiddler friend also independently verified it). I'm not sure why Kevin Burke does it that way - perhaps he finds the upstrokes to be a softer accent?
Of course, no good fiddler will continually use those bowings over and over, because, as many others have already pointed out, that is not very interesting.
Should you practice it? I don't know, and I'm far from being an expert to comment in this area. I would personally at least try it out, just to get a feel for a different style.
In younger days, I took lessons from Kevin Burke, and I've had a number of opportunities to enjoy his playing--especially his bowing--at close range.
Not surprisingly, he emphasizes beats with both down bows and up bows. In fact, he's the source of that "the bow does two things: it goes up, it goes down" quip. His point when he said that to me was that anything you can do with a down bow you'll also want to be able to do with an up bow, and anywhere in the bow stroke, slurring or not, etc.
Irish music rarely gets stuck on just a downbeat or backbeat rhythm (the way, say, old timey or rock or bluegrass does). Good players tend to shift the emphasis around, so in a reel, for example, the strong beats move among the 1 and 3 counts:
ONE two three four ONE two three four
ONE two THREE four one two THREE four
one two THREE four ONE two THREE four
ONE two three four one two THREE four
and so on.
To do this freely and fluidly you'll want to be able to accent a beat no matter which direction your bow is going, and no matter whether you single bow that note or it's part of a slur of two notes or three, four, or 12 notes all on one bow stroke.
Starting phrases on an up bow is quite common among Irish traditional fiddlers, though perhaps most prevalent in the Sligo style. But not at all unusual in Clare and other regional styles either. If you're in the habit of playing down beats with a down bow, don't be surprised if good trad fiddlers tease you for being classically trained.
David Dude, contrary to your impression of Burke's playing, he frequently does strong emphasis with an up bow, particularly on down beats. I've seen this, in person, again and again.
Now that I think about it, you're also correct. Like all the great players, Kevin Burke varies what he is doing! (It's sounding like there's an echo in here!)
I think what I meant is that when he does a pattern of one note seperate, three notes slurred, which occurs pretty frequently in his playing, he tends to play the seperate bow with an up-bow, and the slurred notes with a down-bow. Like so:
ufeudv(c Bc)udv(B|AB)udv(e fe)udB
If he played the seperate bow on the down-beats, it would work out like this:
udv(BAB) udv(BAB)
Most other players that I'm aware of would tend to do the seperate bow with an down-bow, instead with an up-bow like he does.
David, I didn't say that you were in a rut of bowing the tunes the same way. I said you were in a rut of playing the tunes the same way. An important distinction I feel, though Miss might disagree.
You say that the bowing came naturally for you but now you are looking for new ways to bow. My advice is that instead of specifically looking for new ways to bow a phrase, you should be looking for new ways to play a phrase. And once you have more flexibility in your phrasing, the new way of bowing that phrase will come naturally to you ... just like it is already coming naturally.
But you already know this. You describe it succinctly in your P.S.
I don't know why you should say that melodic variation should be outside the remit of this discussion. Melodic/Rhythmic (same thing in my book) variation is the consequence of the bow variation you're after. Or, as I would rather put it, bowing variation is the consequence of the melodic/rhythmic variation you're after.
I appreciate Will's' deconstructionist analytical approach, but I just feel sometimes that it's just a little "cart before the horse".
I like this clip. It's not to everyone's taste, but there's no denying it's inventiveness. I think it's obvious that he's not thinking about bowing in a specific way. His concentration is squarely on putting in as much variation as he thinks the tune can handle. He's showing off, of course, but that's OK. I particularly like the last bit when he almost loses it just before his crap corny coda.
James Morrison and Padraig O Keefe and George Whelan,were all recopgnised as excellent musicians and teachers, they all believed in marking bowing for pupils.
their books and the books of the other musicans I mentioned are excellent tools , that should be used in conjunction with listening to and absorbing the music, that is why I suggested for a start the Seamus Creagh teaching cd.
Mr Moderator, sir, my smilie was in response to a post that no longer exists. I wish to point out to all that it don't go with the post that is now above it. Thank you, sir.
I should point out that the main reason I sometimes take a "deconstructionist analytical approach" is that I teach this stuff for a living. So I have to be able to explain the ins and outs (ups and downs?) of bowing. Seems that the people who can't suss it out on their own want it spelled out for them.
And even then, my approach is to remind people to simply sing the tune in their head and let it come out on the fiddle.
One potential problem of this more holistic approach is that less experienced fiddlers tend to fall back on old habits, and their bowing wants a nudge toward new ways of doing things. You can either just keep playing and wait till that happens, or you can sketch out a few different bowing ideas and try them intentionally and see what happens. I find the latter gets people bowing more freely sooner than they would otherwise.
Re: "Cart before the horse" Yep, exactly. I learned to play largely by trial and error and letting my bow hand do whatever it needed to to get the sounds I was after. Then, as a teacher, I studied what I was doing so I could explain it to others. Not everyone wants to wait 30 years to learn how to play. Maybe they should. But I'm not sure there's anything wrong with gaining an understanding of bowing based on someone else's experience, integrating that, and then just playing your heart out. I wish someone had explained some of this stuff to me when I was first starting out....
P.S. Apparently some people meed a more analytical approach to suss out all the possibilities. Otherwise, they're content to bow things they same way they always have, never trying even the most obvious options of, say, starting a tune on an up bow.
In my experience, it's not unusual to run into fiddlers who'll proudly say "I never think about my bowing--it just works." But listen to them and you'll hear a very limited set of bowing patterns and cliches. Often, their playing lacks variety and spontaneity--it's predictable and boring. I know because that was me at one stage in my playing.
I start many tunes with an up bow - Kid on the Mountain, Humours of Tulla, some polkas - but not every time, probably. I can't say that I have analyzed these tunes and decided that up bow is the way to start. I like how the beginning phrase I play sounds when I start with an up bow, though. But I also like the phrase I play with a down bow. I sometimes like to start Kid on the Mountain with an up bow roll on the E, but maybe the second time through, I will play the EDE down up down. As I write this now, I really have to think about it, but I don't think about it when I'm playing it. This gets to David's question about being conscious of varying the bowing or creating variations. I don't have a good answer for that. It isn't a conscious decision for me (I don't say to myself "Okay self, next time through, separate those first three notes and play them down up down"), but I am aware of how I am playing the phrase when I'm playing it because I am listening. I'm also aware of how the others around me are playing the tune at the same time. Somtimes the way I am playing a tune reflects the way others playing. It really is something about being in the moment with the tune and other players. So, I have probably played Kid on the Mountain hundreds of times over the past 30 years or so, but each time, the "moment" is unique.
Not sure if this make much sense but it is something that David's question made me think about.
Good post, tacoman. Especially the bit about being aware of your own playing because you're listening. It's a a moment to moment awareness, not premeditated--simply cognizant of what's happening as the tune in your head pours out of the fiddle. That's a wonderful feeling.
