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When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Previous discussions, regarding things like "What is the difference between a session and a performance ?" obviously provoked strong feelings and might not yet be resolved satisfactorily, so I might be treading on eggshells, but whatever.......
I bring this up after a recent visit elsewhere, advertised, promoted, named musicians, etc.
What do you call it when the leading musicians sit at the table, really don't engage with the others who came along, don't ask introductions, offer a chance to lead, ask for any requests, make any attempt to integrate any unknown people who have dropped in, and carry on playing their own repertoire without taking the trouble to find any common tunes with the other potential musicians ?
Is the idea in these cases to provide a larger audience for the 'performers', or is it intended to bring more musicians into the community ?
Is it still a session, or is it just a show ?
( Names have been withheld to protect the innocent ).
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Don't know the answer to that question, GP. No point going again, I imagine. I guess it's a clique - fair enough, it's their turf, they set it up, they play it together... Although it seems a bit lacking in something or other that I would look for in a night out, either at a show or a session. Better off at the pictures really. I hear the Coen Bros new movie is excellent.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Hey, Trucks, how old are those videos ? They seem to date from the days when we lived in black and white.......
And, Jim, you're right there, maybe it's their own show, might go to the movies instead, like you say. You were great in that Long Riders movie yourself, all those years ago......LOL.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
being the leader of a session presumabley allows you to lead lots of tunes, hence play lots of what you like, with others joining in.
i dream of starting a session right near my home, so i can take 65 instruments and do all my favourite tunes, instead of spending most of the night nodding along to other players gonquey sets.
however i think (and perhaps hope) that such a session would only last 1 week.
i think what i'm trying to say is that self indulgence is fine if you can cut it as a musician; but it has no place in a session; if that where you are its time to start selling tickets and tshirts.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Q: "What do you call it when the leading musicians sit at the table, really don't engage with the others who came along, don't ask introductions, offer a chance to lead, ask for any requests, make any attempt to integrate any unknown people who have dropped in, and carry on playing their own repertoire without taking the trouble to find any common tunes with the other potential musicians ?"
A: Their session
When visiting other people's sessions you can't expect that session to conform to your preconceptions. If you don't like their session, or feel you aren't contributing to it--it's not a session for you, obviously.
Personally I enjoy engaging other visiting musicians and drawing tunes out of them and finding out who they are etc... but that's me. I'm not going to expect everyone else to do the same or have the same kind of session I do. If I don't like a session I visit I leave. If I can't contribute to it because I don't know their tunes... I listen and enjoy it if they're good players. But neither of those things disqualifies it as a "session."
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I agree with the ghostly one.
Our session is friendly and emcouraging to visitors. We like meeting new people and involving them. That's how many of our regulars became regulars.
But just 'cos that's our outlook and suits us, I wouldn't expect every session to have the same outlook.
A session is a social night out with a group of friends. Not every night out wants to have strangers gatecrashing. MAybe they have a history of bad experiences or just want to relax with their mates.
I wouldn't be too critical of a session for not welcoming outsiders, although it doesn't sit with my personal outlook.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
If you take your instrument to a not-session, know all the tunes, and don't play, you are the superior player, not the tune-hog leading it.
It is their loss - theres always another night.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Will you go back?, probably not .
I actually like it when new people turn up to the session and cannot understand the eletist attitude shown by others some time .This Friday two fiddle players turned up I had not met before . One tdue to this very web site ( thanks J) they added something new to the session and I hope come back
Yes sometime we get some space pilots but they never last.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Pete, were you led to believe the session would be something different from the promotion/advertisements? Fair play, though. I know you are trying to protect the innocents. Just curious.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
G.P., What you describe could be considered a session, but it is not an event I would want to participate in. Unless of course, the person being ignored is a clueless piano accordion player who has never played Irish music before, but insists on constantly using his chord buttons, and noodling a melody that only occasionally approximates the tune. And he persists despite suggestions that he might need to learn the tunes, and lay off the chord buttons. In that case, standoffishness is a defense mechanism, although not as good a defense mechanism as telling the visitor the blunt truth about their contributions. (Is this an imaginary example or an actual event? I will not say, to protect the innocent!)
Were you led to believe, from the promotion/advertisements, that the session would be something different than what you experienced?
I hope my question makes more sense.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
GP asked: "Hey, Trucks, how old are those videos ? They seem to date from the days when we lived in black and white......."
That's so that we can't see either anything orange or anything green.
Nice clips, in their way, though.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
What do you call it when the leading musicians sit at the table, really don't engage with the others who came along, don't ask introductions, offer a chance to lead, ask for any requests, make any attempt to integrate any unknown people who have dropped in, and carry on playing their own repertoire without taking the trouble to find any common tunes with the other potential musicians ?
Is the idea in these cases to provide a larger audience for the 'performers', or is it intended to bring more musicians into the community ?
Is it still a session, or is it just a show ?
( Names have been withheld to protect the innocent ).
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
That my dear Guernsey Pete is a "real" traditional session, attended by purists.
A real traditional session for any one else has someone singing "The Fields of Athenry".
Unfortunately sites like this give credance to the belief that sessions had rules, were tunes only, you had to be good and all that nonsense.
The session grewfrom people gathering in a neighbour's kitchen before we had radio, TV, Computers and all the rest. Anything went.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
nothing too 'real' about that bodhran bliss, kitchens i've played in (although not always clean) have been the most friendly, re-enforcing my stance of always be 'inclusive' not exclusive
decades ago my dad taught me a fine lesson when i was getting worked up about a learner driver in front of me _ ''everyone has to learn sometime''
anyone can be great on the outside but not always so on the 'inside', so (out of respect) show it . . .
those that don't, in my opinion, are self-centred show-offs, not 'in tune with the spirit' of this tradition, am i wrong?
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Its all very well being inclusive, but one of the good things about running/leading your own session is that you can play all your favorite tunes. Sure chuck in a few old standards to be sociable but if someone visits a session, and doesn't know the tunes being played, well jeez , thats life. Perhaps what is needed is a bigger repertoire? maybe record the session and learn the tunes!
I mean, A session can easily become a'''' lowest common denominator session, round and round, the butterfly, Morrison's etc. If it were just the odd time well ok, but what happens if every time you run a session to be sociable you only play old standards? and then say they dont even know them? or could you play them slower! Where is the fun in that? Maybe he thought you'd know the tunes he played?
Ok maybe he is a self centered show off, but maybe he just fancied playing a few tunes and anyone who knows them is welcome to join in!
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
It's okay. The Chiff and Fipple uilleann piping forum seems to have acquired Jig now. Luckily for him it's way too heavily moderated for any rows break out.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
So there is instant karma. I keep meaning to join in the forums, maybe once I buy the flute (hopefully late February?) I keep talking about.
Where are the rows? I thought there was supposed to be a political topics sector.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
What the hell. I'll throw my hat in the ring.
It appears to be a session which *someone* is advertising as an open session, but there is a catch. In order to contribute, any newbie *must* be familiar with the tunes played by an inner core of players. Additional tunes (from newbies at least) are not asked for.
Fair play?
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Arsehole who thinks he's the dog's danglies goes to established session for first time and wrecks sets left right and centre and plays about six dozen tunes that no-one else can play, mostly with sh*te intonation. He then comes to TheSessiondotorg and moans about how unfriendly sessions can be and that they're probably not real sessions anyway.
Good chap, diffident sort of fellow who can play lots of tunes pretty well, goes along to same session and lurks for an hour or so before humbly suggesting that he might be allowed to play a tune or two, or at least join in. This happens, it goes down well and he and all the others have a whale of a time and thgey imp;lorte him to come back next week. He then comes to TheSessiondotorg and sings the praises of the friendly session.
Conclusion? Never listen to bollix on websites about friendly and unfriendly sessions. You are hearing one side of the tale only.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
"It appears to be a session which *someone* is advertising as an open session, but there is a catch. In order to contribute, any newbie *must* be familiar with the tunes played by an inner core of players. Additional tunes (from newbies at least) are not asked for.
Fair play?"
Yes... it's fair play. "Open session" means anyone who knows the music is welcomed to join in. If you don't know the tunes they're playing... that's not their fault, but does that mean they're supposed to drop what they're doing and cater to you? In my mind, that isn't fair play on your part if you expect it to cater to you--you're a visitor... remember?
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
nothing too 'real' about that bodhran bliss, kitchens i've played in (although not always clean) have been the most friendly, re-enforcing my stance of always be 'inclusive' not exclusive
decades ago my dad taught me a fine lesson when i was getting worked up about a learner driver in front of me _ ''everyone has to learn sometime''
anyone can be great on the outside but not always so on the 'inside', so (out of respect) show it . . .
those that don't, in my opinion, are self-centred show-offs, not 'in tune with the spirit' of this tradition, am i wrong?
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Fair play to Steve Shaw, a good session can be in the eye of the beholder. And I agree with bodhran bliss that a good session has some good songs as part of it.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I dont like tune hogs though! I do think its pretty ignorant as a host to ignore your guests and carry on as if they are not there. Jeez the least they could of done is offer the chance to start a set eh?!
