Ornamentation and variation are topics covered frequently here, and appropriately so, being an important aspect of the music. In my learning on mando and whistle, it seems to me that picking, instruments such as mando and banjo do not lend themselves as well to ornamentation than fiddle, pipes, flute, etc. Rolls just aren't possible on a mando. So, it would seem to me that variation, accentuation of notes are the key to playing said instruments to avoid where I'm at now, which is for the most part just to play the notes accurately and in time. Is this a fair assessment? I know that practice will improve the sound of my playing to a certain extent, but I am wondering if there are certain types of ornamentation or techniques in variation I should be concentrating on with the mando that will help me develop style. I understand this may ellicit a wealth of differing opinions, which I welcome with open arms. Thanks ahead for you input.
Wow Jimmy, that's some astute analysis, well done. Wish I was better at the mando to give you tips. I know when I try to play tenor banjo it's a whole different world than the fiddle as far as articulation goes.
Here's a thread where we've beat the whole 'articulation' thing into the ground:
"... realising your approximation is so way off you leave space instead..."
There it is. That's what I do when I play banjo. I can fiddle on the banjo, and you won't be able to whistle on the mandolin, but, what you can do is realize your approximation will be so far off that you leave space instead!
"Ornamentation" is simply the repertoire of devices used to accentuate the melody. It's not "ornamenting" the melody in the sense of decorating it, because the ornaments are not melodic. If you hear the roll or the cran as a series of distinct notes, you're doing it wrong. It should sound more like a bit of percussion. (this would be why you don't have to worry about hitting a c natural when you roll a B in a one-sharp tune. Nobody hears the note anyway)
So it's just as crucial to use the "ornaments" available on plectrum instruments, but kep in mind that they're different ornaments. Think picked triplets, left-hand cuts and strikes (hammer-ons and pull-offs, if you like) in conjunction with your picking, slides, and so forth. Anything that gets you that burr in the sound where it ought to be.
The worst thing you could possibly do is "just to play the notes accurately and in time" - that sounds like a description of the worst sort of mechanical banjo playing, the alternate-picking, hit every eighth-note, rackety-tackety sound, like a tuned sewing machine. Awful! Break it up a little, or stick to the whistle.
Triplet s, triplets and more triplets! . But also play with different rhythmic ways of 'saying' the phrases of tunes. If you listen to Scottish music there is a wealth of dotted rhythms which can , to some extent, be brought in to accentuate different phrases. But IMO the most Important thing is to play the tunes with life , verve and get people up and Dancing .
Triplets like ;
instead of FG say go F/F/G, this is a typical banbjo/mandolin thing, also more mandolin/mandola is to play drones, chords, double stops, and to improvise melodically more. A mandola approach is to actually not play the tune but accompany the fiddler etc, so this is also a way you could go, understand the chordal structures behind the tunes you know so you can do this as well when playing with others.
Jon- "just playing the notes accurately and in time" is all some people can do -irrespective of which instrument they play. Is it only mechanical if it is done on the banjo?
Great input so far. This helps. As for triplets, I'm not quite there yet, and I'm not about to throw in much or those in-session at this point and risk muddying up the set, but I will slowly work them in. As I practice a tune more and more and the tune gets stuck indelibly in my head, my hands begin to relax more and triplets will become possible
As for double stops and drones, I'm already working those in, sometimes by default becase it just seems natural in some segments, so that has been some organic decoration that is already going on, but I guess I wasn't thinking of it as ornamentation.
Jon - the rackety-tackety sound is exactly what I want to avoid, so, your point is well taken.
Although we speak of ornamentation, variation articulation etc they are really all facets of the same thing, personal expression through improvisation / variation. Unless of course its just rote repetition, copying. I was chatting with a Piper friend the other day and we both have very similar approaches to the music, its about de-constructing and then reconstructing. Breaking it down until its as simple as can be, then working back up from there.
