Is trad music becoming too academic?
For some people, yes.
Are musicians with degrees in trad music better trad musicians?
Better than what/who? Better than people without degrees or better than they themselves would have been if they hadn't done the degree? I'm pretty sure the degree in itself would not make you a better player. But you might have put more hours in if you had the excuse that you were studying it formally. But then again, more hours doesn't necessarily make you a better player.
Do we have a "class society" emerging within trad?
Definitely not. There's no way someone with a degree would not sit and play with someone without one. And vice versa. It simply wouldn't come into it.
Will those with degrees quietly believe themselves superior musicians?
Maybe some will, the t w a t s. But there's also probably people without degrees who'll think themselves better players for that.
I'm all for non-vocational education. It's the mark of a civilised society. If anything, I'm jealous. I'd love to be able to afford to swan arround for a few yours doing nothing that's gonna help me pay the bills.
Lads..lads.. think about it.....when was the last time that any of you sat and played Egan's Polka or The Rakes of Mallow with Dr O'Súilleabháin or Dr Gavin for that matter?
Well I have not noticed a snobbishness amongst the students on the degree course in Glasgow although I doubt they are any more immune than anyone else from being snobby or developing an ego. It is true that they are all excellent musicians, as you would expect, but there are others who have not done the course who are just as good.
I think it is fair to say that a lot of the younger musicians who have the necessary level of talent are drawn to the idea of a degree in traditional music and it is also fair to say that the course provides them with a great opportunity to learn from some of the best musicians and improve themselves as a result. It can also give them a new way to think about the music and broaden their outlook, although not everyone probably sees that as a good thing.
As I said above though it does not necessarily follow that those with a degree would be better musicians than those without. There is no accounting for natural talent.
Good points lads. I'm wondering if in, say, 100 years time, academia will make playing in a session more inaccessible in some way or other. If we jump forward 100 years will the music be over complicated, self-indulgent and maybe poles apart from the music we play today, with influences of other world music now having such an enormous impact.
I disagree. I think an element of the class system sligeach suggested is creeping into the music. I've played at sessions, not just here but in assorted other cities with unis that have folk music degree programs, and found noticeable divisions and tension between students and local trad players. It's actually not that bad in Glasgow -- divisions are there but at least to me, they're not as fraught with bitchiness as they have been in other places. If I had a pound for every time I've gone into a session, been asked if I was on the course, and then, after answering "no," totally ignored for the rest if the night, I'd be able to afford regulators no bother. Yes, degree programs breed classism and snobbery, even though the students might be some of the nicest people in the world. It's the culture of the institution meets standard 18-22 year old insecurity.
I think it would be fair to say that the majority of musicians who are deified on these pages had no formal education whatsoever and by the sound of them, all the better for it.
Some sessions are probably already like that but if that is what the people going to them want then fair enough. There will always be other sessions out there. Besides those on the traditional music courses are still there because they love traditional music, whether that be Scottish, Irish or English. I can't see that changing just because they also like some Scandinavian music.
Impossible to say what the music will sound like in 100 years other that it will for certain be different. Though I don't see how it could possibly get more self indulgent than it is today.
Sure the modern traditional Irish music of 100 years from now will be influenced by other world musics, not least because it always has been. But I suspect that that music, whatever it might be, will be the mainstay of the non academic players. It's more likely that the academics will be playing and studying historical Irish music - the music we play now.
"Don't you just love those ancient Liz Carroll tunes? Astonishing how they've lasted over a 100 years. Giz a blast o' that ol' Lost in the Loop again on yer sunflower powered theramin"
Sounds like abit of ANTI-snobbery creeping in. Or just inferiority complex against academically qualified people.
Actually, if you ask me, if you have a degree and/or are a musician it shows you have the wherewithall to rise above the masses academically and/or musically, displaying aptitude to bed down to a good bit slog learning your subject and/or your instrument. If are able to apply yourself to study you are more likely to be able to apply yourself to learning an instrument. What's so bad about that?
The vast majority of musicians 100 years ago didn't travel the distances people travel today: the world is much smaller. They weren't exposed to the different music that we're exposed to today: we have recordings; television; internet etc. So I think that up until now the music would have changed at a really slow pace. I know of musicians who would have travelled 30/ 40 miles when they heard s.o had a new tune in order to learn it, and on a bicycle.
Silver, I have also witnessed younger musicians behaving like this. I'v also met some who believe that the more complicated the tune is the better it is!
Dodger's right (I think?). It's important to respect that the music is a luxury we afford ourselves the time to enjoy. That is where it was born and that is where it's heart should remain. If I have anything at all against the academic study of it, it would be that, by definition, it takes that away.
Claire Sweeney
The beauty of our tradition is that it has been handed down by hand: o Ghluin go gluin.
Maybe future trad musos won't be able to learn anything by ear!
Claire, for your information I have degrees, more than one, working on another, but not in music. It hardly means I have the "wherewithall to rise above the masses" (huh?) and probably means I don't have the wherewithall to get a real job.
I agree with Michael's last post.
Any "anti-snobbery" feelings I might have come from too many experiences of putting up with folk who won't give you the time of day because they have a folk music degree and you don't. In any case, are you "pro-snobbery?"
"If are able to apply yourself to study you are more likely to be able to apply yourself to learning an instrument"
hmm - I'm not sure it works that way Claire. I, for one, pick up instruments and learn to play them purely for pleasure. (Now if I come on a hard bit I will put a bit of effort into it, to make a tune sound good - but if I find that I really can't play that tune then I'll find one I can play.) I play the music to get away from slogging. Slogging is what I do for a living.
As for rising above the masses I wholeheartedly echo what Llig says. This is the music of the masses, and if you rise above them you will leave it behind.
Claire Sweeney
I might be stating the obvious here but anyone who plays music is obviously highly intelligent otherwise how could they do what they do. Learning an instrument is largely determined by the sheer determination of the individual, surely.
I know a lot of people who are amazing musicians but didn't even finish their undergraduate degree and I know people with PhDs who can't play a note. You theory doesn't fly, Claire.
Lig
No-body mentioned the calibre of musicianship.I didn' say they wrere good classical musicians. In trad music I welcome the fact that you don't have to be a good musician to join in and play and learn.
The 'exclusive' attitude Silver Spear commented on may be simply what you get if a bunch of mainly young people are given the opportunity to study and play (in all senses of the word) together for a couple of years. They develop a way of communicating with each other based on their common experience. Add to that a bit of youthful impatience and they may well come over as elitist when they do things, especially as a group, with people outside the group.
There have been some posts here recently where academic language has been rather conspicuous. Can't blame people for not turning it off if they are enthusiastic.
More relevant is what people are they like 5 or 10 years later, when they spend more time spread out in the real world to earn a living.
"I'm all for non-vocational education. It's the mark of a civilised society. If anything, I'm jealous. I'd love to be able to afford to swan arround for a few yours doing nothing that's gonna help me pay the bills."
said Michael, and I quite agree.
I just hope those on the degree courses aren't being led (or leading themselves) up the garden path believing they'll be able to make a decent living at it!
claire, what exactly do you mean by rise above the masses? disgusting comment and you should withdraw it. It's elitist opinions like yours that truly tarnish the tradition. Wise up.
Function: adjective
Date: 1588
1 a : of, relating to, or associated with an academy or school especially of higher learning b : of or relating to performance in academic courses <academic excellence> c : very learned but inexperienced in practical matters <academic thinkers> d : based on formal study especially at an institution of higher learning
2 : of or relating to literary or artistic rather than technical or professional studies
3 a : theoretical, speculative <an academic question> b : having no practical or useful significance
4 : conforming to the traditions or rules of a school (as of literature or art) or an official academy : conventional <academic painting>
Wow, y'all missed my irony there. I used the word "even" in a sarcastic "shock, horror, people can play really good music without a degree!" sort of way, responding to the tone of Claire's post. I'm usually better at getting sarcasm across on message boards. Oh well, we all have our daft-sounding moments.
My wife's sister and her husband are both brilliant educated musicians, yet they cannot sit down and play along in a session without sheet music. While I think it's great that they are educated musicians, I find that something is missing....basically a "feel" for the music.
Are some people "too" academic? Yes, so what, they'll learn in good time. There's room for everyone. There seems to be plenty who stay with the heart of ITM. Others learn from them. Think I'll go play my tunes.
darxxx
That's probably it. You can hear the difference ( and see) when a musician is playing with a good "feel" for the music and when they are going through the mechanics of it.
Ya can either play the music or ya can't the same as ya can either drive an F1 car fast or ya can't. Good tutoring helps players reach their full potential but natural ability can't be bought or learned. Simple as that. Is it too academic? I think its great that people have a chance to study ITM as a recognized degree and shows that it has come a long way and is treated as a full art form which can be studied and understood deeply. I'd hope anyone who does a degree in it is humbled by it. Some choose to learn all the theory and history about tunes and different players and styles. Whereas others just want to play. Its good to know as much as possible as it celebrates a national treasure. But just don't expect to be the best musician because of a degree. if i did a degree in F1 driving i'd know all the history and be able to talk about everything, but i'd still be slow out of the bends!! As for snobbery who cares? Some people are tossers and some aren't
No Cause
I sussed already that you are doing some sort of degree in trad.
Fergal
I would say you haven't played in too many sessions thus your naivity.
Anyway, I'm not bothered by the fact that there are degrees in folk music out there that one can do. You can degrees in sh*t that's weirder and more esoteric than that. What bugs me, just based on my observations of what people seem to bring with them to sessions from their course, is the attitude. You go to some sessions and it is more like a performance -- lets see how fast, how syncopated, and in how many weird keys we can play all these tunes.
its basically gutted what it was the old guys were actually doing
I had lessons from an old bebop piano player before I went to study at the university. Stan taught how to use triads to imply 2 keys at once. All the extentions and upper harmonies were comming from his superimposing another key on the key we were playing
at the university, they taught 9th, 11th, and 13th chords and to memorize patterns that fit over certain chord changes
basically "lick" oriented playing
while that is one way to train your basic college student to play soemthing that sounds like jazz, its not what the guys were doing
now what they were doing is gone and is replaced by an easier system that could be taught to the average college student
The people you spoke of may have gone to loads of schools and had famous teachers, but if they're useless by ear they've not been educated in the slightest. It's not their fault, it lies in their teachers. No matter what the genre, the ear leads the way. The printed page but reminds.
Good comment on jazz. Jazz was a cultural music once upon a time, something one learned only by playing in or frequenting the seedy backdrop from whence it came. And I'm not saying that with any disrespect whatsoever. Real jazz didn't rely on dots, in fact it broke free of the dots. The dots could not contain the music, nor should it with ITM. I admit to using the dots sometimes, but not primarily, and I'm trying to find that place where I don't rely on them at all.
Truly astounding that folks have money and time enough to get a degree in something that will never pay the rent, or contribute to their own survival in our great (gag) Western Capitalist system.
However, as Llig points out, it is one of the hallmarks of civilization, having wealth and leisure time enough to get a college degree in a ‘folk’ music.
I remember Sean Keane of The Chieftains in ‘Water from the Well’ laughing at the memory of how upset his father was that Sean was going to go play music for a living and not have a proper job. The elder Keanes played fiddle in the home and worked their whole lives to raise their children.
I’m amused to think of what Sean’s house-painting and fiddle-playing father would think of it all.
Nate, that’s consistent with my observations, but I’ve never been deeply involved. From my limited point of view, it seemed that from the 1920’s into the 50’s or 60’s, jazz was living and breathing, but most of what I’ve heard since then seems less like playing jazz and more like a discussion about jazz or a deconstruction of it. Or just pure self-indulgence. I don’t know if that makes any sense.
