well.....the quote from the memoir, if that is the allusion here, i believe is worded AN all-ireland win, or something like that. it was unclear to this reader whether he meant "THE" all-ireland, or AN all-ireland, on a local or regional level....you can certainly access online the box winners of "THE" big casino since its beginning if you want to check, i can't remember where, but it's out there....
My relatives used to speak about kieran kelly All Ireland Champion also Joe Burke and Aggie White. Was it some other competition then that McMahon won. Its not easy to understand. Ive been told that all accordion players describe themselves as All Ireland Champions.That"s not easy to understand either.
While I can't answer the original question perhaps I can fill in some blanks. This will be from memory while I'm waiting for a plane so forgive any gaps or errors but it'll give you the gist.
The route to the All Ireland starts at the local level, in Ireland that means county e.g. County Kerry, in Britain that means regional e.g. Midlands Region. The prizewinners (typically first and second place) in each competition (for example Under 12 flute slow air) go through to the next round, in Ireland that's the Provincial e.g. Munster, in Britain it's the All Britain. There the first two in each competition usually go though to the All Ireland. There's a similar structure in the US.
Most competitions are by age (Under 12, 12-15, 15-18 and Senior) and instrument. There are competitions for all instruments commonly found in trad: pipes, war pipes, fiddle, flute, whistle, 2 row box, melodeon, piano accordion, concertina, harp, banjo, mandolin, mouth organ, piano, bodhrán, céilí band drums, accompaniment, and miscellaneous. Not to forget lilting and whistling (with the lips!). So an All Ireland winner could be for U12 fiddle, 12-15 fiddle, 15-18 fiddle or senior fiddle (Wikipedia only informally tracks the Senior titles). For fiddle, pipes, flute, and whistle there are also slow air competitions, again organised by age. There are also competitions for duets, trios, and céilí bands (again by split into age categories). Oh and there's also various grúpaí ceoi competitions. There's solo singing (organised by language, sex, and age), song writing, Irish conversation and set dancing. I think that's it!
As you can see, it's the large number of competitions that generates the seeming vast number of individuals who are All Ireland winners. Hence the remark about accordion players! And those individuals claiming large numbers of titles tend to include (quite properly) their underage wins. It's also worth noting that it's pretty common in any given year for the same musician to win say the fiddle and fiddle slow air titles for their age group.
My vague recollection is that Tony won the All Ireland in a duet, or perhaps trio. Some one out there will know.
This isn't meant as a dig so I'm not expecting to be attacked, but while I know not all trad lovers are fans of Comhaltas, am I alone in finding it curious that the posters above me know so little about the fleadh cheoil structure? Or is this another core - periphery distinction? Just wondering.
The two row button accordion is not my favourite instrument but it is a tool used many good musicians. Charlie Piggot treats it with suspicion but plays it very nicely. I have never heard that Tony McMahon won an All Ireland and Im curious.
He wrote in his memoir excerpt that he came to Dublin at eighteen and had been an all-Ireland winner so he probably had won in a junior, not senior, competition. Old records of junior competitions are hard to find.
I think I remember reading that Joe Burke himself was pipped in competition by Mr. McMahon, back in the 1950s... maybe that was a junior level All-Ireland. May have read this in "Blooming Meadows" by Fintan Vallely and Charlie Piggot, a very interesting book.
the focus on box players in the confusion over "an" all-ireland versus "the" all-ireland is a red herring. the fact is that whether your win is local, regional, or "world," provided that it is in a competition under the auspices of CCE's "All-Ireland" terminology, and provided that you choose your wording very carefully so as not to be over-grandiosing yourself, you can say on your CD bio or your myspace bio, that you are "an all-ireland" winner, or have won "an all-ireland." and people who are informed about this, know how to read that wording. i see bios all the time by people who have not won the Big Casino, to the effect of, so and so is a multiple all-ireland winner or something like that. they are telling the truth, but it may and probably does mean, local or regional. this is different from, "so and so was the winner of the senior (or junior or whatever age category) world all-ireland title," or whatever. check out the wording in bios of people like liz carroll or martin hayes. it is subtly different from mr. macmahon's wording in the JMI memoir excerpt. and when reading that memoir excerpt, i just assumed that it was a local or regional win.
come to think of it, it is kind of like the subtle yet significant distinction between, i got this tune from so-and-so, versus, i got this tune from "the playing of" so-and-so. if you got the tune from a recording or a broadcast or at a concert, "from the playing of" would be the more ethical and accurate way to go. you see this one all the time on liner notes. it usually means the person got it from a record.
