The session at the Fisherman's Tavern, one of the longest running sessions in Tayside, has been shut down by the Dundee City Council. A friend of mine who has been a regular at that session posted the following:
"Following last Thursday's session, a complaint was received by Dundee City Council regarding noise levels. So on Friday a licensing inspector went round to the Fishermans and issued a Section 14 Notice prohibiting the playing of live music."
The pub, to their credit, is bringing in their lawyer to fight this. There is to be a council meeting in November and a number of Tayside musicians and others with connections to the Fish are organizing themselves to invade this meeting. There will probably be a petition as well. I don't know what else will happen but everyone's keen to fight for this long running session. Here is the Scottish government making a lot of noise (and spending a lot of money) on this Homecoming thing and letting the world know how great Scottish culture is and in the meantime their representatives are doing their best to curtail Scottish music.
I thought I'd post on thesession.org to let the wider world know what's going on. I have played at this session, as have of a few who post here and in any case there is a sizable Scottish/UK contingent on this website. There but for the grace of God go the rest of us, etc. etc. If anything happens in terms of an organized protest against the Dundee City Council's stupid and draconian actions, I am sure it will be posted here. In the meantime, ranting is good too.
So they are also prohibiting:
(1) Multiple television screens blaring football?
(2) People drinking and getting louder and louder as the night wears on?
(3) Festivals? (Especially with cheesy recorded music)
(4) Crowds?
(5) Traffic?
Good lord, my book group would get tossed out of the place after the third bottle was opened.
I told you 1000 watts was too much to run your uilleann pipes through. You were just asking for trouble. It's a wonder the walls didn't come tumbling down...
There has to be more to this story than is being revealed. I cannot conceive how an unamplified session within a pub could possibly lead to noise complaints.
The Fisherman's is a very small bar. You'd be hard pushed to get more than a dozen musicians in.Who made the complaint, and what what was the nature of it ?
Before I left Dundee, the Fish was a regular haunt of mine, though that was before I was playing in sessions. I've only attended the session once on a trip back a couple of years ago, but it was maybe 12 to 15 people (filling the entire back half of the main bar) and not all that loud - I saw no highland/Uilleann pipers there and I cannot imagine that the session was significantly louder than a typical Friday night as I knew it from my days growing up in Barnhill. Sounds like there is a sub-text here - maybe an ongoing long term argument between pub and neighbours? Anyway, everyone knows that the Dundee council are not only corrupt, but also one of the cheapest councils to buy... Sad.
It would be good to hear a few of the particulars, Silver Spear.
I'm only posting the following because it is all I can find from your locality; http://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/ehts/antisocialnoise/
I tried to look up the session (Fisherman's Tavern) but it looks like the one submitted by Jamie has been deleted. Good luck with keeping the session going..
I don't know any more details than the ones I posted, unfortunately. Maybe No Cause for Alarm will be able to find out more about the situation than I can, as he lives near-ish and that session was one of his locals. If I do find out more from my contacts, I'll let you all know. Anyway, when I went there, it was your standard session, though there might be one or two sets of border pipes. Still, not any louder than your usual juke box.
Not sure of the details really although I am certainly finding out. I do gather there were 3 border pipes going at the same time that night ( ) but nonetheless that does not warrant the pub being banned from playing live music the following day.
The session has been running for over 30 years I believe and is one of the longest running sessions in Scotland. Hopefully it can all be resolved before Thursday but we shall see. I certainly do not see this being a permanant issue.
"Anyway, everyone knows that the Dundee council are not only corrupt, but also one of the cheapest councils to buy."
I, for one, do not know that. Either way the Council has recently had a change of administration and I would hope that this will help see some improvements and the allaying of any such accusations. Anyway it sounds like an over-enthusiasic officer and will hopefully all be resolved soon.
Come fill up my cup, come fill up my can,
Come saddle the horses, and call up the men,
Come open your gates, and let me gae free,
For it’s up with the bonnets of Bonny Dundee!
So if tae Dundee ye ever gae,
And if them stairs is dark,
Just tak yer sillar frae yer inside pouch,
And tie it tae the tail o yer sark...
The Brisbane session has just moved after complaints from the management that they exceeded the legal noise level. There were three guitars and a singer present when the first complaint was made...so the session moved somewhere else.
Often the noise complaints are issued at a venue that has loud music and also has trad sessions on quieter nights, but it's not the trad sessions that prompt the complaint of course. The problem is the trad sessions get swept out along with the loud music because they fall under the distinction of being "live music."
