A 30 minute BBC radio documentary broadcast this morning about the latest research developments into what makes the Stradivarius and other violins of the Cremona period so special. Although less than 1% of the members here are likely to own or play a Stradivarius, , it is a topic that is of perennial interest on any music forum involving fiddlers.
A quote from the BBC website about the programme:
"Can modern technology identify the elusive components that give Stradivarius violins a unique voice? Analysts have submitted the master instruments to a battery of tests, from CT scans to burning original samples of varnish, but are they just chasing a myth?
Professor Trevor Cox investigates, and Tasmin Little finishes the programme playing her Stradivarius."
(Trevor Cox is Professor of Acoustics at the University of Salford)
There is a lot of this going on with prewar Gibson Mastertone banjos. I know these are mostly a Bluegrass utilized instrument but there are some crossover players and the research is relevant to this thread.
A gentleman by the name of Steve Huber has taken reproducing the prewar Mastertone flathead to new levels. He is using science to analyze the rims and tonerings to duplicate the originals as accurately as possible.
His banjos do sound great but currently not as great as some of the originals. I would think once he works out the rest of the details the only remaining factor would be time (playing and aging).
Since “blind” listeners can’t tell a Strad from a really good modern fiddle, isn’t this a moot pursuit, so to speak? It’s a fascinating topic, if you’re interested in instruments, but I think it’s ultimately a question-begging circle.
Do banjos change detectably with age, other than the head? I wouldn’t have thought so, but I’d rather learn than be right.
With regards to the comments of "Bob himself" I seem to recall both Grapelli and Menuhin both played Guineri violins, also from Cremona, rather than Strads, and presumably bought tickets for them when flying!
Huber is not only a highly respected banjo maker but a top class musician himself, having previously played with one of my favorite bluegrass bands "The Kenny and Amanda Smith Band".
Thanks for the link. Fairly predictable fence-sitting.
There are only a few factors that go into how we perceive a 'great' fiddle: wood, arching, thicknessing, air-volume, varnish, etc, etc, and most importantly 3 or 4 centuries of bias.
"Can modern technology identify the elusive components that give Stradivarius violins a unique voice?"
Until there is a set of ears that can reliably identify Strads, this is a moot question. Technology can measure an impressive array of characteristics, but if it doesn't relate reliably and predictably to what the ears hear, what does it mean?
Do Strads ih fact have a unique voice? I'm not aware of any repeatable listening experiments that successfully identify Strads. They are undoubtedly wonderful fiddles, but, apparently, so are plenty of others.
The trouble is that when you hear any instrument played you hear the player. Electric six string devil twanglers go on & on about the values of different instruments and hardware and if they do get to actually play the strat and rig as used by Jimi they are dissappointed to find they just sound like themselves. It's all in the fingers, lips and brains.
The fiddle's just a hammer.
“blind” listeners can’t tell a Strad from a really good modern fiddle--
Yes, but the player certainly can tell the difference. Read "The Violin Maker," by John Marchese.
I thought I saw some recent research that focused on the climate and they determined that it was a colder than average period that caused the trees they harvested to have denser ring paterns, and so the trees themselves had better tonal properties becaue there had recently been a couple decades where the weather was poor for tree growth and so the wood grains were different than what we would find today
The Violin Maker, Is that a book? I'll look for it.
A player might be able to tell the difference while playing, but it would be pretty hard to make it a truly blind comparison. If it’s not truly blind, then the disinterested experimenter can’t reach a defensible conclusion. If there is *any* clue that suggests that the instrument being played is or is not the Strad, then all bets are off. It’s a conundruminium.
There's also research into the Loar mandos, which pretty much set the standard for bluegrass mandos, and are basically the Strads of the mando world ($250,000 and up if you can find one-- only about 250 were made).
Michael Hayden the Canadian builder has done lots of work on Loars and his mandos take quite a few pages from Loar (not the scroll, however). In the mando world, you can't tell a modern high-end instrument (which has settled into its age) from a Loar although players say they feel different.
Now i'm going to wait for the bluegrass people to rip me apart
Fact is, most Strads with the exception of fancy unplayed ones, have been modified over the years so that there is no baseline or standard Strad sound. Most sport new necks new bass bars and many are re voiced and revarnished...
