About a year ago I submitted a request for some advice on session etiquette and thanks to the advice from members of this group, we were able to get our local irish session back on track. However, just as we thought our problems were over, the owner of the pub where we play has informed us that she is getting pressure from BMI to pay them a fee for the live irish music that we are providing. This is in addition to the fee that she already pays for the "canned" music that saturates the bar on the days we are not there. I don't even know what the initials BMI stand for but I don't think it means "Body Mass Index". All I know is that they are a "music performing rights organization" and are demanding a fee for us to play music that I thought was in the public domain. Does anyone out there have any information on the topic of charging fees to pub owners for live irish session music? I seem to remember a distant thread about the same thing happening in Ireland. Is this another one of those global monsters with the greedy eyes and drooling chin? Help me please!
Legerdeuxmains, just a few quick thoughts on the matter:
Where is the pub? Does the pub owner properly understand what BMI (whoever they are, presumably with a BMI well in excess of 30) want? Perhaps BMI themselves don't really know what's being played, they may think you're all playing off sheet music by modern composers, which could well come within their remit for collecting fees. This all needs to be investigated. If the outcome is not satisfactory, then a swift move to another, more congenial, establishment is obviously indicated.
Btw, I try not to be too suspicious, but are you *quite* sure that any fees in respect of Irish trad music in the sessions will indeed be going to BMI? And if such money goes into the coffers of BMI, how do BMI propose to redistribute it to the general benefit of traditional music, since very few tunes have identifiable authors and are still in copyright (it would be easy enough to avoid such tunes in a session)?
Well, it's a little more complicated than that. BMI protects the rights of songwriters and composers and performers -- if a bar is playing music on a jukebox, for instance, BMI collects a fee and distributes it to the artists (and I would cynically assume the music publishers, vampires that they are upon the blood of the recording artist).
You can find BMI on the Net at http://www.bmi.com, along with online brochures and such on what is protected and all, and if you input just about anything into the Repertoire search engine, like say, Maid Behind the Bar, you'll come up with composers, performers, publishers, etc. My bet is that Bluegrass and Old Time music also falls into this gray area of traditional music.
I've written the BMI LA office to ask for an official stance on the traditional Irish session, and we'll see what they come up with. Could be interesting.
How has it all fallen out in London, the last place we heard about this sort of nonsense?
1. What is BMI?
BMI is a music performing rights organization.
2. What is a performing right?
It is the right granted under the U.S. Copyright Act to owners of musical works to license these works to be publicly performed on radio and television and in places such as nightclubs, hotels, discos, retail stores and other establishments that use music in an effort to enhance their business.
3. What does BMI do?
There are hundreds of thousands of establishments radio and television stations, nightclubs, hotels, amusement parks and the like in the U.S. where music is publicly performed. It would be virtually impossible for individuals to monitor these music users themselves. Therefore, BMI acquires performing rights from writers and publishers and, in turn, grants licenses to use its entire repertoire to public users of music. BMI collects license fees from each user of music BMI licenses, and distributes to its writers and publishers all the money collected, other than what is needed for operating expenses.
ASCAP is the same sort of organization. If you aren't playing anything non Trad you shouldn't have to worry about it. Give your bar owner a list of the songs that you guys do so she can say "see they aren't playing anything copywritten" and offer to sign a paper saying you won't play anything copywritten (for her peace of mind). If you do that make darn sure you're not playing anything copywritten (nothing by Jay Unger...Wizard walk, Ashokan Farewell), because it would cost her more in fines than it would in the original fee. The fee shouldn't be that much. It is based on frequency of live music and capacity of the establishment. A renaissance festival I work at has a capacity of 35,000 people per day for 15 days and they were charged $2,500.00 US for performance rights fees (ASCAP & BMI combined). I imagine it would be significantly less for the bar owner.
I run into this all the time, BMI and ASCAP collect royalties for composers whenever and wherever they want. They have the legal right, so resistance is futile, sad to say. It doesn't seem to matter whether music is PD or original or what, if there's live music, BMI/ASCAP will show up and demand payment.
Thanks for the help and comments so far, especially to Zina for checking out the LA connection and for Autumn's idea of making a list ot the tunes that we play to prove they are public domain. I know that the license fee is not that steep but at this point it's the principle of the thing. Public domain should mean exactly what it says: res publica ; it belongs to everyone. I am also thinking of putting out a tip jar to collect to fee with a large sign to explain why the money is being collected and to whom it is destined. I know that the pub owner usually absorbs these fees and figures that the extra business that comes in for the music could cover the cost. Unfortunately, it could also discourage the owners of these establishments from going through the hassle of licensing live musicians and opt for the canned variety. What's the status of these fees in Ireland and England?
Ah, so BMI is an American organisation. I didn't know. That renders most of the content of my first post on this thread irrelevant. Ah well ...