Ultimately, all that us fiddlers are after when we bow is getting the sound we want out of the instrument. Ideally, it doesn't matter which direction the bow is going--*as long as we can make it sound the way we want either up or down.*
So if you're not sure you can do that, or you realize that some things feel fine one way but awkward the other, some conscious woodshedding might be in order.....
So where does one start? Trial & error or analysis. imho, this is a valid question.
My quick self answer is trial & error. This way you begin with less preconceptions. Like a baby.
Those pesky preconceptions!
I am not a fiddler & you are probably wondering why I care.
The other day when Michael mentioned left hand articulations it made perfect sense to me. Hard to explain but it did.
The following comment, by Will, is a bit more esoteric though just as valid. [that's twice I've said valid]
Re: What type of bowing practice?
July 13th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/18410/comments#comment384287
Pardon the interruptions. Keep a whistle in the fiddle case & 1 in the woodshed. ;)
LOL, how about "considered trial and error." By that I mean trial and error, but with tacoman's sense of listening while you play, so you notice what works and what doesn't, and you're aware of what you're doing.
Case in point. Ages ago Kevin Burke would deny that he used bowing patterns no matter how many people asked him to explain how he got the sound he did on just the sort of string crossings we've gone into on this thread. Then one student of his sat him down and made him listen to his own recordings so he could hear the same little bit in a handful of different tunes. Kevin had to admit that he frequently did the pedal bowing thing. Of course he did it with the bow going up or down--so it felt like less of a pattern to him. But it was a trademark of his pulse. Since then, Burke revisited his bowing, in part to deal with a shoulder injury. But he came out of it much freer and less predictable with his bow.
Some of the best bowing stuff happens in mid flight during a cranking set of reels in a session. You just hope you can do it again and remember what it feels and sounds like.
Maybe one starts with what llig talked about much earlier on this thread - listening to other fiddle players, watching what they do, absorbing it, and copying it to try out and learn a technique. The tricky part is turning what you copy into something that is your own, not just an imitation of what you heard. Books and exercises can give you some of this. But I think you need the experience of turning something you like that you heard someone else play into something you like hearing yourself play. As Georgi said, the technique you learn by copying someone else is invaluable to developing your own art.
But with specific relation to " turning what you copy into something that is your own". I don't think there is any need to force this. Maybe forcing oneself to initially do something that for what ever reason should be natural but isn't, starting on an up stroke for example, but not trying to force the music to be your own. As long as you listen to lots of different players, you simply won't be able to stop being yourself.
I'm understanding you now. Ironically, I find the best way for me to pick up melodic variations is to listen to several different players all playing the same tune. And listening is something that many have recommended already.
I also find that I tend to be more imaginative in varying the tune if :
a) I learn a tune through absorbing from many different sources, rather than learning by studying one recording alone. This form of picking up tunes would probably occur naturally if you were surrounded by musicians and attended sessions all the time, but that is something I unfortunately lack!
b) Or if I do learn from one recording alone, I learn from a player who is good at varying the melody. That really helps, because right off the bat, I've got a bunch of variations I can use at will!
Now of course, in the end I should be able to make up my own variations, but every little bit until I get there helps!
And the video - Frankie Gavin is definitely a fabulous player! (Though I'm not sure those variations are quite to my taste - too over the top and showy, IMO). One video I really like is of Oisin McAuley, the fiddle player with Danu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8azZ0o1oI8 I'm not really sure his "variations" can really be called variations, because he's actually improvising for a few measure at a time, leaving the tune entirely! I don't think I personally would want to go there with my playing, but it's amazing how he pulls it off!
Look at all the Youtube videos for the Gnuvellia (spelling?) and/or the Pride of Rathmore/ Paddy Cronin's(as heard on Kevin Burke's If The Cap Fits) Reel. This tune comes with either 2 or three parts in 2 or 3 distinctive settings, it is fun to play all of them together as variations of the same tune. I more or less play the same bowing for the A part (unless I play a melodic variation) and a lot of different bowing for the B part. And there are tons of variations that lend themselves well to this tune!
Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving! (llig leahcim, you can just be grateful along with us!) Did anyone have any more comments, or is this thread pretty much finished?
The Various Cross-bowing Methods
The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Hello there! This is my first time to post a discussion at The Session, so if necessary, please give me a little grace.
However, I had a lesson with the great fiddle player Brian Conway at a recent Irish music camp, and he enlightened me by showing me that there are several other bowing possibilities.
I am interested in learning of all the different possible ways a fiddler could execute a cross-bowing pattern, in hopes I could diversify what I do personally. I had originally learned a pattern from Matt Cranitch's Irish Fiddle book, which is used consistently throughout the book, and in my naivety, I thought all fiddle players used the same bowing.
What I had originally learned from Matt Cranitch's book is as follows (using the first two measures of "The Killavil Reel" as an example):
(vD2A)(uD BD)vAD|(vD2A)(uD BD)vAD (You'll probably have to paste it into an ABC program to make any sense of it).
For the other form of cross-bowing pattern (such as the B part of Dinkie's, which I'm using for an example here), Matt Cranitch would bow it as such:
vaA vA/A/(A a)(uAbA)
Brian Conway has a rather unique way he personally likes to execute cross-bowings. This is what he does (back to using the Killavil Reel as an example):
vD2uA(vD BDA)uD|vD2uA(vD BDA)uD
I find this way much more challenging, but it is certainly a valid option.
So anyway, if you wouldn't mind please sharing how you personally play cross-bowings and all the different methods you've seen out there, I'd appreciate it.
-- David
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by The David Dude
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
There are as many ways to bow a phrase as there are ways to play a phrase. Some of them good, most of them not so good.
One of the really important things about this music is your personal freedom. You must learn to do it on your own. If you follow patterns you will be putting on a straight jacket.
I'm sorry if that's not the answer you are looking for. And I'm sorry for the people who will no doubt chime in after me and give you bowing patterns to practice. But the final word on the matter is that you must ultimately develop the ability to make up your bowing on the fly.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
actually I liked what you said the other day about left hand articulations. & I don't even play fiddle.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
I usually don't think about bowing, but I do like to downbow on the up beat whether subtly or with a loud barking effect. I mostly agree with llig leahcim, although I do sometimes allow my conscious mind to dictate bowing to me for certain difficult phrases of tunes, but I don't think of patterns so much as emphasis. (Where do I switch direction? am I emphasizing down bows or up bows? How many notes can I slur together without fecking up the rhythm?
It's worth noting that the day I feel I really "got it" in terms of my bowing, I was not trying to do anything particular, It just came to me and I think I was learning Colonel Mcbain or Paddy Cronin's
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Earl Cameron
In response to llig leahcim...
I was expecting someone to make the point that there is no "right" way to bow anything, and you should just bow it however is comfortable for you and brings out the sound you want. However, for someone like me, coming from a classical background, that just doesn't work - I end up with classical bowings! Fortunately, I've been playing long enough now that this isn't the case very much anymore, but nonetheless, I feel that newcomers to Irish music need at least some framework to work with.
