Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
I ask because of an earlier discussion, where someone suggested a beginner bouzouki-player should get his instrument from a luthier.
Really ?
Obviously there are some instruments that should not be even left in the hands of the general public, they are so bad that anyone starting on one will be totally discouraged. Yet many of the Pacific-Rim instruments, particularly fretted ( my general area of knowledge ) are pretty good on the whole, way better, a whole order of magnitude better, than what I had to start with 45 years ago.
Yes, sure, you don't want total krap, but on the other hand, how will you appreciate another instrument if you can't see it is an improvement on your own ?
Friend of a friend had a Jeffries anglo, had never played any other, and wanted to trade it in ! See what I mean ?
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
I'd certainly agree with regards to fiddles. There's a fashion for those so called dark sounding ones. They have a tone that's a little bit boxy, slightly hollow. They lack the bass and a lot of the higher overtones that better fiddles have.
Yet the thing about these fiddles is it's pretty easy to make them sound OK. Sure, they're one dimensional and lack bite. And they are relatively quiet (in itself not a bad thing for a beginner).
Better fiddles will allow you to play a greater range of tones, including the boxy and slightly hollow if that's what you want. But they can easily sound very scratchy under the bow of a beginner.
Bows are a different kettle of fish though. Always always get the best bow you can, right from the start.
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
Wind instruments, better get a good one. Too many operational issues with a poorly made flute, pipes, or whistle.
Strings, I would think a bit lesser of an issue for learning technique, fiddle being the exception as stated above. Bowed and unfretted is not the same thing at all.
Never compromise on a bodhran - the subtleties and technical issues of operation are legion, and nothing less than the best will do, even during the many years of apprenticeship before you actually play in front of people.
REAL DRUMMERS DO NOT SCRIMP!
Get an accordian, any accordian, who's listening anyway?
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
Back in the early seventies I worked part time in a music shop in London. One Saturday afternoon a man and his young teenage son came in to the shop looking at guitars. The 'guitar salesman' spent ages with them and they bought a Gibson Flying V. The son then asked which of the volume controls on the guitar was for the bass guitar, which was for the rthym guitar, and which was for a lead guitar. Talk about a fool and his money....!
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
You certainly don't need to start with an expensive instrument, but if you can afford it it can make sense. To take the example of Pete's friend with the Jeffries - he is almost certainly selling it for more than he paid for it. If he had started off with a £200 chinese job, he'd be putting it on Ebay for £40.
In the world of fiddles and stringed instruments student models are usually perfectly alright to learn on - PROVIDING they are properly set up. As they come from the factory they never are. Buy them from a music shop and they should have been tweeked and made playable. Buy them from Argos or online and you don't stand a chance.
If in doubt, hand your instrument to your teacher - if he/she struggles with it, you're going to struggle too.
My advice to newcomers is always to rent or borrow an instrument to start with if you possible can. For six months or so until you know a bit about what you are doing, and are sure your going to stick it for adults, until you are ready for a full sized instrument for kids. Most big music shops rent out orchestral instruments, and the more enlightened ones are starting to do it with folk instruments too.
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
Not neccessarily the "best" instrument but a damn good one...!!! It's always difficult to justify the cost of a good instrument when unsure whether to pursue learning it or not but IMHO you are far less likely to give up.
I speak from experience... Wanting to learn the mandolin I bought a cheapo Rumanian jobby for £50... I could never tune it properly but being a beginner I didn't know that and knowing no better I assumed this was what it sounded like. On the threshold of giving up a mate of mine lent me his Fylde for a night which pursuaded me to bite the bullet and invest in a better instrument namely an Ovation and since then on to asking Joe Foley to make one for me.
Now you would have thought I learnt from that... but only 4-5 years ago I thought i'd have a crack at the the whistle and bought the guiness whistle pack on the ferry home and could never get a decent tune out of it... it was effin' brutal but again I blamed meself and wanted to give up. My brother bought me a Susato for my birthday and within a few hours it had totaly transformed my playing. So while it's not neccessary to buy the best intrument don't by cheap... it'll actually deter you from learning.
Talk about learning from experience the funniest name I ever saw on the back of a boat was "Never Again II"
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
" .. a fool and his money ..." I once saw a customer in a classical guitar store refuse an instrument because "it wasn't in tune". The proprietor and I simultaneously rolled our eyes to the ceiling.
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
Choosing a fiddle in a music shop ... especially if you're a beginner with no one to help you. First ask if the instruments have been set-up by an expert in the shop; if not, then walk.
