Prompted by the Helicore discussion, I was wondering how many people always use steel core strings on their fiddle? Are there advantages? - flexibility, durability, brightness of tone etc. Do professional players tend to use them? It seems most "performers" have a full set of fine adjusters. Is this because they rely on steel strings, perform under lights, need stability of tuning etc? Do you need fine adjusters on all four strings if you use, say, Helicores or Chromacors, and possibly a flattened bridge? I did try Helicores once but my fiddle wasn't set up very well at that time and I found them a bit quiet. I've got Evah's on it at the moment with one adjuster. Should be due for a change soon.
I know your average classical player wouldn't be seen dead with a full set of fine adjusters. But I suppose most fiddle players appearing before a paying audience never seem to tune from the pegs. There's bound to be exceptions though.
I suppose you adjust to whatever you stick with. I’ve used Prim mediums for over thirty years and I don’t see a change coming. I occasionally try something else, but wind up back with the Prims. One of the things I like about steel-core strings is that I can take advantage of a wider bowing area on the strings. Maybe it’s just me, but with the synth-cores I can’t get a decent sound near the end of the fingerboard. Maybe I never gave them a good chance.
Been using Thomastik Präzision strings for over a decade now, and can't be buggered to even consider anything else.
I find the response time of steel-cored strings to be immediate, although unforgiving. In order to avoid letting the E string whistle, I use Hill's rosin for cello.
Steel strings are much more popular in traditional music than they are in classical music. They tend to offer much better responsiveness, which leads to crisper ornamentation and clearer rhythm, at the expense of a harsher (and more focused) tone quality.
Helicores are steel strings with a layer of damping resin inside the wrapping, intended to mellow out the harsher qualities of steel strings.
A healthy majority of the Irish fiddle players I know use steel strings of one sort or another. Helicore, Prim, and Spirocore seem to be the brands of choice for steel strings. Chromocore strings (last I heard) were popular in Cape Breton.
As for tuning, your mileage may vary. There's no good reason not to have fine tuners on your fiddle, steel strings or no (apparently classical violists are starting to go with fine tuners these days), but you certainly don't *need* them. Fine tuners don't noticeably affect the tone of the instrument, and they make tuning easier.
As far as i know, flattening the bridge serves an entirely different purpose--mainly to allow for easier chording, which isn't really an issue in Irish music.
That's very interesting Georgi. I see Natalie MacMaster endorses Chromcor on the Pirastro website. Perhaps I'll sound like her if I get some (in my wildest dreams!)
The reason people don't use fine tuners with synthetic or gut strings is that they are more elastic than steel, so you have to 'wind in' more length for a given pitch change. If you do this with tailpiece adjusters you are constantly pulling the string across the bridge each time you retune, so it tends to fray the string and saw into the bridge.
It certainly is a problem with gut strings, but modern synthetics are so stable that the tuning movement is minimal. I've been using Dominants with fine tuners for years.
With regard to flattened bridges, I agree with Geogi that it is pointless, and will just make playing single strings cleanly harder. However, if you use steel strings you can set the action on all four strings lower - to about 4.5mm on the G, 3mm on the E (as opposed to 5.5/3.5 with synthetics) which makes the fast stuff a bit easier.
I recently tried dominant strings as i have heard that they are synthetic and comparable to gut. To my surprise I found that they were very metallic sounding and super bright... people told me i had to break them in... i played them for four 45 minute sets at one gig, as well as several hours after that and they didnt lose their nasally screechiness... i took them off my fiddle and just recently put them on again and they still sounded stiff and harsh and metallic... never again will i use them... thank heaven for Jargars is all I can say... I still someday want to try true gut, but I have a hard time believing that dominants are anything like a true gut string would be
The cello rosin is stickier than the regular stuff you get for fiddle; it makes more of a mess below the strings (fine white powder known as "Pepsi" that makes you play faster), but you end up with an attack on the note that's dead on.
The open E, regardless of maker, has a tendency to screech if you jump to it from another string, so having a good grip between sting and mesh (through cello rosin) makes the whole process easier.
The main trouble with adding fine adjusters is that they shorten the string length between bridge and tailpiece. If you use a tailpiece with in-built tuners that problem doesn't arise, and it they certainly make life easier.
