I was watching some random YouTube whistle videos and one of the fellas was sort of giving a lesson and talking about variations. I don't have a link, it was a few days ago, but here's my question:
consider this phrase:
DAD AFA | BGB AFA
this fella, in an accent very similar to my American dialect, was saying that you could invert the melody as a variation and play something like this:
DAD FAF| GBG AFA
ok, I can see if you were playing by yourself or you were the only melody player. That naturally leaves you very free.
But what about with another player with a fiddle or flute? Is this a sort of thing that is part of the tradition and experienced players listen for these sorts of variations and react? or would something like inverting the melody this way throw a wrench?
if you all could help me separate the good stuff from the junk here, I would really appreciate it. I have to agree that it is certainly a path to variation, but is this something that you all actually do and actually listen for?
Thirds (F# and A) and fifths (D and A) harmonize, so you can almost always play variations along those lines. You can also use that technique to approach notes in different ways. In the Silver Spear:
"But what about with another player with a fiddle or flute? Is this a sort of thing that is part of the tradition and experienced players listen for these sorts of variations and react? or would something like inverting the melody this way throw a wrench?"
Ah, and there's the rub, innt? (did I do that right, the 'innit'?)
In a perfect world, you and the other musicians are all listening to each other, and any variations you make will not disturb the other players, and vice versa.
Meanwhile, in reality...nobody listens to each other. HA!
No but seriously, yeah, that's kind of the trick there.
If you play all the time with a buddy, you and he/she will eventually merge and have your own little things that you do all the time and are happy with.
These things might throw a visiting player off, unless they're listening and flexible.
Vice versa, when you and your buddy are out playing somewhere else with new folks, they'll mess you up with theirs.
If you're playing with other people, it's best to at least TRY to sync up and figure out some way to play it together, lest the result sound mushy. That might mean you play it one way the first time, another way the second, etc... Then repeat the pattern. Good musicians should be able pick up on the difference pretty quickly, so long as you're doing a little to help them out.
If, on the other hand, you toss variations around willy-nilly, a good musician might either a) be a little annoyed that you're stymieing their efforts to play with you, or b) just give up trying to sync up with you at all.
Of course, nobody's perfect; it's not necessary to be completely obsessive about it. Sometimes it's nice to have a minor divergence of notes--but in general you're best off trying to make it sound tight first.
And of course there are some people who feel strongly about what notes, exactly, should go where. If you want to argue with these people, that's your prerogative... But I usually find it easiest (and less confrontational) to just play along with them instead.
For me the most important thing is to feel the rhythm and phrasing in
synch. But it doesn't happen that often in my session.
If everyone is on the same wavelength with rhythm and phrasing then
the melodic variations go together more gracefully; it doesn't matter that
much then whether the notes clash or not.
Check the 'comments' on tunes, where you'll often find enough variations to compare to get a better idea of where they can conflict or work in agreement, meaning especially exercising the ears, chasing up recordings of the same melody and listening... As happens incidental harmony isn't unusual, including playing in octaves. In a given beat the main or first note is the most valued, and the first of a measure even more so, though harmonic variations can occur, and rhythmic ones too. The identity of the given melody shouldn't be lost in the fun, and some variation is for the moment, maybe once in several repetitions of a given tune...
Just a small example, one measure of a jig, as given here at the start ~
~ | DAD AFA | ~ | D3 AFA | ~ | DAD ~A3 | ~ | D2 A AFA | ~
~ | DF/G/A ~A2 F | ~ | D3 AF/G/A | ~ | DFA ~AfA | ~ | d2 F A2 d | ~
~ | D>Fd Adc | ~ etc...
If you check the first note in each measure given, they are all D or d or D, and even in the second beat of that measure, the first note is A in all the examples given, but, as with all things, there can be exceptions...
The possibilities are endless ~ if not always properly seasoned or tastefully executed... As said, catch musicians you like and listen to how they handle it, the best education here isn't theory or a list of tricks but through your ears and giving someone else's take a try, then making decisions and eventually adopting what pleases you as your own, hopefully never losing track of the basic melody, keeping respect for that...
Playing a tune in a session where everyone has a slightly different way with it is the norm. I find it slightly awful when everyone plays EXACTLY note for note a given melody, making me wonder what book or recording they all chose to lift it from.