However, specific to my original request, if you read carefully, you'll see I'm not looking for one specific "cure-all" bowing pattern to use on cross-bowings. Rather, I've been using one, and only one, bowing pattern much too long, and would like to learn of some of the other possibilities out there. So I'm soliciting for others' opinions in an effort to diversify what I do personally and not be locked into just one method of bowing. So I hope that puts your concern to rest...
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by The David Dude
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
My bad, the comment I referred to does not involve cross-bowing.
"Re: Fiddles - at last I understand the attraction"
November 20th 2009 by llig leahcim
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23149/comments#comment480937
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Yes,
Try playing tunes with long continuous bow strokes, and defining the tune with left hand articulations only. If you can hear where you feel the tune needs an accent, then that's where you should change direction with the bow.
Do not NOT NOT NOT practice "bowing paterns". Practice tunes
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
A lot of folks say to start off playing tunes with individual bow strokes for each note, and then later deciding where to slur. This will, in the long run, enable you to change direction on any note, and give you the greatest freedom with the bow.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
I'd second Lligs first post here!!
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Cathal Buí Mac Giolla Ghunna
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
And I'll second Earl's just for balance. I tend to start learning a tune using slurs as much as possible, reversing direction at the beginning until I can play either up- or down-strokes regardless of where the beat lies. Then I go Earl Cameron's route, playing every note with a single bow, as short as possible, until I begin to spot (hear) where the emphasis wants to go. There are usually one or two bits that I know are not working; but they get sorted out eventually when I am playing the from my heart, as in 'off by heart' , as well as my fingers. Sometimes after I have learnt a new tune, I will find myself changing the way I play something else because it feels better.
If you see a bunch of fiddlers (is that the correct collective noun?) their bows will all be going their own way. I wouldn't use the word 'patterns' except for short phrases as you mentioned originally. But a similar phrase in another tune might not feel right using the same pattern. If it feels wrong, try every which way you can until it feels better, then play that way.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by gam
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
David, if you end up with classical bowing then you need to remove the classical from your brain.
If when you bow the way you want it doesn't come out the way you want then that means you need to program your brain with the music you DO want to come out of it.
If all that's coming out of it is classical sounds, that means you need to input more of the fiddle sound you want, into your brain.
It won't come out of you unless it's in you. You need to change the musical oil in your brain engine.
I speak from experience. It took me a few years to knock the classical out of my system. I recommend total ear immersion therapy.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
I know a classical violinist (Julliard, followed by a professional career) who later did a trad music degree at Limerick. She said it took her two years to lose her classical sound when playing trad. So it can be done.
Speaking for myself, I'm just as likely to use trad bowing when playing classical (especially baroque), so it can work the other way. But perhaps it's revealing a natural connection between trad and baroque music.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
I bet an exorcism would work quicker.
"Foul and wretched classical bowing demons, be gone and leave this fiddler in peace!"
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
David, if this you it sounds like you're on the right path to me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDHSSGhM6o0
All tunes are different, and the tune will tell me how to cross bow. Generally I start any bow rocking, string hopping sequence with a down stroke if possible, but that's about it, and I don't always pull that off either. I occasionally find myself having to start a bow rocking sequence with an up bow.
Llig once said something about bowing yourself into and out of corners. Go ahead and bow yourself into a corner and then see if you can bow yourself back out. Ideally, you should be able to bow you way into and out of any situation, anyway you like.
Someone else once said they went to a workshop that had an odd yet useful exercise. They were told to bow an entire tune just using 1 inch of bow anywhere between the middle and tip. The point being that big, broad bow strokes are not needed for fiddling and they sound classical. Anything that needs to be done can be done with that small amount of bow.
Good on ya! Keep it up.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
I thoroughly agree with llig's first post. (And his second as well - is this some sort of record?)
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Ebor_fiddler
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
if llig is correct,
why did fiddlers like Patrick Kelly get taught specific bowing by the fiddle tutor Whelan?
why did James Morrison mark in fiddle bowing for his pupils.
of course, I should have known Morrison and Whelan were wrong, llig is right,
after all what did James Morisson and Padraig OKeefe and George Whelan know, mere pygmys in the world of ITM, compared to members of this forum
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Dick Miles
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
David, ITM is a free spirit, free yourself from pattern, feel the music, do not impose yourself upon it but rather let it lead you where it will. The music will tell you how to dance and the dance will shape your playing.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by john knoss
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Quite right John, I'm out o' here too
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
X post. and i wouldn't be a bit surprised...ffs.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by john knoss
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
(except, of course, to post again this classic ...)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga4qocQkH0A
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Well I agree with lligs first post on this thread, but its clear that the alternative approach , that of practicing bowing patterns, and marking out bowing is also a valid method. I have never even considered a bowing pattern, perhaps that's my loss?!
If Patrick Kelly was taught bowing patterns, and in turn Comhaltas publish a book of bowing styles including that of Patrick Kelly, then this approach is a valid part of a traditional approach. In fact G. Whelan's pupils were taught a system of bowing for each tune with up and down bows for particular notes.
However Patrick discarded this rigid approach but none the less it was a case of going through and internalizing a system before discarding it. He learnt from his teacher and through comhaltas he can in turn pass on some of his wisdom.
I certainly dont think my own, instinctive 'thoughtless', approach to bowing is of any great merit, it works for me.
As such , for the OP perhaps he might be interested in 'The bowing styles in Irish Fiddle Playing, vol 2'' by David Lyth
Its not my way but I do not discard or advise against it. Im probably not focused enough and musically literate enough to really profit from the book and from this structured approach to bowing.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Anyhow, what is cross-bowing?
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Wow! The activity here surprises me quite a bit! Thanks to everyone for all the responses.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by The David Dude
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
"(except, of course, to post again this classic ...)"
Ah, I love that one. Three bows going in three different non-patterns.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Bob himself
In response to all the comments on overcoming "classical bowings:"
Quote: "Foul and wretched classical bowing demons, be gone and leave this fiddler in peace!"
Too funny! I love it, SWFL Fiddler! And I'm so excited you checked out my YouTube channel! Here is a newer video of me playing with my brother and fellow The Session member, JosephofCK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lKlbHeHMQU. Hopefully I'll get around to posting a few reels sometime soon.
As far as getting stuck in the ruts of classical bowings, I fortunately don't find that to be a problem any more, though there could of course be subtle aspects I still have left over. Now it's just a matter of working out better bowings over mediocre bowings, as llig leachim pointed out in his original post.
Actually come to think of it, I've been playing ITM long enough now that I've noticed some Irish bowings creeping back over into my other playing, along the lines of what lazyhound mentioned. I recall once playing a ragtime piece and inserting my Irish fiddle bowings, just because the swing in the music fooled my subconscious brain into thinking it was Irish dance music!
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by The David Dude
Now back to my original question/request:
I really appreciate all the tid-bits all you guys have been sharing. Keep them coming! However, that's not really what I was setting out to look for in the first place.