But this session venue does not have loud music any other nights of the week. It just has loud customers. It does not have gigs and does not use PA at least outside specific festival times.
The complaints that have been made to the pub in the past have been about the Thursday night music and they have tended to be from grumpy neighbours who don't seem to grasp what moving next to 2 pubs involves.
I would also like to clarify, having re-read TheSilverSpear's initial post, that a licensing inspector from Dundee City Council does not get to be classified as a representative of the Scottish Government. That would be the same as suggesting that I was a representative of the Pope! Neither can Dundee City Council be considered as such.
There is also not really the suggestion that Council meetings are to be invaded. Any attempts to do this would definitely be counter-productive. What the plans would appear to be would be to make sure that people turn up in force to make their feelings heard at any Council meetings that are open to the public.
Anyway, as I said it is best for folk not to get carried away with themselves over this. Hopefully it can all be sorted out amicably and speedily without the pub having to spend too much on lawyers or the barricades to be raised.
I was at the 'offending session' and whilst there were at one stage 3 pipers they did not all play at once - shortly after the 3rd arrived one of the others left. The pipers were also playing whistles more than pipes that night anyway. There cant have been more than 12 musicians at the most there throughout the night.
The fish has been my local my entire life (from pub lunches watching the rugby when i was wee) and it is one of the main reasons i became interested traditional music - i have now been playing in the session for almost 4 yrs.
As far as I am aware the Fish has no other live music during the week (it certainly didnt when i lived in the area - although granted i do only make it to the Ferry once a month or so now). There have been complaints about noise in the past when a session has overrun but both the barstaff and musicians have always acted upon these complaints, I cant understand this time why it went to the council.
Maybe I'm just being dumb and American here, Alistair, but are City Council officials not elected officials and is a city council not a government? If they're not, I'd really like to know what they are.
My use of the word "invade" was somewhat tongue in cheek. Try not to take it so damned literally.
Council officials are not elected. Unlike in America we do not elect everything from President down to Environmental Health Officer. People are employed to do a job by the Council. Dundee City Council has elections like all Councils. In those elections they elect Councillors. Councillors represent their wards on the Council and are responsible for the governing of the City. Much of the work is done by the employed people however.
There is no way that any elected Councillor would have been involved in the issuing of a notice under Section 14. They would however be involved later in the decision making. A city Council is just that, a Council. It would not be called a Government and is an entirely seperate body from "The Scottish Government" that has been investing in the Year of Homecoming.
Fair play, no cause for alarm, it's under Broughty Ferry.
10-16 Fort Street, Broughty Ferry, Dundee, Angus, DD5 2AD
hope this link is good for the closest map location.; http://maps.google.co.uk/?q=DD5%202AD
While visiting from the states 2 years ago my daughter and I played and she was back this past summer.
Best session I've played in, anywhere. I've got many friends there who've been regulars for years, even Jaffa cakes have been made available...
Closed for playin pipes in a session? In Scotland?!
To Eilidh an' a' - hope it gets sorted out!
Maybe Dundee Council has upped its' prices since my day, but if pressed for examples, I would point to what they allowed to be done with their prime waterfront sites between the bridges. (i.e. slapping a hotel and casino there blocking off everyone else's access and view.). Not to mention the Lochee retail park catastrophe! I've been out of Dundee for a while though, so it is possible that they have either cleaned up their act or got more expensive? To their credit, they have been demolishing the worst of the high rise slums in recent years.
I lived over a Dundee pub for years (Kinghorne Bar, now the High bar?) and never got any joy from the council for complaints about the pub noise (mainly loud people standing outside my window at chucking out time.).
Definitely something fishy going on. The council official cannot issue a section 14 notice without a warning to reduce the volume first. And he doesn't go round to the pub and measure the volume, the volume in the pub is irrelevant. He goes to the person who made the complaint's house and measures it from there. Every effort to get the volume reduced is always made before a blanket banning order.
More and better information is needed before people wade in and make matters worse. All this hearsay is just plain silly.
However, there is a well known scam where property developers buy flats cheep because they are next to pubs and then use very legal means possible to get the pubs closed down, thereby increasing the value of their property. All perfectly legal.
As I said it sounds like a bit of a mistake and I said I hoped it would be resolved soon. I now believe it will be fixed by tonight. I hope everyone has enjoyed getting on their high-horses though. It is just like the good old days.
Hi Emily, thanks for starting this thread. Over the years, I've only made it to the Fisherman's a few times, but generally had a great time. It would be a very sad day for the session scene in Scotland were this session to be stopped.
