Because when there are lots of instruments and you can't hear yourself, going sharp makes your instrument stand out. This is why whistle and flute players go sharp. Then fiddles and such tune up to them. It gets out of control. I often play an A on my concertina between tunes sets hoping to have people tune back down.
Flutes also get sharper as the main effect of warming up. So if tuned at the start of a session and then played, they will end up sharp. Also as the player gets more enthusiastic and blows harder/louder as the evening goes on, the flute will get sharper unless the player takes steps to correct it (lipping back down or pulling out the tuning slide). Same applies to the whistle.
I've rarely heard a properly in tune whistle anyway... The best that I know are quite close, but they just don't have the control to adjust to what their ears are hearing at any particular instant. Certainly when playing together with a whistle, I expect to be the one making tuning corrections, especially above the second octave G.
Interesting experience recently, playing the full rigged ship fairly slowly with one fiddler. I spent a lot of effort listening to her playing and making sure that my flute was in tune with whatever was coming out of the fiddle at that moment. Afterwards she said that I kept getting lower and lower and she was continually having to creep flatter to keep up with me! So obviously she and I have different images of what a flute and violin in tune together is meant to sound like! This doesn't happen with several other fiddlers that I regularly play that set with - could still be my fault though? I wish now that I'd recorded that set so that I could work it out.
Well eb, I haven't been playing long, and I'm only speaking from personal experience (before playing in sessions even). The first problem with learning the violin is finding the notes and then trying to play them in tune. I think most people try to avoid sounding flat so probably end up being very slightly sharp.
I hadn't noticed sessions getting out of tune before. (But that doesn't mean anything !)The only instrument I'd noticed with a particular problem was the pipes, and that was usually because of the heat in the room. Sometimes the only solution was for we fiddles to tune down to him.
How far is tuning absolute and how far is it to do with each individual musician? Is it affected by the tone of the instrument? Do fiddles and whistles sounds sharper than reed instruments because they are "shriller"? Do musicians' perception of what's in tune change over the course of the evening? (Too many questions, I know)
Of course it's a subjective thing, that's why digital tuners sound out of tune. And a musician's perception of what's in tune changes as their ability grows
It's normal for any ensemble of instruments to go out of tune after a few minutes into playing. That's why orchestras have a quick re-tune after the first piece in a concert. Instruments take time to adjust to the ambient temperature (pubs get warmer as the evening goes on), and instruments warm up from the action of playing anyway.
A violin soloist with an orchestra would naturally tune to the sharpest instrument present.
Even the best orchestras compromise their tuning. It's impossible to get a hundred or so people with the same preferences for intonation.
Small ensembles are much better, string quartets for example. The best quartets have played together for many years and have developed their collective preferences for intonation colour over those years. People who've played diddley tunes together for years are the same.
G'Day Michael, how are things in bonnie Scotland?
Tuning???? rubbish, the whole concept. Tune six guitars to the same tuning fork (or machine) and they will all sound different.
As the defendant said in the great aussie movie The Castle "It's a vibe"
I may not know much about music, but I know what I like.
I know quite a few musicians who like to play in Eb rather than D, etc. So box players have to adapt. Tommy Peoples etc record in those keys. I used to think the recordings had been speeded up to sound faster until I met folk in sessions who liked sharp or flat sessions. Sometimes using older boxes or pipes.
They shouldn't be, just tell the sharpys to tune up (down). Whistling sharp is just bad whistling. Crackpot, you are obviously playing with bad whistlers or whistlers with bad whistles. Sharp fiddling is bad fiddling too. No matter what opinions on tuners are, for a session give me at least someone with a clip on to get a solid A anytime. Out of tune sessions are as bad as out of time sessions, but should be much easier to deal with.
Does anyone else feel surprised at the number of musicians using electronic tuners in sessions?
I was a fiddler in the olden-days when a pitch-pipe with one note sufficed, and you tuned all strings to that and you could "feel" the strings being in tune, despite being in noisy, echoing spit'n'sawdust bars. (I also remember guitar and banjo players using the same method).
Are modern "musicians" idle or can't they "feel" when the instrument is in tune?
If memory serves me somone on this site observed that 'tuning is an ag reement between musicians'.
If you're bothering to listen to the other musicians in the session you'll know. Of course the environment will affect the instruments; I always find my fiddle gets 'sharp' when it gets warmed up in a pub or wherever. The sin is not doing anything about it. And yes, I own a tuner but it's only 'a start' - as geoffwright observes you 'know' when it sounds right.
I don't know about other stringed instruments but fiddles definitely "ring" when they play a perfect perfect fifth - so I guess you could say you feel it when they are in tune.
@bogman: "Crackpot, you are obviously playing with bad whistlers or whistlers with bad whistles. " - no argument with you there bogman. But hey, that's who I've got in this neck of the woods. (Though most of the whistlers seem to be a bit dormant right now? Weather? Economic climate?)
And I remember speaking to a very good artist who blithely informed me that no one makes a professional CD these days with whistles on it without first running the whistle tracks through autotune... Can anyone out ther comment on how accurate this assessment is?
If people are doing what Phantom Button says in the second post, then they clearly are listening otherwise they would not be consistantly sharp and moving up as other people move to join them.
Yes, but PB is, I assume, talking about people thinking they are in tune but not recognising they are a bit sharp.
There is a narrow interval, less than 5 or 10 cents, in which I cannot consciously distinguish between timbre and in tuneness unless I can hear beats and usually don't know in which direction I am wrong in. Lack of ear training maybe, I could probably learn. BUT in that same range, if I can hear properly, I automatically adjust in the right direction to make it sound right. Outside that range I can hear that the intonation is rubbish.
So I suspect that if I am trying to hear myself I may play sharp, feeling that I am acheiving a different timbre.