I have noticed my fine tuners cannot be used to tune a string more than a tiny fraction of a step without affecting tone quality. So I mostly use pegs. If you get used to the pegs they are not that bad, and there are ways of actually taking care of pegs so they work well for tuning. But Pegs never seem to want to move just that little bit farther to bring the note up to perfect, and that's what fine tuners are for.
For me, Obligatos come closest to gut, but with the advantages that a good synthetic has, like stability and long life. They project well and have an inherent gut-like richness of tone that I haven't really found in other synthetics. The sets I've used over the years have settled in tuning-wise in a day or so, but like most new strings they do require a few more days for the tone to mature.
Other synthetics worth trying are Visions and Zyex. Zyex, in particular, have a reputation for stability, and I think they have a more focused tone than the Visions.
I've long given up Helicors (they don't really work for me on the fiddle, so it's probably personal preference), but on the cello they're a completely different story - which goes to show that string design doesn't necessarily transfer well between violin and cello.
Steel vs synthetic I think is really all about personal preference, how something sounds under the ear vs out into the room varies as well, so I recommend messing around a little. You can put on a fine tuner for 5 bucks or less to your A, and mess about with a steel A, before commiting to a plastic tailpiece full of fine tuners if wanting to keep costs down while muddling around with your decision.
I have one fiddle with a plastic tail piece full of fine tuners, and one with a standard tailpiece with a fine tuner for my A so I can use steel. Like them both.
The reason I switched my louder fiddle to the plastic tailpiece is I like it best in sessions, and the sessions can run a little sharp or be spot on 440, so its just a matter of speed and ease of use... don't want to miss out on that favorite hornpipe they might be playing when I walk in the door
Lazy how long do a set of obligatos remain stable for you? I'm cost conscious, and like the visions but it sounds like you have experienced how they just go to complete poo when they are done.... they're done... must keep spare strings in the case if using them... suddenly not such a bargain. So... back to my Q about life span of obligatos.. and about how many hours a week total playing do you put on them... if you don't mind the personal Q.
An ideal tuning solution would be to use geared tuning pegs instead of tail piece adjusters. The types being produced today look just like traditional pegs (forget the geared tuning of guitars and banjos), and their installation is completely reversible.
Imagine nonchalantly tuning a steel E from the peg with no problems!
Btw (1), for the avoidance of doubt, the classical soloist I referred to a few posts up uses traditional pegs, with a fine tuner for the E.
Btw (2), I don't use them myself but I might consider a set for the cello.
I used to use Chromcor, then the music shop that got them in for me closed down and I couldn't get them locally anymore ... did a flit around the Zyex, Helicores, Obligatos etc via the internet, but ended up with Piranito that they had in stock in the one remaining local music shop (what they use in the local string orchestra). Then last time I was in the shop they had one set of Chomcors which I fell on hungrily. They are not easy to get via the internet for some reason or other. My issue with Zyex was the thickness of the strings ... kindda like trying to play a tennis racquet. Went off them quite quickly. My old fiddle (that I don't seem to be using at the moment) was strung with Tonica by a luthier. I like the Chromcor.
I've been using the Chromcore A for about a year with various other
D, G and E strings. Only this A (and the Spirocore A) survive longer
than 6 weeks for me.
Same here Hup, the A string is always the first string ta go for me too. Thinking back on it, the synthetic strings are less temperature sensitive than the steel core ... which is probably why I went that way when I did. If you tune in the heat here you are likely to find the pegs unwound when you come to play next (well that's happened a few times to me). Its best to tune cool and fine tune up as the fiddle gets warmer, than the other way round ... or if you're going to be playing in airconditioned comfort, allow the fiddle to cool down before you tune. I recon Chromcors require fine tuning, if that's any help to you RichardB?
The Merry Highlander, above, might be the only person I've heard say that (steel) Jargar strings sound less "metallic" than synthetic dominants. Your mileage may vary, but it doesn't usually vary quite that much (not that I'm implying he/she is wrong... just that I'm surprised in the inverted characteristics he/she experienced).
