There's a thing my kids like to do. They hold my hands and they climb up my legs and torso, and manage to get their feet up to my shoulders and hey presto, ten feet tall.
One of the absolute beauties of this music is not just the willingness, but the open invitations, the open and helping hands of the best players that hope and wish for you to stand on their shoulders. It's beautiful.
And that feeling comes directly from those best players' remembrance of they themselves being treated the same way. The music is a human latticework of creation and respect for not only those who's shoulders people aspire to humbly and precariously perch upon, but also those whose shoulders are the aspirations of those who wish to precariously perch.
I never assume I can do anything with this music on my own. I try to humble myself before it. Humble myself before the feet, shins, knees and torsos of the best players. Aim for the shoulders, but never assume I'll ever get there.
There are people who go out on their own, of course. There are no rules, do what you want. But if you do, remember that all you'll be doing is kicking at the toenails of giants.
Lovely analogy Llig except that my kids are at the age where instead of doing the trick you describe they just walk all over me and drain my pockets.
What I would like to know is what happened to make you start to think about this and get so philosophical? Just curious.
Yep, nice analogy. By the way, my four year old granddaughter asked me if I could give her a whistle the other day, she says she wants to play one. And so it goes....
I cannot help but think our repetitious discussions lead us back to the same dilemma Swift had when he made a modest proposal.
Is there enough to feed everyone?
That's true for most of use Llig, but many of those giants because giants
because they did go off on a tangent. They became great, not toenail kickers.
Concertina seems to be developing fast. The greatest players are all
alive today. There are always new ways to play fiddle.
Tin whistle has turned into something Micho Russell wouldn't recognise.
But nobody can call Liz Carroll, Tola Custy, Martin Hayes, Brian Finnegan
or numerous unheard of local session geniusses "toe kickers".
Hup - I want to emphasise the thing you wrote - I hope you don't mind that I have corrected a blooper so that it becomes completely clear (correction is "became" instead of "because")
Hup wrote:
"That's true for most of use Llig, but many of those giants became giants because they did go off on a tangent. They became great, not toenail kickers."
This is just what I was thinking about as I walked into work - there are some (perhaps many) on this board who seek to emulate their heros, while failing to realise that their heroes' heroism lay in making their own trail and not in following anyone else.
Certainly this is not the case for all the mustard boarders, nor for all the heroes, but so often we see on here someone asking "How can I be more like X who was famous for not being like anyone else?" - and then disappearing in a puff of logic.
Yes, a lot of the great players took decidedly sideways steps. But every last one of them who are any good climbed the filigree laticework of other giants' shoulders first. You don't get to be great by eschewing the legacy of the music. You get to be great by first understanding and humbling yourself to the body of work.
My daughter used to always climb on my shoulders when I was playing the banjo. She'd pull my hair, ears and nose trying to put me off. Or sometimes just sit there and dance.
- Chris ignoring the metaphor in favour of nostalgia
Well stated Michael, well stated indeed! I believe this holds true for more of life then the music although one need be discriminating as to which shoulders they wish to stand upon. Our species, to my way of thinking anyway, can do with a bit more humility.
With little ladders up to them, and non-slip platforms on top and a nice sort of alloy fence with a mahogany rail on top all round the platform so we can stand safely.
How can I stand on the shoulders of giants when one of the people who influenced me is Vertically Challenged?
I have been influenced by many other musicians but I have always tried to be myself and play this music in my own way instead of trying to imitate someone else whom I am not meant to be or designed to be.
The knack is not to "try" to be yourself. You shouldn't have to force it. If you are relaxed enough, how can you not be yourself. How can you not play it in your own way.
But this thread is about how the music will always be bigger than you. Accept it, relish it, enjoy it, learn it, respect it, use it. Humble yourself before it. It was invented by many many great and some not-so-great people. Never ever assume that your addition to it could ever come anywhere near the collective mass of all those other generations of additions.
Great thread.
I think you could go so far as to say that it would be hard to appreciate the innovations of Liz Carroll, Martin Hayes, Brian Finnegan without first understanding the filagree latticework that they are branching from. The beauty in their music comes from what they have done with the tradition. They were standiing on someone else's shoulders when they drank from the well.
And showaddydadito----while you're putting rails up there onthe platform DO NOT forget public restrooms...please!
Thanks for that LL. I have to imagine something happened over the weekend that affected you thus. As one who is beginning his climb I appreciate your thoughts, and I appreciate those who have offered their shoulders at my local session thus far, doing things like making sure they play a set that includes tunes that I know, plectrum players making sure I can see their fretboards, making suggestions of tune names I should learn or recordings or virtual sessions I should find, etc. There will always be grumps that groan at the presence of beginners, but it's the enlightened ones who understand that the coming and going of players and sessions is how the music not only stays alive, but moves and grows.
It is possible to play this music in your own way while also fitting into the traditions and customs and standards that have developed over the years. It is somewhat like trying to keep your balance on a high-wire or tightrope with no safety net underneath to catch you if you fall off. In addition, your viewpoint or perspective is different if you are a backup musician/sideman instead of a melody player.
No matter what type or genre of music you are playing, it will always be bigger than any one individual musician who plays it. It doesn't make any difference whether or not you are trying to play within the customs, traditions, and standards of that particular genre or whether or not you are trying to push the envelope and bend and break the rules.
Brian Sewell is fabulous (and a SW19 man to boot). His arts reviews in the Evening Standard were fantastic and educational. Unfortunately since his illness earlier this year and the Russian take over and subsequent "going free" of the paper, Mr Sewell doesn't regularly write for them now.
I picked up a fiddle only (!) ten years ago. My trudge up the learning curve has been in the company of some very kind musicians, giants both official and unofficial.
What makes these folks stand out as musicians and mentors is that they love the music so much that egos and competitive weirdness just doesn’t seem to factor in to their actions. They may slag the bodhran guy, but only because he is in on the joke. Instead of rolling eyes when someone calls for “that” tune, they teach something new and cool. Your reels sound like c**p? Here’s how to make it better.
That is why I still do this. Oh, and there's beer....
Keep this up Llig and you'll have your own pop psychology book too!
Be humble and you will remain entire.
The sages do not display themselves, therefore they shine.
They do not approve themselves, therefore they are noted.
They do not praise themselves, therefore they have merit.
They do not glory in themselves, therefore they excel.
Beer... That's why I don't stress the little things, like how quickly I'm picking up tunes or how much I play at my local session. I get a free beer delivered periodically just for holding an instrument in my hands and playing it every once in a while. So, if I can have my pint and sit in the circle and play what I know and listen the watch the rest of the time, what are my cares? I only feel bad if it's a particularly crowded session and space is at a premium. Then again, I got there nice and early and got my seat, so again, what are my cares?
"When people in a session ask if I know a tune, I shrug my shoulders and say try me (I hardly know the names of any tunes) They play a tune and if I know it, great. If I don't know it, I'll know it by the time time they've finished (or atleast kind of know it ... and I'll know it better the next time they play it)
Where I play, this is STILL the standard way to learn tunes."
A good question ,whose shoulders . I think its a question that can only fully be answered in retrospect . Who influenced you the most by the time you die or stop playing
However the question whose shoulders is it definitly not is less difficult.
........
Hats of to the giants (and dwarves) who willingly hoist us up onto their shoulders. I've met a few of them in my 10 years or so on the Irish Trad scene. As a fair-to-middlin' player myself, I would like to be able to say that I try my best to follow their example, by passing on what I have learned to less experienced players - this is often a rewarding experience in itself. But, I admit to also sometimes feeling the frustration of being held back by players less accomplished (or less familiar with the particular musical genre) than myself and longing for the company of some better players to help me to play to my full potential - which is probably the source of much of the perceived 'snobbery' that is often pinned on 'good' musicians, but often seems to be absent from the really 'great' ones. I suppose that you have reached the pinnacle of greatness when your playing is strong enough to carry the music by itself, and to carry any number of other musicians of any ability with it, without it's quality being compromised.
I pointed it out, Michael... I would love to hear you wax eloquently and humbly on about giant bodhran players too... but I suspect they're excluded based on your previous rants.
As Mr Bliss so correctly pointed out, unlike playing tunes, playing a simple frame drum even to the highest standard does not require the knowledge of succsesive generations.
Anyway, get off my lovely thread. What a shame that you wish to hijack it into yet another feckin bodhran thread. If you want another bodhran thread, start one yourself. This is the last thing I'll say on the issue.
A lovely thread. The image immediately reminded me of the symbolic human castles that the Catalans like to make. I found this video and really enjoyed it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41rz5RtdUY0&feature=related
In this case however the younger, weaker participants stand above, but not on, the shoulders of the giants, and the latticework eventually tumbles down.
"As Mr Bliss so correctly pointed out, unlike playing tunes, playing a simple frame drum even to the highest standard does not require the knowledge of succsesive generations."
So of the instruments that have become part of the tradition, which ones are excluded from this thread... just so we know what not to mention. Guitars, pianos, bouzoukis, banjos, fiddles, flutes concertinas? Remember now, they all were introduced and became accepted along the way at some stage.