A frien downs 2 Strads. I have held them both.
The plain one is rather slopily built, the fancy one more exacting. The owner is a fine player of 50 plus years.
He declares the fancy one to be a total dog and priceless...
the other plain one he says is a fine sounding and playing fiddle and though worth less than the other, still very valuable.
Strad was an exacting ( when he wanted to be) and prolific builder who was still making viloins as a rather eldrly gent.
Strads have been analyzed to death... and there are fantastic claims for the Strad "sound" ranging from powdered oyster shell "ground" to wood soaked in dog pee to wood harvested
on eastern slopes by the light of the full moon while romping nude...
As to the Mastertone tone rings.. others besides Huber claim to have done the metalurgy and recreated their version of the "real deal".. this includes SAGA who make the Gold Star in China
I owned a 23 Ball Bearing that was just fine without the legendary Mastertone tone ring
Loar designed what he thought was a mandolin for classical music... Had Monroe played a Washburn, all the sheep would be playing those. No doubt the Loars are fine instruments...
too bad they are wasted on B,lueGrass.. chop chop
I too believe in the Pepsi Coke test
at best seasoned musicians and devotees would do no better than 50/50 guessing which of two fine instruments was the one of the legendary golden era units of yor played by a top notch musician secreted behind a curtain...
Science vs the Stradivarius
Science vs the Stradivarius
A 30 minute BBC radio documentary broadcast this morning about the latest research developments into what makes the Stradivarius and other violins of the Cremona period so special. Although less than 1% of the members here are likely to own or play a Stradivarius,
, it is a topic that is of perennial interest on any music forum involving fiddlers.
You can hear the programme over the next seven days by clicking on the iPlayer link in http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00nf33g
A quote from the BBC website about the programme:
"Can modern technology identify the elusive components that give Stradivarius violins a unique voice? Analysts have submitted the master instruments to a battery of tests, from CT scans to burning original samples of varnish, but are they just chasing a myth?
Professor Trevor Cox investigates, and Tasmin Little finishes the programme playing her Stradivarius."
(Trevor Cox is Professor of Acoustics at the University of Salford)
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Science vs the Stradivarius
There is a lot of this going on with prewar Gibson Mastertone banjos. I know these are mostly a Bluegrass utilized instrument but there are some crossover players and the research is relevant to this thread.
A gentleman by the name of Steve Huber has taken reproducing the prewar Mastertone flathead to new levels. He is using science to analyze the rims and tonerings to duplicate the originals as accurately as possible.
His banjos do sound great but currently not as great as some of the originals. I would think once he works out the rest of the details the only remaining factor would be time (playing and aging).
Should be interesting to see how his banjos age.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by drinkybanjo
Re: Science vs the Stradivarius
Since “blind” listeners can’t tell a Strad from a really good modern fiddle, isn’t this a moot pursuit, so to speak? It’s a fascinating topic, if you’re interested in instruments, but I think it’s ultimately a question-begging circle.
Do banjos change detectably with age, other than the head? I wouldn’t have thought so, but I’d rather learn than be right.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Science vs the Stradivarius
“blind” listeners can’t tell a Strad from a really good modern fiddle"
Glad every one of the experts involved could be counted on to be objective.
Not like the tests between wood and delrin/polypenco GHBs, eh?
Or wood vs. synthetic whisltes?
Or flutes?
etc. etc. etc....ad nauseum.
Rather embarrassing, really.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Piece
Re: Science vs the Stradivarius
With regards to the comments of "Bob himself" I seem to recall both Grapelli and Menuhin both played Guineri violins, also from Cremona, rather than Strads, and presumably bought tickets for them when flying!
Huber is not only a highly respected banjo maker but a top class musician himself, having previously played with one of my favorite bluegrass bands "The Kenny and Amanda Smith Band".
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Tony O'Rourke
Re: Science vs the Stradivarius
So does Nigel whatsisname
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Science vs the Stradivarius
Thanks for the link. Fairly predictable fence-sitting.