At any rate, I tried all sorts of different strings for the better part of a year, and my conclusion was: Nothing's perfect. You have to figure out how to make use of what you have, whatever that might be.
That said, my own preference is now split between heavy-tension helicores for session playing, or Tonicas for recording and gigs in quieter rooms...
If you have good (and I almost said decent) but good fitting pegs then you shouldn't have any problems - only need a fine tuner on the E. Just takes practice and alittle patience.
Tune from low then up has always been my experience.
I use Helicores and a Prim E - I've tried mixes of synthetic gut and steel, but in general, I like to push my strings, and I like to feel them pushing back, if you know what I mean?
Lots of helpful information - thanks everyone. I've got 3 old fiddles - two German and one French (not talking high value here) and I've tried a lot of different strings . The French one has a dark, woody tone that might benefit from a set of Chromcors. One of the German ones has a fairly strident tone even with Obligatos on it, so I don't think I would put metal strings on that one. The other old German one is kept at my place of work for lunchtime practice (in a store room far away from sensitive ears!) and that has Warchal strings on it which suit it really well - long lasting and never seem to need retuning.
That's the first time I've ever heard someone talking about "tuning from the pegs" I've played for 43 years and ALWAYS tune from the pegs. Even my E string
Well Adam, I do tune from the pegs though I have an adjuster on the E. Most people I see reach first for the adjusters, and I was prompted to ask whether this was the norm for users of steel strings. I admire players who can swoop up to pitch with a deft turn of the peg. I can't do it with great confidence - I'll keep working on it, though I'll be pushing up daisies before I reach 43 years fiddle experience!
those geared pegs make the neck incredibly heavy. I used fine tuners with synthetic strings for years - now I use steel strings with a bridge that's really meant for synthetic. For my purposes, none of it matters - except the fine tuners since all my fiddles have krap pegs. Get the tailpiece with the fine tuners built in though
I believe the current manufacturers of geared pegs are aware of a possible weight problem (even if the problem lies only in the mind of the player) and are using light-weight alloys and other materials to address it. Don't forget that a viola is longer and heavier than a fiddle; violists survive.
No weight problem for the cello - that instrument is held in a completely different manner to the fiddle.
if you're just playing 15 minutes a day, then weight probably isn't an issue, but if you want to waste a Saturday playing major key hornpipes, then it probably doesn't matter if you're in concert pitch anyway
Hmmm, I hadn't thought about the extra bit of weight. That could affect the sound. Not necessarily a bad thng. Adding weight to a guitar's peghead can improve the sustain.
In practical terms any increase in weight at the peg end will be more than balanced by the loss of weight at the tailpiece end due to the absence of micro-adjusters. We're not talking about significant weights here.
Anyway, there is variation in pegbox/scroll/neck weight between fiddles. For instance, my modern fiddle has an obviously much thicker neck and clunkier pegbox and scroll than my 18th century fiddle. The modern one is no less comfortable to hold and play than the older one, which must be 5-10% lighter overall.
Bob, according to the manufacturers the geared peg installation is completely reversible. There's plenty of detail on their web pages. Although an installation DVD is provided by one of the makers the implication is that the customer is advised to have the job done by a luthier.
Reverting to my guess at a 5%-10% weight difference between my fiddles, I've now weighed them without chinrests (about 25 gm each):
modern (Jay Haide) 425 gm
old fiddle 390 gm
My guess was reasonable.
Both fiddles have a single micrometer adjuster for the E. The other strings are synthetics. The Jay Haide has a plain Wittner tailpiece (no integral adjusters), and the old fiddle an old hardwood tailpiece.
Interestingly, the old fiddle is slightly larger than the Jay Haide:
body length: old: 360mm JH: 353mm
width of lower bout: old: 214mm JH: 206mm
thickness: old: 43mm JH: 40mm
I was talking about older mechanical pegs - I'd never seen the knilling perfection pegs before. interesting. sounds like you have to superglue them in though
A quote from the Perfection Peg website:
"The pegs have a fine thread on the shank. Treble-side pegs have a left-hand thread, while the bass-side pegs have a right-hand thread.
The pegs are installed on the instrument by screwing them into the peg holes.