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Yes, wicked, they could have, and we always do, but it still doesn't mean it's disqualified as being a session just because they might not have or might not to appear to have been inviting and encouraging the visitors. The bottom line is there are no set standards for what a session is or isn't--it's whatever the people who are having it want it to be. If you could just get your head around that you won't be upset if someone else's session doesn't match your own preconceptions and expectations.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Well, anyway........
........yesterday I was at a Sacred Harp singing session, doing those marvellous 4-part early 19th-c harmonies, full open-throat singing, makes you feel good for hours afterwards, all those endorphins released into the bloodstream, etc.. Now you might expect a hymn-singing group to have a 'holier-than-thou' attitude ( ! sorrry !, LOL ), but no, I was invited to take my turn picking hymns and leading from the middle of the square.
That, to me, is the way to do it, to be inclusive, and help newer members to learn, and to work up to the standards of the group.
By the way, BB, I won't sing "The Fields of Athenry" for anyone. Horrible ersatz song. I do have the words to the parody, though.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Haha.. I noticed Steve caught my subtle and understated response to Jig on Chiff and Fipple.
I agree with Phantom's last post -- a session is what the regulars want it to be. There are sessions where I don't like how the regulars want it to be, so I don't go to them. I play at sessions where I'm quite happy, but which other folk I know don't like for various reasons, and they don't go to them. Problem easily solved.
When you are regular at a session and are happy when it works a certain way, it's aggravating when a visitor comes in, and without even talking to or engaging with the regulars, proceeds to take over the session and play unceasing tunes that no one knows. Okay, that's extreme, but it happens! It may have happened to me recently.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Did you introduce yourself? I know you're supposed to sit there pleasantly with your instrument case and wait pensively, but I always figure saying hello isn't a bad way to go either. Sure can't hurt, and if does hurt them for you to introduce yourself, then do you want to be there anyway?
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I usually listen first and see if tunes are coming up that I know. If I don't hear any, or too few, I stay put. If it seems like there's enough tunes coming up that I know and could easily join in on at the pace they're playing... I will go up to the table between tunes and introduce myself and ask if they don't mind me sitting in. I have yet to be turned down by anyone with this approach. If I actually am able to follow through and play along and I don't disturb the flow of the music, they reach out to me in various friendly and sociable ways.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I was one of the newcomers who turned up at Bazouki Dave's session on Friday, and I'd just like to say thanks to him and Joe and the rest for making me so welcome. I thought this was exactly how a session should be.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Hi Pete - that really sounds like a performance. I've heard of sessions that are invite only, which is fine if that's how they're advertised. Other sessions might start out as being open to new musicians, but evolve into an unspoken invite only after the core group gets comfortable with each other.
I ran into a situation somewhat like this this past summer, so I got an Olympus WS-400S digital recorder and took it to a couple of sessions and learned a bunch of new tunes off it. I'll be going back to those sessions and if nothing else, at least I'll have learned some great new tunes which I can play later with other musicians at different sessions.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Fiddlephilia, people perform Irish music on their instruments regardless of whether it's a stage show or a session. Also, an "open session" doesn't necessarily mean it's a session that will cater to visitor's needs and desires. What it means is that anyone who knows the tunes and can play along is welcome to join in. A "closed session" is usually by invitation only... the session Pete describes wasn't that. But we really don't know what sort of session it was Pete visited because we weren't there. Any assumptions on our part are likely to be flawed.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Hi Pete, yes, I got most of the names from the other poor suckers sitting around waiting till the top 3 musicians would slow down enough to enable them to join in. (Never happened) Turns out there were alot of people there who knew the names, but didn't have the technical skills to keep up. Needless to say, most of them left after about an hour.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
It's the re-defining that gave the word "perform" new meaning on this website for some members. Perhaps you advocates of the change should submit your proposal for an up-date to Webster and see if they might accept it and add it in.
As for the session in question, I still don't know enough about it to pass any judgment or have an informed opinion, but it does remind me of an experience we had several years ago when a pub in the East Bay asked us to have a "session." The core group was myself and my mates and we assembled around a table the same way we would at our local to play tunes. The pub advertised the "session" as being open (per my suggestion) and when we showed up there were loads of musicians that I had never seen before. We conducted the session the same way we would normally and I noticed a majority of the people who showed up to play didn't seem to know our tunes except when the old standards came up. I invited people to start tunes now and then, (as I normally do,) and when I did the pace would drop considerably and the selection of tunes were usually from that same pool of old standards. I love and play those tunes, but we also enjoy playing loads of other tunes too.
The next time we convened for a session there hardly any of those people came back. Then I stumbled onto an Internet group where all of those people had a forum and discovered we were a huge topic there. They got word that a session was starting up and were actually plotting how to stage a coup and make it one of "their" sessions. The review of the session after that first night wasn't that much different from comments in this thread, and the highlight for me was when one of them congratulated another for "stumping" us with his original tunes. The discussion came to an abrupt end when I joined their discussion forum of course.
So it is for this reason that I remain skeptical about what actually happened at the session in question that this thread is based, and I am reminded of my own experience when I read the comments here attacking the notorious, "top 3 musicians." I would love to hear their side of the story.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
No one here redefined anything Jack. You simply seem unable to accept that even Webster's gives two to three (depending on whether you're using the transitive or intransitive form of the verb) distinct definitions for perform:
transitive verb
1 : to adhere to the terms of : fulfill <perform a contract>
2 : carry out, do
3 a : to do in a formal manner or according to prescribed ritual b : to give a rendition of : present
intransitive verb
1 : to carry out an action or pattern of behavior : act, function
2 : to give a performance : play
It's the quite common connotation of "to do in a formal manner," or "to present," or "to give a performance" that many sessioners object to because we're specifically *not* presenting or giving a performance of anything, certainly not formal, to anyone. And that's a meaningful distinction, lost on only yourself.
Of course you already know all this--we've been over it a hundred times. But go ahead and keep dredging up your fetish for "performance," and please keep ridiculing members here for our understanding of the distinctions between performances and sessions. It helps us understand why you get yourself into real-world mishaps like the one you describe above.
Re: You say other musicians were already there at this new session, yet you and your mates were the core. And few of the other musicians were up to your standard for the variety of tunes. And hardly any of them came back for the next "session." And they apparently felt put off by your behavior.
There is a common thread to your inability to see why session players might be put off by your penchant for calling it a performance, and the reaction you elicited from those folks in the East Bay. Of course it wasn't anything you did or said....Too bad you refuse to see it any other way.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I know the difference between different usages of a word, Will, but I don't need to redefine words to suit anyone's dogma. You go into a pub and perform Irish music on your instruments and you are performing... it is a performance... you can't get around that. Not a staged production or formal presentation, but you're still performing what you have learned to do on your given instrument... and if it's in a pub... it's a public performance. There's nothing wrong with this concept unless you want to redefine the word because it doesn't suit your personal perspective and feelings about what you're doing; but that doesn't mean you have the right to change the word for the rest of humanity. I am not in denial about what the act of performing is, and I have no reason to avoid the word. That fact has nothing whatsoever to do with my understanding of Irish traditional music; it only has to do with the language.
Will writes: "You say other musicians were already there at this new session, yet you and your mates were the core. And few of the other musicians were up to your standard for the variety of tunes. And hardly any of them came back for the next "session." And they apparently felt put off by your behavior."
It wasn't an established session--it was brand spanking new--first night. The musicians that were there turned up because they saw it advertised. We weren't asked to cater to the level of whatever musicians showed up; it's not our responsibility to change the way we conduct our session to suit visitors. If you want to do that with your session, I have no problem, but that doesn't define what a session is or is not. The fact is that they actually showed up with the intention of making our session cater to their preferences and desires and in effect to become "their session." Is that what you do when you visit other people's sessions, Will?
As for our behavior, we have successful and welcoming sessions at our local once or twice a week and we get visitors from all over the world. Most people are quite delighted with our sessions and come back as much as possible. If someone comes in with expectations of changing our session to suit their own personal objective, it doesn't go down well and those individuals probably don't come back and are also likely to go whine about it on Internet discussion boards I would imagine.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
"It wasn't an established session--it was brand spanking new."
Yet it was instantly "our" session and not theirs, eh? Do you still play there? Or did the locals keep it going, their way? Why did that brand spanking new session have to conform to *your* expectations and no one else's? Sounds like no one else had much of a voice in the matter. You brought your expectations to another part of town and chose not to "cater to whatever level of musicians that showed up." How welcoming of you. Sounds like a good session to avoid.
Like I said, your words here speak volumes about your attitude toward other musicians. It's no wonder the online discussion died out when you stumbled on it.
And your "performance" spiel is nothing more than ad infinitum rhetoric. That's fine if you believe saying something over and over--without a shred of logic or reasoning to back it up--somehow makes it true. Good luck with that.
As for your "welcoming" Plough and Stars session, I know at least one fiddler who visited, asked to sit in, and you (you as in you, Jack Gilder) told him no thanks without ever hearing him play. Yet when he bought you a round, you let him record a few sets. Too bad--you missed out on playing with a great fiddler who learned his tunes in Co. Clare.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Jack wrote: "That fact has nothing whatsoever to do with my understanding of Irish traditional music...."