"i got it from so and so," better put as "was given to me by so-and-so," or, "learned from so-and-so in a workshop" means the player actually gave it to you.
ceemonster, in over forty years around the scene, competing, spectating, adjudicating and organising fleadhs I've never come across someone use the phrase ""All Ireland" winner" or similar to mean anything other than they took first place at THE All Ireland fleadh. Now obviously I can't say it doesn't happen but surely nobody in their right mind would try to pass off a County or Provincial win as AN All Ireland, the trad scene being so small that false claims are found out sooner or later. I can't help but think that you're being unduly cynical but perhaps I'm naive.
i'm not being cynical----i was saying that people can say that and be telling the truth so long as they watch their wording, and that they indeed do so. i remember once hearing a gorgeous musician then living in my city who had a note about an all-ireland win on their bio in their "secondary" instrument, speak self-deprecatingly about their prowess that instrument, and when i said, oh, but you won an aa, the person laughed and said, "anyone can have an aa win, depends on what level you won it at." now, this individual was being modest, because they are lovely on their "secondary" instrument, but the point is, this was someone far more a member of the small trad scene and the fleadh scene than i, who was putting me up to speed about this....
One of the children I teach has won over twenty medals at the county fleadh and a half dozen at the provincial so she makes it through to the All Ireland most years but she's never won. Are you be really saying that there's a phrase she could use that would be truthful but still imply that she's won an All Ireland when she hasn't? If so, what is it?
As for your example, I can't help but think you're reading far too much into a passing remark. A phrase such as " Sure anyone can win an All Ireland" is a pretty stock response from a adult being complemented on a win, especially a junior win. As for "depends on what level you won it at" surely he/she was referring to the age group; I'm pretty certain I've never heard anyone in the States, Britain or here refer to county or provincial fleadhs as "levels" to the All Ireland. A county or provincial win stands on its own merits.
No matter. The only people I've heard make an undue fuss over titles are Americans but really it means no more than you're a good musician who had luck on your side that year. Anyone who attends county and provincial fleadhs know that luck as much as musicianship often determines who gets to the All Ireland: competitors have off-days, they have days they're on good form, they come up against an adjudicator that takes against or takes to their style and setting, their closest rival competes or decides not to compete, they compete in a competition with few, if any other, entrants or with many.
"He was an All Ireland Champion Accordion Player you know"
It's a lie I tell ya...I never won an All Ireland. I was in the pub the day it was on! No..I don't mean you, I mean that other box player
It's a sort of a 'Lloyd George knew my father' syndrome that has haunted me all my accordion playing life.
.
It's an 'Irish Thing' mostly used by a relative or friend of a button accordion player to put other accordion players in their place.
well, the modest person i mentioned had not won "the" aa, but they DID have a note in their bio saying they were an aa winner or an aa champion or some such. and my point is that tony macmahon is NOT claiming something he has no right to claim, nor was this person---it's all in your wording. personally, i find the whole cce/aa obsession (and yes, it does seem to cluster in the box category) asinine.
So my pupil can truthfully call themselves All Ireland winner or champion even though all they've done is qualified for the All Ireland (though no mean achievement in itself)? What complete nonsense!
Sorry ceemonster I'm with PJD. You could no more say you were "An Ireland winner" under the circumstances you describe than you could say your local pub team won the F.A. cup 'cos they made it though the first round of games before.
It is patently ridiculous and either dishonest or delusional) to claim otherwise. I'd like to think you are running a subtle wind up here.
When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
When did Tony McMahon win the All Ireland. Was it 1960.
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by Lord Gordan
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
well.....the quote from the memoir, if that is the allusion here, i believe is worded AN all-ireland win, or something like that. it was unclear to this reader whether he meant "THE" all-ireland, or AN all-ireland, on a local or regional level....you can certainly access online the box winners of "THE" big casino since its beginning if you want to check, i can't remember where, but it's out there....