Assuming that the instruments on display are properly set up, if I'm faced with a choice in my price range I'd go for the more resonant and responsive of the instruments. The fine detail of action and bass/treble response can later then be sorted out, if necessary, by adjustment of the bridge and sound post by a luthier. I'd be wary of any instrument that sounds dull and wooden, with little resonance - there's usually not a lot that can be done about it.
If it's a well-known business that's been around some time I think you can expect the proprietor to give you sound advice for your particular requirements - it's not in his interests to do otherwise.
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
There's absolutely no such thing as a good cheap harmonica, but really good ones don't cost the earth. £25 for a good diatonic, £35+ for a decent tremolo, £75-ish for usable chromatics. But you do need to buy a few. And play them properly so that you're not blowing them out every two minutes. In the words of Dylan, it's easy if you try.
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
When I bought a classical guitar ages ago the guy in the shop took the one he recommended of its hanger and whilst tuning it said "we don't keep them tuned for the obvious reason". I've always wondered if it was because they were there so long they needed slacking off or were out of tune to stop people playing them. Maybe they were left badly out of tune so that anyone could recognise that they needed tuning.
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
I have a rule I live by that I won't spend more than $500 on an istrument that I don't have paying gigs for. I think you can find a decent one of just about anything for $300 to $500 USD. If I can't, then I don't even try it out.
That's why I don't play pipes for instance
Also why I never picked up the oboe
but alot of instruments can be had for under $500, then if I like playing them and I see where I could make some money with them, I might go for a real nice one
but I always felt that it is not the arrow, its the indian. To me if you can't play a $5 ukelele, then you just can't play
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
Flute- the best you can afford.
Fiddle - the best you can afford.
Bow- the best you can afford
Concertina - best hybrid you can afford. Then move on to a true concertina reeded instrument after you decide to stay with it.
Pipes - best you can afford.
Whistle- I don't think it matters.
Other instruments- does it matter?
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
I just don't agree that a really good violin is a good idea for a beginner. A reasonably/cheepish violin that is set up well is a much easier instrument to play.
Though I suppose that if it is measure by what you can afford, if you have, for example, £600, then spend £450 on the bow and £150 on the violin.
I remember when I bought my first snow board I had cash to burn (good job, no kids) and I was looking at the expensive ones. But the bloke sold me a plank. He said the expensive boards are hard to control, they snap you off the jumps etc. But a big old cheep solid plank was the thing, get your technique together on that first, easy rider.
Would you try to learn to drive in a Ferrari? You'd just crash it.
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
I think Cocus is fairly on the money there. For Concertina, for a while you were stuck with the bad chinese jobs or a Stagi unless you found a decent Lach.
Then the Hybrids came out. Great players that the average person could even stick with, for (what concertina players consider) an affordable price. Still, 2k for an instrument that's not even top level is hard to swallow for a beginner. Now there's the Jack/Jackie/Rochelle. Great beginner instrument, loses nearly zero value actually, and you can upgrade if you stick to it. I'd recommend it as the starter to anybody over 2k+. I have a Morse and I don't think I'll ever upgrade from it. I love it and actually like the sound from it. That's me though.
For Whistle...hell, get a 7 dollar jobbie. Splurge and get a Freeman tweaked one. That said, you can pry my sindt from my cold dead fingers. I'm down to it and a rover set (that fits in my pocket nicely).
Flute. I've tried and failed to learn this instrument a few times. I'm trying again because I REALLY want to play it dammit. I'm using a Rob Forbes flute because it falls into that perfect category for beginners in my opinion...it's fairly cheap, and it's not limiting. I'll never outgrow it (given my personal skillset), and being delrin, it's easy to take care of. I have a LOT of problems with wood allergies, so I don't even ATTEMPT wooden flutes. If I did, the Folk Flute is a solid choice at a couple hundred. The only flute I'd consider that's cheaper than that is one of Doug Tipple's flutes. Laugh if you want, but the man makes an excellent flute from PVC.
Harmonicas...I always defer to Steve.
If I took up the Pipes, I'd be looking for a new place to live. My wife is only SO patient.
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
As far as fretted instruments go, the most important thing for the beginner, it seems to me, is that it is well set up. There's nothing like high action, fret buzz or poor intonation to put off an aspiring musician - and these problems can affect even some mid-price to high-end instruments (It should be within the capabilities of the retailer to optimize the setup before putting the instruments on sale). Whilst mass-produced plywood instruments may not produce the richest tone, if they are well set up then they will at least be easier to play and sound at their best.
