Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
I'm mystified about how Father Kelly's two reels, The Rossmore Jetty and Ben Hill came to be named [only in North America? just wondering] Father Kelly's No.1 and No.2.
In a Ceili House clip someone kindly posted on this site, Fr. Kelly explains how he named the tunes [ie, Ben Hill and Rossmore Jetty]. He never makes mention of any "1" or "2".
So how did they come to be called that and played OPPOSITE in order to how Fr. Kelly himself plays them! In other words he plays Ben Hill first ["no.2"] and then Rossmore Jetty ["no.1"]
Fascinating how these things get engraved in stone. Many of the good players in Toronto have always played them and known them as 1 and 2. Patrick Ourceau tells me however he learned them as Fr. Kelly played them from his sources in Clare and is how he always plays them. But he is in the minority over here across the pond. They are played the same in Halifax and no doubt in Montreal and Sydney, N.S. for all I know.
Re: Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
The Rossmore Jetty is the one *everyone* knows as Father Kelly's (according to the tunes database - I never knew it's proper title before). Presumably, when someone introduced Ben Hill (not a tune I'm familiar with - at least, not by that name) into a certain circle of musicians, the Father Kelly's that everyone already knew naturally became known as 'No.1', whilst the *other*, less common, Father Kelly's became 'No.2'.
Re: Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
The tune people around here play when someone mentions Father Kelly's is a G version of the tune posted on this site as Rossmore Jetty, and posted in D. The A part is almost identical except for the key, although there are differences in the B part, as some of the things done in the G version would be too high if moved up to D in pitch. And a good tune it is! Heard it just last Sunday, leading into the Star of Munster.
Re: Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
All,
the eponymous "Father Kelly's" played around here is indeed "No.1"/aka, the rossmore jetty. Some people also play Ben Hill/no.2 with it.
I just find it interesting that the actual composer of the tunes never called his namesakes "Father Kelly's" in the first place...he clearly had a name for both! Interesting.
Also, he played them in the reverse order that "tradition" [some traditiions anyway] have adopted.
Re: Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
I am willing to acknowledge that Vancouver is years behind Toronto (since we lost the C.P.R.), but am relieved to know that other areas are also only aware of the one Father Kelly's reel (in G).
I'll casually announce "Rossmore Jetty" at the next session, followed by the usual Flowers of Edinburgh and Sally Gardens.
Should cause quite a stir.
Re: Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
"I just find it interesting that the actual composer of the tunes never called his namesakes "Father Kelly's" in the first place...he clearly had a name for both! Interesting."
It would seem that musicians are just better at remembering tunes than remembering their names. I've lost count of the number of tunes I've heard called 'Paddy O'Brien's', 'Sean Ryan's', 'Reavy's' etc. - They all have titles if you look hard enough, but people seem to manage without knowing them. If, as in the case of Father Kelly's, there is only one tune by that name that has achieved widespread popularity, then there is even less need for titles.
"Also, he played them in the reverse order that "tradition" [some traditiions anyway] have adopted"
Perhaps, because of the reversed numbering, some players started playing them in the opposite order. Or perhaps someone just tried in on a whim and decided they liked it better - or they simply forgot which order they normally went in.
As for the numbering, you try telling a bunch of seasoned traditional players that the they've known for years as 'Father Kelly's' is suddenly 'No.2' and the tune that goes before it, which they've never heard before, is No.1. They wouldn't have it.
Please supply the name of the tune without any other information e.g. composer, setting, etc. and
please do not add numbers to the tune title.
If you don't know the name of the tune, please enter 'Gan Ainm'.
Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
I'm mystified about how Father Kelly's two reels, The Rossmore Jetty and Ben Hill came to be named [only in North America? just wondering] Father Kelly's No.1 and No.2.
In a Ceili House clip someone kindly posted on this site, Fr. Kelly explains how he named the tunes [ie, Ben Hill and Rossmore Jetty]. He never makes mention of any "1" or "2".