Pity the poor bloody harmonica player (he said, providing God know what openings to God knows whom). All the gob-irons I've ever bought have at least been pitched above A441 and occasionally up to A444. The rationale that notes go a bit flat when you play is just rubbish, as this would vary considerably according to the embouchure and force of the player, whether the notes are blows or draws, whether the notes are high or low and which end of the harp (in the case of diatonics) you're playing. No fine-tuning scheme could accommodate all that lot. On top of this, most modern instruments are either in equal temperament or in one of several other fine-tunings between ET and Just intonation. A few are actually in JI and they sound terrible alongside instruments tuned with cheapie tuners or differently-tuned fixed-pitch instruments, the third note of the scale sounding horribly flat, to take but one example. I've had fiddle players asking me for a note to tune to. What a can of worms. I always refuse!
I don't know about auto-tuned instruments, but you can tell when pop singers have been run through autotuner - they sound far too good to be true, and intensely artificial. Autotuner is, imo, the second major invention of the devil.
The fundamental problem with auto-tuning a voice or instrument track in a recording is that the ensemble is unlikely to be able reproduce the sound of the cd live on stage.
Mercifully, there are still some bands around who insist on recording live in the studio, with no post-dubbing or editing (and certainly no auto-tuning), so what you get on cd is what you get when you hear them live on stage. Bands of that standard are good enough to record a cd with no more than one or two takes per track.
No one I know has ever ran their whistle through autotune. It would sound horrible, not like a whistle at all. The main thing that's put on whistles is bags and bags of compression. horrid.
Folk music using autotune? That is absolute rubbish. It's folk music, people. You're just going to have to deal with a little out-of-tune instrumentation and "oops" bits. When I listen to recordings of the greats, Planxty, Bothy, etc., there is some of that, and it should be.
Now, as for sharpness getting out of hand at a session, yes, that's frustrating. In my rock and roll days, that was never a problem because in order to be heard you just reached over and bumped up the ol' volume knob, which leads to a different sort of problem. Before you know it, the next person to open the door gets blown backwards from the hurricane of sound. Plus there's the hearing loss.
Somone also mentioned electronic tuners. Personally, I love the clip on tuners. I can adjust my mando without having to annoy the rest of the session by trying to hear my tuning.
What intonation does auto-tune tune to? I don't think singers have any business being in equal temperament (I have terrible intonation, but even I can hear the piano chords are not perfect intervals)
It tunes to anything you want it to and can tune whichever notes in the scale you want it to. It was designed for singers and you can be sure that is where it's used most.
Yes, Bogman is right. In a basic sense it takes the note that a singer/player is closest to and electronically corrects it to perfect pitch. It's one of the worst things to happen to music, IMHO. If it's used for a certain effect, I have no problem with it. An example is that Cher song where she has the robotic voice effect. That uses autotune software, and it's used to create a certain effect. But for the purposes of correcting pitch problems, it absolutely saps the soul out of music.
@Jimmy B "In my rock and roll days, that was never a problem because in order to be heard you just reached over and bumped up the ol' volume knob,"
Hmmm ... and in *my* rock 'n' roll days, it was the guitarist who went sharp all the time. You can hear it now with some of the guitarists who tune by ear. They start at the bottom of the instrument, on the bottom E string, and get that in tune, and tune the rest of the strings to it. Now, the trouble is, most guitars require the bottom E to be a bit flat, so if you start with that one in tune, the rest are going to be sharp. It's often made worse by the fact that, having tuned the rest of the strings a bit sharper, they then go back and tune the bottom string 'in tune' with the others, and start on a vicious circle which leads ever upwards.
Still, that's just guitarists. Meh. I still think it's the fllutes are the main culprits. (Although if I could conceivably blame bodhráns, I would.)
I was just trying to imagine what Billy Holiday would sound like auto-tuned. No, thanks. As for electronic tuners, I use mine often to get roughly close, but find that A and E (on GDAE tuned instruments) always sound a little flat, so I adjust slightly upward. I suspect that is because the intervals between the notes, as measured by the tuner, are not, in fact, perfect fifths. Is that so?
Well, go on then ethical blend, what should be done about it ? The flutes I mean. Before I spend too much time out there annoying people. But then, maybe I should be asking a fiddler.
More about sessions being either in tune or not ~ rather than everyone sharp;
Our session was wonderfully in tune 2 weeks ago. It almost didn't happen. At the beginning, someone (who has been known to say tuning tires her), proclaimed; "close enough!" She wasn't (close enough). The good news is our 1st tune was so painful we all stopped & tuned to each other. This did not take long since we had a fairly small session. The rest of the tunes were grand. It helped remind me why I play sessions.
Last night the number of players more than doubled. A few of us managed to tune to each other. But overall the session (when everyone played) did not have the same intonation of two weeks prior.
I like small sessions.
Will, in equal temperment the 5th s have to be a little flat and the 3rds have to be a little sharp from where they are in the natural overtone series
electronic tuners just have a specific frequency they are looking for
so you are hearing the difference in the reenforceing harmonic overtone which is not quite the same as the tempered frequency. its close, but that's why our 12 tone equal tempered system is called a tempered tuning system
david_h, I freely admit I don't know the answer. 'S partly why I asked the question. I really don't know. I'm more curious than anything. Not particularly upset by it ... unless there happens to be a friend playing box in the middle of the mayhem ...
As for asking a fiddler ... do they talk to fluters?
I always go to the session with my flutist friend, and I play fiddle mostly. I would say playing with her helps keep me in tune as she has a very good ear and does indeed adjust her tuning regularly.
ethical blend: "I still think it's the fllutes are the main culprits."
There may be some validity to this suspicion, eb. It may have something to do with the caliber of the flute player - and I'm not necessarily talking about just the obvious stuff like a well-trained ear, etc.
In my personal situation, if I go through a period of reduced playing time, my embouchure quality degrades to a loose, fleshy embouchure, and my intonation goes sharp. When I play with a tight, well-formed, firm embouchure, my intonation is much improved. If your session has fluters that have not yet spent hundreds of hours playing, to have developed good embouchure strength & quality, then they could very well be the culprits in "sharpening" your session.