By the way, I'm not on Facebook - can anyone sign this petition, or do you have to be a member?
No cause for alarm? What are you hearing Alistair?
The session is unamplified Scottish and Irish trad music, mostly fiddles, guitars, voice, flutes, whistles, small pipes and border pipes. Highland pipes do not feature. There is no PA. Sometimes there are just a handful of people, but sometimes there are numbers in the high teens. There have been complaints directly to the pub before from neighbours, which resulted in us keeping the door shut at the back (where we play) even on the hottest nights of the year, which is fine. The only amplified event that occured in the pub was the Burns supper recitation of Tam O'Shanter by the excellent, but sadly recently deceased John Kelly - and frankly, you could only just hear that in the back bar. As far as I know, there has not been a previous complaint or request to reduce noise directly from the council, but we have had complaints, as I say, directly to the pub from neighbours.
I'm hoping that this will not last, as the session seems to be really evolving well at the moment, with some great pipe and fiddle music.
I was at the Fish on Thursday night and it was definitely no louder than any other session night. I find it strange that pubs are allowed to blast out over-amplified kareoke but an unamplified traditional music session is considered "too loud"!
Since when has it been illegal to play music?!
I wasn't there on thursday, but I can't imagine it getting that loud. I completely agree with eilidh, other pubs are alot worse. Musicians at the fish are always conscientious and people should feel priveleged to have traditional music playing on their doorstep.
If it wasn't for the session I wouldn't be playing the fiddle today, and its ridiculous to think that a noise complaint can kill off tradition
I'm raging.
It does seem that there is an increasing tendency for people to move to an area, then suddenly complain about some particular aspect of the place that was there already.
What happened to caveat emptor ( let the buyer beware ) ?
Instances I have found including a lady in Northumberland some years ago who bought a riverside residence, cut down the trees on the riverbank for a better view ( that was criminal on its own in my view ) then discovered that there was, horror of horrors, a camping site on the opposite bank, which she had never noticed before, and did her damndest to have shut down by any legal means possible.
A village hall where the new residents across the road complained about Saturday-night dances.
A new block of flats built behind a recording studio.
A couple who moved into the peaceful Chiltern village of Jordans, then discovered that the local yearly village cricket match on the green might send a ball over their hedge.
etc., etc.....
Amusingly, it works the other way too. Like the people who bought flats with a sea view in Portobello who were livid when another block of flats was put up between them and their view. They never realised that there had been a block of flats on that plot many years before that had burned down, so there was already a precedent for the planning permission.
... well-known scam ...
Another one is to buy a pub, close it down after a while, and then turn it into a block of apartments. This happened a few years ago in Bristol to an excellent session pub, the pub where I went to all my sessions for the first two or three years, and where Ben Lennon did one of his rare gigs in England (possibly the sole one?).
You can have five hundred people packed into an upstairs room watching widescreen football - no problem.
But try and get a musician and 6 morris dancers up there, and you need a structural survey, fire assesment, extra toilets, stairlift et al.
How can some "official" stop something when he didn't even hear it? Must be the same person who tried to ban pipes in the Royal Mile during the Festival.
I was there last week and the noise level was no louder than any of the previous sessions.We should be told who made the complaint and at what time was the noise level unacceptable.
Unfortunately Peter you will be unable to find out who made the complaint due to data protection. I am awaiting a phone call to confirm it but I believe that it should all be sorted in time for Thursday. I will be sure to let you know.
It is always possible that a local resident called the Night Noise Team (yes that is a real team) and they came round and conducted a test that night and returned the following day to serve their notice.
NCfA:
>Unfortunately Peter you will be unable to find out who made >the complaint due to data protection
It might seem unfortunate, but it is a good thing that the anonymity of individuals is protected. There are plenty of unsavory pub & club owners around that might take a complaint personally*. However a complaint should not be taken at face value by the authorities.
- Chris
*not aimed at the landlords of the pub in question, just a general observation.
Back in the seventies I use to play with an Irish/Country/Pops Band. On one occasion we played in a club in Slough where there was a set of Traffic Lights on stage. When the Green Light was lit the volume level from the band was OK. When the music got a bit louder the lights went to amber and if the music volume increased further the lights went to Red. Within a few minutes on Red the power to the PA was automatically knocked off. It happened to us during a Rock and Roll selection. Unfortunately when the power was automatically restored the sudden surge blew the speakers in the PA, and so ended the first lesson.