So how did they come to be called that and played OPPOSITE in order to how Fr. Kelly himself plays them! In other words he plays Ben Hill first ["no.2"] and then Rossmore Jetty ["no.1"]
Fascinating how these things get engraved in stone. Many of the good players in Toronto have always played them and known them as 1 and 2. Patrick Ourceau tells me however he learned them as Fr. Kelly played them from his sources in Clare and is how he always plays them. But he is in the minority over here across the pond. They are played the same in Halifax and no doubt in Montreal and Sydney, N.S. for all I know.
Illumination appreciated.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
The Rossmore Jetty is the one *everyone* knows as Father Kelly's (according to the tunes database - I never knew it's proper title before). Presumably, when someone introduced Ben Hill (not a tune I'm familiar with - at least, not by that name) into a certain circle of musicians, the Father Kelly's that everyone already knew naturally became known as 'No.1', whilst the *other*, less common, Father Kelly's became 'No.2'.
By the way, is 'Ben Hill' a hill or a man?
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
Found the answer:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/6899
It's the former.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
Does the tune name "Ben Hill" have anything to do with our very own benhill here on the Yellow Board?
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
The tune people around here play when someone mentions Father Kelly's is a G version of the tune posted on this site as Rossmore Jetty, and posted in D. The A part is almost identical except for the key, although there are differences in the B part, as some of the things done in the G version would be too high if moved up to D in pitch. And a good tune it is! Heard it just last Sunday, leading into the Star of Munster.
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
All,
the eponymous "Father Kelly's" played around here is indeed "No.1"/aka, the rossmore jetty. Some people also play Ben Hill/no.2 with it.
I just find it interesting that the actual composer of the tunes never called his namesakes "Father Kelly's" in the first place...he clearly had a name for both! Interesting.
Also, he played them in the reverse order that "tradition" [some traditiions anyway] have adopted.
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
Interesting! Well, I have a story for next Sunday when this tune come around, thanks mtodd!
Ditto to Al, this in G, only Father Kelly's we know:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/791
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
No worries Ian.
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
I am willing to acknowledge that Vancouver is years behind Toronto (since we lost the C.P.R.), but am relieved to know that other areas are also only aware of the one Father Kelly's reel (in G).
I'll casually announce "Rossmore Jetty" at the next session, followed by the usual Flowers of Edinburgh and Sally Gardens.
Should cause quite a stir.
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by oldstrings
Re: Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
Yes, I am seriously lacking a life.
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by oldstrings
Re: Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
Oldstrings....
you'll let me know how that turns out?
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
"I just find it interesting that the actual composer of the tunes never called his namesakes "Father Kelly's" in the first place...he clearly had a name for both! Interesting."
It would seem that musicians are just better at remembering tunes than remembering their names. I've lost count of the number of tunes I've heard called 'Paddy O'Brien's', 'Sean Ryan's', 'Reavy's' etc. - They all have titles if you look hard enough, but people seem to manage without knowing them. If, as in the case of Father Kelly's, there is only one tune by that name that has achieved widespread popularity, then there is even less need for titles.
"Also, he played them in the reverse order that "tradition" [some traditiions anyway] have adopted"
Perhaps, because of the reversed numbering, some players started playing them in the opposite order. Or perhaps someone just tried in on a whim and decided they liked it better - or they simply forgot which order they normally went in.
As for the numbering, you try telling a bunch of seasoned traditional players that the they've known for years as 'Father Kelly's' is suddenly 'No.2' and the tune that goes before it, which they've never heard before, is No.1. They wouldn't have it.
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
"that the they've known for years"
...that the tune they've known for years...
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Out of order? The mystery of Fr. kelly's "1" and "2"....
I'll try that next week's session OPC...let you know how it goes. ;)
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by skin&bow
Order & numbers, in db
Please supply the name of the tune without any other information e.g. composer, setting, etc. and
please do not add numbers to the tune title.
If you don't know the name of the tune, please enter 'Gan Ainm'.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/submit/
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by Ben Steen