As far as triplets go, try a jig rhythm; D-D UDU.over and over again, build up the rhythm alone. on one string. . then eventually try D-(3DUD) UDU . once this is done Take away the first D and place a rest there; --(3DUD) UDU
As with everything else the key is to listen to good players. There's a great number of banjo players you can listen to by searching Youtube and the Comhaltas site, though maybe not quite so many mando players. A fair amount of the banjo-sytle articuation applies to the mando, though.
Newty - no, it's mechanical on any instrument. It's just particularly common and annoying on the banjo. Particularly common because there are people who teach alternate picking as though it were a good thing, and because the banjo plucker can just pluck and pluck forever, robbing the tune of any spark of life it began with. There's no equivalent of running out of breath or bow or bellows to force a phrase boundary, and force the player to think of the tune as a whole, so can they just play each note as though it were the next in an interminable sequence of equals.
Particularly annoying, because you can't not hear a banjo. A bad mandolin player gets lost in the whole sound of the session, a bad banjo player stands out like a naked yodeller in an art gallery.
'The worst thing you could possibly do is "just to play the notes accurately and in time"'
That sounds a bit harsh. IMO the first thing you should do is play the notes accurately and in time. Once you have mastered that, you can begin to vary the timing, although not the accuracy. You sound to me (from your post) as though you will make a good player, if you are not already.
Thanks gam. I'm not a good player, but I like to think I'm on the way to being able to hold my ownin a session and have fun. That's what it's all about, yes? I didn't take any offense by Jon's comment at all, I understand the point. Adding style and life and character to the tune, isn't that what we're all shooting for? But you're right, doens't everyone have to have the tune accurate and in time first before the rest will come? Nobody wants to be a mechanical player.
Anyway, all comments have been duely noted and appreciated. My wife grew up as a dancer and thus around the music she has told me that for the most part my jigs sound like jigs, my reels sound like reels (if a touch slow yet), and my hornpipes sound like hornpipes, so I guess I'm making progress.
Yes, I got that same image, and it's bit disturbing. However, I don't know if the analogy is appropriate. I don't know that a naked yodeler in an art gallery is necessarily devoid of style, life, or character.
Mike Keyes is a regular contributer here, and on his web page there are slowed down video clips of triplets or "trebles" if you like. I also recommend listening to other pickers such as Kevin Griffin, Angelina Carbury, Keiran Hanrahan, Gerry O'Connor etc. and hear what they do with ornamentation. All of these folks have stuff available on i-Tunes. Listen to the Brona Graham clip on the Comhaltas web-site. I think once you hear good ornaments employed by seasoned players, your ears will open up to all sorts of ideas as you learn more tunes.
I would think a naked female yodeller would stand out as much as a male would in most art galleries. But since it's a gal-lery and not a guy-lerie, let's say it's a female yodeller. Does that help?
Male or female, he or she is definitely not an inspiring yodeller, though. Definitely not your class ululations here. Loud, though.
Actually, you can play a roll on a mandolin. It is just not something that most of us mere mortals can easily do. A few years ago, Roger Landes introduced a workshop at ZoukFest by Claude Stephenson, a local bluegrass mandolin player, by saying that Claude had taught him how to do a roll on a mandolin. It is not easy, but it can be done. Luke Plumb in his mandolin classes at ZoukFest has shown a wide range of possible ornaments on mandolin. If you ever get a chance to take a class from Luke, do it. He is one of the most brilliant musicians I have ever seen. He can take a simple concept like the triplet and do multiple variations on the idea that all create different musical and rhythmic effects.
There are some nice links here, but does anyone have any to the subject of the original question: ornamentation and variation within irish mandolin playing?
"a lot of ornaments in wind instruments are to impart some rhythm to their warblings
that just isn't necessary on a mandolin!"
I agree with the first bit, Bren. But it's perfectly possible to play a mandolin unrhythmically - I'm sure I used to do it frequently myself (I have once or twice been accused of it even in the last few years). That said, an ill-chosen or ill-placed ornament can sometimes disrupt the rhythm, not add to it.