Those noise limiter things are a pain - and don't stop people complaining (funnily enough, never accepting any responsibility for having bought a house next to a village hall).
My favourite complaint from someone living across the road from our village hall: "I didn't buy a holiday home here in order to have my evenings ruined by a bunch of locals." Takes your breath away, really.
this is the very latest as of 5pm tonight. Tracey from the pub phoned me on her day off. I cannot stress enough how much the fish is behind us on this. They have as well as getting their HQ well in on the act have now already applied for a change to their licence to allow live music. they will have a sign up in their window with a probation period ... Read moreof 21 days. there after their request for change will be reviewed by the licensing board. Until that time they cannot support any live music in the pub. Apparently the main problem with the neighbours stems from the beer festival 3weeks ago although the bagpipes have been mentioned as a problem.
Until then we will have to do with an alternative ... John Black would welcome us at the Fort next wednesday if people are interested.
Which kind of bagpipes were the problem ? Wouldn't it be a bit of a slap in the face to the Fisherman's for you to move to another pub just along the road so soon, especially if they are so keen for you to stay there ?
I'm not familiar with the pub in question , but it was described as pretty small, so I'm guessing the session provides most of the crowd on a session night. Given that they seem to be doing their best to help, and it sounds like a pub ctually interested in the music, then it might be an idea to try and get at least afew of the regular sessioneers to turn up on the normal night sans instruments to show support for the pub. Hold a domino tournament or something (I hear blow football makes for a good night). Mightn't be all that attractive for anyone travelling a distance, but maybe some of the more local guys could make it for an hour or two?
In the absence of a licence for live music, why don't yous get a big telly and put on some football really loud and holler away at the thing all night making twice as much noise as the session? That'll learn 'em.
I wasn't there but I believe the pipes in question were a set of broder pipes. There were 3 pipers over the course of the evening but apparently not all playing at once. After the third one arrived the other 2 left.
If other folk are heading through to the Fish tonight to show support then I will happily go through and had been thinking about that anyway. As Chris points out though, it is quite a long way from Perth. In the meanwhile the proposed session in the Fort is on a different night and is a venue that has hosted sessions for the last couple of years for special occasions.
Play in another room and relay it through to a wide-screen at maximum volume - then the noise police will just pop their heads round the door and say, "it's only the telly - can't do nuffink about that"
I believe the week before hand some of the session goers got attacked by candlestick-holder missiles as they left the pub. But there seems to be no action taken on that. Shocking really!
The session is back on! I guess the licensing board gave the pub the legal permission to continue having live music. If you're in the Dundee area (I'm not) you should go to Broughty Ferry tonight and have a celebratory tune.
Session killed due to noise complaints!
Session killed due to noise complaints!
The session at the Fisherman's Tavern, one of the longest running sessions in Tayside, has been shut down by the Dundee City Council. A friend of mine who has been a regular at that session posted the following:
"Following last Thursday's session, a complaint was received by Dundee City Council regarding noise levels. So on Friday a licensing inspector went round to the Fishermans and issued a Section 14 Notice prohibiting the playing of live music."
The pub, to their credit, is bringing in their lawyer to fight this. There is to be a council meeting in November and a number of Tayside musicians and others with connections to the Fish are organizing themselves to invade this meeting. There will probably be a petition as well. I don't know what else will happen but everyone's keen to fight for this long running session. Here is the Scottish government making a lot of noise (and spending a lot of money) on this Homecoming thing and letting the world know how great Scottish culture is and in the meantime their representatives are doing their best to curtail Scottish music.
I thought I'd post on thesession.org to let the wider world know what's going on. I have played at this session, as have of a few who post here and in any case there is a sizable Scottish/UK contingent on this website. There but for the grace of God go the rest of us, etc. etc. If anything happens in terms of an organized protest against the Dundee City Council's stupid and draconian actions, I am sure it will be posted here. In the meantime, ranting is good too.
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
So they are also prohibiting:
(1) Multiple television screens blaring football?
(2) People drinking and getting louder and louder as the night wears on?
(3) Festivals? (Especially with cheesy recorded music)
(4) Crowds?
(5) Traffic?
Good lord, my book group would get tossed out of the place after the third bottle was opened.
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by Michele Sims
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Can we assume it was an acoustic session and were pipes involved at times?
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
GRRRRRRRRRR!!!
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
I told you 1000 watts was too much to run your uilleann pipes through. You were just asking for trouble. It's a wonder the walls didn't come tumbling down...