University towns have pubs. Pubs have sessions. The combination might not help your GPA, though that argument is purely academic.
I was doing what I always do ~ searching through prior discussions on the matter. Found this;
Irish World Academy of Music and Dance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NNNhirgc44
Is trad music becoming too academic? Not nearly as academic as this debate. Once again, I see this boiling down to the simple concept that some folks are cliquish jerks and some people are quite amiable by nature. Book learnin' and PhD's has nothing to do with it.
That's because in the 50's and 60's, jazz became populated by the beat generation, which in itself was not a bad thing, but that was when jazz entered intellectual circles, which was the doorway to the college campus, which spelled the end of real jazz.
Ranom
They certainly know how to sell it - looks and sounds the business. But only serves to reinforce my concern that an elitist attitude will eventually come about ( and it's already started) within trad because of these "degrees" and I think that, long term, this will have a detrimental effect on our musical tradition.
Here's a bit more from the thread I mentioned. The link starts with one of our members whom I really miss around these parts;
Re: Third Level Trad Courses: Do they have any discernable affect on the genre?
April 29th 2008 by shoddy fiddle player http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17592/comments#comment366004
As SS said I am not on a traditional music course and neither am I at University any more, although when I was I studied history and not music.
Having said that I do have lots of friends who either are, or have been on traditional music courses and, for them, it seems a great opportunity to study further what they have already invested a large proportion of their life on. To be honest the vast majority of them will already be highly talented on their chosen instrument(s) before they ever get anywhere near University. Fair play to them. You only get out of this music what you put into it and they have invested a lot. That is why they are good.
I would have loved to have had the opportunity to study traditional music at University but I was not playing the music back then and I am still not good enough to do it now, even if I was so inclined to return to Uni.
As far as I am concerned the question being asked is the wrong one. It shouldn't be a question of whether these courses are creating musical snobs it should be a question of why shouldn't this music offer the opportunity of University accreditation in the same way as almost anything else.
As has already been said it is not a chosen avenue of study that makes someone a snob or elitist and to be honest those with little musical ability can be just as snobby.
Bob, I've always thought of jazz as like a dead language. my style is basically stuck in 1955, and that's the way I like it
I think the reason you see jazz in university programs is because of economics: jazz lets you offer music degrees to people who don't play orchestral instruments - namely guitar players who just want to lay around all day and not study calculus
also jazz got accepted as being an intellectual musical form. Most of the time popular or folk music was left out of the conservatory
the idea that jazz was one thing that America gave the world culturally helped get jazz education accepted as a legitimate academic field, too
There were some guys in the 70s that really worked hard to produce top notch teaching methods to get jazz education into the university systems. These were guys like Jerry Coker at Indiana, Jamie Abersold and his national summer workshops, Jack Petersen at Berkley and then at NTSU, and people like that.
That there was a movement to create a teaching method for improvisation is what brought jazz into university degree programs in the 1970s
Random
Interesting. But gives the impression that the students will all find work within the music industry as a result of having a degree.
To paraphrase the Wounded Hussar (further down the thread), the dangers are, "turning a community music into a stream of revenue: employing people and selling services that they once did for free and that were part of the fabric of our musical tradition. More than just the music can be affected: maybe in the future these musicians will only teach if there is a monetary reward;maybe they won't do sessions unless money is involved.
sligeach
I am interested in how they exhibit this elitist attitude that you recognize.
The people I have met with trad music degrees or ethnomusicoligists are interested in learning about how I came to the music, how I play, what I listen to, etc... In short, they are engaging and inclusive. I have met some pretty snobby folks who always seem to know the right way to play something and are happy to let you know if you're not doing it the right way. But that has nothing at all to do with having a trad music degree.
"Congratulations graduate! We have several options for you! There's a lovely corner for busking over there. Also, this pub is looking for trad on Thursdays. Go out there and get 'em, Tiger!"
Damn right I'm jealous! Where's my Planxty? I want to sit around on my duff playing tunes too! Give me a damn degree! I'll give you the third! I'll settle for Celsius!
I don't think the trend has anything to do with "class" per se, but I DO think it has everything to do with professionalizing anything at hand that can be.
This is a trend in our society and in academia.
Remember when kids' soccer/football was just a kick around the lot? Now it's professionalized with jerseys, coaching, shoes and teams and away games...the whole lot. And sometimes pro or semi pro coaches as well.
Same for baseball.
Remember when writing novels and especially poetry was something one "just did" -- much like playing irish traditional music. Now academe has coopted it and has made it a profession with workshops, master classes, creative writing degrees -- you name it. The whole lot.
And who can blame them? It started with university's sensing people would PAY to learn from "name" writers...Robert Frost was one of the first to offer writing classes I believe.
It meant that you no longer had to be a banker full time like T.S. Eliot and write The Wasteland on the side. You could be paid to do your hobby and long as you commuted the secrets of the craft to eager young minds.
Same for Irish trad i suspect. It's a money making venture but also a *validating* venture..
We love official stamps of approval certifying our talent and knowledge of the lore of things.
To a certain extent, I think most music training at regular universities serves about the same purpose as an English Literature Degree does. It provides a skill set that is not particularly useful (in a direct sense) for making a living, but which allows the degree seeker to engage their passion for 4 years and to come out of the experience with a College Degree. I do think you probably pick up useful skills in the process, but they are a side benefit.
Of course, ultimately, we are in a world where many H.R. managers are more interested in whether you have a degree (Any degree) than whether you have the skills needed to do the job.
I think some of you are missing the point. I don't mean to offend anyone here, but I'm wondering is it because you don't live here and maybe don't quite fully grasp that a way of life that has existed for centuries in this country is undergoing a change that will change it forever ( just as with jazz). There is more to it than just the musical notes. Our tradition ( our Oral tradition) is in danger of gradually disappearing and being replaced by an "intellectual musical form".
sligheach...
another thought....what could Ireland or even Irish musicians do to mitigate this? is it Ireland's fault or shall we blame it on River Dance?
yeah. sigh. but there is one thing that isn't so commodifiable I think and that would be one's own deep seated reasons for loving and enjoying the music. Keep that close and safe and ultimately it doesn't matter who dreams of marketing schemes or trades on Irish culture. It's the people who come together out of a great liking for whatever this music brings them or the place it takes them too...great players and not so great alike.
No one will ever be able to bottle that. That's something you suddenly find after many years when all the reasons you *thought* you started playing for drop away and you're just sort of left in awe at why you actually might be.
Between a pub session and Riverdance is a load of music making (and dance and drama) that has quite a complicated mix of amateur, commercial and institutional involvement. To call it "commodified" is unfair
In the UK a lot of things that happen - a gig in a village hall by a trad band on tour, an amatuer group making some sort of music, a traditional dance classes etc rely on volunteers, commercial concerns, not-for profit organisations and usually government funding for the arts. Its the world in which many of these graduates work. Bits of paper or commercial skills are good when applying for funding and making whatever it is work.
It doesn't stop people going to the pub to play tunes.
My experience with this concerns the spill over effect whereby young touring musicians over here flog themselves as graduates of these courses first. This then becomes the standard by which festival organisers flog musical talent to the ticket buying public. Such-and-such young band are all graduates of "pick your course". Local immigrant musicians steeped in tradition can't get a look in because they don't have these qualifications. When these festivals are combined with teaching modules the problem is compounded because many of these singers and players although successful graduates have a tenuous connection with any tradition and have limited skills as performers and interpreters of traditional music, the singing particularly can be quite dire, and they're teaching the new generation. I can't comment what it's like Stateside but certainly here in Ontario and more widely in Canada it is becoming an issue but most people don't realise that it is so because they don't know any better. This doesn't apply to all graduates, of course, but it certainly applies to many, many products of these courses that I've experienced over here in the last few years.
As some one who last had any academic music lesons aged 14 some XXX years ago ( sorry problem with the printer )
I think that from what I have seen the academic input is only locally abundant , close to cities that have ethnomusic or folk music degrees.
So no I dont think so because soon most of the students realise that there is no money in it and they will have to get a real job like the rest of us and who reads their research anyway ?
Wow Pat I would like to see someone trying that round here.
We would all laugh .
Very few of the graduates make it as a proffesional musician round here.. How many finish the course ?
Where do they all go ?
@ sligeach,
Your last point raises an issue that has been discussed previously here and that is the place of traditional music within the wider context of Irish culture and society. Many practitioners here could name every Clare concertina player within a ten mile radius of Milltown Malbay but have no concept of Hurling or football or that Ireland lost to France this week or dodging customs to get back for a family funeral or having the last singing session on the lash as 5 of your best mates from school head off to Australia because there's no work at home. I can't take the music out of the context that I know but it seems to me that many of these courses do exactly that.
sligeach, it'd be great if you could expand on the statement "Our tradition ( our Oral tradition) is in danger of gradually disappearing and being replaced by an "intellectual musical form"" as it's at variance with my experience.
Similarly, Patkiwi, some detail would be great as my experience of the BA and MA courses at UL, which I know well, place the music very much within Irish culture.
I'd have thought that all of us play "conforming to the rules and conventions of a school" - to quote one definition of "academic" given somewhere above - if we're out to play ITM properly. The "school" (of Irish music in toto) definitely has its expected ways of doing things and its no-nos: but these are to a great extent dictated by the very nature of the music and its instruments, and are not just arbitrary limits on free expression. Also, they are elastic.
My fear for some of the people who graduate from folk and indeed other music, art, or media-orientated courses is this: that they'll get co-opted as part of a cheer-leading corps by a political and cultural establishment that is actually anti-culture but wants to use culture for economic and political profit while it sets about entrenching its power and brainwashing the populace into acquiescence. I have more than a suspicion this is actually going on in the UK.
Can a guy with academic credentials get into this discussion?
What academe does is study things. They attempt to fit what they study into some broader field of knowledge. So, one might study ITM to see how it fits into European traditional music in general. Good academics understand and respect whatever they study. Bad ones overgeneralize and make truly stupid conclusions.
One of my favorite stupid conclusions was one drawn from a study of some old recordings of Appalachian fiddle tunes. Some academics decided that it was clear from those recordings that the guitar was seen only as a rhythm instrument and that a single chord was usually played through the entire tune. What really happened is that the recording company brought in a guitarist that didn't know the tunes. So, he just clunked away on the basic chord (sound like some sessions you've been to?)
In sum good academics try to respect their subject matter, not alter it. Bad ones force truly bad knowledge on their students. A problem comes when there is a sudden demand to study some kind of music. Colleges seldom have the right person available to teach the subject (for lots of reasons some of which are discussed above), so folks try to use materials developed by some other academic. The result is usually pretty watered down, and often gives false notions about whatever is being taught.
My conclusion: academic study is useful, but no be all and end all. I'm not a good an ITM as many of the folks posting out here. My academic training didn't help me get the kinds of executent skills and "improvisitory" skills needed. On the other hand, that academic training does make me able to figure out what the good players are doing. But of course I could have gotten that same knowledge by going to more sessions and probably been a better player too.
So...academic training can be a blessing or curse. One can't generalize about academics any more than about trad players. Probably more academic study will bring some bad players into the world, but it won't shut down the business of getting together to play. Academy could never do that.