Actually, given your comments on this thread, I think it's crystal clear that it has everything to do with how you understand this music and sessions. Based on your participation here over the years, I think it's obvious that your views on this music and sessioning are strongly colored by your formal music education and your penchant for performing on stage and recording cds. I really don't have a problem with that, but it's terribly, terribly tiresome when you repeatedly insist that the rest of us have to accept that we are doing public performance when we play in a session. ***That's*** dogma, and it's ***your*** dogma.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
How can you say that the "sessions are (not) perormances discussion" is not relevant to a discusion called "When is a session not a session"?
If someone insists that every session is a presentation of music to an audience, then they surely disable themselves from understanding the issues being discussed.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I didn't say it wasn't relevant ( I'm stealing your line llig, ). But I don't think there is a need to couch this discussion in those terms again and begin (en)trench(-ed) warfare yet again.
That specific fight was fought once again only a few days ago.
Yup, I have to admit that the OP specifically mentioned those terms in his first message. But the question as to whether or not every session is bound to welome visitors, and how far that welcome should extend*, which was the main point iof the OP as I read it, would surely be better addressed without rekindling the flame war (which will only bury the original enquiry in shrapnel).
I'd agree that the "performance" issue is relevant to this discussion. But it would be naive to think that focusing on that aspect of the question will result in anything other than a big fight over the semantics of "performance" rather than what is reasonable tom expect when visiting a session.
- chris
*And of course the implied question : how much should a visitor expect (rather than hope for) from a strange session?
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I completely agree.
The "presenting to an audience" thing (I'm trying not to use the word) is just one issue behind the "how welcoming to musicians is/should sessions be?" It's just that if you are stuck in a rut of not being able to stop presenting your music to an audience, or not even recognising that such a thing is possible, it's gonna skew you perspective somewhat.
For example, there's a closed session I go to occasionally that sometimes evolves into having to begin presenting. The subtle shift is interesting.
And in regular sessions that are open to beginners, it can be very obvious to a slightly shy beginner who else in the session is a grumpy show off, or a jolly and welcoming show off. It's the attitude of "I'm presenting my music to you to learn from", either grumpy or jolly and welcoming. As opposed to the grumpy geezer who just wants to play tunes with his mates and not be bothered with slowing down to accommodate anyone. And the jolly and welcoming type who will happily sit and play "with" (not for) anyone.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Michael's points above are precisely why I continue to challenge Jack when he insists that all sessions are presentations (implying "to an audience"). It's not a flame war, for me at least. It's a genuine disagreement over the ethos of a session. And because Jack is stuck on presenting his music, in every situation, he's prone to annoying people who session just for the sake of playing some tunes with friends. Which is why he gets the response he does when he skews sessions (including this forum) that way.
Sure, performances can be fun, too. But that's just one way of many to conduct a session. Many of us prefer a different attitude and approach.
I think this is all completely relevant to the OP's questions.
If you read these threads closely, you'll see that us "usual suspects" aren't flaming Jack. We're simply responding to his repeated, dogmatic, derisive assertions that sessions are *always* performances and those of us who think otherwise are "in denial," or "delusional," or "irrational," or we're too dumb to use a dictionary.
I'd rather not let Jack's peculiarly slanted opinions go unchallenged on this forum because there are enough people out there already who's understanding of live music is warped by our culture of performance and celebrity worship. Sessions are one haven for those of us who like to play music in public without it becoming a presentation to that public. Here in the States, it took some perseverance and explaining to help the locals (musicians and non-musicians alike) to fully grasp the distinction. Some "got it" right away, particularly those who'd been to local (not festival) sessions in small towns in Ireland. And nearly everyone enjoys our non-performance sessions (one or two people have moved on because our session didn't afford them the showcase they are looking for).
It's a huge difference in feel, and how tunes get played, and how people deal with the funny things that happen (like repeating a tune that's already been played, vis a vis the other current thread on that topic). Short and sweet: my local session is a musical potluck among friends and neighbors. It takes a little bit of vigilance to keep it from becoming musical dinner theater. I prefer the former.
If Jack wants his session to be a performance, that's fine. I'm not telling him what his session is (as he tells me that mine is a performance in the presentation sense of the word). I seriously doubt he'll ever get the distinction Michael and I are making. He's certainly free to keep disagreeing. But Jack could at least stop *ridiculing* us for our well-reasoned, experienced-based opinions. That, or the forum moderator could recognize Jack's pattern of posting for what it is, in light of the "be civil" rule, and act accordingly. But I'm not holding my breath.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
The irony here is that Jack continues to insist that all sessions in pubs are public performances. Yet when anyone suggests that his Plough and Stars session feels more like a gig than a session, he takes umbrage.
When I wrote above that Jack's formal music education and penchant for gigging and recording cds influence his experience of sessions, I was *not* meaning that as a put down. Just acknowledging that these things must sway his feel for playing the music in public. How could they not? Most music degrees are focused either on "music teaching" or "music performance." I suspect Jack's is the latter. It would be interesting to know.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Thats not necessarily the case mix, though it could be. Many a session is a bunch of folk who gel musically, enjoy playing together and simply have no need of external 'blood' to keep things fresh. They constantly bring new material in and play it in new and interesting ways.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Might this not entail rehersals during the week? I suppose the rehersals are closed too. Dead sessions can go on, and on, and on in a kind of hermeticall-sealed sort of way.
Re: When is a session a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I have heard of a vampire session, been around for ages, they are very accommodating of newcomers. In fact, they are it's lifeblood. Problem is you can only visit once. ;)
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Might..... but the core of a good session is often folk who do exactly that.
There are as many types of sessions as there are sessions. there is no right way and wrong way. A session is simply a bunch of folk playing tunes together, could be in a kitchin, a pub, or a stage, of no consequence where it is or the individuals motivations as to why they session.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Wickedhacker - I concede that your suggested approach might work - and only then if the session attendees were getting some external inspirations from elsehere - perhaps even from other sessions.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
The individuals' motivations have everything to do with what sort of session it is, and so whether newcomers, visitors, etc. are welcome or not.
Our rather isolated session here in Montana stays fresh through a number of ways. Our players travel to other sessions and bring back tunes. Seems like someone or other is always just coming back from Denver or Ireland or Friday Harbor or just up from Bozeman. We continue to plumb each other's repertoires for new old tunes. We learn from other players passing through. And most of us are learning other instruments as well, which brings vitality and variety. Plus we regularly play for dancers, both step and ceili. Finally, I run a weekly tune learning session, which introduces new tunes and supports new players as they gain the skills and tunes to fit in at the regular session.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Will, unless your alleged fiddler who "learned his tunes in County Clare" is willing to step forward and present what supposedly happened at our session, I will consider it pure fiction. We have never told any visiting fiddler they couldn't play at any session I have been to. So that isn't legitimate evidence and has no bearing on this discussion... sorry. I realize it's vital for you to put down our session in your effort to discredit me in these discussions, but inventing fables isn't going to do it.
The facts are that the session at The Plough have been on-going since 1975 and are well-attended and well-appreciated and attract players of all levels from all around the world. The only time anyone has been discouraged from joining in is if they were disruptive in some way. We have had players who seem to embrace your visitor-owns-the-session concept and expect us to suddenly alter what we're doing to accomidate their playing level and preferences, but we deal with them as gently as possible.
I also realize, Will, that you seem to find it necessary to paint me as someone who has no understanding of Irish music since I don't embrace the standards you have set for sessions in Montana that you expect the rest of the world to adhere to, but I prefer to instead take my cues from musicans who grew up in the tradition. I once asked Charlie Lennon about sessions and his answer was simple: he said the most improtant thing to do as a visitor to a session is not to interrupt the flow of the music whatever it happens to be. He said that was more important than determining whether the session is fair or democratic or anything else that you seem to demand from session regulars, Will. So who should I listen to...you or him?
When is an olive branch not an olive branch? ...ongoing . . .
Fair play! How about a thread discussing that comment; " the most important thing to do as a visitor to a session is not to interrupt the flow of the music . . . "
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Actually, if Charlie were to log in anonymously and assert that perspective I'm sure the hardline dogmatic self-proclaimed experts here would tell him he has no understanding of Irish music.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I think it's obvious who they are, Michael, they think they can establish session standards that the rest of the world should adhere to, and they think they can reinvent words in the English language to suit their whims regarding their personal feelings related to playing Irish music.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Just look at the premis of this thread... an attempt to redefine what a session is or isn't based on the visitor's perspective. If you fail to recognise the contradictions there and you support the notion that it's up to the visitors to determine a session's legitimacy--you're probably a hardliner.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Didn't we settle this once and for all around 2003?
Hmmm. Evidently not.
My only word is that at my session, plenty of individuals may 'perform' in the sense of playing something for the pleasure of their fellow musicians, but the pub can go eff itself.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
If you read Charlie Lennon's page about sessions, he has no problem welcoming and embracing people in the pub who happen to be listening and enjoying the music as part and parcel to the celebration. Why are you so contemptuous to them?
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
In the wild, don't alpha males eventually decide who will defer to who and get on with their lives? Here on the internet, that never seems to happen.
Reminds me of war college discussions of war termination theory, i.e. the study of how to bring wars to an end before every side has lost everything!
visitor - borrows - the - session?
" Sometimes a visitor will start a tune I don't particularly care for at an excruciatingly slow speed. Instead of joining in and speeding it up -- I listen. (sometimes from the jax or the bar) If this person takes it upon themselves to start a lot of tunes this way without being asked -- I get tempted."