Sometimes difference can be a problem if it is drastic, which I've also experienced and which isnt' rare... Sometimes I compromise and follow what's being played, sometimes I just listen, chosing to keep the version I know and enjoy someone else's without necessarily joining in... But part of the enjoyment I get from this music is trying someone else's take on a tune...
thanks fellas. I've only been playing this music a year and a half and there's just a few of us around this immediate area, so I haven't had a wide enough exposure to the general practice.
Also, living in Appalachia as I do, we have our own tradition here, and it borows very heavily from Irish and Scottish music, so I really wasn't even sure if the fella I saw on the YouTube was talking Irish tradition, or playing an Irish tune in our "old time" tradtion
But this does give me alot to ponder in my own playing, but it also will help me to keep my ears open if I ever drop in somewhere in another town
if anybody has any other thoughts on the subject, please don't let this be the last word, but thank you guys for talking about variations and giving me some insights
Maybe the video the OP is talking about is the one I did. I did one where I do variations to Sean Bui on the whistle, and another where I do variations to The Earls Chair on uilleann pipes.
It's not applying an American Old Timey approach to Irish music, it's how Irish music is normally played.
There's the story about when Francis O Neill was collecting tunes for his collection around 1900: he himself didn't read sheet music, and neither did his source players, so he employed a violinist to transcribe the tunes. Well, one day the violinist sat down with a certain source musician (a fiddler if I recall). The source fiddler played a certain phrase of a tune and the violinist dutifully wrote it down on paper and then played it back for comment/correction. "No, not like that" the fiddler said and played the phrase again. The violinist then revised his music and again played what he had written. The source fiddler once again said "no, not like that" and again played the phrase. By now the violinist realised that the problem was that the source fiddler was playing the phrase different every time.
I know that I and many other players would be hard-pressed to play a tune exactly the same way twice or three times in a row: it's just not how we play.
Now, different players approach variation differently for sure. Some play a tune more or less the same way twice, almost saying to the listener "here is my version of this tune...got it?" and then on the third playing will play a big obvious variant, almost like setting the variation on a silver platter for the listener to feast on.
Then there are players who play every phrase differently every time that phrase recurs, so that the listener never really gets a sense of what the core melody is.
When a group of people are playing Irish reels or jigs together I think it's fairly rare for everyone to be playing exactly the same version- the only way that could happen is if everyone played together regularly and a consensus setting of the tune emerged.
I was transcribing a certain reel from a Bothy Band album years ago and was having trouble with a certain phrase. When slowed down to half speed I could finally figure out what was happening: the fiddle, flute, and pipes were playing three different notes at one point, G, A, and B!
A musicologist once described Irish trad music as "heterophonic". (Insert silly joke I suppose....)
What it means is that everyone in an ensemble are all playing different versions of the same tune together.
I should say that that was how I was taught: my first mentor, the guy who taught me how to play Irish music back in the 70's, said "it's better to learn 20 ways of playing one tune, than learn 20 tunes" and that's how I was taught.
The first tune I learned was McLeod's Reel. He taught me the basic tune, then said "you know the tune, now let's f%@# with it" by which he meant learn a lot of twists and turns to the tune so as to be able to play it over and over without every playing it the same way twice.
'Variation' also includes ~ adding to, or dividing a given beat, or taking away, reducing the number of notes or divisions, borrowing time from one note and lending it to another (> or < / swing and snap) ~ as a simple example on one 2/4 bar/measure, polka time ~
|: G2 GA | ~ |: G/A/G/F/ GA | ~ |: G2- GA | (= |: G3 A |) ~ |: G2 G>A | ~
a Question About Variations....
a Question About Variations....
I was watching some random YouTube whistle videos and one of the fellas was sort of giving a lesson and talking about variations. I don't have a link, it was a few days ago, but here's my question:
consider this phrase:
DAD AFA | BGB AFA
this fella, in an accent very similar to my American dialect, was saying that you could invert the melody as a variation and play something like this:
DAD FAF| GBG AFA
ok, I can see if you were playing by yourself or you were the only melody player. That naturally leaves you very free.