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
for strings (especially fretted) setup is as important as instrument quality especially for a beginner
so too with accordions but less so
stiff bellows, reeds that don't speak readily and (worst) keys that have long lumpy travel against heavy springs are common features on cheap boxes, and all present obstacles to the beginner - when in combination they are usually the reason frustrated beginners quickly abandon the box and turn to other instruments
over 40 I've taught myself to play half a dozen instruments and it was a bitter revelation late in life (when I could finally afford decent stuff to play) that the reason I'd been a poor player for most of the 40 years was more due to my instruments' limitations than my own
bitter because whilst money (hard as it is to come by) can buy good instruments, it can't buy back the years wasted
so my advice to a beginner would be to beg borrow or steal the best instrument you can get as early on your playing career as possible - ideally at the outset
, though most accordion mechanics restrict themselves to tuning reeds and replacing valves
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
"Though I suppose that if it is measure by what you can afford, if you have, for example, £600, then spend £450 on the bow and £150 on the violin." (MG)
Agreed, but I think that needs qualification - once you had the above and had progressed somewhat, you'd want a better fiddle, without feeling the need for a much better bow. Going further up the scale (so to speak), wouldn't the cost of fiddle overtake the bow at some point?
Or from another angle, maybe a 3:1 ratio, say, might make sense with a budget of £600 but with a £1500 fiddle do you go for a £4500 bow?
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
+There's absolutely no such thing as a good cheap harmonica+
Are you saying Marine Bands are no good, or that they cost £25 now?
It's always a bit weird on forums when some beginner asks about buying instruments because there seems to be a group of people who get angry if the beginner doesn't want to spend silly money. It's like they want even trad music to become the exclusive preserve of the middle classes, although they would never actually say it like that
Certainly with fretted instruments, basic playability should come first or you won't even pick the thing up. But that's so widely available today that you can't really go wrong with a cheap instrument nowadays, as Guernsey Pete says. After a while with that you'll know where you want to spend your money
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
I think the most important consideration is that the instrument be structurally sound and capable of being set up to play without undue effort. If it also sounds good, that’s helpful. With some instruments, it can also be helpful to spend some time playing a specimen that doesn’t have a great voice. Playing inferior guitars in my early days taught me a lot about how to coax different sounds from a guitar.
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
I reckon that just because an instruments cheap, doesn't mean it's rubbish. My guitar (ibanez v70 dreadnaught) is a good example of that. I got it for £70 through school down from £115 but it sounds great and has a really comfy neck. I guess it just depends on how lucky you are.
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
Marine Bands and Special 20s will set you back £22.99 plus postage from Eagle Music (no connection - just a good place to buy from). If you buy harps cheaper than that you really need to know how to open 'em up and tweak to compensate for the lack of quality control. I don't think low 20-quids is silly money. I could have suggested harps costing two or three times that amount or suggested that you only buy from customisers, but I didn't. If you stick with the above-named Hohners, or Lee Oskars, you have a game chance of having something playable out of the box. I'm all for spending as little money as possible, believe me, but I do want to spend the evening playing harmonicas and not grovelling around in my bag for emergency spare harps.
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
I would agree that it doesn't have to be the best, but at least decent.
My first guitar was awful. The action was so high, I don't know how I was able to play it. Who wants to practice on an instrument that sounds awful and is difficult to play - especially if you are a child.
My current guitars are ok. If I have problems playing, it doesn't have anything to do with the instrument - it's because I have to practice more.
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
What are your personal aspirations? Are you looking to just fool around a bit or make a real commitment to this? There are plenty of decent cheap instruments to be found with a small amount of digging as Nate Ryan suggests. Something cheap might be a perfect investment for the casual player - at least initially. But much like a good set of golf clubs can make a world of difference for even a beginner, good musical gear can make a tremendous difference in sound, playability and enjoyment as pointed out many times in posts above.
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
accordion: a bad box can cause you no end of trouble AND pains in hands, shoulder and elbow. the answer is not to buy something expensive or the best but buy something solid and suitable from someone who knows what is what.
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
"Or from another angle, maybe a 3:1 ratio, say, might make sense with a budget of £600 but with a £1500 fiddle do you go for a £4500 bow?"
That sort of argument (which you hear now and then) is flawed because it's not a strictly scalable ratio, except perhaps in the student and amateur price ranges. If you're a professional you could be playing a £60K violin with a £3-5K bow, but there are very few bows above £5K (mostly old and with a provenance), so there's little point in looking for one should you acquire a £250K violin. If you're happy with a good bow you'll stick with it no matter how many times you change your fiddle.