There are two ways to get good tone & volume out of a flute: 1) good tight, strong, firm embouchure; 2) blow harder. You would be correct in surmising that the latter is more likely to result in bad intonation, i.e., sharpness.
I found this, and think it worth copying:
There are two systems on which we will work: Equal Temperament and Just Intonation.
• Equal Temperament - When composers began to write music in more keys long ago, they ran into trouble because the further they went from the basic keys, the more out of tune the music got. The solution for keyboard instruments was to divide the octave into twelve equally spaced intervals....this is called Equal Temperament. By doing this, all keys could be played in, although they were all equally slightly out of tune with the natural scales our ears settle upon. Electronic tuners are set to Equal Temperament. Wind instruments are made to approximate Equal Temperament, and it is the only reasonable standard for melodic playing. But it is not enough, the ear being the final authority. We need......
• Just Intonation - This is what our ears hear to be correct beatless intervals when playing together with other players. Beats are the pulsations we hear when two notes are out of tune. To keep it simple, let's look at only two intervals: a major third (C and E) and a minor third (C and Eb). To be pure, the top note of a major third needs to be 14 cents LOWER than what the tuner registers as the correct pitch. And, the top note of a minor third needs to be 16 cents HIGHER than the tuner's correct pitch.
o Do you see why it is good to be able to play notes with flexibility?
o Some tuners even have markings on the face where these higher or lower notes should be. The Korg Chromatic Tuner CA-30 is one.
o Here is where another device comes in - the tuner pick up. I have had good luck with the Arion ARC-80. It plugs into the input plug in the tuner. It has a device that clips gently to your instrument and picks up only the sound it is making without interference from outside sounds. This means you can listen to a sound like a keyboard, fellow player, or tuning CD while watching the tuner record your actual pitch. This allows you to tune the intervals to Just Intonation and see the effects of changing your pitch. Try it. Play an E against an outside C pitch and adjust your pitch until it is about 14 cents lower. Can you hear the pureness of it?
The author is John Gibson, from his Advanced Intonation Technique for Clarinetists.
Its the, apparently common, undetected bias to being sharp of the ensemble that bothers me. I think I could do that. Fluters are a bit low on energy in the higher harmonics, an octave lower than some instruments, and have resonances in their heads, all of which may make it hard to hear from behind the flute. Maybe fiddlers don't talk to n00bs. (probably crossing, got logged off)
"Our current equal-temperment system of intonation is obviously convenient, but this convenience has been bought at a price.
The price is that the scale doesn’t sound right to a musically sensitive person. For example, it is nearly impossible for a musician to tune a piano, because the “correct” notes don’t sound exactly right.
In fact, three of the eight notes in a one-octave diatonic, equal-temperment scale vary between 14 and 19 cents from the same notes in the musician’s scale of Just intonation.
Also, as an orchestra tunes by ear to an A440 pitch on the oboe, the string section tunes their instruments by ear (no tuners) by listening for perfect fifths between the strings, and somehow the whole orchestra comes together and sounds in-tune to the listener. But actually there are many variations in pitch that are not perceived by the listener.
Because of variations in attack strength and embouchure, the side-blown flute is especially vulnerable to frequency fluctuations, and frequency fluctuations up to 4 per cent have been observed, even among concert musicians.
I can play my Irish flute in front of an electronic tuner and have the needle swing from 20 cents below to 20 cents above standard pitch just by the way I blow and the way I shape my lips (embouchure)." http://dougsflutes.googlepages.com/flutebuyer%27sguide [*Doug Tipple]
Did cross, and I don't think my experience fits with what browndog suggests. So far as I can tell from recording myself my intonation is no worse on a 'bad embouchure day' and a recorder running in my top pocket at a session suggests I may tend to start off sharp and then the bias goes as I settle down more with the tune and what is going on around me.
All the talk of intonation and temper is all very well and perfectly valid in it's place but we're talking about sessions here. Unless everyone at your session happens to be called Tommy Peoples then getting a solid note from a tuner is the way to go for me. An onus should be on the string players to keep tuning to concert pitch.
It is no help to a flute player or whatever to keep tuning up if they are playing sharp because it's never going to help them hear their problem. Fixed instruments that should be set up to concert before the session like pipes etc need others to play at concert or it's a nightmare.
There seems to be a school of thought whereby the nightmarish quality is a good thing. Foul is fair, or something like that. At any rate, they militantly don't want to be lumped with conventional music.
Bogman, you are correct about tuning to fixed pitch instruments, when 1 or more is present. I still think it helps, just a little, to at least play a session in just intonation ~ sans box. Apologies to all who push buttons & squeeze. ;)
"... the nightmarish quality is a good thing ..."
In the days before equal temperament (i.e. before JS Bach) and keyboard instruments were tuned in just temperament in C, the keys of G, F, D and B-flat (1 and 2 sharps or flats) were close enough in tuning not to be a problem. The more sharps or flats used beyond those keys made tuning worse and worse. However, some composers would occasionally use this phenomenon to advantage by writing a very emotional or dramatic scene in a remote key like B major or F# minor. These little special effects were ruined by the advent of equal temperament
"Fixed instruments that should be set up to concert ..."
If by fixed instruments is meant the 2-rows and concertinas I don't see how this is possible, although most of them do indeed seem to be tuned to A440 - although a tutor at a dance band workshop I attended some months ago apologised to all the PA players present for his Italian PA being tuned 25 cents sharp on concert pitch!
Can we clarify ? Taking the fundamental as a reference point the notes in just intonation that are *very* different are all flat. So is the suggestion that our fluter, who's F# in the kitchen is F# 14 cents flat, plays sharp to 'split the difference', leaving the F# and others a bit flat but pushing his D, G and A sharp ? Is one answer for the fluter to focus on the box, fretted instruments or the open strings of the fiddle ? And practice playing in ET at home. (but I like playing over drones !)
