This is my mantra ~ everything begins with the tune. Everything is in the tune. The rhythm is in the tune. The tune is everything!
I play flute & whistle ~ so no chords. Last week, Tina (one of our new players), was asking me about backing rhythm. Like, how do I know? I play whistle. So ~ help me.
She said she has heard people say guitar is not part of Irish tradition. I said she can play any instrument she chooses as long as she listens.
If it doesn't sound good, with the tunes, stop playing.
My question is simple. It is about backing the fastest tunes. How would you instruct the backer that less is more.
As it turns out, our best guitarists (no offense Mark & Tina) rarely play guitar.
Our best (Irish session) guitarists play (other) melody instruments. As a result I notice our backers are trying harder, on the fastest tunes.
They are in no way relaxed, or comfortable.
Fast tunes, very fast tunes . . . in 20 words or less do I say, "you don't have to match every beat you hear coming from the melody."
or do I tell them, "be patient, Grasshopper, the Grail is not yet in your grasp. Let the other players drink 1st. Your time will come."
I did a bit of researching & found some interseting (maybe conflicting) comments from backers.
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/8706/comments#comment186055
December 20th 2005 by Guernsey Pete
"When guitar was still my main instrument of choice for accompaniment I don't think I ever just strummed on
every beat of every bar, nor would I recommend anyone else to do so."
As a fiddle player, I prefer to play with someone who follows AlBrown's style - I like the choppy, John Doyle-ish flavour it has - but it requires a player who can really play that helicopter sound with style and precision.
I often find if people are trying to hard they end up stirring the pudding - hitting a beat, missing one, hitting one, missing three etc - it kills the drive for me I think.
Mind you, I'm not any great fiddler, so perhaps that's just how the mediocre people like it! It helps me be carried along by the accompaniment and adds drive and lift to my playing.
If I were a more confident player, perhaps I'd be happier with something different. Who knows.
Not sure what you mean by a helicopter sound . I have visions of whirling arms. And being too loud
You should get the chance to tell me in person in the spring rosfrog as I hope to be living in Angers by then
I try and cross pick to get that 8th note rhythm going that random_notes is talking about. John Doyls on his DVD says you should experiment with different ways to play 4/4 time so you can keep that "1-2-3-4,1-2-3-4" feel going. Also keep that down-up, down-up picking stroke going no matter what. that gives you the right bounce. If its all downward picking it sounds like heavy metal music or something
and definitely keep things simple
but 90% of playing fast is relaxing and letting the tempo come to you... the other half is chops!
I think the key thing is to do what you feel comfortable with. If you try to overstrum because you think you need to fit more strums in then it is just going to go out of rhythm, sound bad and possibly give the guitarist a heart attack or sprained wrist (or even a pint glass over the head!)
I still find polkas particularly difficult for playing as fast as I have seen some people play them and jigs gave me problems for years.
The best thing would be, when the tunes are at their fastest to half the speed of the strum and focus on getting the chord changes in the right places and maintaining a steady rhythm. Just be conscious that you might want to work on doubling the rhythm later.
The point to remember is that you can't gradually bring the speed up as you get more comfortable, at least not in a normal session scenario. Your options are really either at speed, double speed (yikes!) and half speed.
When you are starting out on accompaniment, or indeed any instrument, the main focus should be not to ruin it for everyone else! Sometimes less is more. Keeping chord changes to the main ones and strumming at a pace you can manage would be the obvious starting points. Listen all the time to the melody of the tune and how it lifts and falls, where the emphasis of the tune shifts and what colour your chord choices add or take away from the tune.
For reels I tend to strum up and down quite fast, I would be guessing a strum for every 8th note but have never really worked it out. It can be nice to miss out a strum or emphasise particular strums more. It is hard to explain. Again best to listen.
There are a number of different ideas for jig rhythm. Again it would be a strum for every 8th note (quaver) but the strumming pattern can vary. Some common ones will be:
DUD DUD
DUD UDU
D_D UDU
It is maybe a good idea to mix them up a bit, at least the 2nd two. I wouldn't switch between the 1st and 2nd though mid-tune as it is starkly different. DUD DUD is very difficult as it means doing two down strums in a row without an upstrum. Just strumming a few of the strings at a time can help with this and can also lighten the playing somewhat.
I will post more later but I really have to go home now!
Q: Apart from the actual tune as played by the flutes and fiddles and boxes and pipes and whistles and banjos and other single note tune playing ‘trumpets’ (including under-the-breath humming and whistling!), what else do you hear during a session tune (assuming there are no ‘backers’ present)? Try stop playing and listen sometime. There’s always a lot more than you would think!
A: The left hand chords & basses of the squeezeboxes, ornaments, variations on the melody, the clonking, droning and wanging of open strings of the fiddles, general banjo-ness, bodhrans, spoons & bones et cetera (and other ‘non-traditional’ percussion items including punters thrumming the bar or doing that two pound coins on the bar annoyance), drones and regulators of the pipes, harpy stuff (if you’re lucky!), percussion of the feet. (*see below)
Discussion: All this extra noise is the music’s own home grown backing and what ever you do as a backer (be it on six string devil (metal or nylon strings), ‘zouk and its family, piano, baritone ukulele- dare I suggest?!- and so forth) must reflect this charming mellifluous jumble and at a volume comparable with it. Quietly mimic the notes, rhythms and sounds you hear. Any backing should be transparent allowing the tune to be clearly ‘visible’. Keep it simple and relaxed. Just busk it. Play any harmony stuff (or chords if you prefer the term) different every time; on the fly. Try just two chords (or diads) for a whole tune. Listen to the tune and note where the cadences are. That is where you changes will be. Pick out bits of actual tune. Play subliminally. If the tempo is very fast; think half time. Try and imagine you’re playing a harp e.g. play arpeggios on beats 1 & 2 of the bar during a fast jig. Play a drone. Don’t blindly muck up slip jigs! Avoid anything that has to be furiously played.
