most fret instruments have a bone nut, this defines the end of the scale, this can be adjusted to alter the string action at the nut.
some have a zero fret, with a bone nut behind it. the idea being that the sound of the open string will sound more similar to a fretted string (i think). to adjust the action on the zero fret you have to reduce the fret height.
on both types, the open string always has a higher action than the action when capoing on the first fret.
so why not build a neck with a zero fret, and a space between the zero fet and the nut, for the capo to sit.
this would presumably give a good open sound, but also optimum action at the nut.
probably a dumbass question but it keeps crossing my mind.
the only reasons i can think of against this is fretwear, and sometimes the capo feels in the way.
you may ask,
why not just capo up and tune down?
cos it throws me dots out, and on some instruments its good to keep the full scale length in use (eg BZ)
Actually, Herb Taylor has built a few instruments with a "parking spot" between the zero fret and the nut, including one of the bouzoukis that Roger Landes is playing these days. (I think Roger first presented the idea to Herb.)
A zero fret saves the instrument's maker the trouble of cutting the false nut's slits to a precise depth - they can safely be cut deep and quickly
the slits in a normal bone or plastic nut have to be cut accurately. they usually aren't, but can be so cut that the string height at the nut is the same as all the fret crowns down the neck, making the action (the distance that the string has to be depressed before engaging the fret) at the first fret the same as it would be when (for example) fretting a string at the 7th fret from a barred (or cappo'd) 6th fret
it takes quite a bit of skill to cut nuts this way but its an essential part of a low action setup
it would probably make more sense for makers just to match the gauge of fretwire at the zero fret with that of the other fret positions
Most high-end instruments would have a carefully cut bone nut, but this must add time and cost. A luthier must be able to provide a good reason why this is still the first choice. Seems cheating just to stick on a fretboard and chop it behind fret zero. I have a cheap old Harmony mandolin that's done like this, and Fylde instruments have it (and they don't come into the cheap category). Fylde discuss it on their website: http://www.fyldeguitars.com/d_features.html - click on the Zero frets and intonation link.
My chief complaint about various old acoustic guitars that have come my way is, why don't they give you enough extra height on the saddle and bridge to allow for later adjustment as the neck gradually misaligns over the years?
If the instrument is properly set up............
...........IF the instrument is properly set-up, then the nut/zero-fret action should NOT be significantly higher than from the first fret capo'ed.
But time is money, and most instruments arrive in the shop lacking something in the setting-up department.
When I was building my last ( electric ) guitar I had to fit a nut to the commercial neck, and the instrument was never quite in tune, until I bought a tuner, and was able to fine-tune the nut-slots for both action and tuning.
If the nut is high, then the first fret always seems sharp, as you have to bend the string out of line significantly to fret it on the first fret. This throws everything out if you compensate by, for instance, adjusting the saddle position for perfect octaves and harmonics.
I don't see what putting a capo behind the zero fret would achieve.
The zero fret should be exactly the same height as the other frets, so the action height is the same on the open string as it is with a capo on the first fret.
That said, there are one or two guitar manufacturers (Gretch comes to mind) who use a heavier guage wire for the zero fret. I have never worked out why they do it, and if you have one of these instruments the first thing you should do take it to a luthier and get the zero fret either ripped out and replaced with wire that matches the other frets, or at the very least stoned down to the same height as the other frets.
thanks for your replies.
its nice to see someone stole my idea before i even thought of it.
i dont really get why it would make a difference; which is why i was hesitant to ask.
it *is* true however, that on all my instruments (cheap and expensive) capoeing makes a big difference to action. i like low action.
no doubt none of my instruments are set up correctly (whats a luthier?).
i can see why zero frets are used from an "consistancy of sound" perspective.
its true they are often on cheaper instruments, but some respected hand builders use them too. eg hathway.
the piece on the fylde website is interesting, cheers.
GP makes the fair point that with a good setup there should be little difference in action betwixt the open string and a capo on 1st fret.
but... in practice..... how many of you can say this is true of your instruments?
The nut slot (or zero fret), first and second frets should all lie in a straight line. So if you fret each string between the second and third frets, and look at the first fret, the string should be just touching it. If you can see a gap the nut (or zero fret) is too high.
The zero fret thing does seem to be a matter of tradition/snobbery. The Fylde website link is very interesting because the subtext seems to be, "don't think this is a cop-out, it's actually really hard and therefore good!"
"I don't see what putting a capo behind the zero fret would achieve." I think rumpole's idea is that since the capo is likely to change the tuning slightly, why not have it on all the time, even when you're playing "without it" ! Open to correction on this.