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by ceolachan
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
There has to be more to this story than is being revealed. I cannot conceive how an unamplified session within a pub could possibly lead to noise complaints.
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by deeor
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
- So - who are the neighbours?
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by nicholas
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
The Fisherman's is a very small bar. You'd be hard pushed to get more than a dozen musicians in.Who made the complaint, and what what was the nature of it ?
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by Kenny
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Before I left Dundee, the Fish was a regular haunt of mine, though that was before I was playing in sessions. I've only attended the session once on a trip back a couple of years ago, but it was maybe 12 to 15 people (filling the entire back half of the main bar) and not all that loud - I saw no highland/Uilleann pipers there and I cannot imagine that the session was significantly louder than a typical Friday night as I knew it from my days growing up in Barnhill. Sounds like there is a sub-text here - maybe an ongoing long term argument between pub and neighbours? Anyway, everyone knows that the Dundee council are not only corrupt, but also one of the cheapest councils to buy... Sad.
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by Crackpot
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
And please post the petition details if one is organised.
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by Crackpot
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
It would be good to hear a few of the particulars, Silver Spear.
I'm only posting the following because it is all I can find from your locality;
http://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/ehts/antisocialnoise/
I tried to look up the session (Fisherman's Tavern) but it looks like the one submitted by Jamie has been deleted. Good luck with keeping the session going..
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
I don't know any more details than the ones I posted, unfortunately. Maybe No Cause for Alarm will be able to find out more about the situation than I can, as he lives near-ish and that session was one of his locals. If I do find out more from my contacts, I'll let you all know. Anyway, when I went there, it was your standard session, though there might be one or two sets of border pipes. Still, not any louder than your usual juke box.
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Not sure of the details really although I am certainly finding out. I do gather there were 3 border pipes going at the same time that night (
) but nonetheless that does not warrant the pub being banned from playing live music the following day.
The session has been running for over 30 years I believe and is one of the longest running sessions in Scotland. Hopefully it can all be resolved before Thursday but we shall see. I certainly do not see this being a permanant issue.
"Anyway, everyone knows that the Dundee council are not only corrupt, but also one of the cheapest councils to buy."
I, for one, do not know that. Either way the Council has recently had a change of administration and I would hope that this will help see some improvements and the allaying of any such accusations. Anyway it sounds like an over-enthusiasic officer and will hopefully all be resolved soon.
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Come fill up my cup, come fill up my can,
Come saddle the horses, and call up the men,
Come open your gates, and let me gae free,
For it’s up with the bonnets of Bonny Dundee!
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
So if tae Dundee ye ever gae,
And if them stairs is dark,
Just tak yer sillar frae yer inside pouch,
And tie it tae the tail o yer sark...
The Brisbane session has just moved after complaints from the management that they exceeded the legal noise level. There were three guitars and a singer present when the first complaint was made...so the session moved somewhere else.
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by bc_box_player
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Often the noise complaints are issued at a venue that has loud music and also has trad sessions on quieter nights, but it's not the trad sessions that prompt the complaint of course. The problem is the trad sessions get swept out along with the loud music because they fall under the distinction of being "live music."
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by Phantom Button
do you have some particulars?
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
But this session venue does not have loud music any other nights of the week. It just has loud customers. It does not have gigs and does not use PA at least outside specific festival times.
The complaints that have been made to the pub in the past have been about the Thursday night music and they have tended to be from grumpy neighbours who don't seem to grasp what moving next to 2 pubs involves.
I would also like to clarify, having re-read TheSilverSpear's initial post, that a licensing inspector from Dundee City Council does not get to be classified as a representative of the Scottish Government. That would be the same as suggesting that I was a representative of the Pope! Neither can Dundee City Council be considered as such.
There is also not really the suggestion that Council meetings are to be invaded. Any attempts to do this would definitely be counter-productive. What the plans would appear to be would be to make sure that people turn up in force to make their feelings heard at any Council meetings that are open to the public.
Anyway, as I said it is best for folk not to get carried away with themselves over this. Hopefully it can all be sorted out amicably and speedily without the pub having to spend too much on lawyers or the barricades to be raised.
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
This is the session in question:
http://www.thesession.org/sessions/display/2203
Jamie's original entry seemed to disappear a year or so ago in what can best be described as a database burp!
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
I was at the 'offending session' and whilst there were at one stage 3 pipers they did not all play at once - shortly after the 3rd arrived one of the others left. The pipers were also playing whistles more than pipes that night anyway. There cant have been more than 12 musicians at the most there throughout the night.
The fish has been my local my entire life (from pub lunches watching the rugby when i was wee) and it is one of the main reasons i became interested traditional music - i have now been playing in the session for almost 4 yrs.
As far as I am aware the Fish has no other live music during the week (it certainly didnt when i lived in the area - although granted i do only make it to the Ferry once a month or so now). There have been complaints about noise in the past when a session has overrun but both the barstaff and musicians have always acted upon these complaints, I cant understand this time why it went to the council.
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by luce1889
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Maybe I'm just being dumb and American here, Alistair, but are City Council officials not elected officials and is a city council not a government? If they're not, I'd really like to know what they are.
My use of the word "invade" was somewhat tongue in cheek. Try not to take it so damned literally.
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Sorry, that came off as far more snappy than I should have been. Not the best night.
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Maybe.
Council officials are not elected. Unlike in America we do not elect everything from President down to Environmental Health Officer. People are employed to do a job by the Council. Dundee City Council has elections like all Councils. In those elections they elect Councillors. Councillors represent their wards on the Council and are responsible for the governing of the City. Much of the work is done by the employed people however.
There is no way that any elected Councillor would have been involved in the issuing of a notice under Section 14. They would however be involved later in the decision making. A city Council is just that, a Council. It would not be called a Government and is an entirely seperate body from "The Scottish Government" that has been investing in the Year of Homecoming.
I hope that the above helps to clarify matters.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Apology accepted - please re-read my subsequent post accordingly.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Fair play, no cause for alarm, it's under Broughty Ferry.
10-16 Fort Street, Broughty Ferry, Dundee, Angus, DD5 2AD
hope this link is good for the closest map location.;
http://maps.google.co.uk/?q=DD5%202AD
Thanks for keeping this updated.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Sad state of affairs...
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Oops, I meant to say
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
So who is responsible for giving the notice?
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Well I am not a licensing lawyer but by all accounts it was the inspector who visited. I am not sure where the confusion in this is.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
While visiting from the states 2 years ago my daughter and I played and she was back this past summer.
Best session I've played in, anywhere. I've got many friends there who've been regulars for years, even Jaffa cakes have been made available...
Closed for playin pipes in a session? In Scotland?!
To Eilidh an' a' - hope it gets sorted out!
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by kruther4d
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
what have the romans ever done for us?
okay, apart from the highland pipes, when has 'acoustic music', be it outdoors or in, ever been louder than anything else?
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by lisaniska
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Maybe Dundee Council has upped its' prices since my day, but if pressed for examples, I would point to what they allowed to be done with their prime waterfront sites between the bridges. (i.e. slapping a hotel and casino there blocking off everyone else's access and view.). Not to mention the Lochee retail park catastrophe! I've been out of Dundee for a while though, so it is possible that they have either cleaned up their act or got more expensive? To their credit, they have been demolishing the worst of the high rise slums in recent years.
I lived over a Dundee pub for years (Kinghorne Bar, now the High bar?) and never got any joy from the council for complaints about the pub noise (mainly loud people standing outside my window at chucking out time.).
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by Crackpot
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
I would agree though, that it is probably just an overly enthusiastic junior official.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by Crackpot
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
There is now a petition group on Facebook.
http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/event.php?eid=158470037625&ref=mf
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Definitely something fishy going on. The council official cannot issue a section 14 notice without a warning to reduce the volume first. And he doesn't go round to the pub and measure the volume, the volume in the pub is irrelevant. He goes to the person who made the complaint's house and measures it from there. Every effort to get the volume reduced is always made before a blanket banning order.
More and better information is needed before people wade in and make matters worse. All this hearsay is just plain silly.
However, there is a well known scam where property developers buy flats cheep because they are next to pubs and then use very legal means possible to get the pubs closed down, thereby increasing the value of their property. All perfectly legal.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
As I said it sounds like a bit of a mistake and I said I hoped it would be resolved soon. I now believe it will be fixed by tonight. I hope everyone has enjoyed getting on their high-horses though. It is just like the good old days.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
So there was no cause for alarm then?
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Hi Emily, thanks for starting this thread. Over the years, I've only made it to the Fisherman's a few times, but generally had a great time. It would be a very sad day for the session scene in Scotland were this session to be stopped.
By the way, I'm not on Facebook - can anyone sign this petition, or do you have to be a member?
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by Ron P
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
No cause for alarm? What are you hearing Alistair?
The session is unamplified Scottish and Irish trad music, mostly fiddles, guitars, voice, flutes, whistles, small pipes and border pipes. Highland pipes do not feature. There is no PA. Sometimes there are just a handful of people, but sometimes there are numbers in the high teens. There have been complaints directly to the pub before from neighbours, which resulted in us keeping the door shut at the back (where we play) even on the hottest nights of the year, which is fine. The only amplified event that occured in the pub was the Burns supper recitation of Tam O'Shanter by the excellent, but sadly recently deceased John Kelly - and frankly, you could only just hear that in the back bar. As far as I know, there has not been a previous complaint or request to reduce noise directly from the council, but we have had complaints, as I say, directly to the pub from neighbours.
I'm hoping that this will not last, as the session seems to be really evolving well at the moment, with some great pipe and fiddle music.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by Jamie
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
I was at the Fish on Thursday night and it was definitely no louder than any other session night. I find it strange that pubs are allowed to blast out over-amplified kareoke but an unamplified traditional music session is considered "too loud"!
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by supertattie
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Since when has it been illegal to play music?!
I wasn't there on thursday, but I can't imagine it getting that loud. I completely agree with eilidh, other pubs are alot worse. Musicians at the fish are always conscientious and people should feel priveleged to have traditional music playing on their doorstep.
If it wasn't for the session I wouldn't be playing the fiddle today, and its ridiculous to think that a noise complaint can kill off tradition
I'm raging.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by larathing
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
It does seem that there is an increasing tendency for people to move to an area, then suddenly complain about some particular aspect of the place that was there already.
What happened to caveat emptor ( let the buyer beware ) ?
Instances I have found including a lady in Northumberland some years ago who bought a riverside residence, cut down the trees on the riverbank for a better view ( that was criminal on its own in my view ) then discovered that there was, horror of horrors, a camping site on the opposite bank, which she had never noticed before, and did her damndest to have shut down by any legal means possible.
A village hall where the new residents across the road complained about Saturday-night dances.
A new block of flats built behind a recording studio.
A couple who moved into the peaceful Chiltern village of Jordans, then discovered that the local yearly village cricket match on the green might send a ball over their hedge.
etc., etc.....
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Amusingly, it works the other way too. Like the people who bought flats with a sea view in Portobello who were livid when another block of flats was put up between them and their view. They never realised that there had been a block of flats on that plot many years before that had burned down, so there was already a precedent for the planning permission.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
... well-known scam ...
Another one is to buy a pub, close it down after a while, and then turn it into a block of apartments. This happened a few years ago in Bristol to an excellent session pub, the pub where I went to all my sessions for the first two or three years, and where Ben Lennon did one of his rare gigs in England (possibly the sole one?).
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
You can have five hundred people packed into an upstairs room watching widescreen football - no problem.
But try and get a musician and 6 morris dancers up there, and you need a structural survey, fire assesment, extra toilets, stairlift et al.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by geoffwright
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Nothing like supporting the arts, eh?
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Silence citizen, and go back to blankly staring at your officially state-sanctioned televised sporting events!
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
The UK government does realize that 1984 was intended as a warning, not a guide, right? Oh well...another happy customer of the nanny state.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by mcdevincabe
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
How can some "official" stop something when he didn't even hear it? Must be the same person who tried to ban pipes in the Royal Mile during the Festival.
I was there last week and the noise level was no louder than any of the previous sessions.We should be told who made the complaint and at what time was the noise level unacceptable.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by chieftrow
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Some churches in London have been ordered to "sing softly"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/london/8316287.stm
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Unfortunately Peter you will be unable to find out who made the complaint due to data protection. I am awaiting a phone call to confirm it but I believe that it should all be sorted in time for Thursday. I will be sure to let you know.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
if they're going to show sporting events, they ought to stop showing cricket then, it's obviously destroying the country's sense of humour.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Was the complaint made by a health and safety officer with a pocket decibel meter, perchance?
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
It is always possible that a local resident called the Night Noise Team (yes that is a real team) and they came round and conducted a test that night and returned the following day to serve their notice.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
So, sessions during the day are exempt? just kidding!
The Night Noise Team was mentioned in the link above;
http://www.dundeecity.gov.uk/ehts/antisocialnoise/
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
NCfA:
>Unfortunately Peter you will be unable to find out who made >the complaint due to data protection
It might seem unfortunate, but it is a good thing that the anonymity of individuals is protected. There are plenty of unsavory pub & club owners around that might take a complaint personally*. However a complaint should not be taken at face value by the authorities.
- Chris
*not aimed at the landlords of the pub in question, just a general observation.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Sessions are not allowed during the day, the Night Noise Team are asleep. of course.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Not just sessions;
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8316287.stm
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by goldfrog
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
I'm getting a sense of deja-lu
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Reminded me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y_u1QrZLrk
Before you click, please note that there is lots of swearing!!
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Yes, Conan - thanks for that.
Pretty sure it didn't apply in Broughty Ferry, though.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by Kenny
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Back in the seventies I use to play with an Irish/Country/Pops Band. On one occasion we played in a club in Slough where there was a set of Traffic Lights on stage. When the Green Light was lit the volume level from the band was OK. When the music got a bit louder the lights went to amber and if the music volume increased further the lights went to Red. Within a few minutes on Red the power to the PA was automatically knocked off. It happened to us during a Rock and Roll selection. Unfortunately when the power was automatically restored the sudden surge blew the speakers in the PA, and so ended the first lesson.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by Free Reed
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Conan, you beat me to it. The funniest thing on youtube until the next hardy Bucks episode !!
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by Patkiwi
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Those noise limiter things are a pain - and don't stop people complaining (funnily enough, never accepting any responsibility for having bought a house next to a village hall).
My favourite complaint from someone living across the road from our village hall: "I didn't buy a holiday home here in order to have my evenings ruined by a bunch of locals." Takes your breath away, really.
# Posted on October 21st 2009 by Mark Harmer
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Update from Paul:
this is the very latest as of 5pm tonight. Tracey from the pub phoned me on her day off. I cannot stress enough how much the fish is behind us on this. They have as well as getting their HQ well in on the act have now already applied for a change to their licence to allow live music. they will have a sign up in their window with a probation period ... Read moreof 21 days. there after their request for change will be reviewed by the licensing board. Until that time they cannot support any live music in the pub. Apparently the main problem with the neighbours stems from the beer festival 3weeks ago although the bagpipes have been mentioned as a problem.
Until then we will have to do with an alternative ... John Black would welcome us at the Fort next wednesday if people are interested.
# Posted on October 21st 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Which kind of bagpipes were the problem ? Wouldn't it be a bit of a slap in the face to the Fisherman's for you to move to another pub just along the road so soon, especially if they are so keen for you to stay there ?
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by Kenny
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
I think Kenny has a point.
I'm not familiar with the pub in question , but it was described as pretty small, so I'm guessing the session provides most of the crowd on a session night. Given that they seem to be doing their best to help, and it sounds like a pub ctually interested in the music, then it might be an idea to try and get at least afew of the regular sessioneers to turn up on the normal night sans instruments to show support for the pub. Hold a domino tournament or something (I hear blow football makes for a good night). Mightn't be all that attractive for anyone travelling a distance, but maybe some of the more local guys could make it for an hour or two?
- chris
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
In the absence of a licence for live music, why don't yous get a big telly and put on some football really loud and holler away at the thing all night making twice as much noise as the session? That'll learn 'em.
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
I wasn't there but I believe the pipes in question were a set of broder pipes. There were 3 pipers over the course of the evening but apparently not all playing at once. After the third one arrived the other 2 left.
If other folk are heading through to the Fish tonight to show support then I will happily go through and had been thinking about that anyway. As Chris points out though, it is quite a long way from Perth. In the meanwhile the proposed session in the Fort is on a different night and is a venue that has hosted sessions for the last couple of years for special occasions.
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
That could be your problem nocause: the broader they is, the louder they is
The set up with the other pub sounds fine whne you put it like that
- chris
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Play in another room and relay it through to a wide-screen at maximum volume - then the noise police will just pop their heads round the door and say, "it's only the telly - can't do nuffink about that"
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by RichardB
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
most pub noise complaints are about people outside the pub when leaving or standing around smoking, rather than noise from inside.
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by Bren
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
I believe the week before hand some of the session goers got attacked by candlestick-holder missiles as they left the pub. But there seems to be no action taken on that. Shocking really!
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
From today's Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/oct/21/police-law
I'll alos post this in its own thread as this issue has come up repeatedly
- chris
# Posted on October 22nd 2009 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: Session killed due to noise complaints!
Good news!
The session is back on! I guess the licensing board gave the pub the legal permission to continue having live music. If you're in the Dundee area (I'm not) you should go to Broughty Ferry tonight and have a celebratory tune.
# Posted on November 19th 2009 by DrSilverSpear