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by ceemonster
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
apparently it wasn't "THE" all-Ireland:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_All-Ireland_Fleadh_champions#Button_Accordion_.28Bosca_Cheoil.29
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by airport
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
My relatives used to speak about kieran kelly All Ireland Champion also Joe Burke and Aggie White. Was it some other competition then that McMahon won. Its not easy to understand. Ive been told that all accordion players describe themselves as All Ireland Champions.That"s not easy to understand either.
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by Lord Gordan
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
What are you trying to say there, Mr SPUDS?
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by Martin_BC
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
While I can't answer the original question perhaps I can fill in some blanks. This will be from memory while I'm waiting for a plane so forgive any gaps or errors but it'll give you the gist.
The route to the All Ireland starts at the local level, in Ireland that means county e.g. County Kerry, in Britain that means regional e.g. Midlands Region. The prizewinners (typically first and second place) in each competition (for example Under 12 flute slow air) go through to the next round, in Ireland that's the Provincial e.g. Munster, in Britain it's the All Britain. There the first two in each competition usually go though to the All Ireland. There's a similar structure in the US.
Most competitions are by age (Under 12, 12-15, 15-18 and Senior) and instrument. There are competitions for all instruments commonly found in trad: pipes, war pipes, fiddle, flute, whistle, 2 row box, melodeon, piano accordion, concertina, harp, banjo, mandolin, mouth organ, piano, bodhrán, céilí band drums, accompaniment, and miscellaneous. Not to forget lilting and whistling (with the lips!). So an All Ireland winner could be for U12 fiddle, 12-15 fiddle, 15-18 fiddle or senior fiddle (Wikipedia only informally tracks the Senior titles). For fiddle, pipes, flute, and whistle there are also slow air competitions, again organised by age. There are also competitions for duets, trios, and céilí bands (again by split into age categories). Oh and there's also various grúpaí ceoi competitions. There's solo singing (organised by language, sex, and age), song writing, Irish conversation and set dancing. I think that's it!
As you can see, it's the large number of competitions that generates the seeming vast number of individuals who are All Ireland winners. Hence the remark about accordion players! And those individuals claiming large numbers of titles tend to include (quite properly) their underage wins. It's also worth noting that it's pretty common in any given year for the same musician to win say the fiddle and fiddle slow air titles for their age group.
My vague recollection is that Tony won the All Ireland in a duet, or perhaps trio. Some one out there will know.
This isn't meant as a dig so I'm not expecting to be attacked, but while I know not all trad lovers are fans of Comhaltas, am I alone in finding it curious that the posters above me know so little about the fleadh cheoil structure? Or is this another core - periphery distinction? Just wondering.
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by Sweeney Astray
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
The two row button accordion is not my favourite instrument but it is a tool used many good musicians. Charlie Piggot treats it with suspicion but plays it very nicely. I have never heard that Tony McMahon won an All Ireland and Im curious.
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by Lord Gordan
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
He wrote in his memoir excerpt that he came to Dublin at eighteen and had been an all-Ireland winner so he probably had won in a junior, not senior, competition. Old records of junior competitions are hard to find.
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by ∅
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
I think I remember reading that Joe Burke himself was pipped in competition by Mr. McMahon, back in the 1950s... maybe that was a junior level All-Ireland. May have read this in "Blooming Meadows" by Fintan Vallely and Charlie Piggot, a very interesting book.
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by Paul Groff
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
But you"re not Charlie Piggott
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by Lord Gordan
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
the focus on box players in the confusion over "an" all-ireland versus "the" all-ireland is a red herring. the fact is that whether your win is local, regional, or "world," provided that it is in a competition under the auspices of CCE's "All-Ireland" terminology, and provided that you choose your wording very carefully so as not to be over-grandiosing yourself, you can say on your CD bio or your myspace bio, that you are "an all-ireland" winner, or have won "an all-ireland." and people who are informed about this, know how to read that wording. i see bios all the time by people who have not won the Big Casino, to the effect of, so and so is a multiple all-ireland winner or something like that. they are telling the truth, but it may and probably does mean, local or regional. this is different from, "so and so was the winner of the senior (or junior or whatever age category) world all-ireland title," or whatever. check out the wording in bios of people like liz carroll or martin hayes. it is subtly different from mr. macmahon's wording in the JMI memoir excerpt. and when reading that memoir excerpt, i just assumed that it was a local or regional win.