In August I attended the finals of the International Harp Competition at the O'Carolan Festival in Keadu. The half dozen finalists had evidently done all their main tuning in the green room beforehand, carrying out a final check by ear when they brought their harp on stage. Except for one who tuned her harp on stage with an electronic tuner. Oh dear! - in the hall eyebrows were raised, heads turned, whispering … When she played, her harp was significantly out of tune compared with the others (which were perfectly in tune), and this was mentioned by the adjudicator who generally made detailed constructive comments about each competitor. Not surprisingly, that competitor did not get placed.
While the combination of uilleann pipes with equally tempered machines sounds terrible to some of us, it sounds delightful to some others -- you know who you are. Some of you will even go so far as to say that the one true sound we should all be aiming for is dissonance.
Whoah! Random! Just intonation = Bach/Mozart? Absolutely definitely not. I mean, I know "well-tempered" doesn't mean equal tempered, but it don't mean JI either. And JI, as a practice, was pretty much ruled out long before the Baroque. There were other temperament systems around ... but not JI, which was long known to be a problem.
One thing that is often said about many of the fine old players of memory, is that they would frequently just not make a big thing about discrepancies in intonation within a session.
The problem with tuning pipes before a session is that as soon as they get to the bloody session, they will respond to the heat, humidity, air pressure, voodoo, and karma of the pub and change tuning on you if they don't like it.
For example, I just spent four or five days playing in a pub where I swear there was no central heating (if there was, it definitely wasn't on) and the only way you didn't freeze was if the fire was burning in the fire place. Which was most of the time luckily but it never did get up to Florida levels of heat and humidity. The pipes played really well, were bang on in tune (or at least not out of tune enough for people to complain about it). I get them to the pub tonight, which had reached Florida levels of hear and humidity and spent half the night faffing with the reed trying to get them going as well as they had been in the other pub. I could have gotten them going in my friend's flat but so what? Wouldn't have helped.
Anyway, I like those recordings where there is a wee bit of dissonance.
Oh, and "in tune" and "tuning" are social constructs. So long as you and the people you are playing music with have kind of a collective agreement as to what those things are, then that's all that really matters.
TSS, you're right of course about the pipes being temperamental, but the distinction is that you've put the effort in to get them in D. Most times they will be in D when you get to the pub and if not a piper will do a quick fix by raising or lowering the reed. If a session keeps creeping sharper because everyone keeps tuning up it makes your efforts a bit disheartening.
Nothing is cut and dried. There are occasions that tuning up is fine. Like all the other instruments are tunable and the piper says " sorry guys, I'm having a nightmare with the heat, can we tune to the pipes" or "This was my grandads concertina but it's 30 cents sharp etc"
But I assume the original poster is talking about sessions going sharp through bad practice which is entirely different and if a few people have the guts to say something and improve their session as a result of this thread then that's something worth while.
Where can you buy Opporknockity strings? Do you have to special order them from a certain town in Germany where a famous pianist was going to perform but he didn't like the way the piano was tuned and the pianist asked the local piano tuner to re-tune the piano but the piano tuner refused?
Yes, Wyogal, I am joking (I am too old to be "kidding").
When you mentioned Opporknockity, I remembered the joke where I first heard that name many years ago.
"He with the most strings wins" which is trumped by "he with the most reeds wins". I have discovered a "lie detector"- called the Cherub at SouthwestStrings. It generates a reasonably loud "A" at 440. That's all it does, hangs on a keychain for festivals and is $4.95. This device usually reveals the "dishonest" tuner (electronic or human).
My preferred tuning device has grown to be somewhat unique; it works in the dark, doesn't use batteries and is ultra stable if you don't drop it. AKA a tuning fork, also available for $4.95!
Now to answer the question without say the obvious "because they are out of tune", I had to throw in one of my favorite quotes:
Hermann Von Helmholtz: On Equal Temperament- "And after all, I do not know that it was so necessary to sacrifice correctness of intonation to the convenience of musical instruments." gt
Why are sessions sharp?
Why are sessions sharp?
... well, unless you've got a box player ... and even then ...
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by ethical blend
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Because when there are lots of instruments and you can't hear yourself, going sharp makes your instrument stand out. This is why whistle and flute players go sharp. Then fiddles and such tune up to them. It gets out of control. I often play an A on my concertina between tunes sets hoping to have people tune back down.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Does it work?
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by ethical blend
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
it helps...
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Phantom Button
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Speaking as a fiddler, I think violin players have a natural tendency to "tune up".
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by sashiko calico
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Really? I thought, as PB implies, that it was the flutes?
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by ethical blend
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Flutes also get sharper as the main effect of warming up. So if tuned at the start of a session and then played, they will end up sharp. Also as the player gets more enthusiastic and blows harder/louder as the evening goes on, the flute will get sharper unless the player takes steps to correct it (lipping back down or pulling out the tuning slide). Same applies to the whistle.
I've rarely heard a properly in tune whistle anyway... The best that I know are quite close, but they just don't have the control to adjust to what their ears are hearing at any particular instant. Certainly when playing together with a whistle, I expect to be the one making tuning corrections, especially above the second octave G.
Interesting experience recently, playing the full rigged ship fairly slowly with one fiddler. I spent a lot of effort listening to her playing and making sure that my flute was in tune with whatever was coming out of the fiddle at that moment. Afterwards she said that I kept getting lower and lower and she was continually having to creep flatter to keep up with me! So obviously she and I have different images of what a flute and violin in tune together is meant to sound like! This doesn't happen with several other fiddlers that I regularly play that set with - could still be my fault though? I wish now that I'd recorded that set so that I could work it out.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Crackpot
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Well eb, I haven't been playing long, and I'm only speaking from personal experience (before playing in sessions even). The first problem with learning the violin is finding the notes and then trying to play them in tune. I think most people try to avoid sounding flat so probably end up being very slightly sharp.