As a few users pointed out (I think it was "the wicked hacker"), some players will approach their bowings analytically, and very well may use "bowing patterns." And I think that may be where I fit in. Though I *can* make up bowings from scratch (and I'm getting better at that), I find that I do best with some practical framework to start with, or "bowing patterns," if you will. Now in my original post, I was talking about string-crossing patterns (think the beginning of Drowsy Maggie, for example). My guess would be that many fiddle players would tend to bow those motifs more-or-less the same way from tune to tune, because they're usually the same notes from tune to tune. (For an example, take a look at Jackie Coleman's reel - the third measure is exactly the same, note-for-note, as the first measure of Drowsy Maggie!) Now of course, one would tend (or try, in my case), to sometimes bow those string-crossing motifs different to provide variety in their playing. This is where my question comes in. I *could* sit down and try to think of a bunch of different ways to bow the string-crossing, since I'm currently locked into more-or-less one way of the doing them, but I was hoping to get some practical examples from all of you to save time on my part. For example, someone could say "Oh, Kevin Burke, Frankie Gavin, Tommy Peoples (fill in your favorite fiddle player...), tends to bow string-crossing patterns like such as such." And info like that would help open up my possibilites in a whole new way, because frankly, there some ways of bowing I would never have thought of on my own!
So sorry for rambling on like this, but what I would really appreciate is some practical examples. While I would agree with everything that has been said about making bowings your own, I don't see any reason why one can't explore the possibilites of what other great players do and perhaps implement them in your own playing.
And please, if you have any other tips on bowing, feel free to share them! I've gleaned a lot of useful info so far, especially some interesting exercises to work on.
Thanks for making a newbie to the forum feel welcomed!
-- David
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by The David Dude
Quoted from SWFL Fiddler:
"Someone else once said they went to a workshop that had an odd yet useful exercise. They were told to bow an entire tune just using 1 inch of bow anywhere between the middle and tip. The point being that big, broad bow strokes are not needed for fiddling and they sound classical. Anything that needs to be done can be done with that small amount of bow."
That's something I had noticed in trad fiddle players - they tended to use only little amounts of bow, typically in the upper half. I thought that perhaps it was because they weren't as technically comfortable with the bow as a classical player. However, I have seen long bow strokes used to equally good effect in Irish music - take a look at Kevin Burke, for example, or my recent teacher, Manus McGuire. Both of them tend to use long, flowing bow-strokes in their reels. My thinking is that it all depends on your stylistic approach to the bowing - players that gravitate more to the Donegal style of playing will use short, separate bows (or so I'm told), and more players with more of a Sligo-like style will use more fluid bowings.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by The David Dude
To "the wicked hacker:"
Quote: "Anyhow, what is cross-bowing?"
In case you haven't already caught on, cross-bowing is what is done in the very common string-crossing pattern present in Irish reels (one example is the opening of Drowsy Maggie). String-crossing patterns like that pop up all over the place, and that's why I gave them special attention in my post. To the best of my understanding, fiddle players will tend to play those motifs with unique bowing patterns to best enhance the phrasing and accents.
I hope that answers your question.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by The David Dude
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
I can tell you of one example of a local fiddler telling me about how they bowed Mountain Road and I think the same idea can be applied to Jackie Coleman's (which I think was mentioned earlier). My tendency as a habitual person is to want to bow the opening to Mountain road the same as Drowsy Mag with alternate up and down bows on the string crossing. But it can be much more interesting to slur the crossing from the A to the D string and then go back to alternate for the last 4 notes ( assuming no rolls or triplets). it's still something I struggle with and for now tend to stick to tunes where the bowing is more intuitive for my style.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
David, I just got the chance to listen to your clips and you are sounding good. However, you say that, "as far as getting stuck in the ruts of classical bowings, I fortunately don't find that to be a problem any more." This may be so and well done for that. But you are still in a rut of playing the tunes the same way. The way you are bowing is perfectly fine, for one time through.
I appreciate that you are realising this and coming here to ask for other ways. All this is good and you seem to be well on your way to becoming a fine player. The conundrum you now face is do you get other ways to bow, and practice these and incorporate them into your tunes? Or do you try to develop a more intuitive way?
You will find teachers who will give you distinct patterns to practice, but will this help you become more intuitive? Do you want to become more intuitive?
Many many people play this music as if it were a jigsaw. They collect techniques and stick them together in different orders. It's perfectly possible to make pretty good music this way, provided you've collected enough pieces to keep it interesting. Whether it's fun playing this way is down to the individual, but what's not in doubt is that it will never be really really good music.
Watch this clip again and try to study the bowing. See if you can see any times they play the same thing? Have a good close look at how the slur and accent. Look at the way none of them favour either an up stroke or a down stroke. Remember that this is a farther and two sons. They have been playing together and copying each other all their lives.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ga4qocQkH0A
Then after you've watched it and it's driven you bonkers trying to work it out ... play it again but turn your head away from the monitor and just listen. Quit trying to work it out and just let the music go straight in. All that confusion miraculously melts into one of the most magically sonourus sounds mankind has ever produced. Just listen ... and you'll learn a thousand times more than any analysis will ever give you.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
I think the book I suggested might suit you well, get it!
Hey David, how come you lessons from Manus?
Actually I think you would save time by working out a whole bunch of possibilities for your chosen phrase.
Really its down to the sound you want to achieve, the bowing is simply a part of the technique used to elicit this[these] sound[s].
The way you phrase and accent a tune is part of your personal touch. The techniques/bowing patterns, you use are there simply to facilitate personal expression and allow you to play the tune as you feel it..
So my advice would be to listen to lots of great fiddlers of different styles/.regions/genres? and then perhaps check out you tube clips say, and see how they achieve these sounds.
Check out the playing of Bobby Casey
John Vesey, Johny Doherty, Paddy Caney, Dennis Murphy [ for ITM]stick the albums on loop and listen for days, weeks, months! This way lots of tunes will peculate into your being and also you will maybe resonate more with a particular player and style.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
... and, of course, one makes ones own mind up whether you can learn how to play traditional Irish music from a book. Though while you are making up your mind, try to imagine the book the Kellys learned from.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Nobody said that you could , in fact I suggested listening to a particular cd and to other fiddlers, however books can help.
and that was clearly the opinion of James Morrison.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Dick Miles
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
David, you can't go wrong with Llig's post up above.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23169/comments#comment481674
I'm not very analytical when it comes to breaking down the ups and downs of the strokes, on the initial bit of Drowsie Maggie for example. I could break it down, piece by piece, but...that'd be for only one time through, and maybe not even the first time.
That's what Llig's getting at. OK, there's the 'bowing pattern' for tune X. Hooray! Now if you play tune X three times through with the exact same bowing pattern...zzz...
I have quantum bowing. When I examine it, it dies. (hardee har har)
Finally, where is the entity currently known as Miss Lonelyhearts? This sort of stuff is right up his/her alley!