In fact, nitpicking aside, I think I agree with your point. It may be possible to recreate certain piping and fiddling ornaments 'literally' on the mandolin - and they're perfectly valid additions to the palette - but they are unlikely to produce the same musical effect as they do on the pipes or fiddle. The mandolin, played in the most basic manner, naturally produces a highly articulated sound and ornaments involving hammer-ons and pull-offs are likely to soften the edges, not make them more defined.
For my own purposes, I find that picked triplets serve me well in enabling me to reproduce what, in my mind, Irish trad should sound like. It's a very simple device, but can be adapted for use in all sorts of different ways. I acknowledge that there's still a few hundred lifetimes' worth of learning out there for me, just for playing Irish tunes on the mandolin, let alone the other instruments and other musical styles I endeavour to play.
"there are people who teach alternate picking as though it were a good thing,"
Jon K - I don't see the problem with strict alternate picking as a technique. Rhythm, I think, is based on accents, and you can accent a note as much or as little as you like, regardless of pick direction. Triplets are good but not essential - some players don't use them at all, but still play great music. About 7 years ago, I took 2 weeks out of *playing* mandolin, just to teach myself alternate picking. It took me another couple of weeks to get back up to session speed, but when I did, everything just felt much easier. As a result, I was free to do more with the tunes. I'm not saying that there are not far better players than me who are more flexible with their pick direction - but they'd be far better players than me regardless of what technique they chose to use.
Input on picked melody instruments
Input on picked melody instruments
Ornamentation and variation are topics covered frequently here, and appropriately so, being an important aspect of the music. In my learning on mando and whistle, it seems to me that picking, instruments such as mando and banjo do not lend themselves as well to ornamentation than fiddle, pipes, flute, etc. Rolls just aren't possible on a mando. So, it would seem to me that variation, accentuation of notes are the key to playing said instruments to avoid where I'm at now, which is for the most part just to play the notes accurately and in time. Is this a fair assessment? I know that practice will improve the sound of my playing to a certain extent, but I am wondering if there are certain types of ornamentation or techniques in variation I should be concentrating on with the mando that will help me develop style. I understand this may ellicit a wealth of differing opinions, which I welcome with open arms. Thanks ahead for you input.
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
Wow Jimmy, that's some astute analysis, well done. Wish I was better at the mando to give you tips. I know when I try to play tenor banjo it's a whole different world than the fiddle as far as articulation goes.
Here's a thread where we've beat the whole 'articulation' thing into the ground:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17606
"... realising your approximation is so way off you leave space instead..."
There it is. That's what I do when I play banjo. I can fiddle on the banjo, and you won't be able to whistle on the mandolin, but, what you can do is realize your approximation will be so far off that you leave space instead!
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
"Ornamentation" is simply the repertoire of devices used to accentuate the melody. It's not "ornamenting" the melody in the sense of decorating it, because the ornaments are not melodic. If you hear the roll or the cran as a series of distinct notes, you're doing it wrong. It should sound more like a bit of percussion. (this would be why you don't have to worry about hitting a c natural when you roll a B in a one-sharp tune. Nobody hears the note anyway)
So it's just as crucial to use the "ornaments" available on plectrum instruments, but kep in mind that they're different ornaments. Think picked triplets, left-hand cuts and strikes (hammer-ons and pull-offs, if you like) in conjunction with your picking, slides, and so forth. Anything that gets you that burr in the sound where it ought to be.
The worst thing you could possibly do is "just to play the notes accurately and in time" - that sounds like a description of the worst sort of mechanical banjo playing, the alternate-picking, hit every eighth-note, rackety-tackety sound, like a tuned sewing machine. Awful! Break it up a little, or stick to the whistle.
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
Triplet s, triplets and more triplets! . But also play with different rhythmic ways of 'saying' the phrases of tunes. If you listen to Scottish music there is a wealth of dotted rhythms which can , to some extent, be brought in to accentuate different phrases. But IMO the most Important thing is to play the tunes with life , verve and get people up and Dancing .