You don’t have to be loud to be powerful. And a good backer can subtly, almost clandestinely, pull a ragged ensemble together.
Lastly: avoid having more than one backer at a time.
(* Plus, probably all the other noises of the pub; punters talking, farting, belching, playing pool and fighting, air conditioner units, glass washers, glasses being broken, TV’s showing football in the other bar, jukebox, pints being pulled, clinking of glasses, squeaky shoes, cigarette lighters, Rizla being extracted from the packet, doors opening & closing, canaries trilling, bling jingling, dogs barking et cetera et cetera et bloody cetera!)
Surely the 'holy grail" of irish accompaniment is to put you bloody strumerty thing down and pick up a fiddle or a flute and play the bloody tune instead"?
Melody players drive the tune. Advice to backers - let the tune breathe. Spaces are as important as the notes. Accents add colour, and are more effective than the rushed playing which makes everyone lose their balance.
Yogi Berra was not infamous and well-known for being a mathematical genius.
Speaking as someone who can both play melody and accompany himself at the same time on his chosen instrument of musical destruction, I agree with the people who think "less is more" when it comes to accompaniment.
If you are going to be an accompanist/backer at an Irish Session, whatever you are playing and whatever you are playing it on should be subtle, understated, in the background, and quiet enough so the melody and the instruments playing the melody can be heard clearly.
Another Yogi Berra quote - "Nobody goes there anymore - it's too crowded" - very apropos for this discussion, since my favorite guitar players always create loads of S P A C E for the melody to flow through. I've heard the rockers desperately trying to keep pace - teeth gritted, arms flexing, pounding away at every stroke making the tune - well, too damn crowded.
Nice, JNE. As a former rocker, I've got the image in my head. Young rocker showing up at a session and trying to overplay EVERYTHING in bombastic fashion.
There are many ways to accompany. It is too easy for folk to slag off the "rockers" that are not giving the tune a chance to breathe? To be honest it doesn't matter how you accompany (although everyone has their own tastes) as long as you can do your chosen style well:
I would suggest you suggest that Tina listens to lots of Irish music and especially to the accompaniment and decides what style(s) she likes. Just the same recommendation as you would give to a new fiddler to be honest.
I was saying that I'm a former rocker. I guess you can say once a rocker always a rocker because I still love the music. I'm perfectly entitled to make fun of rockers all I want. If you are a competent player and can pull it off without taking away from the session, then there is clearly no problem. Otherwise, keep it under the radar. This is true of an electric jam session as well, not just ITM.
I don't think that NCFA would disagree that's not what he is saying . what I think he is saying is that there is no universal correct style to accompany the tune. Notice how different the examples he has given are .
I would agree with him but adding as well some tunes don't fit some tunes buts that's just my opinion.
Dear Rocker friends - do not take offense to my wee generalization. I often spill a little gas on the campfire just to see who might be lurking about in the woods. I could have easily slagged the blue grass folk guitarist who insists on a 2/4 back-beat Boom-chukka-boom groove regardless of reel, jig, slip-jig etc. There are so many examples of both good and bad playing - on ANY instrument - that references are boundless.
Life is compromise. A good backer will adapt to the situation, and so will a good melody player--but it is true that, in Irish music, The Tune is King. We all serve The Tune.
(Thanks for the links, NCFA. I especially liked it when Liz made a face and said "sorry" at about 2:00 into the first one. Makes me feel a bit better to know that she's human, too.)
Seosamh, these are my mates & I do not think they are intentionally imposing a style, but I think you are right about backers finding their happy place through listening to the melody players. Thanks for all the responses! I will send a link out for this thread to my session mates. Hoping to hear from Guernsey Pete & AlBrown.
Cheers!
I'm logging off this internet wonderland for the time being. If you are just tuning in & wondering what I'm on about ~ here is a recap. Basically, a couple of my backers are turning to me for advice. Jeez, are they ever tapping a dry well! Anyhoo, I am using a previous thread as my jumping off point (is that the right figure of speech?). "Help needed on guitar accompaniment" December 20th 2005 by NeilC http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/8706/
Thus far the responses are grand & I welcome any more. Off to session. Catch you later.
Knowing the tune inside out is the key, as is S P A C E (as said before) and listening to what the tune players are doing, having a good technique and not playing all the bloody time on every tune.
"How about the backer finding his or her happy place by adapting to the melody players that are in the room, instead of imposing a style on them?"
If the backer does not adapt to the other musicians in the session then to be honest they are not listening. I appear, as bazouki dave pointed out, to have been misunderstood. Oh well!
You can all keep on repeating "The Tune is King" as some kind of mantra but I would have thought that that was blindingly obvious. Who out there, who takes this music seriously honestly thinks otherwise?
My point is that rather than just slagging off "rockers" can't we try to look beyond the most basic of analysis and say something worthwhile?
"To be honest it doesn't matter how you accompany (although everyone has their own tastes) as long as you can do your chosen style well"
Ok - I could have phrased this a little better but I am not suggesting it is ok to thrash wildly over a slow air! To be honest I wouldn't say it was ok to "thrash wildly" over anything, but that is not what a good backer does. It is certainly not what John Doyle does. If you find his style to be too heavy for your tastes then fair enough. If you think he is stiffling the tune however and not giving it room to breathe then you really aren't listening properly.
Since I am quoted above, I figured I would chime in. First, without any context, that 'hit every eighth note' statement is some of the worst advice you can give an accompanist, especially one just starting out. Yes, folks like Dennis Cahill hit every eighth note, but they hit it subtly, often you only know they are doing it from a soft brushing sound. I hope folks clicked on the link provided by Random_notes, and read it in context. Or click on my user name and look at the essay on accompaniment that I appended in my profile, and see how the 'grail' remark appears in the context of my discussion of rhythm.
And calling it "AlBrown's style, like rosfrog did, is misleading--it is a style I was discussing, not a style I have achieved myself with any great degree of success. To extend the 'grail' analogy a bit further, I feel that as an accompanist, I am sort of like Sir Gawain, doomed by my sins never to find the ultimate goal of my quest.