There are only a few factors that go into how we perceive a 'great' fiddle: wood, arching, thicknessing, air-volume, varnish, etc, etc, and most importantly 3 or 4 centuries of bias.
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by mutatis mutandis
Re: Science vs the Stradivarius
Just listening. The program is actually about "Sahnce and the Stradivarius" (a famous vahlin maker)
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Science vs the Stradivarius
"Can modern technology identify the elusive components that give Stradivarius violins a unique voice?"
Until there is a set of ears that can reliably identify Strads, this is a moot question. Technology can measure an impressive array of characteristics, but if it doesn't relate reliably and predictably to what the ears hear, what does it mean?
Do Strads ih fact have a unique voice? I'm not aware of any repeatable listening experiments that successfully identify Strads. They are undoubtedly wonderful fiddles, but, apparently, so are plenty of others.
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Science vs the Stradivarius
The trouble is that when you hear any instrument played you hear the player. Electric six string devil twanglers go on & on about the values of different instruments and hardware and if they do get to actually play the strat and rig as used by Jimi they are dissappointed to find they just sound like themselves. It's all in the fingers, lips and brains.
The fiddle's just a hammer.
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by yhaalhouse
Stradivarius
“blind” listeners can’t tell a Strad from a really good modern fiddle--
Yes, but the player certainly can tell the difference. Read "The Violin Maker," by John Marchese.
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by David Levine
Re: Science vs the Stradivarius
I thought I saw some recent research that focused on the climate and they determined that it was a colder than average period that caused the trees they harvested to have denser ring paterns, and so the trees themselves had better tonal properties becaue there had recently been a couple decades where the weather was poor for tree growth and so the wood grains were different than what we would find today
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Science vs the Stradivarius
The Violin Maker, Is that a book? I'll look for it.
A player might be able to tell the difference while playing, but it would be pretty hard to make it a truly blind comparison. If it’s not truly blind, then the disinterested experimenter can’t reach a defensible conclusion. If there is *any* clue that suggests that the instrument being played is or is not the Strad, then all bets are off. It’s a conundruminium.
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Science vs the Stradivarius
There's also research into the Loar mandos, which pretty much set the standard for bluegrass mandos, and are basically the Strads of the mando world ($250,000 and up if you can find one-- only about 250 were made).
Michael Hayden the Canadian builder has done lots of work on Loars and his mandos take quite a few pages from Loar (not the scroll, however). In the mando world, you can't tell a modern high-end instrument (which has settled into its age) from a Loar although players say they feel different.
Now i'm going to wait for the bluegrass people to rip me apart
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by chris stolz
Re: Science vs the Stradivarius
Fact is, most Strads with the exception of fancy unplayed ones, have been modified over the years so that there is no baseline or standard Strad sound. Most sport new necks new bass bars and many are re voiced and revarnished...
A frien downs 2 Strads. I have held them both.
The plain one is rather slopily built, the fancy one more exacting. The owner is a fine player of 50 plus years.
He declares the fancy one to be a total dog and priceless...
the other plain one he says is a fine sounding and playing fiddle and though worth less than the other, still very valuable.
Strad was an exacting ( when he wanted to be) and prolific builder who was still making viloins as a rather eldrly gent.
Strads have been analyzed to death... and there are fantastic claims for the Strad "sound" ranging from powdered oyster shell "ground" to wood soaked in dog pee to wood harvested
on eastern slopes by the light of the full moon while romping nude...
As to the Mastertone tone rings.. others besides Huber claim to have done the metalurgy and recreated their version of the "real deal".. this includes SAGA who make the Gold Star in China
I owned a 23 Ball Bearing that was just fine without the legendary Mastertone tone ring
Loar designed what he thought was a mandolin for classical music... Had Monroe played a Washburn, all the sheep would be playing those. No doubt the Loars are fine instruments...
too bad they are wasted on B,lueGrass.. chop chop
I too believe in the Pepsi Coke test
at best seasoned musicians and devotees would do no better than 50/50 guessing which of two fine instruments was the one of the legendary golden era units of yor played by a top notch musician secreted behind a curtain...
# Posted on November 13th 2009 by bohemian