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
This is such a common question, I wrote out the answer I usually give when people ask me:
. But for every rule you try to put out about playing Irish music, you can easily find an excellent musician who breaks it and still sounds fantastic... And what works for them may or may not work for you.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/georgikeith/3800074614/
Bow direction doesn't matter that much.
I, personally, would like to think I'm completely right
Still, most of the good fiddlers I know follow something like these patterns more often than not.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Georgi
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
I'll disagree with llig a little here. Patterns (and drills) are good for you, in that they teach you to comfortably do something that wouldn't come naturally to you. Then, you can apply (or not) it to "real music" at your leisure. That's why every good fiddle player practices rolls and cuts over and over again.
The argument llig poses over whether you can learn traditional music from books and CDs is beyond the scope of this discussion, but it seems perfectly reasonable to say that a book or a CD *can* help tremendously, so go ahead and use them if you've got them.
I tell students to practice those bowings (the ones I posted above) until they more-or-less do them, then I don't bother mentioning it again. The fact that Brian Conway, or Tommy Peoples, or anybody else can actually say "this is how I cross-bow" lends credence to the fact that they've thought about it specifically. You should too.
But I'll agree with llig that in the end you should figure out what sounds good to you, and do more of that.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Georgi
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Out of curiosity, what does Tommy Peoples say about bowing?
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Ben Steen
I've only read this bit in an interview: Your triplets are very distinctive. How did you develop them?
"I probably consciously worked on them in the sense that they never seemed to work properly. So they developed from trying to bow them properly but not succeeding. There's a slight difference from what might be known as a Sligo style of playing in that it's a different bow direction. The actual triplet itself is started on a down bow; if you do it on an up-bow it gives a lighter feeling. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It depends on form."
http://www.irishfiddle.com/peoplesinterview.html
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
"Out of curiosity, what does Tommy Peoples say about bowing?"
http://www.flickr.com/photos/georgikeith/3800074614/
I've heard him say in no uncertain terms that the third example on the top row of that link, starting on a downbow, is how he does it. I'll leave it to others to figure out whether he actually does it in practice (though I think he mostly does).
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Georgi
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
"Every good fiddle player practices rolls and cuts over and over again." Yes, but not necessarily in isolation. It can be done better by just playing tunes.
"The fact that Brian Conway, or Tommy Peoples, or anybody else can actually say "this is how I cross-bow" lends credence to the fact that they've thought about it specifically." Yes, but not necessarily before they learned to do it. They could have equally came to it intuitively and then thought about it after the fact. It is true that Tommy Peoples does bow in that way, (amongst many other ways of course), I've watched him do it. But I'd tend to think of it as more like trying to sound how the flute would play such a phrase. Playing it by always changing direction when you change string gives it too much staccato.
Anyway Georgi, I hope I'm not really arguing with you, just discussing different approaches.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
I don't think I'm really arguing with you either, llig. Unless you're claiming that figuring it out without any specific instruction is the *better* way to learn to play--in which case I WILL argue a little...
"Every good fiddle player practices rolls and cuts over and over again."
- Yes, but not necessarily in isolation. It can be done better by just playing tunes.
I confess that I don't know any good fiddlers that learned to play rolls well without doing them in isolation at least for a time... They may be out there, but everyone I've talked to acknowledges having practiced rolls outside the contexts of tunes. (You might very well have talked to other people who didn't, or even be one yourself--I just haven't either talked to you about learning rolls, nor heard you play).
"Yes, but not necessarily before they learned to do it. They could have equally came to it intuitively and then thought about it after the fact."
It's conceivable that they were extraordinarily talented, perceptive, and a little lucky, but I'm going to risk an educated guess that they had somebody along the way tell them about how to bow passages like this in pretty specific terms. I know that Brian Conway did, as he often talks about how he used to talk with Martin Wynne about bowing pretty specifically--I haven't heard enough about Tommy's musical upbringing to comment. I'd also bet a couple pints that somebody, likely his father, taught James Kelly to crossbow. Whether they still bow exactly as they were taught is, of course, a completely different question.
The undercurrent that I'm arguing against here, is the notion that Irish music isn't something that can be taught; that it should be figured out on your own in its entirety. While I'll agree that traditional music is MORE learned than taught (and an awful lot of us could stand to do more much more learning), I think that teachers teaching specific details, and learning those details from people who are willing to teach them, has great value. All the people you mentioned: Brian Conway, Tommy Peoples, and James Kelly; are all incredibly detailed and specific teachers when they do teach lessons, and the rest of us can really benefit from taking those details to heart as they are offered... THEN figuring out when or how to put them to use to satisfy our own tastes...
I'll concede that it's possible to learn to play without ever being taught (just like it's possible to learn a language without a teacher), but it's a hard road to travel; and detailed tutelage with drill-practice is a really handy supplement to the necessary immersion.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Georgi
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
It's pretty clear we are in broad agreement here, just quibbling over the degree of what level of formal teaching v personally built epiphanies are best. Much depends on the personality of the student, of course, though isolation from a reasonably sized pool of good traditional players is also an issue.
I don't think you can teach it to be played to a high standard. But then, you can't learn to play it to a high standard in isolation either. (Though I'm pretty sure that you don't need a formal teacher. Playing with really good players regularly should be enough)
The reason you can't teach it to a high standard is that to play it to a high standard requires a great deal of personal interpretation. You can't teach that. All a teacher can do is show you their interpretation. To progress, your teacher has to let go.
However, the conundrum is that while isolation will of course encourage your personal interpretation, it will move that personal interpretation too far from the traditional base.
I know this is a contradiction but, hey, the music is full of contradictions. I think what I'm saying is that you need to have - and carry with you for your whole life - the drive, the intelligence, the openness and the dedication to be able to get the most of it for yourself, without having to be shown. The music, at its best is too subtle to be explained.
I mentioned in another thread about the music being chaotic, Not meaning random, but in the scientific sense of the word where any attempt to model it results in a model as complex as the system itself. The clip of the Kellys is a marvelous example of it. Sure you could model it, it would be a very laborious model but what would you gain from the exercise? At best, all you'd gain is the ability to reproduce it. And where is the art in that?
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Thanks to everyone for the great comments!
llig leahcim, your first comment after my last post (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23169#comment481674), was excellent, and really pointed out where I still need work and how I need to change my approach to the music. Though I would tend to more agree on the points that Georgi made, I think my error is in always trying to continue to make patterns, exercises, etc. dictate how I play. So I appreciate the comments you have made.
There's a lot here and I'm afraid I'm short on time, so unfortunately I can't respond to everything. However, thanks llig leachim and Georgi for the great discussion and comments. That picture Georgi posted was great, and just what I was looking for originally (though I don't think I'll give it the same importance I would've before I started this discussion!). However, it is curious that the one way I had learned originally from Matt Cranitch, which I posted above, is not included!
Also thanks to the wicked hacker and anon for the book recommendations. I'd seen some of those and will definitely be interested in checking them out.