Those who condemn or mock all backing of The Music remind me of the folks in the US who advocate 'abstinence'-based sex education for young people. Myself, I prefer a more moderate approach, resigned to the practical fact that people are going to engage in this behavior, despite what we say to them, and that it makes sense to give them the information they need to be safe from adverse consequences (a clumsy analogy, and one fraught with implications of its own, but oh well, there it is).
For myself, I play more melody these days than anything else, transitioning from a backer that sometimes plays melody, to a melody player that sometimes backs up. This is because, as many sessions around the world, my favorite hangout has plenty of backers, but a shortage of melody, and after all, like No Cause for Alarm says, we all agree that the Tune is King.
"As it turns out, our best guitarists ......... rarely play guitar."
Good point to bring up.
My initial musical training was playing trumpet and cornet, later switching to lower brass and percussion. I believe all those years "backing" in a symphonic band or an orchestra gave me a LITTLE better understanding of musical structure, and, more importantly for ITM, a LOT better empathy for lead musicians.
I'd just like to say that quote of mine from early in this discussion, and indeed the whole statement, seems as reasonable a precis of a workable style as I can imagine.
Good I was good, even a few years ago ! ( Pauses to bang enlarged head on doorway as he walks through. )
Fair play Al! There is more detail when you read the statement in context. It does, however, make a strong statement on its' own. You intended that, right?
I would encourage everyone to click on the links above & give each a thorough reading.
If you are an accompanist/backup musician, you don't have to play a note on every beat on every tune. With certain tunes that we play at our local sessions, I don't play all the time non-stop. Occasional, brief silences in the right place and at the right time can be an effective way to break up the monotony of a steady "oom-pah, oom-pah" accompaniment pattern. It took me a little while and some experimentation to figure out which tunes this would work on and when and where it would work. However, I am glad that I took the time and effort to figure out when to play and when to be silent because it sounds better to me than a monotonously steady "oom-pah, oom-pah" accompaniment pattern.
Last night one of *our best guitarists* actually did borrow a guitar. He was showing how he would back "The Rights of Man" This is the sort of thing which helps so much more than anything I could ever say. He sounded so good ~ playing the chords & humming the tune.
I think Mr. Al Brown made one of the funniest and spot-on observations I've seen in a while.
He compared the 'no backing!' mindset to the odd repressive sexual abstinence mind-set.
Brilliant.
People will have sex and back tunes no matter what you tell them. I guess it’s human nature? Best to arm them with all the tools necessary so they do as little damage as possible!
In other words, guitarists and accompanists, please wrap yourself in a prophylactic before coming to session. Thank you.
I don't think they make prophylactics large enough to wrap a whole human being in. And, what is furthermore, how do I play my instrument when I am wrapped inside a prophylactic? Although I don't play a trumpet or a trombone, should I play more "horny" when I am wrapped inside a prophylactic?
Fauxcelt raises a good point, when I was thinking of the steady pulse of eighth notes, I was thinking of a guitar accompanist, not all accompanists, and certainly not pianos. A piano hitting every beat, as Fauxcelt says, can be very intrusive. Unlike Guernsey Pete, I guess I just can't rest on my laurels, blissfully content that I made a statement that withstands the test of time!!!!
And SWFL, you have taken my analogy in a whole new direction, which I had not even imagined (nor do I think I wanted to imagine)!!! After your posting, even the original title of this thread, "Finding our happy place w/the backer." could be seen as taking on a whole new meaning!!!!! lol
here is the original context;
"For reels, this is down up down up etc, with the emphasis usually on the first of the four eighth notes. For jigs, two schools of thoughts, you can go down up down down up down, etc, putting accents on the first and fourth stroke, both down strokes (this is the most common). Or you can go down up down up down up, (just back and forth), putting an accent on the first stroke (down) and the fourth stroke (up). Not as many people do that, I think because it is harder to put an emphasis on the up stroke.
This hit every beat approach takes a very light touch to move that fast, and also not to overpower the melody. Damping with your hand can also help, but like pointed out above, it can be overdone.
As an entry point, you can start by mimicing the old piano accompanists--the good old bass-chord-bass-chord oom pah style of accompaniment works with reels, hornpipes and polkas. For jigs, you can do an oom pah as well, with the oom coming on beat one, the pah coming on beat three, the oom coming on beat four, the pah coming on beat six, kind of a loping rhythm. This actually is more of a single jig rhythm than a double jig rhythm, but it works with both in a pinch.
Some on this site will probably not like that entry level advice, as it is pretty simplistic and corny sounding, but my feeling is you need to crawl before you walk.
And there are far more approaches as well, this is just a taste.
Mostly, listen to CDs and copy what you like.
It is a great joy to play together with family and friends, I bet you and your dad will have lots of fun!"
And here I thought Inn Uendo was a hotel in southwestern Florida which rented rooms by the hour (just thought I would inject that into the comments). My wife says I can look all I want but I can't touch. She has threatened to break my fingers if I do more than just look.
With some musicians who don't have a good internal metronome and can't seem to maintain a steady beat to save their lives, it isn't a good idea to interrupt the regular monotony of a steady "oom-pah, oom-pah" style accompaniment pattern because it might throw them off and make their melody playing even more irregular than it already is. People like this need a steady beat playing under and in back of their attempts to play the melody.
Random, Nothing is wrong with Gurnsey Pete's last comment--I was poking fun at myself, mostly, and the fact that, while he was content with what he had said previously, I on the other hand went nattering on with additional comments, clarifications, qualifications, etc. Regarding his original statement, I am in agreement that many backers should not try to hit every eighth note, but I do think that, in the right guitarist's hands, that steady pulse can be quite effective and sound very good.
And Ionannas, once again, you prove how unique you are--I have never encountered anyone who strums a jig the way you describe!