I haven’t played an instrument with one of those parking spaces, but it looks to me like a possible source of trouble. To anchor the vibrational end of the open string and to firmly establish its vibrating length, you should have a significant breaking angle over the supernumerary fret. Otherwise, there could be some subtle loss of sustain and clarity as the string loses a small amount of energy and geometrical-vibrational integrity (whatever that means) over the top of the fret. Of course, if this were to happen, it’d be easily cured by clamping a capo behind the fret.
skreech, thanks for the test, i'll check this on everything.
earl, what does sarcastic mean?
tom, not quite, its not really just that in my experience, the capo seems to be the only solution for getting splendidly low action.
from what others have said here in a ideal world the nut would be perfect height, thus making this idea redundant, but me and my instruments dont live in utopia.
others here have also said that they always capo up and tune down - the parking space idea just allows you to do this whilst using the whole scale of your instrument.
bob, interesting re break angle. it makes sense.....on my BZ this angle is quite shallow (i will measure it when i find a ruler)
any idea what the minimum should be?
I don't think the break angle is the only issue. I think lateral location of the strings will come into it too.
On a typical setup with 1mm fretwire and the nut about 5mm behind the zero fret with the slots cut to 0.25mm above the fingerboard the break angle is about 8.5º. If you increase the gap between the zero fret and nut it reduces the break angle as Bob says, but it also reduces the lateral location of the strings, giving them more scope to move sideways over the fret.
I think even if you were to slope the fingerboard behind the zero fret, so that you could maintain the 8.5º break angle with the nut further away, you would still have problems. (unless of course you put slots in the fret to positively locate the strings..... but then it becomes a nut, not a fret )
Herb convinced me that the zero fret is a good idea because it eliminates the difference in tone between open and fretted notes and it allows for a really low action.
I asked for the "parking space" because I like to keep the capo on the instrument even when I am not using it to facilitate moving it between tunes without having to stop playing. Having it parked between nut and zero fret at tension when I tune the open strings also helps minimize tuning distortion when I do use it.
action: nuts capos and fret zero
action: nuts capos and fret zero
i keep wondering about this.
most fret instruments have a bone nut, this defines the end of the scale, this can be adjusted to alter the string action at the nut.
some have a zero fret, with a bone nut behind it. the idea being that the sound of the open string will sound more similar to a fretted string (i think). to adjust the action on the zero fret you have to reduce the fret height.
on both types, the open string always has a higher action than the action when capoing on the first fret.
so why not build a neck with a zero fret, and a space between the zero fet and the nut, for the capo to sit.
this would presumably give a good open sound, but also optimum action at the nut.
probably a dumbass question but it keeps crossing my mind.
the only reasons i can think of against this is fretwear, and sometimes the capo feels in the way.
you may ask,
why not just capo up and tune down?
cos it throws me dots out, and on some instruments its good to keep the full scale length in use (eg BZ)
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by rumpole
Re: action: nuts capos and fret zero
Actually, Herb Taylor has built a few instruments with a "parking spot" between the zero fret and the nut, including one of the bouzoukis that Roger Landes is playing these days. (I think Roger first presented the idea to Herb.)
Seems to work well.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Reverend
Re: action: nuts capos and fret zero
Here's one of Herb's bouzoukis that he has put a "parking spot" on...
http://www.herbtaylor.com/instruments/bouzouki/i115/
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Reverend
Re: action: nuts capos and fret zero
When someone "thought of it before" it may well confirm that it was a good idea.....
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by TomB-R
Re: action: nuts capos and fret zero
A zero fret saves the instrument's maker the trouble of cutting the false nut's slits to a precise depth - they can safely be cut deep and quickly
the slits in a normal bone or plastic nut have to be cut accurately. they usually aren't, but can be so cut that the string height at the nut is the same as all the fret crowns down the neck, making the action (the distance that the string has to be depressed before engaging the fret) at the first fret the same as it would be when (for example) fretting a string at the 7th fret from a barred (or cappo'd) 6th fret
it takes quite a bit of skill to cut nuts this way but its an essential part of a low action setup
it would probably make more sense for makers just to match the gauge of fretwire at the zero fret with that of the other fret positions
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by millionyears_bc
Re: action: nuts capos and fret zero
"Eko" guitars used to have that zero fret - it made them very smooth-playing.
See here:
http://www.vintaxe.com/catalogs/thumb_8283eko_page1.jpg
I don't know why more fretted instrument-makers don't do it - there must be a good reason ... ?
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Bren
Re: action: nuts capos and fret zero
Ah now... you should know better than to be looking at the dots if you frequent this site a lot
Personally, I tune down a semitone and park a quickdraw capo at the 1st fret - works reasonably well for my purposes.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by On Sabbatical
Re: action: nuts capos and fret zero
Most high-end instruments would have a carefully cut bone nut, but this must add time and cost. A luthier must be able to provide a good reason why this is still the first choice. Seems cheating just to stick on a fretboard and chop it behind fret zero. I have a cheap old Harmony mandolin that's done like this, and Fylde instruments have it (and they don't come into the cheap category). Fylde discuss it on their website: http://www.fyldeguitars.com/d_features.html - click on the Zero frets and intonation link.
My chief complaint about various old acoustic guitars that have come my way is, why don't they give you enough extra height on the saddle and bridge to allow for later adjustment as the neck gradually misaligns over the years?
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by RichardB
Re: action: nuts capos and fret zero
If the instrument is properly set up............
...........IF the instrument is properly set-up, then the nut/zero-fret action should NOT be significantly higher than from the first fret capo'ed.