In response to your question "the wicker hacker" about lessons from Manus McGuire, I was recently at the O'Flaherty Irish Music Retreat (http://www.oflahertyretreat.org) and he was my instructor there, so I was able to learn a lot from him and see his playing up close. I also had a private lesson with Brian Conway, who was one of the other fiddle instructors, and therefore can vouch for Georgi's comments about him telling his students specific bowings to use. From my brief lesson with Mr. Conway, my impression is that he approaches the bowing very analytically - "I like to use this-and-such bowing because it best enhances my phrasing objectives" - though I'm sure being such a high-caliber player he varies up what he is doing.
SWFL Fiddler, I was also hoping "Miss Lonelyhearts" would join this discussion, having read some excellent posts he has written in the past. Perhaps someone would be so kind as to ask him to come and join us?
Anyway, if any of y'all (hey, I'm a Texan!) have any other comments, please share them by all means! Also, I'd be most interested to see any videos or hear any recordings you have made of yourselves, just to see where the rubber meets the road in your playing.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by The David Dude
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
I just wanted to add something else...
Georgi, I read your last post again more thoroughly, and I wanted to say thanks so much! I couldn't agree with you more and you stated very eloquently what I've been trying to communicate all along.
At the same time, I would also agree with your comments, llig leachim, especially your last post. I guess in the end, there just has to be balance between specific instruction and personal expression.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by The David Dude
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
"Sure you could model it, it would be a very laborious model but what would you gain from the exercise? At best, all you'd gain is the ability to reproduce it. And where is the art in that?"
And that is, more or less, the only thing we disagree on.
You say that the "best" that could come of trying to imitate the Kellys is that you'd only gain the ability to reproduce that music. I say two things:
a) being able to play even one tune exactly like the Kellys did is not such a bad thing.
b) By learning to duplicate them (if you managed to succeed--a long shot in itself), you would hopefully gain far more insight into WHY they play the way that they do (eg: you might learn to feel the same advantage they feel to playing with long bowstrokes)... and in better understanding the Kellys, you'd gain some more insight into how to play Irish traditional music that you wouldn't have gotten anywhere else... and THAT would be a damn useful thing to learn.
Another great fiddle player once told me (more or less): "Copy everybody you like. You will never sound quite like them, but the process of trying will make you a much better musician"
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Georgi
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
I should add that the "art" is obviously not in copying someone else, but the technique you learn by copying someone else is invaluable in helping you develop your own art.
Every great painter made a point of training themselves by copying other great painters' work first.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Georgi
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
I don't think we are disagreeing Georgi. I think the best way to learn this music is to incorporate copying the best. Copying all of the best. Never to discard. This is the difference between playing the music and playing some god awful cobbled together invention that you've come up with yourself. It's a dichotomy of course, l but you have to balance it. I remember as a kid, saying to myself that when I could play Toss the Feathers like Kevin Burke I'd be able to play the fiddle. But of course, when I eventually could play Toss the Feathers like Kevin Burke, I'd already realised that that didn't mean I could play the fiddle at all. All it meant was that I could play Toss the Feathers like Kevin Burke did on the record I liked. However, that's not to de-value the process.
When I sit down and learn a tune (something I spent a lot of time doing when I was younger, but not so much now) I like to learn it exactly the way it's played. Cuts, rolls, crans, triplets et all. Not difficult off a record of course, but that illustrates the value of instead learning tunes off your mates. Depending on the tune, you might hear them play it between one and a hundred times before you have a go at it, but you'll never be able to learn it exactly how they play it.
I think it's important to get some kind of unison of notes with an unfamiliar tune. But you never even attempt a unison with the bowing. You just simply don't do it. I don't know anyone who does it with Irish music. Scottish music yeah, but not Irish music.
Back when I was a kid and learning off records, I did learn the bowing exactly off Kevin Burke's Toss the Feathers. Back in those days though, you didn't have a video, but you could still hear where he changed direction so it wasn't that hard to nail. He does that stereotypical thing of accenting the back beat with a down stroke, something I'm not keen on nowadays. Except I taught myself to do it with an up stroke. So I learned the whole bowing backwards and only found that out in my later teens when I started to meet other players.
Did I make a mistake? Dunno.
Does it matter? No.
Was it worth doing? Probably not, though at the time it was. (I know, another contradiction)
Would I recommend the process to a beginner? No. I'd show them the clip of the Kellys instead. Specifically to illustrate the futility of learning bowing patterns
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
actually those bowing fiddle exercises are also very good bellows reversal exercises for the English Concertina.
if those cross bowing fiddle exercises are applied to a tune like drowsy maggie, and the concertinist reverses where the fiddler changes slurs it creates the same feel as the fiddlers phrasing, of course that is impossible on the Anglo Concertina, because the instruments direction is limited by its push pull nature.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Dick Miles
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
David, I have contacted the oracle and made an offering. Perhaps the spirits will be moved and we shall be visited by the Lonelyhearted one.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Re: What type of bowing practice?
" . . . timing is key."
July 12th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/18410/comments#comment384218
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
I hope miss lonelyhearts does contribute, he is a good fiddle player.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Dick Miles
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
not worried you will begin to sound like him?
i.e. - previous discussion
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Ben Steen
~
her
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
credit where credit is due he is a good fiddle player, I have never said otherwise.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Dick Miles
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
She had a good response, a. ;)
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Ah yes, I see, sorry, I'm a bit daft.
No wonder Miss Thing is not around. Thanks for the tip, Llig.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
For the record, I am a he. The screen name is based on the novel by Nathaniel West (google it if you're curious).
Whatever insights I may have on cross bowing are already in the thread cited above. And Georgi and Michael's points in this thread are well articulated and worth reading.
Go play some tunes, y'all....
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Completely agree with you Miss L. So I will and can add nothing more to this thread.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by john knoss
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Before you do ---- I agree with you both about the relevant comments on this thread about bowing as well as about the frequent lack of civility by some posters.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by John Culhane
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Looks like a great book too!
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Amen, Will.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by kennedy
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
I found Wills bowing examples very strange to try. Starting on an upbow is just not something that would ever occur to me . As such, as an exercise, it would definitely offer possibilities that would not for me be instinctive. Is this something that is common? Starting on an up-bow?
I feel this could be one of the advantages of working with drills and exercises as suggested by others[and myself]. They offer an approach that one might not think of oneself. However in this case I dont think I will spend too much more time on it !! too bloody strange! or should I ?
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
As much time as you like. 24 hours a day would be a good start.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
"You need to have - and carry with you for your whole life - the drive, the intelligence, the openness and the dedication to be able to get the most of it for yourself,"
And someone else said (I'm paraphrasing), There's only two ways the bow can go, up or down.
An then there's,"As such, as an exercise, it would definitely offer possibilities that would not for me be instinctive. Is this something that is common? Starting on an up-bow?"
50/50, and he never thought of it.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
I do it occassionally
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Question for llig leahcim:
I was thinking more about your post where you commented on my playing and where I need to improve (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/23169#comment481674). You observed that I'm currently stuck in the habit of bowing the tune the same way over and over.