"And Ionannas, once again, you prove how unique you are--I have never encountered anyone who strums a jig the way you describe!"
Unfortunately he is not entirely unique in this analysis. As I said towards the top of this thread this is a pattern that I use myself, albeit not exclusively. I also don't think it is that rare a one to use either.
Having said that I don't think that my guitar style is particularly similar to Ionannas' own.
It's alive! Thanks for tagging on a few more comments.
Good response, Al & thank you for the quotes I copied.
At our next session I will ask the backers if one of them ever ~
D_D UDU
I cannot speak from experience, as I am not a backer.
However, it seems this might be one way to give some lift, in a jig.
Especially going from the last Upstroke into the next downbeat (Downstroke). I'm guessing the last upstroke is timed just before the downbeat?
If I have this completely wrong please let me know.
Really all D_D UDU is is DUD UDU but missing out an up stroke. Interesting link there. It appears I missed that thread first time round. I had neven thought of DDU DDU before. I will give it a shot right now.
"Re: Finding the lift" August 21st 2007 by llig leahcim
"This is a good thread this, I'm enjoying it.
I find that just as sometimes people confuse pace with drive, they often confuse swing with lift. . .
. . . How does the tune turn? Where does the line play through the bar lines? Where does the line interrupt.
And, of course, how can you personally nudge the tune into playing through bar lines and pause it
in interesting percussive places? I'm being quite specific here.
My take on it is that while you can make "the music" swing, it's "the tunes" that you can give lift to. . . "
The above comments (via linkage) make sense to me regarding the tune (original post, 1st line) But I'm thinking tune rhythm & backing rhythm aren't necessarily synonymous.
Backers must be going back & forth between rhythmic paradigms? I just made this up.
And once again, Al proves his ignorance! Thanks for pointing out what I was missing, No Cause. Guess I need to try it myself, and see how it works. I myself am a D_U D_U or D_U DUD or DUD D_U or DUD DUD strummer on jigs, never got an upstroke to work on the first or fourth eighth note of the measures.
I was in a week of workshops with Dennis Cahill a few years ago, and he was doing the stream of eighth notes strum thing on a reel rhythm, and smooth as silk, switched it to DUD UDU jig strumming and back again, all by applying subtle accents to that steady pulse, one of the most amazing displays I have ever seen. Not flashy, but really effective. And the accents he added brought a tremendous amount of lift to what he was doing. During that week, he ended up playing in a lot of different settings with a lot of people he had never played with before, and it was amazing how well he complemented the melody players, and how smoothly and subtly he did it. It was really that week that opened my eyes to that mode of playing.
Regarding your last comment, Random, tune and backing rhythms shouldn't always be exactly the same, that would be boring, but they should be complementary. How to achieve it, and make it work, that is where the art is......
Jig rhythm is probably the thing I have battled with most over the last few years working on accompaniment. I would certainly agree that, amongst the really great guitarists you see in Scotland and Ireland, particularly in Glasgow then DUD DUD does predominate and it is that that I worked on for years. I found it really difficult because you are trying to get two down strokes in a very short space of time. Once I finally "cracked it" the melody players I was playing with in Dundee complained that they preferred DUD UDU. You really can't win! The use of D_D UDU was a bit of an epiphany, as most of the developments in this music seem to be, at the Highland Annual event in Edinburgh a couple of years ago when a great Irish guitarist who lives in Edinburgh played in the session to a set of jigs. Someone commented that they really liked his jig rhythm and asked what he was doing. He wasn't sure but when it was slowed down it did appear to be D_D UDU. From years of battling it seemed to come so easily.
I am not sure whether I am playing D_D UDU or DUD UDU more often. I tend not to think about it. It is probably a mix. I don't want to give up on DUD DUD because I think it is more driving than any other strumming pattern. It is difficult to maintain if you don't practice it however and to switch from DUD UDU to DUD DUD in mid-set, maybe at the start of a new tune is horrendously difficult. Still, I live in hope.
Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Finding our happy place w/the backer.
This is my mantra ~ everything begins with the tune. Everything is in the tune. The rhythm is in the tune. The tune is everything!
I play flute & whistle ~ so no chords. Last week, Tina (one of our new players), was asking me about backing rhythm. Like, how do I know? I play whistle. So ~ help me.
She said she has heard people say guitar is not part of Irish tradition. I said she can play any instrument she chooses as long as she listens.
If it doesn't sound good, with the tunes, stop playing.
My question is simple. It is about backing the fastest tunes. How would you instruct the backer that less is more.
As it turns out, our best guitarists (no offense Mark & Tina) rarely play guitar.
Our best (Irish session) guitarists play (other) melody instruments. As a result I notice our backers are trying harder, on the fastest tunes.
They are in no way relaxed, or comfortable.
Fast tunes, very fast tunes . . . in 20 words or less do I say, "you don't have to match every beat you hear coming from the melody."
or do I tell them, "be patient, Grasshopper, the Grail is not yet in your grasp. Let the other players drink 1st. Your time will come."
I did a bit of researching & found some interseting (maybe conflicting) comments from backers.
Re: Help needed on guitar accompaniment
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/8706/comments#comment186055
December 20th 2005 by Guernsey Pete
"When guitar was still my main instrument of choice for accompaniment I don't think I ever just strummed on
every beat of every bar, nor would I recommend anyone else to do so."
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/8706/comments#comment186025
December 20th 2005 by AlBrown
"The 'holy grail" of irish accompaniment is to hit a strum on every eighth note,
and by accenting certain of those eighth notes, add texture."
Thanks!
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Good question !
As a fiddle player, I prefer to play with someone who follows AlBrown's style - I like the choppy, John Doyle-ish flavour it has - but it requires a player who can really play that helicopter sound with style and precision.
I often find if people are trying to hard they end up stirring the pudding - hitting a beat, missing one, hitting one, missing three etc - it kills the drive for me I think.