The direction of rotation when screwing the pegs is the same direction used when loosening the strings."
The Perfection website has an illustrated talk-through of the installation procedure. I think it is fairly obvious that it needs to be done by a person who is already skilled in fitting pegs.
A quote from the Pegheds website:
"PEGHEDS™ have a brake mechanism with variable friction. Push in to increase resistance, pull out to decrease; exactly like a traditional wood peg.
PEGHEDS™ install in the scroll in a similar manner as traditional wood pegs, using a standard reamer. There are no disfiguring holes to drill. No screws are required for installation.
PEGHEDS™ can be removed easily and traditional pegs fitted in their place, if desired."
As with Perfection Pegs, the services of a skilled violin repairer are recommended.
Neither website mentions superglue, epoxy resins or other similar adhesives, which have no place anywhere near a fiddle or cello.
My pegs are in bad shape and, since I need to have something done about that, I might go ahead with some geared pegs. I'll report back if I do it. And, of course, blame lazyhound if it doesn't work out.
Steel fiddle strings?
Steel fiddle strings?
Prompted by the Helicore discussion, I was wondering how many people always use steel core strings on their fiddle? Are there advantages? - flexibility, durability, brightness of tone etc. Do professional players tend to use them? It seems most "performers" have a full set of fine adjusters. Is this because they rely on steel strings, perform under lights, need stability of tuning etc? Do you need fine adjusters on all four strings if you use, say, Helicores or Chromacors, and possibly a flattened bridge? I did try Helicores once but my fiddle wasn't set up very well at that time and I found them a bit quiet. I've got Evah's on it at the moment with one adjuster. Should be due for a change soon.
# Posted on November 16th 2009 by RichardB
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
I know a classical soloist who uses helicores, which he tunes from the pegs. Needless to say, those pegs are very well set up!
# Posted on November 16th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
I know your average classical player wouldn't be seen dead with a full set of fine adjusters. But I suppose most fiddle players appearing before a paying audience never seem to tune from the pegs. There's bound to be exceptions though.
# Posted on November 16th 2009 by RichardB
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
I suppose you adjust to whatever you stick with. I’ve used Prim mediums for over thirty years and I don’t see a change coming. I occasionally try something else, but wind up back with the Prims. One of the things I like about steel-core strings is that I can take advantage of a wider bowing area on the strings. Maybe it’s just me, but with the synth-cores I can’t get a decent sound near the end of the fingerboard. Maybe I never gave them a good chance.
# Posted on November 16th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
fiddlers i've played with over the years have even used my spare acoustic guitar steel strings to get through a gig, always a stop gap though
# Posted on November 16th 2009 by lisaniska
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
Been using Thomastik Präzision strings for over a decade now, and can't be buggered to even consider anything else.
I find the response time of steel-cored strings to be immediate, although unforgiving. In order to avoid letting the E string whistle, I use Hill's rosin for cello.
# Posted on November 16th 2009 by Fanning
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
Steel strings are much more popular in traditional music than they are in classical music. They tend to offer much better responsiveness, which leads to crisper ornamentation and clearer rhythm, at the expense of a harsher (and more focused) tone quality.
Helicores are steel strings with a layer of damping resin inside the wrapping, intended to mellow out the harsher qualities of steel strings.
A healthy majority of the Irish fiddle players I know use steel strings of one sort or another. Helicore, Prim, and Spirocore seem to be the brands of choice for steel strings. Chromocore strings (last I heard) were popular in Cape Breton.
As for tuning, your mileage may vary. There's no good reason not to have fine tuners on your fiddle, steel strings or no (apparently classical violists are starting to go with fine tuners these days), but you certainly don't *need* them. Fine tuners don't noticeably affect the tone of the instrument, and they make tuning easier.
As far as i know, flattening the bridge serves an entirely different purpose--mainly to allow for easier chording, which isn't really an issue in Irish music.
# Posted on November 16th 2009 by Georgi
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
That's very interesting Georgi. I see Natalie MacMaster endorses Chromcor on the Pirastro website. Perhaps I'll sound like her if I get some (in my wildest dreams!)