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Jack, stick the the points I actually posted, not your fabrications of what you think I meant.
My fiddler friend and his experience at your session is quite real. Your sense of how others see your session is what appears to contradict reality. No worries--it's your session. If people don't want to bask in your glow, they shouldn't go to the Plough and Stars performance. Fair play. I've never said otherwise.
You didn't answer a single one of my questions about this "brand spanking new session" that you excluded locals from in East Bay. Have you kept that session going, or did the locals favor a different approach and do their own thing? What made it "your" session, since it was new and as yet undefined in terms of approach?
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
ramblingpitchfork, when visiting a session, your safest bet is to listen and watch to suss out what sort of session it is and consider (1) whether or not you can contribute (rather than detract) from the tunes and crack the locals are having, and (2) whether it's the sort of session you really *want* to sit in on. Every session is different, even the same local session from one week to the next.
Myself, I usually go in to an unfamiliar session with no expectations at all--just see what's up. Sometimes I join in, sometimes I just listen, and sometimes I walk away. But I join in only if invited (usually after striking up a chat with one of the players), and only if I feel like I can contribute and not detract.
And I would never set up a new session based only on my own sense of what a session should be. It's best a group decision, let to evolve to some sort of consensus, at least among the players who will show up every week and carry the tunes and crack.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
"If you read Charlie Lennon's page about sessions, he has no problem welcoming and embracing people in the pub who happen to be listening and enjoying the music as part and parcel to the celebration."
I really like this. That's the whole point, really. It's a celebration--of the music itself, and the crack you can have with friends and neighbors and strangers alike all playing it and enjoying it. Which gets to the heart of why separate people into performers and audience, or players and punters, etc.? I prefer to think of everyone in the pub as participants. Just one big happy party. That's the spirit of sessions that you pick up from older generations of players.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Hey Will, you just summed it up. Where we are, it's only the rare occasion we get some old boys in. When they're in, yes, we fecking play for them. But when it's the usual - the students, the bankers, the local communist party ffs (raises fist in air in solidarity and clutches satchel in lieu of security blanket... maybe even pulls the beret out of the inside duffelcoat pocket...) - sorry got distracted there.... but when the normal clientele is just that, then that's when it's feck 'em and enjoy the tunes. When the audience is 'actually' a real and informed audience, then of course we play for them.
I'm not sure how I got all that from your last, but I probably needed to say it.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Heh, when we've had some old boys in at our pub, they almost always join in, pulling a whistle out of their pocket, or singing a song, dancing a step or two, or just telling a joke.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I've never felt anything but incredibly welcomed at the Plough in the times I've visited San Francisco, and I never have had any sense that it was being conducted as a performance, it just seemed like every other good session I'd attended, with a mix of skill levels and clear demonstration of respect for everyone present. Every time I've been there, Jack has actively encouraged everyone in attendance to start a set at some point during the evening. Just putting it out there as an independent observer and visitor to Jack's session a couple of times a year over the past 10 years.
When I play in a sesssion, I really don't care if there is anyone else in the pub, or if there is, if they are enjoying or not enjoying the music. That's not why I'm there, I'm there to enjoy the music with my friends and fellow musicians. If other people enjoy the music, that's great, but its not where I have my attention. Once the attention shifts to providing entertainment to the listeners, rather than playing for the enjoyment of the players, that's not a session anymore, that's a performance, and it changes everything, generally for the worse, musically. At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Having just returned from a two week trip around California attending every session I could get to, 11 in total, (I couldn't get to SFO this trip... ), one thing is for sure, every session was different. Some were about consensus. Some were a showcase for a band, with trad sets between band sets, some were absolute beginners with one tune played at time, some were powerhouse players where I was bathed in amazing music and thrilled to be a participant. Some were in major cities, some were in rural areas 200 miles from any other session. For y'all to be arguing about what a session is or isn't just seems like a waste of bandwidth. The reality is that sessions in the USA are what those who regularly show up decide what they will be, based on their musical tastes and talent. The best thing all of us can do is walk into a session with an attitude of cheerful mindfulness and respect. When I played in a few sessions on my trip that were clearly absolute beginners, I made sure that when playing sets, I'd try to pick tunes that at least one of the players knew, but I was still clearly at "their" session, and because I was sensitive to their needs and empowered what they were good at, we all had a great time.
I agree with Jack, anyone can come play in our San Diego sessions who isn't disruptive, but that implies a value judgment about the term "disruptive", which clearly from the discussions on thesession.org is open to interpretation.
If I walk into someone else's session and talk about or try to impose my standards about tuning, number/quality of backup players, etc., no matter how "right" I might be, I'm the disruptive one for not respecting the local practices. Its their party, its their rules, I'm the outsider and my responsibility as a visitor is to make them right, not impose my beliefs.
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Michael, I agree. Where some people differ perhaps is in looking for some reciprocity. Yes, visitors should not "disrupt" the local session, and should respect local practices. But would it be wrong for the locals to also welcome a little outside flavor from a visitor? Obviously, that's up to each session. In my experience, most local sessions are very welcoming of visitors--and of the visitor's repertoire (enjoying hearing an unfamiliar tune, say), and style, and whatever crack and music the visitor can bring.
Most sessions do reciprocate in this way. A very few seem to prefer repeating the same experience every week, and they are less tolerant of change, of the unfamiliar, sometimes of "sharing the spotlight." Experienced players can usually blend in to such a session, though they may choose not to bother. Less experienced players, or people with an impaired sense of discretion, may make a botch of it. So it goes.
Clueless people aren't an affliction just of Irish sessions. In bluegrass circles, they call them "dancing bears" because of the havoc they can create. I suppose some sessions see more than their share of such interlopers. But in the OP, it sounds as though even respectful, sensitive musicians were given the cold shoulder. What's the point in that?
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
That's a closed session, why do the even bother allowing outsiders to join in? I have no problems with closed sessions, as long as it's clear what the situation is to everyone involved. If it is misrepresented, they should fix the communication. Still, ultimately, their party, their rules... Nothing says that you have to be nice and accepting to visitors. While that's not my policy, and I don't think it's one that sustains a scene, I can appreciate that it is a perfectly valid way to run a session where the focus is very narrow and the players are uncomfortable outside of their controlled environment. I've been to few of these, open sessions that were really closed, with bad attitudes towards visitors. The regulars with the bad attitude weren't particularly good players and radiated general disdain for the visitors. It's always a very odd experience attending such a session, I wonder, what the h*ll happened in past to cause such unpleasantness...
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Miss L:
>ramblingpitchfork, when visiting a session, your safest bet is to listen and watch to suss out what sort of session it is and consider (1) whether or not you can contribute (rather than detract) from the tunes and crack the locals are having, and (2) whether it's the sort of session you really *want* to sit in on. Every session is different, even the same local session from one week to the next. <
.
>And I would never set up a new session based only on my own sense of what a session should be. It's best a group decision, let to evolve to some sort of consensus, at least among the players who will show up every week and carry the tunes and crack<
Yeah I agree with all that, and with what Michael E said in his posts above too.
When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Previous discussions, regarding things like "What is the difference between a session and a performance ?" obviously provoked strong feelings and might not yet be resolved satisfactorily, so I might be treading on eggshells, but whatever.......
I bring this up after a recent visit elsewhere, advertised, promoted, named musicians, etc.
What do you call it when the leading musicians sit at the table, really don't engage with the others who came along, don't ask introductions, offer a chance to lead, ask for any requests, make any attempt to integrate any unknown people who have dropped in, and carry on playing their own repertoire without taking the trouble to find any common tunes with the other potential musicians ?
Is the idea in these cases to provide a larger audience for the 'performers', or is it intended to bring more musicians into the community ?
Is it still a session, or is it just a show ?
( Names have been withheld to protect the innocent ).
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Are you sure they are innocents?
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Don't know the answer to that question, GP. No point going again, I imagine. I guess it's a clique - fair enough, it's their turf, they set it up, they play it together... Although it seems a bit lacking in something or other that I would look for in a night out, either at a show or a session. Better off at the pictures really. I hear the Coen Bros new movie is excellent.
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Jim Younger
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
when is a session not a session- when thers no craic and you can hear the musli rustle in peoples pants
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
unlike this..another previously undiscovered you tube gem..some cake for your ears.. cracker
Herc session 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_khsMrI65R0
Herc session 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HtxHPXWD0E
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Hey, Trucks, how old are those videos ? They seem to date from the days when we lived in black and white.......
And, Jim, you're right there, maybe it's their own show, might go to the movies instead, like you say. You were great in that Long Riders movie yourself, all those years ago......LOL.
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
being the leader of a session presumabley allows you to lead lots of tunes, hence play lots of what you like, with others joining in.
i dream of starting a session right near my home, so i can take 65 instruments and do all my favourite tunes, instead of spending most of the night nodding along to other players gonquey sets.
however i think (and perhaps hope) that such a session would only last 1 week.
i think what i'm trying to say is that self indulgence is fine if you can cut it as a musician; but it has no place in a session; if that where you are its time to start selling tickets and tshirts.
clear as mud, no?