Sorry, I should have said "playing the simple frame drum along to traditional Irish diddley tunes even to the highest standard does not require the knowledge of succsesive generations".
I think its difficult to learn Irish music in today's musical and cultural climate where ego is everything. As I've been learning, I've had to come to terms with my competitiveness and how detrimental it was to learning and how tense it made me etc. So any metaphor like this is extremely useful in order to help me rewire myself and the way I approach the music. Humility is extremely important, and I believe that any worthwhile achievement requires alot of it.
So Ionannas, regarding this bodhran stuff, you should remember that some people join this site to read and reflect upon thoughtful posts and contributions. Dragging up old vendettas and long-dead arguments really poisons the well, and is distracting and confusing for anyone who wants to learn something or articulate a thoughtful response. So when you write "Lovely, an "Im so humble thread great stuff. Keep it up." why should I have to judge whether that's sarcastic or not? Am I supposed to trawl through your previous posts?
Sorry Quinno, yes of course you are right, It was said in jest. Yes somewhat sarcastic because humble is certainly not a word i would associate with llig! I simply dont believe he is at all.
Ego is nothing, in irish music, not everything.Anyone who has spent time around the scene in Ireland would know how Alien the whole Idea is in relation to trad. The best players in the world sit in with you or I, no ego involved . I suppose some people do become attached to material achievemets such as playing a musical instrument, because however good you are ,there is always someone better than you and in the bigger scheme of things its quite irrelevant how much you achieve in something like music. . What matters, IMO is how you are as an individual, how you relate to the people in your life, this is Important , your relationship with your kids, your parents, your friends. All else palls into insignificance.
Any art studied to a high level can entrap the unwary into a sense of superiority, especially a 'big fish in a small pond' But at this point the openings to progress close up. So to retain a beginers mind, remain open minded offers far more posssibility for personal improvement. Closed minded ness like we often see here is self defeating.
Yes refer to what has been done in the past build upon it internalsie it , but forge your own path.
"Anyone who has spent time around the scene in Ireland would know how Alien the whole Idea is in relation to trad."
That's not true.
There are cocks everywhere, in every genre of music, and traditional music isn't unique to this. There are ego's on a feckin website about trad, so where you get the idea that ego is nothing in real life?
It's not true.
You're not originally Irish are you?
(Not that it makes any difference, but you're not - are you?)
'Your' path is ego. 'My' path is ego. This is his point.
Humility is not seeking 'your' or 'my' path. We're inconsequential. That's ego. Humilty says 'who cares about my path?' It's not necessary. It's ego to strive to make your mark or forge your path, it's ego before the music, which I'm fairly sure is his whole point here.
(my last post appears to have gone AWOL. here is a 2nd bash apologies if a duplication occurs)
showaddydadito:
My dandruff comment was a joke based on Llig's observation that he was standing on the shoulders of giants. It wasn't aimed at Llig per se, I'd have made the comment about whoever made the opening post.
I doubt llig is sensitive enough to have taken offense. But just in case:
I dont think so SWFL, Humility is about being open minded, open eyed. These things alone instil humility, how could they not?. Arrogance is about Closed mindedness. Arrogant closed minded people say that they do it right, and others wrong, its about putting other people down or other instruments down, In doing so they seek to elevate themselves. The Bodhran example is just classic Ego Bull;To somehow attempt in create a hierarchy of instruments is typical ego Arrogance. The superior fiddle and the lowly bodhran. The superior holier than thou ' ear learners' vs the 'dots learner'. The 'my style is better than your style', the 'Im so humble'. Its typical ego attachment. This is probably one reason why the OP and I get on so well.
Inconsequential in what way SWFL? Miss Lonely hearts had it above. This music comes from the little people. Just by portraying oneself as ' resting on the shoulders of Giants' is typical ego arrogance;'' Im up here looking down on you other toe nail kickers'' Its hilarious except that he probably believes it! Just like he believes he has the Salamanca right and Bobby Casey and Tommy Peoples play it wrong?! That is just typical.
The music is only played by people, we are all people . You can seek to elevate some players above others but we are all just Humans, we are all the little people.
Yes I suppose you are right Hugo, but perhaps it depends on who you hang out? with I make it a principle not to hang out with negative ego trippers so the types of sessions I sit in are universally with decent , good natured, pleasant, friendly, types. Perhaps Im just fortunate with my friends and acquaintances and the sessions I play in. But in general IME there is very little of the kind of arrogance displayed here, in the trad world I enjoy being part of.
Yes I suppose my generalisation was rather broad! but it certainly applies to the guys and Gals I like to play with.
Overall an interesting thread. Not interesting because of the general tone of the responses but rather because of the restraint with which LL answered the usual collection of nits. The urge to "make the music one's own", that I've heard so many punters extol, only comes after the music has claimed you body and soul and you no longer think about being an individual in the face of the enormous body of work -- of which you are just a tiny fragment.
"A curmudgeon's reputation for malevolence is undeserved. They're neither warped nor evil at heart. They don't hate mankind, just mankind's absurdities. They're just as sensitive and soft-hearted as the next guy, but they hide their vulnerability beneath a crust of misanthropy. They ease the pain by turning hurt into humor. . . . . . They attack maudlinism because it devalues genuine sentiment. . . . . . Nature, having failed to equip them with a servicable denial mechanism, has endowed them with astute perception and sly wit.
Curmudgeons are mockers and debunkers whose bitterness is a symptom rather than a disease. They can't compromise their standards and can't manage the suspension of disbelief necessary for feigned cheerfulness. Their awareness is a curse.
Perhaps curmudgeons have gotten a bad rap in the same way that the messenger is blamed for the message: They have the temerity to comment on the human condition without apology. They not only refuse to applaud mediocrity, they howl it down with morose glee. Their versions of the truth unsettle us, and we hold it against them, even though they soften it with humor."
I hang around with the people I play with, so there is none of that bull. However to say its not that prevalent in Ireland is a lie.
It's everywhere....
As is heads thinking they know players, and sucking up, and being on first name term best mates vibe, which is equally deluded.
Ionannas, I think, as usual with you two, that you seem to be arguing over nothing, really.
I don't recall Llig saying that Tommy Peoples plays the Salamanca wrong, but I'd be more than happy to be educated on that.
I like when you said "It's about how you are as an individual" but then there was this making your mark on the music bit, or forging your own path.
I can't imagine anyone of these 'giants' we're individually thinking of setting out to 'make their mark on the music'. It just seems totally out of character to the music itself. In fact, I’d have to say that I think they would have the very same mindset Llig laid out in the original post on this thread.
He’s basically trying to explain how he got to where he did. I concur. People enjoy playing with me, they seek my instruction, and I anchor sessions. Woo pee dee doo. Do I get an award? A cookie?
Why do they want to make music with me and all that jazz? I don’t know, I hope (ego?) it’s because I am doing it somewhat well, and that I’m a nice friendly fella who makes goofy jokes with a big smile, but all I can say for sure is that I have always approached this music in that exact way Llig is describing. It’s all I can truly control, the rest I let fall where it may.
Its no a lie Hugo, mistaken perhaps, But you say its everywhere, except with you and your crowd? Hmm I diont think it is everywhere and In my experience it is not.
Its not a lie Hugo, Its my opinion Which I am entitled to. Disagree all you like but please dont call me a liar because I am not.
Yet another good thread gone bad. Here I thought a causticity-free thread was a possibility. Musicians, for better or worse, will never grow up. Myself included.
Of course you are entitled to your opinions Ionannas however eronious and misguided (although not everything you say is completely unreasonable). What you are not allowed to do, and what I think puts a lot of people on here off you, is to willfully and consistantly misrepresent anything anyone else says and twist it to your own bitter arguments.
For starters Llig never said he was sitting on the shoulders of Giants. What he was saying was that was what he saw as the aim of people learning this music to learn from the "greats" and in so doing clamber higher up in terms of ability. It is the exact opposite of ego. It is saying that you can not and should not try to get anywhere in this music by ignoring the examples of those who are better and who have gone before. As someone who insists on mentioning Bobby Casey et al any chance you get this is not something you should disagree about.
"Anyone who has spent time around the scene in Ireland would know how Alien the whole Idea is in relation to trad."
Sorry Lon.
Sincere apologies. I was not accusing you of being a liar. Let me try and re phrase. You are not a liar, but your over generalization above is an untruth.
I don't experience it, as you don't, but to say it doesn't happen is an untruth.
Consider this:
A homophobe could generalize, saying all gays are camp.
Its an untruth (like the ego idea is untrue) , but the homophobe is entitled to their opinion, as you are to yours.
On top of that its a little naiive. Hence my assertation that you aren't in fact Irish at all. (again not that it matters...)
***
"But you say its everywhere, except with you and your crowd?"
This in fact IS a lie. I never said "except" any where. I never eluded to that, in fact I agreed with you in the original post.
Shall I call you a deliverer of untruths, and a part time liar?
PS - I know what you are like...So,
to clarify - I am not comparing you to a homophobe, just using it as an example of an untruth based on a misinformed stereotype.