A bow maker once said that the only difference between a £1200 bow and a £3000 one was the expensive gold, silver and other fittings which some customers were prepared to pay for, apparently not realising that these extras add nothing whatsoever to the tone production or the playability of the bow above the cheaper version.
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
is that really true about the fittings? I always assumed that bowmakers put gold on their best sticks, and silver on the next best. Apparently there's no grand universal theory for fiddles - starting with a good quality student instrument seems like a good idea though.
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
I think my post is being misconstrued. I did not say that a beginner should necessarily buy an instrument from a luthier, nor did I or anyone say anything that would indicate they are angry if the beginner did not want to spend "silly" money, whatever that is.
I suggested that just because someone is a beginner they should not think they have to buy a cheap instrument. I gave some reasons why I thought that. I think those of us who have had more experience ought to provide beginners with information about the range of choices they have and then they can make an informed decision.
Ideally, someone should play a lot of instruments and then buy the one they like the best that is within their price range. Unfortunately, it is hard to find a lot of bouzoukis to try out. I was lucky in that I traveled a lot for work and was able to see a number of instruments. The one I liked the best, and could afford was a Petersen. It sounded better and was easier to play than any of the cheaper instruments I looked at. When it turned out to have some minor problems, Bill cheerfully took it back and gave me another that was actually an even better instrument.
I have now had the opportunity to meet a lot of luthiers and everyone, so far, is a great person who is working hard to make a living in a field that is not going to make them rich. A number of them are now personal friends and I would much rather buy from them than some corporation, and if someone is looking for an instrument, I am going to suggest that they consider buying from a luthier.
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
Back in the dark ages when I was teaching school music I used to try to convince parents to buy "one up" from the bottom of the line acceptable instrument. It seems to me that advice applies to those interested in trad music too. There's a huge difference between in $250.00 trumpet and and $450.00 one in ease of playing and pitch accuracy. The same is true of flutes, strings and about everything else, those the price ranges might change. I even think it is worthwhile to spend a bit more than $10.00 for a whistle, or at least find a way to pick one that plays reasonably well in tune and with an acceptable sound.
That said the best route to go might be to find a fine player/teacher of whatever instrument and see what that person might know about used....
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
You can buy cheapies, even with the Hohner name on, for that money, but they won't last as long as your fish and chips, and better make sure your fish is a tuna.
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
Players outside professional circles who have had the opportunity to play a Strad / Guaneri or of that ilk will likely tell you that they are surprisingly uncompromising and perhaps unforgiving to play, if all you've been used to is a middle-of-the- road instrument (which in fact might be quite suitable for most professional playing). To start with, you need a command of bowing technique and control that is not often found at amateur level.
The frequently quoted comparison with an ordinary motorist trying to cope with a 200 mph sports car without training is an apt one.
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
ctric', but with nice, heavy (border metal) tones _ lovely
i use my thumb like Christy Moore, otherwise best sticks are fashioned from washed up tide-line debri (as with Kane O'Rourke's and i've a big, chunky one from Kerry too)
*best is best _ alway's
*anything less _ is less (always)
one of my daugther's has already graded out of her ''relatively cheap but cheerful'' acoustic 'Gort' guitar, as she's learning poppy rock songs (by bands i've never heard of) set on 'ele
now she takes my old '70's 'Strat' to lessons (albeit in a soft, unassuming black case) and she's marching up and onwards with it . . .
i bought her a bodhron around 10 years ago for only £110 which is class too (by Barrie Lockwood, banjo player, now living in Spain but not sure if he's still making them)
Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
I ask because of an earlier discussion, where someone suggested a beginner bouzouki-player should get his instrument from a luthier.
Really ?
Obviously there are some instruments that should not be even left in the hands of the general public, they are so bad that anyone starting on one will be totally discouraged. Yet many of the Pacific-Rim instruments, particularly fretted ( my general area of knowledge ) are pretty good on the whole, way better, a whole order of magnitude better, than what I had to start with 45 years ago.
Yes, sure, you don't want total krap, but on the other hand, how will you appreciate another instrument if you can't see it is an improvement on your own ?
Friend of a friend had a Jeffries anglo, had never played any other, and wanted to trade it in ! See what I mean ?
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
I'd certainly agree with regards to fiddles. There's a fashion for those so called dark sounding ones. They have a tone that's a little bit boxy, slightly hollow. They lack the bass and a lot of the higher overtones that better fiddles have.