Mind you, I'm not any great fiddler, so perhaps that's just how the mediocre people like it! It helps me be carried along by the accompaniment and adds drive and lift to my playing.
If I were a more confident player, perhaps I'd be happier with something different. Who knows.
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by rosfrog
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Not sure what you mean by a helicopter sound . I have visions of whirling arms. And being too loud
You should get the chance to tell me in person in the spring rosfrog as I hope to be living in Angers by then
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
I try and cross pick to get that 8th note rhythm going that random_notes is talking about. John Doyls on his DVD says you should experiment with different ways to play 4/4 time so you can keep that "1-2-3-4,1-2-3-4" feel going. Also keep that down-up, down-up picking stroke going no matter what. that gives you the right bounce. If its all downward picking it sounds like heavy metal music or something
and definitely keep things simple
but 90% of playing fast is relaxing and letting the tempo come to you... the other half is chops!
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
90% is this. The other 50% is that.
I like that
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by ...
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
I think the key thing is to do what you feel comfortable with. If you try to overstrum because you think you need to fit more strums in then it is just going to go out of rhythm, sound bad and possibly give the guitarist a heart attack or sprained wrist (or even a pint glass over the head!)
I still find polkas particularly difficult for playing as fast as I have seen some people play them and jigs gave me problems for years.
The best thing would be, when the tunes are at their fastest to half the speed of the strum and focus on getting the chord changes in the right places and maintaining a steady rhythm. Just be conscious that you might want to work on doubling the rhythm later.
The point to remember is that you can't gradually bring the speed up as you get more comfortable, at least not in a normal session scenario. Your options are really either at speed, double speed (yikes!) and half speed.
When you are starting out on accompaniment, or indeed any instrument, the main focus should be not to ruin it for everyone else! Sometimes less is more. Keeping chord changes to the main ones and strumming at a pace you can manage would be the obvious starting points. Listen all the time to the melody of the tune and how it lifts and falls, where the emphasis of the tune shifts and what colour your chord choices add or take away from the tune.
For reels I tend to strum up and down quite fast, I would be guessing a strum for every 8th note but have never really worked it out. It can be nice to miss out a strum or emphasise particular strums more. It is hard to explain. Again best to listen.
There are a number of different ideas for jig rhythm. Again it would be a strum for every 8th note (quaver) but the strumming pattern can vary. Some common ones will be:
DUD DUD
DUD UDU
D_D UDU
It is maybe a good idea to mix them up a bit, at least the 2nd two. I wouldn't switch between the 1st and 2nd though mid-tune as it is starkly different. DUD DUD is very difficult as it means doing two down strums in a row without an upstrum. Just strumming a few of the strings at a time can help with this and can also lighten the playing somewhat.
I will post more later but I really have to go home now!
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Oooo - when I started typing there had been no replies at all.
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Q: Apart from the actual tune as played by the flutes and fiddles and boxes and pipes and whistles and banjos and other single note tune playing ‘trumpets’ (including under-the-breath humming and whistling!), what else do you hear during a session tune (assuming there are no ‘backers’ present)? Try stop playing and listen sometime. There’s always a lot more than you would think!
A: The left hand chords & basses of the squeezeboxes, ornaments, variations on the melody, the clonking, droning and wanging of open strings of the fiddles, general banjo-ness, bodhrans, spoons & bones et cetera (and other ‘non-traditional’ percussion items including punters thrumming the bar or doing that two pound coins on the bar annoyance), drones and regulators of the pipes, harpy stuff (if you’re lucky!), percussion of the feet. (*see below)
Discussion: All this extra noise is the music’s own home grown backing and what ever you do as a backer (be it on six string devil (metal or nylon strings), ‘zouk and its family, piano, baritone ukulele- dare I suggest?!- and so forth) must reflect this charming mellifluous jumble and at a volume comparable with it. Quietly mimic the notes, rhythms and sounds you hear. Any backing should be transparent allowing the tune to be clearly ‘visible’. Keep it simple and relaxed. Just busk it. Play any harmony stuff (or chords if you prefer the term) different every time; on the fly. Try just two chords (or diads) for a whole tune. Listen to the tune and note where the cadences are. That is where you changes will be. Pick out bits of actual tune. Play subliminally. If the tempo is very fast; think half time. Try and imagine you’re playing a harp e.g. play arpeggios on beats 1 & 2 of the bar during a fast jig. Play a drone. Don’t blindly muck up slip jigs! Avoid anything that has to be furiously played.
You don’t have to be loud to be powerful. And a good backer can subtly, almost clandestinely, pull a ragged ensemble together.
Lastly: avoid having more than one backer at a time.
(* Plus, probably all the other noises of the pub; punters talking, farting, belching, playing pool and fighting, air conditioner units, glass washers, glasses being broken, TV’s showing football in the other bar, jukebox, pints being pulled, clinking of glasses, squeaky shoes, cigarette lighters, Rizla being extracted from the packet, doors opening & closing, canaries trilling, bling jingling, dogs barking et cetera et cetera et bloody cetera!)
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by yhaalhouse
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
that's an old Yogi Berra saying for ya there, Llig
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Surely the 'holy grail" of irish accompaniment is to put you bloody strumerty thing down and pick up a fiddle or a flute and play the bloody tune instead"?
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by ...
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Melody players drive the tune. Advice to backers - let the tune breathe. Spaces are as important as the notes. Accents add colour, and are more effective than the rushed playing which makes everyone lose their balance.
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by drone
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Yogi Berra was not infamous and well-known for being a mathematical genius.
Speaking as someone who can both play melody and accompany himself at the same time on his chosen instrument of musical destruction, I agree with the people who think "less is more" when it comes to accompaniment.
If you are going to be an accompanist/backer at an Irish Session, whatever you are playing and whatever you are playing it on should be subtle, understated, in the background, and quiet enough so the melody and the instruments playing the melody can be heard clearly.