I hadn't noticed sessions getting out of tune before. (But that doesn't mean anything !)The only instrument I'd noticed with a particular problem was the pipes, and that was usually because of the heat in the room. Sometimes the only solution was for we fiddles to tune down to him.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by sashiko calico
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Good sessions aren't sharp
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Good sessions aren't flat either
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by leoj
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Quite right. The question might as well be, "why are most sessions crap?"
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Post that as a discussion, won't you?
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by leoj
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
How far is tuning absolute and how far is it to do with each individual musician? Is it affected by the tone of the instrument? Do fiddles and whistles sounds sharper than reed instruments because they are "shriller"? Do musicians' perception of what's in tune change over the course of the evening? (Too many questions, I know)
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by sashiko calico
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Of course it's a subjective thing, that's why digital tuners sound out of tune. And a musician's perception of what's in tune changes as their ability grows
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
It's normal for any ensemble of instruments to go out of tune after a few minutes into playing. That's why orchestras have a quick re-tune after the first piece in a concert. Instruments take time to adjust to the ambient temperature (pubs get warmer as the evening goes on), and instruments warm up from the action of playing anyway.
A violin soloist with an orchestra would naturally tune to the sharpest instrument present.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Even the best orchestras compromise their tuning. It's impossible to get a hundred or so people with the same preferences for intonation.
Small ensembles are much better, string quartets for example. The best quartets have played together for many years and have developed their collective preferences for intonation colour over those years. People who've played diddley tunes together for years are the same.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
G'Day Michael, how are things in bonnie Scotland?
Tuning???? rubbish, the whole concept. Tune six guitars to the same tuning fork (or machine) and they will all sound different.
As the defendant said in the great aussie movie The Castle "It's a vibe"
I may not know much about music, but I know what I like.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by mcknowall
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Fretted instruments will never be in tune
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
So how do I detect that I am playing slightly sharp ? At the time.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by David50
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
I know quite a few musicians who like to play in Eb rather than D, etc. So box players have to adapt. Tommy Peoples etc record in those keys. I used to think the recordings had been speeded up to sound faster until I met folk in sessions who liked sharp or flat sessions. Sometimes using older boxes or pipes.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Michael Sam Wild
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
They shouldn't be, just tell the sharpys to tune up (down). Whistling sharp is just bad whistling. Crackpot, you are obviously playing with bad whistlers or whistlers with bad whistles. Sharp fiddling is bad fiddling too. No matter what opinions on tuners are, for a session give me at least someone with a clip on to get a solid A anytime. Out of tune sessions are as bad as out of time sessions, but should be much easier to deal with.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by bogman
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Sorry, cross post. Deliberately sharp or flat sessions are a different thing entirely.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by bogman
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Better "SHARP" than "DULL".
Sorry - it was there.
Cheers,
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Piece
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Does anyone else feel surprised at the number of musicians using electronic tuners in sessions?
I was a fiddler in the olden-days when a pitch-pipe with one note sufficed, and you tuned all strings to that and you could "feel" the strings being in tune, despite being in noisy, echoing spit'n'sawdust bars. (I also remember guitar and banjo players using the same method).
Are modern "musicians" idle or can't they "feel" when the instrument is in tune?
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by geoffwright
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
If memory serves me somone on this site observed that 'tuning is an ag reement between musicians'.
If you're bothering to listen to the other musicians in the session you'll know. Of course the environment will affect the instruments; I always find my fiddle gets 'sharp' when it gets warmed up in a pub or wherever. The sin is not doing anything about it. And yes, I own a tuner but it's only 'a start' - as geoffwright observes you 'know' when it sounds right.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by john knoss
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Are modern "musicians" idle or can't they "feel" when the instrument is in tune? - neither, in general.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by bogman
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
I don't know about other stringed instruments but fiddles definitely "ring" when they play a perfect perfect fifth - so I guess you could say you feel it when they are in tune.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by sashiko calico
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
@bogman: "Crackpot, you are obviously playing with bad whistlers or whistlers with bad whistles. " - no argument with you there bogman. But hey, that's who I've got in this neck of the woods. (Though most of the whistlers seem to be a bit dormant right now? Weather? Economic climate?)
And I remember speaking to a very good artist who blithely informed me that no one makes a professional CD these days with whistles on it without first running the whistle tracks through autotune... Can anyone out ther comment on how accurate this assessment is?
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Crackpot
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
If people are doing what Phantom Button says in the second post, then they clearly are listening otherwise they would not be consistantly sharp and moving up as other people move to join them.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by David50
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Still trying to play a bloody Overton in tune.
I keep the pipes in tune through prayer and sacrificing small animals. That's about the only thing that works.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Yes, but PB is, I assume, talking about people thinking they are in tune but not recognising they are a bit sharp.
There is a narrow interval, less than 5 or 10 cents, in which I cannot consciously distinguish between timbre and in tuneness unless I can hear beats and usually don't know in which direction I am wrong in. Lack of ear training maybe, I could probably learn. BUT in that same range, if I can hear properly, I automatically adjust in the right direction to make it sound right. Outside that range I can hear that the intonation is rubbish.
So I suspect that if I am trying to hear myself I may play sharp, feeling that I am acheiving a different timbre.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by David50
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Pity the poor bloody harmonica player (he said, providing God know what openings to God knows whom). All the gob-irons I've ever bought have at least been pitched above A441 and occasionally up to A444. The rationale that notes go a bit flat when you play is just rubbish, as this would vary considerably according to the embouchure and force of the player, whether the notes are blows or draws, whether the notes are high or low and which end of the harp (in the case of diatonics) you're playing. No fine-tuning scheme could accommodate all that lot. On top of this, most modern instruments are either in equal temperament or in one of several other fine-tunings between ET and Just intonation. A few are actually in JI and they sound terrible alongside instruments tuned with cheapie tuners or differently-tuned fixed-pitch instruments, the third note of the scale sounding horribly flat, to take but one example. I've had fiddle players asking me for a note to tune to. What a can of worms. I always refuse!