# Posted on November 16th 2009 by RichardB
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
The reason people don't use fine tuners with synthetic or gut strings is that they are more elastic than steel, so you have to 'wind in' more length for a given pitch change. If you do this with tailpiece adjusters you are constantly pulling the string across the bridge each time you retune, so it tends to fray the string and saw into the bridge.
It certainly is a problem with gut strings, but modern synthetics are so stable that the tuning movement is minimal. I've been using Dominants with fine tuners for years.
With regard to flattened bridges, I agree with Geogi that it is pointless, and will just make playing single strings cleanly harder. However, if you use steel strings you can set the action on all four strings lower - to about 4.5mm on the G, 3mm on the E (as opposed to 5.5/3.5 with synthetics) which makes the fast stuff a bit easier.
# Posted on November 16th 2009 by skreech
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
Fanning: "In order to avoid letting the E string whistle, I use Hill's rosin for cello."
How is the cello rosin different?
# Posted on November 16th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
Gives a deeper sound, about an octave and a half lower
# Posted on November 16th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
Groan...
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
I recently tried dominant strings as i have heard that they are synthetic and comparable to gut. To my surprise I found that they were very metallic sounding and super bright... people told me i had to break them in... i played them for four 45 minute sets at one gig, as well as several hours after that and they didnt lose their nasally screechiness... i took them off my fiddle and just recently put them on again and they still sounded stiff and harsh and metallic... never again will i use them... thank heaven for Jargars is all I can say... I still someday want to try true gut, but I have a hard time believing that dominants are anything like a true gut string would be
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
Hi Bob,
The cello rosin is stickier than the regular stuff you get for fiddle; it makes more of a mess below the strings (fine white powder known as "Pepsi" that makes you play faster), but you end up with an attack on the note that's dead on.
The open E, regardless of maker, has a tendency to screech if you jump to it from another string, so having a good grip between sting and mesh (through cello rosin) makes the whole process easier.
It's my way of expressing a form of laziness.
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by Fanning
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
The main trouble with adding fine adjusters is that they shorten the string length between bridge and tailpiece. If you use a tailpiece with in-built tuners that problem doesn't arise, and it they certainly make life easier.
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by gam
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
I have noticed my fine tuners cannot be used to tune a string more than a tiny fraction of a step without affecting tone quality. So I mostly use pegs. If you get used to the pegs they are not that bad, and there are ways of actually taking care of pegs so they work well for tuning. But Pegs never seem to want to move just that little bit farther to bring the note up to perfect, and that's what fine tuners are for.
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
For me, Obligatos come closest to gut, but with the advantages that a good synthetic has, like stability and long life. They project well and have an inherent gut-like richness of tone that I haven't really found in other synthetics. The sets I've used over the years have settled in tuning-wise in a day or so, but like most new strings they do require a few more days for the tone to mature.
Other synthetics worth trying are Visions and Zyex. Zyex, in particular, have a reputation for stability, and I think they have a more focused tone than the Visions.
I've long given up Helicors (they don't really work for me on the fiddle, so it's probably personal preference), but on the cello they're a completely different story - which goes to show that string design doesn't necessarily transfer well between violin and cello.
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
Steel vs synthetic I think is really all about personal preference, how something sounds under the ear vs out into the room varies as well, so I recommend messing around a little. You can put on a fine tuner for 5 bucks or less to your A, and mess about with a steel A, before commiting to a plastic tailpiece full of fine tuners if wanting to keep costs down while muddling around with your decision.
I have one fiddle with a plastic tail piece full of fine tuners, and one with a standard tailpiece with a fine tuner for my A so I can use steel. Like them both.
The reason I switched my louder fiddle to the plastic tailpiece is I like it best in sessions, and the sessions can run a little sharp or be spot on 440, so its just a matter of speed and ease of use... don't want to miss out on that favorite hornpipe they might be playing when I walk in the door
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
Lazy how long do a set of obligatos remain stable for you? I'm cost conscious, and like the visions but it sounds like you have experienced how they just go to complete poo when they are done.... they're done... must keep spare strings in the case if using them... suddenly not such a bargain. So... back to my Q about life span of obligatos.. and about how many hours a week total playing do you put on them... if you don't mind the personal Q.