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Another Yogi Berra quote - "Nobody goes there anymore - it's too crowded" - very apropos for this discussion, since my favorite guitar players always create loads of S P A C E for the melody to flow through. I've heard the rockers desperately trying to keep pace - teeth gritted, arms flexing, pounding away at every stroke making the tune - well, too damn crowded.
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Well said, JNE.
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by John Culhane
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
a tv ad years ago ended with the quote - ''Don't talk _ E A T ''
try - ''Don't think _ P L A Y '' as that's what i do with S P A C E in Open C too
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by lisaniska
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Nice, JNE. As a former rocker, I've got the image in my head. Young rocker showing up at a session and trying to overplay EVERYTHING in bombastic fashion.
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
There are many ways to accompany. It is too easy for folk to slag off the "rockers" that are not giving the tune a chance to breathe? To be honest it doesn't matter how you accompany (although everyone has their own tastes) as long as you can do your chosen style well:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gtH4aGb04Og
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D4fT5V14uns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kfyu67M8994
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Not sure why I put a question mark in there! I think I rewrote the sentence too much.
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
I would suggest you suggest that Tina listens to lots of Irish music and especially to the accompaniment and decides what style(s) she likes. Just the same recommendation as you would give to a new fiddler to be honest.
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
I was saying that I'm a former rocker. I guess you can say once a rocker always a rocker because I still love the music. I'm perfectly entitled to make fun of rockers all I want. If you are a competent player and can pull it off without taking away from the session, then there is clearly no problem. Otherwise, keep it under the radar. This is true of an electric jam session as well, not just ITM.
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
"To be honest it doesn't matter how you accompany (although everyone has their own tastes) as long as you can do your chosen style well"
No offence NCFA but it is comments like this that breed bad backers. The tune is king - long live the tune!
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by ruanua
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
I don't think that NCFA would disagree that's not what he is saying . what I think he is saying is that there is no universal correct style to accompany the tune. Notice how different the examples he has given are .
I would agree with him but adding as well some tunes don't fit some tunes buts that's just my opinion.
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Whoops I meant to say some styles don't fit some tunes
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by bazouki dave
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
How about the backer finding his or her happy place by adapting to the melody players that are in the room, instead of imposing a style on them?
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Dear Rocker friends - do not take offense to my wee generalization. I often spill a little gas on the campfire just to see who might be lurking about in the woods. I could have easily slagged the blue grass folk guitarist who insists on a 2/4 back-beat Boom-chukka-boom groove regardless of reel, jig, slip-jig etc. There are so many examples of both good and bad playing - on ANY instrument - that references are boundless.
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Life is compromise. A good backer will adapt to the situation, and so will a good melody player--but it is true that, in Irish music, The Tune is King. We all serve The Tune.
(Thanks for the links, NCFA. I especially liked it when Liz made a face and said "sorry" at about 2:00 into the first one. Makes me feel a bit better to know that she's human, too.)
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by John Galt
Finding the happy place.
Seosamh, these are my mates & I do not think they are intentionally imposing a style, but I think you are right about backers finding their happy place through listening to the melody players. Thanks for all the responses! I will send a link out for this thread to my session mates. Hoping to hear from Guernsey Pete & AlBrown.
Cheers!
# Posted on October 13th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
I'm logging off this internet wonderland for the time being. If you are just tuning in & wondering what I'm on about ~ here is a recap. Basically, a couple of my backers are turning to me for advice. Jeez, are they ever tapping a dry well! Anyhoo, I am using a previous thread as my jumping off point (is that the right figure of speech?). "Help needed on guitar accompaniment" December 20th 2005 by NeilC http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/8706/
Thus far the responses are grand & I welcome any more. Off to session. Catch you later.
# Posted on October 14th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Knowing the tune inside out is the key, as is S P A C E (as said before) and listening to what the tune players are doing, having a good technique and not playing all the bloody time on every tune.
# Posted on October 14th 2009 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
"How about the backer finding his or her happy place by adapting to the melody players that are in the room, instead of imposing a style on them?"
If the backer does not adapt to the other musicians in the session then to be honest they are not listening. I appear, as bazouki dave pointed out, to have been misunderstood. Oh well!
You can all keep on repeating "The Tune is King" as some kind of mantra but I would have thought that that was blindingly obvious. Who out there, who takes this music seriously honestly thinks otherwise?
My point is that rather than just slagging off "rockers" can't we try to look beyond the most basic of analysis and say something worthwhile?
"To be honest it doesn't matter how you accompany (although everyone has their own tastes) as long as you can do your chosen style well"
Ok - I could have phrased this a little better but I am not suggesting it is ok to thrash wildly over a slow air! To be honest I wouldn't say it was ok to "thrash wildly" over anything, but that is not what a good backer does. It is certainly not what John Doyle does. If you find his style to be too heavy for your tastes then fair enough. If you think he is stiffling the tune however and not giving it room to breathe then you really aren't listening properly.
# Posted on October 14th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Since I am quoted above, I figured I would chime in. First, without any context, that 'hit every eighth note' statement is some of the worst advice you can give an accompanist, especially one just starting out. Yes, folks like Dennis Cahill hit every eighth note, but they hit it subtly, often you only know they are doing it from a soft brushing sound. I hope folks clicked on the link provided by Random_notes, and read it in context. Or click on my user name and look at the essay on accompaniment that I appended in my profile, and see how the 'grail' remark appears in the context of my discussion of rhythm.
And calling it "AlBrown's style, like rosfrog did, is misleading--it is a style I was discussing, not a style I have achieved myself with any great degree of success. To extend the 'grail' analogy a bit further, I feel that as an accompanist, I am sort of like Sir Gawain, doomed by my sins never to find the ultimate goal of my quest.
Those who condemn or mock all backing of The Music remind me of the folks in the US who advocate 'abstinence'-based sex education for young people. Myself, I prefer a more moderate approach, resigned to the practical fact that people are going to engage in this behavior, despite what we say to them, and that it makes sense to give them the information they need to be safe from adverse consequences (a clumsy analogy, and one fraught with implications of its own, but oh well, there it is).