Triplets like ;
instead of FG say go F/F/G, this is a typical banbjo/mandolin thing, also more mandolin/mandola is to play drones, chords, double stops, and to improvise melodically more. A mandola approach is to actually not play the tune but accompany the fiddler etc, so this is also a way you could go, understand the chordal structures behind the tunes you know so you can do this as well when playing with others.
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
Jon- "just playing the notes accurately and in time" is all some people can do -irrespective of which instrument they play. Is it only mechanical if it is done on the banjo?
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by Newty
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
Great input so far. This helps. As for triplets, I'm not quite there yet, and I'm not about to throw in much or those in-session at this point and risk muddying up the set, but I will slowly work them in. As I practice a tune more and more and the tune gets stuck indelibly in my head, my hands begin to relax more and triplets will become possible
As for double stops and drones, I'm already working those in, sometimes by default becase it just seems natural in some segments, so that has been some organic decoration that is already going on, but I guess I wasn't thinking of it as ornamentation.
Jon - the rackety-tackety sound is exactly what I want to avoid, so, your point is well taken.
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
Although we speak of ornamentation, variation articulation etc they are really all facets of the same thing, personal expression through improvisation / variation. Unless of course its just rote repetition, copying. I was chatting with a Piper friend the other day and we both have very similar approaches to the music, its about de-constructing and then reconstructing. Breaking it down until its as simple as can be, then working back up from there.
As far as triplets go, try a jig rhythm; D-D UDU.over and over again, build up the rhythm alone. on one string. . then eventually try D-(3DUD) UDU . once this is done Take away the first D and place a rest there; --(3DUD) UDU
Enjoy
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
As with everything else the key is to listen to good players. There's a great number of banjo players you can listen to by searching Youtube and the Comhaltas site, though maybe not quite so many mando players. A fair amount of the banjo-sytle articuation applies to the mando, though.
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by grego
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
Newty - no, it's mechanical on any instrument. It's just particularly common and annoying on the banjo. Particularly common because there are people who teach alternate picking as though it were a good thing, and because the banjo plucker can just pluck and pluck forever, robbing the tune of any spark of life it began with. There's no equivalent of running out of breath or bow or bellows to force a phrase boundary, and force the player to think of the tune as a whole, so can they just play each note as though it were the next in an interminable sequence of equals.
Particularly annoying, because you can't not hear a banjo. A bad mandolin player gets lost in the whole sound of the session, a bad banjo player stands out like a naked yodeller in an art gallery.
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
'The worst thing you could possibly do is "just to play the notes accurately and in time"'
That sounds a bit harsh. IMO the first thing you should do is play the notes accurately and in time. Once you have mastered that, you can begin to vary the timing, although not the accuracy. You sound to me (from your post) as though you will make a good player, if you are not already.
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by gam
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
Thanks gam. I'm not a good player, but I like to think I'm on the way to being able to hold my ownin a session and have fun. That's what it's all about, yes? I didn't take any offense by Jon's comment at all, I understand the point. Adding style and life and character to the tune, isn't that what we're all shooting for? But you're right, doens't everyone have to have the tune accurate and in time first before the rest will come? Nobody wants to be a mechanical player.
Anyway, all comments have been duely noted and appreciated. My wife grew up as a dancer and thus around the music she has told me that for the most part my jigs sound like jigs, my reels sound like reels (if a touch slow yet), and my hornpipes sound like hornpipes, so I guess I'm making progress.
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
Jon,
I have a bad image stuck in my head now. Please tell me whether the naked yodeler is male or female.
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by grego
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
Yes, I got that same image, and it's bit disturbing. However, I don't know if the analogy is appropriate. I don't know that a naked yodeler in an art gallery is necessarily devoid of style, life, or character.