Zina, in Bristol we haven't noticed any change in sessions due to the new music licensing legislation. To be sure, one or two pubs have stopped having sessions, but others have taken their place. This is due to the usual change of ownership or a new bar manager who doesn't want live music anyway, so is quite normal. My feeling is that the more draconian aspects of the legislation concerning sessions and the like are being quietly and sensibly ignored. What's the situation elsewhere in the UK?
Trevor
The whole site is rather interesting. Apparently both BMI and ASCAP play hard ball and are willing to try extortion types of techniques to force licenses on establishments where only trad. music is played.
However, as long as you don't play an arrangement that's copywrite material or a newer tune, trad. songs by themselves are public domain.
Aaaand I just wrote a similar e-mail to the legal department of BMI, asking for an official clarification and statement of BMI's position on the Irish traditional music session. We'll see what happens with that.
Zina - be very interested to hear the outcome if and when you get a reply.
NO such nonsense has surfaced over here in Ireland [including the North] and I would be amazed if it did. Most of the tunes that we play are 'traditional' in that you probably won't know who the original composer is. I would also be very surprosed if those musicians who are composing music today [like Charlie Lennon, Liz Doherty and many others] would want to stifle the playing of their tunes through this kind of mechanism.
If you play for loadsa money then I think it only fair to pay the royalty if you use someone else's music, or if you broadcast or record someone else's arrangement but NOT for a session where all you're getting is a bit of hospitality from the landlord.
I think if it happened here that there would be uproar.
Just another thought - tell them that your music is traditional and defy these BMI chaps to prove that what you are playing comes within their fiefdom. Surely it's up to them to prove that your tunes are the intellectual property of someone else?
I looked up several trad. tunes on the BMI site such as Maid Behind the Bar (as above), the Kesh, Cooley's Reel, and they were all listed. I think they get listed whenever a musician plays one on an album or if they're in a beginner's instrumental music book. However, as per the letter I linked to above, if you're not playing the version as arranged on the album or as from the book - you'd be OK. This could get very sticky if they were jerks, and since the US does not have a frivolous lawsuit law (where the loser of a frivolous lawsuit pays legal fees to the one they sue), they could easily bury you in a lawsuit. Which just goes to show that if you have enough money, you can achieve a lot more freedom than the common man in the USA.
Any lawyer who has practised for any amount of time is going to include the cost of legal and court fees in a countersuit. It's not whether BMI has a *case* or not, it's whether they are pressuring your pub owner into getting a license for fear of fines and other such. What we need is to get some kind of letter out of them stating that we're home free that we can distribute to people to give to their pub owners to give to the local BMI rep -- or, if their stance is that pub owners must still pay up (due to some of the tunes being copyright), to pelt our elected representatives with letters and petitions.
I can just see a group of players standing in the State legislation with mutes on and instruments silent, with signs saying that BMI won't allow us to play the State legislature unless they pay a BMI license fee, can't you?
Did I mention that I'm by nature an activist? *grin* Too bad that I'm also by nature a lazy slob as well...
Eric -- finally got the time to go through that site today -- you're right -- very interesting! Hmmm. If things go badly wrong with BMI and US Irish sessions in the future, perhaps a class law action would be in order...that'd be fun, wouldn't it? At that level, I'd imagine we could get one of the civil rights groups interested, as it would be a landmark case on a subject which would infringe upon the rights of American musicians who play traditional music of any kind.
BTW, Louis, y'might want to let your pub owner know about that website and that the Copyright Office gave an opinion that traditional and original music is all okay...they can use that to fight of BMI while we're trying to get some kind of official ruling from somebody...
The equivalent of the BMI in the United Kingdom is the Performing Rights Society - www.prs.co.uk, and in Ireland it is the Irish Music Rights Organisation - www.imro.ie IMRO advertise their existence a lot in Irish Music Magazine, so they are clearly getting more and more active. The Performing Rights Society has been around for many years. I worked behind the scenes in television in the UK in the late 1960s, and one of my jobs was to make "returns" to the PRS, which involved submitting the name of the tune, the lyricist, the tune-writer, the arranger, and for how long the tune had been played, for any music used in the programme. If the authors or arrangers were members of the PRS, which involves them paying an annual subscription, the PRS would collect a fee from the television company - although less than 30 seconds worth was free - and pay it to the member. If the member had a publishing deal, the publisher would take a cut of that fee. There are rules about what happens if a member is dead, e.g. whether the fee goes to their estate. On the one hand, I really believe strongly that musicians get a rough enough deal as it is without being done out of money for the performance of their work. On the other hand, if a tradititional tune cannot be attributed to an author, or if that author is not a member of one of the Rights organisations, then, as I understand it, no fees are payable - unless, of course, you are playing a living person's arrangement. Jane R
I did not realize that this was a problem in the United States, the "land of the fee, err no ... I mean FREE" I think that is really stupid. Here is an idea. If BMI insists on the "fee" ask for an accounting! Given that all of the music being played is trad Irish/scotch etc. , then the fees from the session should rightfully go ONLY to composers who hold copyright on that type of music. How much is BMI paying out to trad. musicians. Even worse that having the bar owner pay the fee would be seeing go to some puke rock band or big lable executive.