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by rumpole
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Q: "What do you call it when the leading musicians sit at the table, really don't engage with the others who came along, don't ask introductions, offer a chance to lead, ask for any requests, make any attempt to integrate any unknown people who have dropped in, and carry on playing their own repertoire without taking the trouble to find any common tunes with the other potential musicians ?"
A: Their session
When visiting other people's sessions you can't expect that session to conform to your preconceptions. If you don't like their session, or feel you aren't contributing to it--it's not a session for you, obviously.
Personally I enjoy engaging other visiting musicians and drawing tunes out of them and finding out who they are etc... but that's me. I'm not going to expect everyone else to do the same or have the same kind of session I do. If I don't like a session I visit I leave. If I can't contribute to it because I don't know their tunes... I listen and enjoy it if they're good players. But neither of those things disqualifies it as a "session."
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
A: a session with a death wish
If you're in a pub it isn't "your session" any more than your local is "your pub"
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Bren
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I agree with the ghostly one.
Our session is friendly and emcouraging to visitors. We like meeting new people and involving them. That's how many of our regulars became regulars.
But just 'cos that's our outlook and suits us, I wouldn't expect every session to have the same outlook.
A session is a social night out with a group of friends. Not every night out wants to have strangers gatecrashing. MAybe they have a history of bad experiences or just want to relax with their mates.
I wouldn't be too critical of a session for not welcoming outsiders, although it doesn't sit with my personal outlook.
- chris
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
If you take your instrument to a not-session, know all the tunes, and don't play, you are the superior player, not the tune-hog leading it.
It is their loss - theres always another night.
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by geoffwright
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Will you go back?, probably not .
I actually like it when new people turn up to the session and cannot understand the eletist attitude shown by others some time .This Friday two fiddle players turned up I had not met before . One tdue to this very web site ( thanks J) they added something new to the session and I hope come back
Yes sometime we get some space pilots but they never last.
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Pete, were you led to believe the session would be something different from the promotion/advertisements? Fair play, though. I know you are trying to protect the innocents. Just curious.
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
G.P., What you describe could be considered a session, but it is not an event I would want to participate in. Unless of course, the person being ignored is a clueless piano accordion player who has never played Irish music before, but insists on constantly using his chord buttons, and noodling a melody that only occasionally approximates the tune. And he persists despite suggestions that he might need to learn the tunes, and lay off the chord buttons. In that case, standoffishness is a defense mechanism, although not as good a defense mechanism as telling the visitor the blunt truth about their contributions. (Is this an imaginary example or an actual event? I will not say, to protect the innocent!)
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by AlBrown
Poor wording ~
Were you led to believe, from the promotion/advertisements, that the session would be something different than what you experienced?
I hope my question makes more sense.
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: When is a session not a session ?
When it's a fish.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
You can tuna fish, but can you tune a set of pipes?
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
GP asked: "Hey, Trucks, how old are those videos ? They seem to date from the days when we lived in black and white......."
That's so that we can't see either anything orange or anything green.
Nice clips, in their way, though.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Linsey Doyle
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
What do you call it when the leading musicians sit at the table, really don't engage with the others who came along, don't ask introductions, offer a chance to lead, ask for any requests, make any attempt to integrate any unknown people who have dropped in, and carry on playing their own repertoire without taking the trouble to find any common tunes with the other potential musicians ?
Is the idea in these cases to provide a larger audience for the 'performers', or is it intended to bring more musicians into the community ?
Is it still a session, or is it just a show ?
( Names have been withheld to protect the innocent ).
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
That my dear Guernsey Pete is a "real" traditional session, attended by purists.
A real traditional session for any one else has someone singing "The Fields of Athenry".
Unfortunately sites like this give credance to the belief that sessions had rules, were tunes only, you had to be good and all that nonsense.
The session grewfrom people gathering in a neighbour's kitchen before we had radio, TV, Computers and all the rest. Anything went.
Even (especially) bodhrans.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Nah, Emily was closest. Where's the banter?
Wait . . . Here it is, "Even (especially) bodhrans."
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
nothing too 'real' about that bodhran bliss, kitchens i've played in (although not always clean) have been the most friendly, re-enforcing my stance of always be 'inclusive' not exclusive
decades ago my dad taught me a fine lesson when i was getting worked up about a learner driver in front of me _ ''everyone has to learn sometime''
anyone can be great on the outside but not always so on the 'inside', so (out of respect) show it . . .
those that don't, in my opinion, are self-centred show-offs, not 'in tune with the spirit' of this tradition, am i wrong?
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by lisaniska
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I think it's being inclusive, having a bit of give and take, that I value.
No, I probably won't be going back.
It's a pity, it wasn't too far from me.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Its all very well being inclusive, but one of the good things about running/leading your own session is that you can play all your favorite tunes. Sure chuck in a few old standards to be sociable but if someone visits a session, and doesn't know the tunes being played, well jeez , thats life. Perhaps what is needed is a bigger repertoire? maybe record the session and learn the tunes!
I mean, A session can easily become a'''' lowest common denominator session, round and round, the butterfly, Morrison's etc. If it were just the odd time well ok, but what happens if every time you run a session to be sociable you only play old standards? and then say they dont even know them? or could you play them slower! Where is the fun in that? Maybe he thought you'd know the tunes he played?
Ok maybe he is a self centered show off, but maybe he just fancied playing a few tunes and anyone who knows them is welcome to join in!
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
When is a discussions not an ...ongoing discussion.....
When it's posted on another site.
I didn't say Chiff & Fipple. They just make it appear as if they are coming up with new topics.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
It's okay. The Chiff and Fipple uilleann piping forum seems to have acquired Jig now. Luckily for him it's way too heavily moderated for any rows break out.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
So there is instant karma. I keep meaning to join in the forums, maybe once I buy the flute (hopefully late February?) I keep talking about.
Where are the rows? I thought there was supposed to be a political topics sector.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
What the hell. I'll throw my hat in the ring.
It appears to be a session which *someone* is advertising as an open session, but there is a catch. In order to contribute, any newbie *must* be familiar with the tunes played by an inner core of players. Additional tunes (from newbies at least) are not asked for.
Fair play?
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Arsehole who thinks he's the dog's danglies goes to established session for first time and wrecks sets left right and centre and plays about six dozen tunes that no-one else can play, mostly with sh*te intonation. He then comes to TheSessiondotorg and moans about how unfriendly sessions can be and that they're probably not real sessions anyway.
Good chap, diffident sort of fellow who can play lots of tunes pretty well, goes along to same session and lurks for an hour or so before humbly suggesting that he might be allowed to play a tune or two, or at least join in. This happens, it goes down well and he and all the others have a whale of a time and thgey imp;lorte him to come back next week. He then comes to TheSessiondotorg and sings the praises of the friendly session.
Conclusion? Never listen to bollix on websites about friendly and unfriendly sessions. You are hearing one side of the tale only.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
they implore
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
All too true.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
"It appears to be a session which *someone* is advertising as an open session, but there is a catch. In order to contribute, any newbie *must* be familiar with the tunes played by an inner core of players. Additional tunes (from newbies at least) are not asked for.
Fair play?"
Yes... it's fair play. "Open session" means anyone who knows the music is welcomed to join in. If you don't know the tunes they're playing... that's not their fault, but does that mean they're supposed to drop what they're doing and cater to you? In my mind, that isn't fair play on your part if you expect it to cater to you--you're a visitor... remember?
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
nothing too 'real' about that bodhran bliss, kitchens i've played in (although not always clean) have been the most friendly, re-enforcing my stance of always be 'inclusive' not exclusive
decades ago my dad taught me a fine lesson when i was getting worked up about a learner driver in front of me _ ''everyone has to learn sometime''
anyone can be great on the outside but not always so on the 'inside', so (out of respect) show it . . .
those that don't, in my opinion, are self-centred show-offs, not 'in tune with the spirit' of this tradition, am i wrong?
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by lisaniska
So you agree with me?
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Fair play to Steve Shaw, a good session can be in the eye of the beholder. And I agree with bodhran bliss that a good session has some good songs as part of it.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by AlBrown
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I dont like tune hogs though! I do think its pretty ignorant as a host to ignore your guests and carry on as if they are not there. Jeez the least they could of done is offer the chance to start a set eh?!
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Yes, wicked, they could have, and we always do, but it still doesn't mean it's disqualified as being a session just because they might not have or might not to appear to have been inviting and encouraging the visitors. The bottom line is there are no set standards for what a session is or isn't--it's whatever the people who are having it want it to be. If you could just get your head around that you won't be upset if someone else's session doesn't match your own preconceptions and expectations.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Well, anyway........
........yesterday I was at a Sacred Harp singing session, doing those marvellous 4-part early 19th-c harmonies, full open-throat singing, makes you feel good for hours afterwards, all those endorphins released into the bloodstream, etc.. Now you might expect a hymn-singing group to have a 'holier-than-thou' attitude ( ! sorrry !, LOL ), but no, I was invited to take my turn picking hymns and leading from the middle of the square.
That, to me, is the way to do it, to be inclusive, and help newer members to learn, and to work up to the standards of the group.
By the way, BB, I won't sing "The Fields of Athenry" for anyone. Horrible ersatz song. I do have the words to the parody, though.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Haha.. I noticed Steve caught my subtle and understated response to Jig on Chiff and Fipple.