Now the bowings, for the most part, are just what came to me naturally after having been playing Irish music for a while. I probably worked out a few spots that didn't work right when I learned the tune originally, but for the most part that's just the way that feels right for me to play the tune.
So, my question is then how do I go about varying my bowing? I could sit down and analytically think of a bunch of other bowings to use instead, but I believe that misses the whole essence of the point you've been driving at. However, when I'm already habitually playing tunes the same way repeatedly, how else would I really change?
One thing I have noticed over time is that as my playing progesses, when I go back to tunes I learned a while ago and haven't played recently, my bowing will have changed from what I used originally. But that still doesn't deal with changing up the bowing on the fly.
So, anyhow, how does one go about varying the bowing? Do the great players (e.g. the Kellys, who you've posted previously), think consciously about what bowings they're going to change, or is it all sub-conscious? And does the sub-conscious aspect just come from being absorbed into the music style?
Your advice on the matter would be greatly appreciated!
P.S. One other related topic is melodic variations, though that really is outside of the scope of this discussion. I do know for sure, having both observed and experienced it, that usually if you vary the melody, the bowing in consequence changes.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by The David Dude
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
In response to "the wicked hacker:"
You said:
"I found Wills bowing examples very strange to try. Starting on an upbow is just not something that would ever occur to me . As such, as an exercise, it would definitely offer possibilities that would not for me be instinctive. Is this something that is common? Starting on an up-bow?
I feel this could be one of the advantages of working with drills and exercises as suggested by others[and myself]. They offer an approach that one might not think of oneself. However in this case I dont think I will spend too much more time on it !! too bloody strange! or should I ?"
Starting on up-bows is something I have observed in many different players. As far as I understand, this is usually done so they can hit the off-beats with a downstroke to give a subtle accent. The major exception to my knowledge is Kevin Burke, who will start with a downstroke on the downbeat, and play the off-beats with an upstroke (saw this in a transcription, and a fiddler friend also independently verified it). I'm not sure why Kevin Burke does it that way - perhaps he finds the upstrokes to be a softer accent?
Of course, no good fiddler will continually use those bowings over and over, because, as many others have already pointed out, that is not very interesting.
Should you practice it? I don't know, and I'm far from being an expert to comment in this area. I would personally at least try it out, just to get a feel for a different style.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by The David Dude
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
In younger days, I took lessons from Kevin Burke, and I've had a number of opportunities to enjoy his playing--especially his bowing--at close range.
Not surprisingly, he emphasizes beats with both down bows and up bows. In fact, he's the source of that "the bow does two things: it goes up, it goes down" quip. His point when he said that to me was that anything you can do with a down bow you'll also want to be able to do with an up bow, and anywhere in the bow stroke, slurring or not, etc.
Irish music rarely gets stuck on just a downbeat or backbeat rhythm (the way, say, old timey or rock or bluegrass does). Good players tend to shift the emphasis around, so in a reel, for example, the strong beats move among the 1 and 3 counts:
ONE two three four ONE two three four
ONE two THREE four one two THREE four
one two THREE four ONE two THREE four
ONE two three four one two THREE four
and so on.
To do this freely and fluidly you'll want to be able to accent a beat no matter which direction your bow is going, and no matter whether you single bow that note or it's part of a slur of two notes or three, four, or 12 notes all on one bow stroke.
Starting phrases on an up bow is quite common among Irish traditional fiddlers, though perhaps most prevalent in the Sligo style. But not at all unusual in Clare and other regional styles either. If you're in the habit of playing down beats with a down bow, don't be surprised if good trad fiddlers tease you for being classically trained.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
David Dude, contrary to your impression of Burke's playing, he frequently does strong emphasis with an up bow, particularly on down beats. I've seen this, in person, again and again.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Will,
Now that I think about it, you're also correct. Like all the great players, Kevin Burke varies what he is doing! (It's sounding like there's an echo in here!)
I think what I meant is that when he does a pattern of one note seperate, three notes slurred, which occurs pretty frequently in his playing, he tends to play the seperate bow with an up-bow, and the slurred notes with a down-bow. Like so:
ufeudv(c Bc)udv(B|AB)udv(e fe)udB
If he played the seperate bow on the down-beats, it would work out like this:
udv(BAB) udv(BAB)
Most other players that I'm aware of would tend to do the seperate bow with an down-bow, instead with an up-bow like he does.
Making sense now?
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by The David Dude
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
...instead OF with an up-bow like Kevin Burke does.
Sorry!
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by The David Dude
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Except that Kevin bows that sort of phrase either way, which is precisely the point--you can slur those three notes on either an up bow or a down bow.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
David, I didn't say that you were in a rut of bowing the tunes the same way. I said you were in a rut of playing the tunes the same way. An important distinction I feel, though Miss might disagree.
You say that the bowing came naturally for you but now you are looking for new ways to bow. My advice is that instead of specifically looking for new ways to bow a phrase, you should be looking for new ways to play a phrase. And once you have more flexibility in your phrasing, the new way of bowing that phrase will come naturally to you ... just like it is already coming naturally.
But you already know this. You describe it succinctly in your P.S.
I don't know why you should say that melodic variation should be outside the remit of this discussion. Melodic/Rhythmic (same thing in my book) variation is the consequence of the bow variation you're after. Or, as I would rather put it, bowing variation is the consequence of the melodic/rhythmic variation you're after.
I appreciate Will's' deconstructionist analytical approach, but I just feel sometimes that it's just a little "cart before the horse".
I like this clip. It's not to everyone's taste, but there's no denying it's inventiveness. I think it's obvious that he's not thinking about bowing in a specific way. His concentration is squarely on putting in as much variation as he thinks the tune can handle. He's showing off, of course, but that's OK. I particularly like the last bit when he almost loses it just before his crap corny coda.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1EU4ipTkRg&NR=1
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Slurring on up bows is fine, but starting a tune on an up bow?
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
James Morrison and Padraig O Keefe and George Whelan,were all recopgnised as excellent musicians and teachers, they all believed in marking bowing for pupils.
their books and the books of the other musicans I mentioned are excellent tools , that should be used in conjunction with listening to and absorbing the music, that is why I suggested for a start the Seamus Creagh teaching cd.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Dick Miles
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Mr Moderator, sir, my smilie was in response to a post that no longer exists. I wish to point out to all that it don't go with the post that is now above it. Thank you, sir.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
I should point out that the main reason I sometimes take a "deconstructionist analytical approach" is that I teach this stuff for a living. So I have to be able to explain the ins and outs (ups and downs?) of bowing. Seems that the people who can't suss it out on their own want it spelled out for them.
And even then, my approach is to remind people to simply sing the tune in their head and let it come out on the fiddle.
One potential problem of this more holistic approach is that less experienced fiddlers tend to fall back on old habits, and their bowing wants a nudge toward new ways of doing things. You can either just keep playing and wait till that happens, or you can sketch out a few different bowing ideas and try them intentionally and see what happens. I find the latter gets people bowing more freely sooner than they would otherwise.