But we're all nice guys and we get by.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
When I said modern instruments there I was referring to modern harmonicas.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Steve Shaw
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Crackpot, the man for the comment you want may be Tony Hinnigan (http://www.thesession.org/members/display/22360).
I don't know about auto-tuned instruments, but you can tell when pop singers have been run through autotuner - they sound far too good to be true, and intensely artificial. Autotuner is, imo, the second major invention of the devil.
The fundamental problem with auto-tuning a voice or instrument track in a recording is that the ensemble is unlikely to be able reproduce the sound of the cd live on stage.
Mercifully, there are still some bands around who insist on recording live in the studio, with no post-dubbing or editing (and certainly no auto-tuning), so what you get on cd is what you get when you hear them live on stage. Bands of that standard are good enough to record a cd with no more than one or two takes per track.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
No one I know has ever ran their whistle through autotune. It would sound horrible, not like a whistle at all. The main thing that's put on whistles is bags and bags of compression. horrid.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by llig leahcim
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Folk music using autotune? That is absolute rubbish. It's folk music, people. You're just going to have to deal with a little out-of-tune instrumentation and "oops" bits. When I listen to recordings of the greats, Planxty, Bothy, etc., there is some of that, and it should be.
Now, as for sharpness getting out of hand at a session, yes, that's frustrating. In my rock and roll days, that was never a problem because in order to be heard you just reached over and bumped up the ol' volume knob, which leads to a different sort of problem. Before you know it, the next person to open the door gets blown backwards from the hurricane of sound. Plus there's the hearing loss.
Somone also mentioned electronic tuners. Personally, I love the clip on tuners. I can adjust my mando without having to annoy the rest of the session by trying to hear my tuning.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
What intonation does auto-tune tune to? I don't think singers have any business being in equal temperament (I have terrible intonation, but even I can hear the piano chords are not perfect intervals)
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Tirno
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
It tunes to anything you want it to and can tune whichever notes in the scale you want it to. It was designed for singers and you can be sure that is where it's used most.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by bogman
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Yes, Bogman is right. In a basic sense it takes the note that a singer/player is closest to and electronically corrects it to perfect pitch. It's one of the worst things to happen to music, IMHO. If it's used for a certain effect, I have no problem with it. An example is that Cher song where she has the robotic voice effect. That uses autotune software, and it's used to create a certain effect. But for the purposes of correcting pitch problems, it absolutely saps the soul out of music.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Jimmy B
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
@Jimmy B "In my rock and roll days, that was never a problem because in order to be heard you just reached over and bumped up the ol' volume knob,"
Hmmm ... and in *my* rock 'n' roll days, it was the guitarist who went sharp all the time. You can hear it now with some of the guitarists who tune by ear. They start at the bottom of the instrument, on the bottom E string, and get that in tune, and tune the rest of the strings to it. Now, the trouble is, most guitars require the bottom E to be a bit flat, so if you start with that one in tune, the rest are going to be sharp. It's often made worse by the fact that, having tuned the rest of the strings a bit sharper, they then go back and tune the bottom string 'in tune' with the others, and start on a vicious circle which leads ever upwards.
Still, that's just guitarists. Meh. I still think it's the fllutes are the main culprits. (Although if I could conceivably blame bodhráns, I would.)
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by ethical blend
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
I was just trying to imagine what Billy Holiday would sound like auto-tuned. No, thanks. As for electronic tuners, I use mine often to get roughly close, but find that A and E (on GDAE tuned instruments) always sound a little flat, so I adjust slightly upward. I suspect that is because the intervals between the notes, as measured by the tuner, are not, in fact, perfect fifths. Is that so?
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by will morgan
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Well, go on then ethical blend, what should be done about it ? The flutes I mean. Before I spend too much time out there annoying people. But then, maybe I should be asking a fiddler.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by David50
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
More about sessions being either in tune or not ~ rather than everyone sharp;
Our session was wonderfully in tune 2 weeks ago. It almost didn't happen. At the beginning, someone (who has been known to say tuning tires her), proclaimed; "close enough!" She wasn't (close enough). The good news is our 1st tune was so painful we all stopped & tuned to each other. This did not take long since we had a fairly small session. The rest of the tunes were grand. It helped remind me why I play sessions.
Last night the number of players more than doubled. A few of us managed to tune to each other. But overall the session (when everyone played) did not have the same intonation of two weeks prior.
I like small sessions.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Will, in equal temperment the 5th s have to be a little flat and the 3rds have to be a little sharp from where they are in the natural overtone series
electronic tuners just have a specific frequency they are looking for
so you are hearing the difference in the reenforceing harmonic overtone which is not quite the same as the tempered frequency. its close, but that's why our 12 tone equal tempered system is called a tempered tuning system
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Nate Ryan
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
david_h, I freely admit I don't know the answer. 'S partly why I asked the question. I really don't know. I'm more curious than anything. Not particularly upset by it ... unless there happens to be a friend playing box in the middle of the mayhem ...
As for asking a fiddler ... do they talk to fluters?
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by ethical blend
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Thanks, Nate - that clarifies things considerably.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by will morgan
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
eb, do fiddlers talk to fluters? I try but they've usually got their mouths full.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by sashiko calico
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
I always go to the session with my flutist friend, and I play fiddle mostly. I would say playing with her helps keep me in tune as she has a very good ear and does indeed adjust her tuning regularly.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
ethical blend: "I still think it's the fllutes are the main culprits."
There may be some validity to this suspicion, eb. It may have something to do with the caliber of the flute player - and I'm not necessarily talking about just the obvious stuff like a well-trained ear, etc.
In my personal situation, if I go through a period of reduced playing time, my embouchure quality degrades to a loose, fleshy embouchure, and my intonation goes sharp. When I play with a tight, well-formed, firm embouchure, my intonation is much improved. If your session has fluters that have not yet spent hundreds of hours playing, to have developed good embouchure strength & quality, then they could very well be the culprits in "sharpening" your session.