It is interesting that BMI does not even have a folk or traditional category listed in the musical styles menu in the musical resources section of their homepage.
After reading an earlier reply of this discussion, I searched on BMI for a couple of tunes that I knew were penned by living artists, i.e. members of Altan. I found that all current members are registered with BMI. I also found the Bothy Band members (minus Tommy Peoples) registered. In fact Donal Lunny, listed as a songwriter/composer, has 700+ titles listed under his name.
With all due to respect to these wonderful artists, I wonder if registering for their respective arrangements/ornamentation etc. has led to problems of this nature. Can we expect any organization to differentiate one arrangement of a tune that is within the public domain, to that of Altan’s arrangement?
Please understand, I find the tactics of BMI to be reprehensible. It seems to be a case of big money bullying more out of the common man.
Its an absolute disgrace.
But wouldnt the case be - I could play a set the exact way that Altan does, but if I put a triplet there instead of the roll that they put there wouldnt it cancel the whole thing out because that would then become *my* setting?
I am looking forward to the response from them in regards to Zina's letter.
bb - I think you're right that changing one thing would make the difference on a trad tune. For example, if you're not playing all the same instruments as a group, with everyone playing exactly the same notes, it sounds like that would be exempt.
Perhaps this is the best thing about NOT being as good as Conal O'Grada (for example). I learn a tune of his off his solo CD (thus increasing the chance of infrining on BMI territory), but luckily I'm not nearly good enough to pull it off correctly so I play it my stipped down way thus creating my own version.
At least part of what's driving recording artists to copyright their arrangements of trad tunes is the well-padded record labels trying to get a headlock on profits. As the music became popularized, RCA, Virgin, and other labels sought out the big stars and then looked for a way to make money off the public domain repertoire. I can imagine the musicians buying into the idea that their hard work arranging a tune should be assigned some value, but it's a shame they agreed that it should be a *monetary* value, rather than the respect of other trad musicians. I suspect Joe Cooley, Martin Roche, Scully Casey, and others are rolling over in their graves.
You'll be glad to know that when you buy CD-R's to put YOUR music on, a fee goes to BMI, ASCAP, etc. Same for cassettes. It's extortion, plain and simple, and a portion of those revenues will certainly go to some "puke rock band or big label executive."
Perhaps what needs to happen eventually is an accumulation of music that is correctly researched and documented as being available without fee for public performance. Traditional tunes could be registered there, and people could contribute their own works as well.
It's a difficult subject, though. Take Maid Behind the Bar for example. If you play it as you learned it from a buddy in a session, that might be fine. It's a traditional tune. But what if he learned it from a Bothy Band CD, and the arrangement has elements that aren't traditional, but an expression of the band's creativity. It may well be there's a protectible expression in their arrangement and adaptation, and while you're thinking you're playing a traditional tune and exempt from copyright issues, you may be demonstrably infringing the Bothy Band's copyright, even though you may never have heard the CD.
Or what if you do Black Velvet Band, but you add a verse you've heard someone else sing, and it turns out that verse is unique to an arrangement done by a commercial band in Boston who's with BMI? Even if they don't want to stop you singing the verse (they registered with BMI to cover an original composition of theirs but Black Velvet Band was also on the CD), BMI can take you to court "on their behalf".
Bar owners are understandably leery, because you might well promise "I only play public-domain Irish traditional", and you might mean it, but BMI (or ASCAP et al) could possibly find some arguable violation. The law carries *very* heavy possible penalties for willful infringement, so those are the numbers the bar owner gets thrown in his face by BMI. I can understand the bar owner knuckling under -- would you really risk all you own, and your livelihood, on the word of an honest musician who means well, but who can't fiscally shield the establishment if BMI makes good on its threat to put him out of business via a protracted, costly suit?
Well, they haven't exactly got a stellar record vis a vis replying to requests for info. I'll keep trying though, and perhaps a request through a state representative (if all else comes to naught) might light a bit of a fire under 'em...
Jayhawk's made a good point. If I don't watch it I have no difficulty whatsoever in diverging from the script and playing all the notes that the others aren't playing. They tell me it enriches the texture, or something Just as well I never went into drama, I'd be an absolute menace in a Noel Coward play.
But to be a little more serious, I doubt whether substituting a triplet for a roll would get you off the hook if it came to the crunch in court. I think the court would be looking for something more substantial in the way in which the tune is altered, possibly veering more towards the concept of a "version" rather than a "variation".
I think I'll contact this BMI mob and get meself a job.