I agree with Phantom's last post -- a session is what the regulars want it to be. There are sessions where I don't like how the regulars want it to be, so I don't go to them. I play at sessions where I'm quite happy, but which other folk I know don't like for various reasons, and they don't go to them. Problem easily solved.
When you are regular at a session and are happy when it works a certain way, it's aggravating when a visitor comes in, and without even talking to or engaging with the regulars, proceeds to take over the session and play unceasing tunes that no one knows. Okay, that's extreme, but it happens! It may have happened to me recently.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Let's hope he enjoys himself so much over there that....never mind!
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Did you introduce yourself? I know you're supposed to sit there pleasantly with your instrument case and wait pensively, but I always figure saying hello isn't a bad way to go either. Sure can't hurt, and if does hurt them for you to introduce yourself, then do you want to be there anyway?
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I usually listen first and see if tunes are coming up that I know. If I don't hear any, or too few, I stay put. If it seems like there's enough tunes coming up that I know and could easily join in on at the pace they're playing... I will go up to the table between tunes and introduce myself and ask if they don't mind me sitting in. I have yet to be turned down by anyone with this approach. If I actually am able to follow through and play along and I don't disturb the flow of the music, they reach out to me in various friendly and sociable ways.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Exactly.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I was one of the newcomers who turned up at Bazouki Dave's session on Friday, and I'd just like to say thanks to him and Joe and the rest for making me so welcome. I thought this was exactly how a session should be.
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by Bernie 29
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Every session is different, Bernie... there's no standard.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Hi Pete - that really sounds like a performance. I've heard of sessions that are invite only, which is fine if that's how they're advertised. Other sessions might start out as being open to new musicians, but evolve into an unspoken invite only after the core group gets comfortable with each other.
I ran into a situation somewhat like this this past summer, so I got an Olympus WS-400S digital recorder and took it to a couple of sessions and learned a bunch of new tunes off it. I'll be going back to those sessions and if nothing else, at least I'll have learned some great new tunes which I can play later with other musicians at different sessions.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Fiddlephilia
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Yes, but do you know their names ? ( The tunes, I mean, but I suppose the musicians too. )
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Fiddlephilia, people perform Irish music on their instruments regardless of whether it's a stage show or a session. Also, an "open session" doesn't necessarily mean it's a session that will cater to visitor's needs and desires. What it means is that anyone who knows the tunes and can play along is welcome to join in. A "closed session" is usually by invitation only... the session Pete describes wasn't that. But we really don't know what sort of session it was Pete visited because we weren't there. Any assumptions on our part are likely to be flawed.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Hi Pete, yes, I got most of the names from the other poor suckers sitting around waiting till the top 3 musicians would slow down enough to enable them to join in. (Never happened) Turns out there were alot of people there who knew the names, but didn't have the technical skills to keep up. Needless to say, most of them left after about an hour.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Fiddlephilia
$64,000 question
Which board members' dictionary is dogeared on the page with the definition of performance?
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
definitions Random. Plural. It was the in-acceptance that words can have quite separate meanings that got us into this mess in the first place
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Cheer(s)!
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
It's the re-defining that gave the word "perform" new meaning on this website for some members. Perhaps you advocates of the change should submit your proposal for an up-date to Webster and see if they might accept it and add it in.
As for the session in question, I still don't know enough about it to pass any judgment or have an informed opinion, but it does remind me of an experience we had several years ago when a pub in the East Bay asked us to have a "session." The core group was myself and my mates and we assembled around a table the same way we would at our local to play tunes. The pub advertised the "session" as being open (per my suggestion) and when we showed up there were loads of musicians that I had never seen before. We conducted the session the same way we would normally and I noticed a majority of the people who showed up to play didn't seem to know our tunes except when the old standards came up. I invited people to start tunes now and then, (as I normally do,) and when I did the pace would drop considerably and the selection of tunes were usually from that same pool of old standards. I love and play those tunes, but we also enjoy playing loads of other tunes too.
The next time we convened for a session there hardly any of those people came back. Then I stumbled onto an Internet group where all of those people had a forum and discovered we were a huge topic there. They got word that a session was starting up and were actually plotting how to stage a coup and make it one of "their" sessions. The review of the session after that first night wasn't that much different from comments in this thread, and the highlight for me was when one of them congratulated another for "stumping" us with his original tunes. The discussion came to an abrupt end when I joined their discussion forum of course.
So it is for this reason that I remain skeptical about what actually happened at the session in question that this thread is based, and I am reminded of my own experience when I read the comments here attacking the notorious, "top 3 musicians." I would love to hear their side of the story.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
No one here redefined anything Jack. You simply seem unable to accept that even Webster's gives two to three (depending on whether you're using the transitive or intransitive form of the verb) distinct definitions for perform:
transitive verb
1 : to adhere to the terms of : fulfill <perform a contract>
2 : carry out, do
3 a : to do in a formal manner or according to prescribed ritual b : to give a rendition of : present
intransitive verb
1 : to carry out an action or pattern of behavior : act, function
2 : to give a performance : play
It's the quite common connotation of "to do in a formal manner," or "to present," or "to give a performance" that many sessioners object to because we're specifically *not* presenting or giving a performance of anything, certainly not formal, to anyone. And that's a meaningful distinction, lost on only yourself.
Of course you already know all this--we've been over it a hundred times. But go ahead and keep dredging up your fetish for "performance," and please keep ridiculing members here for our understanding of the distinctions between performances and sessions. It helps us understand why you get yourself into real-world mishaps like the one you describe above.
Re: You say other musicians were already there at this new session, yet you and your mates were the core. And few of the other musicians were up to your standard for the variety of tunes. And hardly any of them came back for the next "session." And they apparently felt put off by your behavior.
There is a common thread to your inability to see why session players might be put off by your penchant for calling it a performance, and the reaction you elicited from those folks in the East Bay. Of course it wasn't anything you did or said....Too bad you refuse to see it any other way.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I know the difference between different usages of a word, Will, but I don't need to redefine words to suit anyone's dogma. You go into a pub and perform Irish music on your instruments and you are performing... it is a performance... you can't get around that. Not a staged production or formal presentation, but you're still performing what you have learned to do on your given instrument... and if it's in a pub... it's a public performance. There's nothing wrong with this concept unless you want to redefine the word because it doesn't suit your personal perspective and feelings about what you're doing; but that doesn't mean you have the right to change the word for the rest of humanity. I am not in denial about what the act of performing is, and I have no reason to avoid the word. That fact has nothing whatsoever to do with my understanding of Irish traditional music; it only has to do with the language.
Will writes: "You say other musicians were already there at this new session, yet you and your mates were the core. And few of the other musicians were up to your standard for the variety of tunes. And hardly any of them came back for the next "session." And they apparently felt put off by your behavior."
It wasn't an established session--it was brand spanking new--first night. The musicians that were there turned up because they saw it advertised. We weren't asked to cater to the level of whatever musicians showed up; it's not our responsibility to change the way we conduct our session to suit visitors. If you want to do that with your session, I have no problem, but that doesn't define what a session is or is not. The fact is that they actually showed up with the intention of making our session cater to their preferences and desires and in effect to become "their session." Is that what you do when you visit other people's sessions, Will?
As for our behavior, we have successful and welcoming sessions at our local once or twice a week and we get visitors from all over the world. Most people are quite delighted with our sessions and come back as much as possible. If someone comes in with expectations of changing our session to suit their own personal objective, it doesn't go down well and those individuals probably don't come back and are also likely to go whine about it on Internet discussion boards I would imagine.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
"It wasn't an established session--it was brand spanking new."
Yet it was instantly "our" session and not theirs, eh? Do you still play there? Or did the locals keep it going, their way? Why did that brand spanking new session have to conform to *your* expectations and no one else's? Sounds like no one else had much of a voice in the matter. You brought your expectations to another part of town and chose not to "cater to whatever level of musicians that showed up." How welcoming of you. Sounds like a good session to avoid.
Like I said, your words here speak volumes about your attitude toward other musicians. It's no wonder the online discussion died out when you stumbled on it.
And your "performance" spiel is nothing more than ad infinitum rhetoric. That's fine if you believe saying something over and over--without a shred of logic or reasoning to back it up--somehow makes it true. Good luck with that.
As for your "welcoming" Plough and Stars session, I know at least one fiddler who visited, asked to sit in, and you (you as in you, Jack Gilder) told him no thanks without ever hearing him play. Yet when he bought you a round, you let him record a few sets. Too bad--you missed out on playing with a great fiddler who learned his tunes in Co. Clare.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Jack wrote: "That fact has nothing whatsoever to do with my understanding of Irish traditional music...."
Actually, given your comments on this thread, I think it's crystal clear that it has everything to do with how you understand this music and sessions. Based on your participation here over the years, I think it's obvious that your views on this music and sessioning are strongly colored by your formal music education and your penchant for performing on stage and recording cds. I really don't have a problem with that, but it's terribly, terribly tiresome when you repeatedly insist that the rest of us have to accept that we are doing public performance when we play in a session. ***That's*** dogma, and it's ***your*** dogma.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Guys, is it really necessary to go down the sessions are (not) perormances discussion route again so soon after the last time?
There is obviously strong opinions on both sides that are unlikely to change (I have my own opinion myself).