But what about with another player with a fiddle or flute? Is this a sort of thing that is part of the tradition and experienced players listen for these sorts of variations and react? or would something like inverting the melody this way throw a wrench?
if you all could help me separate the good stuff from the junk here, I would really appreciate it. I have to agree that it is certainly a path to variation, but is this something that you all actually do and actually listen for?
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: a Question About Variations....
You could if you wanted. Not very interesting though is it? I think you need more context. How does the rest of it go?
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by ...
Re: a Question About Variations....
that's the start of the tune Sean Bui
excellent idea there to talk about variation in the context of a tune and not of a fragment
sorry about that. I should have said something more about the context
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: a Question About Variations....
Thirds (F# and A) and fifths (D and A) harmonize, so you can almost always play variations along those lines. You can also use that technique to approach notes in different ways. In the Silver Spear:
|FAAF BAFA|defd BcdA|
can become
|FAAF BAFA|dgfd BcdA|
etc.
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by Danjo
Re: a Question About Variations....
"But what about with another player with a fiddle or flute? Is this a sort of thing that is part of the tradition and experienced players listen for these sorts of variations and react? or would something like inverting the melody this way throw a wrench?"
Ah, and there's the rub, innt? (did I do that right, the 'innit'?)
In a perfect world, you and the other musicians are all listening to each other, and any variations you make will not disturb the other players, and vice versa.
Meanwhile, in reality...nobody listens to each other. HA!
No but seriously, yeah, that's kind of the trick there.
If you play all the time with a buddy, you and he/she will eventually merge and have your own little things that you do all the time and are happy with.
These things might throw a visiting player off, unless they're listening and flexible.
Vice versa, when you and your buddy are out playing somewhere else with new folks, they'll mess you up with theirs.
Oh, it's so much fun!
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: a Question About Variations....
Wow, that was clear as mud, wasn't it? Sorry Nate.
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: a Question About Variations....
Season to taste.
If you're playing with other people, it's best to at least TRY to sync up and figure out some way to play it together, lest the result sound mushy. That might mean you play it one way the first time, another way the second, etc... Then repeat the pattern. Good musicians should be able pick up on the difference pretty quickly, so long as you're doing a little to help them out.
If, on the other hand, you toss variations around willy-nilly, a good musician might either a) be a little annoyed that you're stymieing their efforts to play with you, or b) just give up trying to sync up with you at all.
Of course, nobody's perfect; it's not necessary to be completely obsessive about it. Sometimes it's nice to have a minor divergence of notes--but in general you're best off trying to make it sound tight first.
And of course there are some people who feel strongly about what notes, exactly, should go where. If you want to argue with these people, that's your prerogative... But I usually find it easiest (and less confrontational) to just play along with them instead.
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by Georgi
Re: a Question About Variations....
For me the most important thing is to feel the rhythm and phrasing in
synch. But it doesn't happen that often in my session.
If everyone is on the same wavelength with rhythm and phrasing then
the melodic variations go together more gracefully; it doesn't matter that
much then whether the notes clash or not.
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Hup
Re: a Question About Variations....
Check the 'comments' on tunes, where you'll often find enough variations to compare to get a better idea of where they can conflict or work in agreement, meaning especially exercising the ears, chasing up recordings of the same melody and listening... As happens incidental harmony isn't unusual, including playing in octaves. In a given beat the main or first note is the most valued, and the first of a measure even more so, though harmonic variations can occur, and rhythmic ones too. The identity of the given melody shouldn't be lost in the fun, and some variation is for the moment, maybe once in several repetitions of a given tune...
Just a small example, one measure of a jig, as given here at the start ~
~ | DAD AFA | ~ | D3 AFA | ~ | DAD ~A3 | ~ | D2 A AFA | ~
~ | DF/G/A ~A2 F | ~ | D3 AF/G/A | ~ | DFA ~AfA | ~ | d2 F A2 d | ~
~ | D>Fd Adc | ~ etc...
If you check the first note in each measure given, they are all D or d or D, and even in the second beat of that measure, the first note is A in all the examples given, but, as with all things, there can be exceptions...
The possibilities are endless ~ if not always properly seasoned or tastefully executed... As said, catch musicians you like and listen to how they handle it, the best education here isn't theory or a list of tricks but through your ears and giving someone else's take a try, then making decisions and eventually adopting what pleases you as your own, hopefully never losing track of the basic melody, keeping respect for that...