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
An ideal tuning solution would be to use geared tuning pegs instead of tail piece adjusters. The types being produced today look just like traditional pegs (forget the geared tuning of guitars and banjos), and their installation is completely reversible.
Imagine nonchalantly tuning a steel E from the peg with no problems!
Perfection Pegs http://www.perfectionpegs.twofold.com.au/
Pegheds http://pegheds.com/
Btw (1), for the avoidance of doubt, the classical soloist I referred to a few posts up uses traditional pegs, with a fine tuner for the E.
Btw (2), I don't use them myself but I might consider a set for the cello.
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
I used to use Chromcor, then the music shop that got them in for me closed down and I couldn't get them locally anymore ... did a flit around the Zyex, Helicores, Obligatos etc via the internet, but ended up with Piranito that they had in stock in the one remaining local music shop (what they use in the local string orchestra). Then last time I was in the shop they had one set of Chomcors which I fell on hungrily. They are not easy to get via the internet for some reason or other. My issue with Zyex was the thickness of the strings ... kindda like trying to play a tennis racquet. Went off them quite quickly. My old fiddle (that I don't seem to be using at the moment) was strung with Tonica by a luthier. I like the Chromcor.
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by Clear Drops
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
I've been using the Chromcore A for about a year with various other
D, G and E strings. Only this A (and the Spirocore A) survive longer
than 6 weeks for me.
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by Hup
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
Same here Hup, the A string is always the first string ta go for me too. Thinking back on it, the synthetic strings are less temperature sensitive than the steel core ... which is probably why I went that way when I did. If you tune in the heat here you are likely to find the pegs unwound when you come to play next (well that's happened a few times to me). Its best to tune cool and fine tune up as the fiddle gets warmer, than the other way round ... or if you're going to be playing in airconditioned comfort, allow the fiddle to cool down before you tune. I recon Chromcors require fine tuning, if that's any help to you RichardB?
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by Clear Drops
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
The Merry Highlander, above, might be the only person I've heard say that (steel) Jargar strings sound less "metallic" than synthetic dominants. Your mileage may vary, but it doesn't usually vary quite that much (not that I'm implying he/she is wrong... just that I'm surprised in the inverted characteristics he/she experienced).
At any rate, I tried all sorts of different strings for the better part of a year, and my conclusion was: Nothing's perfect. You have to figure out how to make use of what you have, whatever that might be.
That said, my own preference is now split between heavy-tension helicores for session playing, or Tonicas for recording and gigs in quieter rooms...
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by Georgi
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
If you have good (and I almost said decent) but good fitting pegs then you shouldn't have any problems - only need a fine tuner on the E. Just takes practice and alittle patience.
Tune from low then up has always been my experience.
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by bikejen
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
I use Helicores and a Prim E - I've tried mixes of synthetic gut and steel, but in general, I like to push my strings, and I like to feel them pushing back, if you know what I mean?
--Danjo
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by Danjo
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
Lots of helpful information - thanks everyone. I've got 3 old fiddles - two German and one French (not talking high value here) and I've tried a lot of different strings . The French one has a dark, woody tone that might benefit from a set of Chromcors. One of the German ones has a fairly strident tone even with Obligatos on it, so I don't think I would put metal strings on that one. The other old German one is kept at my place of work for lunchtime practice (in a store room far away from sensitive ears!) and that has Warchal strings on it which suit it really well - long lasting and never seem to need retuning.
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by RichardB
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
That's the first time I've ever heard someone talking about "tuning from the pegs" I've played for 43 years and ALWAYS tune from the pegs. Even my E string
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by celticagent
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
Well Adam, I do tune from the pegs though I have an adjuster on the E. Most people I see reach first for the adjusters, and I was prompted to ask whether this was the norm for users of steel strings. I admire players who can swoop up to pitch with a deft turn of the peg. I can't do it with great confidence - I'll keep working on it, though I'll be pushing up daisies before I reach 43 years fiddle experience!
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by RichardB
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
All this talk of Chromcor, and Ive never tried em'! Just noticed my current set of Visions on Fiddle "B" are sounding a little old....
# Posted on November 17th 2009 by SandyBottoms
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
Anybody here using those geared tuning pegs?