Yet the thing about these fiddles is it's pretty easy to make them sound OK. Sure, they're one dimensional and lack bite. And they are relatively quiet (in itself not a bad thing for a beginner).
Better fiddles will allow you to play a greater range of tones, including the boxy and slightly hollow if that's what you want. But they can easily sound very scratchy under the bow of a beginner.
Bows are a different kettle of fish though. Always always get the best bow you can, right from the start.
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
Wind instruments, better get a good one. Too many operational issues with a poorly made flute, pipes, or whistle.
Strings, I would think a bit lesser of an issue for learning technique, fiddle being the exception as stated above. Bowed and unfretted is not the same thing at all.
Never compromise on a bodhran - the subtleties and technical issues of operation are legion, and nothing less than the best will do, even during the many years of apprenticeship before you actually play in front of people.
REAL DRUMMERS DO NOT SCRIMP!
Get an accordian, any accordian, who's listening anyway?
Cheers.
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by Piece
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
I agree that you should never compromise on a bodhran. Spend you cash on an intrument instead.
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
Back in the early seventies I worked part time in a music shop in London. One Saturday afternoon a man and his young teenage son came in to the shop looking at guitars. The 'guitar salesman' spent ages with them and they bought a Gibson Flying V. The son then asked which of the volume controls on the guitar was for the bass guitar, which was for the rthym guitar, and which was for a lead guitar. Talk about a fool and his money....!
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
You certainly don't need to start with an expensive instrument, but if you can afford it it can make sense. To take the example of Pete's friend with the Jeffries - he is almost certainly selling it for more than he paid for it. If he had started off with a £200 chinese job, he'd be putting it on Ebay for £40.
In the world of fiddles and stringed instruments student models are usually perfectly alright to learn on - PROVIDING they are properly set up. As they come from the factory they never are. Buy them from a music shop and they should have been tweeked and made playable. Buy them from Argos or online and you don't stand a chance.
If in doubt, hand your instrument to your teacher - if he/she struggles with it, you're going to struggle too.
My advice to newcomers is always to rent or borrow an instrument to start with if you possible can. For six months or so until you know a bit about what you are doing, and are sure your going to stick it for adults, until you are ready for a full sized instrument for kids. Most big music shops rent out orchestral instruments, and the more enlightened ones are starting to do it with folk instruments too.
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by skreech
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
Not neccessarily the "best" instrument but a damn good one...!!! It's always difficult to justify the cost of a good instrument when unsure whether to pursue learning it or not but IMHO you are far less likely to give up.
I speak from experience... Wanting to learn the mandolin I bought a cheapo Rumanian jobby for £50... I could never tune it properly but being a beginner I didn't know that and knowing no better I assumed this was what it sounded like. On the threshold of giving up a mate of mine lent me his Fylde for a night which pursuaded me to bite the bullet and invest in a better instrument namely an Ovation and since then on to asking Joe Foley to make one for me.
Now you would have thought I learnt from that... but only 4-5 years ago I thought i'd have a crack at the the whistle and bought the guiness whistle pack on the ferry home and could never get a decent tune out of it... it was effin' brutal but again I blamed meself and wanted to give up. My brother bought me a Susato for my birthday and within a few hours it had totaly transformed my playing. So while it's not neccessary to buy the best intrument don't by cheap... it'll actually deter you from learning.
Talk about learning from experience the funniest name I ever saw on the back of a boat was "Never Again II"
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by weebag
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
" .. a fool and his money ..." I once saw a customer in a classical guitar store refuse an instrument because "it wasn't in tune". The proprietor and I simultaneously rolled our eyes to the ceiling.
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
Choosing a fiddle in a music shop ... especially if you're a beginner with no one to help you. First ask if the instruments have been set-up by an expert in the shop; if not, then walk.
Assuming that the instruments on display are properly set up, if I'm faced with a choice in my price range I'd go for the more resonant and responsive of the instruments. The fine detail of action and bass/treble response can later then be sorted out, if necessary, by adjustment of the bridge and sound post by a luthier. I'd be wary of any instrument that sounds dull and wooden, with little resonance - there's usually not a lot that can be done about it.
If it's a well-known business that's been around some time I think you can expect the proprietor to give you sound advice for your particular requirements - it's not in his interests to do otherwise.
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
There's absolutely no such thing as a good cheap harmonica, but really good ones don't cost the earth. £25 for a good diatonic, £35+ for a decent tremolo, £75-ish for usable chromatics. But you do need to buy a few. And play them properly so that you're not blowing them out every two minutes. In the words of Dylan, it's easy if you try.