@P J Doherty,
My original post was not specifically about any one program (UL in your case I assume) but rather about the propensity for employers here (Canada) to hire graduates of these courses. Lots of people get hired for concert series, festival performance work and teaching during the summer months here, many of them are graduates of these courses. I stated that quite clearly in my first sentence I thought. Regardless, I have had the opportunity to meet many such graduates over the years in this context and have been quite surprised at how little they understand the wider picture which is what I was alluding to in my response to sligeach. I know many of the teachers personally at UL (I recently found an old photo of myself and Niall Keegan busking up Shop Street in Galway way too long ago) so I know they have the bona fides and the experience but graduates that I have met who have gone through UL for example (and I mean specifically here non nationals) do not have a grasp of the wider culture which leads me to assume that it is taken out of context. It is after all a music programme, not a sociology module. Now, I have never attended UL and probably never will so I do stand to be corrected.
PJ
Unlike yourself I have never learned a tune from manuscript. I don't read music but that's not a problem as far as I'm concerned. I learned fiddle from my father, who learned it from his father and proceeded to teach myself the old gi-tar. My kids have learned from me as have some of their friends. I grew up playing in sessions and learned my craft there. Learned tunes from other musicians who learned them from the generation before them. That's my culture, my experience - Beal-oideas ( I am assuming you know what this is). So, tell me,PJ, can your university bottle this and teach it in their courses that are so well "placed" within Irish culture.
cboody, I agree this thread is falling into generalities. We cross-posted. I was referring to the British National Party's [Manifesto] stated policy of compulsory studies of indigenous/folk arts & music. I assumed nicholas was bringing up something along those lines.
Took me a minute to get this typed. I was not implying anything about anyone on this thread. More generalizations. Agreed, it doesn't help the discussion.
Drum-beat of the BNP? Not from me, mate! I was on against things I see being done or promoted by the quangocracy, and the BNP may be have a similar or greater antipathy to these. But I'm not one of them.
sligeach, I'm not certain why you felt the need to to observe "Unlike yourself I have never learned a tune from manuscript". Does that somehow give your opinions more authority? If you've never used manuscript or tab your missing a useful tool that cuts you off from some fine sources of tunes. Or do you think it somehoe makes you more authentic? So you learnt from your father who learnt from his, and I learnt from my parents who learnt from their parents who learnt from theirs. Does that make me more authentically trad than you now? Enough with the p*ssing contest.
As you're know doubt aware there are thousands for trad musicians in Irish communities across the world, myself and it would seem yourself, who continue to teach trad face to face, hand to ear to hand. Almost certainly more than at anytime in history. Only a tiny percentage of young trad musicians go on to take ethnomusicology or performance practice at third level institutions. So I remain curious as to how ""Our tradition ( our Oral tradition) is in danger of gradually disappearing and being replaced by an "intellectual musical form."". For a start what do you mean by an "intellectual musical form"? Are you trying to suggest that this small number of graduates are going to transform trad into some form of high art practiced only by a few? Nonsense. I'm really not trying to pick a fight with you but genuinely curious to understand the point you're trying to make.
The majority of students attending such third level courses have been playing trad for ten years plus. Most of them having had tunes passed on to them by their family and teachers in the way you described so of course they're "well "placed" within Irish culture.".
I'm not quite sure what throwing in loosely related Gaeilge adds to your post particularly given the lack of syntax. Certainly in Munster the term is confined to storytelling and lore rather than the the aural transmission of music.
Patkiwi, now that you've introduced the "non-nationals" qualification your observation undoubtedly has more substance. Now naturally all I can speak to is personal experience but those non-national graduates from UL that I've met, perhaps half a dozen, have almost invariably been more Irish than the Irish, living and playing in the very community that they're studying.
In fairness to sligeach there PJ the term has a wider meaning in Connaught. Also PJ my overall observations are not based on graduates of Irish institutions specifically but rather graduates of similar institutions generally which include Scotland and England . It is interesting to note that entry requirements at UL for some courses do not require previous academic qualifications and will recognise life experience as a factor which is to it's credit. If a Martian tuned into RTE it could be forgiven in thinking that traditional music is dominated by intellectuals, qualified or not, the vast majority of practitioners play away at home with little or no regard for the ivory tower.
PJ
I meant exactly what I said - "Unlike yourself...."
I read your blog. You have stipulated that you have learned tunes from manuscript.
You quite obviously are missing the point. But then as an academic you're going to see it the way you do. And you're going to tell me that because I'm not an academic I'm going to see the way I do - I've saved you the bother. Let the academics study trad music, decipher it ' examine it, blah blah blah.. Let the traditional musicians get on with the business of playing it .
And if you don' t mind, no Gaeige was used "loosely" on my part.
"more Irish than the Irish" I'm amused.
sligeach, If I'm "quite obviously missing the point", then what is the point? Please, I'm genuinely curious to know. You make strong claims: "Our tradition ( our Oral tradition) is in danger of gradually disappearing and being replaced by an "intellectual musical form." but aren't interested in dialogue. If it's merely a strongly held feeling that you can't put into anymore words that at least say that.
And what does "I meant exactly what I said - "Unlike yourself....""actually mean? What was the relevance of extracing something from my bio? Really, I'm genuinely curious. What point were you trying to make, other than I can read music and you can't. So what? The vast majority of trad musicians I've met over the years can read music and I'm pretty certain I've never met a music who hasn't used tab in some form. If you haven't then good for you, and no I'm not being sarcastic.
"But then as an academic you're going to see it the way you do.". What's your basis for describing me as an academic? For what it's worth I'm not. And why do I care whether your an academic or not, it's of no consequence. I'm not trying to disprove or dismiss your claims only genuinely interested in the reasons behind them given that most trad musicians would say that trad is healthier now than it's ever been.
Interestingly enough, my wife, a native speaker from Inis Mór, assures me that only an academic would use the term Béaloideas to refer to the aural transmission of music. So two native speakers in two different dialects feel you've used the wrong term. Now clearly I know what you were trying to say but again you seem much more interested in posing and throwing up smokescreens, than engaging in dialogue.
"I thought the other guy was being nasty". If you've formed that impression then I apologise though I struggle to identify the nasty bits. No, I'm interested in your reasoning, not to prove you wrong (not that there are any absolute rights and wrongs on this topic), nor to belittle you, but to understand. (OK, I accept I've picked holes in your Irish, but you were asking for it! Sorry.).
Actual point being discussed, perhaps you know something I don't, perhaps you've seen something I haven't. I'm passionate about the music and interested in anyone's opinion that might make my understanding all the richer.
PJ
Your responses are taking too long. Can't be waiting for you to confer with your wife every time you're going to respond - I' d be here all night. I think I've made my position quite clear and my reasons for that position are clear too. Ar scor ar bith, ta me scriosta anois - ach ta me ag deaneamh go rachaidh me amach chuig seisiun anois. And in case your wife isn't aware of this, ag deanamh, is Ulster Irish and in this way means thinking. And I am aware there no fadas ( none on this compt.)
..and trucks he's your brother! cause he's "a fighting man"
Chavez.
No need to be derogatory , and you mis represent the context in which that was said. Quite the opposite of being an aggressive statement, or bigging myself up , I was purley being enthusiastic about two seperate things Boxin and choons. im also a happy man and wont hold it against ya. I spend enuf time knockin round Ballymun to know Dubs are prone to bigging themselves up so I can see how ye might have misconstrued what was said in any case. Also some fine muscians have been real fighting men, not just of the tongue and the cheek like myself Gormans, Fureys, Dorans, Keenans. ye have to let people express what they find enjoyment and inspiration in, I suspect it is the Dub in ye automatically tryin to measure yourself up, when infact theres no need..
Interesting discussion. Thers worse ways of spending 4 years than studying trad, granted it doesnt need validation in this sense but sure isnt it great the tradition is strong enough for there to be uptake in the first place. I was going to do that HND in Ballyfermot in trad performance but ended up working on the Belfast Pilot Boat for a year instead. Keeper lit
but sure if it wasnt for manuscript would alot of the tunes not have been lost? dont read music myself, can just about decipher it but does the process of compiling O Neills Music of Ireland qualify as acedemic? Surley to a degree it does and along with the other collections have meant tunes stand the test of time. Dont know if this is relavant because O Neill was a peeler and not an acedemic in the technical sense.
......but to get back to the original question.........
......I heard a young Finnish musician at a folk festival a year or three ago; she introduced herself by explaining she had studied under so-and-so at such-and-such, and then gone on to read at another academic institution for her postgraduate studies, and, whilst I thought this all seemed a strange way to go about it, a Finnish friend explained that this would be the standard way they would expect to present themselves in Finland, to demonstrate their credentials.
Oh, and she was an amazing player too.
I suppose that one way one could use these degrees, in the British Isles ( I use that expression in its widest terms ) is merely to demonstrate that one has a suitable, and studious, and intelligent, mind, and would therefore be worthy of being given a job, say, in the Civil Service. Wasn't that what a good degree was for ? After all, a degree is not a label that pins you down to working in one narrow field, is it ?
Music is never really complicated, it just might not do what you expect it to, but it always exists in it's own right as an expression of what it is. It's very musical nature cannot be complicated. It is pure. If you can't reproduce it on a musical instrument, it's because you don't understand it. If you wrote it, and you tried to make it complicated, maybe it's not music. If you were able to express music perfectly from where it came from the depths of you, it may look very complicated on paper, and unreproduceable, but to the listener it would make perfect sense. I sometimes think a tune is hard because it would go places that were unfamiliar to me, but after being there enough times, I realize the tune was never really hard. It was always there all along in its sweet simplicity.
This is in reference to a comment that folks think a tune being more complicated is better
Yeah Earl I like that too, and I like what Llig had to say early on.
Had to miss much of the discussion because I was off playing trumpet in a college jazz ensemble (I'm way to old, but hey its fun!) . But somehow I think that fits in here. The group is directed by a guy that makes his main living playing jazz. He knows repertoire. He knows about improv in a variety of ways and styles. He sees to it that his students get exposure to the broad spectrum of types of jazz for big and small ensembles. A person going through that class gets useful help in becoming a good jazz player. I can not think of a way that teacher and that training would not be positive. I've played with other groups where the teacher's background was not so solid, and that certainly could be bad for folks.
Seems to me the same is true of teaching about ITM. I'd certainly hate to see anyone force that training (even from good teachers) on anyone. But if it is not forced and the instructor is truly qualified (not necessarily academically qualified) then why not. OTOH if someone is forcing academic stuff...well sligeach has every reason to be concerned.
NO time to read the discussion before staring work but...
PB:
>Come on Lads, light the torches, grab your pitchforks, let's >march to the university and tear them down... burn the dots... >hang the professors!
Pitchfork available for grabbing (non smoker, no sense of propriety, numerous careless prior owners). PO Box 5464
I realise this was a bit of a side issue, but it's a long time since I've read bigger bollux than the above. Yeah keep the poor illiterate and unread.
Of course I realise context is everything and twas probably shouted in jest. But nothing worse than the poor celebrating keeping themselves in their place.
Sorry thread is too long to read so I may just be stating someone elses opinion. However, like Rufus my own view is that trad is first and foremost for playing and enjoyment. Having said that I don't think we can get too many resources thrown at it whether it be Level 3 institutions, Cultural Centres, Archives, etc. The product is too strong to damage and the more accessible we can make it to society as a whole the better it is for all.
Just going back to the original question, I don't think degrees make for better musicians (Joe Cooley, Tommy Peoples, Matt Molloy are all examples of musicians par excellence who I don't think have done third level courses in trad).