I can't see any benefit whatever to anyone, yourselves included, in starting this up again. Of course you may not agree.
- chris
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
How can you say that the "sessions are (not) perormances discussion" is not relevant to a discusion called "When is a session not a session"?
If someone insists that every session is a presentation of music to an audience, then they surely disable themselves from understanding the issues being discussed.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I didn't say it wasn't relevant (
I'm stealing your line llig, ). But I don't think there is a need to couch this discussion in those terms again and begin (en)trench(-ed) warfare yet again.
That specific fight was fought once again only a few days ago.
Yup, I have to admit that the OP specifically mentioned those terms in his first message. But the question as to whether or not every session is bound to welome visitors, and how far that welcome should extend*, which was the main point iof the OP as I read it, would surely be better addressed without rekindling the flame war (which will only bury the original enquiry in shrapnel).
I'd agree that the "performance" issue is relevant to this discussion. But it would be naive to think that focusing on that aspect of the question will result in anything other than a big fight over the semantics of "performance" rather than what is reasonable tom expect when visiting a session.
- chris
*And of course the implied question : how much should a visitor expect (rather than hope for) from a strange session?
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I completely agree.
The "presenting to an audience" thing (I'm trying not to use the word) is just one issue behind the "how welcoming to musicians is/should sessions be?" It's just that if you are stuck in a rut of not being able to stop presenting your music to an audience, or not even recognising that such a thing is possible, it's gonna skew you perspective somewhat.
For example, there's a closed session I go to occasionally that sometimes evolves into having to begin presenting. The subtle shift is interesting.
And in regular sessions that are open to beginners, it can be very obvious to a slightly shy beginner who else in the session is a grumpy show off, or a jolly and welcoming show off. It's the attitude of "I'm presenting my music to you to learn from", either grumpy or jolly and welcoming. As opposed to the grumpy geezer who just wants to play tunes with his mates and not be bothered with slowing down to accommodate anyone. And the jolly and welcoming type who will happily sit and play "with" (not for) anyone.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Michael's points above are precisely why I continue to challenge Jack when he insists that all sessions are presentations (implying "to an audience"). It's not a flame war, for me at least. It's a genuine disagreement over the ethos of a session. And because Jack is stuck on presenting his music, in every situation, he's prone to annoying people who session just for the sake of playing some tunes with friends. Which is why he gets the response he does when he skews sessions (including this forum) that way.
Sure, performances can be fun, too. But that's just one way of many to conduct a session. Many of us prefer a different attitude and approach.
I think this is all completely relevant to the OP's questions.
If you read these threads closely, you'll see that us "usual suspects" aren't flaming Jack. We're simply responding to his repeated, dogmatic, derisive assertions that sessions are *always* performances and those of us who think otherwise are "in denial," or "delusional," or "irrational," or we're too dumb to use a dictionary.
I'd rather not let Jack's peculiarly slanted opinions go unchallenged on this forum because there are enough people out there already who's understanding of live music is warped by our culture of performance and celebrity worship. Sessions are one haven for those of us who like to play music in public without it becoming a presentation to that public. Here in the States, it took some perseverance and explaining to help the locals (musicians and non-musicians alike) to fully grasp the distinction. Some "got it" right away, particularly those who'd been to local (not festival) sessions in small towns in Ireland. And nearly everyone enjoys our non-performance sessions (one or two people have moved on because our session didn't afford them the showcase they are looking for).
It's a huge difference in feel, and how tunes get played, and how people deal with the funny things that happen (like repeating a tune that's already been played, vis a vis the other current thread on that topic). Short and sweet: my local session is a musical potluck among friends and neighbors. It takes a little bit of vigilance to keep it from becoming musical dinner theater. I prefer the former.
If Jack wants his session to be a performance, that's fine. I'm not telling him what his session is (as he tells me that mine is a performance in the presentation sense of the word). I seriously doubt he'll ever get the distinction Michael and I are making. He's certainly free to keep disagreeing. But Jack could at least stop *ridiculing* us for our well-reasoned, experienced-based opinions. That, or the forum moderator could recognize Jack's pattern of posting for what it is, in light of the "be civil" rule, and act accordingly. But I'm not holding my breath.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
The irony here is that Jack continues to insist that all sessions in pubs are public performances. Yet when anyone suggests that his Plough and Stars session feels more like a gig than a session, he takes umbrage.
When I wrote above that Jack's formal music education and penchant for gigging and recording cds influence his experience of sessions, I was *not* meaning that as a put down. Just acknowledging that these things must sway his feel for playing the music in public. How could they not? Most music degrees are focused either on "music teaching" or "music performance." I suspect Jack's is the latter. It would be interesting to know.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
On the topic of welcoming and encouraging newcomers to your session ...
Sure, it's not compulsory to make any effort on this front, but if you cold-shoulder newcomers, they won't come again.
Which means that you will just get them same people and the same tunes week after week, and your session will stagnate and probably die.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Thats not necessarily the case mix, though it could be. Many a session is a bunch of folk who gel musically, enjoy playing together and simply have no need of external 'blood' to keep things fresh. They constantly bring new material in and play it in new and interesting ways.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Might this not entail rehersals during the week? I suppose the rehersals are closed too. Dead sessions can go on, and on, and on in a kind of hermeticall-sealed sort of way.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: When is a session a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I have heard of a vampire session, been around for ages, they are very accommodating of newcomers. In fact, they are it's lifeblood. Problem is you can only visit once. ;)
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
X
cross-post. the session I described in *undead* They don't use the dead word.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Might..... but the core of a good session is often folk who do exactly that.
There are as many types of sessions as there are sessions. there is no right way and wrong way. A session is simply a bunch of folk playing tunes together, could be in a kitchin, a pub, or a stage, of no consequence where it is or the individuals motivations as to why they session.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Wickedhacker - I concede that your suggested approach might work - and only then if the session attendees were getting some external inspirations from elsehere - perhaps even from other sessions.
"No man is an island" (John Donne)
.. I''ll develop that idea ...
... no session is an island.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
The individuals' motivations have everything to do with what sort of session it is, and so whether newcomers, visitors, etc. are welcome or not.
Our rather isolated session here in Montana stays fresh through a number of ways. Our players travel to other sessions and bring back tunes. Seems like someone or other is always just coming back from Denver or Ireland or Friday Harbor or just up from Bozeman. We continue to plumb each other's repertoires for new old tunes. We learn from other players passing through. And most of us are learning other instruments as well, which brings vitality and variety. Plus we regularly play for dancers, both step and ceili. Finally, I run a weekly tune learning session, which introduces new tunes and supports new players as they gain the skills and tunes to fit in at the regular session.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
No man's an island
(except when you're in the bath)
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Will, unless your alleged fiddler who "learned his tunes in County Clare" is willing to step forward and present what supposedly happened at our session, I will consider it pure fiction. We have never told any visiting fiddler they couldn't play at any session I have been to. So that isn't legitimate evidence and has no bearing on this discussion... sorry. I realize it's vital for you to put down our session in your effort to discredit me in these discussions, but inventing fables isn't going to do it.
The facts are that the session at The Plough have been on-going since 1975 and are well-attended and well-appreciated and attract players of all levels from all around the world. The only time anyone has been discouraged from joining in is if they were disruptive in some way. We have had players who seem to embrace your visitor-owns-the-session concept and expect us to suddenly alter what we're doing to accomidate their playing level and preferences, but we deal with them as gently as possible.
I also realize, Will, that you seem to find it necessary to paint me as someone who has no understanding of Irish music since I don't embrace the standards you have set for sessions in Montana that you expect the rest of the world to adhere to, but I prefer to instead take my cues from musicans who grew up in the tradition. I once asked Charlie Lennon about sessions and his answer was simple: he said the most improtant thing to do as a visitor to a session is not to interrupt the flow of the music whatever it happens to be. He said that was more important than determining whether the session is fair or democratic or anything else that you seem to demand from session regulars, Will. So who should I listen to...you or him?
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by Phantom Button
When is an olive branch not an olive branch? ...ongoing . . .
Fair play! How about a thread discussing that comment; " the most important thing to do as a visitor to a session is not to interrupt the flow of the music . . . "
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Actually, if Charlie were to log in anonymously and assert that perspective I'm sure the hardline dogmatic self-proclaimed experts here would tell him he has no understanding of Irish music.
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Why is that hardline dogmatic self-proclaimed experts here not know who they are?
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I think it's obvious who they are, Michael, they think they can establish session standards that the rest of the world should adhere to, and they think they can reinvent words in the English language to suit their whims regarding their personal feelings related to playing Irish music.
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Just look at the premis of this thread... an attempt to redefine what a session is or isn't based on the visitor's perspective. If you fail to recognise the contradictions there and you support the notion that it's up to the visitors to determine a session's legitimacy--you're probably a hardliner.
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Ha ha, bloody brilliant, it's obvious who "they" are.
Unlike you, I know I often take a dogmatic hard line on things. However, I'm always a champion of contradiction.
(Though I'd like to know where you came to the conclusion that I think "it's up to the visitors to determine a session's legitimacy"?)
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
"(Though I'd like to know where you came to the conclusion that I think "it's up to the visitors to determine a session's legitimacy"?)"
Please show me where I claimed you thought that.
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Didn't we settle this once and for all around 2003?