There are two ways to get good tone & volume out of a flute: 1) good tight, strong, firm embouchure; 2) blow harder. You would be correct in surmising that the latter is more likely to result in bad intonation, i.e., sharpness.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by browndog
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
...especially in the higher register...
...especially as a set progresses thru the second & third tunes, when embouchure endurance is essential...
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by browndog
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
I found this, and think it worth copying:
There are two systems on which we will work: Equal Temperament and Just Intonation.
• Equal Temperament - When composers began to write music in more keys long ago, they ran into trouble because the further they went from the basic keys, the more out of tune the music got. The solution for keyboard instruments was to divide the octave into twelve equally spaced intervals....this is called Equal Temperament. By doing this, all keys could be played in, although they were all equally slightly out of tune with the natural scales our ears settle upon. Electronic tuners are set to Equal Temperament. Wind instruments are made to approximate Equal Temperament, and it is the only reasonable standard for melodic playing. But it is not enough, the ear being the final authority. We need......
• Just Intonation - This is what our ears hear to be correct beatless intervals when playing together with other players. Beats are the pulsations we hear when two notes are out of tune. To keep it simple, let's look at only two intervals: a major third (C and E) and a minor third (C and Eb). To be pure, the top note of a major third needs to be 14 cents LOWER than what the tuner registers as the correct pitch. And, the top note of a minor third needs to be 16 cents HIGHER than the tuner's correct pitch.
o Do you see why it is good to be able to play notes with flexibility?
o Some tuners even have markings on the face where these higher or lower notes should be. The Korg Chromatic Tuner CA-30 is one.
o Here is where another device comes in - the tuner pick up. I have had good luck with the Arion ARC-80. It plugs into the input plug in the tuner. It has a device that clips gently to your instrument and picks up only the sound it is making without interference from outside sounds. This means you can listen to a sound like a keyboard, fellow player, or tuning CD while watching the tuner record your actual pitch. This allows you to tune the intervals to Just Intonation and see the effects of changing your pitch. Try it. Play an E against an outside C pitch and adjust your pitch until it is about 14 cents lower. Can you hear the pureness of it?
The author is John Gibson, from his Advanced Intonation Technique for Clarinetists.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by will morgan
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Its the, apparently common, undetected bias to being sharp of the ensemble that bothers me. I think I could do that. Fluters are a bit low on energy in the higher harmonics, an octave lower than some instruments, and have resonances in their heads, all of which may make it hard to hear from behind the flute. Maybe fiddlers don't talk to n00bs. (probably crossing, got logged off)
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by David50
Just Intonation
"Our current equal-temperment system of intonation is obviously convenient, but this convenience has been bought at a price.
The price is that the scale doesn’t sound right to a musically sensitive person. For example, it is nearly impossible for a musician to tune a piano, because the “correct” notes don’t sound exactly right.
In fact, three of the eight notes in a one-octave diatonic, equal-temperment scale vary between 14 and 19 cents from the same notes in the musician’s scale of Just intonation.
Also, as an orchestra tunes by ear to an A440 pitch on the oboe, the string section tunes their instruments by ear (no tuners) by listening for perfect fifths between the strings, and somehow the whole orchestra comes together and sounds in-tune to the listener. But actually there are many variations in pitch that are not perceived by the listener.
Because of variations in attack strength and embouchure, the side-blown flute is especially vulnerable to frequency fluctuations, and frequency fluctuations up to 4 per cent have been observed, even among concert musicians.
I can play my Irish flute in front of an electronic tuner and have the needle swing from 20 cents below to 20 cents above standard pitch just by the way I blow and the way I shape my lips (embouchure)."
http://dougsflutes.googlepages.com/flutebuyer%27sguide [*Doug Tipple]
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Did cross, and I don't think my experience fits with what browndog suggests. So far as I can tell from recording myself my intonation is no worse on a 'bad embouchure day' and a recorder running in my top pocket at a session suggests I may tend to start off sharp and then the bias goes as I settle down more with the tune and what is going on around me.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by David50
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
All the talk of intonation and temper is all very well and perfectly valid in it's place but we're talking about sessions here. Unless everyone at your session happens to be called Tommy Peoples then getting a solid note from a tuner is the way to go for me. An onus should be on the string players to keep tuning to concert pitch.
It is no help to a flute player or whatever to keep tuning up if they are playing sharp because it's never going to help them hear their problem. Fixed instruments that should be set up to concert before the session like pipes etc need others to play at concert or it's a nightmare.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by bogman
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Let's talk here so we have more time in session.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
There seems to be a school of thought whereby the nightmarish quality is a good thing. Foul is fair, or something like that. At any rate, they militantly don't want to be lumped with conventional music.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Bogman, you are correct about tuning to fixed pitch instruments, when 1 or more is present. I still think it helps, just a little, to at least play a session in just intonation ~ sans box. Apologies to all who push buttons & squeeze. ;)
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
"... the nightmarish quality is a good thing ..."
In the days before equal temperament (i.e. before JS Bach) and keyboard instruments were tuned in just temperament in C, the keys of G, F, D and B-flat (1 and 2 sharps or flats) were close enough in tuning not to be a problem. The more sharps or flats used beyond those keys made tuning worse and worse. However, some composers would occasionally use this phenomenon to advantage by writing a very emotional or dramatic scene in a remote key like B major or F# minor. These little special effects were ruined by the advent of equal temperament
"Fixed instruments that should be set up to concert ..."
If by fixed instruments is meant the 2-rows and concertinas I don't see how this is possible, although most of them do indeed seem to be tuned to A440 - although a tutor at a dance band workshop I attended some months ago apologised to all the PA players present for his Italian PA being tuned 25 cents sharp on concert pitch!