For myself, I play more melody these days than anything else, transitioning from a backer that sometimes plays melody, to a melody player that sometimes backs up. This is because, as many sessions around the world, my favorite hangout has plenty of backers, but a shortage of melody, and after all, like No Cause for Alarm says, we all agree that the Tune is King.
# Posted on October 14th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
"As it turns out, our best guitarists ......... rarely play guitar."
Good point to bring up.
My initial musical training was playing trumpet and cornet, later switching to lower brass and percussion. I believe all those years "backing" in a symphonic band or an orchestra gave me a LITTLE better understanding of musical structure, and, more importantly for ITM, a LOT better empathy for lead musicians.
A walk in someone else's shoes, perhaps.
FWIW,
# Posted on October 14th 2009 by Piece
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
I'd just like to say that quote of mine from early in this discussion, and indeed the whole statement, seems as reasonable a precis of a workable style as I can imagine.
Good I was good, even a few years ago ! ( Pauses to bang enlarged head on doorway as he walks through. )
# Posted on October 14th 2009 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Fair play Al! There is more detail when you read the statement in context. It does, however, make a strong statement on its' own. You intended that, right?
I would encourage everyone to click on the links above & give each a thorough reading.
# Posted on October 14th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Strumming every eighth-note or every eighth note?
# Posted on October 14th 2009 by Bob himself
different strokes for different folks.
# Posted on October 14th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Hmmm, might be interesting to strum every eighth ... note in a jig.
# Posted on October 14th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
So, let's see, every eight measures, you'd come back to the first beat of the measure. Yeah, that works.
# Posted on October 14th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
No, every four measures, right?
# Posted on October 14th 2009 by Bob himself
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
If you are an accompanist/backup musician, you don't have to play a note on every beat on every tune. With certain tunes that we play at our local sessions, I don't play all the time non-stop. Occasional, brief silences in the right place and at the right time can be an effective way to break up the monotony of a steady "oom-pah, oom-pah" accompaniment pattern. It took me a little while and some experimentation to figure out which tunes this would work on and when and where it would work. However, I am glad that I took the time and effort to figure out when to play and when to be silent because it sounds better to me than a monotonously steady "oom-pah, oom-pah" accompaniment pattern.
# Posted on October 14th 2009 by fauxcelt
The happy place with the backer & the tune.
Last night one of *our best guitarists* actually did borrow a guitar. He was showing how he would back "The Rights of Man" This is the sort of thing which helps so much more than anything I could ever say. He sounded so good ~ playing the chords & humming the tune.
# Posted on October 14th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
I think Mr. Al Brown made one of the funniest and spot-on observations I've seen in a while.
He compared the 'no backing!' mindset to the odd repressive sexual abstinence mind-set.
Brilliant.
People will have sex and back tunes no matter what you tell them. I guess it’s human nature? Best to arm them with all the tools necessary so they do as little damage as possible!
In other words, guitarists and accompanists, please wrap yourself in a prophylactic before coming to session. Thank you.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
I don't think they make prophylactics large enough to wrap a whole human being in. And, what is furthermore, how do I play my instrument when I am wrapped inside a prophylactic? Although I don't play a trumpet or a trombone, should I play more "horny" when I am wrapped inside a prophylactic?
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Well, that's a good point fc. Hmm. I suppose it's OK to have contact with your instrument., just as long as you don't touch anyone else's instrument.
If I find a way to inject any more innuendo into this thread, I'll be back.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Fauxcelt raises a good point, when I was thinking of the steady pulse of eighth notes, I was thinking of a guitar accompanist, not all accompanists, and certainly not pianos. A piano hitting every beat, as Fauxcelt says, can be very intrusive. Unlike Guernsey Pete, I guess I just can't rest on my laurels, blissfully content that I made a statement that withstands the test of time!!!!
lol
And SWFL, you have taken my analogy in a whole new direction, which I had not even imagined (nor do I think I wanted to imagine)!!! After your posting, even the original title of this thread, "Finding our happy place w/the backer." could be seen as taking on a whole new meaning!!!!!
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by AlBrown
Since you're on line
here is the original context;
"For reels, this is down up down up etc, with the emphasis usually on the first of the four eighth notes. For jigs, two schools of thoughts, you can go down up down down up down, etc, putting accents on the first and fourth stroke, both down strokes (this is the most common). Or you can go down up down up down up, (just back and forth), putting an accent on the first stroke (down) and the fourth stroke (up). Not as many people do that, I think because it is harder to put an emphasis on the up stroke.
This hit every beat approach takes a very light touch to move that fast, and also not to overpower the melody. Damping with your hand can also help, but like pointed out above, it can be overdone.
As an entry point, you can start by mimicing the old piano accompanists--the good old bass-chord-bass-chord oom pah style of accompaniment works with reels, hornpipes and polkas. For jigs, you can do an oom pah as well, with the oom coming on beat one, the pah coming on beat three, the oom coming on beat four, the pah coming on beat six, kind of a loping rhythm. This actually is more of a single jig rhythm than a double jig rhythm, but it works with both in a pinch.
Some on this site will probably not like that entry level advice, as it is pretty simplistic and corny sounding, but my feeling is you need to crawl before you walk.
And there are far more approaches as well, this is just a taste.
Mostly, listen to CDs and copy what you like.
It is a great joy to play together with family and friends, I bet you and your dad will have lots of fun!"
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by Ben Steen
BTW
What is wrong with Guernsey Pete's previous comment?
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
As a rough generalisation I play jigs D-D UDU, to get that 1 strong and clear.
# Posted on October 15th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
And here I thought Inn Uendo was a hotel in southwestern Florida which rented rooms by the hour (just thought I would inject that into the comments). My wife says I can look all I want but I can't touch. She has threatened to break my fingers if I do more than just look.