After all they must pay investigators to go into hotels and drink and sit along the walls of pubs just waiting for the crowd of musicians to launch into a bothy band set!You can just see them leppin up to the bar and accosting the bewildered barman as soon as 49 bars of the kesh have been played.
"I'm special agent Muldoon form the BMI - I'll have to ask you to cease trading and have those musicians desist from playing these copyrighted works until restitution has been properly made...and I'll have another pint while yer there."
Sorry to make light of it all, I do think that it is a very grey area.I could understand if you had composed a tune and found somebody else had recorded or performes the exact same piece you should be fairly upset- but as for playing tunes in sessions and parties, they should not be able to enforce it or threaten action against the publicans.
At least it is a possibility over there. I have it on reasonably good authority that the "Oirish Theme Pubs" here in Sydney (with the exception of a few genial hosts) are made to sign a contract that the entertainment will consist of recordings and live rock cover bands-but no diddley-dee/trad/ITM whatsoever.
Can't wait til the revolution starts.
I heard that too greenwiggle - a particular pub round haymarket especially, what a load of b*llocks, I'm sure it has nothing to do with copyright laws - more to do with the fact that dodgy country and Irish bands pull in the crowds! (no accounting for some peoples taste!)
Hey I've logged on in Kaohsiung during the Aussie shift! Hi Beebs are you missing me yet? I'm feeling what it's like not to be constantly drunk or hungover, and I'm trying to work off my beergut which I gained from going out on binges with you About this stupid BMI business, all I can say is that it really really infuriates me. Is money all that anyone cares about these days? I'm also interested to hear an update on the current situation in the UK, and whether anyone here has any stories about it actually wrecking sessions.
apologies for hijacking the thread already...yeah bb, thats the one - although it is "just" one chain owned by one manager at the moment, who knows what the others are doing. I would like to ask the "Irish Echo" (Aus) to do an investigative piece (I know the publisher) there is no point as at least a third of their advertising is from the sydney irish pubs so they would be shooting themselves in the foot.
The only real way to hurt them would be to alert Sydney's Irish bands not to play there on Paddy's day (surely the one day of the year when they would relax the rule) or if they did charge them thrice the going rate for the busiest day of the calender year but how do you prove it let alone tell people what is really goin on?
Had a quick search of the APRA site to find out their stance but the search engine is not really a lot of help.
Keep the tunes krankin and say high to Lenny for us.
PS hijacking threads? That's my trick! I'll definitely take you up on the "three rounds" - of Guinness. (I have it in writing unless Jeremy decides to delete it)
HA! shouldn't have said that now all I have to do is mention religion, politics, opinion and tell bb what set the kesh goes nicely in and a few choice swearwords and he'll have to press the red button, hahahah so here goes:
You guys are crazy. Thanks Dow (no bb indeed)- ;-P
Me and lenny will be in on wed so I may see you there greenwiggle.
But back to the topic, would you really need to Prove that they were doing that - signing contracts saying that they cant hire traditional musicians? Couldnt that been seen as discrimination? Maybe we should have a look into the 'Equal Oppurtunity Board'. We could launch a worldwide musician rights movement!!!
Hello out there again. Just thought I would step in a bit to let everyone know what the status is in our little town since I last started this mess. At this point, we have decided to try and find the local BMI representative and have a face to face meeting in hopes of using some gentle persuasion. Maybe if they can be shown a list ot the tunes we play, we could sweet talk our way out of this. I'll keep you posted.
pay to play
pay to play
About a year ago I submitted a request for some advice on session etiquette and thanks to the advice from members of this group, we were able to get our local irish session back on track. However, just as we thought our problems were over, the owner of the pub where we play has informed us that she is getting pressure from BMI to pay them a fee for the live irish music that we are providing. This is in addition to the fee that she already pays for the "canned" music that saturates the bar on the days we are not there. I don't even know what the initials BMI stand for but I don't think it means "Body Mass Index". All I know is that they are a "music performing rights organization" and are demanding a fee for us to play music that I thought was in the public domain. Does anyone out there have any information on the topic of charging fees to pub owners for live irish session music? I seem to remember a distant thread about the same thing happening in Ireland. Is this another one of those global monsters with the greedy eyes and drooling chin? Help me please!
# Posted on October 24th 2003 by legerdeuxmains
Re: pay to play
Legerdeuxmains, just a few quick thoughts on the matter:
Where is the pub? Does the pub owner properly understand what BMI (whoever they are, presumably with a BMI well in excess of 30) want? Perhaps BMI themselves don't really know what's being played, they may think you're all playing off sheet music by modern composers, which could well come within their remit for collecting fees. This all needs to be investigated. If the outcome is not satisfactory, then a swift move to another, more congenial, establishment is obviously indicated.