Hmmm. Evidently not.
My only word is that at my session, plenty of individuals may 'perform' in the sense of playing something for the pleasure of their fellow musicians, but the pub can go eff itself.
Love light and peace
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by mutatis mutandis
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
If you read Charlie Lennon's page about sessions, he has no problem welcoming and embracing people in the pub who happen to be listening and enjoying the music as part and parcel to the celebration. Why are you so contemptuous to them?
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I'm not contemptuous of them, I'm indifferent.
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Amorality as opposed to immorality. I quite understand. There are always evenings which are an exception of course.
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by mutatis mutandis
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
In the wild, don't alpha males eventually decide who will defer to who and get on with their lives? Here on the internet, that never seems to happen.
Reminds me of war college discussions of war termination theory, i.e. the study of how to bring wars to an end before every side has lost everything!
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Al - it's a shame we can't get them all into the same bar isn't it?
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by mutatis mutandis
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
That might solve it!
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
For the record. Exactly where did, you know who, state his, "visitor - owns - the - session" comment?
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
~
visitor - borrows - the - session?
" Sometimes a visitor will start a tune I don't particularly care for at an excruciatingly slow speed. Instead of joining in and speeding it up -- I listen. (sometimes from the jax or the bar) If this person takes it upon themselves to start a lot of tunes this way without being asked -- I get tempted."
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Jack, stick the the points I actually posted, not your fabrications of what you think I meant.
My fiddler friend and his experience at your session is quite real. Your sense of how others see your session is what appears to contradict reality. No worries--it's your session. If people don't want to bask in your glow, they shouldn't go to the Plough and Stars performance. Fair play. I've never said otherwise.
You didn't answer a single one of my questions about this "brand spanking new session" that you excluded locals from in East Bay. Have you kept that session going, or did the locals favor a different approach and do their own thing? What made it "your" session, since it was new and as yet undefined in terms of approach?
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
ramblingpitchfork, when visiting a session, your safest bet is to listen and watch to suss out what sort of session it is and consider (1) whether or not you can contribute (rather than detract) from the tunes and crack the locals are having, and (2) whether it's the sort of session you really *want* to sit in on. Every session is different, even the same local session from one week to the next.
Myself, I usually go in to an unfamiliar session with no expectations at all--just see what's up. Sometimes I join in, sometimes I just listen, and sometimes I walk away. But I join in only if invited (usually after striking up a chat with one of the players), and only if I feel like I can contribute and not detract.
And I would never set up a new session based only on my own sense of what a session should be. It's best a group decision, let to evolve to some sort of consensus, at least among the players who will show up every week and carry the tunes and crack.
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
"If you read Charlie Lennon's page about sessions, he has no problem welcoming and embracing people in the pub who happen to be listening and enjoying the music as part and parcel to the celebration."
I really like this. That's the whole point, really. It's a celebration--of the music itself, and the crack you can have with friends and neighbors and strangers alike all playing it and enjoying it. Which gets to the heart of why separate people into performers and audience, or players and punters, etc.? I prefer to think of everyone in the pub as participants. Just one big happy party. That's the spirit of sessions that you pick up from older generations of players.
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Hey Will, you just summed it up. Where we are, it's only the rare occasion we get some old boys in. When they're in, yes, we fecking play for them. But when it's the usual - the students, the bankers, the local communist party ffs (raises fist in air in solidarity and clutches satchel in lieu of security blanket... maybe even pulls the beret out of the inside duffelcoat pocket...) - sorry got distracted there.... but when the normal clientele is just that, then that's when it's feck 'em and enjoy the tunes. When the audience is 'actually' a real and informed audience, then of course we play for them.
I'm not sure how I got all that from your last, but I probably needed to say it.
Take care all
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by mutatis mutandis
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Heh, when we've had some old boys in at our pub, they almost always join in, pulling a whistle out of their pocket, or singing a song, dancing a step or two, or just telling a joke.
It's all good.
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Yeah, the songs come out, right enough
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by mutatis mutandis
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I've never felt anything but incredibly welcomed at the Plough in the times I've visited San Francisco, and I never have had any sense that it was being conducted as a performance, it just seemed like every other good session I'd attended, with a mix of skill levels and clear demonstration of respect for everyone present. Every time I've been there, Jack has actively encouraged everyone in attendance to start a set at some point during the evening. Just putting it out there as an independent observer and visitor to Jack's session a couple of times a year over the past 10 years.
When I play in a sesssion, I really don't care if there is anyone else in the pub, or if there is, if they are enjoying or not enjoying the music. That's not why I'm there, I'm there to enjoy the music with my friends and fellow musicians. If other people enjoy the music, that's great, but its not where I have my attention. Once the attention shifts to providing entertainment to the listeners, rather than playing for the enjoyment of the players, that's not a session anymore, that's a performance, and it changes everything, generally for the worse, musically. At least that's my story and I'm sticking to it.
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Michael Eskin
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
I'm glad to hear that, Michael. And I've heard good things about your sessions in So Cal, too.
I just think we should hope for that same "clear demonstration of respect" in this forum, too.
Totally agree with your second paragraph, as well.
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Having just returned from a two week trip around California attending every session I could get to, 11 in total, (I couldn't get to SFO this trip...
), one thing is for sure, every session was different. Some were about consensus. Some were a showcase for a band, with trad sets between band sets, some were absolute beginners with one tune played at time, some were powerhouse players where I was bathed in amazing music and thrilled to be a participant. Some were in major cities, some were in rural areas 200 miles from any other session. For y'all to be arguing about what a session is or isn't just seems like a waste of bandwidth. The reality is that sessions in the USA are what those who regularly show up decide what they will be, based on their musical tastes and talent. The best thing all of us can do is walk into a session with an attitude of cheerful mindfulness and respect. When I played in a few sessions on my trip that were clearly absolute beginners, I made sure that when playing sets, I'd try to pick tunes that at least one of the players knew, but I was still clearly at "their" session, and because I was sensitive to their needs and empowered what they were good at, we all had a great time.
I agree with Jack, anyone can come play in our San Diego sessions who isn't disruptive, but that implies a value judgment about the term "disruptive", which clearly from the discussions on thesession.org is open to interpretation.
If I walk into someone else's session and talk about or try to impose my standards about tuning, number/quality of backup players, etc., no matter how "right" I might be, I'm the disruptive one for not respecting the local practices. Its their party, its their rules, I'm the outsider and my responsibility as a visitor is to make them right, not impose my beliefs.
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Michael Eskin
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Michael, I agree. Where some people differ perhaps is in looking for some reciprocity. Yes, visitors should not "disrupt" the local session, and should respect local practices. But would it be wrong for the locals to also welcome a little outside flavor from a visitor? Obviously, that's up to each session. In my experience, most local sessions are very welcoming of visitors--and of the visitor's repertoire (enjoying hearing an unfamiliar tune, say), and style, and whatever crack and music the visitor can bring.
Most sessions do reciprocate in this way. A very few seem to prefer repeating the same experience every week, and they are less tolerant of change, of the unfamiliar, sometimes of "sharing the spotlight." Experienced players can usually blend in to such a session, though they may choose not to bother. Less experienced players, or people with an impaired sense of discretion, may make a botch of it. So it goes.
Clueless people aren't an affliction just of Irish sessions. In bluegrass circles, they call them "dancing bears" because of the havoc they can create. I suppose some sessions see more than their share of such interlopers. But in the OP, it sounds as though even respectful, sensitive musicians were given the cold shoulder. What's the point in that?
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
That's a closed session, why do the even bother allowing outsiders to join in? I have no problems with closed sessions, as long as it's clear what the situation is to everyone involved. If it is misrepresented, they should fix the communication. Still, ultimately, their party, their rules... Nothing says that you have to be nice and accepting to visitors. While that's not my policy, and I don't think it's one that sustains a scene, I can appreciate that it is a perfectly valid way to run a session where the focus is very narrow and the players are uncomfortable outside of their controlled environment. I've been to few of these, open sessions that were really closed, with bad attitudes towards visitors. The regulars with the bad attitude weren't particularly good players and radiated general disdain for the visitors. It's always a very odd experience attending such a session, I wonder, what the h*ll happened in past to cause such unpleasantness...
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Michael Eskin
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Miss L:
>ramblingpitchfork, when visiting a session, your safest bet is to listen and watch to suss out what sort of session it is and consider (1) whether or not you can contribute (rather than detract) from the tunes and crack the locals are having, and (2) whether it's the sort of session you really *want* to sit in on. Every session is different, even the same local session from one week to the next. <
.
>And I would never set up a new session based only on my own sense of what a session should be. It's best a group decision, let to evolve to some sort of consensus, at least among the players who will show up every week and carry the tunes and crack<
Yeah I agree with all that, and with what Michael E said in his posts above too.
- chris
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
"No man is an island" (John Donne)
"I am a rock
I am an island." (Paul Simon)
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by domnull
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Ireland is an island - so once I've got rid of those snakes, they won't be able to come back - St. Patrick
# Posted on November 27th 2009 by Mix O'Lydian
Re: When is a session not a session ? ...ongoing discussion.....
Very interesting discussion. Was this what you were hoping for, Guernsey Pete?
# Posted on November 30th 2009 by Fiddlephilia