As for "a class society" with some musicians this has and always will be there. We all know these musicians who for various reasons (perhaps fleadh success, long time teachers, concert artistes - they'll always find a reason and the degree might just be one other) feel too special to sit down and play with us mere mortals. Thankfully there are many others (musicians such as Kieran Hanrahan, Maurice Lennon, Johnny Connolly - these are just a few from my own personal session experiences) who, like the late Sonny Murray, would have no time for this musical snobbery.
Well said Bren I wonder what damage has been done already?
I know the damage done to English music in the past Timing from 5/4 to 4/4 ,Modes to 'straight ' keys ,have academic collectors done or doing the similar thing to Irish music.
I have a feeling Victorian collectors of Irish music *did* tinker with the tunes to fit them to Classical or at any rate drawing-room conventions. (I'm thinking of one buried in a family cupboard - I think the collector's name was Petrie, but even here I'm not quite sure - haven't looked in there for yonks...)
O'Neill did so to some extent, didn't he? (He was publishing right at the end of the Victorian period, I think.)
"I know the damage done to English music in the past Timing from 5/4 to 4/4 ,Modes to 'straight ' keys ,have academic collectors done or doing the similar thing to Irish music."
Irish music has the benefit of an unbroken living tradition, whereas many of the old English tunes are only known because of the work of the collectors,
It doesn't matter what academics do or don't do. Folk music will live on as long as ordinary folks continue to play what they love, because they love it, and play it the way they picked it up from the folks around them. There is nothing wrong with academics. They often serve a valuable purpose in preserving and spreading the music. But again, it is ordinary folks playing music the way they want to, not the way someone told them to, that are at the heart of any folk music.
"Thankfully there are many others (musicians such as Kieran Hanrahan, Maurice Lennon, Johnny Connolly - these are just a few from my own personal session experiences) who, like the late Sonny Murray, would have no time for this musical snobbery."
Music degree = musical snobbery? Honestly... is this what you're really saying?
I'd like to ask people on this thread in general: doesn't all-Ireland championships create musical snobbery too?
Personally I think the contests are more likely to, but they seem to also provide a purpose in young people to learn the music and another reason to get together and play. Wouldn't music education at university level do the same?
I didn't say "Music degree = musical snobbery" - see first part of my post "As for "a class society" with some musicians this has and always will be there. We all know these musicians who for various reasons (perhaps fleadh success, long time teachers, concert artistes - they'll always find a reason and the degree might just be one other) feel too special to sit down and play with us mere mortals."
My point was that if musicians want to exercise snobbery (and many love to!), they'll find some pretext and I see no reason why a music degree should be singled out from any of the others.
Congrats, Dow! I cannot explain it but I seem to be reading your past comments everyday. This time it was, are you ready, Barndances ~ "What I now understand to be a typical "barndance" is like a hornpipe with less notes in and with that 3-note pattern all over the place - not just at the end, like for example Vincent Broderick's "Around The Fairy Fort". Do you play that one? If that's what a barndance is, then I think I've nailed what the difference is. If not, then I'm stumped..."
"Dance of the Honeybees"
July 11th 2004 by Dow
Hope the PhD doesn't keep you away from barndances or too many of Vincent Broderick's tunes. Don't know about childish. But, you know childlike.
Actually no to be honest I haven't got it yet, it's still being examined, but when I do you'll know about it cause I'm gonna change my name to "Dr. Dow" and make everyone address me as "Doctor" until I get sick of it. I'll probably milk it for about a week or two
AlB:
>It doesn't matter what academics do or don't do. Folk music >will live on as long as ordinary folks continue to play what >they love, because they love it, and play it the way they picked >it up from the folks around them. There is nothing wrong with >academics. They often serve a valuable purpose in >preserving and spreading the music. But again, it is ordinary >folks playing music the way they want to, not the way >someone told them to, that are at the heart of any folk music
Yes, even the "good guy" academics like Breathnach would have their obsessions like melodeons and accordeons destroying the music. Makes me laugh that the living practitioners of a living tradition were considered to be killing that tradition. . Still a top man Brendan mind, in many ways
"What I now understand to be a typical "barndance" is like a hornpipe with less notes in and with that 3-note pattern all over the place - not just at the end, like for example Vincent Broderick's "Around The Fairy Fort". Do you play that one? If that's what a barndance is, then I think I've nailed what the difference is. If not, then I'm stumped..."
now then, this just reinforces my prejudice about barndances being crap hornpipes. I admitted to this in another thread (yes, I can go OT on multiple threads it's a natural talent you might say) and asked to be put right. Not too many takers there, and Dow's description captures how I feel about barndances.
So I'm setting myslef up for correction here. Step up and weild the cane <cough>: so to speak.
I was just looking at some barndances in the database
It seems like over half of them are some other type of tune
And a small majority actually could sound like what I a think of as a barndance, and some of them are hornpipes or hornpipe hybrids. Many are polkas, highlands, strathspeys, marches...etc
It seems like folks call most anything a barndance but reels and jigs.
This is the only thing I can come up with. A well played barndance makes you want to dance. Short of that, the only comfort is knowing the tune eventually has to end .
If a tune sounds crap to you don't play the tune. No worries Chris, I never assumed anything about yourself. Cheers.
Random_notes, would it be possible for you to mail one of those honorary paychecks to me for my honorary PHD?
For several years, I used to play regularly at a local blues jam. Two of the regulars at this blues jam were semi-retired professional musicians who had worked as sidemen/backup musicians to some quite famous entertainers (yes you would recognize the names). Neither one of these men had ever learned how to read music or gone to college or university but I still learned a lot about performing music in front of an audience from working with both of them.
Whenever someone tries to study music too closely and/or too enthusiastically by taking it apart and putting it under a microscope, it seems to me that they run the risk of damaging it. If you are going to study music, you need to keep a sense of balance and perspective and remember that this music has existed perfectly well on its own long before you decided to try studying it.
When I was a music major in college, the professors whom I got along with the best were the ones who enjoyed performing in front of an audience. The professors whom I had trouble with were the ones who just wanted to stay safely in the classroom and teach. They were still reluctant to perform even when they were ordered to by the chairman of the music department. If you are going to teach music, you must be able to perform it as well.
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic ~ slowed to a crawl
I don't have a music degree, though I did go to a school known for it's jazz program. The town was very lively. Wherever I went I always met musicians. Thinking back, it wasn't a stodgy academic environment. People were always getting together to play music.
I can appreciate music as a living & breathing creature. Too much examination removes ephemeral experiences & blunts the nuances. This is not to say university should have nothing to do with traditional music. Just take care. So, even though academia can distort something we love, it is conceivable traditional musicians & university musicians can session together. They do, ya' know.
Laurence, if you give me the Chancellor's name I will ask why you have not yet been paid. They may be waiting for back tuition.
It has been so long since I graduated that I can't remember the Chancellor's name. Also, I shouldn't owe any back tuition or front tuition because it has been quite a few years since I made the last payment on my student loans.
One of the assistant jazz instructors (who played saxophone) at the college where I was a music major would sometimes sit in at the blues jam. This unfortunate person had the dubious pleasure of reading through and grading some of my concert and recital reports which I had to write while I was a music major in college.
Is trad music becoming too academic
Is trad music becoming too academic
Are musicians with degrees in trad music better trad musicians?
Do we have a "class society" emerging within trad?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Certainly worthy enough topic for a doctoral thesis.
Any takers?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by leoj
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Is trad music becoming too academic?
For some people, yes.
Are musicians with degrees in trad music better trad musicians?
Better than what/who? Better than people without degrees or better than they themselves would have been if they hadn't done the degree? I'm pretty sure the degree in itself would not make you a better player. But you might have put more hours in if you had the excuse that you were studying it formally. But then again, more hours doesn't necessarily make you a better player.
Do we have a "class society" emerging within trad?
Definitely not. There's no way someone with a degree would not sit and play with someone without one. And vice versa. It simply wouldn't come into it.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Sorry, should have clarified: better than those without a degree.
But is there a possibility that, over time, snobbery might occur.
Will those with degrees quietly believe themselves superior musicians?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Will those with degrees quietly believe themselves superior musicians?
Maybe some will, the t w a t s. But there's also probably people without degrees who'll think themselves better players for that.
I'm all for non-vocational education. It's the mark of a civilised society. If anything, I'm jealous. I'd love to be able to afford to swan arround for a few yours doing nothing that's gonna help me pay the bills.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
few years
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Lads..lads.. think about it.....when was the last time that any of you sat and played Egan's Polka or The Rakes of Mallow with Dr O'Súilleabháin or Dr Gavin for that matter?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Well I have not noticed a snobbishness amongst the students on the degree course in Glasgow although I doubt they are any more immune than anyone else from being snobby or developing an ego. It is true that they are all excellent musicians, as you would expect, but there are others who have not done the course who are just as good.
I think it is fair to say that a lot of the younger musicians who have the necessary level of talent are drawn to the idea of a degree in traditional music and it is also fair to say that the course provides them with a great opportunity to learn from some of the best musicians and improve themselves as a result. It can also give them a new way to think about the music and broaden their outlook, although not everyone probably sees that as a good thing.
As I said above though it does not necessarily follow that those with a degree would be better musicians than those without. There is no accounting for natural talent.
I hope that makes sense.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Good points lads. I'm wondering if in, say, 100 years time, academia will make playing in a session more inaccessible in some way or other. If we jump forward 100 years will the music be over complicated, self-indulgent and maybe poles apart from the music we play today, with influences of other world music now having such an enormous impact.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
I disagree. I think an element of the class system sligeach suggested is creeping into the music. I've played at sessions, not just here but in assorted other cities with unis that have folk music degree programs, and found noticeable divisions and tension between students and local trad players. It's actually not that bad in Glasgow -- divisions are there but at least to me, they're not as fraught with bitchiness as they have been in other places. If I had a pound for every time I've gone into a session, been asked if I was on the course, and then, after answering "no," totally ignored for the rest if the night, I'd be able to afford regulators no bother. Yes, degree programs breed classism and snobbery, even though the students might be some of the nicest people in the world. It's the culture of the institution meets standard 18-22 year old insecurity.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
I think it would be fair to say that the majority of musicians who are deified on these pages had no formal education whatsoever and by the sound of them, all the better for it.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by strayaway
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Some sessions are probably already like that but if that is what the people going to them want then fair enough. There will always be other sessions out there. Besides those on the traditional music courses are still there because they love traditional music, whether that be Scottish, Irish or English. I can't see that changing just because they also like some Scandinavian music.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Cross-post. My reply was to Sligeach.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Impossible to say what the music will sound like in 100 years other that it will for certain be different. Though I don't see how it could possibly get more self indulgent than it is today.
Sure the modern traditional Irish music of 100 years from now will be influenced by other world musics, not least because it always has been. But I suspect that that music, whatever it might be, will be the mainstay of the non academic players. It's more likely that the academics will be playing and studying historical Irish music - the music we play now.
"Don't you just love those ancient Liz Carroll tunes? Astonishing how they've lasted over a 100 years. Giz a blast o' that ol' Lost in the Loop again on yer sunflower powered theramin"
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Sounds like abit of ANTI-snobbery creeping in. Or just inferiority complex against academically qualified people.
Actually, if you ask me, if you have a degree and/or are a musician it shows you have the wherewithall to rise above the masses academically and/or musically, displaying aptitude to bed down to a good bit slog learning your subject and/or your instrument. If are able to apply yourself to study you are more likely to be able to apply yourself to learning an instrument. What's so bad about that?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by 'S dat you, O'Flibberty?
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
The vast majority of musicians 100 years ago didn't travel the distances people travel today: the world is much smaller. They weren't exposed to the different music that we're exposed to today: we have recordings; television; internet etc. So I think that up until now the music would have changed at a really slow pace. I know of musicians who would have travelled 30/ 40 miles when they heard s.o had a new tune in order to learn it, and on a bicycle.