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Just Intonation ~ Bach, Mozart
Equal Temperament ~ Beethoven
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Ben Steen
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Can we clarify ? Taking the fundamental as a reference point the notes in just intonation that are *very* different are all flat. So is the suggestion that our fluter, who's F# in the kitchen is F# 14 cents flat, plays sharp to 'split the difference', leaving the F# and others a bit flat but pushing his D, G and A sharp ? Is one answer for the fluter to focus on the box, fretted instruments or the open strings of the fiddle ? And practice playing in ET at home. (but I like playing over drones !)
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by David50
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
In August I attended the finals of the International Harp Competition at the O'Carolan Festival in Keadu. The half dozen finalists had evidently done all their main tuning in the green room beforehand, carrying out a final check by ear when they brought their harp on stage. Except for one who tuned her harp on stage with an electronic tuner. Oh dear! - in the hall eyebrows were raised, heads turned, whispering … When she played, her harp was significantly out of tune compared with the others (which were perfectly in tune), and this was mentioned by the adjudicator who generally made detailed constructive comments about each competitor. Not surprisingly, that competitor did not get placed.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
While the combination of uilleann pipes with equally tempered machines sounds terrible to some of us, it sounds delightful to some others -- you know who you are. Some of you will even go so far as to say that the one true sound we should all be aiming for is dissonance.
# Posted on October 7th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Whoah! Random! Just intonation = Bach/Mozart? Absolutely definitely not. I mean, I know "well-tempered" doesn't mean equal tempered, but it don't mean JI either. And JI, as a practice, was pretty much ruled out long before the Baroque. There were other temperament systems around ... but not JI, which was long known to be a problem.
Meanwhile, Browndog: "tight, well-formed, firm" ... ooh! I've gone all shivery ...
# Posted on October 8th 2009 by ethical blend
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
One thing that is often said about many of the fine old players of memory, is that they would frequently just not make a big thing about discrepancies in intonation within a session.
# Posted on October 8th 2009 by Atahualpa Quigley
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
lol
# Posted on October 8th 2009 by browndog
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
The problem with tuning pipes before a session is that as soon as they get to the bloody session, they will respond to the heat, humidity, air pressure, voodoo, and karma of the pub and change tuning on you if they don't like it.
For example, I just spent four or five days playing in a pub where I swear there was no central heating (if there was, it definitely wasn't on) and the only way you didn't freeze was if the fire was burning in the fire place. Which was most of the time luckily but it never did get up to Florida levels of heat and humidity. The pipes played really well, were bang on in tune (or at least not out of tune enough for people to complain about it). I get them to the pub tonight, which had reached Florida levels of hear and humidity and spent half the night faffing with the reed trying to get them going as well as they had been in the other pub. I could have gotten them going in my friend's flat but so what? Wouldn't have helped.
Anyway, I like those recordings where there is a wee bit of dissonance.
# Posted on October 8th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Oh, and "in tune" and "tuning" are social constructs. So long as you and the people you are playing music with have kind of a collective agreement as to what those things are, then that's all that really matters.
# Posted on October 8th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
My fiddle is in tune as long as I don't mess with the pegs.
# Posted on October 8th 2009 by Earl Cameron
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
TSS, you're right of course about the pipes being temperamental, but the distinction is that you've put the effort in to get them in D. Most times they will be in D when you get to the pub and if not a piper will do a quick fix by raising or lowering the reed. If a session keeps creeping sharper because everyone keeps tuning up it makes your efforts a bit disheartening.
Nothing is cut and dried. There are occasions that tuning up is fine. Like all the other instruments are tunable and the piper says " sorry guys, I'm having a nightmare with the heat, can we tune to the pipes" or "This was my grandads concertina but it's 30 cents sharp etc"
But I assume the original poster is talking about sessions going sharp through bad practice which is entirely different and if a few people have the guts to say something and improve their session as a result of this thread then that's something worth while.
# Posted on October 8th 2009 by bogman
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Aye, I usually do a couple ritual sacrifices to the gods of concert pitch before a session.
# Posted on October 8th 2009 by DrSilverSpear
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Yes, and luckily as we all know they live in the stomach. A couple of pints sacrifice doesn't go amiss.
# Posted on October 8th 2009 by bogman
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
get some Opporknockity strings, you only tune once...
# Posted on October 8th 2009 by wyogal
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Where can you buy Opporknockity strings? Do you have to special order them from a certain town in Germany where a famous pianist was going to perform but he didn't like the way the piano was tuned and the pianist asked the local piano tuner to re-tune the piano but the piano tuner refused?
# Posted on October 8th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
you're kidding, right?
# Posted on October 8th 2009 by wyogal
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Yes, Wyogal, I am joking (I am too old to be "kidding").
When you mentioned Opporknockity, I remembered the joke where I first heard that name many years ago.
# Posted on October 8th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
"He with the most strings wins" which is trumped by "he with the most reeds wins". I have discovered a "lie detector"- called the Cherub at SouthwestStrings. It generates a reasonably loud "A" at 440. That's all it does, hangs on a keychain for festivals and is $4.95. This device usually reveals the "dishonest" tuner (electronic or human).
My preferred tuning device has grown to be somewhat unique; it works in the dark, doesn't use batteries and is ultra stable if you don't drop it. AKA a tuning fork, also available for $4.95!
Now to answer the question without say the obvious "because they are out of tune", I had to throw in one of my favorite quotes:
Hermann Von Helmholtz: On Equal Temperament- "And after all, I do not know that it was so necessary to sacrifice correctness of intonation to the convenience of musical instruments." gt
# Posted on October 11th 2009 by fiddlins_fun
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
. . . could it be that they're only not flat?
# Posted on October 17th 2009 by lisaniska
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Are you trying to flatten us all with your answer, Lisaniska?
# Posted on October 19th 2009 by fauxcelt
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
how can i flatten the flattened?
i tell you i would need some special 'flattening hammer' to flatten the flattened flattener
. . . well tie me to an ant hill and smear my ears with jam
# Posted on October 20th 2009 by lisaniska
Re: Why are sessions sharp?
Sometimes B#
Never Bb
Always Bnat
Don't let yourself Bº
# Posted on December 24th 2009 by Bren