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by ceemonster
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
come to think of it, it is kind of like the subtle yet significant distinction between, i got this tune from so-and-so, versus, i got this tune from "the playing of" so-and-so. if you got the tune from a recording or a broadcast or at a concert, "from the playing of" would be the more ethical and accurate way to go. you see this one all the time on liner notes. it usually means the person got it from a record.
"i got it from so and so," better put as "was given to me by so-and-so," or, "learned from so-and-so in a workshop" means the player actually gave it to you.
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by ceemonster
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
ceemonster, in over forty years around the scene, competing, spectating, adjudicating and organising fleadhs I've never come across someone use the phrase ""All Ireland" winner" or similar to mean anything other than they took first place at THE All Ireland fleadh. Now obviously I can't say it doesn't happen but surely nobody in their right mind would try to pass off a County or Provincial win as AN All Ireland, the trad scene being so small that false claims are found out sooner or later. I can't help but think that you're being unduly cynical but perhaps I'm naive.
I agree with your second post.
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Sweeney Astray
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
i'm not being cynical----i was saying that people can say that and be telling the truth so long as they watch their wording, and that they indeed do so. i remember once hearing a gorgeous musician then living in my city who had a note about an all-ireland win on their bio in their "secondary" instrument, speak self-deprecatingly about their prowess that instrument, and when i said, oh, but you won an aa, the person laughed and said, "anyone can have an aa win, depends on what level you won it at." now, this individual was being modest, because they are lovely on their "secondary" instrument, but the point is, this was someone far more a member of the small trad scene and the fleadh scene than i, who was putting me up to speed about this....
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by ceemonster
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
One of the children I teach has won over twenty medals at the county fleadh and a half dozen at the provincial so she makes it through to the All Ireland most years but she's never won. Are you be really saying that there's a phrase she could use that would be truthful but still imply that she's won an All Ireland when she hasn't? If so, what is it?
As for your example, I can't help but think you're reading far too much into a passing remark. A phrase such as " Sure anyone can win an All Ireland" is a pretty stock response from a adult being complemented on a win, especially a junior win. As for "depends on what level you won it at" surely he/she was referring to the age group; I'm pretty certain I've never heard anyone in the States, Britain or here refer to county or provincial fleadhs as "levels" to the All Ireland. A county or provincial win stands on its own merits.
No matter. The only people I've heard make an undue fuss over titles are Americans but really it means no more than you're a good musician who had luck on your side that year. Anyone who attends county and provincial fleadhs know that luck as much as musicianship often determines who gets to the All Ireland: competitors have off-days, they have days they're on good form, they come up against an adjudicator that takes against or takes to their style and setting, their closest rival competes or decides not to compete, they compete in a competition with few, if any other, entrants or with many.
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Sweeney Astray
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
Could be minor football
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Lord Gordan
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
"He was an All Ireland Champion Accordion Player you know"
It's a lie I tell ya...I never won an All Ireland. I was in the pub the day it was on! No..I don't mean you, I mean that other box player
It's a sort of a 'Lloyd George knew my father' syndrome that has haunted me all my accordion playing life.
.
It's an 'Irish Thing' mostly used by a relative or friend of a button accordion player to put other accordion players in their place.
Strange how it mostly applies to box players?
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
well, the modest person i mentioned had not won "the" aa, but they DID have a note in their bio saying they were an aa winner or an aa champion or some such. and my point is that tony macmahon is NOT claiming something he has no right to claim, nor was this person---it's all in your wording. personally, i find the whole cce/aa obsession (and yes, it does seem to cluster in the box category) asinine.
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by ceemonster
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
So my pupil can truthfully call themselves All Ireland winner or champion even though all they've done is qualified for the All Ireland (though no mean achievement in itself)? What complete nonsense!
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by Sweeney Astray
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
Sorry ceemonster I'm with PJD. You could no more say you were "An Ireland winner" under the circumstances you describe than you could say your local pub team won the F.A. cup 'cos they made it though the first round of games before.
It is patently ridiculous and either dishonest or delusional) to claim otherwise. I'd like to think you are running a subtle wind up here.
- chris
# Posted on November 14th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
ha, well, i see the bio of the musician i was alluding to no longer contains that note, so.....
# Posted on November 15th 2009 by ceemonster
Re: When did Tony McMahon win the all Ireland
And maybe some of us will get honest..
# Posted on November 15th 2009 by Lord Gordan