Silver, I have also witnessed younger musicians behaving like this. I'v also met some who believe that the more complicated the tune is the better it is!
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Dodger's right (I think?). It's important to respect that the music is a luxury we afford ourselves the time to enjoy. That is where it was born and that is where it's heart should remain. If I have anything at all against the academic study of it, it would be that, by definition, it takes that away.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Claire Sweeney
The beauty of our tradition is that it has been handed down by hand: o Ghluin go gluin.
Maybe future trad musos won't be able to learn anything by ear!
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Maybe your average trad musician 100 years ago would think that we, today, are all a snobby, silly, pretintious bunch.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by shanty
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Claire, further to my point above, you will not find the heart of this music by exercising your wherewithall to rise above the masses.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Claire, for your information I have degrees, more than one, working on another, but not in music. It hardly means I have the "wherewithall to rise above the masses" (huh?) and probably means I don't have the wherewithall to get a real job.
I agree with Michael's last post.
Any "anti-snobbery" feelings I might have come from too many experiences of putting up with folk who won't give you the time of day because they have a folk music degree and you don't. In any case, are you "pro-snobbery?"
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
"Maybe future trad musos won't be able to learn anything by ear!"
I have yet to come across a trad music student who is unable to learn something by ear.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
"If are able to apply yourself to study you are more likely to be able to apply yourself to learning an instrument"
hmm - I'm not sure it works that way Claire. I, for one, pick up instruments and learn to play them purely for pleasure. (Now if I come on a hard bit I will put a bit of effort into it, to make a tune sound good - but if I find that I really can't play that tune then I'll find one I can play.) I play the music to get away from slogging. Slogging is what I do for a living.
As for rising above the masses I wholeheartedly echo what Llig says. This is the music of the masses, and if you rise above them you will leave it behind.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by showaddydadito
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Claire Sweeney
I might be stating the obvious here but anyone who plays music is obviously highly intelligent otherwise how could they do what they do. Learning an instrument is largely determined by the sheer determination of the individual, surely.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
I know a lot of people who are amazing musicians but didn't even finish their undergraduate degree and I know people with PhDs who can't play a note. You theory doesn't fly, Claire.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
*your...
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
No Cause
Not yet you haven't. But I know people who play classical who can't play without sheet music. Maybe that's the way things will evolve here.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
I could be slog, it could be. But I don't know any good classical players who can't play by ear.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Lig
No-body mentioned the calibre of musicianship.I didn' say they wrere good classical musicians. In trad music I welcome the fact that you don't have to be a good musician to join in and play and learn.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
I know a lot of people who are amazing musicians but didn't even finish their undergraduate degree.
My God in Heaven! Not even their undergraduate degree! Fckn' cavemen.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by shanty
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
(I laughed at that too, not "even" their undergraduate degree. ho ho)
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
The Devil a care. With love. Eat the educated.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by shanty
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
The 'exclusive' attitude Silver Spear commented on may be simply what you get if a bunch of mainly young people are given the opportunity to study and play (in all senses of the word) together for a couple of years. They develop a way of communicating with each other based on their common experience. Add to that a bit of youthful impatience and they may well come over as elitist when they do things, especially as a group, with people outside the group.
There have been some posts here recently where academic language has been rather conspicuous. Can't blame people for not turning it off if they are enthusiastic.
More relevant is what people are they like 5 or 10 years later, when they spend more time spread out in the real world to earn a living.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by David50
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
"I'm all for non-vocational education. It's the mark of a civilised society. If anything, I'm jealous. I'd love to be able to afford to swan arround for a few yours doing nothing that's gonna help me pay the bills."
said Michael, and I quite agree.
I just hope those on the degree courses aren't being led (or leading themselves) up the garden path believing they'll be able to make a decent living at it!
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by TomB-R
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
claire, what exactly do you mean by rise above the masses? disgusting comment and you should withdraw it. It's elitist opinions like yours that truly tarnish the tradition. Wise up.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by strayaway
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
@shanty, saw this on a quotes site.
Education is what survives when what has been learned has been forgotten.
- B. F. Skinner
'nuff said?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by john knoss
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
@sligeach,
no and yes.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by john knoss
Webster's says academic means...
academic
Function: adjective
Date: 1588
1 a : of, relating to, or associated with an academy or school especially of higher learning b : of or relating to performance in academic courses <academic excellence> c : very learned but inexperienced in practical matters <academic thinkers> d : based on formal study especially at an institution of higher learning
2 : of or relating to literary or artistic rather than technical or professional studies
3 a : theoretical, speculative <an academic question> b : having no practical or useful significance
4 : conforming to the traditions or rules of a school (as of literature or art) or an official academy : conventional <academic painting>
Is Trad music becoming any of the above?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by yhaalhouse
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Wow, y'all missed my irony there. I used the word "even" in a sarcastic "shock, horror, people can play really good music without a degree!" sort of way, responding to the tone of Claire's post. I'm usually better at getting sarcasm across on message boards. Oh well, we all have our daft-sounding moments.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Yhaalhouse
Now don't be getting all pedantic and "academic" on us.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
I'm getting out of my depth here. What do I know? Ha.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by john knoss
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
John Knoss
Brilliant quote!
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
You're very welcome.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by john knoss
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
My wife's sister and her husband are both brilliant educated musicians, yet they cannot sit down and play along in a session without sheet music. While I think it's great that they are educated musicians, I find that something is missing....basically a "feel" for the music.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by darxxx
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Are some people "too" academic? Yes, so what, they'll learn in good time. There's room for everyone. There seems to be plenty who stay with the heart of ITM. Others learn from them. Think I'll go play my tunes.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by janmarie
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
darxxx
That's probably it. You can hear the difference ( and see) when a musician is playing with a good "feel" for the music and when they are going through the mechanics of it.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Ya can either play the music or ya can't the same as ya can either drive an F1 car fast or ya can't. Good tutoring helps players reach their full potential but natural ability can't be bought or learned. Simple as that. Is it too academic? I think its great that people have a chance to study ITM as a recognized degree and shows that it has come a long way and is treated as a full art form which can be studied and understood deeply. I'd hope anyone who does a degree in it is humbled by it. Some choose to learn all the theory and history about tunes and different players and styles. Whereas others just want to play. Its good to know as much as possible as it celebrates a national treasure. But just don't expect to be the best musician because of a degree. if i did a degree in F1 driving i'd know all the history and be able to talk about everything, but i'd still be slow out of the bends!! As for snobbery who cares? Some people are tossers and some aren't
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by FergalOH
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Exactly Fergal, exactly.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
No Cause
I sussed already that you are doing some sort of degree in trad.
Fergal
I would say you haven't played in too many sessions thus your naivity.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
No Cause isn't doing a degree in trad.
Anyway, I'm not bothered by the fact that there are degrees in folk music out there that one can do. You can degrees in sh*t that's weirder and more esoteric than that. What bugs me, just based on my observations of what people seem to bring with them to sessions from their course, is the attitude. You go to some sessions and it is more like a performance -- lets see how fast, how syncopated, and in how many weird keys we can play all these tunes.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Personally I think that our "national treasure" is in danger of beihg slowly smothered by its new academic standing.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Jazz has been academized for a couple of generations (or more?). Anybody have insight into how that’s gone?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
its basically gutted what it was the old guys were actually doing
I had lessons from an old bebop piano player before I went to study at the university. Stan taught how to use triads to imply 2 keys at once. All the extentions and upper harmonies were comming from his superimposing another key on the key we were playing
at the university, they taught 9th, 11th, and 13th chords and to memorize patterns that fit over certain chord changes
basically "lick" oriented playing
while that is one way to train your basic college student to play soemthing that sounds like jazz, its not what the guys were doing
now what they were doing is gone and is replaced by an easier system that could be taught to the average college student
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
How many people play jazz without having gone to university??
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Darxxx,
The people you spoke of may have gone to loads of schools and had famous teachers, but if they're useless by ear they've not been educated in the slightest. It's not their fault, it lies in their teachers. No matter what the genre, the ear leads the way. The printed page but reminds.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by reenactor
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Bob -
Good comment on jazz. Jazz was a cultural music once upon a time, something one learned only by playing in or frequenting the seedy backdrop from whence it came. And I'm not saying that with any disrespect whatsoever. Real jazz didn't rely on dots, in fact it broke free of the dots. The dots could not contain the music, nor should it with ITM. I admit to using the dots sometimes, but not primarily, and I'm trying to find that place where I don't rely on them at all.
Good thread.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Truly astounding that folks have money and time enough to get a degree in something that will never pay the rent, or contribute to their own survival in our great (gag) Western Capitalist system.
However, as Llig points out, it is one of the hallmarks of civilization, having wealth and leisure time enough to get a college degree in a ‘folk’ music.
I remember Sean Keane of The Chieftains in ‘Water from the Well’ laughing at the memory of how upset his father was that Sean was going to go play music for a living and not have a proper job. The elder Keanes played fiddle in the home and worked their whole lives to raise their children.
I’m amused to think of what Sean’s house-painting and fiddle-playing father would think of it all.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Nate, that’s consistent with my observations, but I’ve never been deeply involved. From my limited point of view, it seemed that from the 1920’s into the 50’s or 60’s, jazz was living and breathing, but most of what I’ve heard since then seems less like playing jazz and more like a discussion about jazz or a deconstruction of it. Or just pure self-indulgence. I don’t know if that makes any sense.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
University towns have pubs. Pubs have sessions. The combination might not help your GPA, though that argument is purely academic.
I was doing what I always do ~ searching through prior discussions on the matter. Found this;
Irish World Academy of Music and Dance
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NNNhirgc44
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Is trad music becoming too academic? Not nearly as academic as this debate. Once again, I see this boiling down to the simple concept that some folks are cliquish jerks and some people are quite amiable by nature. Book learnin' and PhD's has nothing to do with it.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Bob-
That's because in the 50's and 60's, jazz became populated by the beat generation, which in itself was not a bad thing, but that was when jazz entered intellectual circles, which was the doorway to the college campus, which spelled the end of real jazz.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Ranom
They certainly know how to sell it - looks and sounds the business. But only serves to reinforce my concern that an elitist attitude will eventually come about ( and it's already started) within trad because of these "degrees" and I think that, long term, this will have a detrimental effect on our musical tradition.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Sorry, Random.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
At the place where my daughter studied there was a guy who did his degree in . . . . . .
wait for it . . . . . .
. . . . . . playing the drums
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by showaddydadito
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Here's a bit more from the thread I mentioned. The link starts with one of our members whom I really miss around these parts;
Re: Third Level Trad Courses: Do they have any discernable affect on the genre?
April 29th 2008 by shoddy fiddle player
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17592/comments#comment366004
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
As SS said I am not on a traditional music course and neither am I at University any more, although when I was I studied history and not music.
Having said that I do have lots of friends who either are, or have been on traditional music courses and, for them, it seems a great opportunity to study further what they have already invested a large proportion of their life on. To be honest the vast majority of them will already be highly talented on their chosen instrument(s) before they ever get anywhere near University. Fair play to them. You only get out of this music what you put into it and they have invested a lot. That is why they are good.
I would have loved to have had the opportunity to study traditional music at University but I was not playing the music back then and I am still not good enough to do it now, even if I was so inclined to return to Uni.
As far as I am concerned the question being asked is the wrong one. It shouldn't be a question of whether these courses are creating musical snobs it should be a question of why shouldn't this music offer the opportunity of University accreditation in the same way as almost anything else.