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
When I bought a classical guitar ages ago the guy in the shop took the one he recommended of its hanger and whilst tuning it said "we don't keep them tuned for the obvious reason". I've always wondered if it was because they were there so long they needed slacking off or were out of tune to stop people playing them. Maybe they were left badly out of tune so that anyone could recognise that they needed tuning.
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by David50
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
I have a rule I live by that I won't spend more than $500 on an istrument that I don't have paying gigs for. I think you can find a decent one of just about anything for $300 to $500 USD. If I can't, then I don't even try it out.
That's why I don't play pipes for instance
Also why I never picked up the oboe
but alot of instruments can be had for under $500, then if I like playing them and I see where I could make some money with them, I might go for a real nice one
but I always felt that it is not the arrow, its the indian. To me if you can't play a $5 ukelele, then you just can't play
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
Flute- the best you can afford.
Fiddle - the best you can afford.
Bow- the best you can afford
Concertina - best hybrid you can afford. Then move on to a true concertina reeded instrument after you decide to stay with it.
Pipes - best you can afford.
Whistle- I don't think it matters.
Other instruments- does it matter?
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by David Levine
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
I just don't agree that a really good violin is a good idea for a beginner. A reasonably/cheepish violin that is set up well is a much easier instrument to play.
Though I suppose that if it is measure by what you can afford, if you have, for example, £600, then spend £450 on the bow and £150 on the violin.
I remember when I bought my first snow board I had cash to burn (good job, no kids) and I was looking at the expensive ones. But the bloke sold me a plank. He said the expensive boards are hard to control, they snap you off the jumps etc. But a big old cheep solid plank was the thing, get your technique together on that first, easy rider.
Would you try to learn to drive in a Ferrari? You'd just crash it.
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
I think Cocus is fairly on the money there. For Concertina, for a while you were stuck with the bad chinese jobs or a Stagi unless you found a decent Lach.
Then the Hybrids came out. Great players that the average person could even stick with, for (what concertina players consider) an affordable price. Still, 2k for an instrument that's not even top level is hard to swallow for a beginner. Now there's the Jack/Jackie/Rochelle. Great beginner instrument, loses nearly zero value actually, and you can upgrade if you stick to it. I'd recommend it as the starter to anybody over 2k+. I have a Morse and I don't think I'll ever upgrade from it. I love it and actually like the sound from it. That's me though.
For Whistle...hell, get a 7 dollar jobbie. Splurge and get a Freeman tweaked one. That said, you can pry my sindt from my cold dead fingers. I'm down to it and a rover set (that fits in my pocket nicely).
Flute. I've tried and failed to learn this instrument a few times. I'm trying again because I REALLY want to play it dammit. I'm using a Rob Forbes flute because it falls into that perfect category for beginners in my opinion...it's fairly cheap, and it's not limiting. I'll never outgrow it (given my personal skillset), and being delrin, it's easy to take care of. I have a LOT of problems with wood allergies, so I don't even ATTEMPT wooden flutes. If I did, the Folk Flute is a solid choice at a couple hundred. The only flute I'd consider that's cheaper than that is one of Doug Tipple's flutes. Laugh if you want, but the man makes an excellent flute from PVC.
Harmonicas...I always defer to Steve.
If I took up the Pipes, I'd be looking for a new place to live. My wife is only SO patient.
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by Ashkettle
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
As far as fretted instruments go, the most important thing for the beginner, it seems to me, is that it is well set up. There's nothing like high action, fret buzz or poor intonation to put off an aspiring musician - and these problems can affect even some mid-price to high-end instruments (It should be within the capabilities of the retailer to optimize the setup before putting the instruments on sale). Whilst mass-produced plywood instruments may not produce the richest tone, if they are well set up then they will at least be easier to play and sound at their best.