..and I don't give a sh1t if you are Irish or not, just thinking that maybe this idealistic view of the Irish scene, and Ireland in general has something to do with your inability to accept other people's opinions. (That aren't Frankie, tommy, Lizzo, Cranno, etc...)
I agree that To aspire to play like our role models is a good thing no doubt, Yes your right, on re reading his post I see he did not say specifically that he was up there but I certainly did not and have never ever misrepresented any ones position willfully. unlike some who do it all the time specifically to bolster their own ego., but the toenail kicker bit is still rather suspect ego stuff is it not? if we agree with llig we are humble and if we dont we are just toenail kickers! LOL.
I am sorry I certainly didnt mean to divert this thread and I dont think it has gone bad, just moved from a 'self congratulatory how humble' we are thread to one that might inspire some real honest self reflection? perhaps not. I suppose it is rather unlikely , sigh.
SWFL making your mark is not something I said, and is very different to forging your own path. Making your own way in life is what adults do. Blindly copying and obeying is what small children do. Its rather unfortunate that there seem to be so many people who dont have the courage or inspiration to go their own way., but rather blindly follow the blind.
Anyhow see ya.
A funny thing happened. I went to thesession.org for some good old belligerent argumentation and a civil conversation broke out. No, wait, that was a dream.
And for a minute I thought you were apologising! How is it egotistical to say you can strive to be like your idols or you can not bother trying, disregard everything you can learn from them and just "make your own way"? I am sure you wouldn't be in that second camp Ion. That would be a silly position to take so again I can't see why you are arguing the matter.
I thought it was a nice analogy from Llig. Not everything he says has to be part of a war with you.
showaddydadito:
>a bit of a cross post there - I was not referring to your post >about dandruff, but the general tenor of some of the previous >few posts.
>fancy a pint?
Thanks for the clarification. Thing is my earlier post could have been read as insulting rather than joking. But it was the later that was intedned.
Humility is humility, whether you're talking about ITM or jazz or carpentry. I know I'm a novice, no matter how many times I say I'm not new to Irish music, which I'm not, but sessionry is entirely different than playing some Irish songs like I did years ago. I'm sure when I'm still participating in sessions in 2 years I'll still feel like mostly a novice. I feel that way any time I post here, but I do it anyway because I appreciate the input, and I've developed a few layers to my skin that weren't there before and I can take it. When I post something that is naive, or ill-conceived, or insensitive to something cultural of which I'm not aware, and I get called on it, there's really nothing I can do but respectfully try to learn and grow. There's really no need to have hurt feelings or get into p*ssing contests and argue over things that mean nearly nothing at best. That, to me, is all humility is, and it has little to do with it being over ITM, or jazz, or carpentry. However, I'll say it again, musicians are a childlike lot, myself not excluded, and sometimes fights break out on the playground, but, like children, most of us rub our skinned knees and bruised cheeks and keep playing. So, I guess in all there's really nothing wrong with this scenario, and there's no need to grow up. All is well. Humility is still a nice thing to have though, and it doesn't require any bowing or scraping.
All bickering and instrument hierarchy aside... my favorite quote regarding Irish trad is: "The music is bigger than any one of us." I can't recall where I heard this nor who said it, but it continues to reverberate through my experiences playing trad. I think THAT'S the giant whose shoulders we are climbing.
my favorite quote regarding Irish trad is: "The music is bigger than any one of us." I can't recall where I heard this nor who said it, but it continues to reverberate through my experiences playing trad. I think THAT'S the giant whose shoulders we are climbing.
Of course the giants of which I refer is the music and not any individual player. That's the whole bloody point of it. That's why it's "giants" not "giant".
But the music itself does not exist in books or on recordings or in some mysteriously ethereal other world. And nor can it exist within any individual, no matter how much of a giant you think them. It exists in the hearts and minds of all those who created and continue to create it. It is a collective consciousness. "The music is a human latticework of creation and respect".
And this is why, if you don't respect and try to understand it as a whole, If you feel that you can discard any of it and want to make the effort to forge your own path, if you feel the need to deconstruct it and reconstruct it in your own image - especially when someone has taken the time to sit down with you and show you it - then the best you could ever hope to do with it would be to kick at its toenails.
it's along the lines of what i meant when (in dlunney's ' . . .ITM: My thesis' thread of oct 11th) i referred to 'the core' of this music 'not being touched on many plains' as it's already in the souls of those keeping this 'giant' alive _ i see it as 'one' huge human entity, her palms 'spread lovingly around the globe'
'The Giant shall rise, the Giant shall rise with the moon'
Michael writes: "Of course the giants of which I refer is the music and not any individual player. That's the whole bloody point of it. That's why it's "giants" not "giant"."
Michael says in the opening statement: "One of the absolute beauties of this music is not just the willingness, but the open invitations, the open and helping hands of the best players that hope and wish for you to stand on their shoulders. It's beautiful."
Sorry Michael, maybe I assumed wrong but it appeared to me you were referring to players themselves and not the music.
not quite the same topic, but I came across this flannery o'connor quote today...
"Art never responds to the wish to make it democratic; it is not for everybody; it is only for those who are willing to undergo the effort needed to understand it. We hear a great deal about humility being required to lower oneself, but it requires an equal humility and a real love of the truth to raise oneself and by hard labor to acquire higher standards"
so there you go - both giants and giant-climbers are needed!
I don't see it as a latticework, more a maze filled with quantum jumps and micro/macroscopic pathways of buzzing bright electrons which jump the musical synapses and spark quiet revelation instantaneously. Those giants whose shoulders we stand on are nodes in this multi-dimensional musical universe and our perception of them and their music, like all who play the music are constantly in flux (like the tunes themselves); they change according to when we're listening, our mood, our degree of concentration. We could pass through the same node a thousand times and one moment hear something different that sets us on a new path; a note held a microsecond longer here, a cut there, a molecular subpulse of rhythm in a much-loved phrase etc that previously hadn't jolted a synapse into life. Once the jump is made we're away and the whole universe is altered subtly; we will never be the same again.
In the session, on a recording or deep in the neuron networks of our musical selves as we recall preformances or other transient moments of musical enlightenment the giants on whose shoulders we stand are forever showing us the possibilites; infinite routes to the transcendence that this incredible music allows us to experience. That demands the highest respect.
Bliss: I have alerted Dave to the kind comments on this thread, I think the Denis you and Showaddy are talking about are not the same chap, our Den is a mighty bodhran player and singer beloved of the Macc Irish but was not in Mayo as far as I know.
All that gobbledegook may well be happeneing in my subconcious brain, but it's the connections with the people, the tradition, that are important. Without that all you have is you own isolated improvisations.
The sentiments of the original post are wonderful. I've only been playing a few years but I haven't forgotten the generosity of some great musicians, some of them notable members here, who first played tunes with me and encouraged me.
Sadly, I have recently encountered an impatient attitude towards beginners in sessions, which has shocked me. These musicians have climbed up the giants and want to pull the ladder up after them. Thankfully they are in the minority
Ha ha ha very droll . (The bodhran playing's going fine by the way but I am much more interested in the fiddling.)
Funnily enough this impatience with beginners has not been directed at me (at least not overtly). Although I have learnt enough about this music to know I will always feel like a beginner.
I refer to the sniffy attitude of some middling players that a session might not be good enough for them, that's all.
I think "climbing" is the wrong word, the wrong way to go about it. If you feel like you are climbing then yes, you probably don't want people dragging you down. And it can also be sore on the people you are trying to climb up.
The best way is to not be making too much of an effort to climb yourself. Just relax, work at it a bit, but also allow yourself to be pulled up. It's about listening
And remember, there is a thing that all the better players have learned, and that is that you can learn as much, if not more, by just listening and not trying to join in all the time. So it can get irritating when they meet people who haven't yet learned this.
Listening I think implies a bit of humility -- but it also indicates engagement. Oddly, people who insist on playing everything all the time are often not listening to the ebb and flow of what's going on among the musicians around them....so they'll follow some set of tunes with something totally inappropriate or play their own set of tunes that no one else plays [indicating that they haven't listened to the kinds of tunes previously played in previous sessions]. And so on.
So replace my "people who are still climbing and " with "people who are climbing" ? Climbing is part of the analogy in use. Does plodding steadily uphill count ?
That was a marvellous evocation of the nature of the cosmos you wrote up there. Reading it, I was transported to some big landscape, the Trail of the Lonesome Pine or Yellowstone or somewhere equally preposterous, watching the endless mutations of twilight colour and light and shade pulsate through the tops of monstrous conifers, little bugs flying here and there, none of it actually doing me any harm though all of it impersonal and inedible. I am humming "A Very Cellular Song" by the Incredible String Band and at the same time pondering the wise words of Chief Two-Grizzlies-Mating about, sort of, the Earth and stuff. A large morose animal crunches wood underfoot as he goes to get a drink. I see owls' faces around me. Some bird flutes out-of-tune nearby. Visitors barge close by me with appalling insensitivity.