As has already been said it is not a chosen avenue of study that makes someone a snob or elitist and to be honest those with little musical ability can be just as snobby.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Can you give an example of the elitist attitude that you say has already started?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by John Culhane
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Yes.
Next question.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Bob, I've always thought of jazz as like a dead language. my style is basically stuck in 1955, and that's the way I like it
I think the reason you see jazz in university programs is because of economics: jazz lets you offer music degrees to people who don't play orchestral instruments - namely guitar players who just want to lay around all day and not study calculus
also jazz got accepted as being an intellectual musical form. Most of the time popular or folk music was left out of the conservatory
the idea that jazz was one thing that America gave the world culturally helped get jazz education accepted as a legitimate academic field, too
There were some guys in the 70s that really worked hard to produce top notch teaching methods to get jazz education into the university systems. These were guys like Jerry Coker at Indiana, Jamie Abersold and his national summer workshops, Jack Petersen at Berkley and then at NTSU, and people like that.
That there was a movement to create a teaching method for improvisation is what brought jazz into university degree programs in the 1970s
but now everybody sounds the same
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Tacoman
Have met them at sessions, and shared a stage with some.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Random
Interesting. But gives the impression that the students will all find work within the music industry as a result of having a degree.
To paraphrase the Wounded Hussar (further down the thread), the dangers are, "turning a community music into a stream of revenue: employing people and selling services that they once did for free and that were part of the fabric of our musical tradition. More than just the music can be affected: maybe in the future these musicians will only teach if there is a monetary reward;maybe they won't do sessions unless money is involved.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
sligeach
I am interested in how they exhibit this elitist attitude that you recognize.
The people I have met with trad music degrees or ethnomusicoligists are interested in learning about how I came to the music, how I play, what I listen to, etc... In short, they are engaging and inclusive. I have met some pretty snobby folks who always seem to know the right way to play something and are happy to let you know if you're not doing it the right way. But that has nothing at all to do with having a trad music degree.
Anyway, interesting subject.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by John Culhane
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
one could say it's all a matter of degree....
swfl..where are you?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
I am glad someone read a few of the 89 responses in the thread.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Do they help with job placement after graduation?
"Congratulations graduate! We have several options for you! There's a lovely corner for busking over there. Also, this pub is looking for trad on Thursdays. Go out there and get 'em, Tiger!"
Damn right I'm jealous! Where's my Planxty? I want to sit around on my duff playing tunes too! Give me a damn degree! I'll give you the third! I'll settle for Celsius!
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
On a more serious "note"
I don't think the trend has anything to do with "class" per se, but I DO think it has everything to do with professionalizing anything at hand that can be.
This is a trend in our society and in academia.
Remember when kids' soccer/football was just a kick around the lot? Now it's professionalized with jerseys, coaching, shoes and teams and away games...the whole lot. And sometimes pro or semi pro coaches as well.
Same for baseball.
Remember when writing novels and especially poetry was something one "just did" -- much like playing irish traditional music. Now academe has coopted it and has made it a profession with workshops, master classes, creative writing degrees -- you name it. The whole lot.
And who can blame them? It started with university's sensing people would PAY to learn from "name" writers...Robert Frost was one of the first to offer writing classes I believe.
It meant that you no longer had to be a banker full time like T.S. Eliot and write The Wasteland on the side. You could be paid to do your hobby and long as you commuted the secrets of the craft to eager young minds.
Same for Irish trad i suspect. It's a money making venture but also a *validating* venture..
We love official stamps of approval certifying our talent and knowledge of the lore of things.
that's my thought anyway.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
...and as if on cue...
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Wicked cross posting!
...and Random, I read and commented the first time on that old thread, is that OK?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
To a certain extent, I think most music training at regular universities serves about the same purpose as an English Literature Degree does. It provides a skill set that is not particularly useful (in a direct sense) for making a living, but which allows the degree seeker to engage their passion for 4 years and to come out of the experience with a College Degree. I do think you probably pick up useful skills in the process, but they are a side benefit.
Of course, ultimately, we are in a world where many H.R. managers are more interested in whether you have a degree (Any degree) than whether you have the skills needed to do the job.
--
Bill
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by bill_mchale
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
a degree ensures or is some kind of societal stamp of "stick with it ness" and some modicum of smarts....
for whatever that's worth
it's kind of a karmic insurance policy for HR managers.
we've all met dumb academics; we've all met highly intelligent craftspeople -- carpenters, car mechanics, bicycle repair men/women
it's all laughable the end. but we crave these pieces of paper as a hedge...against what?
what! I ask you! ;)
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
I think some of you are missing the point. I don't mean to offend anyone here, but I'm wondering is it because you don't live here and maybe don't quite fully grasp that a way of life that has existed for centuries in this country is undergoing a change that will change it forever ( just as with jazz). There is more to it than just the musical notes. Our tradition ( our Oral tradition) is in danger of gradually disappearing and being replaced by an "intellectual musical form".
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
sligeach
I understand perfectly...it's not unique to Ireland or Irish music.
everything is for sale.
everything is commodifiable.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
sligheach...
another thought....what could Ireland or even Irish musicians do to mitigate this? is it Ireland's fault or shall we blame it on River Dance?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
I was referring to tacoman, mtodd, not yourself.
You're right, everything, when it boils down to it, is now 'commodifiable'. Personally I don't like it one little bit.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Blame it on basic human nature!!
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Sligeach whats naive about what i said??
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by FergalOH
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
yeah. sigh. but there is one thing that isn't so commodifiable I think and that would be one's own deep seated reasons for loving and enjoying the music. Keep that close and safe and ultimately it doesn't matter who dreams of marketing schemes or trades on Irish culture. It's the people who come together out of a great liking for whatever this music brings them or the place it takes them too...great players and not so great alike.
No one will ever be able to bottle that. That's something you suddenly find after many years when all the reasons you *thought* you started playing for drop away and you're just sort of left in awe at why you actually might be.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Between a pub session and Riverdance is a load of music making (and dance and drama) that has quite a complicated mix of amateur, commercial and institutional involvement. To call it "commodified" is unfair
In the UK a lot of things that happen - a gig in a village hall by a trad band on tour, an amatuer group making some sort of music, a traditional dance classes etc rely on volunteers, commercial concerns, not-for profit organisations and usually government funding for the arts. Its the world in which many of these graduates work. Bits of paper or commercial skills are good when applying for funding and making whatever it is work.
It doesn't stop people going to the pub to play tunes.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by David50
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
My experience with this concerns the spill over effect whereby young touring musicians over here flog themselves as graduates of these courses first. This then becomes the standard by which festival organisers flog musical talent to the ticket buying public. Such-and-such young band are all graduates of "pick your course". Local immigrant musicians steeped in tradition can't get a look in because they don't have these qualifications. When these festivals are combined with teaching modules the problem is compounded because many of these singers and players although successful graduates have a tenuous connection with any tradition and have limited skills as performers and interpreters of traditional music, the singing particularly can be quite dire, and they're teaching the new generation. I can't comment what it's like Stateside but certainly here in Ontario and more widely in Canada it is becoming an issue but most people don't realise that it is so because they don't know any better. This doesn't apply to all graduates, of course, but it certainly applies to many, many products of these courses that I've experienced over here in the last few years.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Patkiwi
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
As some one who last had any academic music lesons aged 14 some XXX years ago ( sorry problem with the printer )
I think that from what I have seen the academic input is only locally abundant , close to cities that have ethnomusic or folk music degrees.
So no I dont think so because soon most of the students realise that there is no money in it and they will have to get a real job like the rest of us and who reads their research anyway ?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Patkiwi
Very enlightening.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Wow Pat I would like to see someone trying that round here.
We would all laugh .
Very few of the graduates make it as a proffesional musician round here.. How many finish the course ?
Where do they all go ?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
@ sligeach,
Your last point raises an issue that has been discussed previously here and that is the place of traditional music within the wider context of Irish culture and society. Many practitioners here could name every Clare concertina player within a ten mile radius of Milltown Malbay but have no concept of Hurling or football or that Ireland lost to France this week or dodging customs to get back for a family funeral or having the last singing session on the lash as 5 of your best mates from school head off to Australia because there's no work at home. I can't take the music out of the context that I know but it seems to me that many of these courses do exactly that.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Patkiwi
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Patkiwi
You've hit the nail on the head man!
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
sligeach, it'd be great if you could expand on the statement "Our tradition ( our Oral tradition) is in danger of gradually disappearing and being replaced by an "intellectual musical form"" as it's at variance with my experience.
Similarly, Patkiwi, some detail would be great as my experience of the BA and MA courses at UL, which I know well, place the music very much within Irish culture.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Sweeney Astray
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
I'd have thought that all of us play "conforming to the rules and conventions of a school" - to quote one definition of "academic" given somewhere above - if we're out to play ITM properly. The "school" (of Irish music in toto) definitely has its expected ways of doing things and its no-nos: but these are to a great extent dictated by the very nature of the music and its instruments, and are not just arbitrary limits on free expression. Also, they are elastic.
My fear for some of the people who graduate from folk and indeed other music, art, or media-orientated courses is this: that they'll get co-opted as part of a cheer-leading corps by a political and cultural establishment that is actually anti-culture but wants to use culture for economic and political profit while it sets about entrenching its power and brainwashing the populace into acquiescence. I have more than a suspicion this is actually going on in the UK.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
I'll try again sone my post went into limbo.
Can a guy with academic credentials get into this discussion?
What academe does is study things. They attempt to fit what they study into some broader field of knowledge. So, one might study ITM to see how it fits into European traditional music in general. Good academics understand and respect whatever they study. Bad ones overgeneralize and make truly stupid conclusions.
One of my favorite stupid conclusions was one drawn from a study of some old recordings of Appalachian fiddle tunes. Some academics decided that it was clear from those recordings that the guitar was seen only as a rhythm instrument and that a single chord was usually played through the entire tune. What really happened is that the recording company brought in a guitarist that didn't know the tunes. So, he just clunked away on the basic chord (sound like some sessions you've been to?)
In sum good academics try to respect their subject matter, not alter it. Bad ones force truly bad knowledge on their students. A problem comes when there is a sudden demand to study some kind of music. Colleges seldom have the right person available to teach the subject (for lots of reasons some of which are discussed above), so folks try to use materials developed by some other academic. The result is usually pretty watered down, and often gives false notions about whatever is being taught.
My conclusion: academic study is useful, but no be all and end all. I'm not a good an ITM as many of the folks posting out here. My academic training didn't help me get the kinds of executent skills and "improvisitory" skills needed. On the other hand, that academic training does make me able to figure out what the good players are doing. But of course I could have gotten that same knowledge by going to more sessions and probably been a better player too.
So...academic training can be a blessing or curse. One can't generalize about academics any more than about trad players. Probably more academic study will bring some bad players into the world, but it won't shut down the business of getting together to play. Academy could never do that.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by cboody
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Do I hear the drumbeat of the BNP?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
@P J Doherty,
My original post was not specifically about any one program (UL in your case I assume) but rather about the propensity for employers here (Canada) to hire graduates of these courses. Lots of people get hired for concert series, festival performance work and teaching during the summer months here, many of them are graduates of these courses. I stated that quite clearly in my first sentence I thought. Regardless, I have had the opportunity to meet many such graduates over the years in this context and have been quite surprised at how little they understand the wider picture which is what I was alluding to in my response to sligeach. I know many of the teachers personally at UL (I recently found an old photo of myself and Niall Keegan busking up Shop Street in Galway way too long ago) so I know they have the bona fides and the experience but graduates that I have met who have gone through UL for example (and I mean specifically here non nationals) do not have a grasp of the wider culture which leads me to assume that it is taken out of context. It is after all a music programme, not a sociology module. Now, I have never attended UL and probably never will so I do stand to be corrected.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Patkiwi
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Well, I guess that depends on what BNP means. Help those of us across the pond please...