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
for strings (especially fretted) setup is as important as instrument quality especially for a beginner
so too with accordions but less so
stiff bellows, reeds that don't speak readily and (worst) keys that have long lumpy travel against heavy springs are common features on cheap boxes, and all present obstacles to the beginner - when in combination they are usually the reason frustrated beginners quickly abandon the box and turn to other instruments
over 40 I've taught myself to play half a dozen instruments and it was a bitter revelation late in life (when I could finally afford decent stuff to play) that the reason I'd been a poor player for most of the 40 years was more due to my instruments' limitations than my own
bitter because whilst money (hard as it is to come by) can buy good instruments, it can't buy back the years wasted
so my advice to a beginner would be to beg borrow or steal the best instrument you can get as early on your playing career as possible - ideally at the outset
, though most accordion mechanics restrict themselves to tuning reeds and replacing valves
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by millionyears_bc
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
ignore last line of above
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by millionyears_bc
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
"Though I suppose that if it is measure by what you can afford, if you have, for example, £600, then spend £450 on the bow and £150 on the violin." (MG)
Agreed, but I think that needs qualification - once you had the above and had progressed somewhat, you'd want a better fiddle, without feeling the need for a much better bow. Going further up the scale (so to speak), wouldn't the cost of fiddle overtake the bow at some point?
Or from another angle, maybe a 3:1 ratio, say, might make sense with a budget of £600 but with a £1500 fiddle do you go for a £4500 bow?
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by domnull
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
+There's absolutely no such thing as a good cheap harmonica+
Are you saying Marine Bands are no good, or that they cost £25 now?
It's always a bit weird on forums when some beginner asks about buying instruments because there seems to be a group of people who get angry if the beginner doesn't want to spend silly money. It's like they want even trad music to become the exclusive preserve of the middle classes, although they would never actually say it like that
Certainly with fretted instruments, basic playability should come first or you won't even pick the thing up. But that's so widely available today that you can't really go wrong with a cheap instrument nowadays, as Guernsey Pete says. After a while with that you'll know where you want to spend your money
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by Bren
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
I think the most important consideration is that the instrument be structurally sound and capable of being set up to play without undue effort. If it also sounds good, that’s helpful. With some instruments, it can also be helpful to spend some time playing a specimen that doesn’t have a great voice. Playing inferior guitars in my early days taught me a lot about how to coax different sounds from a guitar.
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
I reckon that just because an instruments cheap, doesn't mean it's rubbish. My guitar (ibanez v70 dreadnaught) is a good example of that. I got it for £70 through school down from £115 but it sounds great and has a really comfy neck. I guess it just depends on how lucky you are.
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by Alasdair Paul
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
Marine Bands and Special 20s will set you back £22.99 plus postage from Eagle Music (no connection - just a good place to buy from). If you buy harps cheaper than that you really need to know how to open 'em up and tweak to compensate for the lack of quality control. I don't think low 20-quids is silly money. I could have suggested harps costing two or three times that amount or suggested that you only buy from customisers, but I didn't. If you stick with the above-named Hohners, or Lee Oskars, you have a game chance of having something playable out of the box. I'm all for spending as little money as possible, believe me, but I do want to spend the evening playing harmonicas and not grovelling around in my bag for emergency spare harps.
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
I would agree that it doesn't have to be the best, but at least decent.
My first guitar was awful. The action was so high, I don't know how I was able to play it. Who wants to practice on an instrument that sounds awful and is difficult to play - especially if you are a child.
My current guitars are ok. If I have problems playing, it doesn't have anything to do with the instrument - it's because I have to practice more.
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
What are your personal aspirations? Are you looking to just fool around a bit or make a real commitment to this? There are plenty of decent cheap instruments to be found with a small amount of digging as Nate Ryan suggests. Something cheap might be a perfect investment for the casual player - at least initially. But much like a good set of golf clubs can make a world of difference for even a beginner, good musical gear can make a tremendous difference in sound, playability and enjoyment as pointed out many times in posts above.
# Posted on November 11th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
accordion: a bad box can cause you no end of trouble AND pains in hands, shoulder and elbow. the answer is not to buy something expensive or the best but buy something solid and suitable from someone who knows what is what.
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by nfldbox
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
"Or from another angle, maybe a 3:1 ratio, say, might make sense with a budget of £600 but with a £1500 fiddle do you go for a £4500 bow?"
That sort of argument (which you hear now and then) is flawed because it's not a strictly scalable ratio, except perhaps in the student and amateur price ranges. If you're a professional you could be playing a £60K violin with a £3-5K bow, but there are very few bows above £5K (mostly old and with a provenance), so there's little point in looking for one should you acquire a £250K violin. If you're happy with a good bow you'll stick with it no matter how many times you change your fiddle.
A bow maker once said that the only difference between a £1200 bow and a £3000 one was the expensive gold, silver and other fittings which some customers were prepared to pay for, apparently not realising that these extras add nothing whatsoever to the tone production or the playability of the bow above the cheaper version.