Btw, I try not to be too suspicious, but are you *quite* sure that any fees in respect of Irish trad music in the sessions will indeed be going to BMI? And if such money goes into the coffers of BMI, how do BMI propose to redistribute it to the general benefit of traditional music, since very few tunes have identifiable authors and are still in copyright (it would be easy enough to avoid such tunes in a session)?
Trevor
# Posted on October 24th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: pay to play
Well, it's a little more complicated than that. BMI protects the rights of songwriters and composers and performers -- if a bar is playing music on a jukebox, for instance, BMI collects a fee and distributes it to the artists (and I would cynically assume the music publishers, vampires that they are upon the blood of the recording artist).
You can find BMI on the Net at http://www.bmi.com, along with online brochures and such on what is protected and all, and if you input just about anything into the Repertoire search engine, like say, Maid Behind the Bar, you'll come up with composers, performers, publishers, etc. My bet is that Bluegrass and Old Time music also falls into this gray area of traditional music.
I've written the BMI LA office to ask for an official stance on the traditional Irish session, and we'll see what they come up with. Could be interesting.
How has it all fallen out in London, the last place we heard about this sort of nonsense?
Zina
# Posted on October 24th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: pay to play
This is on BMI.com
1. What is BMI?
BMI is a music performing rights organization.
2. What is a performing right?
It is the right granted under the U.S. Copyright Act to owners of musical works to license these works to be publicly performed on radio and television and in places such as nightclubs, hotels, discos, retail stores and other establishments that use music in an effort to enhance their business.
3. What does BMI do?
There are hundreds of thousands of establishments radio and television stations, nightclubs, hotels, amusement parks and the like in the U.S. where music is publicly performed. It would be virtually impossible for individuals to monitor these music users themselves. Therefore, BMI acquires performing rights from writers and publishers and, in turn, grants licenses to use its entire repertoire to public users of music. BMI collects license fees from each user of music BMI licenses, and distributes to its writers and publishers all the money collected, other than what is needed for operating expenses.
ASCAP is the same sort of organization. If you aren't playing anything non Trad you shouldn't have to worry about it. Give your bar owner a list of the songs that you guys do so she can say "see they aren't playing anything copywritten" and offer to sign a paper saying you won't play anything copywritten (for her peace of mind). If you do that make darn sure you're not playing anything copywritten (nothing by Jay Unger...Wizard walk, Ashokan Farewell), because it would cost her more in fines than it would in the original fee. The fee shouldn't be that much. It is based on frequency of live music and capacity of the establishment. A renaissance festival I work at has a capacity of 35,000 people per day for 15 days and they were charged $2,500.00 US for performance rights fees (ASCAP & BMI combined). I imagine it would be significantly less for the bar owner.
Anyways, I hope that helped.
~Autumn
# Posted on October 24th 2003 by autumn
Re: pay to play
I run into this all the time, BMI and ASCAP collect royalties for composers whenever and wherever they want. They have the legal right, so resistance is futile, sad to say. It doesn't seem to matter whether music is PD or original or what, if there's live music, BMI/ASCAP will show up and demand payment.
# Posted on October 24th 2003 by Rayzore
Re: pay to play
Thanks for the help and comments so far, especially to Zina for checking out the LA connection and for Autumn's idea of making a list ot the tunes that we play to prove they are public domain. I know that the license fee is not that steep but at this point it's the principle of the thing. Public domain should mean exactly what it says: res publica ; it belongs to everyone. I am also thinking of putting out a tip jar to collect to fee with a large sign to explain why the money is being collected and to whom it is destined. I know that the pub owner usually absorbs these fees and figures that the extra business that comes in for the music could cover the cost. Unfortunately, it could also discourage the owners of these establishments from going through the hassle of licensing live musicians and opt for the canned variety. What's the status of these fees in Ireland and England?
# Posted on October 24th 2003 by legerdeuxmains
Re: pay to play
Ah, so BMI is an American organisation. I didn't know. That renders most of the content of my first post on this thread irrelevant. Ah well ...
Zina, in Bristol we haven't noticed any change in sessions due to the new music licensing legislation. To be sure, one or two pubs have stopped having sessions, but others have taken their place. This is due to the usual change of ownership or a new bar manager who doesn't want live music anyway, so is quite normal. My feeling is that the more draconian aspects of the legislation concerning sessions and the like are being quietly and sensibly ignored. What's the situation elsewhere in the UK?
Trevor
# Posted on October 24th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: pay to play
BMI also collects overseas from the US as well, I believe, but I'm not sure how that works...
# Posted on October 24th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: pay to play
Here is the link to an article I found on just this subject:
http://users.westelcom.com/minstrel/kretsinger.htm
The whole site is rather interesting. Apparently both BMI and ASCAP play hard ball and are willing to try extortion types of techniques to force licenses on establishments where only trad. music is played.
However, as long as you don't play an arrangement that's copywrite material or a newer tune, trad. songs by themselves are public domain.