Re: "Cart before the horse" Yep, exactly. I learned to play largely by trial and error and letting my bow hand do whatever it needed to to get the sounds I was after. Then, as a teacher, I studied what I was doing so I could explain it to others. Not everyone wants to wait 30 years to learn how to play. Maybe they should. But I'm not sure there's anything wrong with gaining an understanding of bowing based on someone else's experience, integrating that, and then just playing your heart out. I wish someone had explained some of this stuff to me when I was first starting out....
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
P.S. Apparently some people meed a more analytical approach to suss out all the possibilities. Otherwise, they're content to bow things they same way they always have, never trying even the most obvious options of, say, starting a tune on an up bow.
In my experience, it's not unusual to run into fiddlers who'll proudly say "I never think about my bowing--it just works." But listen to them and you'll hear a very limited set of bowing patterns and cliches. Often, their playing lacks variety and spontaneity--it's predictable and boring. I know because that was me at one stage in my playing.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
I start many tunes with an up bow - Kid on the Mountain, Humours of Tulla, some polkas - but not every time, probably. I can't say that I have analyzed these tunes and decided that up bow is the way to start. I like how the beginning phrase I play sounds when I start with an up bow, though. But I also like the phrase I play with a down bow. I sometimes like to start Kid on the Mountain with an up bow roll on the E, but maybe the second time through, I will play the EDE down up down. As I write this now, I really have to think about it, but I don't think about it when I'm playing it. This gets to David's question about being conscious of varying the bowing or creating variations. I don't have a good answer for that. It isn't a conscious decision for me (I don't say to myself "Okay self, next time through, separate those first three notes and play them down up down"), but I am aware of how I am playing the phrase when I'm playing it because I am listening. I'm also aware of how the others around me are playing the tune at the same time. Somtimes the way I am playing a tune reflects the way others playing. It really is something about being in the moment with the tune and other players. So, I have probably played Kid on the Mountain hundreds of times over the past 30 years or so, but each time, the "moment" is unique.
Not sure if this make much sense but it is something that David's question made me think about.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by John Culhane
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Good post, tacoman. Especially the bit about being aware of your own playing because you're listening. It's a a moment to moment awareness, not premeditated--simply cognizant of what's happening as the tune in your head pours out of the fiddle. That's a wonderful feeling.
Ultimately, all that us fiddlers are after when we bow is getting the sound we want out of the instrument. Ideally, it doesn't matter which direction the bow is going--*as long as we can make it sound the way we want either up or down.*
So if you're not sure you can do that, or you realize that some things feel fine one way but awkward the other, some conscious woodshedding might be in order.....
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods ~ off topic
So where does one start? Trial & error or analysis. imho, this is a valid question.
My quick self answer is trial & error. This way you begin with less preconceptions. Like a baby.
Those pesky preconceptions!
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
x-post. is conscious woodshedding trial & error or careful analysis?
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
**
I am not a fiddler & you are probably wondering why I care.
The other day when Michael mentioned left hand articulations it made perfect sense to me. Hard to explain but it did.
The following comment, by Will, is a bit more esoteric though just as valid. [that's twice I've said valid]
Re: What type of bowing practice?
July 13th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/18410/comments#comment384287
Pardon the interruptions. Keep a whistle in the fiddle case & 1 in the woodshed. ;)
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
LOL, how about "considered trial and error." By that I mean trial and error, but with tacoman's sense of listening while you play, so you notice what works and what doesn't, and you're aware of what you're doing.
Case in point. Ages ago Kevin Burke would deny that he used bowing patterns no matter how many people asked him to explain how he got the sound he did on just the sort of string crossings we've gone into on this thread. Then one student of his sat him down and made him listen to his own recordings so he could hear the same little bit in a handful of different tunes. Kevin had to admit that he frequently did the pedal bowing thing. Of course he did it with the bow going up or down--so it felt like less of a pattern to him. But it was a trademark of his pulse. Since then, Burke revisited his bowing, in part to deal with a shoulder injury. But he came out of it much freer and less predictable with his bow.
Some of the best bowing stuff happens in mid flight during a cranking set of reels in a session. You just hope you can do it again and remember what it feels and sounds like.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Maybe one starts with what llig talked about much earlier on this thread - listening to other fiddle players, watching what they do, absorbing it, and copying it to try out and learn a technique. The tricky part is turning what you copy into something that is your own, not just an imitation of what you heard. Books and exercises can give you some of this. But I think you need the experience of turning something you like that you heard someone else play into something you like hearing yourself play. As Georgi said, the technique you learn by copying someone else is invaluable to developing your own art.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by John Culhane
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Thanks Will. Great comment. I also re-read tacoman's comment & can relate 100%.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Good points all.
But with specific relation to " turning what you copy into something that is your own". I don't think there is any need to force this. Maybe forcing oneself to initially do something that for what ever reason should be natural but isn't, starting on an up stroke for example, but not trying to force the music to be your own. As long as you listen to lots of different players, you simply won't be able to stop being yourself.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
"Be yourself--everyone else is already taken." (Oscar Wilde)
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Good point, llig. There is no need to force this. I like that: "you simply won't be able to stop being yourself"
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by John Culhane
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
llig leahcim,
I'm understanding you now. Ironically, I find the best way for me to pick up melodic variations is to listen to several different players all playing the same tune. And listening is something that many have recommended already.
I also find that I tend to be more imaginative in varying the tune if :
a) I learn a tune through absorbing from many different sources, rather than learning by studying one recording alone. This form of picking up tunes would probably occur naturally if you were surrounded by musicians and attended sessions all the time, but that is something I unfortunately lack!
b) Or if I do learn from one recording alone, I learn from a player who is good at varying the melody. That really helps, because right off the bat, I've got a bunch of variations I can use at will!
Now of course, in the end I should be able to make up my own variations, but every little bit until I get there helps!
And the video - Frankie Gavin is definitely a fabulous player! (Though I'm not sure those variations are quite to my taste - too over the top and showy, IMO). One video I really like is of Oisin McAuley, the fiddle player with Danu: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8azZ0o1oI8 I'm not really sure his "variations" can really be called variations, because he's actually improvising for a few measure at a time, leaving the tune entirely! I don't think I personally would want to go there with my playing, but it's amazing how he pulls it off!
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by The David Dude
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Look at all the Youtube videos for the Gnuvellia (spelling?) and/or the Pride of Rathmore/ Paddy Cronin's(as heard on Kevin Burke's If The Cap Fits) Reel. This tune comes with either 2 or three parts in 2 or 3 distinctive settings, it is fun to play all of them together as variations of the same tune. I more or less play the same bowing for the A part (unless I play a melodic variation) and a lot of different bowing for the B part. And there are tons of variations that lend themselves well to this tune!
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/876
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWXzVNzOuzM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Swa_LUAm1Hw
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: The Various Cross-bowing Methods
Hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving! (llig leahcim, you can just be grateful along with us!)
Did anyone have any more comments, or is this thread pretty much finished?
# Posted on November 28th 2009 by The David Dude