But time is money, and most instruments arrive in the shop lacking something in the setting-up department.
When I was building my last ( electric ) guitar I had to fit a nut to the commercial neck, and the instrument was never quite in tune, until I bought a tuner, and was able to fine-tune the nut-slots for both action and tuning.
If the nut is high, then the first fret always seems sharp, as you have to bend the string out of line significantly to fret it on the first fret. This throws everything out if you compensate by, for instance, adjusting the saddle position for perfect octaves and harmonics.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: action: nuts capos and fret zero
I don't see what putting a capo behind the zero fret would achieve.
The zero fret should be exactly the same height as the other frets, so the action height is the same on the open string as it is with a capo on the first fret.
That said, there are one or two guitar manufacturers (Gretch comes to mind) who use a heavier guage wire for the zero fret. I have never worked out why they do it, and if you have one of these instruments the first thing you should do take it to a luthier and get the zero fret either ripped out and replaced with wire that matches the other frets, or at the very least stoned down to the same height as the other frets.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by skreech
Re: action: nuts capos and fret zero
thanks for your replies.
its nice to see someone stole my idea before i even thought of it.
i dont really get why it would make a difference; which is why i was hesitant to ask.
it *is* true however, that on all my instruments (cheap and expensive) capoeing makes a big difference to action. i like low action.
no doubt none of my instruments are set up correctly (whats a luthier?).
i can see why zero frets are used from an "consistancy of sound" perspective.
its true they are often on cheaper instruments, but some respected hand builders use them too. eg hathway.
the piece on the fylde website is interesting, cheers.
GP makes the fair point that with a good setup there should be little difference in action betwixt the open string and a capo on 1st fret.
but... in practice..... how many of you can say this is true of your instruments?
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by rumpole
Re: action: nuts capos and fret zero
There is a very simple test:
The nut slot (or zero fret), first and second frets should all lie in a straight line. So if you fret each string between the second and third frets, and look at the first fret, the string should be just touching it. If you can see a gap the nut (or zero fret) is too high.
(And a luthier is a stringed instrument maker)
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by skreech
Re: action: nuts capos and fret zero
I think he was being sarcastic
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: action: nuts capos and fret zero
The zero fret thing does seem to be a matter of tradition/snobbery. The Fylde website link is very interesting because the subtext seems to be, "don't think this is a cop-out, it's actually really hard and therefore good!"
"I don't see what putting a capo behind the zero fret would achieve." I think rumpole's idea is that since the capo is likely to change the tuning slightly, why not have it on all the time, even when you're playing "without it" ! Open to correction on this.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by TomB-R
Re: action: nuts capos and fret zero
I haven’t played an instrument with one of those parking spaces, but it looks to me like a possible source of trouble. To anchor the vibrational end of the open string and to firmly establish its vibrating length, you should have a significant breaking angle over the supernumerary fret. Otherwise, there could be some subtle loss of sustain and clarity as the string loses a small amount of energy and geometrical-vibrational integrity (whatever that means) over the top of the fret. Of course, if this were to happen, it’d be easily cured by clamping a capo behind the fret.
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: action: nuts capos and fret zero
skreech, thanks for the test, i'll check this on everything.
earl, what does sarcastic mean?
tom, not quite, its not really just that in my experience, the capo seems to be the only solution for getting splendidly low action.
from what others have said here in a ideal world the nut would be perfect height, thus making this idea redundant, but me and my instruments dont live in utopia.
others here have also said that they always capo up and tune down - the parking space idea just allows you to do this whilst using the whole scale of your instrument.
bob, interesting re break angle. it makes sense.....on my BZ this angle is quite shallow (i will measure it when i find a ruler)
any idea what the minimum should be?
cheers
# Posted on November 5th 2009 by rumpole
Re: action: nuts capos and fret zero
I don't think the break angle is the only issue. I think lateral location of the strings will come into it too.
)
On a typical setup with 1mm fretwire and the nut about 5mm behind the zero fret with the slots cut to 0.25mm above the fingerboard the break angle is about 8.5º. If you increase the gap between the zero fret and nut it reduces the break angle as Bob says, but it also reduces the lateral location of the strings, giving them more scope to move sideways over the fret.
I think even if you were to slope the fingerboard behind the zero fret, so that you could maintain the 8.5º break angle with the nut further away, you would still have problems. (unless of course you put slots in the fret to positively locate the strings..... but then it becomes a nut, not a fret
# Posted on November 6th 2009 by skreech
Re: action: nuts capos and fret zero
blimey thanks, its getting complicated, no?
time to find me a luthier i think !
# Posted on November 7th 2009 by rumpole
Re: action: nuts capos and fret zero
Herb convinced me that the zero fret is a good idea because it eliminates the difference in tone between open and fretted notes and it allows for a really low action.
I asked for the "parking space" because I like to keep the capo on the instrument even when I am not using it to facilitate moving it between tunes without having to stop playing. Having it parked between nut and zero fret at tension when I tune the open strings also helps minimize tuning distortion when I do use it.
# Posted on April 10th 2011 by zoukboy_2000