Eric
# Posted on October 24th 2003 by Jayhawk
Re: pay to play
Aaaand I just wrote a similar e-mail to the legal department of BMI, asking for an official clarification and statement of BMI's position on the Irish traditional music session. We'll see what happens with that.
# Posted on October 24th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: pay to play
Zina - be very interested to hear the outcome if and when you get a reply.
NO such nonsense has surfaced over here in Ireland [including the North] and I would be amazed if it did. Most of the tunes that we play are 'traditional' in that you probably won't know who the original composer is. I would also be very surprosed if those musicians who are composing music today [like Charlie Lennon, Liz Doherty and many others] would want to stifle the playing of their tunes through this kind of mechanism.
If you play for loadsa money then I think it only fair to pay the royalty if you use someone else's music, or if you broadcast or record someone else's arrangement but NOT for a session where all you're getting is a bit of hospitality from the landlord.
I think if it happened here that there would be uproar.
# Posted on October 24th 2003 by breandan
Re: pay to play
Just another thought - tell them that your music is traditional and defy these BMI chaps to prove that what you are playing comes within their fiefdom. Surely it's up to them to prove that your tunes are the intellectual property of someone else?
# Posted on October 25th 2003 by breandan
Re: pay to play
I looked up several trad. tunes on the BMI site such as Maid Behind the Bar (as above), the Kesh, Cooley's Reel, and they were all listed. I think they get listed whenever a musician plays one on an album or if they're in a beginner's instrumental music book. However, as per the letter I linked to above, if you're not playing the version as arranged on the album or as from the book - you'd be OK. This could get very sticky if they were jerks, and since the US does not have a frivolous lawsuit law (where the loser of a frivolous lawsuit pays legal fees to the one they sue), they could easily bury you in a lawsuit. Which just goes to show that if you have enough money, you can achieve a lot more freedom than the common man in the USA.
Eric
# Posted on October 25th 2003 by Jayhawk
Re: pay to play
Any lawyer who has practised for any amount of time is going to include the cost of legal and court fees in a countersuit. It's not whether BMI has a *case* or not, it's whether they are pressuring your pub owner into getting a license for fear of fines and other such. What we need is to get some kind of letter out of them stating that we're home free that we can distribute to people to give to their pub owners to give to the local BMI rep -- or, if their stance is that pub owners must still pay up (due to some of the tunes being copyright), to pelt our elected representatives with letters and petitions.
I can just see a group of players standing in the State legislation with mutes on and instruments silent, with signs saying that BMI won't allow us to play the State legislature unless they pay a BMI license fee, can't you?
Did I mention that I'm by nature an activist? *grin* Too bad that I'm also by nature a lazy slob as well...
# Posted on October 25th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: pay to play
Eric -- finally got the time to go through that site today -- you're right -- very interesting! Hmmm. If things go badly wrong with BMI and US Irish sessions in the future, perhaps a class law action would be in order...that'd be fun, wouldn't it? At that level, I'd imagine we could get one of the civil rights groups interested, as it would be a landmark case on a subject which would infringe upon the rights of American musicians who play traditional music of any kind.
# Posted on October 25th 2003 by Zina Lee
BTW, Louis, y'might want to let your pub owner know about that website and that the Copyright Office gave an opinion that traditional and original music is all okay...they can use that to fight of BMI while we're trying to get some kind of official ruling from somebody...
# Posted on October 25th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: pay to play
Zina,
I do think that would be fun (a class action suit) if BMI doesn't come through and do the decent thing.
Keep us posted if BMI decides to reply (or not).
Eric
# Posted on October 25th 2003 by Jayhawk
Re: pay to play
The equivalent of the BMI in the United Kingdom is the Performing Rights Society - www.prs.co.uk, and in Ireland it is the Irish Music Rights Organisation - www.imro.ie IMRO advertise their existence a lot in Irish Music Magazine, so they are clearly getting more and more active. The Performing Rights Society has been around for many years. I worked behind the scenes in television in the UK in the late 1960s, and one of my jobs was to make "returns" to the PRS, which involved submitting the name of the tune, the lyricist, the tune-writer, the arranger, and for how long the tune had been played, for any music used in the programme. If the authors or arrangers were members of the PRS, which involves them paying an annual subscription, the PRS would collect a fee from the television company - although less than 30 seconds worth was free - and pay it to the member. If the member had a publishing deal, the publisher would take a cut of that fee. There are rules about what happens if a member is dead, e.g. whether the fee goes to their estate. On the one hand, I really believe strongly that musicians get a rough enough deal as it is without being done out of money for the performance of their work. On the other hand, if a tradititional tune cannot be attributed to an author, or if that author is not a member of one of the Rights organisations, then, as I understand it, no fees are payable - unless, of course, you are playing a living person's arrangement. Jane R
# Posted on October 26th 2003 by LW
Re: pay to play
I did not realize that this was a problem in the United States, the "land of the fee, err no ... I mean FREE" I think that is really stupid. Here is an idea. If BMI insists on the "fee" ask for an accounting! Given that all of the music being played is trad Irish/scotch etc. , then the fees from the session should rightfully go ONLY to composers who hold copyright on that type of music. How much is BMI paying out to trad. musicians. Even worse that having the bar owner pay the fee would be seeing go to some puke rock band or big lable executive.