# Posted on October 17th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
With some musicians who don't have a good internal metronome and can't seem to maintain a steady beat to save their lives, it isn't a good idea to interrupt the regular monotony of a steady "oom-pah, oom-pah" style accompaniment pattern because it might throw them off and make their melody playing even more irregular than it already is. People like this need a steady beat playing under and in back of their attempts to play the melody.
# Posted on October 17th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Random, Nothing is wrong with Gurnsey Pete's last comment--I was poking fun at myself, mostly, and the fact that, while he was content with what he had said previously, I on the other hand went nattering on with additional comments, clarifications, qualifications, etc. Regarding his original statement, I am in agreement that many backers should not try to hit every eighth note, but I do think that, in the right guitarist's hands, that steady pulse can be quite effective and sound very good.
And Ionannas, once again, you prove how unique you are--I have never encountered anyone who strums a jig the way you describe!
# Posted on October 17th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
"And Ionannas, once again, you prove how unique you are--I have never encountered anyone who strums a jig the way you describe!"
Unfortunately he is not entirely unique in this analysis. As I said towards the top of this thread this is a pattern that I use myself, albeit not exclusively. I also don't think it is that rare a one to use either.
Having said that I don't think that my guitar style is particularly similar to Ionannas' own.
# Posted on October 17th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Backing ~ again
It's alive! Thanks for tagging on a few more comments.
Good response, Al & thank you for the quotes I copied.
At our next session I will ask the backers if one of them ever ~
D_D UDU
I cannot speak from experience, as I am not a backer.
However, it seems this might be one way to give some lift, in a jig.
Especially going from the last Upstroke into the next downbeat (Downstroke). I'm guessing the last upstroke is timed just before the downbeat?
If I have this completely wrong please let me know.
# Posted on October 17th 2009 by Ben Steen
On topic, but out of context (unless you click & read) ;)
Re: Jigs (DUD DUD)
February 13th 2006 by Dow
"The other advantage of DUD DUD and DDU DDU is that you have . . . "
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/9175/comments#comment195009
# Posted on October 17th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Really all D_D UDU is is DUD UDU but missing out an up stroke. Interesting link there. It appears I missed that thread first time round. I had neven thought of DDU DDU before. I will give it a shot right now.
# Posted on October 17th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Thanks No Cause ~ more links to follow
"Re: Finding the lift" August 21st 2007 by llig leahcim
"This is a good thread this, I'm enjoying it.
I find that just as sometimes people confuse pace with drive, they often confuse swing with lift. . .
. . . How does the tune turn? Where does the line play through the bar lines? Where does the line interrupt.
And, of course, how can you personally nudge the tune into playing through bar lines and pause it
in interesting percussive places? I'm being quite specific here.
My take on it is that while you can make "the music" swing, it's "the tunes" that you can give lift to. . . "
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14869/comments#comment306468
# Posted on October 17th 2009 by Ben Steen
*
The above comments (via linkage) make sense to me regarding the tune (original post, 1st line) But I'm thinking tune rhythm & backing rhythm aren't necessarily synonymous.
Backers must be going back & forth between rhythmic paradigms? I just made this up.
# Posted on October 17th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
And once again, Al proves his ignorance! Thanks for pointing out what I was missing, No Cause. Guess I need to try it myself, and see how it works.
I myself am a D_U D_U or D_U DUD or DUD D_U or DUD DUD strummer on jigs, never got an upstroke to work on the first or fourth eighth note of the measures.
I was in a week of workshops with Dennis Cahill a few years ago, and he was doing the stream of eighth notes strum thing on a reel rhythm, and smooth as silk, switched it to DUD UDU jig strumming and back again, all by applying subtle accents to that steady pulse, one of the most amazing displays I have ever seen. Not flashy, but really effective. And the accents he added brought a tremendous amount of lift to what he was doing. During that week, he ended up playing in a lot of different settings with a lot of people he had never played with before, and it was amazing how well he complemented the melody players, and how smoothly and subtly he did it. It was really that week that opened my eyes to that mode of playing.
Regarding your last comment, Random, tune and backing rhythms shouldn't always be exactly the same, that would be boring, but they should be complementary. How to achieve it, and make it work, that is where the art is......
# Posted on October 18th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Jig rhythm is probably the thing I have battled with most over the last few years working on accompaniment. I would certainly agree that, amongst the really great guitarists you see in Scotland and Ireland, particularly in Glasgow then DUD DUD does predominate and it is that that I worked on for years. I found it really difficult because you are trying to get two down strokes in a very short space of time. Once I finally "cracked it" the melody players I was playing with in Dundee complained that they preferred DUD UDU. You really can't win! The use of D_D UDU was a bit of an epiphany, as most of the developments in this music seem to be, at the Highland Annual event in Edinburgh a couple of years ago when a great Irish guitarist who lives in Edinburgh played in the session to a set of jigs. Someone commented that they really liked his jig rhythm and asked what he was doing. He wasn't sure but when it was slowed down it did appear to be D_D UDU. From years of battling it seemed to come so easily.
I am not sure whether I am playing D_D UDU or DUD UDU more often. I tend not to think about it. It is probably a mix. I don't want to give up on DUD DUD because I think it is more driving than any other strumming pattern. It is difficult to maintain if you don't practice it however and to switch from DUD UDU to DUD DUD in mid-set, maybe at the start of a new tune is horrendously difficult. Still, I live in hope.
# Posted on October 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Oh and bearing in mind that I have been called Al before I started a bit when I first began reading your post. I am such a sensitive soul.
# Posted on October 18th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Well, No Cause For Alarm, I guess we are "Al" in the same boat, aren't we! Glad you realized I was poking fun at myself, there!
# Posted on October 18th 2009 by AlBrown
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
I like the D-D UDU because it allows a triplet D-(3DUD)UDU.
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by piobagusfidil
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
I see you still have a wonderful sense of humour Ionannas!
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by No Cause For Alarm
Re: Finding our happy place w/the backer.
Hmmm... Where's the joke ?
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by piobagusfidil