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by cboody
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
PJ
Unlike yourself I have never learned a tune from manuscript. I don't read music but that's not a problem as far as I'm concerned. I learned fiddle from my father, who learned it from his father and proceeded to teach myself the old gi-tar. My kids have learned from me as have some of their friends. I grew up playing in sessions and learned my craft there. Learned tunes from other musicians who learned them from the generation before them. That's my culture, my experience - Beal-oideas ( I am assuming you know what this is). So, tell me,PJ, can your university bottle this and teach it in their courses that are so well "placed" within Irish culture.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
@Random_notes,
I doubt it mate.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Patkiwi
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Sorry Choody don't understand why he has mentioned Brtish Nationalist Party - Far right facist party.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
BNP= british national party
right wing racist party
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
cboody, I agree this thread is falling into generalities. We cross-posted. I was referring to the British National Party's [Manifesto] stated policy of compulsory studies of indigenous/folk arts & music. I assumed nicholas was bringing up something along those lines.
Took me a minute to get this typed. I was not implying anything about anyone on this thread. More generalizations. Agreed, it doesn't help the discussion.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
sligeach
You're right, I was missing the point earlier. I think I get it a little better now. Thanks for the clarification.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by John Culhane
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
No problem tacoman.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
"Readin' is for rich people!"
- shouted across pub by drunk unknown Irish musician, NYC, circa 1997
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Drum-beat of the BNP? Not from me, mate! I was on against things I see being done or promoted by the quangocracy, and the BNP may be have a similar or greater antipathy to these. But I'm not one of them.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
sligeach, I'm not certain why you felt the need to to observe "Unlike yourself I have never learned a tune from manuscript". Does that somehow give your opinions more authority? If you've never used manuscript or tab your missing a useful tool that cuts you off from some fine sources of tunes. Or do you think it somehoe makes you more authentic? So you learnt from your father who learnt from his, and I learnt from my parents who learnt from their parents who learnt from theirs. Does that make me more authentically trad than you now? Enough with the p*ssing contest.
As you're know doubt aware there are thousands for trad musicians in Irish communities across the world, myself and it would seem yourself, who continue to teach trad face to face, hand to ear to hand. Almost certainly more than at anytime in history. Only a tiny percentage of young trad musicians go on to take ethnomusicology or performance practice at third level institutions. So I remain curious as to how ""Our tradition ( our Oral tradition) is in danger of gradually disappearing and being replaced by an "intellectual musical form."". For a start what do you mean by an "intellectual musical form"? Are you trying to suggest that this small number of graduates are going to transform trad into some form of high art practiced only by a few? Nonsense. I'm really not trying to pick a fight with you but genuinely curious to understand the point you're trying to make.
The majority of students attending such third level courses have been playing trad for ten years plus. Most of them having had tunes passed on to them by their family and teachers in the way you described so of course they're "well "placed" within Irish culture.".
I'm not quite sure what throwing in loosely related Gaeilge adds to your post particularly given the lack of syntax. Certainly in Munster the term is confined to storytelling and lore rather than the the aural transmission of music.
Patkiwi, now that you've introduced the "non-nationals" qualification your observation undoubtedly has more substance. Now naturally all I can speak to is personal experience but those non-national graduates from UL that I've met, perhaps half a dozen, have almost invariably been more Irish than the Irish, living and playing in the very community that they're studying.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Sweeney Astray
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
wuz that Dodger in that NYC pub perhaps? I'd like to think it was or maybe a like minded spirit.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by john knoss
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
FWIW, Llig summed it up in his 1st few responses.
Aside from that, no worries.
Cheers,
Ben
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
The great Irony is, I bet there are students on traditional music degree courses writing dissertations and theses on this very subject.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
"Irony" with a capital I. You can tell I didn't finish my degree.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
In fairness to sligeach there PJ the term has a wider meaning in Connaught. Also PJ my overall observations are not based on graduates of Irish institutions specifically but rather graduates of similar institutions generally which include Scotland and England . It is interesting to note that entry requirements at UL for some courses do not require previous academic qualifications and will recognise life experience as a factor which is to it's credit. If a Martian tuned into RTE it could be forgiven in thinking that traditional music is dominated by intellectuals, qualified or not, the vast majority of practitioners play away at home with little or no regard for the ivory tower.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Patkiwi
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
PJ
I meant exactly what I said - "Unlike yourself...."
I read your blog. You have stipulated that you have learned tunes from manuscript.
You quite obviously are missing the point. But then as an academic you're going to see it the way you do. And you're going to tell me that because I'm not an academic I'm going to see the way I do - I've saved you the bother. Let the academics study trad music, decipher it ' examine it, blah blah blah.. Let the traditional musicians get on with the business of playing it .
And if you don' t mind, no Gaeige was used "loosely" on my part.
"more Irish than the Irish" I'm amused.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Ha.
what's Gaeige?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
One of the people that passed on music to you wasn't "Jig" wasit?
Wait, is Jig your dad?
Guitarist, and all that....
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Not sure Hugo how I would work that one out.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Actually, there are quite a few similarities.
You do get kind of angsty if someone doesn't agree with you too..
Please don't get all nasty on me though. Ha
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Do you really think so?
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
....and trucks he's your brother!
cause he's "a fighting man", and jig batters people with sticks.
Deadly.
Right, I'm off to play my banjo with my degree under my belt.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
I thought the other guy was being nasty. Just shows you...
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
You'll not be playing too many tunes then Hugo, eh! Ha Ha!
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Yes.
Which I guess is a lesser evil than it dying all together. But a lot of musicians nowadays have a very British sense of Irish culture.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Tadhg mac Saoirse
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
sligeach, If I'm "quite obviously missing the point", then what is the point? Please, I'm genuinely curious to know. You make strong claims: "Our tradition ( our Oral tradition) is in danger of gradually disappearing and being replaced by an "intellectual musical form." but aren't interested in dialogue. If it's merely a strongly held feeling that you can't put into anymore words that at least say that.
And what does "I meant exactly what I said - "Unlike yourself....""actually mean? What was the relevance of extracing something from my bio? Really, I'm genuinely curious. What point were you trying to make, other than I can read music and you can't. So what? The vast majority of trad musicians I've met over the years can read music and I'm pretty certain I've never met a music who hasn't used tab in some form. If you haven't then good for you, and no I'm not being sarcastic.
"But then as an academic you're going to see it the way you do.". What's your basis for describing me as an academic? For what it's worth I'm not. And why do I care whether your an academic or not, it's of no consequence. I'm not trying to disprove or dismiss your claims only genuinely interested in the reasons behind them given that most trad musicians would say that trad is healthier now than it's ever been.
Interestingly enough, my wife, a native speaker from Inis Mór, assures me that only an academic would use the term Béaloideas to refer to the aural transmission of music. So two native speakers in two different dialects feel you've used the wrong term. Now clearly I know what you were trying to say but again you seem much more interested in posing and throwing up smokescreens, than engaging in dialogue.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Sweeney Astray
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
"I thought the other guy was being nasty". If you've formed that impression then I apologise though I struggle to identify the nasty bits. No, I'm interested in your reasoning, not to prove you wrong (not that there are any absolute rights and wrongs on this topic), nor to belittle you, but to understand. (OK, I accept I've picked holes in your Irish, but you were asking for it! Sorry.).
Actual point being discussed, perhaps you know something I don't, perhaps you've seen something I haven't. I'm passionate about the music and interested in anyone's opinion that might make my understanding all the richer.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Sweeney Astray
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
no worries, PJ. I still trust Llig sussed it out in his 1st 2 responses.
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
sligeach, yes. passing the tunes directly, person to person. Yes!
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
PJ
Your responses are taking too long. Can't be waiting for you to confer with your wife every time you're going to respond - I' d be here all night. I think I've made my position quite clear and my reasons for that position are clear too. Ar scor ar bith, ta me scriosta anois - ach ta me ag deaneamh go rachaidh me amach chuig seisiun anois. And in case your wife isn't aware of this, ag deanamh, is Ulster Irish and in this way means thinking. And I am aware there no fadas ( none on this compt.)
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
If you're concerned about certain individuals, in the tradition, becoming too elitist, sligeach, you made your point & then some.
Cheers!
# Posted on November 20th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Random
Are you tryin' to be funny
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
That's your best question. My name is Ben. Pleasure's all mine, mate!
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
..and trucks he's your brother! cause he's "a fighting man"
Chavez.
No need to be derogatory , and you mis represent the context in which that was said. Quite the opposite of being an aggressive statement, or bigging myself up , I was purley being enthusiastic about two seperate things Boxin and choons. im also a happy man and wont hold it against ya. I spend enuf time knockin round Ballymun to know Dubs are prone to bigging themselves up so I can see how ye might have misconstrued what was said in any case. Also some fine muscians have been real fighting men, not just of the tongue and the cheek like myself Gormans, Fureys, Dorans, Keenans. ye have to let people express what they find enjoyment and inspiration in, I suspect it is the Dub in ye automatically tryin to measure yourself up, when infact theres no need..
Interesting discussion. Thers worse ways of spending 4 years than studying trad, granted it doesnt need validation in this sense but sure isnt it great the tradition is strong enough for there to be uptake in the first place. I was going to do that HND in Ballyfermot in trad performance but ended up working on the Belfast Pilot Boat for a year instead. Keeper lit
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Fair enough Ben! Fair play to me!!! (joke!!)
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by sligeach
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
but sure if it wasnt for manuscript would alot of the tunes not have been lost? dont read music myself, can just about decipher it but does the process of compiling O Neills Music of Ireland qualify as acedemic? Surley to a degree it does and along with the other collections have meant tunes stand the test of time. Dont know if this is relavant because O Neill was a peeler and not an acedemic in the technical sense.
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Miss Mulligan
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
......but to get back to the original question.........
......I heard a young Finnish musician at a folk festival a year or three ago; she introduced herself by explaining she had studied under so-and-so at such-and-such, and then gone on to read at another academic institution for her postgraduate studies, and, whilst I thought this all seemed a strange way to go about it, a Finnish friend explained that this would be the standard way they would expect to present themselves in Finland, to demonstrate their credentials.
Oh, and she was an amazing player too.
I suppose that one way one could use these degrees, in the British Isles ( I use that expression in its widest terms ) is merely to demonstrate that one has a suitable, and studious, and intelligent, mind, and would therefore be worthy of being given a job, say, in the Civil Service. Wasn't that what a good degree was for ? After all, a degree is not a label that pins you down to working in one narrow field, is it ?
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Well I think I should get an Honorary PhD just for reading through this thread....bloody hell!
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Sure, Dr. Reed. Due to fiscal cutbacks your honorary paycheck is in the mail.
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Music is never really complicated, it just might not do what you expect it to, but it always exists in it's own right as an expression of what it is. It's very musical nature cannot be complicated. It is pure. If you can't reproduce it on a musical instrument, it's because you don't understand it. If you wrote it, and you tried to make it complicated, maybe it's not music. If you were able to express music perfectly from where it came from the depths of you, it may look very complicated on paper, and unreproduceable, but to the listener it would make perfect sense. I sometimes think a tune is hard because it would go places that were unfamiliar to me, but after being there enough times, I realize the tune was never really hard. It was always there all along in its sweet simplicity.