# Posted on October 26th 2003 by johnbunch
It is interesting that BMI does not even have a folk or traditional category listed in the musical styles menu in the musical resources section of their homepage.
# Posted on October 26th 2003 by johnbunch
Re: pay to play
After reading an earlier reply of this discussion, I searched on BMI for a couple of tunes that I knew were penned by living artists, i.e. members of Altan. I found that all current members are registered with BMI. I also found the Bothy Band members (minus Tommy Peoples) registered. In fact Donal Lunny, listed as a songwriter/composer, has 700+ titles listed under his name.
With all due to respect to these wonderful artists, I wonder if registering for their respective arrangements/ornamentation etc. has led to problems of this nature. Can we expect any organization to differentiate one arrangement of a tune that is within the public domain, to that of Altan’s arrangement?
Please understand, I find the tactics of BMI to be reprehensible. It seems to be a case of big money bullying more out of the common man.
Deb.
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by Agnes Nutter
Re: pay to play
Its an absolute disgrace.
But wouldnt the case be - I could play a set the exact way that Altan does, but if I put a triplet there instead of the roll that they put there wouldnt it cancel the whole thing out because that would then become *my* setting?
I am looking forward to the response from them in regards to Zina's letter.
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by bb
Re: pay to play
bb - I think you're right that changing one thing would make the difference on a trad tune. For example, if you're not playing all the same instruments as a group, with everyone playing exactly the same notes, it sounds like that would be exempt.
Perhaps this is the best thing about NOT being as good as Conal O'Grada (for example). I learn a tune of his off his solo CD (thus increasing the chance of infrining on BMI territory), but luckily I'm not nearly good enough to pull it off correctly so I play it my stipped down way thus creating my own version.
All hail mediocrity and averageness!
Eric
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by Jayhawk
Re: pay to play
At least part of what's driving recording artists to copyright their arrangements of trad tunes is the well-padded record labels trying to get a headlock on profits. As the music became popularized, RCA, Virgin, and other labels sought out the big stars and then looked for a way to make money off the public domain repertoire. I can imagine the musicians buying into the idea that their hard work arranging a tune should be assigned some value, but it's a shame they agreed that it should be a *monetary* value, rather than the respect of other trad musicians. I suspect Joe Cooley, Martin Roche, Scully Casey, and others are rolling over in their graves.
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: pay to play
You'll be glad to know that when you buy CD-R's to put YOUR music on, a fee goes to BMI, ASCAP, etc. Same for cassettes. It's extortion, plain and simple, and a portion of those revenues will certainly go to some "puke rock band or big label executive."
Perhaps what needs to happen eventually is an accumulation of music that is correctly researched and documented as being available without fee for public performance. Traditional tunes could be registered there, and people could contribute their own works as well.
It's a difficult subject, though. Take Maid Behind the Bar for example. If you play it as you learned it from a buddy in a session, that might be fine. It's a traditional tune. But what if he learned it from a Bothy Band CD, and the arrangement has elements that aren't traditional, but an expression of the band's creativity. It may well be there's a protectible expression in their arrangement and adaptation, and while you're thinking you're playing a traditional tune and exempt from copyright issues, you may be demonstrably infringing the Bothy Band's copyright, even though you may never have heard the CD.
Or what if you do Black Velvet Band, but you add a verse you've heard someone else sing, and it turns out that verse is unique to an arrangement done by a commercial band in Boston who's with BMI? Even if they don't want to stop you singing the verse (they registered with BMI to cover an original composition of theirs but Black Velvet Band was also on the CD), BMI can take you to court "on their behalf".
Bar owners are understandably leery, because you might well promise "I only play public-domain Irish traditional", and you might mean it, but BMI (or ASCAP et al) could possibly find some arguable violation. The law carries *very* heavy possible penalties for willful infringement, so those are the numbers the bar owner gets thrown in his face by BMI. I can understand the bar owner knuckling under -- would you really risk all you own, and your livelihood, on the word of an honest musician who means well, but who can't fiscally shield the establishment if BMI makes good on its threat to put him out of business via a protracted, costly suit?
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by vulcan666
Re: pay to play
Well, they haven't exactly got a stellar record vis a vis replying to requests for info. I'll keep trying though, and perhaps a request through a state representative (if all else comes to naught) might light a bit of a fire under 'em...