When I next go to a session, the last four sentences of the above paragraph are what I actually encounter there, while all the nice lofty pulsating interconnected cosmic stuff has fled.
Maybe we should try to remember that we are the messenger instead of the message itself (speaking of humility and keeping your ego restrained and under control).
It is good to listen to older and more experienced musicians playing music that you like so you can learn how to play it properly but you are not the person whom you are listening to on a recording or at a live performance or at a session.
We are all unique individuals who are going to hear music differently and play it differently when we try to reproduce it.
I guess the problem is how do you reconcile your individuality with the standards, customs, and traditions of the music which you are trying to play because you like the music and you enjoy playing it with your friends?
This is why I used the image of trying to keep my balance on a tightrope or high-wire with no safety net underneath no matter whether or not I am sober or drunk.
We are marching in the light of God,
We are marching in the light of God;
We are marching in the light of God,
We are marching in the light of God;
We are marching,
We are marching - O!,
We are marching in the light of God;
We are marching,
We are marching - O!,
We are marching in the light of God
This was not written by Mike Heron
There are several other verses, rather similar to the above.
I've probably got them if anyone wants them
It is traditionally sung over and over again till people stop
fauxcelt, I don't recognise the music of which you speak.
You say, "the problem is how do you reconcile your individuality with the standards, customs, and traditions of the music?" There is no problem that needs reconciliation because the tradition is to express your self.
"We are the messenger instead of the message". Not really. there is no message in the music, it's not like we preach when we play. And besides, the music is in people, it's part of them, it's not separate.
"Trying to keep my balance on a tightrope or high-wire with no safety net ". The sooner you stop being scared of it, the better you'll play it.
"I don't recognize the music of which you speak"
You probably don't recognize it because I was speaking of music in general instead of a specific type, style, or genre of music. In my experience of playing music for approximately forty-three years now, I have frequently learned how to really play various types of music properly by listening to many older and more experienced musicians (including some who have been playing this music longer than I have been alive). If different musicians play the same piece differently, I compare their versions and think about it.
Yes I am trying to express myself through music but I would like to at least try to stay within the traditions and customs of this music.
The message is the music itself and how delightful and wonderful it is both to listen to and to play. I see myself as the messenger who is trying to transmit the music to the audience and/or the other musicians.
"Scared?" If there was any fear and/or if I was afraid of the risk of making a fool out of myself in public by trying to play music, I would have quit playing music in public many years ago and gone into some less dishonest line of work such as politics or selling used cars.
I used the image of a tightrope or high-wire because that is how I feel sometimes. If I really was afraid, I wouldn't keep getting back up on the tightrope or high-wire again and again and again and take the risk of falling off. Instead, I would just stay at home and play only for myself and never play an instrument in public.
the shoulders of giants
the shoulders of giants
There's a thing my kids like to do. They hold my hands and they climb up my legs and torso, and manage to get their feet up to my shoulders and hey presto, ten feet tall.
One of the absolute beauties of this music is not just the willingness, but the open invitations, the open and helping hands of the best players that hope and wish for you to stand on their shoulders. It's beautiful.
And that feeling comes directly from those best players' remembrance of they themselves being treated the same way. The music is a human latticework of creation and respect for not only those who's shoulders people aspire to humbly and precariously perch upon, but also those whose shoulders are the aspirations of those who wish to precariously perch.
I never assume I can do anything with this music on my own. I try to humble myself before it. Humble myself before the feet, shins, knees and torsos of the best players. Aim for the shoulders, but never assume I'll ever get there.
There are people who go out on their own, of course. There are no rules, do what you want. But if you do, remember that all you'll be doing is kicking at the toenails of giants.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by ...
Re: the shoulders of giants
If ITM was Zen, the giant would kick back, conferring instant enlightenment.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by nicholas
Re: the shoulders of giants
("giants"...)
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by nicholas
Re: the shoulders of giants
So far, so good.
cheers!
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: the shoulders of giants
Lovely analogy Llig except that my kids are at the age where instead of doing the trick you describe they just walk all over me and drain my pockets.
What I would like to know is what happened to make you start to think about this and get so philosophical? Just curious.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Donough
Re: the shoulders of giants
Fair play Llig ~ you often speak of humility.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: the shoulders of giants
Is it Guinness , whiskey or just PMT?
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Red Robin
Re: the shoulders of giants
Very licely done, sir. I admire your thoughts and I agree with you.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: the shoulders of giants
Yep, nice analogy. By the way, my four year old granddaughter asked me if I could give her a whistle the other day, she says she wants to play one. And so it goes....
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: the shoulders of giants
I cannot help but think our repetitious discussions lead us back to the same dilemma Swift had when he made a modest proposal.
Is there enough to feed everyone?
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: the shoulders of giants
Of course none of this applies if they play bodhran.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: the shoulders of giants
That's true for most of use Llig, but many of those giants because giants
because they did go off on a tangent. They became great, not toenail kickers.
Concertina seems to be developing fast. The greatest players are all
alive today. There are always new ways to play fiddle.
Tin whistle has turned into something Micho Russell wouldn't recognise.
But nobody can call Liz Carroll, Tola Custy, Martin Hayes, Brian Finnegan
or numerous unheard of local session geniusses "toe kickers".
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Hup
Re: the shoulders of giants
Most of "us" of course - I wasn't trying to say "youse"
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Hup
Re: the shoulders of giants
I totally agree Llig although it's often lots of dwarfs as well
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: the shoulders of giants
I thought we got this music from the *little* people....
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Will Harmon
Re: the shoulders of giants
Hup - I want to emphasise the thing you wrote - I hope you don't mind that I have corrected a blooper so that it becomes completely clear (correction is "became" instead of "because")
Hup wrote:
"That's true for most of use Llig, but many of those giants became giants because they did go off on a tangent. They became great, not toenail kickers."
This is just what I was thinking about as I walked into work - there are some (perhaps many) on this board who seek to emulate their heros, while failing to realise that their heroes' heroism lay in making their own trail and not in following anyone else.
Certainly this is not the case for all the mustard boarders, nor for all the heroes, but so often we see on here someone asking "How can I be more like X who was famous for not being like anyone else?" - and then disappearing in a puff of logic.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by showaddydadito
Re: the shoulders of giants
Yes, a lot of the great players took decidedly sideways steps. But every last one of them who are any good climbed the filigree laticework of other giants' shoulders first. You don't get to be great by eschewing the legacy of the music. You get to be great by first understanding and humbling yourself to the body of work.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by ...
Re: the shoulders of giants
My daughter used to always climb on my shoulders when I was playing the banjo. She'd pull my hair, ears and nose trying to put me off. Or sometimes just sit there and dance.
- Chris ignoring the metaphor in favour of nostalgia
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: the shoulders of giants
Spot on Llig.
However - 'filigree latticwork' ?
Maybe take a bit of tobacco with it mate.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by showaddydadito
Re: the shoulders of giants
Oh look, neither of us can spellll.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by showaddydadito
Re: the shoulders of giants
ha ha, yeah. And you'll have travel a long long way indeed to find a more preposterous example of insane tautology than "filigree latticework".
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by ...
Re: the shoulders of giants
aaaggh ... have "to" travel
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by ...
Re: the shoulders of giants
though I was going to add ...
You only get to stay great by continuing to understand, cross refer, include and humble your own playing to the wider body of work.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by ...
Re: the shoulders of giants
A kitten I had once used to climb up my bare legs so she could sit on my shoulder, and then knead my hair. I wonder what she was aspiring to.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by ethical blend
Re: the shoulders of giants
Michael - it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that you are becoming the Brian Sewell of Irish Music.
I say this as a friend.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by showaddydadito
Re: the shoulders of giants
...a catatonic state...
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by biggus dave
Re: the shoulders of giants
Brian Sewell rocks.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by nicholas
Re: the shoulders of giants
That is the whole principle of bodhran playing------give the melody wonks some broad shoulders to stand on.
Well done llig.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: the shoulders of giants
Well stated Michael, well stated indeed! I believe this holds true for more of life then the music although one need be discriminating as to which shoulders they wish to stand upon. Our species, to my way of thinking anyway, can do with a bit more humility.
Thank you for a humble start to my day!
All the best!
Peace,
Ed
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by ejsant
Re: the shoulders of giants
More humility?
It's more shoulders we need.
With little ladders up to them, and non-slip platforms on top and a nice sort of alloy fence with a mahogany rail on top all round the platform so we can stand safely.
Perhaps an ice cream vendor up there too?
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by showaddydadito
Re: the shoulders of giants
Maybe one of the Italian members can bring the ice cream.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: the shoulders of giants
" the Brian Sewell of Irish Music."
yes, " llewes nairb " does have a certain 'ring' to it
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by domhnall.
Re: the shoulders of giants
How can I stand on the shoulders of giants when one of the people who influenced me is Vertically Challenged?
I have been influenced by many other musicians but I have always tried to be myself and play this music in my own way instead of trying to imitate someone else whom I am not meant to be or designed to be.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: the shoulders of giants
Vertically Challenged? Easier to get up on their shoulders then. (And s/he might just be a very small giant.)