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
Jimmy - check out this helpful web-site
http://www.mikekeyes.com/
Mike Keyes is a regular contributer here, and on his web page there are slowed down video clips of triplets or "trebles" if you like. I also recommend listening to other pickers such as Kevin Griffin, Angelina Carbury, Keiran Hanrahan, Gerry O'Connor etc. and hear what they do with ornamentation. All of these folks have stuff available on i-Tunes. Listen to the Brona Graham clip on the Comhaltas web-site. I think once you hear good ornaments employed by seasoned players, your ears will open up to all sorts of ideas as you learn more tunes.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
I would think a naked female yodeller would stand out as much as a male would in most art galleries. But since it's a gal-lery and not a guy-lerie, let's say it's a female yodeller. Does that help?
Male or female, he or she is definitely not an inspiring yodeller, though. Definitely not your class ululations here. Loud, though.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
And all this time I thought the yodelling musical accompaniement to naked females was a subjective interior experience.
I'm really rather relieved to find that it is an established general phenomenon and that I'm not imagining it.
Thanks for clearing that up - Chris
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
What kind of subjective interior experiences are you having, Chris? You won't be yodeling accompaniment to naked females at the session, will you?
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
The females at our session aren't eally naked, it is just howway I think of them
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
Whatever gets you through a night at the Oran Mor.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
JNE mentioned Brona Graham. If she’s the one I’m thinking of, her banjo triplets are a wonder to behold.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPhe3bDJx1E&feature
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
Actually, you can play a roll on a mandolin. It is just not something that most of us mere mortals can easily do. A few years ago, Roger Landes introduced a workshop at ZoukFest by Claude Stephenson, a local bluegrass mandolin player, by saying that Claude had taught him how to do a roll on a mandolin. It is not easy, but it can be done. Luke Plumb in his mandolin classes at ZoukFest has shown a wide range of possible ornaments on mandolin. If you ever get a chance to take a class from Luke, do it. He is one of the most brilliant musicians I have ever seen. He can take a simple concept like the triplet and do multiple variations on the idea that all create different musical and rhythmic effects.
John
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by John Conoboy
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
There are some nice links here, but does anyone have any to the subject of the original question: ornamentation and variation within irish mandolin playing?
# Posted on October 24th 2009 by greg sheils
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
a lot of ornaments in wind instruments are to impart some rhythm to their warblings
that just isn't necessary on a mandolin
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by Bren
Re: Input on picked melody instruments
"a lot of ornaments in wind instruments are to impart some rhythm to their warblings
that just isn't necessary on a mandolin!"
I agree with the first bit, Bren. But it's perfectly possible to play a mandolin unrhythmically - I'm sure I used to do it frequently myself (I have once or twice been accused of it even in the last few years). That said, an ill-chosen or ill-placed ornament can sometimes disrupt the rhythm, not add to it.
In fact, nitpicking aside, I think I agree with your point. It may be possible to recreate certain piping and fiddling ornaments 'literally' on the mandolin - and they're perfectly valid additions to the palette - but they are unlikely to produce the same musical effect as they do on the pipes or fiddle. The mandolin, played in the most basic manner, naturally produces a highly articulated sound and ornaments involving hammer-ons and pull-offs are likely to soften the edges, not make them more defined.
For my own purposes, I find that picked triplets serve me well in enabling me to reproduce what, in my mind, Irish trad should sound like. It's a very simple device, but can be adapted for use in all sorts of different ways. I acknowledge that there's still a few hundred lifetimes' worth of learning out there for me, just for playing Irish tunes on the mandolin, let alone the other instruments and other musical styles I endeavour to play.
"there are people who teach alternate picking as though it were a good thing,"
Jon K - I don't see the problem with strict alternate picking as a technique. Rhythm, I think, is based on accents, and you can accent a note as much or as little as you like, regardless of pick direction. Triplets are good but not essential - some players don't use them at all, but still play great music. About 7 years ago, I took 2 weeks out of *playing* mandolin, just to teach myself alternate picking. It took me another couple of weeks to get back up to session speed, but when I did, everything just felt much easier. As a result, I was free to do more with the tunes. I'm not saying that there are not far better players than me who are more flexible with their pick direction - but they'd be far better players than me regardless of what technique they chose to use.
# Posted on October 28th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig