I don't think there's any magic solution. If you have a lot of
natural talent, you'll pick them up fast. If you're more towards
the average, it takes more repetition. Mozart - so the legend goes
- could hear a piece played on the piano once and play it
back. We're not talking about simple Irish tunes either.
The knack is to really listen. You have to clear your mind of what your mind may assume you are hearing. Human brains have amazing abilities at filling in gaps in perception.
Try that illusion with the two of spades. Hold it up and look at it horizontally with one eye and stare at one of the black spades. The other one disappears because its image falls on where your optic nerve at the back of the eye is. But rather than you seeing nothing, your brain fills the space in with a conglomeration of the surroundings.
The same thing happens with tunes. If an unusual run happens that your brain does not hear correctly, it fills in the gaps. Rather than you hearing nothing, it invents something to go in its place.
Listen really really hard. Concentrate. Don't allow yourself to imagine that you heard it correctly.
That slow pace is grand, over time you just get better at it, as long as you keep trying.
What you could do perhaps, with your computer teknology would be take a phrase from a tune you want to learn , just one, and loop it. Only you can tell what speed is a challenge, but take it at a speed that IS a challenge, but not so much of a challenge that you fall.
Try lilting along with the phrase, once you can sing it, you can pretty much play it.
Also in my mind I know where the sounds I want live on the fiddle, If I think of a phrase I can pretty much 'visualise' my fingers making that phrase, only its not visual.. My fingers actually make the movements.
So try taking a tune you have already and singing it in your head while associating the finger movements of your instrument, but not holding the instrument. Again perhaps take small chunks, short phrases.
Take typical riffs, say a triplet run up to 'd', or a 'd to f ' riff, sing and visualise playing it, then when you recognise this chunk, its easy to identify and play it when you hear it in a tune.
As your repertoire increases you will have a larger bunch of typical riffs that you can identify when you hear them, its not about individual notes, but about short phrases.
Once you have these short phrases in mind and fingers, then you eventually can pick up longer phrases that are perhaps built on 2 or more short bits.
Basically you need to associate the sounds you hear directly to the finger movement on the instrument.
Take it in small stages. a question and answer type thing might be helpfull, with the help of a friend or computer?someone/thing plays a riff and you have to copy it after them. nice and simple at first.
This is how I learnt to play many tunes, with someone sat playing the tune phrase by phrase. As an exercise though you dont have to actually learn a tune , but just practice picking up phrases, with no need to remember them. Ideally of course you want someone to sit with you and show/teach you tunes phrase by phrase. But these exercises will help you learn from someone a bit quicker anyhow.
Now memorising is another subject altogether!!!
Learning little bits of runs and things away from actual tunes so that you have pre-repaired building blocks would be precisely the way to train your mind to assume you know how a tune goes, when you don't. Your brain will put your blocks together rather than really listen because it's easier that way. Your brain will always follow the path of least resistance. Brains are like that.
You hear this all time and it's very frustrating. For example, people playing the Salamanca "fg afdg bgeg" instead of how is should go, "fg afde gbeg"
Much much better to have no preconceptions of how you might think a particular run might go. Listen a fresh every time.
Maybe not be what you have in mind, but I'm finding working through these useful for improving my ear. http://www.mattandshannonheaton.com/totm.html
and then trying to do the same with tunes I am learning.
With the kids in my school, especially the jazz band (where we avoid notation as much as possible) I make them sing everything. During rehearsal, I'll sing the clarinet part, for example, then make the clarinets sing it back, then they play it. We do this all the time.
To transpose that to learning tunes in our busy lives, I just hum along or sing along as I listen to new tunes. This will get the tune inside your head. You will never really learn a tune that isn't inside your head first.
>>You hear this all time and it's very frustrating. For example, people playing the Salamanca "fg afdg bgeg" instead of how is should go, "fg afde gbeg"<<
? How it 'should go'? you mean the version/setting you have....Surely it all depends on who you learn the tune from? If you hear Dow play it or Jeremy for that matter, and pick it up by ear, its going to be' wrong' in the 'gospel according to llig', who is 'right' of course! Ahem...
Anyhow I learnt that tune 20+ yrs ago, by ear , and it 'should' go fg|a/g/fdg b/a/geg|
Michael Gallagher has it fg afdg bgeg" so does Liam Walshe ,Bobby Casey,Johny Doherty, though the rest of his setting is very different. Are we all wrong and llig right? No of course not, they are simply different settings.
It annoys me when people play The Islay Ranter's Reel wrong. I would agree that there are different settings to old tunes and there might not always be a definitive right or wrong but when you have a tune that is fairly young and whole lines of it are wrong then it is really taking the p*ss a bit.
Ionannas - are you sure about those settings of yours? I am not saying you are wrong. I don't have the recordings. I am just asking if you are certain you have heard Michael Gallagher, Liam Walsh, Bobby Casey and Johnny Doherty right.
The word "version" is more often than not used as a poncy excuse for learning a tune wrong. What's wrong with the word wrong anyway? If more people were able to hold their hands up and say, "yes, I think I have tune tune wrong, how should it go?" rather than the pretence of "my version goes like this", then all the music would be better.
I don't know if this is a proper musical technique or not, and what's more I don't care, but lately when I'm learning a new tune I start by hearing it first, then using sheet as a general guide to the notes, then once I have the notes roughly memorized I practice with my eyes closed. This does two things, it forces me not to look at my fingers, which always throws me off, and puts me in a place where my eyes are removed from the equation and I hear the music better. Perhaps this is something akin to the concept of the blind person who is able hear better through compensation. Whatever the explanation, it does help me to "hear" the music and the notes better, which I'm sure can help one's ear. Besides, I just don't know how anyone can concentrate on sounds when they're staring at their fingers anyway. Then again, I've never been very good at multi-tasking.
I am not about to criticise you for using the dots because I do too, at least in part, but it is important to remember that the dots you have may not be what is being played by the musician. This is probably particularly the case on this website where the postings are how people think the tunes go. Effectively what you could be doing is compounding the error.
I would suggest you listen to the tune until you can sing it in your head, until you know the twists and turns and then start to learn it on the instrument. Then, if you do refer to the dots you will be able to spot when the dots are wrong.
I have had great success with American old-time music playing in a friendly jam. For some reason, I can pick those tunes up on the fly really easily.
I start out with just a few notes of the tune, maybe every other one, then start to fill in the tune with more and more of the notes. I can get most of the notes by the time they switch to the next tune.
Irish music isn't the same, though, but for some reason being able to do this for old-time has developed my ears and now I can do this more and more on Irish tunes. Irish tunes are really "notey" and old-time isn't, so maybe it's just like taking baby steps.
So you might try using a different genre to develop your ears.
Thanks for all of your help. It appears I have stumbled upon a further discussion about what makes a 'wrong' tune.
I don't believe different versions are 'wrong'. That just part of the oral or aural tradition!
For example: Altan play a Donegal style version of Drowsy Maggie. This is very different to the 'standard' setting of the tune. Anyone gonna tell Ms. Ni Mhaonaigh and co. that they are playing the tune 'wrong'? I doubt it.
Maybe but I bet the members of Altan know the standard setting. There is also a difference between a specific, recognised version of a tune as played in a certain geographic location or as played by some illustrious musician or time gone by (or M McGoldrick) and the "version" scraped away at by Joe Soap in the session in the Rusty Anchor developed through mishearing how it is meant to go.
NCFA, yep, Its a pretty distinctive riff. You dont have their recordings?!!
Methinks that should be remedied, especially as some are free online!
Tommy Reck and Kieran Hanrahan both have it as llig near enough . So who is wrong , who is right? Sorry, no offence meant but I think its a ridiculous argument to say one is wrong and one right. Who wrote it? even if the 'composer' has it one way, doesnt mean his way is 'right' this flexibility is part of the genre.
Variation is the heart and soul of trad, to suggest that one is right and one wrong is to miss a fundamental tenet of the music.
Liam Rowesome has it fg afdg bgeg" So does Patrick Kelly.
How would anyone go about deciding who plays it right and who wrong? Would llig ever consider the possibility that he has it wrong? Is it a majority thing? Sorry but I cant really take this seriously.
Well, I think I mentioned I start by hearing the tune first. The notes are just a useful guide, kind of like using wikipedia, the information is probably close, but don't count on the accuracy. I have a decent feel for modes, but could never give you an expert explanation of them, the dots help me find the mode. Closing my eyes when practicing just forces me to use my musical memory of the tune rather than just muscle memory and staring at my fingers to get it right. It's working for me so far. I'm not exactly a novice musician, I just new to sessions. I'm sure my method of learning new tunes will evolve as I play more sessions.
Which is the standard setting NCFA? Standard where? which session, which pub, which region? Is there a standard 'euro trad' setting we must all conform to before we can play the tune right? Who decides which is the accepted standard version/setting? The grand functionary, dignitary of trad?
"Sing the tune" (random_notes). But for me I have found that diving in early on with the 'hear a phrase - sing or play the phrase' moves things along much faster. As in those Shannon Heaton 'tutorials'. I can listen to a tune hundred times then pick up the flute and find I have the rhythm, phrasing and contour in my head but a few wrong notes.
"Which is the standard setting NCFA? Standard where? which session, which pub, which region? Is there a standard 'euro trad' setting we must all conform to before we can play the tune right? Who decides which is the accepted standard version/setting? The grand functionary, dignitary of trad? "
Written like someone who can quote off a hundred illustrious players' versions but does not ultimately understand traditional music. It is a crying shame really.
I will type slowly. Hopefully you can keep up.
By its very nature the standard setting is the one that most folk play. The point is that nobody "decides" what the standard setting is unless you consider it to be the band who polularised a particular tune eg The Bothy Band.
There are commonly played settings of tunes. There are many variations on these common settings that different people will play. Some of these variations are legitimate alternate versions. Others are just plain wrong.
I don't know how to explain what makes a version right or wrong. You just know it when you hear it. There is a real danger in statements like:
"I don't believe different versions are 'wrong'. That just part of the oral or aural tradition!" (richrua)
because it effectively is giving up on the idea of quality control in your playing. What is the point of sitting down and consciously trying to learn how another player plays a tune, whether that be face to face or from a recording if you can just play a very rough approximation and proclaim it as just a different version?
As far as the Salamanca goes I currently have 2 versions on my iTunes that I can find (although possibly more on cd) - Paddy Glackin & Paddy Keenan (Doublin') and the Across the Water album. Is that good enough for you Ionannas?
I am aware that you can get a lot of the old recordings for free online. I could have also got them for free from TheSilverSpear if I wanted. I am in no rush however. Does that make me a bad person?
NCFA, so which is the right setting then?
So let me get this right, your saying that if I learn , note for note, Bobby casey's setting, Im still playing it wrong? or If I learn Kieran Hanrahans setting, Im playing it wrong? you mean to say either Bobby Casey, or Kieran Hanrahan are playing it wrong?
Who are you to proclaim one setting right and one wrong? Are you the grand functionary/dignitary of trad?
The reason''You just know it when you hear it.'' is because you have heard one setting more and its the familiar way you have the tune, or perhaps because you personally like one setting more. But to say one is right, one wrong, one player right, one player wrong? Hmm, How long have you been playing trad?
Tommy peoples has it ''fg afdg bgeg" Is he wrong? Obviously not, yet llig reckons he's not playing it as it should be played. Wrong and right settings eh? whos to judge? You?They are not wrong and right settings just different.
I play the version I like, and I don't care if somebody else thinks it's wrong. I've run into this with tunes like Jenny's Chickens, Garrett Barry's jig and yes, the Salamanca. However, as Llig pointed out to me once before, the more important thing is if somebody kicks off a version different from yours - play their version - don't steamroll yours over the top of it making a mess of the whole thing. Listen and adapt.
I don't know what tommy peoples' version you're thinking about, but he plays it "fg afde gbeg" on Bothy Band 1975.
There are only three scenarios that can account for this fact:
1. He always played it this way because it is the correct way.
2. He once played it ''fg afdg bgeg" but he said to Matt, "You know mate, I think I have this tune a bit wrong, how does it go?"
3. He had it wrong and when he heard Matt play it "fg afde gbeg" he, without comment, adjusted to the correct version ... for no other reason than it was much much better.
(and because "fg afde gbeg" is not only the correct way, but more importantly, the best way, anyone who learned the tune ''fg afdg bgeg" after 1975 was either a deaf idiot, or had no taste.)
LOL, 1977 High part of the road, so now not only is Tommy peoples a deaf idiot /has no taste according to llig, but Bobby Casey and Johnny Doherty play the tune wrong! Do they they have no taste either?
Dig yourself deeper why dont you..... ,I see O'Neills got it wrong too...
1976. A year after the Bothy Band. I can't explain why he'd play an inferior version. Maybe he just thought what's the point of doing the tune the same, so he had to play it different? I dunno. It's a shame though. Either way, I don't think he's an idiot. He didn't learn the tune after 1975 and at least he got it right the first time round.
And of course, it won't be the first time O'Neills got a tune wrong.
And I get tunes wrong too. Most people do at some point or other. I think it's important to make the distinction between getting a tune wrong and having a "version". It's humbling.
If you look over my comments you will see that I never said that Bobby Casey played the tune wrong. Neither did I say that Tommy Peoples or Johnny Doherty played the tune wrong. I didn't make any pronouncements on the way that tune should actually go. In fact, until I got home tonight and switched on iTunes, I couldn't think which tune you were talking about. The only tune I made any judgement calls on is The Islay Ranters Reel by Charlie McKerron. As far as I can figure out most people play that tune wrong!
Personally I agree with leoj's short statement. A decent player can breathe life into any setting and conversely a poor player can destroy the best of settings. You might learn the basic structure, note for note, that Bobby Casey played. It doesn't mean you are going to suddenly sound like Bobby Casey.
As far as how long I have been playing I don't really see the relevance. I have played with musicians who have only been playing for a couple of years or so who are brilliant and also those who have been playing for over 30 years who are utter scheidt. Having said that I started playing guitar in primary school but did not start on accompaniment until maybe about 2000 or 2001. I reckon I started on the whistle in about 2002 although I always had one growing up. In don't consider myself to be a particularly good whistle player however. I don't play it enough.
I have learned most of my music from, much to my advantage, getting to play in sessions over the years with some incredible musicians, both Scottish and Irish in style. I now get to play every week with some of the best Irish musicians in Glasgow. In fact I would say some of the best Irish musicians you will find anywhere in the World, certainly as a collective group. I have learned a lot from them and I am very grateful.
I don't think that owning a large collection of old archive albums instantly makes you a traditional musician. Obsessing about the individual note settings of Bobby Casey or Kieran Hanrahan is a distraction from what you should be doing with those recordings, and that is primarily studying the style they play. The style, the lift, the "Nyah" (whatever the f*** that is!) is far more important than whether Bobby chose to play a B or a G on any particular day.
You will have to forgive my tardiness in responding. I was away tonight watching the Young Traditional Musician of the Year tour in Birnam followed by a few tunes. What amazing music and what amazing musicians.
Inferior. hmm, no. Personally I choose a setting solely on what feels/sounds right to me. Now why does a version sound good ? I dont know... I knows what I likes and thats what I like
Its probably formative listening that subconsciously influences our choice in how we play a tune. I dont know where I got the four part setting of Rakish Paddy, but Im listening to Bobby Casey play it right now, such an Inspiring and amazing fiddler.
I know that Id been playing trad for years before I even heard of the bothy band,[ surprising I know] but their settings have still been very influential for me. Im sure because back in the early 80's there wasn't much of a selection to choose from that I could access. I learnt all my early stuff from friends, dont know where they got them? Bothy band Albums perhaps
OK, so it appears that not everyone plays the tune the same way or the same way each time. The usual advice on this site is to listen to a tune lots of times and only try to play it when we can sing it. This is good preparation for recognising that what others are playing is not quite the same.
Has anyone any suggestions for developing the skills to cope with that situation. Practice ? Practice how ?
What you could do perhaps, with your computer teknology would be take a phrase from a tune you want to learn , just one, and loop it. Only you can tell what speed is a challenge, but take it at a speed that IS a challenge, but not so much of a challenge that you fall.
Try lilting along with the phrase, once you can sing it, you can pretty much play it.
Also in my mind I know where the sounds I want live on the fiddle, If I think of a phrase I can pretty much 'visualise' my fingers making that phrase, only its not visual.. My fingers actually make the movements.
So try taking a tune you have already and singing it in your head while associating the finger movements of your instrument, but not holding the instrument. Again perhaps take small chunks, short phrases.
Take typical riffs, say a triplet run up to 'd', or a 'd to f ' riff, sing and visualise playing it, then when you recognise this chunk, its easy to identify and play it when you hear it in a tune.
As your repertoire increases you will have a larger bunch of typical riffs that you can identify when you hear them, its not about individual notes, but about short phrases.
Once you have these short phrases in mind and fingers, then you eventually can pick up longer phrases that are perhaps built on 2 or more short bits.
Basically you need to associate the sounds you hear directly to the finger movement on the instrument.
Take it in small stages. a question and answer type thing might be helpfull, with the help of a friend or computer?someone/thing plays a riff and you have to copy it after them. nice and simple at first.
This is how I learnt to play many tunes, with someone sat playing the tune phrase by phrase. As an exercise though you dont have to actually learn a tune , but just practice picking up phrases, with no need to remember them. Ideally of course you want someone to sit with you and show/teach you tunes phrase by phrase. But these exercises will help you learn from someone a bit quicker anyhow.
Now memorising is another subject altogether!!!
"You hear this all time and it's very frustrating. For example, people playing the Salamanca "fg afdg bgeg" instead of how is should go, "fg afde gbeg" "
Another example is the Banshee, commonly played G2 GD EDEG (1st bar), but as Llig correctly points out:
"instead of the second e in the first bar,
go down to the b on your g string.
that's the tune"
Of course llig the problem of people playing things different is caused by learning by ear. It all depends on who you learn it from. Now if you were to learn from the dots ..... But then of course you would get no variation at all. Just like to point out that in 50 Irish tunes arranged and published by Tommy Peoples 1986 he plays the Salamanca "f afda bgeg" yet again a difference.
The Banshee, I never knew what that tune was called. Well I have it roughly as Jeremy posted it, certainly with no Low B. Where does th low B setting come from?
I still find this right/wrong argument ludicrous, The low B setting for example could not be played by a whistle , flute, or pipes. The tune strikes me as a typical Pipe Reel as such I would say that the low B is a variation on the tune, not a particularly good one but just as valid as any other setting.
I think there should be a definitive book of tune settings that are considered correct and anyone who deviates from these settings should be excommunicated from the Herd, Consigned to the Wilderness to forever repent their sins
Thanks Ionannas. I did get it first time. I was hoping someone had some different ideas but it appears that apart from llig's point about the 'riffs' they agree with you and can't add anything
Beginning to looking as if I've strayed onto another fiddle thread.
In the past on this site plenty of other people have made the point about note sequences that crop up commonly in tunes being a useful feature when learning. Llig's post above is the first time I can recall anyone pointing out the down side of it. It was a main plank in anti 'scales and arpeggios' argument
So is it better to train ones ear on things that are not chunks of trad tunes ?
Not necessarily so David, It all depends on you and what you find easy, take a really simple tune that you dont know, and try phrases of that. I learnt bar by bar from a teacher but I had years of picking up simple bass riffs before that. We all get this stuff at our own pace, no point in trying to rush it or take shortcuts.
Yes, there are note sequences that crop up commonly in tunes. But it's a mistake to concentrate on these because it will do the opposite of training your ear. It's more accurate to sat that similar sequences of notes crop up commonly in tunes, and that it's the slight differences in these sequences that make make or break tunes. And being able to hear these slight differences for what they are is the measure of a good ear.
If you want to train your self to do anything, then practice it.
<<If you want to train your self to do anything, then practice it.>>
This is true, up to a point. For example, I teach stick fighting, now yes we could just fight with sticks, but I can assure you thats not the traditional way we train. Yes we do fight with sticks, but Injuries are frequent even with padded sticks masks and protection. Now there is no substitute for getting out there are getting stuck in, as in learning tunes. But in addition to this we do a lot of subsidiary training drills. We learn various techniques in isolation and in combinations, footwork and combined footwork patterns, we train ground fighting, we use feet hands, elbows, head, knees, trapping. We do various partner and solo drills, we train left hand and right, combinations of stick and dagger, all sorts of stuff, we train snap cuts, slashes, thrusts etc etc etc.
We do not just fight, there are hundreds of supplementary exercises which are essential background training for success on the field. There are different levels of accomplishment. I dont just fight my students, that would be ridiculous, we have a go al-right but I consistently display reserve and control until they are able to handle what I throw at them. whereupon I up the level a bit. And I learn from and get beat by my students, thats ok. One was a 16stone rugby player 15-20 yrs my junior. A hard man to stop. Im happy if I can hold my own with him!
Anyone can get lucky and the more technical skill we can develop to support our fighting skills the better.
So back to music, there are numerous exercises and technical drills we can use to facilitate our personal developement.
Think outside the box.
Anyone is welcome to come and train with us, or to play a few tunes, both go on pretty much every day..
Playing and listening to music has nothing whatsoever to do with fighting people with sticks.
Music is not combat. It's not a drill. You don't need protection. It's not adversarial. You are not trying to "hold your own". It's not aggressive. It's not defensive. It's not a martial art. It's not sport.
Ionnass, You may well know a great deal about fighting. You may well be quite good at fighting. I certainly would be a little afraid. But it's clear that you do not know what music is. At its most fundamental level, you have no comprehension of what music is. At best, you think it mere exercise.
It is amazing Ionannas. You do so many things and are such a deep and interesting individual it is a wonder you have any time left to eat, sleep or breathe!
Of course, he'll retort that I (and everyone else who thinks he's bonkers) don't know what music is. And round and round it will go again. (maybe Bogman will get banned with me this time?)
A couple of things that llig has said here that deserve reiteration:
>> "Your brain will always follow the path of least resistance. Brains are like that."
So true. My ability to pick up tunes by ear has increased dramatically over the last 6 or 7 years, but part of that ability is the ability to fill in the blanks with meaningful sounding phrases. But when I do that, it's often wrong, because I end up filling a tune with fluff, or miss some interesting twists and turns.
>> "It's more accurate to say that similar sequences of notes crop up commonly in tunes, and that it's the slight differences in these sequences that make make or break tunes. And being able to hear these slight differences for what they are is the measure of a good ear."
Exactly. At this point, my ear is good at picking up a general contour of a tune. But I know a few people whose listening abilities greatly surpass my own, and what makes them different is their ability to hear the "interesting" parts properly. So they don't fluff the tune with random notes from the mode, they accurately hear and reproduce the twists that give the tune its character.
That's a skill to work on - by practicing it specifically. NOT by practicing scales, arpeggios, or "common phrases", because that is just training you to be able to fluff, not really listen.
I'd just like to say that "standard" varies by which session you're at, and often which night you're there. However, the standard that should not vary is the gracious accommodation that happens when two actively listening players meld their versions of a tune on the fly to make a greater whole.
It's a pity that doesn't happen around these parts with words more often.
Another skill that is related, but maybe a step beyond the ability to pick up a tune by ear, is the ability to internalize the contour of a tune, and then be mold it into something similar as part of your expression of it. And the "interesting" twists of the tune that give it character are prime candidates for being expressed in different ways.
The idea of their being some "right setting" for a tune is somewhat fuzzy. Listening to a recording is not necessarily a way to get any kind of "definitive" setting, because the recording is just a snapshot of time. It was the way the person played the tune that day (as evidenced by the discussion of the many different ways that Tommy Peoples has been recorded playing the Salamanca...). And more often than not, you will hear an artist play a particular phrase numerous different ways within a single recording. So which do you consider the "definitive" one? The first time through?
For me, I like to have a "base version" of a melody that I learn, and then I can expand upon that. To be able to do variation, you have to be varying it *from* something more static. That "base version" is usually tied to my source for the tune, either another player, a recording, or occasionally (*gasp*) the dots or ABC from some source (usually a friend, who will send me their setting of a tune via ABC).
FWIW, my "base version" of the B part of the Salamanca is basically this one: fg afde gbeg...
Rev: “My ability to pick up tunes by ear has increased dramatically over the last 6 or 7 years, but part of that ability is the ability to fill in the blanks with meaningful sounding phrases. But when I do that, it's often wrong, because I end up filling a tune with fluff, or miss some interesting twists and turns.”
An old friend of mine (we go back over forty years) has a habit of filling in tunes like that, only he never seems to realize, or care, that he got it wrong. I tried a couple of times to gently confront him about it, but his response was that those details really didn’t matter. It matters to me when somebody casually rubs off the most delightful little crinkles of a great tune tunes with him. We’re still friends, but I eventually gave up trying to play tunes that I care about with him.
"My ability to pick up tunes by ear has increased dramatically over the last 6 or 7 years ...[large deletion] .... At this point, my ear is good at picking up a general contour of a tune." (Reverend)
Huh, well thats cut from one of the most constructive posts so far - but I feel the need to take a quick look at the actuarial tables.
on the subject of ear training though, if you make it a point to pick out melodies by ear every day, you do get better at it
I used to try and play along with the advertising jingles on the TV back when I was in music school. It was an easy way to get random, simple melodies, back in the days before the internet
>> "when somebody casually rubs off the most delightful little crinkles of a great tune"
Right. Don't get me wrong, I dislike that too, and I try to recognize when I might be doing that, so that I can focus on trying to get those sections right...
"It's more accurate to [say] that similar sequences of notes crop up commonly in tunes, and that it's the slight differences in these sequences that make make or break tunes. And being able to hear these slight differences for what they are is the measure of a good ear."
I myself am always amazed at the fact that, even when some people play around with the tune, sometimes mutating it to a great extent, you can still recognize what tune you are working from. On the other hand, some people, when they only stray a little from a particular version, lose its essence. To me, the tune does not reside in getting every little bit exactly the same. I don't know which notes or which phrases are most important, I just know it when I hear it.
There is something to be said for starting into the tradition on tinwhistle. It's a simple diatonic instrument. & what, if anything, is more fun than half-holing?
Well before it does. AlBrown I am reasurred that you are amazed about that because its something that I am always seeking an explanation for and never quite finding. Its why the dots are not the 'real' skeleton and I am usually unconvinced when people put it down to chord sequences - even after I go to you bio to understand what they are on about.
david_h, I am sure that there are people who understand the ins and outs of musical theory that could explain it all--myself, with all the studying I have done to learn about the music, there are still things that I know sound right, but don't understand exactly why.
Hmm I find fingering an F to be a nightmare. Not sure why. On the other hand the odd time I have had to play an Eb/D# I have not found it to be too bad. Maybe it is just something about the particular tune.
<<If you want to train your self to do anything, then practice it.>> Ok, My example was misunderstood, try these;
Brain surgery, If you want to become a brain surgeon, operate on peoples brains! Hmmm...
Or you want to play the Highland pipes; so pick them up and play them! .....
Two examples that show clearly that if you want to learn to do something, you dont just practice doing it. You develop skills separately that in time will help you attain the ability you aim for.
and?...neither is stick fighting, but they all have some things in common, they require supplementary exercises before actually carrying out the task in full.
developing your ears
developing your ears
No, not growing great big ears!
I wonder has anybody found any useful, free tools on tinternet to aid the development of musical ear?
I would like to speed up my ability to pick up tunes by ear. I can do it, much to my delight, but only at a painfully slow pace.
Thanks!
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by richrua
Re: developing your ears
I don't think there's any magic solution. If you have a lot of
natural talent, you'll pick them up fast. If you're more towards
the average, it takes more repetition. Mozart - so the legend goes
- could hear a piece played on the piano once and play it
back. We're not talking about simple Irish tunes either.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by Hup
Re: developing your ears
Drat thought this was a fashion item finding the correct earrings to wear to a session is always difficult.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: developing your ears
You have no trouble with that. Your earrings are always fantastic, Dave.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: developing your ears
Afraid, as Hup says, it is just practice.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: developing your ears
The knack is to really listen. You have to clear your mind of what your mind may assume you are hearing. Human brains have amazing abilities at filling in gaps in perception.
Try that illusion with the two of spades. Hold it up and look at it horizontally with one eye and stare at one of the black spades. The other one disappears because its image falls on where your optic nerve at the back of the eye is. But rather than you seeing nothing, your brain fills the space in with a conglomeration of the surroundings.
The same thing happens with tunes. If an unusual run happens that your brain does not hear correctly, it fills in the gaps. Rather than you hearing nothing, it invents something to go in its place.
Listen really really hard. Concentrate. Don't allow yourself to imagine that you heard it correctly.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: developing your ears
Very good advice Michael. There is a lot in what you say. Not as simple as it sounds!!
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by CDNMoose
Re: developing your ears
That slow pace is grand, over time you just get better at it, as long as you keep trying.
What you could do perhaps, with your computer teknology would be take a phrase from a tune you want to learn , just one, and loop it. Only you can tell what speed is a challenge, but take it at a speed that IS a challenge, but not so much of a challenge that you fall.
Try lilting along with the phrase, once you can sing it, you can pretty much play it.
Also in my mind I know where the sounds I want live on the fiddle, If I think of a phrase I can pretty much 'visualise' my fingers making that phrase, only its not visual.. My fingers actually make the movements.
So try taking a tune you have already and singing it in your head while associating the finger movements of your instrument, but not holding the instrument. Again perhaps take small chunks, short phrases.
Take typical riffs, say a triplet run up to 'd', or a 'd to f ' riff, sing and visualise playing it, then when you recognise this chunk, its easy to identify and play it when you hear it in a tune.
As your repertoire increases you will have a larger bunch of typical riffs that you can identify when you hear them, its not about individual notes, but about short phrases.
Once you have these short phrases in mind and fingers, then you eventually can pick up longer phrases that are perhaps built on 2 or more short bits.
Basically you need to associate the sounds you hear directly to the finger movement on the instrument.
Take it in small stages. a question and answer type thing might be helpfull, with the help of a friend or computer?someone/thing plays a riff and you have to copy it after them. nice and simple at first.
This is how I learnt to play many tunes, with someone sat playing the tune phrase by phrase. As an exercise though you dont have to actually learn a tune , but just practice picking up phrases, with no need to remember them. Ideally of course you want someone to sit with you and show/teach you tunes phrase by phrase. But these exercises will help you learn from someone a bit quicker anyhow.
Now memorising is another subject altogether!!!
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: developing your ears
http://www.good-ear.com/servlet/EarTrainer
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by Henk Bos
Re: developing your ears
Learning little bits of runs and things away from actual tunes so that you have pre-repaired building blocks would be precisely the way to train your mind to assume you know how a tune goes, when you don't. Your brain will put your blocks together rather than really listen because it's easier that way. Your brain will always follow the path of least resistance. Brains are like that.
You hear this all time and it's very frustrating. For example, people playing the Salamanca "fg afdg bgeg" instead of how is should go, "fg afde gbeg"
Much much better to have no preconceptions of how you might think a particular run might go. Listen a fresh every time.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: developing your ears
Maybe not be what you have in mind, but I'm finding working through these useful for improving my ear.
http://www.mattandshannonheaton.com/totm.html
and then trying to do the same with tunes I am learning.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by David50
Re: developing your ears
With the kids in my school, especially the jazz band (where we avoid notation as much as possible) I make them sing everything. During rehearsal, I'll sing the clarinet part, for example, then make the clarinets sing it back, then they play it. We do this all the time.
To transpose that to learning tunes in our busy lives, I just hum along or sing along as I listen to new tunes. This will get the tune inside your head. You will never really learn a tune that isn't inside your head first.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: developing your ears
>>You hear this all time and it's very frustrating. For example, people playing the Salamanca "fg afdg bgeg" instead of how is should go, "fg afde gbeg"<<
? How it 'should go'? you mean the version/setting you have....Surely it all depends on who you learn the tune from? If you hear Dow play it or Jeremy for that matter, and pick it up by ear, its going to be' wrong' in the 'gospel according to llig', who is 'right' of course! Ahem...
Anyhow I learnt that tune 20+ yrs ago, by ear , and it 'should' go fg|a/g/fdg b/a/geg|
Michael Gallagher has it fg afdg bgeg" so does Liam Walshe ,Bobby Casey,Johny Doherty, though the rest of his setting is very different. Are we all wrong and llig right? No of course not, they are simply different settings.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: developing your ears
It annoys me when people play The Islay Ranter's Reel wrong. I would agree that there are different settings to old tunes and there might not always be a definitive right or wrong but when you have a tune that is fairly young and whole lines of it are wrong then it is really taking the p*ss a bit.
Ionannas - are you sure about those settings of yours? I am not saying you are wrong. I don't have the recordings. I am just asking if you are certain you have heard Michael Gallagher, Liam Walsh, Bobby Casey and Johnny Doherty right.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: developing your ears
The word "version" is more often than not used as a poncy excuse for learning a tune wrong. What's wrong with the word wrong anyway? If more people were able to hold their hands up and say, "yes, I think I have tune tune wrong, how should it go?" rather than the pretence of "my version goes like this", then all the music would be better.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: developing your ears
I don't know if this is a proper musical technique or not, and what's more I don't care, but lately when I'm learning a new tune I start by hearing it first, then using sheet as a general guide to the notes, then once I have the notes roughly memorized I practice with my eyes closed. This does two things, it forces me not to look at my fingers, which always throws me off, and puts me in a place where my eyes are removed from the equation and I hear the music better. Perhaps this is something akin to the concept of the blind person who is able hear better through compensation. Whatever the explanation, it does help me to "hear" the music and the notes better, which I'm sure can help one's ear. Besides, I just don't know how anyone can concentrate on sounds when they're staring at their fingers anyway. Then again, I've never been very good at multi-tasking.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: developing your ears
I am not about to criticise you for using the dots because I do too, at least in part, but it is important to remember that the dots you have may not be what is being played by the musician. This is probably particularly the case on this website where the postings are how people think the tunes go. Effectively what you could be doing is compounding the error.
I would suggest you listen to the tune until you can sing it in your head, until you know the twists and turns and then start to learn it on the instrument. Then, if you do refer to the dots you will be able to spot when the dots are wrong.
Now if only I can follow my own advice!
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: developing your ears
If closing your eyes helps though then go for it. It should certainly remove external distractions thus helping you listen better.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: developing your ears
That's daft, how do you know the "sheet" isn't wrong?
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: developing your ears
I have had great success with American old-time music playing in a friendly jam. For some reason, I can pick those tunes up on the fly really easily.
I start out with just a few notes of the tune, maybe every other one, then start to fill in the tune with more and more of the notes. I can get most of the notes by the time they switch to the next tune.
Irish music isn't the same, though, but for some reason being able to do this for old-time has developed my ears and now I can do this more and more on Irish tunes. Irish tunes are really "notey" and old-time isn't, so maybe it's just like taking baby steps.
So you might try using a different genre to develop your ears.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by sbhikes
Re: developing your ears
sing the tune
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: developing your ears
Thanks for all of your help. It appears I have stumbled upon a further discussion about what makes a 'wrong' tune.
I don't believe different versions are 'wrong'. That just part of the oral or aural tradition!
For example: Altan play a Donegal style version of Drowsy Maggie. This is very different to the 'standard' setting of the tune. Anyone gonna tell Ms. Ni Mhaonaigh and co. that they are playing the tune 'wrong'? I doubt it.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by richrua
Re: developing your ears
Maybe but I bet the members of Altan know the standard setting. There is also a difference between a specific, recognised version of a tune as played in a certain geographic location or as played by some illustrious musician or time gone by (or M McGoldrick) and the "version" scraped away at by Joe Soap in the session in the Rusty Anchor developed through mishearing how it is meant to go.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: developing your ears
After all, how do you think "standard" versions of tunes developed in the first place?
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: developing your ears
NCFA, yep, Its a pretty distinctive riff. You dont have their recordings?!!
Methinks that should be remedied, especially as some are free online!
Tommy Reck and Kieran Hanrahan both have it as llig near enough . So who is wrong , who is right? Sorry, no offence meant but I think its a ridiculous argument to say one is wrong and one right. Who wrote it? even if the 'composer' has it one way, doesnt mean his way is 'right' this flexibility is part of the genre.
Variation is the heart and soul of trad, to suggest that one is right and one wrong is to miss a fundamental tenet of the music.
Liam Rowesome has it fg afdg bgeg" So does Patrick Kelly.
How would anyone go about deciding who plays it right and who wrong? Would llig ever consider the possibility that he has it wrong? Is it a majority thing? Sorry but I cant really take this seriously.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: developing your ears
Well, I think I mentioned I start by hearing the tune first. The notes are just a useful guide, kind of like using wikipedia, the information is probably close, but don't count on the accuracy. I have a decent feel for modes, but could never give you an expert explanation of them, the dots help me find the mode. Closing my eyes when practicing just forces me to use my musical memory of the tune rather than just muscle memory and staring at my fingers to get it right. It's working for me so far. I'm not exactly a novice musician, I just new to sessions. I'm sure my method of learning new tunes will evolve as I play more sessions.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: developing your ears
Which is the standard setting NCFA? Standard where? which session, which pub, which region? Is there a standard 'euro trad' setting we must all conform to before we can play the tune right?
Who decides which is the accepted standard version/setting? The grand functionary, dignitary of trad?
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: developing your ears
"Sing the tune" (random_notes). But for me I have found that diving in early on with the 'hear a phrase - sing or play the phrase' moves things along much faster. As in those Shannon Heaton 'tutorials'. I can listen to a tune hundred times then pick up the flute and find I have the rhythm, phrasing and contour in my head but a few wrong notes.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by David50
Re: developing your ears
"Which is the standard setting NCFA? Standard where? which session, which pub, which region? Is there a standard 'euro trad' setting we must all conform to before we can play the tune right?
Who decides which is the accepted standard version/setting? The grand functionary, dignitary of trad? 
"
Written like someone who can quote off a hundred illustrious players' versions but does not ultimately understand traditional music. It is a crying shame really.
I will type slowly. Hopefully you can keep up.
By its very nature the standard setting is the one that most folk play. The point is that nobody "decides" what the standard setting is unless you consider it to be the band who polularised a particular tune eg The Bothy Band.
There are commonly played settings of tunes. There are many variations on these common settings that different people will play. Some of these variations are legitimate alternate versions. Others are just plain wrong.
I don't know how to explain what makes a version right or wrong. You just know it when you hear it. There is a real danger in statements like:
"I don't believe different versions are 'wrong'. That just part of the oral or aural tradition!" (richrua)
because it effectively is giving up on the idea of quality control in your playing. What is the point of sitting down and consciously trying to learn how another player plays a tune, whether that be face to face or from a recording if you can just play a very rough approximation and proclaim it as just a different version?
As far as the Salamanca goes I currently have 2 versions on my iTunes that I can find (although possibly more on cd) - Paddy Glackin & Paddy Keenan (Doublin') and the Across the Water album. Is that good enough for you Ionannas?
I am aware that you can get a lot of the old recordings for free online. I could have also got them for free from TheSilverSpear if I wanted. I am in no rush however. Does that make me a bad person?
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: developing your ears
NCFA, so which is the right setting then?
So let me get this right, your saying that if I learn , note for note, Bobby casey's setting, Im still playing it wrong? or If I learn Kieran Hanrahans setting, Im playing it wrong? you mean to say either Bobby Casey, or Kieran Hanrahan are playing it wrong?
Who are you to proclaim one setting right and one wrong? Are you the grand functionary/dignitary of trad?
The reason''You just know it when you hear it.'' is because you have heard one setting more and its the familiar way you have the tune, or perhaps because you personally like one setting more. But to say one is right, one wrong, one player right, one player wrong? Hmm, How long have you been playing trad?
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: developing your ears
By the sounds of him a hell of a lot longer than you.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by bogman
Re: developing your ears
Tommy peoples has it ''fg afdg bgeg" Is he wrong? Obviously not, yet llig reckons he's not playing it as it should be played. Wrong and right settings eh? whos to judge? You?They are not wrong and right settings just different.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: developing your ears
I play the version I like, and I don't care if somebody else thinks it's wrong. I've run into this with tunes like Jenny's Chickens, Garrett Barry's jig and yes, the Salamanca. However, as Llig pointed out to me once before, the more important thing is if somebody kicks off a version different from yours - play their version - don't steamroll yours over the top of it making a mess of the whole thing. Listen and adapt.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: developing your ears
The music resides in the player not in the "setting" or "version" or whatever. A good player can breathe life into any setting.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by leoj
Re: developing your ears
Is Tommy Peoples version wrong? No, but he is able to improvize depending on with whom who he is playing.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by Ben Steen
keep whom, edit out who
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: developing your ears
I don't know what tommy peoples' version you're thinking about, but he plays it "fg afde gbeg" on Bothy Band 1975.
There are only three scenarios that can account for this fact:
1. He always played it this way because it is the correct way.
2. He once played it ''fg afdg bgeg" but he said to Matt, "You know mate, I think I have this tune a bit wrong, how does it go?"
3. He had it wrong and when he heard Matt play it "fg afde gbeg" he, without comment, adjusted to the correct version ... for no other reason than it was much much better.
(and because "fg afde gbeg" is not only the correct way, but more importantly, the best way, anyone who learned the tune ''fg afdg bgeg" after 1975 was either a deaf idiot, or had no taste.)
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by llig leahcim
wasn't even paying attention. "Salamanca" is a grand reel.
I'll make it a point to listen to a few versions.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: developing your ears
LOL, 1977 High part of the road, so now not only is Tommy peoples a deaf idiot /has no taste according to llig, but Bobby Casey and Johnny Doherty play the tune wrong! Do they they have no taste either?
,I see O'Neills got it wrong too...
Dig yourself deeper why dont you.....
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Ionannas, is this a contest for you?
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: developing your ears
1976. A year after the Bothy Band. I can't explain why he'd play an inferior version. Maybe he just thought what's the point of doing the tune the same, so he had to play it different? I dunno. It's a shame though. Either way, I don't think he's an idiot. He didn't learn the tune after 1975 and at least he got it right the first time round.
And of course, it won't be the first time O'Neills got a tune wrong.
And I get tunes wrong too. Most people do at some point or other. I think it's important to make the distinction between getting a tune wrong and having a "version". It's humbling.
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: developing your ears
So you still maintain that Bobby Casey plays an incorrect setting? Well we shall have to disagree on that one.
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: developing your ears
How about "inferior" then? Do you choose a "version" becuase of who plays it? Or do you choose a version because you think it's better?
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: developing your ears
If you look over my comments you will see that I never said that Bobby Casey played the tune wrong. Neither did I say that Tommy Peoples or Johnny Doherty played the tune wrong. I didn't make any pronouncements on the way that tune should actually go. In fact, until I got home tonight and switched on iTunes, I couldn't think which tune you were talking about. The only tune I made any judgement calls on is The Islay Ranters Reel by Charlie McKerron. As far as I can figure out most people play that tune wrong!
Personally I agree with leoj's short statement. A decent player can breathe life into any setting and conversely a poor player can destroy the best of settings. You might learn the basic structure, note for note, that Bobby Casey played. It doesn't mean you are going to suddenly sound like Bobby Casey.
As far as how long I have been playing I don't really see the relevance. I have played with musicians who have only been playing for a couple of years or so who are brilliant and also those who have been playing for over 30 years who are utter scheidt. Having said that I started playing guitar in primary school but did not start on accompaniment until maybe about 2000 or 2001. I reckon I started on the whistle in about 2002 although I always had one growing up. In don't consider myself to be a particularly good whistle player however. I don't play it enough.
I have learned most of my music from, much to my advantage, getting to play in sessions over the years with some incredible musicians, both Scottish and Irish in style. I now get to play every week with some of the best Irish musicians in Glasgow. In fact I would say some of the best Irish musicians you will find anywhere in the World, certainly as a collective group. I have learned a lot from them and I am very grateful.
I don't think that owning a large collection of old archive albums instantly makes you a traditional musician. Obsessing about the individual note settings of Bobby Casey or Kieran Hanrahan is a distraction from what you should be doing with those recordings, and that is primarily studying the style they play. The style, the lift, the "Nyah" (whatever the f*** that is!) is far more important than whether Bobby chose to play a B or a G on any particular day.
You will have to forgive my tardiness in responding. I was away tonight watching the Young Traditional Musician of the Year tour in Birnam followed by a few tunes. What amazing music and what amazing musicians.
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: developing your ears
Inferior. hmm, no. Personally I choose a setting solely on what feels/sounds right to me. Now why does a version sound good ? I dont know... I knows what I likes and thats what I like
Its probably formative listening that subconsciously influences our choice in how we play a tune. I dont know where I got the four part setting of Rakish Paddy, but Im listening to Bobby Casey play it right now, such an Inspiring and amazing fiddler.
I know that Id been playing trad for years before I even heard of the bothy band,[ surprising I know] but their settings have still been very influential for me. Im sure because back in the early 80's there wasn't much of a selection to choose from that I could access. I learnt all my early stuff from friends, dont know where they got them? Bothy band Albums perhaps
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: developing your ears
OK, so it appears that not everyone plays the tune the same way or the same way each time. The usual advice on this site is to listen to a tune lots of times and only try to play it when we can sing it. This is good preparation for recognising that what others are playing is not quite the same.
Has anyone any suggestions for developing the skills to cope with that situation. Practice ? Practice how ?
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by David50
Re: developing your ears
Here you go david, in case you missed it earlier:
What you could do perhaps, with your computer teknology would be take a phrase from a tune you want to learn , just one, and loop it. Only you can tell what speed is a challenge, but take it at a speed that IS a challenge, but not so much of a challenge that you fall.
Try lilting along with the phrase, once you can sing it, you can pretty much play it.
Also in my mind I know where the sounds I want live on the fiddle, If I think of a phrase I can pretty much 'visualise' my fingers making that phrase, only its not visual.. My fingers actually make the movements.
So try taking a tune you have already and singing it in your head while associating the finger movements of your instrument, but not holding the instrument. Again perhaps take small chunks, short phrases.
Take typical riffs, say a triplet run up to 'd', or a 'd to f ' riff, sing and visualise playing it, then when you recognise this chunk, its easy to identify and play it when you hear it in a tune.
As your repertoire increases you will have a larger bunch of typical riffs that you can identify when you hear them, its not about individual notes, but about short phrases.
Once you have these short phrases in mind and fingers, then you eventually can pick up longer phrases that are perhaps built on 2 or more short bits.
Basically you need to associate the sounds you hear directly to the finger movement on the instrument.
Take it in small stages. a question and answer type thing might be helpfull, with the help of a friend or computer?someone/thing plays a riff and you have to copy it after them. nice and simple at first.
This is how I learnt to play many tunes, with someone sat playing the tune phrase by phrase. As an exercise though you dont have to actually learn a tune , but just practice picking up phrases, with no need to remember them. Ideally of course you want someone to sit with you and show/teach you tunes phrase by phrase. But these exercises will help you learn from someone a bit quicker anyhow.
Now memorising is another subject altogether!!!
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: developing your ears
This thread seems to be going round in circles now!
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: developing your ears
"You hear this all time and it's very frustrating. For example, people playing the Salamanca "fg afdg bgeg" instead of how is should go, "fg afde gbeg" "
Another example is the Banshee, commonly played G2 GD EDEG (1st bar), but as Llig correctly points out:
"instead of the second e in the first bar,
go down to the b on your g string.
that's the tune"
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by domnull
Re: developing your ears
Of course llig the problem of people playing things different is caused by learning by ear. It all depends on who you learn it from. Now if you were to learn from the dots ..... But then of course you would get no variation at all. Just like to point out that in 50 Irish tunes arranged and published by Tommy Peoples 1986 he plays the Salamanca "f afda bgeg" yet again a difference.
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by Bernie
Re: developing your ears
The Banshee, I never knew what that tune was called. Well I have it roughly as Jeremy posted it, certainly with no Low B. Where does th low B setting come from?
I still find this right/wrong argument ludicrous, The low B setting for example could not be played by a whistle , flute, or pipes. The tune strikes me as a typical Pipe Reel as such I would say that the low B is a variation on the tune, not a particularly good one but just as valid as any other setting.
I think there should be a definitive book of tune settings that are considered correct and anyone who deviates from these settings should be excommunicated from the Herd, Consigned to the Wilderness to forever repent their sins
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: developing your ears
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3TgVeQ44pEY
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by bogman
Re: developing your ears
Thanks Ionannas. I did get it first time. I was hoping someone had some different ideas but it appears that apart from llig's point about the 'riffs' they agree with you and can't add anything
Beginning to looking as if I've strayed onto another fiddle thread.
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by David50
Re: developing your ears
Ha ha lots of crossing going on. Back to normal I see.
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by David50
Re: developing your ears
In the past on this site plenty of other people have made the point about note sequences that crop up commonly in tunes being a useful feature when learning. Llig's post above is the first time I can recall anyone pointing out the down side of it. It was a main plank in anti 'scales and arpeggios' argument
So is it better to train ones ear on things that are not chunks of trad tunes ?
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by David50
Re: developing your ears
Not necessarily so David, It all depends on you and what you find easy, take a really simple tune that you dont know, and try phrases of that. I learnt bar by bar from a teacher but I had years of picking up simple bass riffs before that. We all get this stuff at our own pace, no point in trying to rush it or take shortcuts.
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: developing your ears
Yes, there are note sequences that crop up commonly in tunes. But it's a mistake to concentrate on these because it will do the opposite of training your ear. It's more accurate to sat that similar sequences of notes crop up commonly in tunes, and that it's the slight differences in these sequences that make make or break tunes. And being able to hear these slight differences for what they are is the measure of a good ear.
If you want to train your self to do anything, then practice it.
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: developing your ears
Fine then
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by David50
Re: developing your ears
<<If you want to train your self to do anything, then practice it.>>
This is true, up to a point. For example, I teach stick fighting, now yes we could just fight with sticks, but I can assure you thats not the traditional way we train. Yes we do fight with sticks, but Injuries are frequent even with padded sticks masks and protection. Now there is no substitute for getting out there are getting stuck in, as in learning tunes. But in addition to this we do a lot of subsidiary training drills. We learn various techniques in isolation and in combinations, footwork and combined footwork patterns, we train ground fighting, we use feet hands, elbows, head, knees, trapping. We do various partner and solo drills, we train left hand and right, combinations of stick and dagger, all sorts of stuff, we train snap cuts, slashes, thrusts etc etc etc.
We do not just fight, there are hundreds of supplementary exercises which are essential background training for success on the field. There are different levels of accomplishment. I dont just fight my students, that would be ridiculous, we have a go al-right but I consistently display reserve and control until they are able to handle what I throw at them. whereupon I up the level a bit. And I learn from and get beat by my students, thats ok. One was a 16stone rugby player 15-20 yrs my junior. A hard man to stop. Im happy if I can hold my own with him!
Anyone can get lucky and the more technical skill we can develop to support our fighting skills the better.
So back to music, there are numerous exercises and technical drills we can use to facilitate our personal developement.
Think outside the box.
Anyone is welcome to come and train with us, or to play a few tunes, both go on pretty much every day..
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: developing your ears
Playing and listening to music has nothing whatsoever to do with fighting people with sticks.
Music is not combat. It's not a drill. You don't need protection. It's not adversarial. You are not trying to "hold your own". It's not aggressive. It's not defensive. It's not a martial art. It's not sport.
Ionnass, You may well know a great deal about fighting. You may well be quite good at fighting. I certainly would be a little afraid. But it's clear that you do not know what music is. At its most fundamental level, you have no comprehension of what music is. At best, you think it mere exercise.
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: developing your ears
It is amazing Ionannas. You do so many things and are such a deep and interesting individual it is a wonder you have any time left to eat, sleep or breathe!
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: developing your ears
"music has nothing whatsoever to do with fighting people with sticks" if I show up at your session with a bodhran, I just may hold you to that!
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: developing your ears
tee he
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: developing your ears
Of course, he'll retort that I (and everyone else who thinks he's bonkers) don't know what music is. And round and round it will go again. (maybe Bogman will get banned with me this time?)
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: developing your ears
"I don't know what music is"
"No, *I* don't know what music is"
[think Spartacus]
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by ethical blend
Re: developing your ears
A couple of things that llig has said here that deserve reiteration:
>> "Your brain will always follow the path of least resistance. Brains are like that."
So true. My ability to pick up tunes by ear has increased dramatically over the last 6 or 7 years, but part of that ability is the ability to fill in the blanks with meaningful sounding phrases. But when I do that, it's often wrong, because I end up filling a tune with fluff, or miss some interesting twists and turns.
>> "It's more accurate to say that similar sequences of notes crop up commonly in tunes, and that it's the slight differences in these sequences that make make or break tunes. And being able to hear these slight differences for what they are is the measure of a good ear."
Exactly. At this point, my ear is good at picking up a general contour of a tune. But I know a few people whose listening abilities greatly surpass my own, and what makes them different is their ability to hear the "interesting" parts properly. So they don't fluff the tune with random notes from the mode, they accurately hear and reproduce the twists that give the tune its character.
That's a skill to work on - by practicing it specifically. NOT by practicing scales, arpeggios, or "common phrases", because that is just training you to be able to fluff, not really listen.
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by Reverend
Re: developing your ears
Hello gents,
I'd just like to say that "standard" varies by which session you're at, and often which night you're there. However, the standard that should not vary is the gracious accommodation that happens when two actively listening players meld their versions of a tune on the fly to make a greater whole.
It's a pity that doesn't happen around these parts with words more often.
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by reenactor
Re: developing your ears
Another skill that is related, but maybe a step beyond the ability to pick up a tune by ear, is the ability to internalize the contour of a tune, and then be mold it into something similar as part of your expression of it. And the "interesting" twists of the tune that give it character are prime candidates for being expressed in different ways.
The idea of their being some "right setting" for a tune is somewhat fuzzy. Listening to a recording is not necessarily a way to get any kind of "definitive" setting, because the recording is just a snapshot of time. It was the way the person played the tune that day (as evidenced by the discussion of the many different ways that Tommy Peoples has been recorded playing the Salamanca...). And more often than not, you will hear an artist play a particular phrase numerous different ways within a single recording. So which do you consider the "definitive" one? The first time through?
For me, I like to have a "base version" of a melody that I learn, and then I can expand upon that. To be able to do variation, you have to be varying it *from* something more static. That "base version" is usually tied to my source for the tune, either another player, a recording, or occasionally (*gasp*) the dots or ABC from some source (usually a friend, who will send me their setting of a tune via ABC).
FWIW, my "base version" of the B part of the Salamanca is basically this one: fg afde gbeg...
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by Reverend
Re: developing your ears
Rev: “My ability to pick up tunes by ear has increased dramatically over the last 6 or 7 years, but part of that ability is the ability to fill in the blanks with meaningful sounding phrases. But when I do that, it's often wrong, because I end up filling a tune with fluff, or miss some interesting twists and turns.”
An old friend of mine (we go back over forty years) has a habit of filling in tunes like that, only he never seems to realize, or care, that he got it wrong. I tried a couple of times to gently confront him about it, but his response was that those details really didn’t matter. It matters to me when somebody casually rubs off the most delightful little crinkles of a great tune tunes with him. We’re still friends, but I eventually gave up trying to play tunes that I care about with him.
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: developing your ears
"My ability to pick up tunes by ear has increased dramatically over the last 6 or 7 years ...[large deletion] .... At this point, my ear is good at picking up a general contour of a tune." (Reverend)
Huh, well thats cut from one of the most constructive posts so far - but I feel the need to take a quick look at the actuarial tables.
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by David50
Re: developing your ears
Trouble is, as Eccles said, "Everybody's go to be somewhere"
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by David50
Re: developing your ears
Aaargh [eccles probably said that too] "got to be somewhere"
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by David50
Re: developing your ears
on the subject of ear training though, if you make it a point to pick out melodies by ear every day, you do get better at it
I used to try and play along with the advertising jingles on the TV back when I was in music school. It was an easy way to get random, simple melodies, back in the days before the internet
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: developing your ears
I'm a-stayin' outta this. If all these people get banned we're gonna need cavalry...
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: developing your ears
>> "when somebody casually rubs off the most delightful little crinkles of a great tune"
Right. Don't get me wrong, I dislike that too, and I try to recognize when I might be doing that, so that I can focus on trying to get those sections right...
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by Reverend
Re: developing your ears
"It's more accurate to [say] that similar sequences of notes crop up commonly in tunes, and that it's the slight differences in these sequences that make make or break tunes. And being able to hear these slight differences for what they are is the measure of a good ear."
Amen to that!
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by browndog
Re: developing your ears
Understood, Rev. I knew what you meant. Same for me.
# Posted on October 16th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: developing your ears
what a mental can o' beans we have opened.
maybe i can fix it... anyone know where i can get a good pair of musician's ears for transplant?
# Posted on October 17th 2009 by richrua
Re: developing your ears
I myself am always amazed at the fact that, even when some people play around with the tune, sometimes mutating it to a great extent, you can still recognize what tune you are working from. On the other hand, some people, when they only stray a little from a particular version, lose its essence. To me, the tune does not reside in getting every little bit exactly the same. I don't know which notes or which phrases are most important, I just know it when I hear it.
# Posted on October 17th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: developing your ears
There is something to be said for starting into the tradition on tinwhistle. It's a simple diatonic instrument. & what, if anything, is more fun than half-holing?
# Posted on October 17th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: developing your ears
Depends on what you're half-holing!
# Posted on October 17th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: developing your ears
And another thread heads into innuendo!
# Posted on October 18th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: developing your ears
Well before it does. AlBrown I am reasurred that you are amazed about that because its something that I am always seeking an explanation for and never quite finding. Its why the dots are not the 'real' skeleton and I am usually unconvinced when people put it down to chord sequences - even after I go to you bio to understand what they are on about.
# Posted on October 18th 2009 by David50
Re: developing your ears
Fair play, Silver Spear. Personally, I have a grand time whenever an F♮ comes around. D♯, on the other hand (other finger?), not so much.
# Posted on October 18th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: developing your ears
david_h, I am sure that there are people who understand the ins and outs of musical theory that could explain it all--myself, with all the studying I have done to learn about the music, there are still things that I know sound right, but don't understand exactly why.
# Posted on October 18th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: developing your ears
Hmm I find fingering an F to be a nightmare. Not sure why. On the other hand the odd time I have had to play an Eb/D# I have not found it to be too bad. Maybe it is just something about the particular tune.
# Posted on October 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: developing your ears
Which is a shame as F nats seem to be far more common than Ebs.
# Posted on October 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: developing your ears
<<If you want to train your self to do anything, then practice it.>> Ok, My example was misunderstood, try these;
Brain surgery, If you want to become a brain surgeon, operate on peoples brains! Hmmm...
Or you want to play the Highland pipes; so pick them up and play them! .....
Two examples that show clearly that if you want to learn to do something, you dont just practice doing it. You develop skills separately that in time will help you attain the ability you aim for.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: developing your ears
Playing the pipes is hardly brain surgery
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: developing your ears
and?...neither is stick fighting, but they all have some things in common, they require supplementary exercises before actually carrying out the task in full.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: developing your ears
I tend to think playing the tunes by ear is not as complicated as we make it out to be. Hence the line, "It ain't rocket surgery." Silly ~ I know.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by Ben Steen