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by ethical blend
Re: the shoulders of giants
The knack is not to "try" to be yourself. You shouldn't have to force it. If you are relaxed enough, how can you not be yourself. How can you not play it in your own way.
But this thread is about how the music will always be bigger than you. Accept it, relish it, enjoy it, learn it, respect it, use it. Humble yourself before it. It was invented by many many great and some not-so-great people. Never ever assume that your addition to it could ever come anywhere near the collective mass of all those other generations of additions.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by ...
Re: the shoulders of giants
. . . . . .
and . . . . . . breathe . . . . .
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by showaddydadito
Re: the shoulders of giants
But, Michael, apart from all the jokes and frivolous things said by me (and others), you're right - it's a big whole to be a little part of.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by showaddydadito
Re: the shoulders of giants
no giants, please
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: the shoulders of giants
Great thread.
I think you could go so far as to say that it would be hard to appreciate the innovations of Liz Carroll, Martin Hayes, Brian Finnegan without first understanding the filagree latticework that they are branching from. The beauty in their music comes from what they have done with the tradition. They were standiing on someone else's shoulders when they drank from the well.
And showaddydadito----while you're putting rails up there onthe platform DO NOT forget public restrooms...please!
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by y-nought
Re: the shoulders of giants
Thanks for that LL. I have to imagine something happened over the weekend that affected you thus. As one who is beginning his climb I appreciate your thoughts, and I appreciate those who have offered their shoulders at my local session thus far, doing things like making sure they play a set that includes tunes that I know, plectrum players making sure I can see their fretboards, making suggestions of tune names I should learn or recordings or virtual sessions I should find, etc. There will always be grumps that groan at the presence of beginners, but it's the enlightened ones who understand that the coming and going of players and sessions is how the music not only stays alive, but moves and grows.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Jimmy B
is everyone high?
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: the shoulders of giants
I keep a tank of ether next to my desk at work.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: the shoulders of giants
By the way, I can't stand Brian Sewell, I think he's a pompous arse ....
.... oh .................. I get it now ......
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by ...
Re: the shoulders of giants
"They were standiing on someone else's shoulders when they drank from the well."
Must have had some bloody long straws then!
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: the shoulders of giants
Thanks, I have been considering painting my room the same colour Jeremy uses here. Just wanted to be sure I will still feel at home. Blue trim O.K. ?
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: the shoulders of giants
Hmmm... Orange and blue? Well I don't see why not. Those colours could be available very soon:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/r/rangers/8324603.stm
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: the shoulders of giants
Yes, Ethical Blend, this person is a small giant.
It is possible to play this music in your own way while also fitting into the traditions and customs and standards that have developed over the years. It is somewhat like trying to keep your balance on a high-wire or tightrope with no safety net underneath to catch you if you fall off. In addition, your viewpoint or perspective is different if you are a backup musician/sideman instead of a melody player.
No matter what type or genre of music you are playing, it will always be bigger than any one individual musician who plays it. It doesn't make any difference whether or not you are trying to play within the customs, traditions, and standards of that particular genre or whether or not you are trying to push the envelope and bend and break the rules.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: the shoulders of giants
on a tightrope you might not want to drink too much Guinness. ;)
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
*
sorry, Shiner Bock.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
Brian Sewell
Brian Sewell is fabulous (and a SW19 man to boot). His arts reviews in the Evening Standard were fantastic and educational. Unfortunately since his illness earlier this year and the Russian take over and subsequent "going free" of the paper, Mr Sewell doesn't regularly write for them now.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by yhaalhouse
Re: the shoulders of giants
What you all said.
I picked up a fiddle only (!) ten years ago. My trudge up the learning curve has been in the company of some very kind musicians, giants both official and unofficial.
What makes these folks stand out as musicians and mentors is that they love the music so much that egos and competitive weirdness just doesn’t seem to factor in to their actions. They may slag the bodhran guy, but only because he is in on the joke. Instead of rolling eyes when someone calls for “that” tune, they teach something new and cool. Your reels sound like c**p? Here’s how to make it better.
That is why I still do this. Oh, and there's beer....
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Michele Sims
Re: the shoulders of giants
Keep this up Llig and you'll have your own pop psychology book too!
Be humble and you will remain entire.
The sages do not display themselves, therefore they shine.
They do not approve themselves, therefore they are noted.
They do not praise themselves, therefore they have merit.
They do not glory in themselves, therefore they excel.
- Lao Tzu
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: the shoulders of giants
Beer... That's why I don't stress the little things, like how quickly I'm picking up tunes or how much I play at my local session. I get a free beer delivered periodically just for holding an instrument in my hands and playing it every once in a while. So, if I can have my pint and sit in the circle and play what I know and listen the watch the rest of the time, what are my cares? I only feel bad if it's a particularly crowded session and space is at a premium. Then again, I got there nice and early and got my seat, so again, what are my cares?
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: the shoulders of giants
Whose shoulders?
"Re: How to Rate One's Own Playing?"
July 2nd 2002 by Miss Lonelyhearts
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/692/comments#comment9955
Thanks Will! ;) seems like every time I go searching your comments jump out at me.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
. . .
"When people in a session ask if I know a tune, I shrug my shoulders and say try me (I hardly know the names of any tunes) They play a tune and if I know it, great. If I don't know it, I'll know it by the time time they've finished (or atleast kind of know it ... and I'll know it better the next time they play it)
Where I play, this is STILL the standard way to learn tunes."
Posted on July 11th 2002 by llig leahcim
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: the shoulders of giants
A good question ,whose shoulders . I think its a question that can only fully be answered in retrospect . Who influenced you the most by the time you die or stop playing
However the question whose shoulders is it definitly not is less difficult.
........
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: the shoulders of giants
Hats of to the giants (and dwarves) who willingly hoist us up onto their shoulders. I've met a few of them in my 10 years or so on the Irish Trad scene. As a fair-to-middlin' player myself, I would like to be able to say that I try my best to follow their example, by passing on what I have learned to less experienced players - this is often a rewarding experience in itself. But, I admit to also sometimes feeling the frustration of being held back by players less accomplished (or less familiar with the particular musical genre) than myself and longing for the company of some better players to help me to play to my full potential - which is probably the source of much of the perceived 'snobbery' that is often pinned on 'good' musicians, but often seems to be absent from the really 'great' ones. I suppose that you have reached the pinnacle of greatness when your playing is strong enough to carry the music by itself, and to carry any number of other musicians of any ability with it, without it's quality being compromised.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: the shoulders of giants
Saaay, is this the source of that fiddler’s shoulder problem that was discussed recently?
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: the shoulders of giants
Provided he/she is observing proper posture, and is a giant, the fiddler should be able to support several neophytes on his/her shoulders.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: the shoulders of giants
...with minimal or no discomfort.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Jimmy B
it's a 2-way street, Jimmy. We learn from each other.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: the shoulders of giants
Fair play, Random. I shudder to think that anyone is learning from me at this point, but I understand what you mean.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: the shoulders of giants
I know, it's humbling.
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: the shoulders of giants
What a load of cobblers.
My greatness is down to me, no hands up, no giants, no nothing. All my own work.
Met a load of Maccies in Mayo recently Showaddy. Might even have been you although you sound more like dave Blyth.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: the shoulders of giants
read the thread bliss, somebody (not me) already pointed out that is doesn't apply to bodhran players
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by ...
Re: the shoulders of giants
Bliss plays the mandolin llig as well as the bodhran, but whoever pointed that out was talking sh*te anyhow.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: the shoulders of giants
I pointed it out, Michael... I would love to hear you wax eloquently and humbly on about giant bodhran players too... but I suspect they're excluded based on your previous rants.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: the shoulders of giants
As Mr Bliss so correctly pointed out, unlike playing tunes, playing a simple frame drum even to the highest standard does not require the knowledge of succsesive generations.
Anyway, get off my lovely thread. What a shame that you wish to hijack it into yet another feckin bodhran thread. If you want another bodhran thread, start one yourself. This is the last thing I'll say on the issue.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by ...
Re: the shoulders of giants
A lovely thread. The image immediately reminded me of the symbolic human castles that the Catalans like to make. I found this video and really enjoyed it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41rz5RtdUY0&feature=related
In this case however the younger, weaker participants stand above, but not on, the shoulders of the giants, and the latticework eventually tumbles down.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Quinno
Re: the shoulders of giants
No Bliss - I am not Dave Blyth.
But I do spend a little time on his shoulders now and again.
I'm also not Dennis.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by showaddydadito
Re: the shoulders of giants
BB I am reminded of the scotish duo with the scary big bodhrans. I cannot remember there name but it looked like they stole them from giants.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: the shoulders of giants
"As Mr Bliss so correctly pointed out, unlike playing tunes, playing a simple frame drum even to the highest standard does not require the knowledge of succsesive generations."
So of the instruments that have become part of the tradition, which ones are excluded from this thread... just so we know what not to mention. Guitars, pianos, bouzoukis, banjos, fiddles, flutes concertinas? Remember now, they all were introduced and became accepted along the way at some stage.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: the shoulders of giants
"BB I am reminded of the scotish (sic.) duo with the scary big bodhrans. I cannot remember there name but it looked like they stole them from giants."
That would be The Corries you are thinking of. Folk legends.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: the shoulders of giants
Lovely bodhran solo here, Definitely references Indian Tabla drumming to my mind.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=004KsmKBgrY
Lovely, an ''Im so humble'' thread great stuff. Keep it up.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: the shoulders of giants
It was, of course, inspired by this post:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/22935#comment475393
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by ...
Re: the shoulders of giants
,....<< playing a simple frame drum even to the highest standard does not require the knowledge of succsesive generations.>>
Really!
The simple frame drum ;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fB0hE-YlfzQ&feature=related
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: the shoulders of giants
Sorry, I should have said "playing the simple frame drum along to traditional Irish diddley tunes even to the highest standard does not require the knowledge of succsesive generations".
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by ...
Re: the shoulders of giants
I think its difficult to learn Irish music in today's musical and cultural climate where ego is everything. As I've been learning, I've had to come to terms with my competitiveness and how detrimental it was to learning and how tense it made me etc. So any metaphor like this is extremely useful in order to help me rewire myself and the way I approach the music. Humility is extremely important, and I believe that any worthwhile achievement requires alot of it.
So Ionannas, regarding this bodhran stuff, you should remember that some people join this site to read and reflect upon thoughtful posts and contributions. Dragging up old vendettas and long-dead arguments really poisons the well, and is distracting and confusing for anyone who wants to learn something or articulate a thoughtful response. So when you write "Lovely, an "Im so humble thread great stuff. Keep it up." why should I have to judge whether that's sarcastic or not? Am I supposed to trawl through your previous posts?
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Quinno
Re: the shoulders of giants
Quinno , I would only do that as measure of how unique and universally derided his views are, if I were you.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: the shoulders of giants
Llig is the dandruff of giants
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: the shoulders of giants
It's not often we get this far through a thread before the personal abuse starts.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by showaddydadito
Re: the shoulders of giants
RamblingPF
.........or is it the epaulettes?
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by domhnall.
Re: the shoulders of giants
Sorry Quinno, yes of course you are right, It was said in jest. Yes somewhat sarcastic because humble is certainly not a word i would associate with llig! I simply dont believe he is at all.
Ego is nothing, in irish music, not everything.Anyone who has spent time around the scene in Ireland would know how Alien the whole Idea is in relation to trad. The best players in the world sit in with you or I, no ego involved . I suppose some people do become attached to material achievemets such as playing a musical instrument, because however good you are ,there is always someone better than you and in the bigger scheme of things its quite irrelevant how much you achieve in something like music. . What matters, IMO is how you are as an individual, how you relate to the people in your life, this is Important , your relationship with your kids, your parents, your friends. All else palls into insignificance.
Any art studied to a high level can entrap the unwary into a sense of superiority, especially a 'big fish in a small pond' But at this point the openings to progress close up. So to retain a beginers mind, remain open minded offers far more posssibility for personal improvement. Closed minded ness like we often see here is self defeating.
Yes refer to what has been done in the past build upon it internalsie it , but forge your own path.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: the shoulders of giants
"Anyone who has spent time around the scene in Ireland would know how Alien the whole Idea is in relation to trad."
That's not true.
There are cocks everywhere, in every genre of music, and traditional music isn't unique to this. There are ego's on a feckin website about trad, so where you get the idea that ego is nothing in real life?
It's not true.
You're not originally Irish are you?
(Not that it makes any difference, but you're not - are you?)
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Hugo Chavez
Re: the shoulders of giants
'Your' path is ego. 'My' path is ego. This is his point.
Humility is not seeking 'your' or 'my' path. We're inconsequential. That's ego. Humilty says 'who cares about my path?' It's not necessary. It's ego to strive to make your mark or forge your path, it's ego before the music, which I'm fairly sure is his whole point here.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: the shoulders of giants
(my last post appears to have gone AWOL. here is a 2nd bash apologies if a duplication occurs)
showaddydadito:
My dandruff comment was a joke based on Llig's observation that he was standing on the shoulders of giants. It wasn't aimed at Llig per se, I'd have made the comment about whoever made the opening post.
I doubt llig is sensitive enough to have taken offense. But just in case:
llig you are dandruff
we're all dandruff (on the shoulders of giants)
- chris
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: the shoulders of giants
I dont think so SWFL, Humility is about being open minded, open eyed. These things alone instil humility, how could they not?. Arrogance is about Closed mindedness. Arrogant closed minded people say that they do it right, and others wrong, its about putting other people down or other instruments down, In doing so they seek to elevate themselves. The Bodhran example is just classic Ego Bull;To somehow attempt in create a hierarchy of instruments is typical ego Arrogance. The superior fiddle and the lowly bodhran. The superior holier than thou ' ear learners' vs the 'dots learner'. The 'my style is better than your style', the 'Im so humble'. Its typical ego attachment. This is probably one reason why the OP and I get on so well.
Inconsequential in what way SWFL? Miss Lonely hearts had it above. This music comes from the little people. Just by portraying oneself as ' resting on the shoulders of Giants' is typical ego arrogance;'' Im up here looking down on you other toe nail kickers'' Its hilarious except that he probably believes it! Just like he believes he has the Salamanca right and Bobby Casey and Tommy Peoples play it wrong?! That is just typical.
The music is only played by people, we are all people . You can seek to elevate some players above others but we are all just Humans, we are all the little people.
Yes I suppose you are right Hugo, but perhaps it depends on who you hang out? with I make it a principle not to hang out with negative ego trippers so the types of sessions I sit in are universally with decent , good natured, pleasant, friendly, types. Perhaps Im just fortunate with my friends and acquaintances and the sessions I play in. But in general IME there is very little of the kind of arrogance displayed here, in the trad world I enjoy being part of.
Yes I suppose my generalisation was rather broad! but it certainly applies to the guys and Gals I like to play with.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: the shoulders of giants
Domnull:
>.........or is it the epaulettes?
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Well said
Overall an interesting thread. Not interesting because of the general tone of the responses but rather because of the restraint with which LL answered the usual collection of nits. The urge to "make the music one's own", that I've heard so many punters extol, only comes after the music has claimed you body and soul and you no longer think about being an individual in the face of the enormous body of work -- of which you are just a tiny fragment.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by David Levine
Open your mind to this ~
"A curmudgeon's reputation for malevolence is undeserved. They're neither warped nor evil at heart. They don't hate mankind, just mankind's absurdities. They're just as sensitive and soft-hearted as the next guy, but they hide their vulnerability beneath a crust of misanthropy. They ease the pain by turning hurt into humor. . . . . . They attack maudlinism because it devalues genuine sentiment. . . . . . Nature, having failed to equip them with a servicable denial mechanism, has endowed them with astute perception and sly wit.
Curmudgeons are mockers and debunkers whose bitterness is a symptom rather than a disease. They can't compromise their standards and can't manage the suspension of disbelief necessary for feigned cheerfulness. Their awareness is a curse.
Perhaps curmudgeons have gotten a bad rap in the same way that the messenger is blamed for the message: They have the temerity to comment on the human condition without apology. They not only refuse to applaud mediocrity, they howl it down with morose glee. Their versions of the truth unsettle us, and we hold it against them, even though they soften it with humor."
- JON WINOKUR
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: the shoulders of giants
Hmmm. I'm not even mediocre yet. It's a good thing I have thick skin if I'm going to be participating at this website.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: the shoulders of giants
Random -
excellent - I enjoyed that
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by domhnall.
Re: the shoulders of giants
Well,
lon, you are right there.
I hang around with the people I play with, so there is none of that bull. However to say its not that prevalent in Ireland is a lie.
It's everywhere....
As is heads thinking they know players, and sucking up, and being on first name term best mates vibe, which is equally deluded.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Hugo Chavez
Re: the shoulders of giants
Brilliant stuff Random.
Ionannas, I think, as usual with you two, that you seem to be arguing over nothing, really.
I don't recall Llig saying that Tommy Peoples plays the Salamanca wrong, but I'd be more than happy to be educated on that.
I like when you said "It's about how you are as an individual" but then there was this making your mark on the music bit, or forging your own path.
I can't imagine anyone of these 'giants' we're individually thinking of setting out to 'make their mark on the music'. It just seems totally out of character to the music itself. In fact, I’d have to say that I think they would have the very same mindset Llig laid out in the original post on this thread.
He’s basically trying to explain how he got to where he did. I concur. People enjoy playing with me, they seek my instruction, and I anchor sessions. Woo pee dee doo. Do I get an award? A cookie?
Why do they want to make music with me and all that jazz? I don’t know, I hope (ego?) it’s because I am doing it somewhat well, and that I’m a nice friendly fella who makes goofy jokes with a big smile, but all I can say for sure is that I have always approached this music in that exact way Llig is describing. It’s all I can truly control, the rest I let fall where it may.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: the shoulders of giants
Its no a lie Hugo, mistaken perhaps, But you say its everywhere, except with you and your crowd? Hmm I diont think it is everywhere and In my experience it is not.
Its not a lie Hugo, Its my opinion Which I am entitled to. Disagree all you like but please dont call me a liar because I am not.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: the shoulders of giants
Random -- Thanks for the quote.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: the shoulders of giants
Yet another good thread gone bad. Here I thought a causticity-free thread was a possibility. Musicians, for better or worse, will never grow up. Myself included.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: the shoulders of giants
Of course you are entitled to your opinions Ionannas however eronious and misguided (although not everything you say is completely unreasonable). What you are not allowed to do, and what I think puts a lot of people on here off you, is to willfully and consistantly misrepresent anything anyone else says and twist it to your own bitter arguments.
For starters Llig never said he was sitting on the shoulders of Giants. What he was saying was that was what he saw as the aim of people learning this music to learn from the "greats" and in so doing clamber higher up in terms of ability. It is the exact opposite of ego. It is saying that you can not and should not try to get anywhere in this music by ignoring the examples of those who are better and who have gone before. As someone who insists on mentioning Bobby Casey et al any chance you get this is not something you should disagree about.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: the shoulders of giants
ramblingpitchfork:
a bit of a cross post there - I was not referring to your post about dandruff, but the general tenor of some of the previous few posts.
fancy a pint?
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by showaddydadito
Re: the shoulders of giants
"Anyone who has spent time around the scene in Ireland would know how Alien the whole Idea is in relation to trad."
Sorry Lon.
Sincere apologies. I was not accusing you of being a liar. Let me try and re phrase. You are not a liar, but your over generalization above is an untruth.
I don't experience it, as you don't, but to say it doesn't happen is an untruth.
Consider this:
A homophobe could generalize, saying all gays are camp.
Its an untruth (like the ego idea is untrue) , but the homophobe is entitled to their opinion, as you are to yours.
On top of that its a little naiive. Hence my assertation that you aren't in fact Irish at all. (again not that it matters...)
***
"But you say its everywhere, except with you and your crowd?"
This in fact IS a lie. I never said "except" any where. I never eluded to that, in fact I agreed with you in the original post.
Shall I call you a deliverer of untruths, and a part time liar?
PS - I know what you are like...So,
to clarify - I am not comparing you to a homophobe, just using it as an example of an untruth based on a misinformed stereotype.
..and I don't give a sh1t if you are Irish or not, just thinking that maybe this idealistic view of the Irish scene, and Ireland in general has something to do with your inability to accept other people's opinions. (That aren't Frankie, tommy, Lizzo, Cranno, etc...)
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Hugo Chavez
Re: the shoulders of giants
I agree that To aspire to play like our role models is a good thing no doubt, Yes your right, on re reading his post I see he did not say specifically that he was up there but I certainly did not and have never ever misrepresented any ones position willfully. unlike some who do it all the time specifically to bolster their own ego., but the toenail kicker bit is still rather suspect ego stuff is it not? if we agree with llig we are humble and if we dont we are just toenail kickers! LOL.
I am sorry I certainly didnt mean to divert this thread and I dont think it has gone bad, just moved from a 'self congratulatory how humble' we are thread to one that might inspire some real honest self reflection? perhaps not. I suppose it is rather unlikely , sigh.
SWFL making your mark is not something I said, and is very different to forging your own path. Making your own way in life is what adults do. Blindly copying and obeying is what small children do. Its rather unfortunate that there seem to be so many people who dont have the courage or inspiration to go their own way., but rather blindly follow the blind.
Anyhow see ya.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: the shoulders of giants
I agree Ionannas maybe you should go and find your own way .
Dont forget to send us a card
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: the shoulders of giants
A funny thing happened. I went to thesession.org for some good old belligerent argumentation and a civil conversation broke out. No, wait, that was a dream.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: the shoulders of giants
And for a minute I thought you were apologising! How is it egotistical to say you can strive to be like your idols or you can not bother trying, disregard everything you can learn from them and just "make your own way"? I am sure you wouldn't be in that second camp Ion. That would be a silly position to take so again I can't see why you are arguing the matter.
I thought it was a nice analogy from Llig. Not everything he says has to be part of a war with you.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: the shoulders of giants
showaddydadito:
Thanks for the clarification. Thing is my earlier post could have been read as insulting rather than joking. But it was the later that was intedned.
>a bit of a cross post there - I was not referring to your post >about dandruff, but the general tenor of some of the previous >few posts.
>fancy a pint?
- chris
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: the shoulders of giants
Humility is humility, whether you're talking about ITM or jazz or carpentry. I know I'm a novice, no matter how many times I say I'm not new to Irish music, which I'm not, but sessionry is entirely different than playing some Irish songs like I did years ago. I'm sure when I'm still participating in sessions in 2 years I'll still feel like mostly a novice. I feel that way any time I post here, but I do it anyway because I appreciate the input, and I've developed a few layers to my skin that weren't there before and I can take it. When I post something that is naive, or ill-conceived, or insensitive to something cultural of which I'm not aware, and I get called on it, there's really nothing I can do but respectfully try to learn and grow. There's really no need to have hurt feelings or get into p*ssing contests and argue over things that mean nearly nothing at best. That, to me, is all humility is, and it has little to do with it being over ITM, or jazz, or carpentry. However, I'll say it again, musicians are a childlike lot, myself not excluded, and sometimes fights break out on the playground, but, like children, most of us rub our skinned knees and bruised cheeks and keep playing. So, I guess in all there's really nothing wrong with this scenario, and there's no need to grow up. All is well. Humility is still a nice thing to have though, and it doesn't require any bowing or scraping.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: the shoulders of giants
Llig has gone soft "my lovely thread". Happens to the best of them.
Showaddy, Dennis was indeed in Mayo, but I know Dave from the Gorton Morris Men.
Saw him in Gorton in September, mighty shoulders indeed.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: the shoulders of giants
All bickering and instrument hierarchy aside... my favorite quote regarding Irish trad is: "The music is bigger than any one of us." I can't recall where I heard this nor who said it, but it continues to reverberate through my experiences playing trad. I think THAT'S the giant whose shoulders we are climbing.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: the shoulders of giants
Amen to that. And regarding the people we learn from, my thought is that none of the true giants would ever admit to 'gigantic' status!
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: the shoulders of giants
my favorite quote regarding Irish trad is: "The music is bigger than any one of us." I can't recall where I heard this nor who said it, but it continues to reverberate through my experiences playing trad. I think THAT'S the giant whose shoulders we are climbing.
# Posted on October 27th 2009 by Phantom Button
There is an exception to every rule.
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by bodhran bliss
Re: the shoulders of giants
Lol BB... never out of character.
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: the shoulders of giants
mr. bliss, in this forum, you stand on the shoulders of the man behind the curtain.
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: the shoulders of giants
Of course the giants of which I refer is the music and not any individual player. That's the whole bloody point of it. That's why it's "giants" not "giant".
But the music itself does not exist in books or on recordings or in some mysteriously ethereal other world. And nor can it exist within any individual, no matter how much of a giant you think them. It exists in the hearts and minds of all those who created and continue to create it. It is a collective consciousness. "The music is a human latticework of creation and respect".
And this is why, if you don't respect and try to understand it as a whole, If you feel that you can discard any of it and want to make the effort to forge your own path, if you feel the need to deconstruct it and reconstruct it in your own image - especially when someone has taken the time to sit down with you and show you it - then the best you could ever hope to do with it would be to kick at its toenails.
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by ...
Re: the shoulders of giants
Ionannas:
No one said anything about blinding taking orders. It was all about putting the music first, and how no one is bigger than the music.
Ironically, as No Cause for Alarm said:
"I thought it was a nice analogy from Llig. Not everything he says has to be part of a war with you."
See? There is 'no cause for alarm' Ionannas, never was. Maybe you should try decaffeinated?
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: the shoulders of giants
nicely put llig and well observed
it's along the lines of what i meant when (in dlunney's ' . . .ITM: My thesis' thread of oct 11th) i referred to 'the core' of this music 'not being touched on many plains' as it's already in the souls of those keeping this 'giant' alive _ i see it as 'one' huge human entity, her palms 'spread lovingly around the globe'
'The Giant shall rise, the Giant shall rise with the moon'
( . . . anyone on that one?)
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by lisaniska
Re: the shoulders of giants
Michael writes: "Of course the giants of which I refer is the music and not any individual player. That's the whole bloody point of it. That's why it's "giants" not "giant"."
Michael says in the opening statement: "One of the absolute beauties of this music is not just the willingness, but the open invitations, the open and helping hands of the best players that hope and wish for you to stand on their shoulders. It's beautiful."
Sorry Michael, maybe I assumed wrong but it appeared to me you were referring to players themselves and not the music.
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: the shoulders of giants
not quite the same topic, but I came across this flannery o'connor quote today...
"Art never responds to the wish to make it democratic; it is not for everybody; it is only for those who are willing to undergo the effort needed to understand it. We hear a great deal about humility being required to lower oneself, but it requires an equal humility and a real love of the truth to raise oneself and by hard labor to acquire higher standards"
so there you go - both giants and giant-climbers are needed!
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by airport
Re: the shoulders of giants
Button, the music is the players for it can only exist within them ... the collective consciousness.
airport, I like that quote. Yes, both giants and giant-climbers are needed. It''s the human latticework of creation and respect.
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by ...
Re: the shoulders of giants
I don't see it as a latticework, more a maze filled with quantum jumps and micro/macroscopic pathways of buzzing bright electrons which jump the musical synapses and spark quiet revelation instantaneously. Those giants whose shoulders we stand on are nodes in this multi-dimensional musical universe and our perception of them and their music, like all who play the music are constantly in flux (like the tunes themselves); they change according to when we're listening, our mood, our degree of concentration. We could pass through the same node a thousand times and one moment hear something different that sets us on a new path; a note held a microsecond longer here, a cut there, a molecular subpulse of rhythm in a much-loved phrase etc that previously hadn't jolted a synapse into life. Once the jump is made we're away and the whole universe is altered subtly; we will never be the same again.
In the session, on a recording or deep in the neuron networks of our musical selves as we recall preformances or other transient moments of musical enlightenment the giants on whose shoulders we stand are forever showing us the possibilites; infinite routes to the transcendence that this incredible music allows us to experience. That demands the highest respect.
Bliss: I have alerted Dave to the kind comments on this thread, I think the Denis you and Showaddy are talking about are not the same chap, our Den is a mighty bodhran player and singer beloved of the Macc Irish but was not in Mayo as far as I know.
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: the shoulders of giants
All that gobbledegook may well be happeneing in my subconcious brain, but it's the connections with the people, the tradition, that are important. Without that all you have is you own isolated improvisations.
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by ...
Re: the shoulders of giants
That was the point.
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: the shoulders of giants
The sentiments of the original post are wonderful. I've only been playing a few years but I haven't forgotten the generosity of some great musicians, some of them notable members here, who first played tunes with me and encouraged me.
Sadly, I have recently encountered an impatient attitude towards beginners in sessions, which has shocked me. These musicians have climbed up the giants and want to pull the ladder up after them. Thankfully they are in the minority
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by sashiko calico
Re: the shoulders of giants
Maybe that coincided with your husband buying you the bodhran?
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by ...
Re: the shoulders of giants
Ha ha ha very droll
. (The bodhran playing's going fine by the way but I am much more interested in the fiddling.)
Funnily enough this impatience with beginners has not been directed at me (at least not overtly). Although I have learnt enough about this music to know I will always feel like a beginner.
I refer to the sniffy attitude of some middling players that a session might not be good enough for them, that's all.
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by sashiko calico
Re: the shoulders of giants
There seem to be people who are still climbing and can't always manage with others hanging onto their feet. Not unreasonable.
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by David50
Re: the shoulders of giants
I think "climbing" is the wrong word, the wrong way to go about it. If you feel like you are climbing then yes, you probably don't want people dragging you down. And it can also be sore on the people you are trying to climb up.
The best way is to not be making too much of an effort to climb yourself. Just relax, work at it a bit, but also allow yourself to be pulled up. It's about listening
And remember, there is a thing that all the better players have learned, and that is that you can learn as much, if not more, by just listening and not trying to join in all the time. So it can get irritating when they meet people who haven't yet learned this.
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by ...
Re: the shoulders of giants
Surely most of us are still climbing, aren't we?
But I take your point david_h about trying to climb with people "hanging onto their feet" .
I still think lack of generosity to people less experienced than yourself is slightly unreasonable.
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by sashiko calico
Re: the shoulders of giants
Anyone who thinks they have reached the top is, by definition, way way way off.
The whole system exists because of the generosity to people less experienced. Take that away and the entire system collapses
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by ...
Re: the shoulders of giants
Listening I think implies a bit of humility -- but it also indicates engagement. Oddly, people who insist on playing everything all the time are often not listening to the ebb and flow of what's going on among the musicians around them....so they'll follow some set of tunes with something totally inappropriate or play their own set of tunes that no one else plays [indicating that they haven't listened to the kinds of tunes previously played in previous sessions]. And so on.
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by skin&bow
Re: the shoulders of giants
So replace my "people who are still climbing and " with "people who are climbing" ? Climbing is part of the analogy in use. Does plodding steadily uphill count ?
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by David50
Re: the shoulders of giants
@Sugarfoot Jack:
That was a marvellous evocation of the nature of the cosmos you wrote up there. Reading it, I was transported to some big landscape, the Trail of the Lonesome Pine or Yellowstone or somewhere equally preposterous, watching the endless mutations of twilight colour and light and shade pulsate through the tops of monstrous conifers, little bugs flying here and there, none of it actually doing me any harm though all of it impersonal and inedible. I am humming "A Very Cellular Song" by the Incredible String Band and at the same time pondering the wise words of Chief Two-Grizzlies-Mating about, sort of, the Earth and stuff. A large morose animal crunches wood underfoot as he goes to get a drink. I see owls' faces around me. Some bird flutes out-of-tune nearby. Visitors barge close by me with appalling insensitivity.
When I next go to a session, the last four sentences of the above paragraph are what I actually encounter there, while all the nice lofty pulsating interconnected cosmic stuff has fled.
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by nicholas
Re: the shoulders of giants
Durham sessions are weird but I don't remember owls. Maybe I wasn't taking what everyone else was on.
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: the shoulders of giants
Must be good beer up north.
# Posted on October 29th 2009 by minijackpot
Re: the shoulders of giants
Like the song says, "We are marching in the footsteps of those who have gone before."
# Posted on October 30th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: the shoulders of giants
Maybe we should try to remember that we are the messenger instead of the message itself (speaking of humility and keeping your ego restrained and under control).
# Posted on October 30th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: the shoulders of giants
It is good to listen to older and more experienced musicians playing music that you like so you can learn how to play it properly but you are not the person whom you are listening to on a recording or at a live performance or at a session.
We are all unique individuals who are going to hear music differently and play it differently when we try to reproduce it.
I guess the problem is how do you reconcile your individuality with the standards, customs, and traditions of the music which you are trying to play because you like the music and you enjoy playing it with your friends?
This is why I used the image of trying to keep my balance on a tightrope or high-wire with no safety net underneath no matter whether or not I am sober or drunk.
# Posted on October 30th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: the shoulders of giants
We are marching in the light of God,
We are marching in the light of God;
We are marching in the light of God,
We are marching in the light of God;
We are marching,
We are marching - O!,
We are marching in the light of God;
We are marching,
We are marching - O!,
We are marching in the light of God
This was not written by Mike Heron
There are several other verses, rather similar to the above.
I've probably got them if anyone wants them
It is traditionally sung over and over again till people stop
I have just come home from a session
# Posted on October 30th 2009 by nicholas
Re: the shoulders of giants
nicholas, Aren't all songs generally sung until people stop?
# Posted on October 30th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: the shoulders of giants
I usually sing until people stop me.
# Posted on October 30th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: the shoulders of giants
Of course they are!
# Posted on October 30th 2009 by nicholas
Re: the shoulders of giants
fauxcelt, I don't recognise the music of which you speak.
You say, "the problem is how do you reconcile your individuality with the standards, customs, and traditions of the music?" There is no problem that needs reconciliation because the tradition is to express your self.
"We are the messenger instead of the message". Not really. there is no message in the music, it's not like we preach when we play. And besides, the music is in people, it's part of them, it's not separate.
"Trying to keep my balance on a tightrope or high-wire with no safety net ". The sooner you stop being scared of it, the better you'll play it.
# Posted on October 30th 2009 by ...
Re: the shoulders of giants
But was Izaac Newton an Oasis fan?
# Posted on October 30th 2009 by yhaalhouse
Re: the shoulders of giants
"I don't recognize the music of which you speak"
You probably don't recognize it because I was speaking of music in general instead of a specific type, style, or genre of music. In my experience of playing music for approximately forty-three years now, I have frequently learned how to really play various types of music properly by listening to many older and more experienced musicians (including some who have been playing this music longer than I have been alive). If different musicians play the same piece differently, I compare their versions and think about it.
Yes I am trying to express myself through music but I would like to at least try to stay within the traditions and customs of this music.
The message is the music itself and how delightful and wonderful it is both to listen to and to play. I see myself as the messenger who is trying to transmit the music to the audience and/or the other musicians.
"Scared?" If there was any fear and/or if I was afraid of the risk of making a fool out of myself in public by trying to play music, I would have quit playing music in public many years ago and gone into some less dishonest line of work such as politics or selling used cars.
I used the image of a tightrope or high-wire because that is how I feel sometimes. If I really was afraid, I wouldn't keep getting back up on the tightrope or high-wire again and again and again and take the risk of falling off. Instead, I would just stay at home and play only for myself and never play an instrument in public.
# Posted on November 1st 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: the shoulders of giants
Also, if I was a "fraidy-cat", I wouldn't continue participating in discussions on this web site.
# Posted on November 2nd 2009 by fauxcelt