# Posted on November 19th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
those geared pegs make the neck incredibly heavy. I used fine tuners with synthetic strings for years - now I use steel strings with a bridge that's really meant for synthetic. For my purposes, none of it matters - except the fine tuners since all my fiddles have krap pegs. Get the tailpiece with the fine tuners built in though
# Posted on November 19th 2009 by airport
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
I believe the current manufacturers of geared pegs are aware of a possible weight problem (even if the problem lies only in the mind of the player) and are using light-weight alloys and other materials to address it. Don't forget that a viola is longer and heavier than a fiddle; violists survive.
No weight problem for the cello - that instrument is held in a completely different manner to the fiddle.
# Posted on November 19th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
if you're just playing 15 minutes a day, then weight probably isn't an issue, but if you want to waste a Saturday playing major key hornpipes, then it probably doesn't matter if you're in concert pitch anyway
# Posted on November 19th 2009 by airport
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
Hmmm, I hadn't thought about the extra bit of weight. That could affect the sound. Not necessarily a bad thng. Adding weight to a guitar's peghead can improve the sustain.
# Posted on November 19th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
In practical terms any increase in weight at the peg end will be more than balanced by the loss of weight at the tailpiece end due to the absence of micro-adjusters. We're not talking about significant weights here.
Anyway, there is variation in pegbox/scroll/neck weight between fiddles. For instance, my modern fiddle has an obviously much thicker neck and clunkier pegbox and scroll than my 18th century fiddle. The modern one is no less comfortable to hold and play than the older one, which must be 5-10% lighter overall.
# Posted on November 19th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
Is the geared peg makeover a reversible operation?
# Posted on November 19th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
Bob, according to the manufacturers the geared peg installation is completely reversible. There's plenty of detail on their web pages. Although an installation DVD is provided by one of the makers the implication is that the customer is advised to have the job done by a luthier.
Reverting to my guess at a 5%-10% weight difference between my fiddles, I've now weighed them without chinrests (about 25 gm each):
modern (Jay Haide) 425 gm
old fiddle 390 gm
My guess was reasonable.
Both fiddles have a single micrometer adjuster for the E. The other strings are synthetics. The Jay Haide has a plain Wittner tailpiece (no integral adjusters), and the old fiddle an old hardwood tailpiece.
Interestingly, the old fiddle is slightly larger than the Jay Haide:
body length: old: 360mm JH: 353mm
width of lower bout: old: 214mm JH: 206mm
thickness: old: 43mm JH: 40mm
# Posted on November 19th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
I was talking about older mechanical pegs - I'd never seen the knilling perfection pegs before. interesting. sounds like you have to superglue them in though
# Posted on November 19th 2009 by airport
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
A quote from the Perfection Peg website:
"The pegs have a fine thread on the shank. Treble-side pegs have a left-hand thread, while the bass-side pegs have a right-hand thread.
The pegs are installed on the instrument by screwing them into the peg holes.
The direction of rotation when screwing the pegs is the same direction used when loosening the strings."
The Perfection website has an illustrated talk-through of the installation procedure. I think it is fairly obvious that it needs to be done by a person who is already skilled in fitting pegs.
A quote from the Pegheds website:
"PEGHEDS™ have a brake mechanism with variable friction. Push in to increase resistance, pull out to decrease; exactly like a traditional wood peg.
PEGHEDS™ install in the scroll in a similar manner as traditional wood pegs, using a standard reamer. There are no disfiguring holes to drill. No screws are required for installation.
PEGHEDS™ can be removed easily and traditional pegs fitted in their place, if desired."
As with Perfection Pegs, the services of a skilled violin repairer are recommended.
Neither website mentions superglue, epoxy resins or other similar adhesives, which have no place anywhere near a fiddle or cello.
# Posted on November 19th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
fine but you still need a full moon, a shaman, and a note from your mother
# Posted on November 19th 2009 by airport
Re: Steel fiddle strings?
My pegs are in bad shape and, since I need to have something done about that, I might go ahead with some geared pegs. I'll report back if I do it. And, of course, blame lazyhound if it doesn't work out.
# Posted on November 19th 2009 by Bob himself