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by ceolachan
Playing a tune in a session where everyone has a slightly different way with it is the norm. I find it slightly awful when everyone plays EXACTLY note for note a given melody, making me wonder what book or recording they all chose to lift it from.
Sometimes difference can be a problem if it is drastic, which I've also experienced and which isnt' rare... Sometimes I compromise and follow what's being played, sometimes I just listen, chosing to keep the version I know and enjoy someone else's without necessarily joining in... But part of the enjoyment I get from this music is trying someone else's take on a tune...
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by ceolachan
Re: a Question About Variations....
thanks fellas. I've only been playing this music a year and a half and there's just a few of us around this immediate area, so I haven't had a wide enough exposure to the general practice.
Also, living in Appalachia as I do, we have our own tradition here, and it borows very heavily from Irish and Scottish music, so I really wasn't even sure if the fella I saw on the YouTube was talking Irish tradition, or playing an Irish tune in our "old time" tradtion
But this does give me alot to ponder in my own playing, but it also will help me to keep my ears open if I ever drop in somewhere in another town
if anybody has any other thoughts on the subject, please don't let this be the last word, but thank you guys for talking about variations and giving me some insights
# Posted on October 23rd 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: a Question About Variations....
Maybe the video the OP is talking about is the one I did. I did one where I do variations to Sean Bui on the whistle, and another where I do variations to The Earls Chair on uilleann pipes.
It's not applying an American Old Timey approach to Irish music, it's how Irish music is normally played.
There's the story about when Francis O Neill was collecting tunes for his collection around 1900: he himself didn't read sheet music, and neither did his source players, so he employed a violinist to transcribe the tunes. Well, one day the violinist sat down with a certain source musician (a fiddler if I recall). The source fiddler played a certain phrase of a tune and the violinist dutifully wrote it down on paper and then played it back for comment/correction. "No, not like that" the fiddler said and played the phrase again. The violinist then revised his music and again played what he had written. The source fiddler once again said "no, not like that" and again played the phrase. By now the violinist realised that the problem was that the source fiddler was playing the phrase different every time.
I know that I and many other players would be hard-pressed to play a tune exactly the same way twice or three times in a row: it's just not how we play.
Now, different players approach variation differently for sure. Some play a tune more or less the same way twice, almost saying to the listener "here is my version of this tune...got it?" and then on the third playing will play a big obvious variant, almost like setting the variation on a silver platter for the listener to feast on.
Then there are players who play every phrase differently every time that phrase recurs, so that the listener never really gets a sense of what the core melody is.
When a group of people are playing Irish reels or jigs together I think it's fairly rare for everyone to be playing exactly the same version- the only way that could happen is if everyone played together regularly and a consensus setting of the tune emerged.
I was transcribing a certain reel from a Bothy Band album years ago and was having trouble with a certain phrase. When slowed down to half speed I could finally figure out what was happening: the fiddle, flute, and pipes were playing three different notes at one point, G, A, and B!
A musicologist once described Irish trad music as "heterophonic". (Insert silly joke I suppose....)
What it means is that everyone in an ensemble are all playing different versions of the same tune together.
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by Richard D Cook
Re: a Question About Variations....
I should say that that was how I was taught: my first mentor, the guy who taught me how to play Irish music back in the 70's, said "it's better to learn 20 ways of playing one tune, than learn 20 tunes" and that's how I was taught.
The first tune I learned was McLeod's Reel. He taught me the basic tune, then said "you know the tune, now let's f%@# with it" by which he meant learn a lot of twists and turns to the tune so as to be able to play it over and over without every playing it the same way twice.
# Posted on October 25th 2009 by Richard D Cook
Re: a Question About Variations....
'Variation' also includes ~ adding to, or dividing a given beat, or taking away, reducing the number of notes or divisions, borrowing time from one note and lending it to another (> or < / swing and snap) ~ as a simple example on one 2/4 bar/measure, polka time ~
|: G2 GA | ~ |: G/A/G/F/ GA | ~ |: G2- GA | (= |: G3 A |) ~ |: G2 G>A | ~
# Posted on October 26th 2009 by ceolachan