This is in reference to a comment that folks think a tune being more complicated is better
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
I like that Earl. thank you.
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Yeah Earl I like that too, and I like what Llig had to say early on.
Had to miss much of the discussion because I was off playing trumpet in a college jazz ensemble (I'm way to old, but hey its fun!) . But somehow I think that fits in here. The group is directed by a guy that makes his main living playing jazz. He knows repertoire. He knows about improv in a variety of ways and styles. He sees to it that his students get exposure to the broad spectrum of types of jazz for big and small ensembles. A person going through that class gets useful help in becoming a good jazz player. I can not think of a way that teacher and that training would not be positive. I've played with other groups where the teacher's background was not so solid, and that certainly could be bad for folks.
Seems to me the same is true of teaching about ITM. I'd certainly hate to see anyone force that training (even from good teachers) on anyone. But if it is not forced and the instructor is truly qualified (not necessarily academically qualified) then why not. OTOH if someone is forcing academic stuff...well sligeach has every reason to be concerned.
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by cboody
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
too not to... see I am too old....
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by cboody
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Come on Lads, light the torches, grab your pitchforks, let's march to the university and tear them down... burn the dots... hang the professors!
You guys are funny... lol
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
NO time to read the discussion before staring work but...
PB:
>Come on Lads, light the torches, grab your pitchforks, let's >march to the university and tear them down... burn the dots... >hang the professors!
Pitchfork available for grabbing (non smoker, no sense of propriety, numerous careless prior owners). PO Box 5464
- chris
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Would save me from having to do work.
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
>"Readin' is for rich people!"
I realise this was a bit of a side issue, but it's a long time since I've read bigger bollux than the above. Yeah keep the poor illiterate and unread.
Of course I realise context is everything and twas probably shouted in jest. But nothing worse than the poor celebrating keeping themselves in their place.
- Chris
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
The question is about 100 years too late anyway
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Bren
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
My philosophy is go out and play the tunes and enjoy yourself.
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Dick Miles
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Sorry thread is too long to read so I may just be stating someone elses opinion. However, like Rufus my own view is that trad is first and foremost for playing and enjoyment. Having said that I don't think we can get too many resources thrown at it whether it be Level 3 institutions, Cultural Centres, Archives, etc. The product is too strong to damage and the more accessible we can make it to society as a whole the better it is for all.
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Bannerman
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Just going back to the original question, I don't think degrees make for better musicians (Joe Cooley, Tommy Peoples, Matt Molloy are all examples of musicians par excellence who I don't think have done third level courses in trad).
As for "a class society" with some musicians this has and always will be there. We all know these musicians who for various reasons (perhaps fleadh success, long time teachers, concert artistes - they'll always find a reason and the degree might just be one other) feel too special to sit down and play with us mere mortals. Thankfully there are many others (musicians such as Kieran Hanrahan, Maurice Lennon, Johnny Connolly - these are just a few from my own personal session experiences) who, like the late Sonny Murray, would have no time for this musical snobbery.
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Bannerman
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Well said Bren I wonder what damage has been done already?
I know the damage done to English music in the past Timing from 5/4 to 4/4 ,Modes to 'straight ' keys ,have academic collectors done or doing the similar thing to Irish music.
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
In what way Dodger give us some detail of your background so I know how to pitch what I write
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
I have a feeling Victorian collectors of Irish music *did* tinker with the tunes to fit them to Classical or at any rate drawing-room conventions. (I'm thinking of one buried in a family cupboard - I think the collector's name was Petrie, but even here I'm not quite sure - haven't looked in there for yonks...)
O'Neill did so to some extent, didn't he? (He was publishing right at the end of the Victorian period, I think.)
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by nicholas
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
"I know the damage done to English music in the past Timing from 5/4 to 4/4 ,Modes to 'straight ' keys ,have academic collectors done or doing the similar thing to Irish music."
Irish music has the benefit of an unbroken living tradition, whereas many of the old English tunes are only known because of the work of the collectors,
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by johndsamuels
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
It doesn't matter what academics do or don't do. Folk music will live on as long as ordinary folks continue to play what they love, because they love it, and play it the way they picked it up from the folks around them. There is nothing wrong with academics. They often serve a valuable purpose in preserving and spreading the music. But again, it is ordinary folks playing music the way they want to, not the way someone told them to, that are at the heart of any folk music.
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
"Thankfully there are many others (musicians such as Kieran Hanrahan, Maurice Lennon, Johnny Connolly - these are just a few from my own personal session experiences) who, like the late Sonny Murray, would have no time for this musical snobbery."
Music degree = musical snobbery? Honestly... is this what you're really saying?
I'd like to ask people on this thread in general: doesn't all-Ireland championships create musical snobbery too?
Personally I think the contests are more likely to, but they seem to also provide a purpose in young people to learn the music and another reason to get together and play. Wouldn't music education at university level do the same?
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
I didn't say "Music degree = musical snobbery" - see first part of my post "As for "a class society" with some musicians this has and always will be there. We all know these musicians who for various reasons (perhaps fleadh success, long time teachers, concert artistes - they'll always find a reason and the degree might just be one other) feel too special to sit down and play with us mere mortals."
My point was that if musicians want to exercise snobbery (and many love to!), they'll find some pretext and I see no reason why a music degree should be singled out from any of the others.
# Posted on November 21st 2009 by Bannerman
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Since I got my PhD I've been thinking of giving up this simple, childish music and moving on to something more challenging.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Since when did you ever keep things simple?
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
"Since I got my PhD I've ..."
Youve got it now? Great, well done.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Linsey Doyle
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Congrats, Dow! I cannot explain it but I seem to be reading your past comments everyday. This time it was, are you ready, Barndances ~ "What I now understand to be a typical "barndance" is like a hornpipe with less notes in and with that 3-note pattern all over the place - not just at the end, like for example Vincent Broderick's "Around The Fairy Fort". Do you play that one? If that's what a barndance is, then I think I've nailed what the difference is. If not, then I'm stumped..."
"Dance of the Honeybees"
July 11th 2004 by Dow
Hope the PhD doesn't keep you away from barndances or too many of Vincent Broderick's tunes. Don't know about childish. But, you know childlike.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Lol!, Barndances seem to played with polkas, which also then become referred to as barndances.
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Earl Cameron
The Tao of Dow
which brings up one of my favourite comments;
'c' I love how you've posted this as a barndance, and I love your setting. Thanks once again. It makes a really crap polka.
June 6th 2007 by Dow
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
are you making this up?
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Actually no to be honest I haven't got it yet, it's still being examined, but when I do you'll know about it cause I'm gonna change my name to "Dr. Dow" and make everyone address me as "Doctor" until I get sick of it. I'll probably milk it for about a week or two
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by Dr. Dow
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
I am looking forward to the Ask Dr Dow problem page
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
I'm Dr Pavlf and I've found that Jacques Lacan ruined trad music for me
# Posted on November 22nd 2009 by pavlf
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
AlB:
>It doesn't matter what academics do or don't do. Folk music >will live on as long as ordinary folks continue to play what >they love, because they love it, and play it the way they picked >it up from the folks around them. There is nothing wrong with >academics. They often serve a valuable purpose in >preserving and spreading the music. But again, it is ordinary >folks playing music the way they want to, not the way >someone told them to, that are at the heart of any folk music
Yes, even the "good guy" academics like Breathnach would have their obsessions like melodeons and accordeons destroying the music. Makes me laugh that the living practitioners of a living tradition were considered to be killing that tradition. . Still a top man Brendan mind, in many ways
- Chris
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Random, thanks for resurrecting this from Dow:
"What I now understand to be a typical "barndance" is like a hornpipe with less notes in and with that 3-note pattern all over the place - not just at the end, like for example Vincent Broderick's "Around The Fairy Fort". Do you play that one? If that's what a barndance is, then I think I've nailed what the difference is. If not, then I'm stumped..."
now then, this just reinforces my prejudice about barndances being crap hornpipes. I admitted to this in another thread (yes, I can go OT on multiple threads it's a natural talent you might say) and asked to be put right. Not too many takers there, and Dow's description captures how I feel about barndances.
So I'm setting myslef up for correction here. Step up and weild the cane <cough>: so to speak.
- Chris
# Posted on November 23rd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
I don't think they are alike at all
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Game on, Chris! Begin posting all the references you have, beginning now.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Ben Steen
~
Have you heard the tune, not the Vincent Broderick tune, the one from Charlie Lennon, recorded by Altan?
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
I think so, what was the name of it again?
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
I was just looking at some barndances in the database
It seems like over half of them are some other type of tune
And a small majority actually could sound like what I a think of as a barndance, and some of them are hornpipes or hornpipe hybrids. Many are polkas, highlands, strathspeys, marches...etc
It seems like folks call most anything a barndance but reels and jigs.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/4577
It's got an Appalachian feel to it.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Provide references, Random?
You seem to be confusing me with someone with some pretentions as to knowing something? Or someone willing to defend a position.
I'm happy to be proved wrong, and think it more than likely that I've got the wrong idea altogether.
- Chris
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Josephine Keegan
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Ben Steen
Barndances as crap polkas, crap hornpipes, etc.
This is the only thing I can come up with. A well played barndance makes you want to dance. Short of that, the only comfort is knowing the tune eventually has to end .
If a tune sounds crap to you don't play the tune. No worries Chris, I never assumed anything about yourself. Cheers.
# Posted on November 24th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Random_notes, would it be possible for you to mail one of those honorary paychecks to me for my honorary PHD?
For several years, I used to play regularly at a local blues jam. Two of the regulars at this blues jam were semi-retired professional musicians who had worked as sidemen/backup musicians to some quite famous entertainers (yes you would recognize the names). Neither one of these men had ever learned how to read music or gone to college or university but I still learned a lot about performing music in front of an audience from working with both of them.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
Whenever someone tries to study music too closely and/or too enthusiastically by taking it apart and putting it under a microscope, it seems to me that they run the risk of damaging it. If you are going to study music, you need to keep a sense of balance and perspective and remember that this music has existed perfectly well on its own long before you decided to try studying it.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
When I was a music major in college, the professors whom I got along with the best were the ones who enjoyed performing in front of an audience. The professors whom I had trouble with were the ones who just wanted to stay safely in the classroom and teach. They were still reluctant to perform even when they were ordered to by the chairman of the music department. If you are going to teach music, you must be able to perform it as well.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic ~ slowed to a crawl
I don't have a music degree, though I did go to a school known for it's jazz program. The town was very lively. Wherever I went I always met musicians. Thinking back, it wasn't a stodgy academic environment. People were always getting together to play music.
I can appreciate music as a living & breathing creature. Too much examination removes ephemeral experiences & blunts the nuances. This is not to say university should have nothing to do with traditional music. Just take care. So, even though academia can distort something we love, it is conceivable traditional musicians & university musicians can session together. They do, ya' know.
Laurence, if you give me the Chancellor's name I will ask why you have not yet been paid. They may be waiting for back tuition.
# Posted on November 25th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
It has been so long since I graduated that I can't remember the Chancellor's name. Also, I shouldn't owe any back tuition or front tuition because it has been quite a few years since I made the last payment on my student loans.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Is trad music becoming too academic
One of the assistant jazz instructors (who played saxophone) at the college where I was a music major would sometimes sit in at the blues jam. This unfortunate person had the dubious pleasure of reading through and grading some of my concert and recital reports which I had to write while I was a music major in college.
# Posted on November 26th 2009 by fauxcelt