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
is that really true about the fittings? I always assumed that bowmakers put gold on their best sticks, and silver on the next best. Apparently there's no grand universal theory for fiddles - starting with a good quality student instrument seems like a good idea though.
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by airport
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
I think my post is being misconstrued. I did not say that a beginner should necessarily buy an instrument from a luthier, nor did I or anyone say anything that would indicate they are angry if the beginner did not want to spend "silly" money, whatever that is.
I suggested that just because someone is a beginner they should not think they have to buy a cheap instrument. I gave some reasons why I thought that. I think those of us who have had more experience ought to provide beginners with information about the range of choices they have and then they can make an informed decision.
Ideally, someone should play a lot of instruments and then buy the one they like the best that is within their price range. Unfortunately, it is hard to find a lot of bouzoukis to try out. I was lucky in that I traveled a lot for work and was able to see a number of instruments. The one I liked the best, and could afford was a Petersen. It sounded better and was easier to play than any of the cheaper instruments I looked at. When it turned out to have some minor problems, Bill cheerfully took it back and gave me another that was actually an even better instrument.
I have now had the opportunity to meet a lot of luthiers and everyone, so far, is a great person who is working hard to make a living in a field that is not going to make them rich. A number of them are now personal friends and I would much rather buy from them than some corporation, and if someone is looking for an instrument, I am going to suggest that they consider buying from a luthier.
John
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by John Conoboy
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
A Yamaha 310 guitar is about £90 and is perfect for sessions.
Many mandolins for sessions cost around £100, octave mandolin about £200, bazoukis the same.
Fiddles, flutes, and all the rest, shop around.
The BEST bodhran in the world costs £140.
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
Back in the dark ages when I was teaching school music I used to try to convince parents to buy "one up" from the bottom of the line acceptable instrument. It seems to me that advice applies to those interested in trad music too. There's a huge difference between in $250.00 trumpet and and $450.00 one in ease of playing and pitch accuracy. The same is true of flutes, strings and about everything else, those the price ranges might change. I even think it is worthwhile to spend a bit more than $10.00 for a whistle, or at least find a way to pick one that plays reasonably well in tune and with an acceptable sound.
That said the best route to go might be to find a fine player/teacher of whatever instrument and see what that person might know about used....
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by cboody
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
Trevor
That was precisely my point
D
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by domnull
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
+The BEST bodhran in the world costs £140+
yeh but you need to spend £460 on the stick for it.
Thanks Steve - in my mind a Hohner gobiron is still about a fiver, with change for fish and chips on the way home
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by Bren
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
You can buy cheapies, even with the Hohner name on, for that money, but they won't last as long as your fish and chips, and better make sure your fish is a tuna.
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
+The BEST bodhran in the world costs £140+
yeh but you need to spend £460 on the stick for it.
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by Bren
Leave the sticks out of this.
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
Players outside professional circles who have had the opportunity to play a Strad / Guaneri or of that ilk will likely tell you that they are surprisingly uncompromising and perhaps unforgiving to play, if all you've been used to is a middle-of-the- road instrument (which in fact might be quite suitable for most professional playing). To start with, you need a command of bowing technique and control that is not often found at amateur level.
The frequently quoted comparison with an ordinary motorist trying to cope with a 200 mph sports car without training is an apt one.
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
"+The BEST bodhran in the world costs £140+
yeh but you need to spend £460 on the stick for it."
Save your money. They sound much better if you don't use the stick.
# Posted on November 12th 2009 by skreech
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
ctric', but with nice, heavy (border metal) tones _ lovely
i use my thumb like Christy Moore, otherwise best sticks are fashioned from washed up tide-line debri (as with Kane O'Rourke's and i've a big, chunky one from Kerry too)
*best is best _ alway's
*anything less _ is less (always)
one of my daugther's has already graded out of her ''relatively cheap but cheerful'' acoustic 'Gort' guitar, as she's learning poppy rock songs (by bands i've never heard of) set on 'ele
now she takes my old '70's 'Strat' to lessons (albeit in a soft, unassuming black case) and she's marching up and onwards with it . . .
i bought her a bodhron around 10 years ago for only £110 which is class too (by Barrie Lockwood, banjo player, now living in Spain but not sure if he's still making them)
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by lisaniska
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
don't know what happened there but you can work it out
. . . so the answer is a simple 'yes'
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by lisaniska
Re: Do you really need the best instrument as a beginner ?
On fretted instruments I always say get the best you can afford, it wont hurt your fingers, and if you give up, it will be easier to sell again!
# Posted on November 15th 2009 by tirvaluk