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by Zina Lee
Funny that we keep using the Bothy Band as an example. I mean, considering. And all. *snort*
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: pay to play
Jayhawk's made a good point. If I don't watch it I have no difficulty whatsoever in diverging from the script and playing all the notes that the others aren't playing. They tell me it enriches the texture, or something
Just as well I never went into drama, I'd be an absolute menace in a Noel Coward play.
But to be a little more serious, I doubt whether substituting a triplet for a roll would get you off the hook if it came to the crunch in court. I think the court would be looking for something more substantial in the way in which the tune is altered, possibly veering more towards the concept of a "version" rather than a "variation".
Trevor
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by Trevor Jennings
Re: pay to play
I think I'll contact this BMI mob and get meself a job.
After all they must pay investigators to go into hotels and drink and sit along the walls of pubs just waiting for the crowd of musicians to launch into a bothy band set!You can just see them leppin up to the bar and accosting the bewildered barman as soon as 49 bars of the kesh have been played.
"I'm special agent Muldoon form the BMI - I'll have to ask you to cease trading and have those musicians desist from playing these copyrighted works until restitution has been properly made...and I'll have another pint while yer there."
Sorry to make light of it all, I do think that it is a very grey area.I could understand if you had composed a tune and found somebody else had recorded or performes the exact same piece you should be fairly upset- but as for playing tunes in sessions and parties, they should not be able to enforce it or threaten action against the publicans.
At least it is a possibility over there. I have it on reasonably good authority that the "Oirish Theme Pubs" here in Sydney (with the exception of a few genial hosts) are made to sign a contract that the entertainment will consist of recordings and live rock cover bands-but no diddley-dee/trad/ITM whatsoever.
Can't wait til the revolution starts.
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: pay to play
I heard that too greenwiggle - a particular pub round haymarket especially, what a load of b*llocks, I'm sure it has nothing to do with copyright laws - more to do with the fact that dodgy country and Irish bands pull in the crowds! (no accounting for some peoples taste!)
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by bb
Re: pay to play
Hey I've logged on in Kaohsiung during the Aussie shift! Hi Beebs are you missing me yet? I'm feeling what it's like not to be constantly drunk or hungover, and I'm trying to work off my beergut which I gained from going out on binges with you
About this stupid BMI business, all I can say is that it really really infuriates me. Is money all that anyone cares about these days? I'm also interested to hear an update on the current situation in the UK, and whether anyone here has any stories about it actually wrecking sessions.
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: pay to play
apologies for hijacking the thread already...yeah bb, thats the one - although it is "just" one chain owned by one manager at the moment, who knows what the others are doing. I would like to ask the "Irish Echo" (Aus) to do an investigative piece (I know the publisher) there is no point as at least a third of their advertising is from the sydney irish pubs so they would be shooting themselves in the foot.
The only real way to hurt them would be to alert Sydney's Irish bands not to play there on Paddy's day (surely the one day of the year when they would relax the rule) or if they did charge them thrice the going rate for the busiest day of the calender year but how do you prove it let alone tell people what is really goin on?
Had a quick search of the APRA site to find out their stance but the search engine is not really a lot of help.
Keep the tunes krankin and say high to Lenny for us.
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by Greenwiggle
PS APRA is the australian equivalent of the BMI from what I can gather.
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by Greenwiggle
hey! dow ...good to know you are still with us.How's the beer over there.Do they sell VB?
Let me know when you return and I'll buy you three rounds!
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: pay to play
No, thank goodness, it's vb free! And bb free
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by Dr. Dow
PS hijacking threads? That's my trick! I'll definitely take you up on the "three rounds" - of Guinness. (I have it in writing unless Jeremy decides to delete it)
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by Dr. Dow
Re: pay to play
HA! shouldn't have said that now all I have to do is mention religion, politics, opinion and tell bb what set the kesh goes nicely in and a few choice swearwords and he'll have to press the red button, hahahah so here goes:
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by Greenwiggle
How did he do that?
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: pay to play
You guys are crazy. Thanks Dow (no bb indeed)- ;-P
Me and lenny will be in on wed so I may see you there greenwiggle.
But back to the topic, would you really need to Prove that they were doing that - signing contracts saying that they cant hire traditional musicians? Couldnt that been seen as discrimination? Maybe we should have a look into the 'Equal Oppurtunity Board'. We could launch a worldwide musician rights movement!!!
# Posted on October 27th 2003 by bb
Re: pay to play
Hello out there again. Just thought I would step in a bit to let everyone know what the status is in our little town since I last started this mess. At this point, we have decided to try and find the local BMI representative and have a face to face meeting in hopes of using some gentle persuasion. Maybe if they can be shown a list ot the tunes we play, we could sweet talk our way out of this. I'll keep you posted.
# Posted on October 28th 2003 by legerdeuxmains
Re: pay to play
Please do keep us posted. This hasn't come up in my neck of the woods, but we can all learn from your experiences.
Eric
# Posted on October 28th 2003 by Jayhawk